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  1. #1

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    Hello, I'm a Pagan

    I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a Pagan, and look forward to some interesting religious discussions. What does Islam say about Paganism?

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    أبو حمزة Salman Al-Farsi's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    You may want to raise this discussion in the comparative religion forum for some healthy input/output.
    "The objective behind Shari'ah is to liberate individuals from his desires in order to be a true Abd (slave) of Allah and that is the legitimate Maslaha... Violating the Shari'ah under the pretext of following Maqasid al-Shari'ah is like the one who cares about the spirit without the body and since the body without the spirit is useless therefore the spirit without the body is useless too." ~ Imam Shatibi - The greatest intellectual founder of Maqasid al-Shari'ah

  3. #3

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a Pagan, and look forward to some interesting religious discussions. What does Islam say about Paganism?
    Okay, will do.

  4. #4
    Da'wah or hijra -MA-'s Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    What does a pagan do then?

    Is it still like the pagans of old who used to walk around naked, bury babies, have incestious relationships etc?

  5. #5

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by -MA- View Post
    What does a pagan do then?

    Is it still like the pagans of old who used to walk around naked, bury babies, have incestious relationships etc?
    No, and I'm not sure they ever really did that either, unless you believe the propaganda of their enemies.

  6. #6
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    I'm new here so I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm a Pagan, and look forward to some interesting religious discussions. What does Islam say about Paganism?
    I used to be a pagan a long time ago. Islam says there's One God. Attributing partners to Allah (other gods, intermediaries between Allah and humans, etc) is shirk and is a sin that won't be forgiven without repentance (other sins may be IF Allah wills, but you can't bank on it so it's better to repent from all sins).

    As to how Muslims should act towards pagans.... well same as other non Muslims, if you're not trying to attack us or drive us from our homes the we deal with you justly Muhammad made treaties with various pagan tribes that were around when Islam started. So long as the treaties were honoured, they were dealt with peacefully. Bear in mind that the pagans around at the time of Muhammad were a lot more aggressive/bloodthirsty than the pagans that are around today. For example they used to bury baby girls alive because they preferred baby boys, and they used to torture their slaves for fun.

    What kind of pagan are you? (by that i mean, e.g. druid, wiccan, heathen etc)
    Last edited by dhak1yya; 24-12-10 at 05:38 PM.





  7. #7
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    No, and I'm not sure they ever really did that either, unless you believe the propaganda of their enemies.
    lol they did...... "pagan" covers such a huge span of people, from the beginning of humanity and all around the world, those who believe in more than one god, those who worship nature.... surely you're not telling me that you believe no-one from any of those groups of people, ever did those things? cause they did.... burying babies, well the pagans at the time of Muhammad did that.... walking around naked: people in earlier times did that, some people in the world today still do that (including western neopagans actually, like the wiccans in their rites), incestuous relationships, well the ancient Egyptians did that.... they're all pagan....

    I don't believe that modern pagans do that, apart frmo the rituals in the nude bit.





  8. #8

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    I used to be a pagan a long time ago. Islam says there's One God. Attributing partners to Allah (other gods, intermediaries between Allah and humans, etc) is shirk and is a sin that won't be forgiven without repentance (other sins may be IF Allah wills, but you can't bank on it so it's better to repent from all sins).

    As to how Muslims should act towards pagans.... well same as other non Muslims, if you're not trying to attack us or drive us from our homes the we deal with you justly Muhammad made treaties with various pagan tribes that were around when Islam started. So long as the treaties were honoured, they were dealt with peacefully. Bear in mind that the pagans around at the time of Muhammad were a lot more aggressive/bloodthirsty than the pagans that are around today. For example they used to bury baby girls alive because they preferred baby boys, and they used to torture their slaves for fun.

    What kind of pagan are you?
    Pagans honour girls and grant them high status. See, for example, this institution which I helped to found:

    http://frya.angelfire.com/

  9. #9
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Pagans honour girls and grant them high status. See, for example, this institution which I helped to found:

    http://frya.angelfire.com/
    I know all about modern paganism, I used to be one. So showing me your website based on your definitions of paganism isn't going to change what I said. "pagan" is a VERY wide term that encompasses MANY extremely diverse groups of people. It does NOT represent a single religion with a single defined set of beliefs. As such, you can't say that ALL pagans believe as you do, you can only speak for yourself and your group, who, I'm sure don't do nasty things to babies. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Arabian pagans who lived in Arabia at the time when Islam started used to bury baby girls, because they did do that. There is PLENTY of historical evidence for that, and even modern pagans who value intellectual integrity will not try to deny that, or any other bad things that some other group of pagans did at some point in human history. What they will say is that THEIR group doesn't do that, and that THEY don't believe that. You don't even speak for all modern pagans.

    What kind of pagan are you? wiccan, druid, heathen, thelemite, dianic, chaote, seax.....? fluffy......? Do you spell magick with or without a k?





  10. #10

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    I know all about modern paganism, I used to be one. So showing me your website based on your definitions of paganism isn't going to change what I said. "pagan" is a VERY wide term that encompasses MANY extremely diverse groups of people. It does NOT represent a single religion with a single defined set of beliefs. As such, you can't say that ALL pagans believe as you do, you can only speak for yourself and your group, who, I'm sure don't do nasty things to babies. However, that doesn't change the fact that the Arabian pagans who lived in Arabia at the time when Islam started used to bury baby girls, because they did do that. There is PLENTY of historical evidence for that, and even modern pagans who value intellectual integrity will not try to deny that, or any other bad things that some other group of pagans did at some point in human history. What they will say is that THEIR group doesn't do that, and that THEY don't believe that. You don't even speak for all modern pagans.

    What kind of pagan are you? wiccan, druid, heathen, thelemite, dianic, chaote, seax.....? fluffy......? Do you spell magick with or without a k?
    I spell magic how it should be spelt, and I would describe myself as a Heathen.

    What Pagans used to do thousands of years ago is ireelevant, because unlike religions of the book, Paganism evolves.

  11. #11
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    I spell magic how it should be spelt, and I would describe myself as a Heathen.

    What Pagans used to do thousands of years ago is ireelevant, because unlike religions of the book, Paganism evolves.
    that's what I've been trying to get you to admit *applauses* thank you. Your beliefs are not evolved from those of the pre-Islamic or pre-Christian pagans though, because modern paganism has a HUGE influence from both Christianity and Islam.

    Do you practice magic(k)? What Heathen gods do you worship (or honour)?





  12. #12

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    that's what I've been trying to get you to admit *applauses* thank you. Your beliefs are not evolved from those of the pre-Islamic or pre-Christian pagans though, because modern paganism has a HUGE influence from both Christianity and Islam.

    Do you practice magic(k)? What Heathen gods do you worship (or honour)?
    Modern Heathenism is derived from the pre-Christian practices of Northern Europe. It may well have Christian influences, but certainly no Muslim ones. The gods I venerate are those of the Anglo-Saxons.

  13. #13
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Modern Heathenism is derived from the pre-Christian practices of Northern Europe. It may well have Christian influences, but certainly no Muslim ones. The gods I venerate are those of the Anglo-Saxons.
    name them please

    given that the various northern europeans traded with the Muslims, I doubt that there are no Muslim influences whatsoever. Have you seen the film "the thirteenth warrior"? It's based on the writings of ibn fadhlan, a Muslim writer.





  14. #14

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    name them please

    given that the various northern europeans traded with the Muslims, I doubt that there are no Muslim influences whatsoever. Have you seen the film "the thirteenth warrior"? It's based on the writings of ibn fadhlan, a Muslim writer.
    Islam didn't even exist when the Anglo-Saxons were still Pagan, so there cannot have been any Muslim influences.

    There are many gods and goddesses - important ones include Frya, Wodin, Thyr, and many others.

  15. #15

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Is father Christmas a pagan god too? And what about the snowman?

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    name them please

    given that the various northern europeans traded with the Muslims, I doubt that there are no Muslim influences whatsoever. Have you seen the film "the thirteenth warrior"? It's based on the writings of ibn fadhlan, a Muslim writer.
    I recon ustad antonio banderas is so Hot in that film .

  17. #17
    Da'wah or hijra -MA-'s Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    ^ What is wrong with you?

  18. #18

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by -MA- View Post
    ^ What is wrong with you?
    Lots of things, but let's not go there.

  19. #19
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Islam didn't even exist when the Anglo-Saxons were still Pagan, so there cannot have been any Muslim influences.

    There are many gods and goddesses - important ones include Frya, Wodin, Thyr, and many others.
    The Anglo-saxons were converted between 597 and 686, Islam started during this time, not after this time. Ibn Fadhan's writings were about vikings rather than anglo-saxons, who were still pagan in the 10th century when he was writing, and the Muslims were trading extensively with them at this time. I strongly recommend you watch the movie "the 13th warrior" but please bear in mind like any movie they're not all that fussed about accuracy, so for a true picture you'd need to read a translation of ibn fadhlan's writings.

    As for when i said Muslim influence, I was referrring to the modern interpretation of paganism/heathenism. there is no unbroken tradition between ancient and modern paganism in Europe. Modern heathenism therefore will have influence from both Christianity and Islam as well as the writings such as beowulf and the eddas, neither of which predate Islam. beowulf dates from the 8th-11th century and the eddas were written down in the 13th century but contained materials from earlier sources, but are unlikely to predate the 9th century. So the sources upon which modern heathenism takes heavy influence from didn't predate Islam. Early heathenism, both anglo[saxon and viking, of course did predate Islam.

    source: my husband who has MAs in this kind of topic.





  20. #20
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsalan View Post
    I recon ustad antonio banderas is so Hot in that film .


    well obviously Muslims would do better to just skip the movie and go directly to Ibn fadhlan's writings, in Arabic.





  21. #21

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    I remember a professor telling me once that Beowulf is famous because it survived. His assumption was that dozens of other epics, possibly going back a thousand years or more, did not survive, which fact gives us a very narrow vision of Northern history and literature.

  22. #22

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    The Anglo-saxons were converted between 597 and 686, Islam started during this time, not after this time. Ibn Fadhan's writings were about vikings rather than anglo-saxons, who were still pagan in the 10th century when he was writing, and the Muslims were trading extensively with them at this time. I strongly recommend you watch the movie "the 13th warrior" but please bear in mind like any movie they're not all that fussed about accuracy, so for a true picture you'd need to read a translation of ibn fadhlan's writings.

    As for when i said Muslim influence, I was referrring to the modern interpretation of paganism/heathenism. there is no unbroken tradition between ancient and modern paganism in Europe. Modern heathenism therefore will have influence from both Christianity and Islam as well as the writings such as beowulf and the eddas, neither of which predate Islam. beowulf dates from the 8th-11th century and the eddas were written down in the 13th century but contained materials from earlier sources, but are unlikely to predate the 9th century. So the sources upon which modern heathenism takes heavy influence from didn't predate Islam. Early heathenism, both anglo[saxon and viking, of course did predate Islam.

    source: my husband who has MAs in this kind of topic.
    Whilst Heathensim has certainly had Christian influence, I know of no Islamic influence on it. Unless you can point me to a specific example.

  23. #23
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Whilst Heathensim has certainly had Christian influence, I know of no Islamic influence on it. Unless you can point me to a specific example.
    Nothing specific to heathenism that I know of. Most of the Islamic influences I've found affect things like knights templar, rosicrucianism, qaballah, freemasonry, thelema, wicca etc - however the modern heathenism revival has come from a general revival of paganism that dates back at least to Crowley and no doubt before that. Crowley was heavily influenced by Islam having lived and travelled through Arab lands extensively, though he wouldn't admit to it. Also some of the mediaeval Christian ideas, and renaissance ideas were influenced by Islam, and these influenced the revival of paganism. I was disagreeing with your point that there was *no* influence from Islam at all, because Islamic ideas spread through all of Europe, and they were also carried back by crusaders who returned from the holy lands. Then you have the influence on people like Crowley, crowley practically co-founded wicca with Gerald Gardener, and the wiccan rede is merely a watered down version of the law of thelema. You can't say that these things have not influenced modern Heathenism in the slightest, because they are part of the same revival. Although you have some genuine old sources of heathenism such as beowulf and the eddas, something else had filled in the gaps, and there's quite a lot of similarities between heathenism and wicca, druidism etc. All these modern revivals have influenced each other, and they've all had some influence from Islam (mainly sufi ideas).
    Last edited by dhak1yya; 24-12-10 at 07:15 PM.





  24. #24
    Its fine, take a 38mm noobz's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    how many gods do pagan believes in? ... is it something like portrayed int the movie 'clash of the titans' ?




  25. #25
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wulf View Post
    Whilst Heathensim has certainly had Christian influence, I know of no Islamic influence on it. Unless you can point me to a specific example.
    If i am not wrong then the term heathen refers to the person who believes in the religion other than Islam,Christianity and Judaism.So if you are referring to paganism, then it covers many different religions who have made their own some or the other whims in it.Like the pagans of Chinese who worship dragon, or the pagans of India who worship cow or the pagans of Tibet who worship nature or the pagans of Mexico (Indians) who worship air or other elements.

    So be specific in what you believe by saying that you believe in paganism.
    صلى الله على حبيبه محمد و على آله و أصحابه و سلم
    Al-Muslimeen

  26. #26
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    in modern pagan terms, heathen is used to mean someone who follows the old Teutonic gods, e.g. those of the vikings, anglo-saxons. you are correct about the general meaning of the word heathen though.





  27. #27
    alfi salella alel madani ahmed_abdullah's Avatar
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    in modern pagan terms, heathen is used to mean someone who follows the old Teutonic gods, e.g. those of the vikings, anglo-saxons. you are correct about the general meaning of the word heathen though.
    Jazakallah khair.

    It is a very very old religion where in those times people used to invent some god or gods or the other just to keep people under control.Another psychological policy by the kings to keep their people in control just like in later ages of pharaoh.
    صلى الله على حبيبه محمد و على آله و أصحابه و سلم
    Al-Muslimeen

  28. #28
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmed_abdullah View Post
    Jazakallah khair.

    It is a very very old religion where in those times people used to invent some god or gods or the other just to keep people under control.Another psychological policy by the kings to keep their people in control just like in later ages of pharaoh.
    the modern revival of paganism is a little different, it's rather more of a rebellion against Christianity and atheism in modern western society. As people have abandoned Christianity, and atheism has predominated, people who are not satisfied with atheism, but can see many flaws in Christianity, have been drawn to pagan ideas, and there has been a modern revival. However the modern religion of paganism (and all its varieties/branches) is not like the old paganism. As I've said there's influence in them from both Islam and Christianity, and many other ideas that have come about since the pre-Christian and pre-Islamic era in Europe, and many unethical practices from pre-Christain europe have been rejected. Also the modern pagan revival include religions such as thelema that are modern inventions, although they have been influenced by other traditions; thelema is heavily influenced by qabalah and rosicrucianism/freemasonry for example.





  29. #29
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    The water made by Allah has so much taste that one will be lost in it, one can't have such taste in artificially made water even if the technology is best of the best.
    صلى الله على حبيبه محمد و على آله و أصحابه و سلم
    Al-Muslimeen

  30. #30
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmed_abdullah View Post
    The water made by Allah has so much taste that one will be lost in it, one can't have such taste in artificially made water even if the technology is best of the best.
    that is so true mashaAllah





  31. #31
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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Jazakallah khair sis dhakiyya for some great information in this thread, i was actually looking forward to chatting with this pagan chap but as I and some others soon realised from this thread http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...Paganism/page2 and some threads he commented in... we were not dealing with a serious truth seeker, more of a paranoid islamaphobic bafoon of a guy, so that was a bit of a shame.

    It is nice sometimes to chat to someone with views that are the polar opposite of our own, but that is only if they know what they are talking about, this one i think was a fish out of the water.

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    Re: Hello, I'm a Pagan

    Quote Originally Posted by Arsalan View Post
    Is father Christmas a pagan god too? And what about the snowman?
    santa and jack frost .. both part of the pagan god pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by -MA- View Post
    What does a pagan do then?

    Is it still like the pagans of old who used to walk around naked, bury babies, have incestious relationships etc?
    probably still do .. they're gods did some of that nonsense

    still cant believe there are people that believe in mythology like this


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