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  1. #1
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    Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

    Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

    He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

    “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

    Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


    Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

    And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

    And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

    “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



    Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/salafi-imam-we-must-believe-arabs-are-master-race/

  2. #81
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuNajm View Post
    The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

    Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

    Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

    Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

    The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

    Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?

    We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?

    Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority? and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawud21 View Post
    Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?

    We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?

    Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority? and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.
    The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
    Last edited by Calender121438; 22-09-17 at 09:15 PM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Exactly!

    and about evidences that show there's no preference but only in taqwaa..

    we say there's no conflict between them

    because preference of arabs comes when they are equal in taqwa and deen.
    No one is ever equal in taqwa. Also negged for being a racist prick. Get your stuff out here
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuNajm View Post
    The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

    Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

    Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

    Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

    The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.
    Describe "Priority"?

    None of what you say is incorrect. The problem is that you are missing the base of the problem.

    You obviously have good grasp of ibn taymiyah work, these racial issues have arised because these supposed "Arabs" have a twisted idea of ibn taymiyah work.

    The real problem people think "Arab" is an inherent superiority.

    Realistically by definition many fluent Arabic speaking muslim today who follow the sunnah, has an extremely fluent grasp of the Arabic language would be considered "arab" by ibn taymiyah.

    If the Racist Arabs today and the whinning non-arabs today actually had a proper understanding of ibn taymiyah work they would come a conclusion that he was acutally the lease racist of individuals. That his work about Arab superiority and what an Arab is actually NOT racist.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Here's why its a problem today.

    Arab: I am superior, I am an Arab he's Latino

    Meanwhile.

    Latino: Has a better grasp of Arabic, follow Islamic/Arabic tradition etc.

    That has always been the problem. People have never argued against the superiority of Arab language and its culture since it is pretty much tied to Islam.

    Arab: I am better anyway,,I was born Arab.

    Racism in Islamic communities is so Subtle and disturbing tbh.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

  7. #86
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
    I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

    You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

    You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

    That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

    Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawud21 View Post
    Allah choose the Israelites too as mentioned in the Quran, using the same context of your arguments, we would have to say that they are also superior, yet we know most of them choose not to follow the Prophet, but what about those that did who as a result didn't incur Allah's wrath for their disbelief?
    Allah also "unchose" Bani Isra'eel. However, Bani Isra'eel has a historic "superiority" since no other lineage had as many Prophets remembered until now.

    What people ignore is the downside to being "chosen" by Allah. The Arabs who did not become Muslim are lower than the Christians and Jews in some ways. One of which is that Jizyah is not accepted from the Arab non-Muslim, rather the only options available to them are to fight or convert to Islam.

    Allah also referred to Mushrik Arabs as the "worst in Disbelief and Hypocrisy". So with the "superiority" comes the worst type of condemnation for failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawud21 View Post
    We can argue that they are far superior then the Arabs since the Israelite's had a long line of Prophets from their lineage as opposed to the Ismealites, referring to those Rabbi's in Medina that became Muslim, how do you reconcile this with the above?
    No, "we" can't argue something just because the untrained, unqualified and undisciplined mind of an individual attempts to employ logic to something Tawqeefi.

    In other words, the principle of the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs is not based on logic, intellect or reason. Rather the principle is based on something revealed and divinely-inspired.

    So there's no point in attempting to confine the discussion to "logical" proofs, even poorly developed proofs, and argue against the principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawud21 View Post
    Can you elaborate why the scholars belief that Allah choosing implies superiority?
    Again, this issue is Tawqeefi, not Ijtihadi. In other words, there is no "reason" or intellectual proof at the basis of this Belief. Some scholars have surmised possible 'Ilal or "reasons" for the Belief, but those are Ijtihadi and subject to debate and discusssion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dawud21 View Post
    and also what kind of superiority are we talking about ? is this racial? cultural? heritage? linguistically? Spiritually ? Taqwa ? intelligence ? civilisation ? etc. what type of superiority are we talking about here? because superiority comes in many forms.
    Sorry but some of these questions are irrelevant. No one said that Arab "Taqwa" is superior to non-Arab "Taqwa".

    The "kind of superiority" has already been mentioned. There's no reason to extend the parameters of the "superiority" beyond what the scholars mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
    Wrong. Every scholar of Ahl as-Sunnah believes in the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. All of them were/are experts in Tafsir of the Quran.

    You would have to avoid all the works of Ahl as-Sunnah in order to run away from this Belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    Describe "Priority"?
    It is simply a synonym for "preference" or "choice".

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    None of what you say is incorrect. The problem is that you are missing the base of the problem.
    What is the "base of the problem"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    You obviously have good grasp of ibn taymiyah work, these racial issues have arised because these supposed "Arabs" have a twisted idea of ibn taymiyah work.

    The real problem people think "Arab" is an inherent superiority.

    Realistically by definition many fluent Arabic speaking muslim today who follow the sunnah, has an extremely fluent grasp of the Arabic language would be considered "arab" by ibn taymiyah.

    If the Racist Arabs today and the whinning non-arabs today actually had a proper understanding of ibn taymiyah work they would come a conclusion that he was acutally the lease racist of individuals. That his work about Arab superiority and what an Arab is actually NOT racist.
    There is a logical fallacy in the assumptions you make while trying to understand this principle.

    No one said that Arabs have "inherent superiority". Rather the superiority that Arabs have is an "acquired" superiority. In other words, any individual, from any race, can acquire the same superiority that Arabs as a group have, except for the priority given to Quraysh for Khilaafah.

    Likewise, any individual Arab who is deficient in the specific attributes which make Arabs superior to non-Arabs, for example, his or her imitation of the non-Arabs, makes them inferior and even worse than a non-Arab who imitates the Arabs, i.e. utilizes the Arabic language, imitates the Prophet SAWS and Salaf, and adheres to the norms of Maru'ah and Islamic Adab.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    Here's why its a problem today.

    Arab: I am superior, I am an Arab he's Latino

    Meanwhile.

    Latino: Has a better grasp of Arabic, follow Islamic/Arabic tradition etc.

    That has always been the problem. People have never argued against the superiority of Arab language and its culture since it is pretty much tied to Islam.

    Arab: I am better anyway,,I was born Arab.

    Racism in Islamic communities is so Subtle and disturbing tbh.
    There is racism in every community, Muslim and non-Muslim.

    The difference between Muslim and non-Muslim communities is that Islam provides the solution to racism without claiming that all races/tribes/cultures/nations are equal.

    As Muslims, we all agree that the best among us are the most knowledgeable of Allah's Speech, His Laws, and the Sunnah of His Messenger SAWS.

    All Muslims agree that in order to study Allah's Quran, Laws, and His Messenger's Sunnah, one must know the Arabic language.

    All Muslims agree that the best Muslim is the one that imitates the Prophet SAWS the closest, and this leads to a person adopting all the characteristics, preferences and behavior of the Prophet SAWS, from how he SAWS looked to how he SAWS walked, talked, prayed, slept, ate, interacted, etc.

    Any objective observer of such a person would necessarily arrive at the conclusion that this person is "Arabized" and not belonging to any other race, culture, nation, etc. Even if they were from India, Australia, the USA, UK, Somalia, China, etc.

    Muslims are only experiencing racism amongst ourselves due to abandoning efforts to imitate the Prophet SAWS and abandonment of the Arabic language as our primary language.

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    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    No one is ever equal in taqwa. Also negged for being a racist prick. Get your stuff out here
    Ok master "un racist"

    Can you give me a name of a only ONE classical scholar who you follow in this issue ?
    Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 23-09-17 at 02:29 AM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Ok master "un racist"

    Can you give me a name of a only ONE classical scholar who you follow in this issue ?
    ibn Taymiyah.

    Was gonna neg you again, but no more negs left. smdh.
    Last edited by Abdell; 23-09-17 at 02:54 AM.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

    You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

    You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

    That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

    Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
    Which issue are we talking about with regards to Imam Nawawi. I remember reading his explanation about 40 hadiths and loved it.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    I think people are just arguing for two completely different things. Most non-Arabs aknwoledge the the aquired superiority by Arabs.

    The ones that do complain are just ignorant about how it works and assume its all inherent and racial superiority.

    Again the prpblem here is the typical non-Arab probably has no idea that he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition.

    All this problem lies in defining race and ethnicity the same way the kuffar does it.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

    You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

    You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

    That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

    Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
    1) "فضل" does not mean superiority. Allah uses the same word in surah 4:95. In Surah 4:95, Allah preferred the mujahideen because of their actions, not their ethnicity.

    2) I will no longer respond to you or people like you. I trying to offend you but you have jahiliyya love for Ibn Taymiyyah.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    1) "فضل" does not mean superiority. Allah uses the same word in surah 4:95. In Surah 4:95, Allah preferred the mujahideen because of their actions, not their ethnicity.

    2) I will no longer respond to you or people like you. I trying to offend you but you have jahiliyya love for Ibn Taymiyyah.
    Huh? What? Wasn't it confirmed earlier that Even Imam Shafii and Imam Hanifa said the same thing? can somebody clarify this for me.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    1) "فضل" does not mean superiority. Allah uses the same word in surah 4:95. In Surah 4:95, Allah preferred the mujahideen because of their actions, not their ethnicity.

    2) I will no longer respond to you or people like you. I trying to offend you but you have jahiliyya love for Ibn Taymiyyah.
    Dude no ethnicity is superior than another but the Arabs have aquired superiority with Arabic and thus understanding of deen. You should Accept this.

    You should instead focus on improving your Arabic and Sunnah. Once you have mastery of the language and Practice. You Are basically an Arab according to ibn taymiyah.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    ibn Taymiyah.

    Was gonna neg you again, but no more negs left. smdh.
    Ibn taymeya...??!

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Ibn taymeya...??!
    on my neg list.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post

    Again the prpblem here is the typical non-Arab probably has no idea that he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition.
    .
    Exuse me, can you tell me where did you get this from?

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post

    Again the prpblem here is the typical non-Arab probably has no idea that he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition.
    .
    Who are those "classical scholars"?

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    on my neg list.
    Lol

    Seems you have huge knowledge to argue about what you believe...

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Lol

    Seems you have huge knowledge to argue about what you believe...
    Racist...
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Exuse me, can you tell me where did you get this from?
    You are a huge problem in this ummah. Id slap your face if i ever see you IRL you racist prick. Negging you on sight frm no on. Go practice your racism somewhere else.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

    You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

    You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

    That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

    Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
    1) I meant NOT trying to offend you, I want the best for you.

    2) Please also read this thread: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ic-communities

  24. #103
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Chill guys.


    About this issue, I remember seeing some post (he/she) worded it well.
    Its more of definitions really. The moment you mention superior, its more understood in the sense of power/higher authority etc.


    Arabs are not "superior" to Arabs in general. This idea may have an negative effect on the society of the ummah as a whole. yes we can't deny that majority of the scholars from back then till now are mostly Arabs. but that doesnt meant they are superior.


    The last sermon by Prophet sums it perfectly well.


    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.


    Perhaps there is further explanation to Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) 's discourse. Or he meant it in a different way.


    In my opinion superior, I think its more of traits. Like speciality that was given to them.
    But I think it only applies to the lineage of Rasullulah is of Arab descent, no matter where they are right now. Inter-racial marriages occur. They will still be half-Arabs in that case.
    Perhaps they are not just residing in Arabic countries, they have gone to other countries.
    And I believe they are given special traits by Allah (whether they realise or not) like ability of memorise etc.
    There are also the lineages of the sahabah. They are all mostly Arabs too. Arabs back then are not like the Arabs now. Things have changed.


    Come to think of it, The lineage of the enemies of Islam from back then? They were Arabs too. And their descendants today still exists.
    but that doesn't mean the whole generation is enemies of Islam.


    One thing Arabs are superior is their knowledge in teaching Islam is always at the top.
    Has and always been that way for centuries,decades. And there is no issue on that matter.


    I may be wrong in these statements. Forgive me. Wallahu'alam.


    I was also interested and wondering why this comparison happens.
    Anyone? Would like to see more of the reasons.
    Been looking around threads and even in other websites, it seems like there are similar discussions taking place.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    1) My last post in here: I am a Muslim because of the Quran. I could careless about what any "scholar" says about this.

    2) Islam is not about worshiping Ibn Taymiyyah or any other "scholar". If it was, I would have left Islam a long time ago: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)
    Last edited by Calender121438; 23-09-17 at 04:16 AM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by MuslimThinker View Post
    Chill guys.


    About this issue, I remember seeing some post (he/she) worded it well.
    Its more of definitions really. The moment you mention superior, its more understood in the sense of power/higher authority etc.


    Arabs are not "superior" to Arabs in general. This idea may have an negative effect on the society of the ummah as a whole. yes we can't deny that majority of the scholars from back then till now are mostly Arabs. but that doesnt meant they are superior.


    The last sermon by Prophet sums it perfectly well.


    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.


    Perhaps there is further explanation to Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) 's discourse. Or he meant it in a different way.


    In my opinion superior, I think its more of traits. Like speciality that was given to them.
    But I think it only applies to the lineage of Rasullulah is of Arab descent, no matter where they are right now. Inter-racial marriages occur. They will still be half-Arabs in that case.
    Perhaps they are not just residing in Arabic countries, they have gone to other countries.
    And I believe they are given special traits by Allah (whether they realise or not) like ability of memorise etc.
    There are also the lineages of the sahabah. They are all mostly Arabs too. Arabs back then are not like the Arabs now. Things have changed.


    Come to think of it, The lineage of the enemies of Islam from back then? They were Arabs too. And their descendants today still exists.
    but that doesn't mean the whole generation is enemies of Islam.


    One thing Arabs are superior is their knowledge in teaching Islam is always at the top.
    Has and always been that way for centuries,decades. And there is no issue on that matter.


    I may be wrong in these statements. Forgive me. Wallahu'alam.


    I was also interested and wondering why this comparison happens.
    Anyone? Would like to see more of the reasons.
    Been looking around threads and even in other websites, it seems like there are similar discussions taking place.
    Read the thread. One of the brothers posted what ibn Taymiyyah said in full (saying this because you're wondering)

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Exuse me, can you tell me where did you get this from?
    Maybe you could try reading the thread end to end

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foodadad View Post
    Maybe you could try reading the thread end to end

    My question was..

    Quote me any scholars who said " he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition."..

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    You are a huge problem in this ummah. Id slap your face if i ever see you IRL you racist prick. Negging you on sight frm no on. Go practice your racism somewhere else.
    We want to fight coconuts because they reject islamic rulings that they dislike and even use daleel wrongly to reject it like fools
    Yet as soon as something that we don't like comes we start rejecting it like coconuts and use proof wrongly just like they do?

    I think we need to calm down and understand the ahadith correctly, this isn't a view of Ibn Taymiyyah, it's the view of the vast majority of Arab and non Arab scholars that have come, but maybe you have misunderstood.
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    The scholars do not believe that since it clearly contradicts the Quran. This is the view of Ibn Taymiyyah only. This is one of the reasons why I avoid his teachings, he claims "ijma" and "ahlu sunnah" for his views.
    You seriously have no knowledge of the deen if you think only in Taymiyyah held this view, get off the forum and go study
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    My question was..

    Quote me any scholars who said " he would be considered Arab by classical scholars if he was fluent and followed Arab tradition."..
    There is one quoted. Your question is already answered.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foodadad View Post
    There is one quoted. Your question is already answered.
    Can you make it easy to me and copy it here.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Can you make it easy to me and copy it here.


    Easy for* me

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    First thing I want to say is I'm a previously banned user (Spicen) and yes I know, I know I'm not supposed to make second account. However, this is a really important issue. I promise I will not discuss any topic outside this and when in time I feel this is sufficiently discussed I will myself take myself away from the forum. Hence I hope the mods will atleast give me a couple of days before banning me (although I fully expect to get banned today).

    On the issue at hand, the very first thing I want to add is that I truly wish Berke Khan the mongol who sacrificed his brotherhood for mongols and as he said truly: "Mongols are killed by Mongol swords. If we were united, then we would have conquered all of the world" had seen that Arab supremacism is indeed the position of orthodox islam and then it is very likely he would have finished what Hulagu started. And instead he ended up being part of another group of people where he is considered second class loser. To be fair though he converted to sufi islam so my guess is he would just reject arab supremacism and still claim to be muslim but I wonder what would have happened if he and other non-arabs knew about these things.
    @Muwahid_ - This is not only a belief not salafis and Ibn taymiyyah but also the belief of ahlus sunnah. If you disagree you have left ahlus sunnah wal jamaa.
    @Linkdeutscher - Shaikhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah said in Iqtidaa’ As-Siraat al-Mustaqeem:
    The belief of Ahlussunnati waJamaa’ah is that the essence of Arabs is better than that of ‘Ajam, whether the ‘Ajam
    are Hebrew, Assyrians, Romans, Persians or others.
    Quraish is the best of Arabs, Bani Hashim are the best of Quaish, and Muhammad ASWS is the best of Bani Hashim.
    Therefore, Muhammad ASWS is the best of humanity, both in person and in lineage.
    The virtue of Arabs, Quraish and then Bani Hashim is not just because the Prophet ASWS was from them, even
    though this is a part of virtue. Arabs are in themselves better. This is how it is proven that the Prophet ASWS is the
    best in person and lineage. Otherwise, a revolving argument will generate.3
    Abu Muhammad Harb bin Ismail al-Kirmaani, the companion of Imam Ahmad, described his book of Sunnah by
    saying:
    "This is the belief of Imaams of knowledge, those of Athar and well known people of Sunnah, which have been

    2
    Note: translation of the word (جنس (is essence.
    3
    A revolving argument is to say: "A" depends on "B" while "B" depends on "A" which is unacceptable logically.
    taken as examples. It is the belief of scholars of Iraq, Hijaaz, Sham and others.
    Whomever goes against any of these Madhaahib, attacks them or despises those adopting them is a person of
    Bid’ah, he would be outside of Jamaa’ah, and inconsistent with the way of Sunnah and path of truth.
    It is the Madhab of Ahmad, Ishaaq bin Ibrahim bin Makhlad, Abdullah bin Az-zubair, al-Humaidee, Sa’eed bin
    Mansoor, and others with whom we have sat and from whom we have acquired knowledge.
    Among their sayings were: Imaan is to say, do and believe …
    We are to realize for Arabs their right, virtue and early acceptance of Islam. We are to love them because the
    Prophet ASWS said: loving Arabs is Imaan, and disliking them is hypocrisy. Shu’oobis and low Mawaale dislike
    Arabs and do not admit to their virtue. This is a Bid’ah and an inconsistency with the correct way. We do not say
    that which they say."

    Al-Albanee said in As-Silsilah Ad-Da’eefah 163:
    “The (جنس (of Arabs is better than the (جنس (of the rest of nations. This is what I believe, adopt as creed and
    consider as part of religion.
    Even though I am Albanian, I am a Muslim, praise to Allah.
    The virtue of the (جنس (of Arabs is the position of Ahlussunnah Wal-jamaa’ah. It is proven by many Hadeeths.”
    Last edited by As-Suhoobiyah; 23-09-17 at 10:06 AM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid_ View Post
    When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

    Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

    He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

    “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

    Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


    Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

    And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

    And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

    “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



    Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2...e-master-race/
    You misunderstood the hadith.

    According to the understanding of scholars, the last sermon only refers to Shariah rulings, that both arabs and non-arabs are equal infront of shariah law. However, this doesn't contradict the belief that arabs are superior to non-arabs according to the understanding of Ahlus Sunnah.

    Secondly, you are wrong in saying only salafis and Ibn Taymiyyah hold this. If you hold the deviant and bidah belief that arabs are not superior you have officially left ahlus sunnah and become a deviant att best and kaafir at worst.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    because preference of arabs comes when they are equal in taqwa and deen.
    Wow.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    1) I meant NOT trying to offend you, I want the best for you.

    2) Please also read this thread: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ic-communities
    You didn't offend me. I never lose my sleep over what people think. You are free to think what you like. I won't be responsible for your actions just like you will not be responsible for mine.

    However, if the superiority of the Arabs in this temporary world bothers you then you should know that you still have your sights set on this worldly life. You have a long way to go when it comes to your spiritual development.

    There are people taller than you
    There are people smarter than you
    There are people wealthier than you
    There are people who are better looking than you
    There are people who will run faster than you
    There are people who will out do you in any skill
    There are people who are more charismatic than you

    Do you know the common denominator in all of that? It all has to do with this temporary worldly life.

    The Arabs are superior as a genus over others. That is limited to this world.

    You will have Arabs in the Fire. You will have Arabs who will never see Paradise.

    The criteria for the one thing which matters, namely the next life, is Taqwaa.

    Allaah has clearly stated that in the Qur'aan.

    I do not see why you are bothered if the Arabs are better than the non-Arabs.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    You didn't offend me. I never lose my sleep over what people think. You are free to think what you like. I won't be responsible for your actions just like you will not be responsible for mine.

    However, if the superiority of the Arabs in this temporary world bothers you then you should know that you still have your sights set on this worldly life. You have a long way to go when it comes to your spiritual development.

    There are people taller than you
    There are people smarter than you
    There are people wealthier than you
    There are people who are better looking than you
    There are people who will run faster than you
    There are people who will out do you in any skill
    There are people who are more charismatic than you

    Do you know the common denominator in all of that? It all has to do with this temporary worldly life.

    The Arabs are superior as a genus over others. That is limited to this world.

    You will have Arabs in the Fire. You will have Arabs who will never see Paradise.

    The criteria for the one thing which matters, namely the next life, is Taqwaa.

    Allaah has clearly stated that in the Qur'aan.

    I do not see why you are bothered if the Arabs are better than the non-Arabs.
    1) Subhanallah. I swear by Allah if Islam taught what you said here, I would have left Islam a long time ago:

    2) Please read this thread: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...olution-theory

    3) And then please really reflect on this thread: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ic-communities

    4) Then finally read this thread to see if you are worshiping Allah or Ibn Taymiyyah: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)

  39. #118
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Wow.
    exactly. This the problem.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    We want to fight coconuts because they reject islamic rulings that they dislike and even use daleel wrongly to reject it like fools
    Yet as soon as something that we don't like comes we start rejecting it like coconuts and use proof wrongly just like they do?

    I think we need to calm down and understand the ahadith correctly, this isn't a view of Ibn Taymiyyah, it's the view of the vast majority of Arab and non Arab scholars that have come, but maybe you have misunderstood.
    I am not arguing against the aquired superiority of Arabs. The Poster is a racist because he attributed superioity to rightouness simply because he is Arab over a non-Arab Muslim.

    This is racism.

    evertything about Arab superiority is in Dunya, not ahkira. The one who thinks he is supeeior in Ahkira because he is Arab is racit.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    You didn't offend me. I never lose my sleep over what people think. You are free to think what you like. I won't be responsible for your actions just like you will not be responsible for mine.

    However, if the superiority of the Arabs in this temporary world bothers you then you should know that you still have your sights set on this worldly life. You have a long way to go when it comes to your spiritual development.

    There are people taller than you
    There are people smarter than you
    There are people wealthier than you
    There are people who are better looking than you
    There are people who will run faster than you
    There are people who will out do you in any skill
    There are people who are more charismatic than you
    None of those things make you superior compared to another Muslim, futile examples.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

 

 

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