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  1. #1
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    Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

    Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

    He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

    “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

    Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


    Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

    And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

    And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

    “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



    Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2008/02/19/salafi-imam-we-must-believe-arabs-are-master-race/

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by myidea View Post
    Brother i think that is abit over the top, you might disagree with certain scholars on certain issues, but i wouldnt let it get to your imaan and pride.
    You're right. I am letting emotion cloud my judgment. Yes, I do disagree with the scholars on several ruling, but according to many on this thread I am a kaffir for doing so.

    What I've been trying to ask, granted poorly, is if Ibn Taymiyyah and the other classical scholars have concrete evidence from the Quran and sunnah to back their rulings?

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    Odan bint begum's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Literacy View Post
    An eminent Scholar of the past that believed Arabs were superior to non-Arabs, and anyone who doesn't accept this is branded an innovator and a deviant.

    And no, I'm not a Salafi.
    The rasul saw said that no arab is superior to a non-arab and no non-arab is superior to an arab except in taqwa and that is enough for me. Ibn Taymiyyah rahimahullah is not of higher authority than the noble prophet saw. and no scholar is perfect. if they say things which go againt the quran and sunnah then we simply don't accept what they say. may allah have mercy on him and reward him for his noble works and where he made errors may allah forgive him ameen.

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    Private Investigator samin62's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    original arabic anybody?
    "They are Shuhadaa (witnesses) to the fact that this Deen is greater than life, that values are more important than blood and that principles are more precious than souls" - Sheikh 'Abdullah Azzam

    Lost in Islamic History

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Literacy View Post
    You're right. I am letting emotion cloud my judgment. Yes, I do disagree with the scholars on several ruling, but according to many on this thread I am a kaffir for doing so.

    What I've been trying to ask, granted poorly, is if Ibn Taymiyyah and the other classical scholars have concrete evidence from the Quran and sunnah to back their rulings?
    I think we all accept prophet Muhammed s.a.w was the best of Man, and his lineage is the best? Prophets Muhammed s.a.w sunnah, in regards to his last sermon about equality in taqwa and like a brother mentioned his marriage of a non Arab Sahaba (racially) to an Arab women Sahabi speaks for itself I think.

    Not every scholar that came later was void from politics, all had fare share of it, I disagree with certain scholars, who have said very borderline if not racist things about Turks, Tartars and Persians for example, whom mainly Salafis follow, and yes many people advocate these things still, it comes from Arabs as well as Non Arabs. Advocators of nationalism and its ideologies will eventually fall. Let nationalist and people with identity issues dwell on that themselves.

    I don’t think that should take any love away from the average Muslim Arab or Muslim non Arab. Or that we should develop a hate for a certain people, based on racial lines.

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    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
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    Did they even ban you for calling Ibn Taymiyyah a racist and accusing him of jahilia last time you dabbled in this topic? Your motive here isn't to learn the answer to a justified question, that much is clear. Other people have answered you amply enough, all that's missing from this thread is the original arabic texts of reasoning from the book by Ibn T, some of which I actually provided and translated last time. But you're not interested in that are you?

    Now hit me back with "only Allah knows my intentions", why don't you

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    الفقير إلى رحمة الله ahaneefah's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    A brother from IA mentioned:

    Here is the context in which the Shaykh mentions this issue of superiority of the Arabs over the non-Arabs:

    In between the section entitled ‘The Matter of Contradicting the Shayatin’ and the section entitled ‘The Law Preceding ours is a Law for Us as long as It does not Oppose Our Law’, is found the discussion in question included in the section entitled ‘The Distinction between Resembling the Disbelievers and Shayatin and Resembling the Bedouins and Non-Arabs’.

    That is the context, and it is a very important set of issues that occupies an important place in the Sunnah, as well is in our current age. Resembling the Disbelievers is something dispraised in its essence, just like resembling the Shayatin, while resembling non-Arabs and Bedouins is not dispraised in its essence rather there are groups of non-Arabs and Bedouins and they are grouped according to whether or not they are Believers. If they are indeed Believers then they will follow the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS and resemble most the Muhajireen and Ansaar, in which case they will appear like Arabs in their culture, language, and manners, and according to some opinions, by means of this they will have entered into Arab-ness to an extent.

    So you see your understanding that the Shaykh mentioned the discussion of the superiority of the Arabs within an overall discussion of innovation is not accurate, rather he was discussing matters which are known from the Deen, like not imitating the Shaytan in eating and drinking with the left hand and the position of Ahl us-Sunnah on matters related to previous revealed laws- matters of great importance that are fundamental to the Deen and remaining firm upon the straight path.

    People are inextricably tied to what is perceived as their race, as the Shaykh pointed out in part of the discussion, most people today don't know where they come from in terms of lineage, and so people are mostly categorized by language or land in which they reside, even when discussing Arabs. So given that lineage is not an issue with many non-Arabs and even Arabs, then how else will a person be defined but according to the culture, language, land in which they reside, character, etc? If a person is actively pursuing imitation of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA, then this person will acquire various outwards characteristics that depending on phenotype may not be distinguishable from an Arab even! Most people would consider this person Arab for all sakes and purposes until and unless they ask for the lineage. (Happens to me all the time in Mexico)

    This has to do with praise and dispraise of individuals based on designations found in the Qur'an and judging individuals based on their excellence or superiority according to these designations like Believer or Disbeliever, Pious or Wicked, Knowledgeable or Ignorant, etc. A persons lineage will not impede any of these categorizations in the least bit, nor prevent an individual from the non-Arabs or even Bedouins from excelling or being superior to a descendant of the Quraysh.

    You have the right idea about the Farewell Sermon and not being unjust to anyone is assessing their excellence and superiority with regards to well-known designations of what is praised and dispraised near Allah and His Messenger, however you have atrophied completely on the issue dealing with the superiority of groups of people over others, or between 'races' as your so averse to having it worded.

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    Odan KeeKee's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    who hates shaikh ibn taymiyyah? i suppose some won't always agree with him but he was a great scholar regardless. we all know ulama are not infallible.

    Quote Originally Posted by myidea View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

    Some people like him, some hate him, controversial figure in that sense.
    The enforcement of Muslim Brotherhood is the greatest social ideal of Islam. On it was based the Prophet's (SAW) sermon on his last pilgrimage, and Islam cannot be completely realized until this ideal is achieved. '
    (Shaikh Maulana Muhammad Yusuf)
    In Lam Takun Ghaadiban Annee Falaa Ubaalee...

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    Private Investigator samin62's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    ^some people call him a "wahhabi" lol
    "They are Shuhadaa (witnesses) to the fact that this Deen is greater than life, that values are more important than blood and that principles are more precious than souls" - Sheikh 'Abdullah Azzam

    Lost in Islamic History

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    how silly.
    The enforcement of Muslim Brotherhood is the greatest social ideal of Islam. On it was based the Prophet's (SAW) sermon on his last pilgrimage, and Islam cannot be completely realized until this ideal is achieved. '
    (Shaikh Maulana Muhammad Yusuf)
    In Lam Takun Ghaadiban Annee Falaa Ubaalee...

  11. #50
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Literacy View Post
    Please, no one mentioned Europeans or Nazis. This is comparing apples and oranges; racism will always be racism. There are many rulings of Ibn Taymiyyah where he stated that it is severely disliked for an Arab woman to marry a non-Arab, only an Arab can hold powerful political positions, and an Arab is not subjected to Zakat (Tax). That is Arab nationalism, and is trying to use Islam to push Arab hegemony.
    Evidence?
    "Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes"

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    الفقير إلى رحمة الله ahaneefah's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Literacy View Post
    According to Ahlus Sunnah, you're an innovator.
    Ibn Taymiyyah says in his Iqtidaa: “Thus indeed it is that which Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah are upon: the belief that the race of the Arab is more excellent/preferred/superior than the race of the non-Arab…”

    You either agree or disagree with what the Shaykh is saying. If you disagree with it than the companion of Imam Ahmad, al-Kirmani and Ibn Taymiyyah say that you have innovated and left the Jama’ah of Ahl us-Sunnah.

    If you disagree with the above, then simply bring a scholar of equal or higher repute opposing this view and stating in no uncertain terms what the belief of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah is regarding the superiority of the Arab.

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    الفقير إلى رحمة الله ahaneefah's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    This is the true position of Ibn Taymiyya (rh).


    وما ذكره كثير من العلماء من أن غير العرب ليسوا أكفاء للعرب في النكاح، فهذه مسألة نزاع بين العلماء، فمنهم من لا يرى الكفاءة إلا في الدين، ومن رآها في النسب ـ أيضًا ـ فإنه يحتج بقول عمر‏:‏ لأمنعن ذوات الأحساب إلا من الأكفاء؛ لأن النكاح مقصوده حسن الألفة، فإذا كانت المرأة أعلى منصبًا اشتغلت عن الرجل فلا يتم به المقصود‏.‏ وهذه حجة من جعل ذلك حقًا لله، حتى أبطل النكاح إذا زوجت المرأة بمن لا يكافئها في الدين أو المنصب، ومن جعلها حقًا لآدمي قال‏:‏ إن في ذلك غضاضة على أولياء المرأة وعليها، والأمر إليهم في ذلك‏.‏
    ثم هؤلاء لا يخصون الكفاءة بالنسب، بل يقولون‏:‏ هي من الصفات التي تتفاضل بها النفوس، كالصناعة واليسار والحرية وغير ذلك، وهذه مسائل اجتهادية ترد إلى الله والرسول؛ فإن جاء عن الله ورسوله ما يوافق أحد القولين فما جاء عن الله لا يختلف، وإلا فلا يكون قول أحد حجة على الله ورسوله‏.‏وليس عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم نص صحيح صريح في هذه الأمور، بل قد قال صلى الله عليه وسلم‏:‏ ‏(‏إن الله أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية وفخرها بالآباء، الناس رجلان‏:‏ مؤمن تقي، وفاجر شقي‏)‏،


    Ibn Tayimiyya said in Majmoo3 fatwa:
    And what many scholars mentioned that non arab is not suitable for arab in marriage, then this is a disputed issue among the scholars, there are those who do not see suitability except in terms of religion, and there are those who saw it in lineage also – they argue with the saying of Umar : "I shall prevent those with lineage except from the suitable ones" *. Because the purpose of marriage is harmony, so if the women were of higher status she will not serve her husband (pre-occupied with herself) and this does not serve the purpose (of marriage). And this is proof of those who said it is must until they nullified nikah if a woman married with someone who was not suitable in religion and lineage ... till he said ... and this issue is based upon ijtihaad (jurisprudential) returns to Allah and his messenger; if it comes from messenger of Allah that which falls in agreement with either of the two sayings then what comes from Allah there is no contradiction in it. Otherwise none of the saying will be hujja upon Allah and his messenger. And there is no clear and authentic narration from prophet regarding this issues, but he (saw) said: "Verily Allah has removed from you the imperfection of days of ignorance and taking pride in fathers, people are of two kinds: Pious believer and immoral wretch."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    A brother from IA mentioned:

    Here is the context in which the Shaykh mentions this issue of superiority of the Arabs over the non-Arabs:

    In between the section entitled ‘The Matter of Contradicting the Shayatin’ and the section entitled ‘The Law Preceding ours is a Law for Us as long as It does not Oppose Our Law’, is found the discussion in question included in the section entitled ‘The Distinction between Resembling the Disbelievers and Shayatin and Resembling the Bedouins and Non-Arabs’.

    That is the context, and it is a very important set of issues that occupies an important place in the Sunnah, as well is in our current age. Resembling the Disbelievers is something dispraised in its essence, just like resembling the Shayatin, while resembling non-Arabs and Bedouins is not dispraised in its essence rather there are groups of non-Arabs and Bedouins and they are grouped according to whether or not they are Believers. If they are indeed Believers then they will follow the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS and resemble most the Muhajireen and Ansaar, in which case they will appear like Arabs in their culture, language, and manners, and according to some opinions, by means of this they will have entered into Arab-ness to an extent.

    So you see your understanding that the Shaykh mentioned the discussion of the superiority of the Arabs within an overall discussion of innovation is not accurate, rather he was discussing matters which are known from the Deen, like not imitating the Shaytan in eating and drinking with the left hand and the position of Ahl us-Sunnah on matters related to previous revealed laws- matters of great importance that are fundamental to the Deen and remaining firm upon the straight path.

    People are inextricably tied to what is perceived as their race, as the Shaykh pointed out in part of the discussion, most people today don't know where they come from in terms of lineage, and so people are mostly categorized by language or land in which they reside, even when discussing Arabs. So given that lineage is not an issue with many non-Arabs and even Arabs, then how else will a person be defined but according to the culture, language, land in which they reside, character, etc? If a person is actively pursuing imitation of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA, then this person will acquire various outwards characteristics that depending on phenotype may not be distinguishable from an Arab even! Most people would consider this person Arab for all sakes and purposes until and unless they ask for the lineage. (Happens to me all the time in Mexico)

    This has to do with praise and dispraise of individuals based on designations found in the Qur'an and judging individuals based on their excellence or superiority according to these designations like Believer or Disbeliever, Pious or Wicked, Knowledgeable or Ignorant, etc. A persons lineage will not impede any of these categorizations in the least bit, nor prevent an individual from the non-Arabs or even Bedouins from excelling or being superior to a descendant of the Quraysh.

    You have the right idea about the Farewell Sermon and not being unjust to anyone is assessing their excellence and superiority with regards to well-known designations of what is praised and dispraised near Allah and His Messenger, however you have atrophied completely on the issue dealing with the superiority of groups of people over others, or between 'races' as your so averse to having it worded.
    Thiss tooo

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Well excuse me for not taking the words of Ibn Taymiyah above the words of Prophet Muhammad PBUH!

    And besides Ibn Taymiyah is only sheikh of Salafis, a sect amongst 73 sects of Islam. He is nonexisting for other sects, just like sheikhs of sufis , sunnis and shias are nonexisting for Salafis.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
    Well excuse me for not taking the words of Ibn Taymiyah above the words of Prophet Muhammad PBUH!

    And besides Ibn Taymiyah is only sheikh of Salafis, a sect amongst 73 sects of Islam. He is nonexisting for other sects, just like sheikhs of sufis , sunnis and shias are nonexisting for Salafis.
    Can't make that judgement without confirming the source or understanding the context.

    Something you lack in.

    ForeverMoron.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid_ View Post
    That looks like something directly out of mein-kampf.

    And if it is obligatory to accept the superiority of the Arab race, why hasn't the prophet (SAW) said anything on the matter? Is this not an act of taking scholars as your lords, when Allah (SWT) and his messenger (SAW) have already ruled on this and that there is no superiority?
    Dude, first of all he probably means it in a certain context, Banu Hashim > Quraysh > Arab and Arab > Non-Arab. Ibn Taymiyyah believes that the Arab is the one who speaks Arabic, in this sense he believes the Arab is better than the non-Arab in that he can read and understand the Qur'an, not in anything else. As for Banu Hashim being superior to Quraysh and Quraysh superior to the rest of the Arabs, this is in the sense that Allah chose his messenger (saw) from Quraysh and so the closer you are to him the more Allah has favored you but it makes no difference in this life or on the day of judgement, also in the sense that Arabic is a better language than any other.

    Note, it's not a racial matter, no race is better than the other and no blood-line gets favorable treatment in front of Allah.

    Also I can't find evidence for their position, it could simply be that their position is incorrect, it seems from their writings that there was racism and hatred towards Arabs, this probably is a reaction to that.
    Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16 at 05:54 PM.

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    التبع اليماني obaid_m's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    This
    Quote Originally Posted by samin62 View Post
    original arabic anybody?
    “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    That is Ibn Taymiyyah's position it seems and here's the Arabic of this text or maybe another text,

    فإن الذي عليه أهل السنة والجماعة اعتقاد أن جنس العرب أفضل من جنس العجم: عبرانيهم وسريانيهم، رومهم و فرسهم وغيرهم، وأن قريشاً أفضل العرب وأن بني هاشم أفضل قريش وأن رسول الله (ص) أفضل بني هاشم، فهو أفضل الخلق نفساً وأفضلهم نسباً. وليس فضل العرب ثم قريش ثم بني هاشم بمجرد كون النبي (ص) منهم، وإن كان هذا من الفضل، بل هم أنفسهم أفضل.

    [What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest. Quraysh is also the best of the Arabs, Banu Hashim are better than Quraysh and the Messenger (saw) is better than Banu Hashim, so he is the best of the creations in his self and his lineage. The superiority of Arabs, Quraysh and Banu Hashim is not only limited to the Prophet (saw) being chosen from them, although that is one of the reasons, but rather they themselves are better.]

    But notice that he says later:

    لكن تفضيل الجملة على الجملة لا يستلزم أن يكون كل فرد أفضل من كل فرد فإن في غير العرب خلق كثير خير من أكثر العرب

    [However, preferring Arabs in general over non-Arabs does not necessarily mean that every individual Arab is better than every individual non-Arab, as there are plenty of non-Arabs who are superior than most Arabs.]

    I remind you, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that Arabs are anyone who speaks Arabic, even if he's Persian, Indian or Greek.

    He says:

    وما ذكرنا من حكم اللسان العربي وأخلاق العرب، يثبت لمن كان كذلك وإن كان أصله فارسياً، وينتفي عمن لم يكن كذلك وإن كان أصله هاشمياً

    [What we mentioned of rulings pertaining to the Arabic tongue and Arab morals, is established to anyone of them even if he's of Persian origins and it isn't established to anyone who doesn't possess (Arabic tongue and morals) even if he's originally a Hashemite.]

    Then he quotes this narration:

    إنَّ الرب واحد، والأبُ واحد، والدَين واحد، وإنَّ العربيةَ ليست لأحدكم بأبٍ ولا أمّ، إنما هي لسانَّ، فمنْ تكلَّمَ بالعربيةِ فهو عربي

    [The Lord is one, the father is one and the religion is one; Arabic is not a father or mother to any of you, it is only a tongue, so whoever speaks it then he is Arab.]

    He says "The meaning of this report is correct."

    Now all of the above doesn't matter, what matters is the evidence, let's look at their evidence since that's what decides, they quote the following:

    إن الله اصطفى كِنَانَةَ من وَلَدِ إسماعيل، واصطفى قريشاً من كنانة، واصطفى من قريشٍ بني هاشم، واصطفاني من بني هاشم

    [Verily Allah chose Kinanah from amongst the descendants of Isma`il and He chose the Quraysh amongst Kinanah and He chose from Banu Hashim from among Quraysh and He chose me from the tribe of Banu Hashim.]

    حب العرب إيمان، وبغضهم نفاق

    [Loving the Arabs is a sign of belief and hating them is a sign of disbelief.]

    بعثت من خير قرون بني آدم؛ قرناً فقرناً؛ حتى بعثت من القرن الذي كنت فيه

    [I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's (as) offspring, out of all generations until this one.]


    That's the evidence I've seen so far and it's terribly poor to suggest Arabs were better due to this as none of the texts are actually saying that.

    The theory here is, Arabs in general at that time were better due to the fact that they could understand Arabic and thus understood the religious instructions leading them to behave better.
    Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16 at 06:32 PM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TripolySunni View Post
    That is Ibn Taymiyyah's position it seems and here's the Arabic of this text or maybe another text,

    فإن الذي عليه أهل السنة والجماعة اعتقاد أن جنس العرب أفضل من جنس العجم: عبرانيهم وسريانيهم، رومهم و فرسهم وغيرهم، وأن قريشاً أفضل العرب وأن بني هاشم أفضل قريش وأن رسول الله (ص) أفضل بني هاشم، فهو أفضل الخلق نفساً وأفضلهم نسباً. وليس فضل العرب ثم قريش ثم بني هاشم بمجرد كون النبي (ص) منهم، وإن كان هذا من الفضل، بل هم أنفسهم أفضل.

    [What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest. Quraysh is also the best of the Arabs, Banu Hashim are better than Quraysh and the Messenger (saw) is better than Banu Hashim, so he is the best of the creations in his self and his lineage. The superiority of Arabs, Quraysh and Banu Hashim is not only limited to the Prophet (saw) being chosen from them, although that is one of the reasons, but rather they themselves are better.]

    But notice that he says later:

    لكن تفضيل الجملة على الجملة لا يستلزم أن يكون كل فرد أفضل من كل فرد فإن في غير العرب خلق كثير خير من أكثر العرب

    [However, preferring Arabs in general over non-Arabs does not necessarily mean that every individual Arab is better than every individual non-Arab, as there are plenty of non-Arabs who are superior than most Arabs.]

    I remind you, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that Arabs are anyone who speaks Arabic, even if he's Persian, Indian or Greek.

    Now all of the above doesn't matter, what matters is the evidence, let's look at their evidence since that's what decides, they quote the following:

    إن الله اصطفى كِنَانَةَ من وَلَدِ إسماعيل، واصطفى قريشاً من كنانة، واصطفى من قريشٍ بني هاشم، واصطفاني من بني هاشم

    [Verily Allah chose Kinanah from amongst the descendants of Isma`il and He chose the Quraysh amongst Kinanah and He chose from Banu Hashim from among Quraysh and He chose me from the tribe of Banu Hashim.]

    حب العرب إيمان، وبغضهم نفاق

    [Loving the Arabs is a sign of belief and hating them is a sign of disbelief.]

    بعثت من خير قرون بني آدم؛ قرناً فقرناً؛ حتى بعثت من القرن الذي كنت فيه

    [I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's (as) offspring, out of all generations until this one.]


    That's the evidence I've seen so far and it's terribly poor to suggest Arabs were better due to this as none of the texts are actually saying that.


    Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?


    Surely Logic says we must accept Quran and hadith of "arab is not better than nonarab vice versa......" and throw away whatever contradicts Quran and that Hadith.

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    mildly crushed Blackbeard's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
    Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?
    It has nothing to do with it


    For example we know the status of banu hashim and banu quraish(who are hashimi), are you going to say it's racist to say that they are superior than us?
    Last edited by Blackbeard; 03-03-16 at 06:33 PM.
    "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
    Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?


    Surely Logic says we must accept Quran and hadith of "arab is not better than nonarab vice versa......" and throw away whatever contradicts Quran and that Hadith.
    None of those narrations are actually saying Arabs are better than non-Arabs, read them again.

    First one describes from what lineage is our Prophet (saw), doesn't say more than that, Allah chose to favor Quraysh by picking the Prophet (saw) from among them but that doesn't mean they're better, it means he happened to be from them. Allah also chose abu jahl to be from Quraysh and abu lahab from banu Hashim.

    Second one is against racism, it says hating the Arabs is a sign of hypocrisy, as if the Messenger (saw) knew many non-Arabs would embrace Islam and act with racism and hatred or jealousy towards them. (Which did happen, check Iran and Turkey) There's also narrations that are anti-racism in general, so the ruling is general.

    Third one says his generation was the best generation, nothing to do with Arab superiority.

    CORRECTION, second narration says "Hating the Arabs is a sign of Hypocrisy" Not "Disbelief".
    Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16 at 06:44 PM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TripolySunni View Post
    None of those narrations are actually saying Arabs are better than non-Arabs, read them again.

    First one describes from what lineage is our Prophet (saw), doesn't say more than that, Allah chose to favor Quraysh by picking the Prophet (saw) from among them but that doesn't mean they're better, it means he happened to be from them. Allah also chose abu jahl to be from Quraysh and abu lahab from banu Hashim.

    Second one is against racism, it says hating the Arabs is a sign of hypocrisy, as if the Messenger (saw) knew many non-Arabs would embrace Islam and act with racism and hatred or jealousy towards them. (Which did happen, check Iran and Turkey) There's also narrations that are anti-racism in general, so the ruling is general.

    Third one says his generation was the best generation, nothing to do with Arab superiority.

    CORRECTION, second narration says "Hating the Arabs is a sign of Hypocrisy" Not "Disbelief".


    Quoting:
    >>>>>>What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest<<<<<<<


    ^^^Thats clearcut Arab Supremacy in the name of Religion.

    It goes against Quran and Hadiths.

    In truth if prophethood is sign of supremacy then we can say Hebrews are better than Arabs because Hebrews had many other major prophets, Arabs only had two or four prophets and one messenger pbuh.


    Anyways i stick with Allah's Words that humans excell other humans through Taqwa(not lineage or being arab, hebrew , japanese, western, nigerian).
    Last edited by ForeverMonotheist1; 03-03-16 at 06:52 PM.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Ibn Taymiyyah actually elaborates on why he thinks Arabs are better in that same book, he says because their tongue is the most eloquent and greatest, it contains many meanings with the least amount of words, they are more generous and have strong logic, they have higher morals etc... He lists a bunch of things if anyone is interested they can go to that same book of his or read here:

    وسبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل . وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة


    Now what should be clarified is that this isn't a "Salafi" thing, some of you said "Ibn Taymiyyah said so and so, how will the Salafis respond!?" As if everything the man says is the established position.

    Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

    أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

    [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

    He says:

    ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

    [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

    It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

    It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

    That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by TripolySunni View Post
    Ibn Taymiyyah actually elaborates on why he thinks Arabs are better in that same book, he says because their tongue is the most eloquent and greatest, it contains many meanings with the least amount of words, they are more generous and have strong logic, they have higher morals etc... He lists a bunch of things if anyone is interested they can go to that same book of his or read here:

    وسبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل . وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة


    Now what should be clarified is that this isn't a "Salafi" thing, some of you said "Ibn Taymiyyah said so and so, how will the Salafis respond!?" As if everything the man says is the established position.

    Al-Albani who is also a big Salafi when commenting on this weak narration:

    أنا عربي ، و القرآن عربي ، و لسان أهل الجنة عربي

    [He (saw) said: I am an Arab, the Qur'an is Arabic and the tongue of the dwellers of heaven is Arabic.]

    He says:

    ومما يدل على بطلان نسبة هذا الحديث إليه صلى الله عليه وسلم أن فيه افتخاره صلى الله عليه وسلم بعروبته و هذا شيء غريب في الشرع الإسلامي لا يلتئم مع قوله تعالى إن أكرمكم عند الله أتقاكم و قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم لا فضل لعربي على عجمي ... إلا بالتقوى ولا مع نهيه صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الافتخار بالآباء وهو قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن الله عز وجل أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية و فخرها بالآباء ، الناس بنو آدم ، و آدم من تراب ، مؤمن تقي و فاجر شقي ، لينتهين أقوام يفتخرون برجال إنما هم فحم من فحم جهنم ، أو ليكونن أهون على الله من الجعلان التي تدفع النتن بأفواها

    [What proves the corruption of this attribution to the Prophet (saw) is that it contains boasting about the lineage and that he (saw) boasts about his Arabism and this is an odd thing to do according to Islamic law.

    It disagrees with Allah's words {Surely the noblest among you in the sight of God is the most godfearing} and with his own words (saw): "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab except in piety

    It also conflicts with the Prophet's (saw) instructions on the impermissibility of boasting about one's forefathers, he (saw) said: "Allah most high has removed from you the shame of ignorance and their (habit of) boasting about their fathers. The people are all Adam's (as) children and Adam (as) is from dust, (the people are) a pious believer and a wicked sinner. Those of you boasting about men who are fuel for hell-fire should desist otherwise they will certainly be more insignificant before Allah than the beetle that rolls dung with its nose."]

    That's Albani's words and he's more Salafi than Ibn Taymiyyah who was a Hanbali.
    I don't know about the bolded bit. In pre-Islamic times some behaviors of Arabian people was really bad, like idol worship, oppressing the poor, tribalism, zina. read about it in the sealed nectar. Isn't it Islam that gave them higher morals? Wouldn't you find great cultures and history in most Muslim nations, and hospitality, respect and high manners too?
    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid_ View Post
    That looks like something directly out of mein-kampf.

    And if it is obligatory to accept the superiority of the Arab race, why hasn't the prophet (SAW) said anything on the matter? Is this not an act of taking scholars as your lords, when Allah (SWT) and his messenger (SAW) have already ruled on this and that there is no superiority?
    ‘…Indeed Allaah chose Bani Kinaanah from the offspring of Ismaa’eel, and chose Quraysh from Bani Kinaanah, and chose Bani Haashim from Quraysh, and chose me from Bani Haashim.’ [Saheeh at-Tirmithee #3606]


    /thread
    Before you ask a question: https://islamqa.info/en

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    bump. In connection to Najdi thread going on.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
    They are superior. Not in the sense everyone assumes, but they're clearly far more superior than any ethnicity in spreading the deen.

    Now ofcourse, any Arabic speaking non-Arab can be vastly superior than any Arab for that matter.

    of course, this logic seems to be losing its meaning though..Gotta admit.

    Specially since the last "openings" were done by non-arabs.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

  30. #69
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Would like to hear what Spicen and Bidrohi would say about this
    If following Aḥmad makes me a 'Wahhābī', then I declare that I am one.

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    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muwahid_ View Post
    When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

    Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

    He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

    “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

    Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


    Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

    And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

    And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

    “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



    Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2...e-master-race/
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
    that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim." (sahih al bukhari)


    can you explain this hadith please ?

  32. #71
    Insert clever title here Foodadad's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    There are some excellent posts in here, if only one has the capacity, patience, and understanding to go through them. Unfortunately you can also find silly arrogance in this thread, but masha Allah they are easy to spot and evidently foolish compared to the other posts.

    UF has definitely lost some excellent members, a lot from before when I joined it seems.

  33. #72
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Arab's aren't superior. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
    true say son

  34. #73
    😈 Al-Wahhābī 😈 Linkdeutscher's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: "Indeed Allah has chosen Isma'il from the children of Ibrahim, and He chose Banu Kinanah from the children of Isma'il, and He chose the Quraish from Banu Kinanah, and He chose Banu Hashim from Quraish, and He chose me from Banu Hashim." (sahih al bukhari)


    can you explain this hadith please ?
    What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

  35. #74
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    So according to the logic of those who disagree with the Ijmaa' as claimed by Ibn Taymiyyah and Harb al-Kirmani and hereto not challenged by any other scholars, it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs, or all nations and races are equal to Arabs.

    This logic also permits the saying that English is better than Arabic and French culture is better than Arab culture.

    There isn't a well-recognized scholar of Fiqh, Hadith or Tafseer that would allow saying the above things.

    Again, the issue is being conflated, back and forth, between individual merit and the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacies that are innate to whole groups of people.

    In this way, the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacy that is "Arabness" inherently involves classical Arabic, Islamic customs and Islamic etiquette. Does that mean that every Arab is a good representative of that legacy or even Muslim?

    No.

    What it means is that you cannot take the linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacy of the Mexicans [or any other non-Arab group] and say it is better than or equal to that of the Arabs.

    Anyone who says so is denying the superiority of a group of people whose legacy includes the language of the Quran, Sunnah and Islamic legal tradition as well as the customs, laws and norms of the Muslims.

    Mexican linguistic, cultural and behavioral legacies are inherently filled with Shirk, Kufr, unhygienic behavior, improper relations, languages which render Islamic texts unintelligible, inappropriate clothing, hairstyles and interactions, celebrations, and a host of other Haraam and corrupt practices when compared to the legacy of the Arabs.

    These legacies transcend time, place and ethnicity.

    Ibn Taymiyyah himself discusses "Arabness" and allows for the "Arabization" of non-Arabs through the adoption of Arab language, culture and behavior.

    Even modern secular linguistics make similarly relevant arguments about how language transforms and dictates worldview.

    Often the people who object to this perspective on the superiority of Arabs over non-Arabs, don't realize that their objection is specifically proportional to the level of secularism they adhere to in this area. It is a secular principle of "pluralism" that promotes the idea that all races, cultures, national origins and religions are equal.

    There isn't a single nation in the world that codifies this idea into law that actually implements or enforces its practice. This is how a "secular" nation like Belgium can outlaw religious clothing. This is how a "secular" nation like the USA can profile individuals based on the linguistic origin of names. So a non-Arab individual will be stopped in an airport or other public place and subjected to harassment just because they have an Arabic name.

    It's also strange that ever since the European Christians colonized the world and established hegemonic dominance over much of the world, that they did away with their long-time principle that "white" and "Christian" was superior to all the other races. And it is only when these "white Christians" feel threatened in their privilege and dominance that they rally again behind this principle of their superiority. This is evidence with the recent resurgence of truly racist political parties and demagogues in the West like Trump, La Penn, Wilders, etc.

    The Islamic principle that Arabs are superior to non-Arabs has been around for over 1,000 years and it has never produced a single instance of Islamic law-inspired and racially motivated injustice against a single individual. "Democracy" on the other hand has been around for more than 1,000 years and since its inception, until the present day, it does not cease to produce the most racist and unjust societies ever in existence.

    Strange how the way of life which insists on the racial superiority of one group over all others has produced the most just and truly prosperous multi-ethnic societies, while the way of life that professes the equality of all races produces the most unjust and racist of societies. It is no accident.

  36. #75
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
    The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

    Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

    Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

    Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

    The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

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    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.
    doesn't this hadith prove that Allah has chose Ismael and his offspring ?

    doesn't that mean they are better than others ?

  38. #77
    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuNajm View Post
    The Istifaa' of Allah conveys "preference", "superiority" and "priority". So when the Prophet SAWS said that Allah "chose" the Arabs, and then the Quraysh, this is understood by all Islamic scholarship to mean that they have "superiority".

    Allah chose Muhammad SAWS and this is why we call him SAWS "al-Mustafaa". This "choosing" made him SAWS superior to all other Prophets.

    Allah chose "Islam": {...and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.}[5:3] That is why Islam is superior to all other religions.

    Denying the "preference" Allah has placed in something is to deny the "superiority" that Allah gave to it and this is to deny Allah.

    The Hadith of Allah's 'choosing' the Arabs is precisely the proof that every scholar uses to prove the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. Stating that it is not proof or that its correct explanation opposes this or that Ayah or Hadith is childish.

    Exactly!

    and about evidences that show there's no preference but only in taqwaa..

    we say there's no conflict between them

    because preference of arabs comes when they are equal in taqwa and deen.
    Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 22-09-17 at 07:24 PM.

  39. #78
    Insert clever title here Foodadad's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    doesn't this hadith prove that Allah has chose Ismael and his offspring ?

    doesn't that mean they are better than others ?
    Remember the du'a Ibrahim :as: made? The response was that the du'a is accepted, but only for the righteous among them.

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    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foodadad View Post
    Remember the du'a Ibrahim :as: made? The response was that the du'a is accepted, but only for the righteous among them.

    yes that's why If there's a scholar from non arab and a normal muslim from arab

    the scholar is better than that normal muslim..

    but what if they are equal in taqwaa and deen and knowledge?

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    Al-Hanbali Abu-Sufyaan's Avatar
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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    What is there to explain? It doesn't prove anything with regards to Arabs being better than non Arabs.

    Btw Link...
    Do you also disagree with the ijmaa that the khalifa should be from quraysh?

    I see this issue is also similar to our topic here.

    Same question for brother @Muwahid_
    Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 22-09-17 at 07:58 PM.

 

 

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