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  1. #1
    Lost in the journey ... Brother Hassan's Avatar
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    Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Guys Whats Your Opinion About The Following 2 People :-

    (1) - Allama Muhammad Iqbal

    (2) - Sir Syed Ahmed Khan

    Please Support Your Opinions With Arguments ???

    ( I've Started This Post To Clear All This Confusion In My Head Soo I Hope U Guys Participate )

  2. #2
    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Are you into some research of past Muslim Intellectuals of the Subcontinent ?

    There are going to be some in favour and some critical . I havent read most of Muhammad Iqbal's works and as for Syed Ahmed Khan there are charges that he was a Hadith rejector .

    Though personally I would say neither of them were Scholars of Islam and cannot be the best of examples of Muslim Leadership .

    Allahualam.
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

  3. #3
    wal 'aqibatulil muttaqeen Uthman Ibn Afan's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    I heard in a lecture that Syed Ahmed Khan was one of the first modernists...
    http://kondori.wordpress.com/

    HasbunAllah Wani'mal Wakeel | حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل
    Allah is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs.

    "...its better to light a small candle than to curse the darkness..."

    Salātullāhi wa Salāmuhu Ďalayka ya Rasūlallāh





  4. #4
    Lost in the journey ... Brother Hassan's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    Are you into some research of past Muslim Intellectuals of the Subcontinent ?
    Nah ... Actually ... I'm From Paki ... & Everyone Has Such A Different View Of These Guys That Its All Kinda Confusing ... & ... Then There Are The Secularist Who Use Them For Promoting There Own Ideas ... So I Was Wondering ... WHATS THE TRUTH ???

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    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Hassan View Post
    Nah ... Actually ... I'm From Paki ... & Everyone Has Such A Different View Of These Guys That Its All Kinda Confusing ... & ... Then There Are The Secularist Who Use Them For Promoting There Own Ideas ... So I Was Wondering ... WHATS THE TRUTH ???
    Its mostly sufi secularists who quote these two . Quoting them or Jinnah or Abul Kalam Azad or Liaqat ali Khan or Zia ul Haq etc does not serve any purpose at all .

    Cause we Muslims are so influenced by a certain group of Scholars or Philosophers that we feel their view of an Islamic state is the best way .

    We keep forgetting that when anything contradicts the commands of Allah (swt) and the sunnah of Rasulallah then we have to throw it into the dustbin however wide his knowledge is .
    Last edited by Abdul-Curim; 16-09-10 at 05:57 PM.
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Allama Iqbal was a devout muslim. His poetry is summarising important religeous points. In fact verses of the quran have been explained in his poetry.

    "Meri naway pareshan ko shai'ree na samajh
    ke me hoon mahrame raaze daroone mekhana"

    Some his poetry is very deep and the best I have ever read eveeerrr.

    One poem he wrote is Shikwa (complaint) which is a complaint that why are the muslims around the worlkd subject to so much zulm.
    He gives the answer in jawab-e-shikwa (response to complaint) the reason is that muslims have turned their back on deen. They call themselves muslim but there is no solid practice. Muslims conventiently accept what they want and reject what they want.

    This is very much relevent today ALOT of muslims who devour interest, have haraam source of earnings, lie , cheat, sing and dance in the name of religion the list goes on. etc etc

    Kisi yakjaee say ehad e ghulame kar lo
    air millat e Ahmad (SW) ko maqame kar lo

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    These two are the some of the greatest Muslim Indian thinkers.

    Some how some one hijaak them for their own neferous agenda.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by mundo View Post
    Allama Iqbal was a devout muslim. His poetry is summarising important religeous points. In fact verses of the quran have been explained in his poetry.

    "Meri naway pareshan ko shai'ree na samajh
    ke me hoon mahrame raaze daroone mekhana"

    Some his poetry is very deep and the best I have ever read eveeerrr.

    One poem he wrote is Shikwa (complaint) which is a complaint that why are the muslims around the worlkd subject to so much zulm.
    He gives the answer in jawab-e-shikwa (response to complaint) the reason is that muslims have turned their back on deen. They call themselves muslim but there is no solid practice. Muslims conventiently accept what they want and reject what they want.

    This is very much relevent today ALOT of muslims who devour interest, have haraam source of earnings, lie , cheat, sing and dance in the name of religion the list goes on. etc etc

    Kisi yakjaee say ehad e ghulame kar lo
    air millat e Ahmad (SW) ko maqame kar lo
    That to me is the most accurate appraisal of the great poet Sir Muhammad Iqbal.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Salahuddin was a sufi muslim ak's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    From what i have heard Allama Iqbal's early work is more secular, but during the ending of his life he was more religious and therefore his latter work is more religious...

    therefore used buy both religious and secularist, a bit like Muhammed Ali Jinnah..

    'Sir' Syed Ahmed Khan was some dodgy dude according to many people
    My eyes have not seen anybody as beautiful as Yourself.
    No mother has given birth to a child as beautiful as Yourself.
    You have been created without any defects,
    It seems that Allah has created You the way You wanted to be created
    .

    Hassaan bin Thaabit Radiyallahu anho praising the Prophet peace be upon him

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    You need to listen to some of Allama Mohammed Iqbals poetry, some of it is really heart warming, and some of it is how muslims will defeat there enemies inshallah

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Illama Iqbal is pretty solid, i would say he is more of a Muslim thinker than a scholar, because he did not give fatwas but he discussed political and intellectual topics like Capitalism vs Communism vs Islam and Democracy vs Khilafah
    which most Muslims were ignorant about. He was also one of the key pioneers behind the Muslim independence movement and really put his foot down on the issue that Muslims cannot live with Mushriq hindus.
    "And remind, for indeed, the reminder benefits the believers"(51:55)


    The Snake and Malik ibn Dinar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOfrNtDw5Yc

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    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim ak View Post
    From what i have heard Allama Iqbal's early work is more secular, but during the ending of his life he was more religious and therefore his latter work is more religious...

    therefore used buy both religious and secularist, a bit like Muhammed Ali Jinnah..

    'Sir' Syed Ahmed Khan was some dodgy dude according to many people
    Aye , Recently I was reading about Muhammad Iqbal and discovered that He became a Muwahhid in the last decade of his life and gained more Islamic knowledge .

    As for Sir Syed Ahmed Khan he is accused of being an Inkar-e-Sunnah sect member ( the quraniyoon ) and was knighted by the British royals to change the mindset of the Indian Muslims to suit secular-democratic principles through the University He established .

    And interestingly it is from the corridors of his University that the Founding Fathers of Pakistan operated .
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

  16. #16
    Senior Member karu-89's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    Aye , Recently I was reading about Muhammad Iqbal and discovered that He became a Muwahhid in the last decade of his life and gained more Islamic knowledge .

    As for Sir Syed Ahmed Khan he is accused of being an Inkar-e-Sunnah sect member ( the quraniyoon ) and was knighted by the British royals to change the mindset of the Indian Muslims to suit secular-democratic principles through the University He established .

    And interestingly it is from the corridors of his University that the Founding Fathers of Pakistan operated .
    yes brother but that doesnt mean that Muhammad Ali Jinnah was also Hadith Rejector (Astaghfirullah) , we should fear ALLAH SWT ,

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    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by karu-89 View Post
    yes brother but that doesnt mean that Muhammad Ali Jinnah was also Hadith Rejector (Astaghfirullah) , we should fear ALLAH SWT ,
    Jinnah was not a good practising Muslim . If He is then prove it .

    Jinnah was a shia who became a Sunni later on for reasons not known .
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    I know that Syed Ahmad Khan was an educator ... and thats all I know lol

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    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibn Sina View Post
    I know that Syed Ahmad Khan was an educator ... and thats all I know lol
    His University was a movement in itself , to brainwash the Indian Muslims to adapt themselves to a change in the socio-political-economic system as being infused by the British Colonialists in India .

    Sartaj Aziz the well known Pak Senator from peshawar said the Pakistani Taliban are extremists and Pakistan was born out of a moderate version of Islam as practised by the Barelwis and propagated by the Aligarh movement .

    He is on record for saying that .Which is quite obvious Jinnah the father of the Pakistan Nation was not Islamic but a secular agent of the British .

    Pakistani Nationalists donot argue with me just call up Sartaj Aziz and ask him what did he mean by that ?

    L.K. Advani , the Hindi right wing former Deputy Prime Minister of India on his visit to Pakistanin 2005 called Jinnah as a secular Leader and the whole world heard that and yet Pak media never countered it .
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    There are two major contributions of sir syed ahmed khan to put ummah back on track.

    a)education of ummah for its survival. All educated muslims from india owe it to sir syed ahmed khan.

    b)the principle that natural world works naturally so laws of nature must never be opposed and the proper interpretation of the quran is only that which is based upon real world realities not fiction, myth, legend, magic, mystery and superstition.

    He opposed mullahism as well as secularism of ruling elite based upon capitalism. He knew more than a few languages eg urdu, arabic, persian, english, hindi, punjabi etc.



    Coming to iqbal, his major contributions are discovery of the fact that muslim imperialists deconstructed original concept of islam to suit themselves and that original islam could be reconstructed by using the quranic text itself. He too knew more than a few languages eg urdu, arabic, persian, english, punjabi, hindi etc.

    Once he realised the original concept of islam, it dawned on him that it cannot be fully practised without a piece of land under its jurisdiction. It is this realisation that brought him to idea of creation of pakistan. The idea was not to create a country in sense of nation state but to create a piece of land with islamic government as show case to show the world what islam looks like in practice. Unfortunately he died nearly a decade earlier but he managed to prepare a man to take his idea forward and that man was mr m a jinnah.

    The creation of pakistan was opposed by all the mullahs save a few. There was a major battle between all the mullahs on one side and iqbal, jinnah and parwez on the other. The creation of pakistan was opposed by the british, by hindus and by mullahs. How pakistan was created under such circumstances was nothing less than a miracle.

    Pakistan was created on basis of two nation theory ie islam and anti islam systems of government. The original sources about it exist in urdue but very little in english. The reason is that after creation of paksitan, the country was taken over by the very elements against whom the creators of paksitan fought in united india ie mullahs and secularists.

    The movement was supposed to be based on a few steps eg first refine the concept of islam and create two nation theoiy then convince muslims about it and then fight to get a piece of land and once land is there implement the right concept of islam in the land. Thereafter work hard to make the idea a success so that other muslim nation states could follow and then let nonmuslims see what islam looks like in practice so that they too use it their lands and the world becomes united as per principles of islam.

    Unfortunately after pakistan became independent the founder of paksitan also died, leaving field free for mullahs and ruling elite to do as they pleased with little opposition from odd people.

    The ressult, the wrong concept of islam was brought back by collaboration between mullahs and the ruling class. It is because this is the way world was always ruled by these two groups ie mullahs ruled people in the name of religion and kings ruled people in the name of country. This is where the concept of separation between religion and state comes from if we study history.

    Two nation theory is simply about rule by God v rule by kings and priests or now rule by ruling elite and priests.

    Islam that is wide spread is backed by priests and rulers therefore those who really know real islam have very limited resources to oppose it hence the real islam is not known to very many people.

    People talk about hadith, tafaseer and history books but never stop and think who might have written them or modified them and why? Why islam is preached and publicized so much on basis of hadith and tafaseer books rather than the quran? It is because the quran sets goals for mankind and states some guidelines which do not allow imperialism or master slave relationship between mankind. Islam is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for mankind. These are quranic terms for peace between mankind and anyone who does not accept these terms for peace has been given two choices a)bring better terms for peace or b)fight is on till all opposition to these terms is eliminated.

    The question is, have we understood quran properly?

    more later
    Last edited by Mughal1; 14-10-11 at 01:18 AM.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal1 View Post
    There are two major contributions of sir syed ahmed khan to put ummah back on track.

    a)education of ummah for its survival. All educated muslims from india owe it to sir syed ahmed khan.

    b)the principle that natural world works naturally so laws of nature must never be opposed and the proper interpretation of the quran is only that which is based upon real world realities not fiction, myth, legend, magic, mystery and superstition.

    He opposed mullahism as well as secularism of ruling elite based upon capitalism. He knew more than a few languages eg urdu, arabic, persian, english, hindi, punjabi etc.



    Coming to iqbal, his major contributions are discovery of the fact that muslim imperialists deconstructed original concept of islam to suit themselves and that original islam could be reconstructed by using the quranic text itself. He too knew more than a few languages eg urdu, arabic, persian, english, punjabi, hindi etc.

    Once he realised the original concept of islam, it dawned on him that it cannot be fully practised without a piece of land under its jurisdiction. It is this realisation that brought him to idea of creation of pakistan. The idea was not to create a country in sense of nation state but to create a piece of land with islamic government as show case to show the world what islam looks like in practice. Unfortunately he died nearly a decade earlier but he managed to prepare a man to take his idea forward and that man was mr m a jinnah.

    The creation of pakistan was opposed by all the mullahs save a few. There was a major battle between all the mullahs on one side and iqbal, jinnah and parwez on the other. The creation of pakistan was opposed by the british, by hindus and by mullahs. How pakistan was created under such circumstances was nothing less than a miracle.

    Pakistan was created on basis of two nation theory ie islam and anti islam systems of government. The original sources about it exist in urdue but very little in english. The reason is that after creation of paksitan, the country was taken over by the very elements against whom the creators of paksitan fought in united india ie mullahs and secularists.

    The movement was supposed to be based on a few steps eg first refine the concept of islam and create two nation theoiy then convince muslims about it and then fight to get a piece of land and once land is there implement the right concept of islam in the land. Thereafter work hard to make the idea a success so that other muslim nation states could follow and then let nonmuslims see what islam looks like in practice so that they too use it their lands and the world becomes united as per principles of islam.

    Unfortunately after pakistan became independent the founder of paksitan also died, leaving field free for mullahs and ruling elite to do as they pleased with little opposition from odd people.

    The ressult, the wrong concept of islam was brought back by collaboration between mullahs and the ruling class. It is because this is the way world was always ruled by these two groups ie mullahs ruled people in the name of religion and kings ruled people in the name of country. This is where the concept of separation between religion and state comes from if we study history.

    Two nation theory is simply about rule by God v rule by kings and priests or now rule by ruling elite and priests.

    Islam that is wide spread is backed by priests and rulers therefore those who really know real islam have very limited resources to oppose it hence the real islam is not known to very many people.

    People talk about hadith, tafaseer and history books but never stop and think who might have written them or modified them and why? Why islam is preached and publicized so much on basis of hadith and tafaseer books rather than the quran? It is because the quran sets goals for mankind and states some guidelines which do not allow imperialism or master slave relationship between mankind. Islam is all about freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for mankind. These are quranic terms for peace between mankind and anyone who does not accept these terms for peace has been given two choices a)bring better terms for peace or b)fight is on till all opposition to these terms is eliminated.

    The question is, have we understood quran properly?

    more later
    Pakistan has been ruled by Mullahs ?

    What are you talking about ?? Which Mullah ruled Pakistan ?

    The only time Pakistan got close to Shariah Law was during Zia era, and that was too shortlived to bear any lasting fruit.

    Other from that Islam has played very little role in Governance of Pakistan.
    "And remind, for indeed, the reminder benefits the believers"(51:55)


    The Snake and Malik ibn Dinar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOfrNtDw5Yc

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    Senior Member karu-89's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    Jinnah was not a good practising Muslim . If He is then prove it .

    Jinnah was a shia who became a Sunni later on for reasons not known .
    yes i will proof it brother but i have one question for you , is everyone person whose name is Ali , Hassan , Hussain ,Fatima becomes shias how pathetic , we are slowly becoming Nasibis arent we ?????????? ,

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    Abdul Karim Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by karu-89 View Post
    yes i will proof it brother but i have one question for you , is everyone person whose name is Ali , Hassan , Hussain ,Fatima becomes shias how pathetic , we are slowly becoming Nasibis arent we ?????????? ,

    Nasibi is a term used by these Kafir Raafidah by alleging Muslims who are on the Sunnah dislike the family of Allah's Messenger , whereas ith's them who hate the household of the Prophet by cursing some of the Umm'ul'Mumineen .

    No Pakistani , including its topmost Ulemah would dare to speak a word of criticism against Jinnah due to public outrage . Btw , I gave you proofs from Sartaj Aziz's statements that Pakistan was founded by secular Politicians from the Aligarh Movement and the Barelwi sect.

    And Mr.Sartaj Aziz's remarks inspite of his personal credibility has more authority and validity than the pakistanis on an online forum .
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

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    Odan abu_fulan_fulan's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    why would anyone take anyone seriously who has bowed down then gone bended knee to the british christian monarch to recieve and join one of the christian orders of knighthood?

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    No Pakistani , including its topmost Ulemah would dare to speak a word of criticism against Jinnah due to public outrage . Btw , I gave you proofs from Sartaj Aziz's statements that Pakistan was founded by secular Politicians from the Aligarh Movement and the Barelwi sect.
    your knowledge is very limited.

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, Mufti Shafi Usmani ???????????

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani said the Janaza prayer of Jinnah.

    and btw -- Salafis also quote alot Iqbal's poetry.

    آؤ مل کر کھودیں قبر دل کی
    کمبخت بڑی بڑی خواہشیں کرنے لگا ہے

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Br abdul the usmani clan actually had a lot to do with creation of Pakistan if you read the history and looking at different groups. They were deoband also. And plus you are saying like Pakistan being mainly supported at its foundation by mainly barelvi is a bad thing?

    Don't mix politics with religion so easily. Mumtaz qadri hero of Punjab and who shot salman taseer was part if dawateislami group.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Hassan View Post
    Guys Whats Your Opinion About The Following 2 People :-

    (1) - Allama Muhammad Iqbal

    (2) - Sir Syed Ahmed Khan

    Please Support Your Opinions With Arguments ???

    ( I've Started This Post To Clear All This Confusion In My Head Soo I Hope U Guys Participate )
    It's wrong to talk about deceased Muslims ('bad' talk that is).
    'Nor say of anything,"I shall be sure to do so and so tomorrow" without adding, " if Allah (SWT) Wills" (18:23-24)

    QuranExplorer.com, where you can Listen to the Holy Recitation and Translation online in Arabic and English : http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

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    Senior Member karu-89's Avatar
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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Well i am guessing you are unaware of the Scholar Dr.Israr Ahmad ! because he has given a very well detailed lecture not once but on many occasion proving time and time again that Pakistan was created on Fundamentals of Islam and that the two founders Allama Iqbal and Muhammad Ali Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be run by the same Islamic Rules that were being followed during the Reign of the First 4 Caliphs ! and Regarding Mr.Sartaj Aziz i would suggest u to have a watch of Dr.Israr's lecture and decide for yourself what is the real Truth !

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by imran1976 View Post
    your knowledge is very limited.

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, Mufti Shafi Usmani ???????????

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani said the Janaza prayer of Jinnah.

    and btw -- Salafis also quote alot Iqbal's poetry.
    Dude , Nobody made takfir on Jinnah .

    My knowledge of Pakistan may be poor but your problem is you often fail to understand the things in the right perspective .There are many who make takfir on Musharraf but yet as long as Musharraf recites the Kalimah in public He is a Muslim and gets a right for a Janazah salah .

    My point was , no Scholar in Pakistan even if they hate him in private circles would dare speak a word against him in public .

    As for Muhammad Iqbal He was against grave worship and a Man of tawheed who was also against blind taqleed inspite of being a Hanafi .
    Where there are no Ulemah(Scholars) there are many Muftis.

    I
    deal System of Living for All Mankind .

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    Dude , Nobody made takfir on Jinnah .

    My knowledge of Pakistan may be poor but your problem is you often fail to understand the things in the right perspective .There are many who make takfir on Musharraf but yet as long as Musharraf recites the Kalimah in public He is a Muslim and gets a right for a Janazah salah .

    My point was , no Scholar in Pakistan even if they hate him in private circles would dare speak a word against him in public .

    As for Muhammad Iqbal He was against grave worship and a Man of tawheed who was also against blind taqleed inspite of being a Hanafi .
    there is a difference regarding jinnah, as some people claim he wanted shariah but didn't get chance to put it into practice before he died, but busharaf has no right to a janazah salaah, or to be buried in a muslim graveyeard and he is about as clear a murtad as is possible to be.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    I don't think jinnah and murtad busharraf should me mentioned in the right sentence.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by mundo View Post
    ..Some his poetry is very deep and the best I have ever read eveeerrr.

    One poem he wrote is Shikwa (complaint) which is a complaint that why are the muslims around the worlkd subject to so much zulm.
    He gives the answer in jawab-e-shikwa (response to complaint) the reason is that muslims have turned their back on deen. They call themselves muslim but there is no solid practice. Muslims conventiently accept what they want and reject what they want.

    This is very much relevent today ALOT of muslims who devour interest, have haraam source of earnings, lie , cheat, sing and dance in the name of religion the list goes on. etc etc

    Kisi yakjaee say ehad e ghulame kar lo
    air millat e Ahmad (SW) ko maqame kar lo
    more like Allah's response, it's a controversial work of his [some add shikwa to controversial list too]
    "We have a a history to be proud of and a future to believe in.."

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by yassin' View Post
    Pakistan has been ruled by Mullahs ?

    What are you talking about ?? Which Mullah ruled Pakistan ?

    The only time Pakistan got close to Shariah Law was during Zia era, and that was too shortlived to bear any lasting fruit.

    Other from that Islam has played very little role in Governance of Pakistan.
    Are you not aware of rule of mullahs? I am surprised. No muslim can say or do anything unless mullahs in the land agree. Mullahs rule minds of people just like kings rule people by controlling land and its resources or livelihood of people.

    In secular states mullahs have set up their parallel shariah courts. Handling all affairs regarding personal and family laws eg india and uk. They knew the country iqba wanted to create will have no room for mullah power over people that is why they opposed its creation.

    Mullahs have created a parallel islam concept to what is stated in the quran. A power division since time of old. Hope you can put two and two together ie what is meant by rule of mullahs.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by imran1976 View Post
    your knowledge is very limited.

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, Mufti Shafi Usmani ???????????

    Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani said the Janaza prayer of Jinnah.

    and btw -- Salafis also quote alot Iqbal's poetry.
    You have excluded ashraf ali thanvi, peer syed jamaat ali shah, peer mehr ali shah. Of course almost all religious leaders opposed but a few did come to support the creators of pakistan. However things changed drastically when hindus started fighting with muslims and from then on a huge majority began supporting creation of paksitan. Even those who opposed creation of paksitan then many moved to settle in pakistan eg mamood al hassan thanvi, mawdoodi etc.

    After coming to paksitan they went on offensive fighting the concept of islam that was given by sir syed, iqbal, jinnah, parwez etc and regain their power in pakistan as well. Seeing mullahs upto their old tricks the ruling classes also moved in to secure their position in pakistan. In this power struggle between ruling elite and mullahs the concept of proper became vitim once more and so this ideologically created state ended up being a secualr state having name of islam only for show. It is a very sad story and now the rssult is seen all over pakistan as ruling elite and mullahs make more people victims of their greed for power and wealth.

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    Dude , Nobody made takfir on Jinnah .

    My knowledge of Pakistan may be poor but your problem is you often fail to understand the things in the right perspective .There are many who make takfir on Musharraf but yet as long as Musharraf recites the Kalimah in public He is a Muslim and gets a right for a Janazah salah .

    My point was , no Scholar in Pakistan even if they hate him in private circles would dare speak a word against him in public .

    As for Muhammad Iqbal He was against grave worship and a Man of tawheed who was also against blind taqleed inspite of being a Hanafi .
    To understand iqbal one has to understand his stand point on islam. He was simply put anti sectarian muslim. He believed it is mullahs who have created sectism in islam for their own benefit. Jinnah was student of iqbal for a fews years as regard concept of islam. After a long discussion jinnah accepted that iqbals view point as regard islam was the proper one. Before that jinnah was musalman like any other musalman.

    This is original source material as regard creation of pakistan but it is in urdu.

    Alaama Parwez on ptv about iqbal and jinnah

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnbtB...eature=related

    jang interview, part of alaama parwez in creation of paksitan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwA0...eature=related

    TEHRIKE PAKISTAN KI HAQIQI JANG

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDk3w...eature=related

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal1 View Post
    To understand iqbal one has to understand his stand point on islam. He was simply put anti sectarian muslim. He believed it is mullahs who have created sectism in islam for their own benefit. Jinnah was student of iqbal for a fews years as regard concept of islam. After a long discussion jinnah accepted that iqbals view point as regard islam was the proper one. Before that jinnah was musalman like any other musalman.

    This is original source material as regard creation of pakistan but it is in urdu.

    Alaama Parwez on ptv about iqbal and jinnah

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnbtB...eature=related

    jang interview, part of alaama parwez in creation of paksitan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwA0...eature=related

    TEHRIKE PAKISTAN KI HAQIQI JANG

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDk3w...eature=related
    do you know who this guy pervezi was ??????????? he was a Hadith Rejector , he used to say that the word Salah means society and not prayer how silly isnt it ?????????? but this was the belief of your pervezi so how can we trust his word on Muhammad Ali Jinnah (Rahimullah) and Muhammad IQBAL (Rehmatullaleh) ?????????? , Pakistan was made for Sharia and INSHALLAH Sharia will be implemented in Pakistan whether you guys like it or not is another issue

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul-Curim View Post
    My point was , no Scholar in Pakistan even if they hate him in private circles would dare speak a word against him in public .

    As for Muhammad Iqbal He was against grave worship and a Man of tawheed who was also against blind taqleed inspite of being a Hanafi .
    there's a world of difference between assumptions & realities - you can always study the history and find out the relationships between Jinnah & Scholars and what views Scholars had for him.

    آؤ مل کر کھودیں قبر دل کی
    کمبخت بڑی بڑی خواہشیں کرنے لگا ہے

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Mughal1 View Post
    You have excluded ashraf ali thanvi, peer syed jamaat ali shah, peer mehr ali shah. Of course almost all religious leaders opposed but a few did come to support the creators of pakistan. However things changed drastically when hindus started fighting with muslims and from then on a huge majority began supporting creation of paksitan. Even those who opposed creation of paksitan then many moved to settle in pakistan eg mamood al hassan thanvi, mawdoodi etc.
    Maulana Maududi was not against the creation of Pakistan.

    آؤ مل کر کھودیں قبر دل کی
    کمبخت بڑی بڑی خواہشیں کرنے لگا ہے

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Can you guys tell me more about Maulana Maududi? Are his books/texts legit? I came across a book and it was something like 'Qur'aan: the four concepts', I bought it but I was told by an Alim that I shouldn't read his books, that he rejected dajjal, and insulted Sahaba. Apparently the tafseer that was written by Maulana Maududi also had things about how dajjal doesn't really exist, but after his death those parts of the commentary were taken out and replaced with explanations that Dajjal is real. When I spoke to the owner of an Islamic bookshop, he had the complete opposite view.

    So what's the case? What's so controversial about him?

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    Re: Allama Iqbal & Sir Syed Ahmed Khan ???

    Have we understood the quran properly?

    The quran is collection of 114 Surahs. Each Surah has a name. The first Surah in the quran is called AL-FAATIHA. The question is, why is surah Al Faatiha called by this name?

    SURAH AL FATIHA=The Divine Proclamation is called by this name because the quran is a message and this message is from someone to someone. It is necessary that sender of the message introduces himself and then tells us the purpose of the message. Surah AL-FAATIHA serves this purpose.

    In olden times when a king wanted to make any public announcement or declaration, he used to send out his criers who would let public know what the king wants them to know.

    Allah sent his messengers and told them what to announce to mankind in the name of Allah.

    1)in the name of Allah, the gracious , the merciful that

    2)Sovereignty belongs to Allah the sustainer of the world

    3)the gracious, the merciful

    4)The one with sole right to rule in the jurisdiction of the universe (the only one by whose laws all things are governed in the universe and the same is needed to be done by people ie they too must abide by rule, law and judgement of Allah)

    If we look at the interpretation of the quran this way then we can see that Allah leaves us in no doubt as to who he is and what right he has to do as he pleases and why we must live by his guidance.

    Please look up for meaning of word ILAAH=God=KHUDAA. It means ruler of the universe. Setting up any other ruler in the kingdom of Allah is therefore like creating other gods. Which is therefore called SHIRK, the unforgivable crime in sight of Allah against humanity.


    This is just first half of the very first surah of the quran.

    Basically this is a double declaration ie an agreement between Allah and mankind.


    We are supposed to confirm that we will not serve any other ruler and seek any help we need from Allah alone by way of his revealed guidance. So help us to the path that is firmly founded. The path that was walked upon by those before us who benefited by following the divine advice and they suffered not indignation because they went not astray.

    As is clear from the explanation that Allah is not some kind of monster to be feared but a father figure who advises mankind like his children as to how they should live in this world to remain safe from all sorts of consequential troubles. The quran is all about Allah's explanation for us as to why he created universe, how he created it and how it works and then an advice for mankind that we should learn all this and try our best to fit-in in the divine scheme of things. In short like a good father tells his children about his family business as to how he has set up things for their benefit so that they understand and fit in the business to benefit from it, Allah too is telling people to be sensible and get on with life in this world as told so that you have better life in hereafter.


    Have we at all bothered to understand the quran properly?

    As one can see from interpretation of surah al faatiha, the quran is not about make beliefs and ritualisms rather it is about establishing the divine rule of law in the divine kingdom for the good of mankind and that is so because if there is peace in the out side world then there can be peace in your country, in your city, in your house and in side yourself. In this surah Allah is advising people like a father figure, letting them know that this is how I have set up my business so if you understand it and then work in it then you will not suffer but if you ignore my advice then you will mess up things from the way I have set them up and then as a result you will suffer the consequences so it is better for you not to do things that will lead you to pain and suffering and destruction by your own hands.

    The quran declares war on religion and secularism both but the question is why? It is because religion is all about theocracy ie accepting the rule by mullahs and secularism is all about accepting the rule by ruling elite to further their capitalism and fre market idea at the expense of humanity. According to the quran both are root of all harm and destruction in the world and that is exactly what we are seeing even today and we can see the same thing from our history books. These are undeniable facts. This proves to us how right the quran was and how wrong are mankind who do not take the advice of God seriously. The quranic advice is to establish divine rule of law and all live by it as a single family caring and sharing. Allah has created this world for people to test themselves as to how much they can struggle and what can they establish for the good of each other. Those who work hard in this struggle for survival with intact dignity will shine brilliantly and those who are hell bent on destroying each other face doom and gloom in this life as well as in hereafter.

    The purpose of divine revelations is to help mankind learn how and why to establish the divine kingdom here on the earth. It is all about Allah telling mankind how to live in this world so that people could have a great life because Allah created universe and set it up to work and explains all this in the quran very clearly so that we understand things and fit in. It is in a way like good parents giving a good advice to their kids and if kids are also good they make good use of this advice.

    The point is that if there is no divine kingdom then nothing else can work because either you have stability or you have instability. So the world can be like a lawless jungle or a blissful garden, it all depends on whether we want law and order or lawlessness and destruction. When humanity is in chaos then nothing else can be established because instability does not allow it. You grow crops putting hard effort in it but when it is ready some one comes along and takes it away or destroys it. Or you are sitting in a car which keeps starting and stopping and changing speed the while you are trying to do something thing eg draw a picture. This instability will cause you problems ie it will not let you do thing as you would be able to if you were sitting in peace in a stable environment. It is for this reason islam puts emphasis on stability ie peace. If there is peace in the outside world then there could be peace in the country you live in and peace in the city you live in and peace in the house you live in.

    Peace or war either come from outside inwards or goes from inside outwards. This means that people must keep their eyes open and not let anything or anyone disturb peace or instability will destroy whatever comes in its way. Even if we have instability already we must contain it and bring about the peaceful state. So committing ourselves to peace and working for it is absolutely vital if humanity is at all to survive and live a life worth living. The quran is full of verses that tell us do this. The quran therefore must be understood in this context and not in any other useless context that makes absolutely no sense.

    The divine messengers do not come to teach us things which we learn from our own life experience but to give us heavenly set goals to achieve according to heavenly guidelines ie moral values that are otherwise impossible to have. Islam is not for doing so called spiritual things in the hope of hereafter which make no sense but it is about how people should learn to live in this world so that they could turn this world in to a blissful garden for themselves. Allah has provided people with everything they will ever need and he gave them his advice in form of information so that people could create a world of their own out of it using their brains and bodies. Allah set people goals eg to achieve freedom, justice, fairness, compassion, brotherhood, progress and prosperity for mankind as a whole in the name of God so that they are rewarded with even better life in hereafter. The guidelines are obvious eg don't kill each other, don't hurt each other, don't steal from each other etc etc. So if we do not read the quran to understand it purposefully then we are wasting our lives and efforts. So if we don't learn the quran properly and teach it to others properly then we cannot come together as one people so we cannot create a better society and so can remain in pain and suffering.

    We knew how to survive even with out divine messengers and we are doing that even today but just like animals nothing more. What we lacked was sense of proper goals that lead to peace and guidelines that teach us how to achieve those goals ie how to live properly and prosper. All living things are surviving but we have been given special brains, freewill, the divine revelations and are told to make effort to the best of our abilities to establish divine goals according to given guidelines. This is definition of deen or if you like the bigger picture. Deen is not mazhab because mazhab separates man and god from the real world and real world issues. Islam is therefore deen not mazhab. So islamic struggle is all about establishing islam=peace and prosperity in the world and nonmuslim struggle is survival of the fittest to take advantage of others and that means establishing instability and war in the world. Deen is divine but mazhab on the other hand is an invented thing nothing at all to do with divine revelation. It was invented to derail people from deen. The questions we need to ask ourselves are;

    1)Who invented mazhab? 2)Why? 3)when? 4)how?

    Mazhab was invented by people who sought some benefit from it ie imperialists, whom deen stopped from creating castes and classes to set people against each other to take advantage of them ie divide by confusing them and then take over and rule them or use and abuse them. By getting deen out of their way they could divide their people into castes and classes and thereby they could justify their use and abuse for their own ends in the name of God. For this reason emperors created priestly classes and set them the task of brain washing masses of people so that people become like work horses or slave labour for them. Mazhabs were therefore deliberately set up as ritualisms so that people could be made fool of in the name of God. Religions=mazhabs are therefore controlling mechanisms which kings used to control their masses through priests and used them for their own purposes as hunters use their dogs to hunt for themselves. This is how kings and priests enjoyed using and abusing ordinary masses. This is well explained by socialist writers and some videos can be seen on that on youtube.

    This also shows why kings built grand religious institutions and placed therein their own priests who furthered their own agendas rather than building educational institutions to educate their masses for their own good or building hospitals and other things for them to make their lives better. Mazhabs were a way invented to give people satisfaction without letting them have what was/is their birthright in material terms. DEEN V MAZHAB is an issue of such importance that needs a lot of explanation unless one is well familiar with various religions and secularism as well as various political, social, cultural and economic ideologies, systems, structures and practices.

    Mazhab is therefore make belief and full of myths, mysteries, magical stories, legends, superstition etc etc. The quran has absolutely nothing to do with mazhab. It is a book about real things that really matter for humanity as a whole. Most of the works on quran were produced during imperial periods and were according to ruler's wishes. This is why most of tafaseer and fiqh books for example are full of mythical stories, useless rituals and rewards that have absolutely no benefit for the individual or wider human society.

    Therefore taking deen v mazhab seriously is absolutely necessary. It is a second huge task on its own to learn the quran properly and then teach it to others properly beside earning one's livelihood. When does one get time to take a tasbeeh and sit in a corner to do thousands of repetitions for name of Allah that serve no sensible purpose. Reading the quran instead serves a vital purpose at least as explained. How? Because by learning the quran we are learning how to set up human society for its proper functioning. It is because we do not learn the learn that we live like animals ie disorganised, no sense of purpose or direction and no guidelines to follow.

    We do not realise that we cannot please Allah by aimlessly mentioning his name instead we have been set a task to establish. If we leave the task aside and do other things in the hope of pleasing Allah then we are not thinking right at all. Islam is not about pleasing God but about serving humanity in the name of God. The best service we can do is take his message properly ourselves then deliver it as far and wide as we can properly. In short we are divine agents on behalf of our prophet to learn terms of unity and let them know to others so that they too come and join us and together we make a better world for all of us.

    The quran has been translated wrong because each translator tried to keep to the old interpretations that were done during imperial times for their purposes. Thus they turned the quran in to a mythical, superstitious book. We have been brain washed to take the quran that way therefore we think that Allah will be angry if used our own brains. All this because people who derailed deen in to mazhab also ensured that they set up traps so that people are not able to recover original meanings of the quran without a big struggle. They did this because to recover the quranic message would mean end of their game plan and status as emperors and priests. Since the problem is with interpretations of the quran so we must decide whether islam is deen or mazhab for ourselves.

    The other reason that forces us to decide whether islam is deen or mazhab is our own existence. What do I mean by that? I mean we are physical beings with physical needs. Our physical needs come before anything and everything because only if we exist anything matters if we do not exist nothing matters. To exist we must have clean air to breath, clean water to drink and good food to eat. It cannot be any other way. The question is, if these things are important then what does God say about it in the quran? Before we could realise what God says in the quran let us know some facts that we see for ourselves.

    To come to existence and get our needs we depend on other people ie we are interlinked and interdependent. This means our all self interests depend on each other and the natural world out there. This mean we must sort out this between us first and foremost. So far there is no namaaz, no roza, no zakaat, no hajj at all. Why? Because if we do not live nothing matters and if we live then we can only do what we allow each other to do. If I don't let you live then you cannot do any of these things and like wise is the case for me if you start troubling me and not let me have peace to do what I want to do or need to do. Family feuds are always there and brothers kill brothers and children kill even their parents and parents kill children over these things so the whole world would be in chaos without peace=islam. This argument should leave one in doubt as to why the quran was revealed. We are told Arab history and animosities between tribes as to how they were always at war with each other but ended up a single brotherhood. We too need to find that magic in the quran and use it to get that unity and prosperity. The quran was revealed to show people how they should live in peace with each other so that then they could get on with solving other real life problems with help of each other. So this is what islam is all about first and foremost ie terms for peace between us so that we then let each other live in peace and get on with doing other things that need to be done.

    This is why in surah al fatiha=proclamation or open declaration this context of the quran is made very clear ie Allah sends his messenger to proclaim in the name of Allah. Who is Allah? Al Rahman, Al Raheem. and that sovereignty belongs to Allah alone because he is the creator and the sustainer of the world, Al Rahmaan, Al Raheem. He is the one who provided the yardstick for the mankind to judge their decision and actions by. This is so obvious from the first 4 verses of the quran.

    The next verse tells the prophet to tell people to make declaration that they will serve me alone and seek help only and only from my revelation by studying the real world for themselves. Seeking a path that is firmly founded there from. Like those who passed away and were blessed because they did exactly that. They did not do what they were stopped from and that is why they prospered and their stories told in the quran.

    So anyone who accept the quran as will or plan of Allah for mankind is actually entering an agreement with Allah that he will do as told by Allah. It is like a father advising his children and then asking have you heard what I said and do you understand and agree to use this advice. So being muslims we are supposed to say yes, we hear you and will obey you. In fact if we read the quran at death prophet yaqoob asks his sons by whose rule will you govern your living? They all replied by rule of Allah.

    If we look at surah 2, It is called AL BAQARAH, this word is from root BAA, QAAF and RAA. It means cow, sacred cow, cowardice, conflict, divide, dissension, separation, tearing apart etc. If we then look at mankind we see each and every person fighting with others. The same fight extends throughout whole mankind. The question is what are they fighting for? The only answer is over land and resources, means of production and distribution. This means that issue of live and let live is connected to livelihood. Whoever controls livelihood of anyone controls the person or animal. Your dog is loyal to you because you make him dependent on you for his living. We are loyal to our patents because they feed us. This means people are loyal to livelihood when that livelihood comes from another source we become loyal to that source. Whoever we assume feeds us we listen to that person because that person is our master our God. This is what shirk is all about ie accepting others as Gods instead of Allah.

    This is why none is given the right to own land and resources, means of production and distribution because all these are birth right of each and every person decided by the creator himself. So anyone who thinks he is the owner of things then that person is declaring he is God instead of Allah so he has delcared war against God and humanity. It is for this reason such a person is declared a kafir eg firaon=pharaoh. It is because such people delcare war against God and humanity therefore islam is all about telling people their rightsful place in divine scheme of things. This is two nation theory ie islam v kufar. A person must accept that all belongs to God or that it does not. If it is accepted all belongs to God then one has to use it as told by God but if not then one will use it as one likes. This is what war between islam and kufar is all about and this is what Surah AL-BAQRAH is all about. It lays down terms for people to unite and prosper or remain divided and suffer by keep on fighting over things as to who can take control over things and hold others hostage. The question is, what does word baqarah mean and what exactly is Allah trying to tell us by giving this surah title with such a word? Worde cow=cowardice mindset or attitude or approach to issues. Word cow stand for holy cow=religion= make beliefs and useless dogmas. Word cow can also mean dealing with isues of unity and disunity between people or mankind.

    So which of the so many meaning is correct for the title of this surah? If we read the surah it is talking about groups of people, land and resources, means of production and distribution right from the start after telling us that this is such a book in which there is no doubt. There are muslims, kafirs and munafiqeen. The reason for division is because some want peace so they work for peace in the land and others want wars so they work for wars and yet others conspire for their own goals and join either party that suits them ie change their alliance and loyalties. This leaves us in no doubt that surah al baqarah is a chapter on conflicts between people, their reasons for conflicts and the terms whereby these conflicts can be resolved if all parties were made to realise the benefits of having peace between them on equitable and dignified terms.

    This should now make one think as to why people translated the quran wrongly and who could it be? Also was it mistranslated deliberately or by mistake? This has been done to the whole of the quran. It is because imperialists always wanted wars and people who claimed to be muslims some of them were actually not muslims in their hearts. They were always trying to gain power and once they did, they showed their true colours.

    The question is, why people fight? Over land and resources, means of production and distribution. Each party tries to take this world of Allah under its control because whoever controls these things, controls humanity, because one becomes master of life and death of everyone else. This is why Allah does not give right to anyone to control his land and its resources because he created all and he created all this for all. Caring and sharing is therefore rule of law of Allah. Anyone who thinks that anyone else has the right to control the land and its resources, means of production and distribution is called a mushrik. It is because such a person would become like a god for the rest of the people to control them. This explains concept of two nation theory or us versus them. If one does not accept the quranic terms for peace between mankind then one has to put forth his own terms and they need to be at least equally good as the quranic term or they will be rejected. The quran challenges mankind that they cannot come up with peace terms as good as in the quran ever. Yet if people reject the quranic terms for peace then who is at fault? The quran or mankind? Muslims or kufaar? The quran is not a book of double standards it is all about one rule for all. No negative discrimination at all. The quranic discrimination is only and only for organisational purpose to give people identity for knowing each other for assigning rights and responsibilities.

    According to the quran all people are equal before the law of Allah ie prophets and followers just to make it very clear. It is not right even for a prophet that Allah appoints him and then he tells people take me as your master or ruler. This is why islam is anti mullaism and anti imperialism. If even a prophet is not allowed to be the ruler then how can anyone else be allowed to become one? This is why these people who wanted to be rulers instead of Allah changed the interpretation of the book so that then the way could be open for them to use and abuse people at will. They spread ignorance instead of knowledge and that is why muslims despite having the quran in their hands were unable to create the divine kingdom the quran guides to. It was all result of unquestioned doctrination.

    So once people start reading the quran in this context a lot of problems will disappear that are due to our make beliefs.

    After explaining the fight between the people and conflict resolutions, the quran brings in stories of the past eg story of Adam, bani israel etc. Telling us what were their conflicts about and how were they solved.

    Hopefully this also explains why the quran is the only solution and not any other ideology that is not based on principles of the quran. It is because the quran is the only book that talks about real world and its real situations and how one should deal with them. Not only that but it discusses them right at the beginninbg of the book. In other words the quran tackles first thing first. This is why we should not be looking for things in this book which have nothing to do with reality of life. It is for this reason we must concentrate on our problems and seek help from the quran as to how to solve them. This is what the quran is sent for. To make us self reliant. This is why the quran tells us Allah only helps those who help themselves. We are told Allah does not change a people unless they work for the change they want. Allah only shows us the way but walking along the way is left up to us.

    So people who do not try to understand the quran in its proper context cannot benefit from it nor can they benefit anyone else. The quran is useless for people who do not learn what it is for and how they can make use of it.

    If the whole house is on fire, hiding in the house in a corner is not going to be of much help. This is why we must ensure world out there is in right frame of mind that it does not burn itself out. We are all part of it so we better wake up and work towards saving it, that is islam. The message of the quran is irrefutable by anyone no matter a muslim or a nonmuslim. It is firmly fixed as no other thing.

    I think it is of vital importance that we first put forth overall picture of what islam means to us personally as per our own understanding of the quran in light of whatever we know so far, because that is the very key to understanding bits and pieces and their place within the wider picture. In any map that is not laid out fully one has difficulty in trying to figure out where one is and where one wants to go and how or why. This is why in any map that is in pages eg global, national, local or any picture that is in pieces eg jig saw puzzle there is a key or picture with it because without having some sort of idea as to how to figure things out is not at all easy. This is why rules must be sort that keep us right as we go along. Just taking a meaning of a word randomly having no idea of what the overall concept is we can end up sticking wrong meanings to things.

    The other problem is due to conflict of interest between opposing parties there is a lot of misinformation and disinformation about. It is because each side wants to influence others and therefore anyone can drag things one way or the other so we need to have some fixed yardstick whereby we could judge why something is right or wrong. This is why some history of islam is important to know because it tells us what people have been doing to the book and how or why.

    If islam was a religion then imperial forces regardless muslim or nonmuslim would have nothing to worry because religion is between god and man nothing to do with real world. There were plenty of religions before islam and after islam and are till around even today. People go in mundirs, gurudawaras, synagogues, churches, temples, altars etc. They all believe that there is ultimately only one source of all origin. They go through various ritualisms which they assume god told them through his chosen people eg prophets, saints and sages or wise men and even god incarnates. In all this God is given a useless description and role by man and man has given a useless rule to himself. I am saying useless because it has no real benefit for mankind. A man sits in a jungle busy with his counter repeating name of his god or whatever one believes in. Likewise man prays to his god. Likewise people go through hardships thinking they are pleasing their god. May be stay hungry or stand on one leg or whatever pleases them. Likewise they may visit places to please their god. In all this there is no real benefit for others and hardly any for oneself. Likewise people may give a part of their earnings to help the poor but even that is useless because even if some give to some people, others take it away from them. It is like going to well to fetch water in a container that has hole in the bottom.

    All this is useless for mankind unless first thing is done first ie the rule of law. Unless people live by a rule that makes life good for them there is nothing in life to live for or to establish regardless about next world or this world. It is because instability factor is not something that we can ignore. It will be fatal for our existence and establishing anything at all. This is why Islam is not a religion but a DIVINE rule of law for mankind ie a constitution. One has to ask oneself what is constitution? It is simply a document containing things for a people as an organised community. it tells them goals and guidelines, rules and regulations, rights and responsibilities etc between people working together as a community ie administration and ordinary membership. This is why one knows for a fact that an interpretation of the quran is correct or not and to the point or not because it either makes sense and it works at least on the paper or it does not. If it works then we can work towards establish it in reality.

    Before we manufacture a product it must be ensured at conceptual level that it will work eg we do not have to put a computer program to work on a computer to show that it works but even at development stage we can see that it will work and if odd thing comes up later that can be sorted out. Likewise before anyone could be asked to accept islam we need to be able to show them at least on paper how islam is better than religious rule as well as secular rule. To do this we ourselves must sit and think it out ourselves and then explain it to each other and then to wider world. Once we are able to do that people will come running to it not because we will force them with guns but that they will be able to rationalize it if we succeeded in explaining it to them sensibly. This is how the world would become a better place wherein people will be free to do what they like within set divine limits ie values and guidelines.

    Otherwise as things are going on in the name of religion and secularism, more and more people are getting more and more dispossessed and life is getting impossibly difficult and self destructive so man has no time for god. So many people convert from one religion to another, not because any religion is true but because the hope is that new community they join will give them worldly help that they need or that they are unhappy with religions and they are trying them one by one and ultimately people are turning to agnosticism and atheism.

    It is for these like reason I thought I should contribute whatever I have learned in several decades of my life for the benefit of others. Some people may not like my ideas but I know they will come round because there is no any other way out of this trap that we are caught in.

    This is why to me islam is a deen and not a dogmatic creed. DEEN=YARDSTICK for the world to live by if they wish to be free, just, fair, compassionate, friendly, progressive and prosperous therefore peaceful. Only deeni concept of islam can land us in good life in this world as well as in hereafter. Otherwise we are doomed to failures again and again till we ourselves come to same conclusion.


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