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  1. #1
    Astaghfirullah AlayhisSalaam's Avatar
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    Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Authu bilahi minaysh shaytani Rajeem, Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: The Prophet (s)said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The People said, “And also on our NAJD.” He said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The people said, “O Allah’s Apostle! And also on our NAJD.” I think the third time the Prophet (s) said, “There (in NAJD) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan.”

    Sahi Bukhari (Book #88, Hadith #214)


    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/f...ahabism-31284/

    Inshallah the purpose of this thread is to show that different people have different opinions and Salafi/Wahabi is not the majority nor are there so many people who like it or agree with it.

    I don't necessarily agree with everything written there, as I have not myself studied Ahadith, but this is still something to consider. The reason to consider is because a lot of Salafi/Wahabi are always calling bida'a and kufr etc... they literally are attacking the Ummah, and subhanallah there are hadith warning us of this from what I can tell.

    Astagfirullah authu bilahi minaysh shaytani Rajeem, Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem.

    You may refer to my thread:
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...lafi-inshallah

    Inshallah

    Wa alaikum salaam wa rahmatullah wa barakatoh
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    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    الفقير إلى رحمة الله ahaneefah's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    Abd al-Wahhab himself didn't accept Ibn Taymiyyah... I'm now confused about your sources, they seem mixed and conflicting now....

    Inshallah akhi can you quote your sources? You expect me to take your word that any scholar said that the Najd doesn't refer to Saudi and therefore Salafi. Alhamdulilah, I appreciate your word and opinion akhi, but I can't just accept everything you say when you haven't quoted any reliable scholars, and I have but you reject reading what I've quoted. It is too convenient for you to deny all of my sources but insist upon your own without even linking where they're coming from. Also, as I mentioned, how can you rely on Ibn Taymiyyah to defend Salafism when Abd al-Wahhab did not accept Ibn Taymiyyah's opinions.

    Wasalaam
    Can you please show us exactly how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah? Have you read any of their books? Like Kitab Tawhid or Aqeedah al Wasatiyyah?

    Ibn Hajr said: "al-Khattaabee said:

    "the najd in the direction of the east, and for the one who is in Madeenah then his Najd would be the desert of Iraaq and it's regions [baadiya al-Iraaq wa Nawaaheehaa] for this is to the east of the People of Madeenah. The basic meaning of Najd is that which is raised/elevated from the earth in contravention to al-Gawr for that is what is lower than it. Tihaamah [the coastal plain along the south-western and southern shores of the Arabian Peninsula] is entirely al-Gawr and Mecca is in Tihaamah.'[...] by this [saying of al-Khattaabee] the weakness of the saying of ad-Daawodee is understood that 'Najd is in the direction of Iraaq' [min Naahiya al-Iraaq] for he suggests that Najd is a specific place. This is not the case, rather everything that is elevated with respect to what adjoins it is called Najd and the lower area called Gawr."
    Fath al-Baaree 13/58-59

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    Astaghfirullah AlayhisSalaam's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?
    "Najd region, central Saudi Arabia, comprising a mainly rocky plateau sloping eastward from the mountains of the Hejaz. On the northern, eastern, and southern sides, it is bounded by the sand deserts of an-Nafūd, ad-Dahnāʾ, and the Rubʿ al-Khali. It is sparsely settled, except for the fertile oases strung along the escarpment of Jabal (mountains) Ṭuwayq and the al-ʿAramah plateau. The arid region remained politically divided among rival peoples until the mid-18th century, when it became the centre of the Wahhābī, a fundamentalist Islāmic movement. Led by the Muslim scholar Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb"

    The Prophet said, Peace be upon him
    1. "They [Khawarij = those outside] transferred the Qur'anic verses meant to refer
    to unbelievers and made them refer to believers."
    2. "What I most fear in my community is a man who interprets verses of the
    Qur'an out of context."
    3. "The confusion [fitna] comes from there (and he pointed to the East = Najd in
    present-day Eastern Saudi Arabia)."
    4. "A people that recite Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go past
    their throats. They will pass through the religion (of Islam) like the arrow passes
    through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
    will come back to its course. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
    5. "There will be in my Community a dissent and a faction, a people with
    excellent words and vile deeds. They will read Qur'an, but their faith does not go
    past their throats. They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes
    through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
    will come back to its original course. They are the worst of human beings and the
    worst of all creation. The one who kills them or is killed by them is blessed.
    They summon to the book of Allah but they have nothing to do with it. Whoever
    kills them is closer to Allah than they. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
    6. "A people will come out at the end of times, immature, foolish and corrupt.
    They will hold the discourse of the best of creation and recite Qur'an, but it will
    not go past their throats. They will passes through religion the way an arrow
    passes through its quarry. If you find them, kill them, for verily whoever kills
    them will have his reward from Allah the Day of Judgment."
    7. "There will be people in my Community whose mark is that they shave (their
    heads). They will recite Qur'an, but it will not go past their throats. They will
    pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its target. They are the
    worst of human beings and the worst of all creation."
    8. "The apex of disbelief is towards the East [Najd]. Pride and arrogance is found
    among the people of the horse and the camel [Bedouin Arabs]."
    9. "Harshness and dryness of heart are in the East [Najd], and true belief is among
    the people of Hijaz."
    10. "O Allah, bless our Syria and our Yemen!" They said: "Ya Rasulallah, and
    our Najd!" He didn't reply. He blessed Syria and Yemen twice more. They asked
    him to bless Najd twice more but he didn't reply. The third time he said: "There
    [in Najd] are the earthquakes and the dissensions, and through it will dawn the
    epoch [or horn] of shaytan."
    11. A version has, "The two epochs [or horns] of shaytan." Some scholars have
    said that the dual referred to Musaylima the Arch-liar and to Muhammad ibn
    `Abd al-Wahhab.
    12. Some versions continue with the words: "And in it [Najd] is the consuming
    disease," i.e. death.
    13. Some books of history mention the following version in the chapters devoted
    to the battles against the Banu Hanifa:
    "At the end of times a man will come out of Musaylima's country and he will
    change the religion of Islam." Note: Most of the Khawarij were from the Najd
    area, from the tribes of Banu Hanifa, Banu Tamim, and Wa'il. Musaylima was
    from the Banu Hanifa, and Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is from Tamim.
    13a. Abu Bakr said concerning the Banu Hanifa (the tribe of Musaylima the Liar):
    "Their valley [Najd] will not cease to be a valley of dissensions until the end of
    time, and the religion will never recover from their liars until Judgment Day," and
    in another version: "Woe to al-Yamama without end."
    13b. When `Ali killed the Khawarij, someone said: "Praise be to Allah Who has
    brought them down and relieved us from them." Ali replied: "Verily, by the One
    in Whose hand is my soul, some of them are still in the loins of men and they
    have not been born yet, and the last of them will fight on the side of the
    Antichrist."
    14. "A people that recite the Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go
    past their throats. Every time a generation of them is cut down another one will
    come until the last one finds itself on the side of the Antichrist."
    15. "There will be a huge confusion within my Community. There will not remain
    one house of the Arabs except that confusion will enter it. Those who die because
    of it are in the fire. The harm of the tongue in it will be greater than that of the
    sword."
    16. "There will be a dissension (in which people will be) deaf, dumb and blind
    (this means they will be blind and not see the true issue nor listen to the voice of
    truth): whoever tries to control it, the dissension will control him."
    17. "A shaytan will appear in Najd by whose dissension the Arabian island will
    quake."
    18. On the authority of al-`Abbas: "A man will come out of the Wadi Abu
    Hanifah [in Najd] (whose appearance is) like a bull that lunges against its yoke.
    There will be much slaughter and killing in his time. They will make the
    possessions of Muslims lawful for themselves and for trade among themselves.
    They will make the lives of Muslims lawful for themselves and for boasting
    among themselves. In that confusion the despised and the lowly will attain
    positions of power. Their idle desires will keep company with them the way a dog
    keeps company with its master."
    19. On the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri: "Verily in the wake of this time of
    mine comes a people who will recite Qur'an but it will not go past their throats.
    They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its quarry. They
    will kill the Muslims and leave the idolaters alone. If I saw them, verily I would
    kill them the way the tribe of `Aad was killed [i.e. all of them]."
    20. "There will be towards the end of time a people who will say to you what
    neither you nor your forebears ever heard before. Beware of them lest they
    misguide you and bring you confusion."
    21. "They will pass through Islam like an arrow passes through its quarry.
    Wherever you meet them, kill them!"
    22. "They are the dogs of the people of Hell."
    23. "They recite Qur'an and consider it in their favor but it is against them."
    24. "There will be thirty dajjals (antichrists) after me, all claiming prophethood."
    25. "Some people will be standing and calling at the gates of hell; whoever
    responds to their call, their will throw him into the Fire. They will be from our
    own people [i.e. Arabs] and will speak our language [Arabic]. Should you live to
    see the m, stick to the main body (jama`a) of the Muslims and their leader. (If
    there is no main body and no leader,) isolate yourself from all these sects, even if
    you have to eat from the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in
    that state."
    26. "Just before the Hour there will be many liars." Jabir ibn Samurah said: "Be
    on your guard against them."
    27. "The Hour will not come until thirty dajjals appear, all of them lying about
    Allah and His Messenger."
    28. "There will be Dajjals and liars among my Community. They will tell you
    something new, which neither you nor your forefathers have heard. Be on your
    guard against them and do not let them lead you astray."
    29. "The time of the Dajjal will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar,
    and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy,
    and trust one who is treacherous; and the ruwaybidha will have a say." Someone
    asked: "Who are they?" He said: "Those who rebel against Allah and will have a
    say in general affairs."
    30. "If the leadership is entrusted to those unfit for it, expect the Hour."
    31. "You will see the barefoot ones, the naked, the destitute, the shepherds and
    camelherds take pride in building tall structures in abundance."
    32. "One of the signs of the change of religion is the affectation of eloquence by
    the rabble and their betaking to palaces in big cities."



    Quote Originally Posted by ahanafeeh
    How do you explain the words of Imam Ibn Hajar when quoted Imam Khattaabi as stating that Najd for the people of Madinah are the steppes and semi-desert of Iraq?
    So are you telling me that Iraqi's put Umar's (ra) fasting and prayers to shame? Are you telling me that the Iraqi's have any sort of leadership in the Ummah? Are you telling me that Iraqi's take religious knowledge to large palaces in big cities? The Iraqi's recite Qur'an and consider it in their favour but it is against them? You're saying the horn of Shaytan is the Iraqi brothers, sisters, who are being murdered? Astagfirullah, how can you assert this about the mujahid wa mujahideen.



    Astagfirullah, Allahu 3alem.
    Last edited by AlayhisSalaam; 01-03-10 at 02:40 PM.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

  4. #83
    الفقير إلى رحمة الله ahaneefah's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    "Najd region, central Saudi Arabia, comprising a mainly rocky plateau sloping eastward from the mountains of the Hejaz. On the northern, eastern, and southern sides, it is bounded by the sand deserts of an-Nafūd, ad-Dahnāʾ, and the Rubʿ al-Khali. It is sparsely settled, except for the fertile oases strung along the escarpment of Jabal (mountains) Ṭuwayq and the al-ʿAramah plateau. The arid region remained politically divided among rival peoples until the mid-18th century, when it became the centre of the Wahhābī, a fundamentalist Islāmic movement. Led by the Muslim scholar Muḥammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhāb"

    The Prophet said, Peace be upon him
    1. "They [Khawarij = those outside] transferred the Qur'anic verses meant to refer
    to unbelievers and made them refer to believers."
    2. "What I most fear in my community is a man who interprets verses of the
    Qur'an out of context."
    3. "The confusion [fitna] comes from there (and he pointed to the East = Najd in
    present-day Eastern Saudi Arabia)."
    4. "A people that recite Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go past
    their throats. They will pass through the religion (of Islam) like the arrow passes
    through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
    will come back to its course. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
    5. "There will be in my Community a dissent and a faction, a people with
    excellent words and vile deeds. They will read Qur'an, but their faith does not go
    past their throats. They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes
    through its quarry. They will no more come back to the religion than the arrow
    will come back to its original course. They are the worst of human beings and the
    worst of all creation. The one who kills them or is killed by them is blessed.
    They summon to the book of Allah but they have nothing to do with it. Whoever
    kills them is closer to Allah than they. Their sign is that they shave (their heads)."
    6. "A people will come out at the end of times, immature, foolish and corrupt.
    They will hold the discourse of the best of creation and recite Qur'an, but it will
    not go past their throats. They will passes through religion the way an arrow
    passes through its quarry. If you find them, kill them, for verily whoever kills
    them will have his reward from Allah the Day of Judgment."
    7. "There will be people in my Community whose mark is that they shave (their
    heads). They will recite Qur'an, but it will not go past their throats. They will
    pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its target. They are the
    worst of human beings and the worst of all creation."
    8. "The apex of disbelief is towards the East [Najd]. Pride and arrogance is found
    among the people of the horse and the camel [Bedouin Arabs]."
    9. "Harshness and dryness of heart are in the East [Najd], and true belief is among
    the people of Hijaz."
    10. "O Allah, bless our Syria and our Yemen!" They said: "Ya Rasulallah, and
    our Najd!" He didn't reply. He blessed Syria and Yemen twice more. They asked
    him to bless Najd twice more but he didn't reply. The third time he said: "There
    [in Najd] are the earthquakes and the dissensions, and through it will dawn the
    epoch [or horn] of shaytan."
    11. A version has, "The two epochs [or horns] of shaytan." Some scholars have
    said that the dual referred to Musaylima the Arch-liar and to Muhammad ibn
    `Abd al-Wahhab.
    12. Some versions continue with the words: "And in it [Najd] is the consuming
    disease," i.e. death.
    13. Some books of history mention the following version in the chapters devoted
    to the battles against the Banu Hanifa:
    "At the end of times a man will come out of Musaylima's country and he will
    change the religion of Islam." Note: Most of the Khawarij were from the Najd
    area, from the tribes of Banu Hanifa, Banu Tamim, and Wa'il. Musaylima was
    from the Banu Hanifa, and Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is from Tamim.
    13a. Abu Bakr said concerning the Banu Hanifa (the tribe of Musaylima the Liar):
    "Their valley [Najd] will not cease to be a valley of dissensions until the end of
    time, and the religion will never recover from their liars until Judgment Day," and
    in another version: "Woe to al-Yamama without end."
    13b. When `Ali killed the Khawarij, someone said: "Praise be to Allah Who has
    brought them down and relieved us from them." Ali replied: "Verily, by the One
    in Whose hand is my soul, some of them are still in the loins of men and they
    have not been born yet, and the last of them will fight on the side of the
    Antichrist."
    14. "A people that recite the Qur'an will come out of the East, but it will not go
    past their throats. Every time a generation of them is cut down another one will
    come until the last one finds itself on the side of the Antichrist."
    15. "There will be a huge confusion within my Community. There will not remain
    one house of the Arabs except that confusion will enter it. Those who die because
    of it are in the fire. The harm of the tongue in it will be greater than that of the
    sword."
    16. "There will be a dissension (in which people will be) deaf, dumb and blind
    (this means they will be blind and not see the true issue nor listen to the voice of
    truth): whoever tries to control it, the dissension will control him."
    17. "A shaytan will appear in Najd by whose dissension the Arabian island will
    quake."
    18. On the authority of al-`Abbas: "A man will come out of the Wadi Abu
    Hanifah [in Najd] (whose appearance is) like a bull that lunges against its yoke.
    There will be much slaughter and killing in his time. They will make the
    possessions of Muslims lawful for themselves and for trade among themselves.
    They will make the lives of Muslims lawful for themselves and for boasting
    among themselves. In that confusion the despised and the lowly will attain
    positions of power. Their idle desires will keep company with them the way a dog
    keeps company with its master."
    19. On the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri: "Verily in the wake of this time of
    mine comes a people who will recite Qur'an but it will not go past their throats.
    They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its quarry. They
    will kill the Muslims and leave the idolaters alone. If I saw them, verily I would
    kill them the way the tribe of `Aad was killed [i.e. all of them]."
    20. "There will be towards the end of time a people who will say to you what
    neither you nor your forebears ever heard before. Beware of them lest they
    misguide you and bring you confusion."
    21. "They will pass through Islam like an arrow passes through its quarry.
    Wherever you meet them, kill them!"
    22. "They are the dogs of the people of Hell."
    23. "They recite Qur'an and consider it in their favor but it is against them."
    24. "There will be thirty dajjals (antichrists) after me, all claiming prophethood."
    25. "Some people will be standing and calling at the gates of hell; whoever
    responds to their call, their will throw him into the Fire. They will be from our
    own people [i.e. Arabs] and will speak our language [Arabic]. Should you live to
    see the m, stick to the main body (jama`a) of the Muslims and their leader. (If
    there is no main body and no leader,) isolate yourself from all these sects, even if
    you have to eat from the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in
    that state."
    26. "Just before the Hour there will be many liars." Jabir ibn Samurah said: "Be
    on your guard against them."
    27. "The Hour will not come until thirty dajjals appear, all of them lying about
    Allah and His Messenger."
    28. "There will be Dajjals and liars among my Community. They will tell you
    something new, which neither you nor your forefathers have heard. Be on your
    guard against them and do not let them lead you astray."
    29. "The time of the Dajjal will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar,
    and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy,
    and trust one who is treacherous; and the ruwaybidha will have a say." Someone
    asked: "Who are they?" He said: "Those who rebel against Allah and will have a
    say in general affairs."
    30. "If the leadership is entrusted to those unfit for it, expect the Hour."
    31. "You will see the barefoot ones, the naked, the destitute, the shepherds and
    camelherds take pride in building tall structures in abundance."
    32. "One of the signs of the change of religion is the affectation of eloquence by
    the rabble and their betaking to palaces in big cities."

    So are you telling me that Iraqi's put Umar's (ra) fasting and prayers to shame? Are you telling me that the Iraqi's have any sort of leadership in the Ummah? Are you telling me that Iraqi's take religious knowledge to large palaces in big cities? The Iraqi's recite Qur'an and consider it in their favour but it is against them? You're saying the horn of Shaytan is the Iraqi brothers, sisters, who are being murdered? Astagfirullah, how can you assert this about the mujahid wa mujahideen.

    What are you on about? Look all this is irrelavant rant. I can reply back and replace the word Iraqi with Saudi and do the same to you.

    Deal with one issue at a time, don't jump to copying and pasting.

    1) Prove to us how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as you claim?

    2) Have you read his book Kitab at Tawheed?

    3) What did the classical Ulema say regarding the ahadith you pasted? What did they say about Najd?

  5. #84
    Astaghfirullah AlayhisSalaam's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    AS - This is the weakest argument the sufis have against Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab for several reasons.
    Astagfirullah Akhi, have you read anything I've said. I am not a Sufi, and I am not using Sufi sources. Stop using the term "Sufi" as a defence and as an insult inshallah.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    Can you please show us exactly how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah? Have you read any of their books? Like Kitab Tawhid or Aqeedah al Wasatiyyah?
    Here is one example from someone who is defending Abd al-Wahhab:

    "He (Abd al-Wahhab) did not accept any interpreter, including Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taymiyya, as being authoritative. Only the Qur’an enjoyed such authoritative status. The hadith enjoyed such authoritative status only when they were in keeping with the teachings and, most importantly, values of the Qur’an." - source
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

  6. #85
    Astaghfirullah AlayhisSalaam's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    What are you on about? Look all this is irrelavant rant. I can reply back and replace the word Iraqi with Saudi and do the same to you.
    No, you cannot say the same about Saudi, because Abd al-Wahhab's teachings came out of Saudi and are responsible for the hatred amongst the Ummah today and are responsible for the hatred towards Muslims by non-Muslims as well. If Abd al-Wahhab did not bring such teachings which allowed his followers to promote Takfir then I highly doubt there would be so many issues of terrorism and violence within Islam as there is today. What Islamic sect or manhaj has come out of Iraq which has done this on such a scale?

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    Deal with one issue at a time, don't jump to copying and pasting.
    I'm not just copying and pasting, I am dealing with the issue that we disagree on where Najd is, you quote some scholars and I quote other scholars, and you have not yet showed your sources as I requested earlier inshallah.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    1) Prove to us how Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab rejected the views of Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as you claim?
    In my previous post I quoted a pro-Wahhab source which said this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    2) Have you read his book Kitab at Tawheed?
    No, but I have heard of it of course. Have you read it? If so, would you mind quoting from it inshallah?

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    3) What did the classical Ulema say regarding the ahadith you pasted? What did they say about Najd?
    Define classical Ulema inshallah.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    this entire thread is going nowhere simply because your not doing your homework. you say you are a revert but from your statemtents it appears that you have been pumped with a lot of false info.
    your have been given quoted from the likes of ibn hajar rh i think that should suffice to say that its enough for you to lay down your argument and accept that your understanding of the hadeeth is incorrect and that indeed ibn hajar is the one who has more knowledge than you will ever obtain.

    you know that if you came to a scholar and presented all this copy and paste that you would be told where the door is. you copy and paste from masud.co.uk a group of people that are known in the middle east for their association with many shirki beliefs. people that try and misquote scholars , they are in a ideological war with each other .

    We are not here trying to make a case against sufis , i am making a case against the so called supposed sufis that rant about salafis and wahabis and najdis when in fact they have this religious immunity within themselves for the scholars that are known for shirk.

    the only group that i can say that is not affected yet are the deobandis

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    Astagfirullah Akhi, have you read anything I've said. I am not a Sufi, and I am not using Sufi sources. Stop using the term "Sufi" as a defence and as an insult inshallah.

    Here is one example from someone who is defending Abd al-Wahhab:

    "He (Abd al-Wahhab) did not accept any interpreter, including Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Ibn Taymiyya, as being authoritative. Only the Qur’an enjoyed such authoritative status. The hadith enjoyed such authoritative status only when they were in keeping with the teachings and, most importantly, values of the Qur’an." - source
    You have misunderstood the paragraph. The paragraph states only Quran and Sunnah enjoyed authoritative status as they are the main sources of Islam.

    I am talking about beliefs and Aqeedah. If you are agianst Imam Ibn Abdul Wahhab you must also be against Imam Ibn Taymiyyah as they both held the same Aqeedah. Same with Imam Ahmed.

    What do you say about Imam Nawawi when he said that these hadith refer to the Dajjal coming from the east, Sharh Saheeh Muslim 2/29

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Brother we are all trying to tell you one thing and that is don't run when you can't crawl.
    knowledge is learned in steps shay and fa shay an in arabic.
    so have patience memorize the quran study basic aqeedah and fiqh.
    you will not gain a sigle piece of knowledge from talking about what group believes in your won't benefit from this

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    ASA

    I've been watching this thread for a while and it perfectly demonstrates why we as a ummah are extremely weak; to me this thread boils down to a) insults, b) opinions based on personal experiences

    (
    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    I have seen Wahhabism/Salafi destroy people's lives, so I have a biased perspective which doesn't see Wahabbi in a good light, but I don't go out of my way to insult them, if I do insult them then it is due to my bias and not because of any ill intention in my heart, I don't hate anyone
    )

    and c) that people from a certain geographical location are pure evil. Bravo.
    If this is how judgemental we are towards each other then no wonder some nonmuslims automatically assume all muslims are criminals based on their personal experiences further backed up by their "scholars"/the zionist owned media machine.



    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post

    I'm not trying to argue but inshallah to only find the truth in all matters
    This is the only thing that matters to me too and the reason why I am replying to this thread is to help emphasize how important it is that we don't let our personal experiences stand in the way of objectivity (we ask nonmuslims to not judge islam by it's followers who are imperfect so if 99.9% of the salafis that you have met happened to be coldhearted judgemental hypochrites that does not mean all are)

    Anyway this will be my only post in this thread:


    Effect of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah on the da’wah of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab
    Is there any connection between Shaykh Ibn Taymiyah, the Shaykh al-Islam, and the Wahhaabi movement?.


    Praise be to Allaah.
    Firstly:

    First of all it must be noted that the label “Wahhaabi” was first given to the call of Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab by the enemies of this call, with the aim of putting people off and warning people against it. They try to present it as an odd call with weird ideas, which is extreme in following the ideas of its imam and goes against the way of ahl al-sunnah wa’l-jamaa’ah.

    It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (2/255):

    Wahhaabism is a name given by the opponents of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab (may Allaah have mercy on him) to his call to cleanse Tawheed of all elements of shirk and to abolish all ways except the way of Muhammad ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). What they intend thereby is to put people off his call and block them from what he promoted. But it was not harmed by that, rather it caused it to spread even further and caused more people to come to it whom Allaah guided to look into what the da’wah was all about and what evidence it had from the Qur’aan and Sunnah. So they adhered to it, clung firmly to it and started calling other people to it, praise be to Allaah. End quote.

    Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said in al-Bayaan li Akhta’ Ba’d al-Kuttaab (70):

    This label is wrong with regard to wording, and with regard to the meaning.

    With regard to wording, that is because the da’wah is not being attributed to the one who started it, namely Shaykh Muhammad, rather it is being attributed to ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, who had nothing to do with it. The proper name for it would be al-Da’wah al-Muhammadiyyah (“the Muhammadan call”).

    But these opponents realized that this would be a good name that would not put anyone off, so they changed it to this distorted name.

    With regard to the meaning, that is because this da’wah did not drift away from the way of the righteous salaf, namely the Sahaabah, Taabi’een and their followers. So it should rightly be called the Salafi da’wah, because the one who founded it did not introduce any innovation in that which was named after him, as the promoters of misguided sects such as the Ismailis and Qarmatiyyah introduced innovations. If those misguided sects had called themselves salafis, the people and the historical record would have rejected this name, because they are outside the path of the salaf and were introduced by their founders.

    The correct name, both in wording and meaning, for the call of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab is the Muhammadan da’wah or the Salafi da’wah.

    But because this name annoys the enemies, they used an incorrect name. Therefore the word Wahhaabi was not known among the followers of the Shaykh, and it is their opponents who gave them this offensive nickname. Indeed, they gave this name to everyone who follows the way of the salaf, even in India, Egypt, Africa and elsewhere. By giving it this label, its opponents wanted to isolate the da’wah from the right path. So they excluded it from the four madhhabs and counted it as a fifth madhhab, “out of envy from their ownselves, even after the truth has become manifest unto them” (al-Baqarah 2:109). End quote.

    Secondly:

    The call of Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab in the twelfth century AH was a continuation of the call of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah which appeared in the seventh and eighth centuries AH.

    The Imam was influenced by it because it was in agreement with the basic principles of Islam with regard to beliefs and rulings. These principles included the following:

    1- Relying on the Holy Qur’aan and the saheeh Sunnah as the primary sources of legislation

    2- Keenness to adhere to the way of the righteous salaf, namely the Sahaabah, Taabi’een, the four imams and those who followed them.

    3- Calling people to Tawheed and rejection of shirk.

    4- Affirming that which Allaah has affirmed for Himself and denying that which He has denied for Himself with regard to the divine names and attributes.

    5- Rejection of fanaticism in following imams and calling for adherence to the truth based on evidence.

    6- Promotion of the Sunnah and fighting innovation.

    The book was the link between the two imams. Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab paid a great deal of attention to the books of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim.

    ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Abd al-Lateef Aal al-Shaykh said in Mashaaheer ‘Ulama’ Najd wa Ghayrihim (18):

    He wrote out with his own hand many of the books of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Tayimiyah, and some of them are still extant in the British Museum in London. End quote.

    Muslim writers and others, such as some of the Orientalists, have pointed in their books to the link between Imam Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab and the da’wah of Shaykh al-Islam.

    The great scholar Shaykh Ahmad ibn Hajar Aal Bootaami mentioned many statements in his book al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, such as the following:

    ‘Abd al-Muta’aal al-Sa’eedi said in his book al-Mujaddidoon fi’l-Islam:

    He started to promote the same message as Ibn Taymiyah before him, of Tawheed and worship of Allaah alone.

    Al-Ameer Shakeeb Arsalaan said in Part Four of Haadir al-‘Aalim al-Islaami, under the tile Tareekh Najd al-Hadeeth (the history of modern Najd):

    He had imbibed the principles of al-Haafiz Hujjat al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah … and he started to think of restoring Islam to its former purity. I do not think that he come up with any ideas different from the ideas of Ibn Taymiyah. End quote.

    Al-Haafiz Wahbah said in his book Jazeerat al-‘Arab:

    Their teachings are identical to that which was written by Ibn Taymiyah and his student in their books, although they differed with them concerning a few minor issues. End quote.

    Manhaj Haroon said, refuting the English writer Count Wales:

    Everything that Shaykh Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab said has been said by others who came before him of imams and scholars, and the noble Sahaabah. He did not go beyond anything that Imam Ahmad and Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on them) had said. End quote.

    Muhammad Diya’ al-Deen al-Rayyis said:

    … Ibn Taymiyah is the direct teacher of Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab, even though there were four centuries between them. He read his books and was completely influenced by his teachings. End quote.

    Brockelmann said in History of the Islamic Peoples:

    In Baghdad, Muhammad studied the fiqh of Ahmad ibn Hanbal, then he studied the writings of Ahmad ibn Taymiyah who had revived the teachings of Ibn Hanbal in the fourteenth century (CE). In fact his study of the views of these two imams led him to the conclusion that Islam, in the form that was prevalent during his time, especially among the Turks, was mixed with a great deal of incorrect ideas that had nothing to so with the sound Islamic teachings. End quote.

    Ahmad Ameen said:

    … In his da’wah and teachings, he followed the example of a great scholar and teacher who had appeared in the seventh century AH at the time of the Sultan al-Naasir, namely Ibn Taymiyah, who believed in ijtihaad and was a free thinker within the limits set by the Qur’aan and Sunnah. It seems that Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab knew of Ibn Taymiyah, who was his imam and leader, and his example, the one who inspired him with regard to ijtihaad and calling for reform. End quote.

    See: Athar Da’wat Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah fi’l-Harakaat al-Islamiyyah al-Mu’aasirah (1/136-138) by Salaah al-Deen Maqbool.

    Thirdly:

    But despite this strong link between the two imams, Imam Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab was a follower of evidence and was not a blind follower of personalities. He understood that Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah was one of the great imams of Islam, but that all humans are prone to error. He understood that Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was not an innovator who introduced a new message that was alien to Islam, rather he was following the way of the righteous salaf and following should be based on evidence and consensus among the imams. But no imam should be followed blindly no matter how great his level of knowledge, rather anyone’s opinion may be accepted or rejected except the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

    Shaykh al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him) said in al-Bayaan bi’l-Daleel (150), refuting the claim that Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab was nothing but a carbon-copy of Ibn Taymiyah:

    This is what he said about the academic level of Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhaab: He did not study anything but the writing of Ibn Taymiyah! It is as if he had not read the biography of the Shaykh and did not know anything about his level of knowledge, or he did know it but he concealed it in order to demean him and to deceive those who knew nothing about the Shaykh.

    But this does not conceal the truth. Writers have written many books about the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) that have been published throughout the world and which are known to the elite and common folk alike. He (may Allaah have mercy on him) studied fiqh, hadeeth and usool in depth, including the books of ‘aqeedah that were compiled and written by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim. He graduated at the hands of great scholars and imams in various fields in Najd, the Hijaaz, al-Ihsa’ and Basrah. He was granted ijaazahs to narrate from them and convey their knowledge. He studied, issued fatwas and wrote books about fiqh, hadeeth and ‘aqeedah until he earned the admiration of those who gathered around him or listened to his lessons and debates, or who read any of his writings. His writings point to the vastness of his knowledge of Islamic sciences and the depth of his understanding. What he spoke of in those writings was not limited only to the books of Ibn Taymiyah – as those who are ignorant or who pretend to be ignorant think – rather he also quoted the views of prominent imams on fiqh, tafseer and hadeeth, which is indicative of the depth of his knowledge and understanding, and his keen insight. His books that have been printed and are in circulation bear witness to that, praise be to Allaah. He did not quote only the words of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah and ignore the opinions of others, unless he believed Ibn Taymiyah’s view to be stronger on the basis of evidence. In fact, he disagreed with Ibn Taymiyah on some matters of fiqh. End quote.

    For more information please see the answers to questions no. 36616, 10867 and 12203.

    Islam Q&A
    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/89671/najd%20salafi

    WS
    "Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem"
    Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle-Flavius Vegetius Renatus

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    No, you cannot say the same about Saudi, because Abd al-Wahhab's teachings came out of Saudi and are responsible for the hatred amongst the Ummah today and are responsible for the hatred towards Muslims by non-Muslims as well. If Abd al-Wahhab did not bring such teachings which allowed his followers to promote Takfir then I highly doubt there would be so many issues of terrorism and violence within Islam as there is today. What Islamic sect or manhaj has come out of Iraq which has done this on such a scale?

    I'm not just copying and pasting, I am dealing with the issue that we disagree on where Najd is, you quote some scholars and I quote other scholars, and you have not yet showed your sources as I requested earlier inshallah.

    In my previous post I quoted a pro-Wahhab source which said this.

    No, but I have heard of it of course. Have you read it? If so, would you mind quoting from it inshallah?

    Define classical Ulema inshallah.
    Have you ever studied the Tareekh of Islam? Where did the Jahmiyyah/mutazilah come from? The Murjiah? etc... They came from Iraq. Go and do you homework.

    How did Imam Abdul Wahhab teaching came from Al Saud? When Al Saud came after Ibn Wahhab?

    Give us an example where he promoted Takfeer? What are the principles of Takfeer?

    Im sorry to say you don't have clue about his life and his works. His movement made an effort to purify Islam by returning Muslims to original principles of Islam, as practised by the Salaf and rejecting corruptions introduced by Bid'ah and Shirk. He destroyed the shrines, do you have a problem with this?

    IslamOnline - a Wahhabi source? You having a laugh!

    So you veto the opinions of Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajar? And whose opinions do you take?

    Classical Ulema - the first 3/5 centuries of Islam...Give us their interpretation not the scholars of today.

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    i really don't get it when people belief this stuff , when they themeselves have don't understand Arabic have not memorized the quran,not understand, fiqh, hadeeth, aqeedah, tasawwuf. yet would love to discuss this issue.
    it has no point we can all get articles to label a group deviant that is easy.

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Also according to Imam Nawawi, it is shown in Najd Qarnu ash-Shaytaan that there are 13 places that have been labeled as najd depending a lot on one's own location, and from Medina, najd would be Iraq.

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    Astaghfirullah AlayhisSalaam's Avatar
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Reflection09

    Jazakallah khayr for your response.

    Astagfirullah if I've insulted anyone. I have not said nor do I believe that people are evil because of where they're born. I've only quoted hadith and scholars who say that from the Najd will come the horn of shaytan, etc... And where the brother of Abd al-Wahhab told him that he was the horn which Muhammad(saws) referred to in that hadith.

    Anyone who has insulted me has not directed their insults towards me, but towards the scholars and The Prophet (saws) who I quoted.

    Let the hadith speak for themselves inshallah, obviously there are many scholars who disagree with each other on every matter, so it is up to us individually to decide. It is a known fact that Salafism looks down upon non-Salafi and that they speak Takfir as often as they speak Takbir. Astagfirullah.


    The brother of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab al Najdi, Shaykh Sulaiman bin Abdul Wahab, said about his brother, “The horn of Shaytan which the Prophet (Sallallahu’ aliahi wa sallam) referred to is you.” [Sawaa’iqul Ilahiya]

    Sahi Bukhari (Book #88, Hadith #214) Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: The Prophet (s)said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The People said, “And also on our NAJD.” He said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The people said, “O Allah’s Apostle! And also on our NAJD.” I think the third time the Prophet (s) said, “There (in NAJD) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan.”

    It is reported in SAHIH BUKHARI from Hazrat Abu Said Khudri (Radiallhu Anhu) who narrates that:
    Once we were in the presence and company of the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam). He was distributing booties (Spoils of War) when a person named Zul-Khawaisara, who was from the tribe of Bani Tamim addressed the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) "Oh Muhammad Be Just!" ". The Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) replied: "A Great pity that you have doubts, if I am unjust then who will be just, you are a loser and a failure." Zul-Khawaisara's attitude infuriated Hazrat Umar (Radiallhu Anhu) and he pleaded with the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) to permit him to slay Zul-Khawaisara. The Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) remarked: "Leave him, as his slaying will serve no good purpose, as he is not the only individual but there are a host of others like him and if you compare their prayers and fasting to that of yours, you yourself will feel ashamed. These are the people who will recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats, with all these apparent virtues they will leave the fold of Deen just like the arrow leaves the bow.



    I agree that you don't judge Islam by the acts of Muslims, but when it comes to a sect, you should judge them by their teachings, and Reflection09 as well as anyone else who disagrees, I suggest that you visit a Salafi Mosque and see and listen for yourself. Listen to videos by Salafi scholars:

    Inshallah this is all I will say anymore regarding this. There are scholars who support the view that Najd is where Abd al-Wahhab was born who believe that his sect of Salafism is what was referred to, and there are scholars who disagree. Which scholars are right?



    Inshallah I want to repeat my original statement:

    Inshallah the purpose of this thread is to show that different people have different opinions and Salafi/Wahabi is not the majority nor are there so many people who like it or agree with it.

    I don't necessarily agree with everything written there, as I have not myself studied Ahadith, but this is still something to consider. The reason to consider is because a lot of Salafi/Wahabi are always calling bida'a and kufr etc... they literally are attacking the Ummah, and subhanallah there are hadith warning us of this from what I can tell.

    This was my original stance and has remained my stance throughout the thread. I have received insults and attacks as a result of my stance. If I were so wrong in my honesty and neutrality, then why not explain to me with truth how I was in error? But when I quote Qur'an and Hadith and Scholars, then you say that I'm saying these things, no I'm not saying these things, I'm telling you what I have read and what scholars have confirmed.

    I have read a bit about Abd al-Wahhab and I do not think he was a bad man who had bad intentions. I have read that he did not promote Takfir and that he put restrictions on Jihad, rather than calling for it in any terror-like manner.

    I don't know where anyone has gotten the impression that I hate Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab or that I hate Muslims or that I hate even Salafis. I have never said such a thing, nor implied it. I have only quoted what resources I have discovered and from my knowledge they are from Sunni sources and not from Grave-worshippers or from even Sufis.

    Rather than shouting at your fellow Muslims and calling people names and being so rude and violent, why don't you just quote your sources and give us an accurate reference so we can see for ourselves? And inshallah there should be sufficient evidence for us to believe in such a stance, and not just claim that it refers to Iraq for example when it clearly was not referring to Iraq, because if you just look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.



    Jazakallah khayr to all of you, but inshallah let us speak with peace to each other, this is really absurd that we must resort to insults and then make each other feel bad, astagfirullah.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    i really don't get it when people belief this stuff , when they themeselves have don't understand Arabic have not memorized the quran,not understand, fiqh, hadeeth, aqeedah, tasawwuf. yet would love to discuss this issue.
    it has no point we can all get articles to label a group deviant that is easy.
    I really dont get it why people are so angry here, why are you against somebody that asked for more information on something therefore admtting that they dont knw everything and are not sure but just want the truth

    if you are claiming someon is in the wrong or spreading fitna, how are you minimizing fitna with your belittling and insults and saying "go away do your homework" etc, instead why dont you show someone which sources they should go to, explain the basics of salafsim if that is what you believe and argue in a reasonable manner

    this is my last post also, muslims would be ashamed if the prophet saws was living this day and he would not condone any of this behaviour

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    Asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu Reflection09

    Jazakallah khayr for your response.

    Astagfirullah if I've insulted anyone. I have not said nor do I believe that people are evil because of where they're born. I've only quoted hadith and scholars who say that from the Najd will come the horn of shaytan, etc... And where the brother of Abd al-Wahhab told him that he was the horn which Muhammad(saws) referred to in that hadith.

    Anyone who has insulted me has not directed their insults towards me, but towards the scholars and The Prophet (saws) who I quoted.

    Let the hadith speak for themselves inshallah, obviously there are many scholars who disagree with each other on every matter, so it is up to us individually to decide. It is a known fact that Salafism looks down upon non-Salafi and that they speak Takfir as often as they speak Takbir. Astagfirullah.


    The brother of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab al Najdi, Shaykh Sulaiman bin Abdul Wahab, said about his brother, “The horn of Shaytan which the Prophet (Sallallahu’ aliahi wa sallam) referred to is you.” [Sawaa’iqul Ilahiya]

    Sahi Bukhari (Book #88, Hadith #214) Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: The Prophet (s)said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The People said, “And also on our NAJD.” He said, “O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Sham (north)! O Allah! Bestow Your blessings on our Yemen.” The people said, “O Allah’s Apostle! And also on our NAJD.” I think the third time the Prophet (s) said, “There (in NAJD) is the place of earthquakes and afflictions and from there comes out the side of the head of Satan.”

    It is reported in SAHIH BUKHARI from Hazrat Abu Said Khudri (Radiallhu Anhu) who narrates that:
    Once we were in the presence and company of the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam). He was distributing booties (Spoils of War) when a person named Zul-Khawaisara, who was from the tribe of Bani Tamim addressed the Holy Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) "Oh Muhammad Be Just!" ". The Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) replied: "A Great pity that you have doubts, if I am unjust then who will be just, you are a loser and a failure." Zul-Khawaisara's attitude infuriated Hazrat Umar (Radiallhu Anhu) and he pleaded with the Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) to permit him to slay Zul-Khawaisara. The Prophet (Sallal Laahu Alaihi Wasallam) remarked: "Leave him, as his slaying will serve no good purpose, as he is not the only individual but there are a host of others like him and if you compare their prayers and fasting to that of yours, you yourself will feel ashamed. These are the people who will recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats, with all these apparent virtues they will leave the fold of Deen just like the arrow leaves the bow.



    I agree that you don't judge Islam by the acts of Muslims, but when it comes to a sect, you should judge them by their teachings, and Reflection09 as well as anyone else who disagrees, I suggest that you visit a Salafi Mosque and see and listen for yourself. Listen to videos by Salafi scholars:

    Inshallah this is all I will say anymore regarding this. There are scholars who support the view that Najd is where Abd al-Wahhab was born who believe that his sect of Salafism is what was referred to, and there are scholars who disagree. Which scholars are right?



    Inshallah I want to repeat my original statement:

    Inshallah the purpose of this thread is to show that different people have different opinions and Salafi/Wahabi is not the majority nor are there so many people who like it or agree with it.

    I don't necessarily agree with everything written there, as I have not myself studied Ahadith, but this is still something to consider. The reason to consider is because a lot of Salafi/Wahabi are always calling bida'a and kufr etc... they literally are attacking the Ummah, and subhanallah there are hadith warning us of this from what I can tell.

    This was my original stance and has remained my stance throughout the thread. I have received insults and attacks as a result of my stance. If I were so wrong in my honesty and neutrality, then why not explain to me with truth how I was in error? But when I quote Qur'an and Hadith and Scholars, then you say that I'm saying these things, no I'm not saying these things, I'm telling you what I have read and what scholars have confirmed.

    I have read a bit about Abd al-Wahhab and I do not think he was a bad man who had bad intentions. I have read that he did not promote Takfir and that he put restrictions on Jihad, rather than calling for it in any terror-like manner.

    I don't know where anyone has gotten the impression that I hate Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab or that I hate Muslims or that I hate even Salafis. I have never said such a thing, nor implied it. I have only quoted what resources I have discovered and from my knowledge they are from Sunni sources and not from Grave-worshippers or from even Sufis.

    Rather than shouting at your fellow Muslims and calling people names and being so rude and violent, why don't you just quote your sources and give us an accurate reference so we can see for ourselves? And inshallah there should be sufficient evidence for us to believe in such a stance, and not just claim that it refers to Iraq for example when it clearly was not referring to Iraq, because if you just look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.



    Jazakallah khayr to all of you, but inshallah let us speak with peace to each other, this is really absurd that we must resort to insults and then make each other feel bad, astagfirullah.
    You are misapplying the ahadith to an individual and its group.

    What are the principles of Takfeer?

    Show us where Imam Abdul Wahhab did takfeer on the masses?

    You absolutely have no answer to the interpretations of Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr of the word Najd. So are they insulting the Prophet (saw)?

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    As - Put the actions of Muslims to one side.

    Can you argue about the beliefs? Why are you always resorting to "if you go to Salafi Masjid........." they do this and that, etc.

    Rather than talking about the mistakes, why don't you discuss the theological arguements?

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    You are misapplying the ahadith to an individual and its group.

    What are the principles of Takfeer?

    Show us where Imam Abdul Wahhab did takfeer on the masses?

    You absolutely have no answer to the interpretations of Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr of the word Najd. So are they insulting the Prophet (saw)?
    [...] look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.

    Did Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr say that when Muhammad(saws) pointed east and said that from the Najd comes the horn of Shaytan that he was referring to Iraq?

    Unless Muhammad(saws) were standing in Jordan or Syria, then pointing East could not mean Iraq. Iraq is north of the Arabian Peninsula, not East, irrelevant of the time period.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    AS :

    On the authority of Abu Sa`id al-Khudri: "Verily in the wake of this time of mine comes a people who will recite Qur'an but it will not go past their throats. will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its quarry.
    Why did Imam Muslim place this hadith under the chapter of the khawarij? http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/h...p?Doc=1&n=2312

    Therefore are the Salafis (in your eyes) the same as khawarij?

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    AS :



    Why did Imam Muslim place this hadith under the chapter of the khawarij? http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/h...p?Doc=1&n=2312

    Therefore are the Salafis (in your eyes) the same as khawarij?
    Inshallah akhi, lol I love you for the sake of Allah (SWT), I'm not laughing at you, I'm just laughing, it is a good thing Mashallah,

    But could you please answer my question first inshallah? I will inshallah respond to this question of yours in a moment, after I read your link....

    [...] look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.

    Did Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr say that when Muhammad(saws) pointed east and said that from the Najd comes the horn of Shaytan that he was referring to Iraq?

    Unless Muhammad(saws) were standing in Jordan or Syria, then pointing East could not mean Iraq. Iraq is north of the Arabian Peninsula, not East, irrelevant of the time period.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    [...] look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.

    Did Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr say that when Muhammad(saws) pointed east and said that from the Najd comes the horn of Shaytan that he was referring to Iraq?

    Unless Muhammad(saws) were standing in Jordan or Syria, then pointing East could not mean Iraq. Iraq is north of the Arabian Peninsula, not East, irrelevant of the time period.
    Is there an Ijma' that Najd refers to Ibn Abdul Wahhab? Do you even understand Arabic?

    The word najd in Arabic refers to a “highland, plateau”. Hence, the same word is used to refer to different tracks of land. For example, najd in the language of the people of Makkah referred to the Najd of al-Yamaamah (in what is now central Saudi Arabia). However, najd in the language of the people of Madinah referred to the steppe and semi-desert lands of Iraq. The understanding of the hadith as stated by scholars present long before any kind of “Wahhabi” influence is that it was referring to the Najd of the people of Madinah or Iraq.

    Did you know that Iraq has clearly been the seat or source of many of the greatest trials in Islamic history?

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    Is there an Ijma' that Najd refers to Ibn Abdul Wahhab? Do you even understand Arabic?

    The word najd in Arabic refers to a “highland, plateau”. Hence, the same word is used to refer to different tracks of land. For example, najd in the language of the people of Makkah referred to the Najd of al-Yamaamah (in what is now central Saudi Arabia). However, najd in the language of the people of Madinah referred to the steppe and semi-desert lands of Iraq. The understanding of the hadith as stated by scholars present long before any kind of “Wahhabi” influence is that it was referring to the Najd of the people of Madinah or Iraq.

    Did you know that Iraq has clearly been the seat or source of many of the greatest trials in Islamic history?
    You still are not answering the question though akhi. How can you argue with geography? Set aside what Iraq has been and has done....

    The only way you can argue against these Ahadith is if you say that the Ahadith are weak, invalid, or that Muhammad(saws) didn't point East, or that he (saws) was mistaken when he (saws) pointed East, or some other theory.... But if you accept these hadith as being valid, then you cannot say that Iraq is where he (saws) was referring to when he (saws) pointed East. That is like pointing North from Ireland and saying "This is where you will find the United States of America." lol
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    Inshallah akhi, lol I love you for the sake of Allah (SWT), I'm not laughing at you, I'm just laughing, it is a good thing Mashallah,

    But could you please answer my question first inshallah? I will inshallah respond to this question of yours in a moment, after I read your link....

    [...] look at the map of the Middle-East http://i.infoplease.com/images/mapmiddleeast.gif then you can see that Iraq is north of Saudi Arabia. So unless you say that Muhammad(saws) made a mistake when he pointed East, Astagfirullah, then you cannot argue from this perspective.

    Did Imam Nawawi and Imam Ibn Hajr say that when Muhammad(saws) pointed east and said that from the Najd comes the horn of Shaytan that he was referring to Iraq?

    Unless Muhammad(saws) were standing in Jordan or Syria, then pointing East could not mean Iraq. Iraq is north of the Arabian Peninsula, not East, irrelevant of the time period.
    Put your logic to one side. The answer is there in the Sharh by Ibn Hajr:

    Ibn Hajr said: "al-Khattaabee said:

    "the najd in the direction of the east, and for the one who is in Madeenah then his Najd would be the desert of Iraaq and it's regions [baadiya al-Iraaq wa Nawaaheehaa] for this is to the east of the People of Madeenah. The basic meaning of Najd is that which is raised/elevated from the earth in contravention to al-Gawr for that is what is lower than it. Tihaamah [the coastal plain along the south-western and southern shores of the Arabian Peninsula] is entirely al-Gawr and Mecca is in Tihaamah.'[...] by this [saying of al-Khattaabee] the weakness of the saying of ad-Daawodee is understood that 'Najd is in the direction of Iraaq' [min Naahiya al-Iraaq] for he suggests that Najd is a specific place. This is not the case, rather everything that is elevated with respect to what adjoins it is called Najd and the lower area called Gawr."
    Fath al-Baaree 13/58-59

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    You still are not answering the question though akhi. How can you argue with geography? Set aside what Iraq has been and has done....

    The only way you can argue against these Ahadith is if you say that the Ahadith are weak, invalid, or that Muhammad(saws) didn't point East, or that he (saws) was mistaken when he (saws) pointed East, or some other theory.... But if you accept these hadith as being valid, then you cannot say that Iraq is where he (saws) was referring to when he (saws) pointed East. That is like pointing North from Ireland and saying "This is where you will find the United States of America." lol
    Put your logic to one side.

    Do you understand Arabic?

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by IDK View Post
    I really dont get it why people are so angry here, why are you against somebody that asked for more information on something therefore admtting that they dont knw everything and are not sure but just want the truth

    if you are claiming someon is in the wrong or spreading fitna, how are you minimizing fitna with your belittling and insults and saying "go away do your homework" etc, instead why dont you show someone which sources they should go to, explain the basics of salafsim if that is what you believe and argue in a reasonable manner

    this is my last post also, muslims would be ashamed if the prophet saws was living this day and he would not condone any of this behaviour
    this is not about salafism nor is it about sufism, this is simply about a person who has been provided with countless statement by classical scholars sources which include fathulbari and other than that giants like ibn hajar and nawawi are being quoted .

    what more can a person say other than go do you homework. One cannot say anything more than the explantion to the hadeeths that previous scholars have given.
    he keeps quoting modern day scholars it useless to keep going in circles when the proofs have been provided and the person who is being addressed turns away.
    you give him imam ibn hajar rh it should suffice

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    this is not about salafism nor is it about sufism, this is simply about a person who has been provided with countless statement by classical scholars sources which include fathulbari and other than that giants like ibn hajar and nawawi are being quoted .

    what more can a person say other than go do you homework. One cannot say anything more than the explantion to the hadeeths that previous scholars have given.
    he keeps quoting modern day scholars it useless to keep going in circles when the proofs have been provided and the person who is being addressed turns away.
    you give him imam ibn hajar rh it should suffice
    ok I have been a muslim for 7 years and I dont know who Imam ibn Hajar is and why is he important. Can you please explain who he is and why he is more authentic or important, why we can take his word etc

    you see brother, dont assume others know, if you knwo just share it in kind manner inshaAllah, not everyone is out there to get you or hate others, sometimes people just dont know, I am speaking for myself, I dont know

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    Put your logic to one side.

    Do you understand Arabic?
    Akhi, if someone says "There are three gods" (astagfirullah) and then you start explaining how there can be only one God, they tell you "Put your logic to one side. If you don't understand my language then you cannot argue with me." then you are going to ignore them right?

    I'm not going to ignore you lol but I'm just pointing out that your argument isn't standing in light of Islam or logic or anything.

    Brother, Islam doesn't go against logic and reason. You cannot bend the map and make Iraq east of Medina. The scholars cannot do so either. If Allah willed, Allah could, subhanallah, but Allah (SWT) has not made Iraq east of Medinah according to the maps that everyone in the world follows.

    Look at any map, pick any map you want, I don't care which map, and just show me where Iraq appears East of Medinah.

    On the maps I've looked at, directly East of Medinah is Riyadh.

    Since I don't speak Arabic, can you tell me what the hadith says in Arabic? Does it say that Muhammad(saws) pointed East? If it does, then you can never convince any logical human that he was pointing to Iraq unless his location was far north of Medinah at the time. Where was he when he pointed East? What was his location? (Note: He would have had to of been over 600 Kilometers north of Medinah in order for Iraq to be to his East.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ahaneefah View Post
    Is there an Ijma' that Najd refers to Ibn Abdul Wahhab? Do you even understand Arabic?

    The word najd in Arabic refers to a “highland, plateau”.
    "Imaam Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab"

    "Imam Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a great man, an outstanding reformer and a zealous preacher, who appeared in the Arabian Peninsula in the twelfth century A.H. He was educated by his father in his homeland, Oyayna, a village located at Yamama in Najd, northwest to the city of Riyadh." - source: http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?...icle&artid=180

    "Muhammad ibn 'Abd Al-Wahhab ibn Sulayman ibn 'Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Rashid al-Tamimi[1] (1703–1792) (Arabic: محمد بن عبد الوهاب التميمي‎) was an Islamic scholar born in Najd, in present-day Saudi Arabia."
    Last edited by AlayhisSalaam; 01-03-10 at 04:22 PM.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    the great imam ibn hjar asqalini who wrote the explanation of sahih bukhari, imam nawawi who wrote the explanation of sahih muslim.
    their books are studied everywhere in the world and their books are basically what use today to understand much of what is considered hadeeth.
    its frustrating to those who are students of knowledge to hear people act as this op is acting.

    how does a docter feel when a A-level students and tells him that he knows better, its condecending to say the least.
    he admits to being ignorant and them when proofs are given to him due to his ill understanding of whom classical scholars even giants like ibn hajar that should be household names like bukhari and the abu haneefa.

    so i apoligize if i come across as angry because i am and its very frustrating seeing this muslim confuse himself by enganging in all this partisanship

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    the great imam ibn hjar asqalini who wrote the explanation of sahih bukhari, imam nawawi who wrote the explanation of sahih muslim.
    their books are studied everywhere in the world and their books are basically what use today to understand much of what is considered hadeeth.
    its frustrating to those who are students of knowledge to hear people act as this op is acting.

    how does a docter feel when a A-level students and tells him that he knows better, its condecending to say the least.
    he admits to being ignorant and them when proofs are given to him due to his ill understanding of whom classical scholars even giants like ibn hajar that should be household names like bukhari and the abu haneefa.

    so i apoligize if i come across as angry because i am and its very frustrating seeing this muslim confuse himself by enganging in all this partisanship
    Please refer to post #106, directly above your post which I've quoted just now, in order to see the reason why I am arguing my case. I'm not rejecting evidence, I'm rejecting what I perceive to be illogical.

    To illustrate this hikmah of knowledge without Hikmah of action, a brother once completed the Salah in a local Masjid and then proceeded to shake hands with the people on his right and left. The brother to his immediate right slapped his hand and snapped, "That is not part of the Sunnah!" The man replied most correctly, "Oh, is disrespect and insult part of the Sunnah?"

    Well brother? Is it? Salaam

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89
    he admits to being ignorant
    Inshallah maybe we should all admit to being ignorant, and humble ourselves, because I'm sorry to tell you but none of your scholars are flawless, they are not infallible.
    http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/157...rtsinsults.jpg
    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    May Allah guide us and forgive us for our anger and guide us to good manners amin
    Last edited by IDK; 01-03-10 at 04:36 PM.

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Your arguement is one that is to do with geography and not religion, My advice to you is as follows ,
    1)memorize the quran
    2)study Arabic and basic fiqh
    3)continue your studies in fiqh and study the hadeeth and its sciences
    4)specialise in a field.


    if you have not yet acomplished the first three steps then you are brother in no place to discuss as it will only confuse you. Do not associate yourself with a group. put all pre-judgements to one side.
    and study and come to a conclusion when you have knowledge now we are only persuading you . its more befitting that you are pesuaded by the knowledge you have obtained.
    that is what i advice you inshalah .

    you will forever remain in doubt and the remover of doubt allah by blessing people with knowledge without it you are a sheep amongst wolves.
    each group is a wolf and they all want your flesh. gain knowledge and protect yourself

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    Your arguement is one that is to do with geography and not religion, My advice to you is as follows ,
    1)memorize the quran
    2)study Arabic and basic fiqh
    3)continue your studies in fiqh and study the hadeeth and its sciences
    4)specialise in a field.


    if you have not yet acomplished the first three steps then you are brother in no place to discuss as it will only confuse you. Do not associate yourself with a group. put all pre-judgements to one side.
    and study and come to a conclusion when you have knowledge now we are only persuading you . its more befitting that you are pesuaded by the knowledge you have obtained.
    that is what i advice you inshalah .

    you will forever remain in doubt and the remover of doubt allah by blessing people with knowledge without it you are a sheep amongst wolves.
    each group is a wolf and they all want your flesh. gain knowledge and protect yourself
    Jazakallah khayr for your advice and kind words.

    Inshallah and ameen, may Allah SWT remove our doubts and replace our ignorance with fiqh.

    However, Islam does not go against logic and reason. I'm sorry but if a scholar says "The world is 5 years old and square" then we are not going to accept this. Likewise, when a scholar tries to bend the hadith of Muhammad(saws) astagfirullah which is pointing to the East, and make him point North, then he is in the wrong. Muhammad(saws) pointed east as I said and if he were not over 600 Kilometers North of Medinah at the time of pointing East, then he could not have possibly been pointing at Iraq. You cannot bend the truth for your own desire brother, this is unIslamic.

    I've quoted sources which refer to Najd as modern day Saudi and Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi was born in Najd and hence the suffix to his name Najdi.
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    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by IDK View Post
    I am really disgusted. The OP has told us that he has been a muslim for a month or two and you lot choose to drive him away this way

    Shame on you and you should all go repent

    so if you are a "student of knowledge" are you ebtter than the new muslim? The wise doctor does not look down on A-level student but teaches him well

    the proof you presented was not in a good manner for two reasons, let aside the reason of rudeness, but take the reason in the way you presented the proof?

    I personally dont know who that imam is, perhaps if you tried to present proof from begining, without prior assumptions, say for example something along the lines of "the imam ibn hajar is a great scholar etc etc accepted by many and authentic etc etc, this scholar has shown such and such, also this other scholar who is this and this, has shown this..." does that make sense?

    that would convince me more

    JazakAllah may Allah forgive us for our anger and guide us to the truth amin and to good manners
    Disgusting is the behaviour shown that reflects jahl, if we are ignorant we do not cppy and paste fatwas. if we are ignorant we do not assume we know it all .
    who ever said that a born muslim is better than a convert. this is about how to deal with ignorance that is by learning. Brother ahaneef has given him refrences it now upon him to stop arguing and start looking for the evidences .
    A new muslim should not busy himself or herself with groups it does not benefit them.
    teaching someone requires a clean sheet its hard to teach someone pre-concieved opinions. have you ever tried teaching someone is from the start talks about wahabism and this and that as if .

    what happened studying the seerah memorizing the quran taking the steps to learn the deen.

    reflect on the course of action this muslim has taken a muslim for a months or 2 and were discussing wahabism with him or her . i think my advice was concise to him he busy himeself with studying this deen

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by IDK View Post
    ok I have been a muslim for 7 years and I dont know who Imam ibn Hajar is and why is he important. Can you please explain who he is and why he is more authentic or important, why we can take his word etc
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani was a traditionist scholar (muhaddith) from Egypt who lived in the 8-9th century of the Hijri calendar (d. 852AH). His magnum opus was his explanation of Imam al-Bukhari's al-Jami as-Sahih (commonly referred to as Sahih al-Bukhari), titled Fat·h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari. He's also known for many of his other hadith works, including Bulugh al-Maram and some books on Hadith terminology, such as Nukhbah al-Fikr and an-Nukat 'ala Kitab Ibn as-Salah. He's also got a number of works on narrators of hadith, such as Tahdhib at-Tahdhib, Lisan al-Mizan, and al-Isabah fi Tamyiz as-Sahabah.

    His works are heavily relied upon by many Muslim scholars, especially those involved in the science of Hadith.
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    Disgusting is the behaviour shown that reflects jahl, if we are ignorant we do not cppy and paste fatwas. if we are ignorant we do not assume we know it all .
    who ever said that a born muslim is better than a convert. this is about how to deal with ignorance that is by learning. Brother ahaneef has given him refrences it now upon him to stop arguing and start looking for the evidences .
    A new muslim should not busy himself or herself with groups it does not benefit them.
    teaching someone requires a clean sheet its hard to teach someone pre-concieved opinions. have you ever tried teaching someone is from the start talks about wahabism and this and that as if .

    what happened studying the seerah memorizing the quran taking the steps to learn the deen.

    reflect on the course of action this muslim has taken a muslim for a months or 2 and were discussing wahabism with him or her . i think my advice was concise to him he busy himeself with studying this deen
    I deleted the post
    Last edited by IDK; 01-03-10 at 04:46 PM.

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    Disgusting is the behaviour shown that reflects jahl, if we are ignorant we do not cppy and paste fatwas. if we are ignorant we do not assume we know it all .
    who ever said that a born muslim is better than a convert. this is about how to deal with ignorance that is by learning. Brother ahaneef has given him refrences it now upon him to stop arguing and start looking for the evidences .
    A new muslim should not busy himself or herself with groups it does not benefit them.
    teaching someone requires a clean sheet its hard to teach someone pre-concieved opinions. have you ever tried teaching someone is from the start talks about wahabism and this and that as if .

    what happened studying the seerah memorizing the quran taking the steps to learn the deen.

    reflect on the course of action this muslim has taken a muslim for a months or 2 and were discussing wahabism with him or her . i think my advice was concise to him he busy himeself with studying this deen
    I am ignorant and I admitted that I'm ignorant. I never claimed to know it all. I quoted hadith, qur'an, and scholars. I have used pictures to illustrate my point, and I have asked peacefully for some logical arguments.


    You say "if we are ignorant we do not assume we know it all"

    But the truth is, if you are as knowledgeable as you claim to be, then you should know better than to claim that you know everything.

    As ignorant as I am, I know better than to claim that I know everything, and I have openly admitted that I know nothing. You should know better than I do, but you don't.
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    O ye who believe! Let not some among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, after he has believed: And those who do not desist are doing wrong. (QURAN, Sura Hujurat, 49:11)

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by aboo ishaaq View Post
    Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani was a traditionist scholar (muhaddith) from Egypt who lived in the 8-9th century of the Hijri calendar (d. 852AH). His magnum opus was his explanation of Imam al-Bukhari's al-Jami as-Sahih (commonly referred to as Sahih al-Bukhari), titled Fat·h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari. He's also known for many of his other hadith works, including Bulugh al-Maram and some books on Hadith terminology, such as Nukhbah al-Fikr and an-Nukat 'ala Kitab Ibn as-Salah. He's also got a number of works on narrators of hadith, such as Tahdhib at-Tahdhib, Lisan al-Mizan, and al-Isabah fi Tamyiz as-Sahabah.

    His works are heavily relied upon by many Muslim scholars, especially those involved in the science of Hadith.
    ok JazakAllah

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    Jazakallah khayr for your advice and kind words.

    Inshallah and ameen, may Allah SWT remove our doubts and replace our ignorance with fiqh.

    However, Islam does not go against logic and reason. I'm sorry but if a scholar says "The world is 5 years old and square" then we are not going to accept this. Likewise, when a scholar tries to bend the hadith of Muhammad(saws) astagfirullah which is pointing to the East, and make him point North, then he is in the wrong. Muhammad(saws) pointed east as I said and if he were not over 600 Kilometers North of Medinah at the time of pointing East, then he could not have possibly been pointing at Iraq. You cannot bend the truth for your own desire brother, this is unIslamic.

    I've quoted sources which refer to Najd as modern day Saudi and Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab Najdi was born in Najd and hence the suffix to his name Najdi.
    Brother i advice on seeking knowledge first and foremost and that is my parting advice to you as this thread will not benefit me.
    as you are a new muslim i will let you know that respecting the scholars that have given us the illustrious explantion of hadeeth and islam in generel is not an option but incumabnt upon all muslims.
    so brother go through the stages of learnign this religion i am more than happy to direct to good institiutoins that offer accomadaton and other places that are more traditional if your intention truly is to study this deen.
    as for further debate than my stance is clear i follow the opinion of previous scholars on this issue and so i cannot and refuse to deny the religoius calliber of these imams and their statement so i cannot agree with you

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlayhisSalaam View Post
    I am ignorant and I admitted that I'm ignorant. I never claimed to know it all. I quoted hadith, qur'an, and scholars. I have used pictures to illustrate my point, and I have asked peacefully for some logical arguments.


    You say "if we are ignorant we do not assume we know it all"

    But the truth is, if you are as knowledgeable as you claim to be, then you should know better than to claim that you know everything.

    As ignorant as I am, I know better than to claim that I know everything, and I have openly admitted that I know nothing. You should know better than I do, but you don't.
    Brother i have never claimed that i know it all , to be honest i don't need to respond to this thread anymore you've been shown the ropes.

    get on with seeking knowledge partsanship will not get you anywhere

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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamza89 View Post
    Brother i advice on seeking knowledge first and foremost and that is my parting advice to you as this thread will not benefit me.
    as you are a new muslim i will let you know that respecting the scholars that have given us the illustrious explantion of hadeeth and islam in generel is not an option but incumabnt upon all muslims.
    so brother go through the stages of learnign this religion i am more than happy to direct to good institiutoins that offer accomadaton and other places that are more traditional if your intention truly is to study this deen.
    as for further debate than my stance is clear i follow the opinion of previous scholars on this issue and so i cannot and refuse to deny the religoius calliber of these imams and their statement so i cannot agree with you
    Thanks, I am serious about studying the deen and if it weren't for my situation at the moment I would be studying right now. But I am having to delay my official studies for the time being. I am not some random person who likes Islam, I am a devoted Muslim inshallah who has offered up my entire life, death, and fate to Allah (SWT) and His revelation.

    For anyone else who says that Najd is in Iraq, just read the following:


    Look at any map, pick any map you want, I don't care which map, and just show me where Iraq appears East of Medinah.

    On the maps I've looked at, directly East of Medinah is Riyadh.

    Since I don't speak Arabic, can you tell me what the hadith says in Arabic? Does it say that Muhammad(saws) pointed East? If it does, then you can never convince any logical human that he was pointing to Iraq unless his location was far north of Medinah at the time. Where was he when he pointed East? What was his location? (Note: He would have had to of been over 600 Kilometers north of Medinah in order for Iraq to be to his East.)

    "Imam Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a great man, an outstanding reformer and a zealous preacher, who appeared in the Arabian Peninsula in the twelfth century A.H. He was educated by his father in his homeland, Oyayna, a village located at Yamama in Najd, northwest to the city of Riyadh." - source: http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?...icle&artid=180

    "Muhammad ibn 'Abd Al-Wahhab ibn Sulayman ibn 'Ali ibn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Rashid al-Tamimi[1] (1703–1792) (Arabic: محمد بن عبد الوهاب التميمي‎) was an Islamic scholar born in Najd, in present-day Saudi Arabia."


    As I said, scholars and imams are not infallible, they are only humans. If one of your beloved Imams told you that the earth is flat, would you believe him? I don't believe that Najd is in Iraq because of what I have just mentioned with the geography and logic. So unless you can tell me something logical that the hadiths are indeed referring to Iraq then we must conclude that the hadiths are referring to the region of Saudi Arabia which encompasses the area of Riyadh...

    I do not argue so that I can be right, I only discuss from a logical standpoint what I have perceived to be the most accurate truth, and I never argue something unless I have found other scholars agree with my view, because if I'm the only one with my view then I obviously must be mistaken about something, in which case I would stay quiet and do some independant research. But when all of the logic, science, facts, and many scholars point to this conclusion then how can you expect me to disagree when your only argument is that one of your Imam's told you something which goes against reality.
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    Re: Hadiths on Najd (Wahabism)

    the old iraq was much larger then modern-day iraq

    and if you was in yemen would you still consider the UK to be in the west?
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