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  1. #1
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    Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Salaams, today we were tlkin with our science teacher about islam and the quraan and wot it says bout science etc...

    she is a agnostic and a devote biologist...she says theres no proof etc

    was there a big bang? as far as i kow and wot my mosaab explained to us is that allah did the big bang....

    wot dus islam say bout evolution? Did it occur?

    Islam and science!...

    much appreciated....

    quraan and hadeeths?.. Jazakullah

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    "allah did the big bang" would be best for the ummah, as it would allow a full embrace of science. But....fat chance.

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    Senior Member Muqarrib's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    "allah did the big bang" would be best for the ummah, as it would allow a full embrace of science. But....fat chance.

    Actually, Allah DID indeed do the Big Bang and He mentioned it in the Quran over 1400 years back:

    “Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?”
    [Quran 21:30]

    And here's the verse on the expanding Universe:
    “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.”
    [Quran 51:47]


    To learn more about the Scientific miracles of the Quran, you can visit this website:
    www.islamreligion.com/category/34

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    great! so why not embrace evolution and all the rest of it? what is islamically wrong with evolution? allah made the big bang then created genetic mutations and created reproduction and with those two things you have the basic mechanism whereby creatures evolve. allah didn't have to create all these individual creatures instead he just created this simple elegant mechanism to ensure something we can call evolution?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    theory of evolution says the fittest survive right? but thats not true is it? also evolution can't be proved or disproved. i believe in the big bang

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by res novae View Post
    theory of evolution says the fittest survive right? but thats not true is it? also evolution can't be proved or disproved. i believe in the big bang
    Imagine a colony of 100 birds, all the same type, in a wood where the food source is bugs that live underneath tree bark. Due to genetic mutations each bird has a slightly different length beak.

    The birds who happen to have slightly longer beaks can get at the bugs more easily yeh? In fact there is competition between the birds and with other creatures in getting those bugs which are in limited supply. Let's say one of the birds with a shorter beak fails to get enough bugs, so he tweets his last tweet and topples to the ground dead from starvation. Another short beaked bird is so weak through lack of food that he fails to escape from a fox. So now we have 2 dead birds both with shorter beaks.

    The 98 birds mate. Their offspring will inherit the characteristics of their parents through the genes. The new generation of birds will therefore tend to have longer beaks, on average, than their parental group. This is because 2 birds carrying short-beak genes have failed to reproduce (they died). This process carries on down the centuries so our colony of birds gets longer and longer beaks.

    Another colony of birds, exactly the same as the first colony, started off in a different location where the food was not the bugs but something else that doesn't require longer beaks. After centuries, their beaks didn't get longer. So now we have a divergence of this species of bird.

    So you can see it's not to do with the fittest as in stamina, but fittest in terms of ability to reproduce. And it's not chance either except perhaps for the genetic differences that cause slight physical differences in the first place. I hope this helps. It's not that hard to understand the basics, although my explanation has been simplified and does not contain the full picture.

  7. #7
    Spending the days indoors LailaTheMuslim's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    To TreadSoftly:

    The whole survival of the fittest description of nature is totally false. Animals are not in competition, they are co-operative beings, nature is much more social than they claim. Evolution just reflects the racist capitalist imperialist victorian ideology that was around the time that it was produced, believing that there were biological hierarchies, to justify white colonial rule of the rest of the world. Plus it's still a theory, and what about the whole issue of the transitional fossils?
    WhenTheWorldPushesYouToYourKnees-
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    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O people, beware of this shirk, for it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant. The one whom Allaah willed should speak said to him, “How can we beware of it when it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Say, Allaahumma innaa na’oodhu bika min an nushrika bika shay’an na’lamuhu wa nastaghfiruka limaa laa na’lam (O Allaah, we seek refuge with You from knowingly associating anything with You, and we seek Your forgiveness for that which we do unknowingly).” (Narrated by Ahmad, 4/403)


    “My intercession will be for those among my ummah who have committed major sins.” [Classed as Sahih by al-Albaani in Sahih Abi Dawood, 3965]

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    Senior Member Muqarrib's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    great! so why not embrace evolution and all the rest of it? what is islamically wrong with evolution? allah made the big bang then created genetic mutations and created reproduction and with those two things you have the basic mechanism whereby creatures evolve. allah didn't have to create all these individual creatures instead he just created this simple elegant mechanism to ensure something we can call evolution?

    Well first of all its just a THEORY of evolution. Its sad to see so many people make it a FACT of evolution.

    Secondly, Islam doesnt reject all of the theory of evolution. Some of it is Islamically acceptable. But Islam does reject the theory that man evolved form apes, or that God had nothing to do with Creation and Creation was just a random occurrence.

    Here a more detailed answer:
    www.islamreligion.com/articles/657

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503547388

    http://www.islamonline.net/English/S...rticle07.shtml


    Heres some videos by Islaimc scholars on this topic:
    www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrMHlHnF6qo

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3vglFjsDgw

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    Imagine a colony of 100 birds, all the same type, in a wood where the food source is bugs that live underneath tree bark. Due to genetic mutations each bird has a slightly different length beak.

    The birds who happen to have slightly longer beaks can get at the bugs more easily yeh? In fact there is competition between the birds and with other creatures in getting those bugs which are in limited supply. Let's say one of the birds with a shorter beak fails to get enough bugs, so he tweets his last tweet and topples to the ground dead from starvation. Another short beaked bird is so weak through lack of food that he fails to escape from a fox. So now we have 2 dead birds both with shorter beaks.

    The 98 birds mate. Their offspring will inherit the characteristics of their parents through the genes. The new generation of birds will therefore tend to have longer beaks, on average, than their parental group. This is because 2 birds carrying short-beak genes have failed to reproduce (they died). This process carries on down the centuries so our colony of birds gets longer and longer beaks.

    Another colony of birds, exactly the same as the first colony, started off in a different location where the food was not the bugs but something else that doesn't require longer beaks. After centuries, their beaks didn't get longer. So now we have a divergence of this species of bird.

    So you can see it's not to do with the fittest as in stamina, but fittest in terms of ability to reproduce. And it's not chance either except perhaps for the genetic differences that cause slight physical differences in the first place. I hope this helps. It's not that hard to understand the basics, although my explanation has been simplified and does not contain the full picture.
    ok i don't know too much, but i'm sure this isn't the same for humans because then only the fittest humans should exist in the world since all the weak ones should've been filtered out and only advantageous allelles should have been passed on to the offspring right? but we still have people who have inherited diseases/illnessess, shouldn't that not happen?
    anyway eventhough what you say makes alot of sense, it's still not proof because for that we would need to witness an ape evolve into a human....or not.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    there is a different between THEORY and "Scientific Theory"
    "They are Shuhadaa (witnesses) to the fact that this Deen is greater than life, that values are more important than blood and that principles are more precious than souls" - Sheikh 'Abdullah Azzam

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    To TreadSoftly:

    The whole survival of the fittest description of nature is totally false. Animals are not in competition, they are co-operative beings, nature is much more social than they claim. Evolution just reflects the racist capitalist imperialist victorian ideology that was around the time that it was produced, believing that there were biological hierarchies, to justify white colonial rule of the rest of the world. Plus it's still a theory, and what about the whole issue of the transitional fossils?
    Well said. When I was down in South Africa I saw with my own eyes a group of gazelles having tea with a lion and amicably discussing global warming while on a visit to India I saw three tigers performing first aid on a wounded chital. Sadly the chital did not make it but the service the tigers held for it's burial brought tears to my eyes. Obviously on both these occaisions as a white man I only had half my concentration on these beautiful scenes as my inate evilness was busy oppressing the natives and being racist.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoWolf View Post
    Well said. When I was down in South Africa I saw with my own eyes a group of gazelles having tea with a lion and amicably discussing global warming while on a visit to India I saw three tigers performing first aid on a wounded chital. Sadly the chital did not make it but the service the tigers held for it's burial brought tears to my eyes. Obviously on both these occaisions as a white man I only had half my concentration on these beautiful scenes as my inate evilness was busy oppressing the natives and being racist.
    loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool....

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    Spending the days indoors LailaTheMuslim's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    RicardoWolf:

    If my way of writing is too difficult for you to understand, don't hesitate to PM so I can break it down into chunks. There's no shame in adult illiteracy.

    Anyways, I meant that animals act in packs and hoards, though defending their own species from rival species, act co-operatively together, as Marxist Zoologist Richard Letowin said. Charles Darwin developed his theory in Victorian England- therefore was influenced by his time ...
    WhenTheWorldPushesYouToYourKnees-
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    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O people, beware of this shirk, for it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant. The one whom Allaah willed should speak said to him, “How can we beware of it when it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Say, Allaahumma innaa na’oodhu bika min an nushrika bika shay’an na’lamuhu wa nastaghfiruka limaa laa na’lam (O Allaah, we seek refuge with You from knowingly associating anything with You, and we seek Your forgiveness for that which we do unknowingly).” (Narrated by Ahmad, 4/403)


    “My intercession will be for those among my ummah who have committed major sins.” [Classed as Sahih by al-Albaani in Sahih Abi Dawood, 3965]

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoWolf View Post
    Well said. When I was down in South Africa I saw with my own eyes a group of gazelles having tea with a lion and amicably discussing global warming while on a visit to India I saw three tigers performing first aid on a wounded chital. Sadly the chital did not make it but the service the tigers held for it's burial brought tears to my eyes. Obviously on both these occaisions as a white man I only had half my concentration on these beautiful scenes as my inate evilness was busy oppressing the natives and being racist.
    That so cool! I wish a lion would have tea with me, I'm sure we'd have lots ot talk about. I wouldn't talk to the gazelle though...my dad once told me he ate one and somehow I'll feel like the gazelle will know about what my father did. I wouldn't be able to look at it in the eye.
    "...And never give up hope of Allah's Soothing Mercy: truly no one despairs of Allah's Soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith."
    Surah Yusuf
    [12:87]

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    RicardoWolf:

    If my way of writing is too difficult for you to understand, don't hesitate to PM so I can break it down into chunks. There's no shame in adult illiteracy.

    Anyways, I meant that animals act in packs and hoards, though defending their own species from rival species, act co-operatively together, as Marxist Zoologist Richard Letowin said. Charles Darwin developed his theory in Victorian England- therefore was influenced by his time ...
    I've got to be a good boy for a while so i'll describe your writing style as "confused". Which is super and there's nothing wrong with that. Well done. I have to honest that I'm still failing to find a single discernable logical point in anything you have typed but maybe that's just me?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoWolf View Post
    I've got to be a good boy for a while so i'll describe your writing style as "confused". Which is super and there's nothing wrong with that. Well done. I have to honest that I'm still failing to find a single discernable logical point in anything you have typed but maybe that's just me?
    yep its just you my unintelligent chum

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Aislalam ailakoum,

    Muslim scientists knew about evolution before Darwin, and Darwin and his students knew this:

    Zoology
    Further information: Islamic medicine and Early Islamic philosophy

    In the zoology field of biology, Muslim biologists developed theories on evolution which were widely taught in medieval Islamic schools. John William Draper, a contemporary of Charles Darwin, considered the "Mohammedan theory of evolution" to be developed "much farther than we are disposed to do, extending them even to inorganic or mineral things." According to al-Khazini, ideas on evolution were widespread among "common people" in the Islamic world by the 12th century.[192]

    The first Muslim biologist to develop a theory on evolution was al-Jahiz (781-869). He wrote on the effects of the environment on the likelihood of an animal to survive, and he first described the struggle for existence.[193][194] Al-Jahiz was also the first to discuss food chains,[195] and was also an early adherent of environmental determinism, arguing that the environment can determine the physical characteristics of the inhabitants of a certain community and that the origins of different human skin colors is the result of the environment.[196]

    Ibn al-Haytham wrote a book in which he argued for evolutionism (although not natural selection), and numerous other Islamic scholars and scientists, such as Ibn Miskawayh, the Brethren of Purity, al-Khazini, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī, Nasir al-Din Tusi, and Ibn Khaldun, discussed and developed these ideas. Translated into Latin, these works began to appear in the West after the Renaissance and appear to have had an impact on Western science.

    Ibn Miskawayh's al-Fawz al-Asghar and the Brethren of Purity's Encyclopedia of the Brethren of Purity (The Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa) expressed evolutionary ideas on how species evolved from matter, into vapor, and then water, then minerals, then plants, then animals, then apes, and then humans. These works were known in Europe and likely had an influence on Darwinism.[197]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science..._Islam#Zoology

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Shamil- View Post
    yep its just you my unintelligent chum
    Is that rather insulting? A bit like calling me an idiot?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Oh look another evolution thread. Let's go through the motions......

    "It's just a THEORY". You are correct. Do you believe in the Theory of Gravity ? Or is it angels pushing downwards ? If you dismiss Evolution because of the word theory then you don't understand the use of the word theory , never mind the theory itself.

    "Man didn't come from apes". Well done - another one correct. Man certainly did not evolve from apes. Mankind and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Please bookmark this post for the next thread where the same fallacies are trotted out.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muqarrib View Post
    Secondly, Islam doesnt reject all of the theory of evolution. Some of it is Islamically acceptable. But Islam does reject the theory that man evolved form apes, or that God had nothing to do with Creation and Creation was just a random occurrence.
    Thank you for your clarification on the Islamic position, that is helpful. You will find that evidence will overwhelm this position however, just like evidence overwhelmed people who insisted that the earth was flat.
    Quote Originally Posted by res novae View Post
    ok i don't know too much, but i'm sure this isn't the same for humans because then only the fittest humans should exist in the world since all the weak ones should've been filtered out and only advantageous allelles should have been passed on to the offspring right? but we still have people who have inherited diseases/illnessess, shouldn't that not happen?
    In my rough example, only 2 birds died out of 100. There may have been more with shorter beaks who managed to survive long enough to reproduce. Thus disadvantageous genes can still be passed on.
    Quote Originally Posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    Animals are not in competition, they are co-operative beings, nature is much more social than they claim.
    Don't get hung up on the word "fittest", as the traditional meaning of the word can easily lead to a misunderstanding of evolution. Animals are in competition with their environment, other animals, and with each other, especially for mates. And you are correct, many are also co-operative and social and there are a great many examples of altruism in animals. Where animals have a gene that promotes co-operative behaviour, and that co-operation helps the animals with that gene to reproduce successfully, then that gene is more likely to be passed on to the next generations; indeed, if a greater degree of co-operation leads to greater reproductive success, then that behaviour will become more pronounced down the generations. Thus I hope I've shown, very roughly, how genes that cause the physical characteristics and behaviours (including altruism) which promote reproductive success tend to get passed on to future generations (whereas those genes that tend to lead to reproductive failure tend to be passed on with less success).

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    Spending the days indoors LailaTheMuslim's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by DURH View Post
    Oh look another evolution thread. Let's go through the motions......

    "It's just a THEORY". You are correct. Do you believe in the Theory of Gravity ? Or is it angels pushing downwards ? If you dismiss Evolution because of the word theory then you don't understand the use of the word theory , never mind the theory itself.

    "Man didn't come from apes". Well done - another one correct. Man certainly did not evolve from apes. Mankind and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Please bookmark this post for the next thread where the same fallacies are trotted out.
    Yep, it's still a theory, last time I checked.
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    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O people, beware of this shirk, for it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant. The one whom Allaah willed should speak said to him, “How can we beware of it when it is more subtle than the footsteps of an ant, O Messenger of Allaah?” He said, “Say, Allaahumma innaa na’oodhu bika min an nushrika bika shay’an na’lamuhu wa nastaghfiruka limaa laa na’lam (O Allaah, we seek refuge with You from knowingly associating anything with You, and we seek Your forgiveness for that which we do unknowingly).” (Narrated by Ahmad, 4/403)


    “My intercession will be for those among my ummah who have committed major sins.” [Classed as Sahih by al-Albaani in Sahih Abi Dawood, 3965]

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by LailaTheMuslim View Post
    Yep, it's still a theory, last time I checked.
    Did you get as far as the 2nd paragraph and read all of it ?

    "As used in science, a theory is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena." - http://www.fsteiger.com/theory.html

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    Senior Member Muqarrib's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by DURH View Post
    Oh look another evolution thread. Let's go through the motions......

    "It's just a THEORY". You are correct. Do you believe in the Theory of Gravity ? Or is it angels pushing downwards ? If you dismiss Evolution because of the word theory then you don't understand the use of the word theory , never mind the theory itself.

    "Man didn't come from apes". Well done - another one correct. Man certainly did not evolve from apes. Mankind and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

    Please bookmark this post for the next thread where the same fallacies are trotted out.

    Well first of all, there is no dispute amongst Scientists about Gravity, Big Bang, etc. I know you atheists dont like to accept, but there is SIGNIFICANT scientific community that Rejects the Evolution theory and believes in Creationism. Why dont you go and sort out this difference among these scientists, before coming here and ramming it down our throats.

    I have already quoted verses above about Allah talking about Big Bang, every living thing created from water, etc, but you CONVENIENTLY ignored it. And I am sure you didnt even bother to have a look at the links I posted above, to read with an OPEN MIND, on what Islam has to say about Science.

    But you atheists DONT care what the Quran has to say, do you? While your European forefathers were living in pig sty's during the dark ages - it was Muslims with the help of Quran, that led the World in Astronomy, Mathematics, Personal Hygiene, Medicine, etc. But you will never acknowledge this will you?

    You would rather kiss a dead Moose's butt, as they say.

    I CHALLENGE you to prove 1 scientific fact in the Quran wrong. People have been trying to disprove the Quran for centuries - you can have a go. Maybe you can ask that loser Dawkins.

    People like you, RicardoWolf, treadsoftly have already made up your minds and no matter what the Quran tries to prove or disprove - you will REJECT it. Even if the Quran agreed with Evolution - you will STILL reject it. This Evolution argument is just a convenient excuse for you guys. And you will make any & every excuse to reject Allah's signs.


    As Allah says about disbelievers like you, who have closed their minds:

    "Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth). "
    [Chap 6 : verse 111]

    Even if God came knocking at your door or performed a magic act for you, you will still reject Him in your arrogance and self-delusion.

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    Senior Member Muqarrib's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    Thank you for your clarification on the Islamic position, that is helpful. You will find that evidence will overwhelm this position however, just like evidence overwhelmed people who insisted that the earth was flat.

    What evidence man? You and your loser atheist scientists have been DESPERATELY trying to prove this theory for over a century and ramming it down our throats. While you have not been able to prove EVEN 1 scientific fact in the Quran wrong.

    Thank God that all you loser atheists have always been a minority. Bunch of nobodys - always were and InshaAllah (God-willing) always will be.

    I CHALLENGE you and this DURH guy to prove even 1 scientific fact in the Quran wrong. Just because you have had a bad experience with being a Christian or this Pauline Bible has been proven wrong, like the Earth is Flat or the Earth is 4000 years old, etc. - DOES NOT mean that the Quran is also like that. Your entire approach to the Quran is wrong & deluded.

    This Quran which was revealed to an illiterate shepherd (pbuh), born in the middle of the desert - talking about the embryology, order of the planets, atmosphere, etc. Your Creator has given you the signs and evidence in the Quran to cross-examine it and He even Challenges you to prove His Word wrong - yet you atheists go on deluding yourselves that you are in control of you destiny and masters of this Earth.

    After all this you have the nerve to ask why this "Merciful" God wants to put you disbelievers in Hell?


    All I can say continue to delude yourself into thinking that its all darkness and end of existence after you die. But when the Angel of Death comes and rips your low-life blaspheming soul - then you will know.


    As Allah says about the disbelievers:

    They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'Allah never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'"
    They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

    [Chap 67: verse 9-10]


    So he (the disbeliever) neither believed (in this Quran, in the Message of Muhammad pbuh) nor prayed!
    But on the contrary, he belied (this Quran and the Message of Muhammad pbuh) and turned away!
    Then he walked in full pride to his family, in full conceit!
    Woe to you [O man (disbeliever)]! And then (again) woe to you!
    Again, Woe to you [O man (disbeliever)]! And then (again) woe to you!

    Does Man think that he will be left uncontrolled (unaccounted & without purpose)?
    Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
    Then did he become a leech-like clot(foetus); then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
    And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
    Has not He (Allah), then the power to give life to the dead?

    [Chap 75 :verses 31-40]


    Have fun on the DOJ.

  25. #25
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Muqarrib, one of your links to islamonline.net has the following to say about evolution:
    To say that all these things happened by themselves is nothing but absurd. It is like saying that words collapsed, mutated and then fixed into a wonderful encyclopedia by themselves. Or books mutated themselves and then fixed into a well-organized library. Nothing happened or happens by itself.
    Now go back and read my posts explaining evolution. I've made it really simple. Your scholar, using your religious version of "sensible rational and logical foundation" (which in reality means whatever sounds good in defending scripture, especially if it will confuddle and win over mr average muslim), clearly thinks it is all due to chance: 'let's laugh at the scientists who think those words could become an encyclopedia ho ho ho'. But the examples I've given show how massive complexity can form from very simple and elegant principles, not by chance.

    You have genes which carry behaviours and physical characteristics to the next generation; those with behaviours and physical characteristics which are less likely to lead to reproduction are less likely to pass on their genes as they are not reproducing; therefore subsequent generations are less like the former generations.

    For your scholar to call this chance and proceed to attack evolution on that basis is called a strawman argument, which is what religious people are exceedingly good at. They set up their opponents viewpoint as being "x" when in fact it is really "y", because "x" is like a man made of straw, easier to knock down.

    You are welcome to keep on deluding yourself though, but hopefully my explanation of evolution has helped a few people begin to realise what "y" is rather than the "x" they may have been spoonfed.

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    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Stop looking for proof.... with proof there's no room for faith. If there was conclusive proof of the existence of Allah, then this life would be a test of intelligence, not of faith.

    Allah could appear directly before you and say "yes that's right I DO exist" and you could still dismiss the whole thing as a hallucination, or He could do the same before a group of people and they could dismiss it as mass hysteria/mass hallucinations.

    So ask any athiest, what would you accept as conclusive proof of the existence of Allah?





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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Dhakiyya, you have expressed the most robust, strongest possible position for a religious person to take. Most Christians I know take this stance.

    But you may need to back-peddle. Is not the Koran deemed to be proof?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    Dhakiyya, you have expressed the most robust, strongest possible position for a religious person to take. Most Christians I know take this stance.

    But you may need to back-peddle. Is not the Koran deemed to be proof?
    it is a proof to us, we believe in it, but what do you consider as proof?
    islamway
    اللهم ارزقنا حُسن الخاتِمة


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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    But the examples I've given show how massive complexity can form from very simple and elegant principles, not by chance.
    But dont scientists believe that along time ago there was no life on earth? So where did the creatures from which we evolved come from?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by !Mujahidah! View Post
    But dont scientists believe that along time ago there was no life on earth? So where did the creatures from which we evolved come from?
    Let me Google that for you.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    But the question was to you, would you not have preferred to answer that or did you feel you didnt have the capability to?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    So these chemical compounds combined and came to life? Abit far fetched isnt it?

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tread Softly View Post
    Dhakiyya, you have expressed the most robust, strongest possible position for a religious person to take. Most Christians I know take this stance.

    But you may need to back-peddle. Is not the Koran deemed to be proof?
    depends how you define proof, the Qur'an is more than proof enough for me, but not for everyone, else the whole world would be Muslim..... show some atheists the proofs in the Qur'an they say "it's not proof, just co-incidence" or make up some extremely far fetched story to account for the proofs some other way.............

    studying science at university, I was told there's no such thing as conclusive proof.... only strong evidence...... you can't prove scientific theories only find strong evidence to support them...... even when theories in physics are mathematically proven it doesn't mean an alternative explanation won't come along again later...... newton's theories have mathematical proof yet they are wrong in the sense that they only tell a small part of the real story, you need Einstein's theories once you leave mild gravitational forces and slow speeds......

    and another way....... prove to me that YOU exist, that you are not some complex programme in my computer that makes your posts appear........ that if I meet you in real life, I'm not hallucinating......





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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    salaam ppl.
    lets all back peddle.

    you disbelievers talk about the theory of evolution but thats the easy part.
    lets go back to the big bang first i.e. this had to happen before we could theoretically 'evolve' from an amoeba to chimp to mankind.

    so how do u explain the big bang?
    was it a randon collision of matter resulting in life as we know it today?
    how is this even possible?
    on top of all this, how could such a system sustain itself?

    there is only 1 viable answer.
    all praise is to allah who gave us the revelation n took us out of the darkness.
    salaam.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    regarding the big bang, every physicist will tell you that physics cannot explain the big bang. Whatever caused it was not part of this universe and is not subject to the laws of physics. The big bang was not only the start of matter and energy, it was the beginning of time and space itself. Science can only study what is within this universe, and the furthest back in time they can go is one planck unit of time after the big bang (just after it happened, not when it happened) ... in fact to even speak of "before" the big bang is illogical as time started AT the big bang, there's no "before" and there's no "outside" the universe in any sense that humans can understand.

    it cannot be caused by a "random collision of matter" because there was no matter "before" the big bang (and no before for that matter - scuse the dreadful pun!!!!!!!)

    the laws of physics are part of this universe, they explain what happened after the big bang, but can't explain what caused it. there are various *theories* such as the multiverse theory that try to explain the big bang without involving an intelligent creator (God), but they will freely admit that they have no evidence whatsoever for the theories, and believing in God as the creator of the universe is just as scientific as beleiving any of the alternative theories, because there's no evidence for any of them...... simply that you can't even get evidence for what is "outside/beyond" the universe when even such terms as "outside" and "beyond" make no sense as time and space exists only within the universe

    SO - the creator of the universe not only created energy and matter, the creator of the universe also created time, space and the laws of physics.......

    My husband (who is Muslim and has an MA in astrophysics) said that lots of physicists are theists, but very few biologists are, and chemists fall in between. That was quite an interesting observation that my own observations have supported over the years........ I guess that's because biologists are of the MISTAKEN opinion that evolution disproves God. Actually it doesn't, evolution explains how life may have come about following the laws of physics. But WHO WROTE THE LAWS OF PHYSICS..........?? And if it is the case that Allah wrote the laws of physics in such a way that life could evolve, that was supposed to have happened by chance???????? The laws of physics need not be as they are, they could be anything, in fact it's a mercy of Allah that the laws of physics (most of them anyway, if we ignore aspects of quantum mechanics for the time being) are understandable and predictable by humans, because if they weren't we'd have no technology at all. In fact, if the laws of physics and certain critical variables were different, there wouldn't even be planets..... slightly different one way and the universe would be full of evenly spaced matter, just sitting there doing nothing, slightly different the other way and the universe would be riddled with black holes, either way there'd be no possibility of planets, never mind life...

    in fact the perfectness of how this universe is "set up" is such that physicists, in order to explain this universe existing by chance, HAVE TO concieve of an infinite number of other messed up universes to explain this one that happened to get it all right. That's the "multiverse" theory and as I said before there's no evidence to support it (how on earth are they going to prove other universes exist if they can't study anything outside of this one?) and it's equally as scientific to believe that this universe has an intelligent creator who got it right the first time..........

    Recommended reading: "black holes, wormholes and time machines" by Jim Al-Khalili (a cosmologist/astrophysicist who lectures at Surrey University)

    (for the record: I believe that Adam (as) and Isa (as) were created by miracles (i.e. not following the laws of physics) as described in the Qur'an. Allah wrote the laws of physics, He is not subject to them and can break them at will. As to the rest of the life on earth, maybe Allah made it all evolve, maybe He didn't..... the Qur'an doesn't say. But whatever way you look at it, evolution DOESN"T disprove the existence of Allah, it doesn't approach disproof....)





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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    BTW - I don't have time to get into an involved argument about physics with any atheists here, I'm 9 months pregnant mashaAllah and past my due date!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I've given a book reference so if I've made errors in what I've written above, anyone Muslim or non Muslim can read the book and see for themselves (both my errors, and about the nature of the big bang, universe creation etc and other really fascinating things about physics) from an actual physicist. It's very well written, without any maths (but you can get other more academic books for the mathematical proofs of what he's saying) and easy to read and understand (okay some of it takes a bit of mental effort to get your head round!!!) - it doesn't have stuff about evolution in it, that's an entirely different topic, but once you understand just how amazing the creation of the universe was, the theory of evolution kind of pales into insignificance........

    and the big bang is described in the Qur'an......... Allah says that the universe was created in a single piece then split asunder....... that's what happened with the big bang, a single piece (called a singularity by physicists) infinitely small yet infinitely dense, split asunder creating an expanding universe in which stars and planets were formed..... (the expansion of the universe is also in the Qur'an, I believe!)





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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muqarrib View Post
    Well first of all, there is no dispute amongst Scientists about Gravity, Big Bang, etc. I know you atheists dont like to accept, but there is SIGNIFICANT scientific community that Rejects the Evolution theory and believes in Creationism.
    This is just false. The overwhelming majority of modern , credible scientists believe in evolution.

    I have already quoted verses above about Allah talking about Big Bang, every living thing created from water, etc, but you CONVENIENTLY ignored it. And I am sure you didnt even bother to have a look at the links I posted above, to read with an OPEN MIND, on what Islam has to say about Science.
    The koran is a holy book not a scientific book. What does it say about contemporary scientific discoveries ?

    But you atheists DONT care what the Quran has to say, do you? While your European forefathers were living in pig sty's during the dark ages - it was Muslims with the help of Quran, that led the World in Astronomy, Mathematics, Personal Hygiene, Medicine, etc. But you will never acknowledge this will you?
    I fully acknowledge the contribution of Muslim scientists. Subsequent science built on their work , just as they built on the work of the Greeks , Romans , Babylonians etc. Where are the brilliant Muslim scientists now though ? The Dark Ages in Europe happened when the population was devoutly Christian - religion suppressed their ability for free-thought. The Muslim world is in an equivalent Dark Age now and it's tragic. Imagine the possibilities for mankind if the brain power wasted on religion and prayer was used for something more useful. Such a waste of talent.

    As Allah says about disbelievers like you, who have closed their minds:

    "Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth). "
    [Chap 6 : verse 111]

    Even if God came knocking at your door or performed a magic act for you, you will still reject Him in your arrogance and self-delusion.
    Nope - show me a limb that grows back after it's been chopped off or some other such miracle and I'll worship with the best of them. I'm extremely open-minded but I need proof. You have faith - this is belief in the absence of proof. Evidence for evolution is massively overwhelming. The debate is closed - evolution is real , observable and happening all around us. You have closed your mind to it because your religious faith suppresses your ability to think for yourself. You are told what to think by a 1400 year old text written by desert traders. What a waste.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    evolution DOESN"T disprove the existence of Allah
    Agreed (and I never said otherwise). Strange to note then the general hostility of religious people to science and evolution in particular.

    MominGuy you picked the wrong muslimah to bully.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muqarrib View Post
    And here's the verse on the expanding Universe:
    “And the heaven We created with might, and indeed We are (its) expander.”
    [Quran 51:47]]
    These are the traditional English translations

    051.047
    YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
    PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
    SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.


    Not that I advocate yet another thread on the so-called "scientific miracles" in the Quran...

    Been there, done that.
    Last edited by godard; 11-02-10 at 12:29 PM.

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    Re: Proof that there is a god and all about evolution is rubbish?



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