Register

If this is your first visit, please click the Sign Up now button to begin the process of creating your account so you can begin posting on our forums! The Sign Up process will only take up about a minute of two of your time.

Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 66
  1. #1
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Question ? Maria the Copt /the concubine thread

    , I have a few questions about Maria the Copt

    since she was a copt (Egyptian Christian) how come she is still given the title of Ummul Mu'mineen ?

    did she ever convert ? and if not, is it true that Umar ibn al Khattab led her janazah? and if that's true, why ?

    I'm not trying to be smart, I was just wondering if anyone knows of any good books on Maria, please share them.


  2. #2
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    295
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    salaam, i think the historians have a difference of opinion whether rasoolallah ever married her or she stayed a concubine. and also whether she became a muslim.

    read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

  3. #3

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    , I have a few questions about Maria the Copt

    since she was a copt (Egyptian Christian) how come she is still given the title of Ummul Mu'mineen ?

    did she ever convert ? and if not, is it true that Umar ibn al Khattab led her janazah? and if that's true, why ?

    I'm not trying to be smart, I was just wondering if anyone knows of any good books on Maria, please share them.

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not marry Mariyah al-Qibtiyyah, rather she was a concubine who was given to him by al-Muqawqis, the ruler of Egypt. That took place after the treaty of al-Hudaybiyah. Mariyah al-Qibtiyyah was a Christian, then she became Muslim (may Allaah be pleased with her).

    Ibn Sa’d said:

    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) lodged her – meaning Mariyah al-Qibtiyyah and her sister – with Umm Sulaym bint Milhaan, and the Messenger of Allaah (S) entered upon them and told them about Islam. He took Mariyah as a concubine and moved her to some property of his in al-‘Awaali… and she became a good Muslim.

    Al-Tabaqaat al-Kubra, 1/134-135

    Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

    Mariyah died during the caliphate of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab, in Muharram of 16 AH. ‘Umar gathered the people himself to attend her funeral, and he led the funeral prayer for her. She was buried in al-Baqee’.

    Al-Isti’aab, 4/ 1912

    Mariyah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was one of the Prophet’s concubines, not one of his wives. The Mothers of the Believers are the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “The Prophet is closer to the believers than their ownselves, and his wives are their (believers’) mothers (as regards respect and marriage)”

    [al-Ahzaab 33:6]

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had four concubines, one of whom was Mariyah.

    Ibn al-Qayyim said:

    Abu ‘Ubaydah said: He had four (concubines): Mariyah, who was the mother of his son Ibraaheem; Rayhaanah; another beautiful slave woman whom he acquired as a prisoner of war; and a slave woman who was given to him by Zaynab bint Jahsh.

    Zaad al-Ma’aad, 1/114

  4. #4
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    ..concubine ??

    A concubine is generally a woman in an ongoing, matrimonial-like relationship with a man, whom she cannot marry for any reason.

  5. #5
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    what on earth.. this is the first I've heard of this. I knew the ayah in suratul nisa but.. what ?

    Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married.

    A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.

    This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).

    Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

    [al-Nisa’ 4:3]

    What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own.
    And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

    [al-Ahzaab 33:50]

    “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

    Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.

    But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
    [al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]

    Al-Tabari said:

    Allaah says, “And those who guard their chastity” i.e., protect their private parts from doing everything that Allaah has forbidden, but they are not to blame if they do not guard their chastity from their wives or from the female slaves whom their rights hands possess.

    Tafseer al-Tabari, 29/84

    Ibn Katheer said:

    Taking a concubine as well as a wife is permissible according to the law of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him). Ibraaheem did that with Haajar, when he took her as a concubine when he was married to Saarah.

    Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 1/383

    And Ibn Katheer also said:

    The phrase “and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you” [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham’oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both.

    Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500

    The scholars are unanimously agreed that it is permissible.

    Ibn Qudaamah said:

    There is no dispute (among the scholars) that it is permissible to take concubines and to have intercourse with one's slave woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

    Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

    [al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]

    Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah was the umm walad (a slave woman who bore her master a child) of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and she was the mother of Ibraaheem, the son of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), of whom he said, “Her son set her free.” Haajar, the mother of Isma’eel (peace be upon him), was the concubine of Ibraaheem the close friend (khaleel) of the Most Merciful (peace be upon him). ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allaah be pleased with him) had a number of slave women who bore him children, to each of whom he left four hundred in his will. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) had slave women who bore him children, as did many of the Sahaabah. ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn, al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad and Saalim ibn ‘Abd-Allaah were all born from slave mothers

    Al-Mughni, 10/441

    Al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

    Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.”

    [al-Ma’aarij 70:29-30]

    The Book of Allaah indicates that the sexual relationships that are permitted are only of two types, either marriage or those (women slaves) whom one’s right hand possesses.

    Al-Umm, 5/43.

    The wife has no right to object to her husband owning female slaves or to his having intercourse with them.

    And Allaah knows best.

  6. #6
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    curiouser and curiouser...

    Allaah is Most Wise in the laws that He decrees for His slaves, but this wisdom is only apparent to those who seek it and believe that Allaah is All Wise, and looks at the interests that are served by the laws of Allaah which no man can see unless he ponders the matter, especially when there are those who attack those laws because they go against what they think are right and wise.

    With regard to your question about it being permissible for a master to be intimate with his slave woman, the answer is that that is because Allaah has permitted it. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

    “And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts)

    6. Except from their wives or (the slaves) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame”

    [al-Mu’minoon 23:6; al-Ma’aarij 70:30]

    That is subject to the condition that he has acquired her in a proper manner, and that this slave woman has not been given by her master in marriage to another man to whom she is still married. The reason why this is permitted is that this slave woman belongs to him, either because he has paid money to buy her or he has fought for the sake of Allaah (and acquired her among the war booty).

    Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The reason for which people may be taken as slaves is if they are kaafirs who are waging war against Allaah and His Messenger. If Allaah grants victory to the mujaahid Muslims, who are offering their souls, their wealth and all their resources and everything that Allaah has given them so that the word of Allaah might prevail over the kuffaar, then these kuffaar may become slaves, unless the imam chooses to let them go or to ransom them if that serves the interests of the Muslims.

    Adwa’ al-Bayaan, 3/387

    Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

    If it is said: If the slave is a Muslim, how can he be kept as a slave if the reason for which people may be taken as slaves is if they are kaafirs who are waging war against Allaah and His Messenger? The answer is that the basic principle which is well known to the scholars and all wise people is that a right that is already established by shar’i means cannot be superceded by rights that are established later on.

    When the Muslims take prisoners of war, they are given the right to enslave them by the law of the Creator of all, and He is the All-Wise, All-Aware. If this right is established, then the slave becomes a Muslim after that, his right to be freed from slavery because of his Islam is superceded by the right of the mujaahid whose right to enslave him took effect before he was a Muslim. It is not just or fair to waive the former right because of a latter right, as is well known to all wise people.

    Yes, it is good for the owner to set him free if he becomes Muslim, and Islam enjoins that and encourages it, and opens the door to doing so in many ways – he is referring to the fact that Allaah has decreed that when expiation takes the form of freeing a slave, the slave in question should be a Muslim –

    Glory be to the All Wise, All Aware: “And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Knower” [al-An’aam 6:115].

    “In truth” means in what He has told us; “in justice” means in His rulings.

    Undoubtedly that justice includes owning slaves and other rulings that are mentioned in the Qur’aan.

    Adwa’ al-Bayaan, 3/389.

    With regard to Muslims owning slaves, he should be very careful to establish that those who are bought or sold now are indeed slaves, because Islam has limited the sources of slaves which were many before the coming of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and has allowed only one source, which is kaafir prisoners of war, when the kuffaar are fighting the Muslims. There is no other way in which they may be enslaved except those who are captured as a result of fighting between kaffirs and Muslims, or their children. See also questions no. 26067 and 12562 for more information.

    And Allaah knows best.

  7. #7
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    wow I'm really glad I opened this topic

    Allah granted slaves and concubines — who had not yet gained their liberty — many human rights that had never been given to them before.
    For example, when a concubine begot a child by her master, the child would immediately be recognized as legal and free. The child would carry the father's name and inherit the same like any brothers and sisters begotten by wives. As for the concubine herself, she is directly elevated to a higher status, that is of om-el-walad (legal mother of a legal child). Her owner can no longer sell her as a slave and in case he dies, she is automatically free.


    So going on this peice of information.. Maria gave birth to Ibrahim and became um al walad, but of course he sadly died. Was she then still um al walad after his death and if so, doesn't that mean that she should be granted the title of ummul mu'mineen ?

    Also, is there a limit on the number of concubines a man can have ?

  8. #8

    Account Disabled
    TRANSWARP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    1,803
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    I don't know about numbers but Islam encourages marrying them and freeing them, I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere that if they convert to Islam they must be freed?

  9. #9

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    wow I'm really glad I opened this topic

    Allah granted slaves and concubines — who had not yet gained their liberty — many human rights that had never been given to them before.
    For example, when a concubine begot a child by her master, the child would immediately be recognized as legal and free. The child would carry the father's name and inherit the same like any brothers and sisters begotten by wives. As for the concubine herself, she is directly elevated to a higher status, that is of om-el-walad (legal mother of a legal child). Her owner can no longer sell her as a slave and in case he dies, she is automatically free.


    So going on this peice of information.. Maria gave birth to Ibrahim and became um al walad, but of course he sadly died. Was she then still um al walad after his death and if so, doesn't that mean that she should be granted the title of ummul mu'mineen ?

    Also, is there a limit on the number of concubines a man can have ?

    nope, the wives are the 11.1 whom had children.shehas rights and other then this but she is not one of the wives and does not meet the req of the title because that is specific to our beloved Prophet (saw) wives, our beloved mothers.

    There is no specific number one can have If i remember correctly.

  10. #10
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    curiouser and curiouser....[/I]
    not really... in those days slavery was a well-establishd social institution

    what is curiouser is that some people claim that these principles still apply today i e that it wud be still possible for muslims to own slaves and have sex with female slaves

    in a nutshell, those principles have to placed in their proper historical context

  11. #11
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    not really... in those days slavery was a well-establishd social institution

    what is curiouser is that some people claim that these principles still apply today i e that it wud be still possible for muslims to own slaves and have sex with female slaves

    in a nutshell, those principles have to placed in their proper historical context
    you can still have concubines these days, but there are regulations on how the slave/concubine is acquired. But of course it's better to free slaves. read post number 6

    I love learning

  12. #12
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    you can still have concubines these days, but there are regulations on how the slave/concubine is acquired.:
    slavery is abolished (at least in theory) everywhere

    anyone in favour of reestablishing it ?

  13. #13
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery is abolished (at least in theory) everywhere

    anyone in favour of reestablishing it ?

  14. #14

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Yes, there are. because if you think they can not be taken then you say there is not jihad in todays time, which is incorrect.
    There was Jihad Yesterday, There is Jihad Today. By Allah, there will be Jihad tommorow.

  15. #15
    pray 4 peace Tahiyah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    10,249
    Rep Power
    118

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery is abolished (at least in theory) everywhere

    anyone in favour of reestablishing it ?
    and i believe this was the goal as Islam is a living Deen and it gradually changed peoples condition from worse to better

  16. #16
    الله مولانا ولا مولى لهم Abu Jaffar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,659
    Rep Power
    32

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    not really... in those days slavery was a well-establishd social institution

    what is curiouser is that some people claim that these principles still apply today i e that it wud be still possible for muslims to own slaves and have sex with female slaves

    in a nutshell, those principles have to placed in their proper historical context
    Slavery rulings in islam didnt changeits the same since prophet mohammed (pbuh) died.
    islamway
    اللهم ارزقنا حُسن الخاتِمة


  17. #17

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jaffar View Post
    Slavery rulings in islam didnt changeits the same since prophet mohammed (pbuh) died.
    Yup. It was the same then and its the same now. If the brothers are ever blessed enough to struggle for the sake of Allah then they will know this.

  18. #18
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    295
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by aG123 View Post
    nope, the wives are the 11.1 whom had children.shehas rights and other then this but she is not one of the wives and does not meet the req of the title because that is specific to our beloved Prophet (saw) wives, our beloved mothers.

    There is no specific number one can have If i remember correctly.
    according to some she was married.

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    not really... in those days slavery was a well-establishd social institution

    what is curiouser is that some people claim that these principles still apply today i e that it wud be still possible for muslims to own slaves and have sex with female slaves

    in a nutshell, those principles have to placed in their proper historical context
    they still apply today

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery is abolished (at least in theory) everywhere

    anyone in favour of reestablishing it ?
    its not abolished. you can actually buy slaves in Africa, south america and some other parts in the world. wallahu'alam

  19. #19
    live islam 24/7 dawud_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    4,090
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    not really... in those days slavery was a well-establishd social institution

    what is curiouser is that some people claim that these principles still apply today i e that it wud be still possible for muslims to own slaves and have sex with female slaves

    in a nutshell, those principles have to placed in their proper historical context
    what is more curious is those who think the rules of islam are not for all times, for all places and seek to limit to the rules of Allah.

    yes, there are probably no valid slaves today, but slaves come from three sources -
    1. slaves from the times prior to islam
    2. children of slaves
    3. those taken in war

    so it is quite possible there could be, or are valid slaves today and will be in the future
    Daw'ud... is retired from ummah forum

  20. #20

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    According to authentic daleel. she was not the wife.

  21. #21
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by aG123 View Post
    Yes, there are. because if you think they can not be taken then you say there is not jihad in todays time, which is incorrect.
    There was Jihad Yesterday, There is Jihad Today. By Allah, there will be Jihad tommorow.
    slavery was an institution essential to the economy and the times of the prophet (pbuh) and all societies practiced it

    our economies now have moved away from reliance on slavery, which is substituted by salaried work

    to reintroduce slavery wud be simply pursuing some reactionary project -trying to resurrect past times

    all States have abolished slavery in their legal systems, and quite rightly so

    it survives in some little-developed countries (Mauretania, Mali etc) even if the governments have undertaken to abolish it and have ratified the relevant UN conventions

    the idea of resurrecting slavery just because it was practiced in past jihads is nonsensical

  22. #22
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by Tahiyah View Post
    and i believe this was the goal as Islam is a living Deen and it gradually changed peoples condition from worse to better
    i agree

    why go back to institutions wich we have abolishd in the course of our development ?

    and in any case, even if you move the hands on a clock backwards, it doesnt mean time will reverse itself

  23. #23
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery was an institution essential to the economy and the times of the prophet (pbuh) and all societies practiced it

    our economies now have moved away from reliance on slavery, which is substituted by salaried work

    to reintroduce slavery wud be simply pursuing some reactionary project -trying to resurrect past times

    all States have abolished slavery in their legal systems, and quite rightly so

    it survives in some little-developed countries (Mauretania, Mali etc) even if the governments have undertaken to abolish it and have ratified the relevant UN conventions

    the idea of resurrecting slavery just because it was practiced in past jihads is nonsensical
    Slavery is allowed in Islam, before you start bashing it and saying it only belongs in "little-developed countries" please read into it

    this is a good link, and here's a fantastic hadith to illustrate that slavery in kafir societies and slavery in muslim ones are two very different state of affairs.

    Narated by Al-Ma’rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, “I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names.” The Prophet said to me, ‘O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names you still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.’” – [Bukhari, Vol.1, Book 2, #29]

  24. #24

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery was an institution essential to the economy and the times of the prophet (pbuh) and all societies practiced it

    our economies now have moved away from reliance on slavery, which is substituted by salaried work

    to reintroduce slavery wud be simply pursuing some reactionary project -trying to resurrect past times

    all States have abolished slavery in their legal systems, and quite rightly so

    it survives in some little-developed countries (Mauretania, Mali etc) even if the governments have undertaken to abolish it and have ratified the relevant UN conventions

    the idea of resurrecting slavery just because it was practiced in past jihads is nonsensical
    Go study your deen.

  25. #25
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    Slavery is allowed in Islam, before you start bashing it
    slavery doesnt need to be bashed any more than it is now

    in present times, it is repulsive to human conscience and all States have abolished it in their legal systems (even if it survives in traditional societies in some lesser-developed countries mainly in West Africa)

    it was widely practiced in past times, and therefore it is foreseen and disciplined in Quran and Sunnah, even if viewed unfavourably

    why shud we go back on progress we have achieved ?

    this wud be mindless literalism

    do we really want to go back to having people bought and sold, to having slavegirls kept as concubines etc ?

    this is not my objective and it shudnt be the objective of any person, whether muslim or non-muslim

  26. #26
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by aG123 View Post
    Go study your deen.
    thank you and same to you

  27. #27

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    thank you and same to you
    Do you know the scholars differed it was better for a muslim to be free or a slave!!! thats how many rights the slave has. so inshaallah research this from islamic sources and good non apologetic muslim scholars....

    Slavery interms of islam is very different to the west concept of slavery. it will always exsist, because Jihad will always exsist.

  28. #28
    Odan Foulana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    6,690
    Rep Power
    73

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery doesnt need to be bashed any more than it is now

    in present times, it is repulsive to human conscience and all States have abolished it in their legal systems (even if it survives in traditional societies in some lesser-developed countries mainly in West Africa)
    the slavery pratcied and later abolished in these western nations is not the same form of slavery permitted in Islam.

    if you learn Islamic history, you will see that in one point of its history the muslim world was run by the Mamluks which is basically a "slave dynasty" in the Islamic sense.

    your definitions of slavery need to be clear when looking at it in an islamic context because the chain-gangs and abuses of the Atlantic Slave trade in Europe and slavery in Islam are not the same.

  29. #29
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery doesnt need to be bashed any more than it is now

    in present times, it is repulsive to human conscience and all States have abolished it in their legal systems (even if it survives in traditional societies in some lesser-developed countries mainly in West Africa)

    it was widely practiced in past times, and therefore it is foreseen and disciplined in Quran and Sunnah, even if viewed unfavourably

    why shud we go back on progress we have achieved ?

    this wud be mindless literalism

    do we really want to go back to having people bought and sold, to having slavegirls kept as concubines etc ?

    this is not my objective and it shudnt be the objective of any person, whether muslim or non-muslim
    Something that Allah has made halal should not be viewed as 'repulsive'. Yes it's better to free a slave, but it doesn't change the fact that slavery is allowed. Again, I urge you to read the hadith and the link, you still seem to have some kind of whipcracking, donkey dealing idea of slavery - in Islam this is not the case.

  30. #30
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by aG123 View Post
    Do you know the scholars differed it was better for a muslim to be free or a slave!!! thats how many rights the slave has. so inshaallah research this from islamic sources and good non apologetic muslim scholars....

  31. #31

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,168
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    IF you free a slave, islamically sometimes its not the best solution for them, if they are poor and have no where to go, sometimes its better for them to remain a slave and them to have food, shelter and all the rights and be able to worship Allah if they are muslim and if not live this life not in poverty.

  32. #32
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    295
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery doesnt need to be bashed any more than it is now

    in present times, it is repulsive to human conscience and all States have abolished it in their legal systems (even if it survives in traditional societies in some lesser-developed countries mainly in West Africa)

    it was widely practiced in past times, and therefore it is foreseen and disciplined in Quran and Sunnah, even if viewed unfavourably

    why shud we go back on progress we have achieved ?

    this wud be mindless literalism

    do we really want to go back to having people bought and sold, to having slavegirls kept as concubines etc ?

    this is not my objective and it shudnt be the objective of any person, whether muslim or non-muslim
    maybe it is better for you to keep your mouth closed.... you might make a statement of kufr.

  33. #33
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by aG123 View Post
    IF you free a slave, islamically sometimes its not the best solution for them, if they are poor and have no where to go, sometimes its better for them to remain a slave and them to have food, shelter and all the rights and be able to worship Allah if they are muslim and if not live this life not in poverty.
    Arguably a person who frees a slave isn't likely to simply drop them, since they wouldn't be doing their duty in continuing care for them but actually giving sadaqa and the reward for freeing a slave is great, but even if they were they would still be living off the rahma of Allah.



    This is interesting:

    For the tradition of taking slaves and concubines, that already existed then, Islam interfered by regulating it in an attempt to abolish it gradually. It couldn't have been abolished abruptly, since it was such a deep rooted tradition. Islam has always adopted the strategy of gradual reformation rather than rapid radical solutions, especially in aspects that are vital to people's lives such as religion, economy or politics. The issue of idol worshipping, for example, took 13 years of persuasion till the Prophet decided to pull idols down.

    Back to the historical survey of the issue of concubines, Islam worked gradually in two directions to free slaves and concubines. The first was by encouraging the believers to buy and free slaves. Almighty Allah offered Paradise as a reward for whoever did that. As a result of such a divine promise, a large number of slaves were freed.

    The second was by making the act of freeing slaves a form of kaffarah (punishment or penalty) as a make-up "penalty", if a person commits some forbidden deeds. And in this way, punishment became pleasing to both the slave and the punished one, who would have wanted to receive God's forgiveness, for the forbidden deed, by doing the good deed of freeing a slave.

  34. #34
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by FARAZSID View Post
    maybe it is better for you to keep your mouth closed.... you might make a statement of kufr.
    i think i have made my opinion abundantly clear

    -Islam takes a negative view of slavery, and encourages its gradual disappearance

    -we have (almost) achieved just that

    -some people want us to go back to square one

    very clear....

    -some muslims, on the basis of

  35. #35
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Sorry I forgot to add before that excerpt that this is not necessarily true: "Islam interfered by regulating it in an attempt to abolish it gradually". If Allah had meant for it to be abolished then it would have been, instead it is still halal and people should not be criticizing it.

  36. #36
    zsamirah
    Guests

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by *Sarah View Post
    Sorry I forgot to add before that excerpt that this is not necessarily true: "Islam interfered by regulating it in an attempt to abolish it gradually". If Allah had meant for it to be abolished then it would have been, instead it is still halal and people should not be criticizing it.
    As you quite rightly remark, the website you quoted actually agrees that Allah meant slavery to be abolished

    and this is exactly what has happened

    why shud it still be allowed ?

  37. #37
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    295
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    Allah meant slavery to be abolished
    bring your proof if you are truthful.

  38. #38
    الله أكبر و لله الحمد *Sarah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    3,238
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    As you quite rightly remark, the website you quoted actually agrees that Allah meant slavery to be abolished

    and this is exactly what has happened

    why shud it still be allowed ?
    Because Allah allows it. Are you going to take someone else's opinion over Allah's ?

    Allah said,

    [وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ]

    (and those (slaves) whom your right hands possess,) - this is an order to be kind to them because they are weak, being held as captives by others. An authentic Hadith records that during the illness that preceded his death, the Messenger of Allah continued advising his Ummah:

    «الصَّلَاةَ الصَّلَاةَ، وَمَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُكُم»

    ((Protect) the prayer, (protect) the prayer, and (those slaves) whom your hands possess.) He was repeating it until his tongue was still. Imam Ahmad recorded that Al-Miqdam bin Ma`dykarib said that the Messenger of Allah said,

    «مَا أَطْعَمْتَ نَفْسَكَ فَهُوَ لَكَ صَدَقَةٌ، وَمَا أَطْعَمْتَ وَلَدَكَ فَهُوَ لَكَ صَدَقَةٌ، وَمَا أَطْعَمْتَ زَوْجَتَكَ فَهُوَ لَكَ صَدَقَةٌ، وَمَا أَطْعَمْتَ خَادِمَكَ فَهُوَ لَكَ صَدَقَة»

    (What you feed yourself is a Sadaqah (charity) for you, what you feed your children is Sadaqah for you, what you feed your wife is Sadaqah for you and what you feed your servant is Sadaqah for you.) An-Nasa'i recorded this Hadith which has an authentic chain of narration, all the thanks are due to Allah. `Abdullah bin `Amr said to a caretaker of his, "Did you give the slaves their food yet'' He said, "No.'' Ibn `Amr said, "Go and give it to them, for the Messenger of Allah said,

    «كَفَى بِالْمَرْءِ إِثْمًا أَنْ يَحْبِسَ عَمَّنْ يَمْلِكُ قُوتَهُم»

    (It is enough sin for someone to prevent whomever he is responsible for from getting their food. )'' Muslim recorded this Hadith. Abu Hurayrah narrated that the Prophet said,

    «لِلْمَمْلُوكِ طَعَامُهُ وَكِسْوَتُهُ، وَلَا يُكَلَّفُ مِنَ الْعَمَلِ إِلَّا مَا يُطِيق»

    (The slave has the right to have food, clothing and to only be required to perform what he can bear of work.) Muslim also recorded this Hadith. Abu Hurayrah narrated that the Prophet said,

    «إِذَا أَتَى أَحَدَكُمْ خَادِمُهُ بِطَعَامِه، فَإِنْ لَمْ يُجْلِسْهُ مَعَهُ فَلْيُنَاوِلْهُ لُقْمَةً أَوْ لُقْمَتَيْنِ أَوْ أُكْلَةً أَوْ أُكْلتَيْنِ فَإِنَّهُ وَلِيَ حَرَّهُ وَعِلَاجَه»

    (When your servant brings meals to one of you, if he does not let him sit and share the meal, then he should at least give him a mouthful or two mouthfuls of that meal or a meal or two, for he has prepared it.) This is the wording collected by Al-Bukhari.

    And pray tell where it says that slavery should've been abolished in the link I gave you ? If that's the case I'll ask a mod to edit it out, clearly they haven't read the Qu'ran properly.

  39. #39
    live islam 24/7 dawud_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    4,090
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    slavery was an institution essential to the economy and the times of the prophet (pbuh) and all societies practiced it

    our economies now have moved away from reliance on slavery, which is substituted by salaried work

    to reintroduce slavery wud be simply pursuing some reactionary project -trying to resurrect past times

    all States have abolished slavery in their legal systems, and quite rightly so

    it survives in some little-developed countries (Mauretania, Mali etc) even if the governments have undertaken to abolish it and have ratified the relevant UN conventions

    the idea of resurrecting slavery just because it was practiced in past jihads is nonsensical
    only to someone who has no value for the sunnah, who seeks a judgement other than that of Rasoolullah saws.
    Daw'ud... is retired from ummah forum

  40. #40
    live islam 24/7 dawud_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    4,090
    Rep Power
    15

    Re: ? Maria the Copt

    Quote Originally Posted by zsamirah View Post
    As you quite rightly remark, the website you quoted actually agrees that Allah meant slavery to be abolished

    and this is exactly what has happened

    why shud it still be allowed ?
    you are a liar and Allah calls you a liar when he said in the Quran 'this day i have completed your religion for you'

    what was halal then is halal now, and what was haram then is haram now.
    Daw'ud... is retired from ummah forum


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2
Copyright © 2014 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Super PM System provided by vBSuper_PM (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com

MPADC.com Islamic Web Hosting | Muslim Ad Network | Islamic Nasheeds | Islamic Mobile App Developement Android & iPhone
Omar Esa Nasheed Artist
| Omar Esa Nasheeds | Islamic Web Hosting : Muslim Designers : Nasheeds : Labbayk Nasheeds : silk route jilbab: Hijab: : Web Islamic Newsletter: Islamic Web Hosting

Hijabs Online | Hijabs | Hijab Shop | Hijab Shop | AlJazeera Live, MBC Live, Makkah Live : Treasure of The Scholars