Al-Azhar Verdict on the Shi3a

[enchanted_1984]

Al-Azhar Verdict on the Shia

What follows is the Fatwa (religious verdict/ruling) of one of the Sunni world's most revered scholars, Sheikh Mahmood Shaltoot with regard to the Shia. Shaikh Shaltoot was the head of the renowned al-Azhar Theological school in Egypt, one of the main centers of Sunni scholarship in the world. It should be of interest to know that a few decades ago, a group of Sunni and Shia scholars formed a center at al-Azhar by the name of "Dar al-Taqreeb al-Madhahib al-Islamiyyah" which translates into "Center for bringing together the various Islamic schools of thought". The aim of the effort, as the name of the center indicates, was to bridge the gap between the various schools of thought, and bring about a mutual respect, understanding and appreciation of each school's contributions to the development of Islamic Jurisprudence, among the scholars of the different schools, so that they may in turn guide their followers toward the ultimate goal of unity, and of clinging to one rope, as the well-known Quranic verse, "Hold fast to the Rope of Allah and do not diverge" clearly demands of Muslims.
This massive effort finally bore its major fruit when Sheikh Shaltoot made the declaration whose translation is appended below. It should be made unequivocally clear as well, that al-Azhar's official position, vis a vis the propriety of following any of the Madhaahib (schools of law), including the Shi'ite Imami school, has remained unchanged since Shaikh Shaltoot's declaration.
For the readership's reference the phrase "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna 'Ashariyyah" means the Twelver Imami Shi'ite School of thought which comprises the overwhelming majority of Shi'ites today. The phrase "Twelver Shi'ites" is used interchangeably with "Ja'fari Shi'ites" and "Imami Shi'ites" in various literature. They are merely different names for the same school of thought.
"al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah" are a minority among the Shi'ites, concentrated mainly in Yemen located in the Eastern part of Arabian peninsula. For a more detailed description of the Zaidis vs. the Twelver Shi'ites, please refer to the book, "Shi'ite Islam" written by the great Shi'ite scholar, Allamah Tabataba'i, and translated by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, and published by the State University of New York Press (SUNY).
And as for Shaikh Shaltoot's declaration ...

Fatwa (ruling) of Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot

Head Office of al-Azhar University:
IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot, Head of the al-Azhar University, on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" School of Thought
His Excellency was asked:
Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?
His Excellency replied:
1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.
2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought. Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).
Signed, Mahmood Shaltoot.

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the Middle East which include, but are not limited to:
al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959. al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959.

• The above segment can also be found in the book "Inquiries about Islam", by Muhammad Jawad Chirri, Director of the Islamic Center of America, 1986 Detroit, Michigan.

Allah knows best!

[Forever Muslim]

isnt al azhar the same place that wants to ban the niqaab?

[Ibn Khattab]

Some of the fataawa coming out of Al-Azhar...Allaahu Musta'aan.

I read one fatwa where in order for a man and a woman to legally be in the same room together, she should breastfeed him so that they become related!!! Wallaahi I am not making this up!
This is the type of fataawa coming out from that place so I wouldnt be surprised!

As for the Shia-teen, then we all know what the ruling is with regards to them.

[muhammad81]

Some of the fataawa coming out of Al-Azhar...Allaahu Musta'aan.

I read one fatwa where in order for a man and a woman to legally be in the same room together, she should breastfeed him so that they become related!!! Wallaahi I am not making this up!
This is the type of fataawa coming out from that place so I wouldnt be surprised!

As for the Shia-teen, then we all know what the ruling is with regards to them.

Recently there was a story about them wanting to remove certain text from their schoolbooks to please the kuffaar
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205429

[mohabdul]

I heard that anyone can get a fatwa from Al Azhar for two gineih.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Azhar_Shia_Fatwa

Today, both Sunni and Shi'a students study at and graduate from the Al-Azhar University.

is this true?

[MWarrior]

Something you guys have not spotted is the OP (thread starter) is a shi'a herself hence why she has posted this. Who else would post this baatil/falsehood except for a shia.

Alhamdulillah people are aware of al azhar and their stance so this is not misleading anyone except the misguided shia's themselves.

[KeeKee]

i think sis enchanted is a zaidi shia?

i wouldn't accept anything al azhar comes out with. and other than zaidis, shias are kaffir.

[You]

For anyone condemning the fatwa, apart from the gut reaction, have you actually studied the exact sect of shias that al azhar said was ok?

i think sis enchanted is a zaidi shia?

i wouldn't accept anything al azhar comes out with. and other than zaidis, shias are kaffir.

The Zaidis are supposed to be Ja'faris (with a mix of hanafi fiqh), so the original fatwa could be about them.

I do not think takfir should be done lightly - study what they believe and if what they say is oputragious, present that when giving the takfir. Otherwise due to the boomerange effect, it is way too dangerous.

[Siradbarkat]

isnt al azhar the same place that wants to ban the niqaab?

YUp that school is becoming soo iffy and the fact that shias can graduate there..is not helping there case

[oneummahone]

shias are kaffir.

I thought you are an educated Muslimah, I hope your _harsh_ statement meant to condemn the false aqeedah of Ehle-Tasheeh, but it is not aligned with the Rasool Allah S.A.W Sunnah.

I mean the tone of your post is way too rude!! If you dont like Shia because they do shirk, they abuse Sahab R.A.A., then rest assure that you will not be accountable for their act in your grave or on the day of the judgement! nor calling someone Kaffir will give rise to your Emaan, just in case if you think you got right to call them Kaffir.

And if you want to hate, then hate their act (shirk, abusing Sahaba R.A.A etc), if you want to condemn, then condemn their act which is not aligned with Quran or Sunnah. And condemn the way the Rasool Allah S.A.W. used to condemned.

Someone asked a Hindu doctor in Karachi, Pakistan, that why Hindu do Shirk and do Sajda in front of a stone idol? the Hindu replied why the Muslim do sajda in front of stone-home (Baitullah)? Muslim replied we do not worship Baitullah, its just a direction, in reality the sajda is for Allah S.W.T. The hindu replied, similarly we do sajda in front of Idol, believing that we are doing sajda to our God. Nice logic, but still SHIRK is an attribute of Hinduism. The fact remain fact, words can be used intelligently, but underlying believe remain there.

What is the definition of Kaffir? The one who deny the existence of Allah S.W.T and his oneness, dont believe in Rasool Allah S.A.W as a rasool from Allah S.W.T, dont believe in Angels, on the day of judgement etc.
What is the definition of Shirk? The believe in more than one entity having supreme authority

Shia believe in Allah S.W.T., they believe in Rasool Allah S.A.W. as the last prophet, BUT they count Hazrat Ali R.A. and their Imams as supreme authority, see the SHIRK? I do not see how come they tagged as Kaffir?

Any Quranic verse or Hadith will be appreciated, where its appropriate to call some person who believe in Allah S.W.T and Rasool Allah S.A.W and have some aqeedah not of your school of thought and its okay to call him/her Kaffir? Do you call Jew or Christian Kaffir as well?

No one has authority to call someone Kaffir from within Muslims.

For Allah S.W.T sake, please stop thinking that 'I am on the sirat-al-mustaqeem because I follow XYZ school-of-thoght', in Surah Baqra, Allah S.W.T. is specially calling Jews but in general everyone who believes so, which means that Has Allah S.W.T. made any commitment and bound to it with them (Jews) that Allah S.W.T. has to let them enter Jannah, rather only those will enter in the Jannah who have abide the laws of Allah S.W.T. In following few verses Allah S.W.T include Saabi, Christians, Yahoodi etc in the list of day-dreamers.

[fisabilillah]

i think sis enchanted is a zaidi shia?
Yeh, that's what I thought.
i wouldn't accept anything al azhar comes out with. and other than zaidis, shias are kaffir.

Exactly-Alazhar's a joke, as if anyone takes them seriously after all the mockeries they've made, and anyway, I've heard this yonks ago.

[Musaaafir]

I thought you are an educated Muslimah, I hope your _harsh_ statement meant to condemn the false aqeedah of Ehle-Tasheeh, but it is not aligned with the Rasool Allah S.A.W Sunnah.

I mean the tone of your post is way too rude!! If you dont like Shia because they do shirk, they abuse Sahab R.A.A., then rest assure that you will not be accountable for their act in your grave or on the day of the judgement! nor calling someone Kaffir will give rise to your Emaan, just in case if you think you got right to call them Kaffir.

And if you want to hate, then hate their act (shirk, abusing Sahaba R.A.A etc), if you want to condemn, then condemn their act which is not aligned with Quran or Sunnah. And condemn the way the Rasool Allah S.A.W. used to condemned.

Someone asked a Hindu doctor in Karachi, Pakistan, that why Hindu do Shirk and do Sajda in front of a stone idol? the Hindu replied why the Muslim do sajda in front of stone-home (Baitullah)? Muslim replied we do not worship Baitullah, its just a direction, in reality the sajda is for Allah S.W.T. The hindu replied, similarly we do sajda in front of Idol, believing that we are doing sajda to our God. Nice logic, but still SHIRK is an attribute of Hinduism. The fact remain fact, words can be used intelligently, but underlying believe remain there.

What is the definition of Kaffir? The one who deny the existence of Allah S.W.T and his oneness, dont believe in Rasool Allah S.A.W as a rasool from Allah S.W.T, dont believe in Angels, on the day of judgement etc.
What is the definition of Shirk? The believe in more than one entity having supreme authority

Shia believe in Allah S.W.T., they believe in Rasool Allah S.A.W. as the last prophet, BUT they count Hazrat Ali R.A. and their Imams as supreme authority, see the SHIRK? I do not see how come they tagged as Kaffir?

Any Quranic verse or Hadith will be appreciated, where its appropriate to call some person who believe in Allah S.W.T and Rasool Allah S.A.W and have some aqeedah not of your school of thought and its okay to call him/her Kaffir? Do you call Jew or Christian Kaffir as well?

No one has authority to call someone Kaffir from within Muslims.

For Allah S.W.T sake, please stop thinking that 'I am on the sirat-al-mustaqeem because I follow XYZ school-of-thoght', in Surah Baqra, Allah S.W.T. is specially calling Jews but in general everyone who believes so, which means that Has Allah S.W.T. made any commitment and bound to it with them (Jews) that Allah S.W.T. has to let them enter Jannah, rather only those will enter in the Jannah who have abide the laws of Allah S.W.T. In following few verses Allah S.W.T include Saabi, Christians, Yahoodi etc in the list of day-dreamers.

She's not saying anything new. It has long been decided by 3ulama of the ummah. I guess your criticism in this post also falls on Imam bukhari (ra) and 4 Aimmah of the 4 madhahib and many 3ulama from the earlier generations until today's 3ulama.

and do you see the contradiction in your post? you are saying they are committing shirk and proving that they are, and saying no they are still not kaafir.

what do you think of someone who calls all the sa7haba kaafir except 4?

What do you think of someone who denies this quran as complete and believe that this quran is only one 3rd of the entire quran?

except zaidiyah, all shi3a hold this view. son ponder........

[Musaaafir]

And here is some more info I posted in another forum in the past,

As Salamu 3alaykum wa Ra7amtullahi wa Barakatuh. I ask Allah that everyone is in the best state of their Eman and health.

Sister Umm layth, I also would be interested to know your story of how u came to A7lus sunnah wa aljama3ah from Shee3a.

several years, I have come in contact with shee3as. They were from the majority of shee3a and the representative of the rulling government of the present day Iran. They came in the masjid and started cursing the sa7aba. so my friend come and tell me we have to go and debate with them. I was like oh really! that is easy. No one can be cursing Sa7haba (may Allah be pleased with them) like that. So I went and started talking to them. No matter what hadeeth i qoute from Bukharee or Muslim, they say "oh we don believe on that". I was like "What you believe then?" they go " we have Hadeeth recorded by our divine Imam". My friend and I debated and debated with them for days and months. Once it was straight 25 hours with the exception of break for salah and food. Then we thought to ourselves let's learn about them first before debating. So we started pretending that we are being convinced by what they are saying. So after few days we got the invitation to their weekly halaqat, where we 2 were only sunni. You must have seen How they revile sunni Islam there and the Sa7haba. According to them except 4 all the sa7haba became murtad (walyadhu billah). we attended their halaqat for one whole year. They had their big scholar who used to give the halaqat. This is what we have found out from them:
1) Foundation of their belief is the imamat of the 12 Imam beginning form Ali (radiallahu anh) and ending with Imam Mahdi. It's as important to the shee3a aqeedah as Esa (3alayhis salam) dying for the sins of humanity (walyadhubillah) to chirstians.
2) One can not enter Jannah without the intercession of Imam alhussein (radiallahu anh).
3) The Imams are devine, sinless and appointed by Allah
4) Imam mahdi is alive for almost 1000 years now and he will come back before the end time which is veyr soon. He is the one who appointed leader for shee3as. kmoenee was appointed by Imam mahdi.
5) The Quran has total of 17000 (yes Seventeen thousands) verses, and the true quran is with Imam mahdi. It was passed down to him from 3ali (radiallahu anh) thru other 10 Imams preceded him after 3ali (radiallahu anh). Imam Mahdi will bring this quran with him when he comes.
6) All the sa7haba (ridwanullahi anhum) apostated except 4 who are Abu Dhar Gifari, 3Ammar ibn yaseer, Miqdad and Salman alfarisi (ridwanullahi anhum).
7) Khomeni declared from one of his speech that if he were to enter madeenah as a conqueror, he will uproot the dead bodies of 2 munafiqun (walyadhubillah) and throw them out of madeenah. He swore that it will be his first mission in madeenah. (And this was from the booklet published by his people and was given to me by people his followers at the iranian embassy).
8) One must curse the sa7haba becasue they have betrayed the Rasool Sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam (walyadhubillah).
9) there are other minor things like mut3ah, combing salah, making masah on feet and so on which doesn't relate to aqeedah.

Yes brothers and sisters, I am aware of the extreme of them and the most moderate of them. the group of people i am talking about are from the majority of the shee3as, who rules the present day Iran. and Yes as brother silyas said, they hide the truth and lie to non-shee3as and it's part of their religion. I asked them about it. and they replied to me as such.

These are the first hand information I have gathered by attending their weekly halaqat for 1 year. I hope this was helpful. later I have met shee3as here in USA. I haven't found them to be different. And they seem to have no answer for the basic question.

The Key point in making dawah to them is to approach from Aqeedah. in fact to anyone we ought to approach with aqeedah with the emphasis on Tawheed. That way you don't need to use any of their sources. It could be done just by asking few simple questions to them. InshaAllah i will post them later tonight or tomorrow.

May Allah accept all of our deeds which we do to please him, keep us in the true path until death comes to us and grant us alfirdaus. Ameen. as Salamu 3alaykum wa Ra7matullah.

[Al-Farooq]

I read one fatwa where in order for a man and a woman to legally be in the same room together, she should breastfeed him so that they become related!!! Wallaahi I am not making this up!
This is the type of fataawa coming out from that place so I wouldnt be surprised!

La howla wa la quwwata illa billah.

I remember that fatwa...couldn't quite believe what I reading. If I remember correctly, it was a male and female who worked together but felt uncomfortable about the interaction between themselves. Still can't believe it actually....very difficult to take al-Azhar seriously at all after that.

Allahu musta'an

[oneummahone]

Akhi, I still do not understand why is it necessary to call them Kaffir! while all they are doing is Shirk. I never read Imam Bukhatir R.A., but the irritating thing is that why dont all the Sunni Muslim throw Ehl-e-Tasheeh out of Islam just like we did with Qadiyani? Whats the reason behind this hide n seek game? Why do Ehl-e-Tasheeh if they are really Kaffir are allowed to enter into Haram while at the same time Christan/Jews/etc are not? Why dont you call Kuffar's (America & gang) ally Saudia Arabia as Kaffir or put differently if KSA is allowing Kuffar to enter into Haram, whats the ruling about them? Why do sunni countries trade with Iran?

You are referring four Imams, and its evident that Imam Abu Hanifa used to have soft corner for Ehl-e-Bayt, and he never call someone as Kaffir in person. As far as fatwa is concern, brother, I dont want to debate over this, because there are too many complexities & debate-able points, where the end-result will be nothing.

In broader sense we all do shirk to some-extent and Munafiqat. Someone doing his job, because he thinks that if he do not work, he will die of hungar, is clearly a minor-shirk. While the fact is that Allah S.W.T. is Razziq. Many people not going on Khurooj for Jihad because they love their life or family etc, while there is a hadith which means, Jihad will not end untill the Dajjal's time.

I do not hear anyone calling them Mushrik or Munafiq!

what do you think of someone who calls all the sa7haba kaafir except 4?

Will you be accountable to not calling that person as Kaffir? After all he/she is not believing Sahaba R.A.A, nor he/she is denying Allah S.W.T or Rasool Allah S.A.W.

I heard Barelvi calling debobandi, Hanabli, Wahabi, Ahle-Hadith kaffir, without any fear of Allah S.W.T. But I dont hear anyone calling Barelvi as Kaffir, why? They do shirk as well, then why dont you call them Kaffir?

What do you think of someone who denies this quran as complete and believe that this quran is only one 3rd of the entire quran?

Do they believe that Quran in its current state is false? No all they think is that missing part will be brought forward by their last Imam. And for Imam their believe is that Imam inherits semi-prophecy.

Anyways brother, I have written this and above one post, just to have some attention over the rude tone of the KeeKee. And AlhamdOlilah its not any personal attack, nor I feel any sorry for this.

You and everyone got free will to call me or Ehl-e-Tasheeh or anyone Kaffir, do so if it makes your Emaan rock solid, it does not effect my Emaan, AlhamdOlilah!

[oneummahone]

The Key point in making dawah to them is to approach from Aqeedah. in fact to anyone we ought to approach with aqeedah with the emphasis on Tawheed. That way you don't need to use any of their sources. It could be done just by asking few simple questions to them. InshaAllah i will post them later tonight or tomorrow.

May Allah accept all of our deeds which we do to please him, keep us in the true path until death comes to us and grant us alfirdaus. Ameen. as Salamu 3alaykum wa Ra7matullah.

Akhi, may Allah S.W.T accept his mission and give us enough courage to do so, Ameen.

Similarly, my cousin asked one of my Shia friend, why he is Shia, my friend's reply was that because I see my family as Shia. After hearing this, my cousin gave him dawah. My friend's father who died a year ago have had his last ceremonies delivered by Shia and have been buried in Shia graveyard, he was basically from Sunni family, but died as Shia, and it was because he married with a Shia women.

Someone told me that, frequent marriages between Sunni & Shia caused the start of Movement against Shia from Jhang, Pakistan that then turned brutal and then spreaded in whole Pakistan. Once we have had an Eid-al-Fitr when there were tons of people guarding the rest of the crowd over the Salah of Eid, as a precautionary act against possible brutal-attack both in Shia and Sunni Mosques.

Its really annoying to see some weaker Sunni getting married with Shia girl, because I saw their children as confused in their whole life, trying to mashup the two very different believes and school of thought. Majority of them end up as Shia!!

But in order to stop these mashups or marriages, its not the right way to spread the Kalma "Kaffir Kaffir Shia Kaffir", AlhamdOlilah, there are ton of evidences to convince that Ahl-e-Sunnah Aqeedah is right one. While echoing the above mentioned Kalma will spread only hatred and nothing else.

[enchanted_1984]

Something you guys have not spotted is the OP (thread starter) is a shi'a herself hence why she has posted this. Who else would post this baatil/falsehood except for a shia.

Alhamdulillah people are aware of al azhar and their stance so this is not misleading anyone except the misguided shia's themselves.

That's not very nice.

Don't blame me, I didn't issue the fatwa. Don't blame the resident Shi3a because of some crazy things that some Imami Shi3a (Ithna Ashari3a & Ismaili) does! Not all Shi3a madhabs are same.

i think sis enchanted is a zaidi shia?

i wouldn't accept anything al azhar comes out with. and other than zaidis, shias are kaffir.

You are right. I am Zaidi madhab of Shi3a Islam.

Regarding Al-Azhar, only Allah knows best. Only a qualified Sheikh can issue a fatwa. The only thing we can do is use our common sense.

I wouldn't use Takfir if I were you. The Ithna Ashari3a or Ismailis are not Nizaris, Druze, Ahmadiya, Alevis or Alawites. They might be misguided to some extent, but not enough to consider them out of the fold of Islam.

At the end, only Allah knows best.

[Supernova Nebula]

I have issues with some fatwas by azharites esp by Tantawi and some shie' sects, but this is from wikipedia is worth the read, please read the last part of it. You dont have to believe in the imamah part though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madh%27hab

Shi'a Islam has its own school of law,

• The Jafari (or Ja'fari) Madh'hab: Ja'far as-Sadiq, believed by Shi'a to be the sixth infallible Imam. He is highly regarded for his work in education, tutoring such people as Abu Hanifa and Malik ibn Anas. Throughout his life, al-Sadiq lived and taught in Medina. [1] [2]

[Musaaafir]

Will you be accountable to not calling that person as Kaffir? After all he/she is not believing Sahaba R.A.A, nor he/she is denying Allah S.W.T or Rasool Allah S.A.W.

You and everyone got free will to call me or Ehl-e-Tasheeh or anyone Kaffir, do so if it makes your Emaan rock solid, it does not effect my Emaan, AlhamdOlilah!

wa alaykum as salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. InshaAllah i'lll write details reply when I have more time. I'm a little busy now.

I or sister keekee or no one here making takfir. it's an issue which has been decided about 1500 years ago. We are merely following the opinions of the scholars, well known and well accepted scholars of a7hlus sunnah wal jama3ah. If fact Imam Abu Haneefa (ra) was known for repeating that whoever doubts whether they are kaafir he hismself has committed kufr. So what you have been saying to me in reply also goes back to Imam Abu Haneefa (ra) and other very well known scholars from very early times.

To make sure, I'm not saying this apply to each and every individual shia. many of them doesn't come out and say this outright. So we don't know what they belief, if they are doing taqiyah. This is a general ruling about rafidha shia, which are all shias other than zaidiyah.

Do they believe that Quran in its current state is false? No all they think is that missing part will be brought forward by their last Imam. And for Imam their believe is that Imam inherits semi-prophecy

Can you sit back and read again what you just wrote here. Do you really think a Muslim can believe that some part of the Quran is missin and still remain a muslim? are you serious? think again.

anyways, there are many other things. i'll write later inshaAllah.

and you didn't have say that if I want I or any other people can call you kaafir. again I was not making takfir here or i didn't see anyone in this forum doing so. again, if someone just says he or she's shia, that's not enough for saying he or she is a kaafir. they have to clearly say the statements that rafidha shia believes which constitutes disbelief.

you consider yourself sunni though, right?

[ahaneefah]

Shia Revealed Thread:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?

[Sirius]

And here is some more info I posted in another forum in the past,

As Salamu 3alaykum wa Ra7amtullahi wa Barakatuh. I ask Allah that everyone is in the best state of their Eman and health.

Sister Umm layth, I also would be interested to know your story of how u came to A7lus sunnah wa aljama3ah from Shee3a.

several years, I have come in contact with shee3as. They were from the majority of shee3a and the representative of the rulling government of the present day Iran. They came in the masjid and started cursing the sa7aba. so my friend come and tell me we have to go and debate with them. I was like oh really! that is easy. No one can be cursing Sa7haba (may Allah be pleased with them) like that. So I went and started talking to them. No matter what hadeeth i qoute from Bukharee or Muslim, they say "oh we don believe on that". I was like "What you believe then?" they go " we have Hadeeth recorded by our divine Imam". My friend and I debated and debated with them for days and months. Once it was straight 25 hours with the exception of break for salah and food. Then we thought to ourselves let's learn about them first before debating. So we started pretending that we are being convinced by what they are saying. So after few days we got the invitation to their weekly halaqat, where we 2 were only sunni. You must have seen How they revile sunni Islam there and the Sa7haba. According to them except 4 all the sa7haba became murtad (walyadhu billah). we attended their halaqat for one whole year. They had their big scholar who used to give the halaqat. This is what we have found out from them:
1) Foundation of their belief is the imamat of the 12 Imam beginning form Ali (radiallahu anh) and ending with Imam Mahdi. It's as important to the shee3a aqeedah as Esa (3alayhis salam) dying for the sins of humanity (walyadhubillah) to chirstians.
2) One can not enter Jannah without the intercession of Imam alhussein (radiallahu anh).
3) The Imams are devine, sinless and appointed by Allah
4) Imam mahdi is alive for almost 1000 years now and he will come back before the end time which is veyr soon. He is the one who appointed leader for shee3as. kmoenee was appointed by Imam mahdi.
5) The Quran has total of 17000 (yes Seventeen thousands) verses, and the true quran is with Imam mahdi. It was passed down to him from 3ali (radiallahu anh) thru other 10 Imams preceded him after 3ali (radiallahu anh). Imam Mahdi will bring this quran with him when he comes.
6) All the sa7haba (ridwanullahi anhum) apostated except 4 who are Abu Dhar Gifari, 3Ammar ibn yaseer, Miqdad and Salman alfarisi (ridwanullahi anhum).
7) Khomeni declared from one of his speech that if he were to enter madeenah as a conqueror, he will uproot the dead bodies of 2 munafiqun (walyadhubillah) and throw them out of madeenah. He swore that it will be his first mission in madeenah. (And this was from the booklet published by his people and was given to me by people his followers at the iranian embassy).
8) One must curse the sa7haba becasue they have betrayed the Rasool Sallallahu 3alayhi wa sallam (walyadhubillah).
9) there are other minor things like mut3ah, combing salah, making masah on feet and so on which doesn't relate to aqeedah.

Yes brothers and sisters, I am aware of the extreme of them and the most moderate of them. the group of people i am talking about are from the majority of the shee3as, who rules the present day Iran. and Yes as brother silyas said, they hide the truth and lie to non-shee3as and it's part of their religion. I asked them about it. and they replied to me as such.

These are the first hand information I have gathered by attending their weekly halaqat for 1 year. I hope this was helpful. later I have met shee3as here in USA. I haven't found them to be different. And they seem to have no answer for the basic question.

The Key point in making dawah to them is to approach from Aqeedah. in fact to anyone we ought to approach with aqeedah with the emphasis on Tawheed. That way you don't need to use any of their sources. It could be done just by asking few simple questions to them. InshaAllah i will post them later tonight or tomorrow.

May Allah accept all of our deeds which we do to please him, keep us in the true path until death comes to us and grant us alfirdaus. Ameen. as Salamu 3alaykum wa Ra7matullah.

May Allah guide them.

[fisabilillah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8ATG...eature=related

"Abu Bakr and Omar, both are like a mouse, a rat, scared, cowards, and did not achieve any success. Cowards..who were unable to kill even one mushrik at the very least" this is an example of what these kaffarah teach and preach.

BTW, I only translated from 0:59 seconds to 1:25 seconds of this video. I couldn't even listen to any more of what he was saying لعنة الله عليه

Yet you'll find people that defend them, and justify there acts, and sympathise with them.

قاتلهم الله

[oneummahone]

wa alaykum as salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. InshaAllah i'lll write details reply when I have more time. I'm a little busy now.

... anyways, there are many other things. i'll write later inshaAllah.

Sure akhi take your time, I would really need some writeups from you, because you have already done work in the right direction, AlhamdOlilah.

I or sister keekee or no one here making takfir. it's an issue which has been decided about 1500 years ago. We are merely following the opinions of the scholars, well known and well accepted scholars of a7hlus sunnah wal jama3ah.

Pardon me for taking it as takfir. I understood your's and KeeKee's point now, AlhamdOlilah. Infact in Pakistan, its very sad to see every sect throwing trash over other, in the name of Islam, even in Masjid/Madrassa we are being feeded hatred against people, not their false ideology. Sometime I feel like if I start believing those weird teachings from Masjid/Madrassa, I would be count only myself as a true Muslim and rest of the world as Kafir, Astaghfir Allah.

you consider yourself sunni though, right?

AlhamdOlilah I am Muslim, and yes I follow Hanafi fiqh, but without taqleed. And again not _calling_ some very mis-guided Shia sect as Kafir has nothing to do with Aqeedah. Its not that if you do not call a Kaffir, Kaffir you will become Kaffir, one will become Kaffir if and only if he starts following Kufar or atleast appreciate/follow-part-of their Kuffar in the name of anything like peace or brotherhood. Therefore, I am sure, Imam Abu Hanifa R.A. ruling about the person who do not call Shia as Kafir, _do not_ apply over me, insha ALLAH.

Rest assured akhi, no Muslim who follows Quran & Sunnah, can doubt over the Quran as we have got it in our hands, AlhamdOlilah.

Akhi Jaza Ka Allah for sharing the knowledge it really helped, ma Sha Allah you got the tone to convince and know words to convey the truth, but as you know its incomplete, I will be really thankful for your writeup including those points that could be used as Dawah to Shia sect.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224993

[al faqeer]

i think sis enchanted is a zaidi shia?

i wouldn't accept anything al azhar comes out with. and other than zaidis, shias are kaffir.

Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition pf Kaafir pls ?

[MWarrior]

Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition pf Kaafir pls ?

Qadianis believe in Allah and his rasul SAW yet they are kaafir according to all scholars. why is that ? So there are other beliefs that can take you outside the fold of Islam and make you a kaafir. There is alot lot more to believing in Allah and his messenger SAW

Imam abu haneefa RH himself said shias are kaafir... that is Someone who is more knowledgable than me you and everyone here put together and devoted his whole life to studying the deen. (many other respected scholars say the same about the shia-teen)

[KeeKee]

if it is rude to speak the truth about a people who slander the sahaba and the ummahatul mu'mineen then sorry, but rude it is.
the majority of ulama have said that shia are not Muslim, and i will take the word of the ulama over that of laymen.

She's not saying anything new. It has long been decided by 3ulama of the ummah. I guess your criticism in this post also falls on Imam bukhari (ra) and 4 Aimmah of the 4 madhahib and many 3ulama from the earlier generations until today's 3ulama.

and do you see the contradiction in your post? you are saying they are committing shirk and proving that they are, and saying no they are still not kaafir.

what do you think of someone who calls all the sa7haba kaafir except 4?

What do you think of someone who denies this quran as complete and believe that this quran is only one 3rd of the entire quran?

except zaidiyah, all shi3a hold this view. son ponder........

[al faqeer]

Qadianis believe in Allah and his rasul SAW yet they are kaafir according to all scholars. why is that ? So there are other beliefs that can take you outside the fold of Islam and make you a kaafir. There is alot lot more to believing in Allah and his messenger SAW

Imam abu haneefa RH himself said shias are kaafir... that is Someone who is more knowledgable than me you and everyone here put together and devoted his whole life to studying the deen. (many other respected scholars say the same about the shia-teen)

No Qadianis believe that mirza ghulam ahmad is a prophet that makes them Kaafir .

Now answer my questions head on please :

Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition of Kaafir pls ?

+ Shia are more than one sect which ones are Kaafir , A detailed answer pls .

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

No Qadianis believe that mirza ghulam ahmad is a prophet that makes them Kaafir .

Now answer my questions head on please :

Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition of Kaafir pls ?

+ Shia are more than one sect which ones are Kaafir , A detailed answer pls .

the ones who believe in infalliable Imams & who curse the Sahaba

[al faqeer]

the ones who believe in infalliable Imams & who curse the Sahaba

Answer all the questions , Dont give me one liners I asked for a detailed answer pls .

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Answer all the questions , Dont give me one liners I asked for a detailed answer pls .

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224993

[al faqeer]

Already read that and its concentrated on 12'vers ,

I want my questions answered bud


Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition of Kaafir pls ?

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Already read that and its concentrated on 12'vers ,

I want my questions answered bud


Kafir ? as in reject Allah SWT and the prophet PBUH ?

or Kafir as in what ?

what is the definition of Kaafir pls ?

majority of todays shia's are twelvers
do you consider twelvers who hold those beliefs to be Muslims?
what do you call someone who isnt Muslim?

[al faqeer]

majority of todays shia's are twelvers
do you consider twelvers who hold those beliefs to be Muslims?
what do call someone who isnt Muslim?

Answer my Questions first please for the last time , dont answer it with questions .

Shukran

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

I think Ive made my point.

:

[al faqeer]

I think Ive made my point.

Have fun debating with others and take care.
:

I rest my case you cant answer me obviously , you see Kafir has a definition , and if these people were kafir in the sense of rejecting Allah SWT and his messenger they would never have been allowed into the holy places each year to perform Hajj .

However if they say the Quran is Mu7arraf thats Kufr or if they over glorify an Imam to state of a Semi God then for sure it would be Shirk not Kufr cause that means they associating People with Allah .

Common sense .

[enchanted_1984]

Qadianis believe in Allah and his rasul SAW yet they are kaafir according to all scholars. why is that ? So there are other beliefs that can take you outside the fold of Islam and make you a kaafir. There is alot lot more to believing in Allah and his messenger SAW

Imam abu haneefa RH himself said shias are kaafir... that is Someone who is more knowledgable than me you and everyone here put together and devoted his whole life to studying the deen. (many other respected scholars say the same about the shia-teen)

Qadiani/Ahmadiyas believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet and a rasool, astagfirullah! They also believe that anyone who does not believe that Ghulam Ahmad is not a prophet will take him/her outside the fold of Islam. They also believe that Isa, PBUH traveled to India to seek out the lost tribes of Israel. According to them, he died in Kashmir of old age. Anything and everything about this faith takes them out of the fold of Islam.

Alawis believe that Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr is a prophet. They also believe in reincarnation. Their beliefs are more centered around gnosticism than Islam. Again, their beliefs take them out of the fold of Islam.

Nizaris believe that Aga Khan is an infallible guide and can grant salvation. They don't pray in masjids, rather small congregations called Jamaat Khana.

There are many more to count. All of these sects are ghulat or strayed far far away from Islam to consider them as Muslims.

I don't approve of the Sahaba bashing that some Imami Shi3a engages upon. But what they do makes them 'misguided' and they are not kaffirs.

[ahaneefah]

Qadiani/Ahmadiyas believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a prophet and a rasool, astagfirullah! They also believe that anyone who does not believe that Ghulam Ahmad is not a prophet will take him/her outside the fold of Islam. They also believe that Isa, PBUH traveled to India to seek out the lost tribes of Israel. According to them, he died in Kashmir of old age. Anything and everything about this faith takes them out of the fold of Islam.

Alawis believe that Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr is a prophet. They also believe in reincarnation. Their beliefs are more centered around gnosticism than Islam. Again, their beliefs take them out of the fold of Islam.

Nizaris believe that Aga Khan is an infallible guide and can grant salvation. They don't pray in masjids, rather small congregations called Jamaat Khana.

There are many more to count. All of these sects are ghulat or strayed far far away from Islam to consider them as Muslims.

I don't approve of the Sahaba bashing that some Imami Shi3a engages upon. But what they do makes them 'misguided' and they are not kaffirs.

In other words, if they curse the Sahabah it does not make them kaffirs?

[Ibn Khattab]

Even tho Allah SWT spoke of them by name in the Qur'an and the Prophet S said: They are in Jannah. Awqamaa Qaal Alayhisalaatu Wasalaaam.