dua in congregation - is it sunnah?

[thetruth]

dua in congregation - is it sunnah?

or is it biddah?

I noticed certain masjids due congregational dua's whilst some dont.

why is this?

[MuslimMedic]

this is what ive heard about this:

The prophet (saw) did congregational dua on some occasions e.g. before a war, in Jumma khuthba etc. but he didnt do it after every fard salat as many musjids do. so some scholars say it is bidah for that reason.
however
some argue that its not bidah because congregational dua is allowed, and it hasnt been forbidden after fard salat.
also some imams argue that many people dont know that it is good to do dua after salat. those who do know its good, they make dua for worldly things, but never things like forgiveness etc. so the some imams prefer to do it in a group because the imam know the right things to make dua for (i hope that made sense lol)

thats all i know about congregational dua. is it bidah or not? i dont know tbh. i think it would be best to bug scholars about this.

[Peacenik]

dua in congregation - is it sunnah?

or is it biddah?

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

[thetruth]

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

ok, but then why is it that only a certain group of muslims read the dua in such a fashion and others dont. I mean the only group that tend to do this are the sufi's or beralwis...if you know what I mean, why dont the rest do it?

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

ok, but then why is it that only a certain group of muslims read the dua in such a fashion and others dont. I mean the only group that tend to do this are the sufi's or beralwis...if you know what I mean, why dont the rest do it?

most hanafi masjids do this
its not sufi thing. I heard in a lecture by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf that in the maliki madhab its makruh to do it after every salat. and HY is a sufi so I think it differs from madhab to madhab.

[thetruth]

most hanafi masjids do this
its not an exclusive sufi thing. I heard in a lecture by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf that in the maliki madhab its makruh to do it after every salat. and HY is a sufi so I think it differs from madhab to madhab.

so, according to the hanafi madhab, its a done then to do dua in congregation, after a funeral / janaza, weddings etc??

[MWarrior]

Nothing wrong with making du'a after salaah but if some think it's a must, part of salaah, a sunnah etc then that is wrong.

[Binyamine]

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

What is your source????

I always hear in Khutbah that any innovation in Islaam is a bidra and every bidra leads to hellfire!!!

Brother, Also know that this deen al Islaam, is a complete one, and hence we are not allowed to remove nor add anything new to it!!!

[naila-k]

What is your source????

I always hear in Khutbah that any innovation in Islaam is a bidra and every bidra leads to hellfire!!!

Brother, Also know that this deen al Islaam, is a complete one, and hence we are not allowed to remove nor add anything new to it!!!

So would you say that microphones during the salah is bidah? or televising taraweeh from Mecca? etc etc

[Binyamine]

So would you say that microphones during the salah is bidah? or televising taraweeh from Mecca? etc etc

Peace mercy and blessing of Allah be upon all of us.

Dear sister, i never implied it. Please do not deform my post

Bidra in religion would mean innovation in the way we supplicate and worship our Lord Allah.

As for microphone it is a must in places where in a masjid we have thousands of people. Technology has its place in ISLAAM, but innovation in way of supplicating and worshipping of Allah is wrong. Know that whatever we need to know about these 2 aspects have already been taught to us by our beloved prophet Mohammad ( peace be upon him )

If i thought that way we thought that i think, then i would never be using the computer and the internet!!!

[ghuraba23]

ive lisened to many lectures e.g yasir qadhi stating the congregational dua after every jammah fard is bida as its a act of worship i choose to do my tasbeeh and do an individual dua and leave this usually before they have finished their congregational dua.

[ya akhi]

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

What? Good and Bad bid'ah? You confused or something?

[Basil al-Mamluk]

Peace mercy and blessing of Allah be upon all of us.

Dear sister, i never implied it. Please do not deform my post

Bidra in religion would mean innovation in the way we supplicate and worship our Lord Allah.

As for microphone it is a must in places where in a masjid we have thousands of people. Technology has its place in ISLAAM, but innovation in way of supplicating and worshipping of Allah is wrong. Know that whatever we need to know about these 2 aspects have already been taught to us by our beloved prophet Mohammad ( peace be upon him )

If i thought that way we thought that i think, then i would never be using the computer and the internet!!!

Why do you refer to it as bidra?

[Peacenik]

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

What is your source????

I always hear in Khutbah that any innovation in Islaam is a bidra and every bidra leads to hellfire!!!

Brother, Also know that this deen al Islaam, is a complete one, and hence we are not allowed to remove nor add anything new to it!!!

What? Good and Bad bid'ah? You confused or something?

Brothers, please see the following link :

The Concept of Bid'a in the Islamic Shari'a

(The following is the text of a talk given by Shaikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller at Nottingham and Trent University on Wednesday 25th January 1995) :

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/bida.htm

[al faqeer]

You have to differentiate between 'good' bida and 'bad' (bida). Not all innovation is haraam.

? Thats a Phenomenon coming from you LOL !

[Peacenik]

? Thats a Phenomenon coming from you LOL !

Er, yeah....

(btw, read the link; insha'Allah it'll make it more clearer)

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

dua in congregation isnt bidah. because the Prophet used to read the duas aloud, that is how the sahaba learnt them. and how can it be that the Prophet read a dua and the sahaba didnt say ameen to it. thats all that a congregational dua is.

but believing its neccessary after every fardh salat then that might be

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

? Thats a Phenomenon coming from you LOL !

I know, I thought peacey was salafi *shocked*

[Peacenik]

I know, I thought peacey was salafi *shock*

Nothing wrong with that

(btw, stop following me around; it's getting kinda creepy)

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Nothing wrong with that

didnt say there was

(btw, stop following me around; it's getting kinda creepy)

Im not

[AbuIbraheem.]

dua in congregation isnt bidah. because the Prophet used to read the duas aloud, that is how the sahaba learnt them. and how can it be that the Prophet read a dua and the sahaba didnt say ameen to it. thats all that a congregational dua is.

but believing its neccessary after every fardh salat then that might be

Did the Prophet (saw) ever do Congregational Dua, raising his hands after Salah, if so can I see the evidence that he did?

Why do most Hanafi masajid do it after EVERY salah, if you ask the members of the congregation if it is Sunnah or not to do this, what do you think they will answer?

[AbuIbraheem.]

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Did the Prophet (saw) ever do Congregational Dua, raising his hands after Salah, if so can I see the evidence that he did?

I dont know

Why do most Hanafi masajid do it after EVERY salah, if you ask the members of the congregation if it is Sunnah or not to do this, what do you think they will answer?

a lot will say that if you dont do dua then your wahabi lol

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

why do some khateebs always say that. did the Prophet say that before every khutbah or speech?

[AbuIbraheem.]

why do some khateebs always say that. did the Prophet say that before every khutbah or speech?

Because it is the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw)...

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

for that but I meant specifically the part about bidah. did the Prophet say that in the beginning of every khutbah?
if he did then why dont all khateebs say it? if he didnt then why do some people say it in every khutbah?

[Asad-ibn-Khalid]

As'alaam o alaikum,

There are many Sahih hadith informing that the prophet raised his hands to make dua on various occasions especially invocation for rain -

"Narrated Anas bin Malik: Once in the lifetime of the Prophet (p.b.u.h) the people were afflicted with drought (famine). While the Prophet was delivering the Khutba on a Friday, a Bedouin stood up and said, "O, Allah's Apostle! Our possessions are being destroyed and the children are hungry; Please invoke Allah (for rain)". So the Prophet raised his hands. At that time there was not a trace of cloud in the sky. By Him in Whose Hands my soul is as soon as he lowered his hands, clouds gathered like mountains, and before he got down from the pulpit, I saw the rain falling on the beard of the Prophet. It rained that day, the next day, the third day, the fourth day till the next Friday. The same Bedouin or another man stood up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! The houses have collapsed, our possessions and livestock have been drowned; Please invoke Allah (to protect us)". So the Prophet raised both his hands and said, "O Allah! Round about us and not on us". So, in whatever direction he pointed with his hands, the clouds dispersed and cleared away, and Medina's (sky) became clear as a hole in between the clouds. The valley of Qanat remained flooded, for one month, none came from outside but talked about the abundant rain" (Bukhari Book 13, Hadith 55)

Another hadith infact goes as following:

"Narrated Anas bin Malik The Prophet never raised his hands for any invocation except for that of Istisqa' and he used to raise them so much that the whiteness of his armpits became visible" (Bukhari Book 17, Hadith 141)

This second hadith however has been commented upon by scholars that the reason Anas Bin Malik (may Allah be please with him) most likely never saw the prophet raise his hands for anything other than this, but because of other Sahih narrations (in Bukhari & Muslim) it is proved he did so on other occasions.

In Salah then, I havent come across a narration which tells of the prophet doing this or any of the companions to have done this. (Please do guide me If you know of any hadith as it would be good to know).

Some mosques/Imams do it all the time and hence do make it seem fardh (walla u alam) whether they actually believe it is. And a lot like mentioned above, do brand you as a wahabi If you don't do it (Iv experienced it). But this has become unknowledgable and ignorant persons' tool now.

The only reported hadith I ever came across on this topic is as follows:

"It is narrated that Abdullah Ibn Zubair (radhiallahu anhu) saw a man raising his hands and making dua before completing his salah. When the person had completed his salaah, Hazrat Abdullah Ibn Zubair (radhiallahu anhu) went up to him and said: "Verily, Rasulullah (Sall Allahu alaihi wa Aalihi wa Sallim) used to only raise his hands and make dua after completing his salaah" (Majmauz Zawaaid, vol. 1, pg. 169).

The book mentioned here - Majmauz Zawaaid - I have not been able to identify or find who has written it etc.

Hope that helps and Allah knows best.

[thetruth]

jazak'allah to all for taking part in this discussion,

I think maybe I was not clear with my question?

I have seen many a times, that muslims who follow the sufi / barelwi understandings, do a congregational dua lead by the imam, immedetey after the fard salah. the same type of muslims, will do a congregational dua at a wedding, funeral, when they attend a grieved persons house, at a grave yard after jummah, after eid salah, - those who do not take part in congregational dua are instally labeled, a wahabi in the most derogarty way possible.

AND those muslims who do not take part in the congregational dua, make dua them self, seprately and in private for the same reasons.

Now, my question is, why do the sufi / barelwi type muslims do congregational dua after every fardh salah, jummah, eid, after janazah salah, at a burial, at a wedding, etc etc. Is it because it is a sunnah ? or is it for another reason?

I hope my question makes sense, and I hope this thread is not hijacked. Pls can we stick to the topic.

[AbuIbraheem.]

for that but I meant specifically the part about bidah. did the Prophet say that in the beginning of every khutbah?
if he did then why dont all khateebs say it? if he didn't then why do some people say it in every khutbah?

The point is that it is a proven Sunnah, it is the Hadith of the Prophet (saw) so he (saw) did do it regularly (this Hadith is narrated by many chains in many books).

The topic is specifically about doing Du'a in congregation directly after the Salah, not about raising the hands or anything else.

As I understand the Prophet (saw) never did it but nor did he forbid it.

If the Imams did it once in a while it would not be an issue but the fact is they do it after every Salah - and the followers now believe it is a Sunnah and some even think it is a part of the Salah (i.e. they do not see the Salah to be completed without it).

This is a big problem whether you call it bid'ah or anything else as we shouldn't add anything to the Ibadah that isn't from the Sunnah.

[Asad-ibn-Khalid]

As'alaam o alaikum again,

The congregational Dua done by some as you mention, isn't really a huge factor and difference amongst sects. What makes it big is the fact as you mention, that the people who do it always, regard those who don't as wahabi (which from their point is someone who disregards the sunnah & is ignorant of the sunnah).

But If you ask them for proof of what Sunnah they follow they carn't give anything to indicate or suggest that it is fardh (as there isn't any proof). On the contrary, others DO make Dua via raising hands many times, even after fardh Salat but they don't deem it fardh or anything. Hence sometimes they do it, sometimes not (like the hadiths indicate that the prophet did it sometimes).

Lastly, you can try your question on someone who is amongst the Barelwi/Sufi sect that you mention, maybe you get a response that I usually do.

From my understanding so far, Barelwism is a huge science. More complex than the Quran & Hadith. Off topic but an example of the Barelwi aqeedah (directly according to the book of the person who this sect started from - Ahmed Raza) is the following. It says in his Fatawa book, Malfoozat Ahmed Raza : -

"Our peer (holy men) can be present in every place in 10,000 places in 10,000 cities at one time" and he gives an example, "it was possible for Sayyidee Fathe Muhammad Quddus to be present in 10 different gatherings at once." Then Ahmad Radha gives an evidence for this which was, "Look at Krishan Kehnayyah, he was a disbeliever and he would also be present in a number of places at once." (Fatwa 152).

Please also refer to this thread where I have posted some information on the confusion of the Barelwi sect .... See page 2 of the sect. As one brother, who seems to follow the Barelwi scholars, helps to make me understand some absurd points!

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=232498

And Allahs knows best.

But my advice is read for yourself and gain the knowledge as well as making Dua to Allah almighty to guide you to the truth by recognising it and keep you away from Baatil.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

The point is that it is a proven Sunnah, it is the Hadith of the Prophet (saw) so he (saw) did do it regularly (this Hadith is narrated by many chains in many books).

cant the same be said for the dua. as making dua is also a sunnah, the only disagreement is if people start believing its neccassary after salat.
did the Prophet talk about bidah in every khutbah al-hajjah, I dont think he did (correct me if Im wrong). so Salafi khateebs have their thing about mentioning bidah in every khutbah al-hajjah and Hanafi imams have their thing about doing dua all the time. I dont see it as an issue, as long as they dont believe its neccasary

The point is that it is a proven Sunnah, it is the Hadith of the Prophet (saw) so he (saw) did do it regularly (this Hadith is narrated by many chains in many books).

The topic is specifically about doing Du'a in congregation directly after the Salah, not about raising the hands or anything else.

As I understand the Prophet (saw) never did it but nor did he forbid it.

If the Imams did it once in a while it would not be an issue but the fact is they do it after every Salah - and the followers now believe it is a Sunnah and some even think it is a part of the Salah (i.e. they do not see the Salah to be completed without it).

This is a big problem whether you call it bid'ah or anything else as we shouldn't add anything to the Ibadah that isn't from the Sunnah.

[Asad-ibn-Khalid]

@ Uthman_Ibn_Afan

As'alaam o alaikum brother,

Your right, so long as both things aren't made to seem or said as obligotary/Sunnah then its fine. The problem arises as mentioned by brother who started the thread, when people calling others names like Wahabi for not raising hands and making Dua after every fardh Salat although they carnt provide evidence of the prophet even doing it on ONE occasion?!

Now I might be wrong here as im not 100% sure, but as far as I remember reading into the topic, even the original Hanafi viewpoint is that it isn't fardh/sunnah to make Dua after every fardh Salat in congragation and should be done individually . . . I think one of the places I read this was on the fatawa part of the South Africa Islamic college website. (carnt remember the exact name for it) but they defintely follow the hanafi school of thought.

And Allah knows best

[Peacenik]

I can't believe people are making such a big deal out this.

[AbuIbraheem.]

cant the same be said for the dua. as making dua is also a sunnah, the only disagreement is if people start believing its neccassary after salat.
did the Prophet talk about bidah in every khutbah al-hajjah, I dont think he did (correct me if Im wrong). so Salafi khateebs have their thing about mentioning bidah in every khutbah al-hajjah and Hanafi imams have their thing about doing dua all the time. I dont see it as an issue, as long as they dont believe its neccasary

Okay - find me ONE instance (Authentic Hadith) where it was narrated that the Prophet (saw) finished his Fardh Salah and made Du'a in congregation in the same manner that is done now.

You are comparing an established Sunnah to something that is not Established in the Sunnah.

For example when it comes to reading some Nafl Salah, like Tahiyyatul Wudu or another Nafl prayer and you do it ALL the time, does it become a Bid'ah?

No because it is established in the Sunnah - raising the hands and making Du'a in congregation after the Fardh Salah is not.

Why don't the Imams encourage people to make du'a between the Adhan and the Iqamah ?

It reported that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said: “Du`a made between Azan and Iqamah is not rejected.” The Companions said: “What shall we say, O Messenger of Allah?” “Seek Allah’s grace in this world and in the afterlife”, replied the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.” (Reported by Abu-Dawud and At-Tirmizi)

Or in Prostration?

Abu Hurairah, may Allah be pleased with him, quotes the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, as saying: “The nearest a Muslim is to his Lord is while he is in prostration. So, make Du`a in it.” (Reported by Muslim, Abu Dawud and An-Nasa’i)

Both of these are established Sunnah, if we love the Prophet (saw) then we would follow his way rather than do things he didn't do.

Today you see people leaving the Du'a in prostration and between the Adhan and Iqamah and just making it with the Imam after Salah.

[Fais]

No because it is established in the Sunnah - raising the hands and making Du'a in congregation after the Fardh Salah is not.

But you can still make Dua even if it isnt.

And you can do it everytime too, what matters is that you dont regard it as Fard or even Sunnah when it isnt.

[AbuIbraheem.]

But you can still make Dua even if it isnt.

And you can do it everytime too, what matters is that you don't regard it as Fard or even Sunnah when it isnt.

In Quduri we learned that it was Makruh Tahrimi (I think - maybe even haram) for the Imam to read the same Surah's in the same Salah . (e.g always read Al-Kafiroon & Al Ikhlas in Maghrib Salah).

The commentary said it was because the people following that were uneducated in the deen might think that this is a Sunnah or even compulsory to do.

Why wouldn't you apply this same principle to du'a?

[Fais]

In Quduri we learned that it was Makruh Tahrimi (I think - maybe even haram) for the Imam to read the same Surah's in the same Salah . (e.g always read Al-Kafiroon & Al Ikhlas in Maghrib Salah).

The commentary said it was because the people following that were uneducated in the deen might think that this is a Sunnah or even compulsory to do.

Why wouldn't you apply this same principle to du'a?

Im Shafi.

And you could apply that to prayer. But that restriction is for the uneducated only .. Like i said in my previous post there is a problem if you start regarding it as Fard and Sunnah when it isnt.

So can we agree that for the educated it is ok?

[AbuIbraheem.]

Im Shafi.

And you could apply that to prayer. But that restriction is for the uneducated only .. Like i said in my previous post there is a problem if you start regarding it as Fard and Sunnah when it isnt.

So can we agree that for the educated it is ok?

I'm not going to give a Fatwa as I am not qualified, I know it was not forbidden by the Prophet (saw) so there is no prohibition in doing it.

My issue is with the Imams doing it in every Salah, the Imam should be educated, people look to his actions to see how to worship - he should be strict in keeping with the Sunnah.

A student of Mufti Taqi Usmani told me that Mufti Taqi was asked about this and said that the Imam should at least sometimes NOT do it so the people know it is not a Sunnah.

Personally, I want to stick to the Sunnah as close as possible so would rather do du'a in the times that we were advised are optimum by the Prophet (saw), I might make du'a by myself after praying but I never lead a du'a in congregation on the rare occasions that I lead one.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

Okay - find me ONE instance (Authentic Hadith) where it was narrated that the Prophet (saw) finished his Fardh Salah and made Du'a in congregation in the same manner that is done now.

You are comparing an established Sunnah to something that is not Established in the Sunnah.

akhi, I dont know about any daleels. Im just asking some questions, not debating.

so mentioning bidah in khutbah al-hajjah is established from authenic hadith. I must have got wrong information then, what someone told me was that the Prophet said it but not as the beginning of a khutbah. if you have time can you please show me the hadith.

[Uthman Ibn Afan]

@ Uthman_Ibn_Afan

As'alaam o alaikum brother,

Your right, so long as both things aren't made to seem or said as obligotary/Sunnah then its fine. The problem arises as mentioned by brother who started the thread, when people calling others names like Wahabi for not raising hands and making Dua after every fardh Salat although they carnt provide evidence of the prophet even doing it on ONE occasion?!

Now I might be wrong here as im not 100% sure, but as far as I remember reading into the topic, even the original Hanafi viewpoint is that it isn't fardh/sunnah to make Dua after every fardh Salat in congragation and should be done individually . . . I think one of the places I read this was on the fatawa part of the South Africa Islamic college website. (carnt remember the exact name for it) but they defintely follow the hanafi school of thought.

And Allah knows best

I think your referring to this site
http://www.al-inaam.com/fataawa/dua_hands.htm