Which is the Most Powerful Muslim Nation?

[Revolution]

Salaams

not that it matters considering most of the 52 Muslim Nations dont rule by Islam but out of intrest which the most powerful Muslim Nation? In terms of Military, Intelligence, Economy, or Influence etc ?
----
Note:

None of the Muslim Nations can take on the mountain task of Uniting the Ummah on their own.

The best way to think of the Ummah is to forget the poison of Nationalism and think of the Ummah as whole Land-Mass geographically.

Example USA: When the 51 states of USA are united they rule the World but if USA was to become 51 different states with puppet monarchs and tyrant rulers their glory would quickly crumble.

----

[Evil American]

protip: the US only has 50 states

[Desardes]

A logical based answer would be Turkey by a mile, being a member of Nato, etc. But the rhetorical question in my mind would be on whether any nation at the present can be referred to as 'islamic'.

[JiHaD_JoE]

well i guess Pakistan then, since it does have nukes and all

[MalcomBanned4?]

Do you know which country has the highest share of exports as a percentage of its economy — and thus leads the Muslim world as a trading nation? A. Saudi Arabia
B. Egypt
C. Malaysia
D. Indonesia
The Muslim population accounts for 14% of the world total. Yet, annual exports of the 31 predominantly Muslim nations amount to a relatively meager $300 billion — or just 5.4% of the world total.
A. Saudi Arabia

Incorrect. Even though Saudi Arabia is home to 20% of the world's known oil reserves, the country produces little else. Its oil sales total about $73 billion.


That means that the value of Saudi Arabia's exports are equal to just 40% of the size of its economy — less than half the export-to-GDP ratio recorded by the leading trading nation of the Muslim world.




B. Egypt

Incorrect. Egypt's economy continues to perform poorly, with low trade levels being one of the problems. In fact, Egypt does not have much to trade aside from tourism services.


Significantly, over one-third of the Egyptian workforce works for the government! Economic stagnation is reflected by the fact that in the 1950s, Egypt and South Korea had matching per capita incomes. By 2002, Egypt had fallen behind — with per capita income equal to only one-fifth that of South Korea.




C. Malaysia

Correct. Malaysia has an export-to-GDP ratio of 105%. That is more than double the ratios of such oil-rich nations as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait. In fact, with $75 billion in exports, Malaysia accounts for 25% of the total exports of the Muslim world — with only 1% of the total Muslim population in the world.


Even more impressive are the country's main exports — consumer electronics and computers — which are expected to be the growth items of the 21st century.




D. Indonesia

Incorrect. Although Indonesia, with a population of 228 million Muslims, is the most populous country in the Muslim world, it does not lead the group in its export ratio. In fact, the country's total exports of around $65 billion make up only 10% of GDP — less than one-tenth the export-to-GDP ratio of nearby Malaysia.
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/St...x?StoryId=2445

[MalcomBanned4?]

______________has said Islamic countries will remain backward unless they concentrate more on scientific and technological development.

Muslim nations are internally involved in fratricidal conflicts and perceived by the outside world as terrorists with little attention being given on their uplift, he said.
___________said the time had come for Islamic nations to take part in collective self-criticism.

Once such an assessment is made, it would not be difficult to realise that the entire Islamic world was far behind the developed world, he argued.

'The most unhealthy'

The Muslim Ummah, or the Islamic world, he said was presently living in darkness.

"Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race," he told the delegates.

_______then made a comparison of the economic growth in Islamic countries with some developed countries.

While the collective Gross National Product of the all Muslim countries stands at $1,200bn, that of Germany alone is $2,500bn and that of Japan $5,500bn.

He said one of the main reasons for this disparity was that none of the Muslim countries had ever paid any attention to educational and scientific development.

He asked the countries participating in the conference to concentrate on scientific and technological development in order to compete with the developed world.

The real jihad

The xxxxxxxxx leader suggested the setting up of a multi-billion dollar fund for such a purpose.

Beside this, he said, there was a need for creating centres of excellence in the field of science and technology.

He also called for the creation of scholarships for young scientists to seek knowledge from universities in developed countries.

______________ described it as the real jihad, or holy war.

Unless this was done, the Islamic world and Muslims would always be perceived as backward, illiterate - those who only indulge in extremism and violence.
Link Decide for yourself if you agree with the above or not before looking at the sorce

[tompaine]

Saudia Arabia which used and uses its oil wealth to spread Wahhabism to the world. Its influence on all Muslims is to have dragged them into a War of competing views of progress, on the World is to provide the tinder for a World War, and on the West to increase the study of Islam.

Turkey is a secular nation, a member of NATO, and up until recently, a strong ally of the US--in short a Western state.

Pakistan will never have a chance to use more than one nuclear weapon, is more inclined to use surrogates, and is on its way to becoming a secular state.

The attack on the US of 9/11/01 (performed by 15 Saudis and 4 others) was the most profound military attack since Pearl Harbor and has produced evidence of how hollow Muslim states are, how quickly they can be defeated, and how a regime can be removed without killing a lot of the people.

Regretably, the people, whether Sunni or Shia, have proven that they are more interested in killing each other and in resisting anything that hinders that impulse.

The new paradigm is a world with much more respectful Muslim states who recognize they must be "nice." And the US and UK are now the second largest exporters of oil.

[mtsmallick]

Bismiallah Ir-rahman Ir-rahim

Assalam-o-Alakum

The Question should be Like that " Which is most Powerful State among Muslim Nations"?

My answer is simple that we cannot find every indicator of Being most powerful in any muslim nation. Infact all of the muslims nations are mess-up. But when we try hard to find anyone, then my answer should be PAKISTAN.

Reasons Better Millitary infrastructure, better intelligence, had all resources from rivers, mountains, agriculture, minerals, harbours etc. Most fortunate that it has small minority of non-muslims, and even had produced Noble prize winner scientist. Pakistan have strong potential in exports as well human resource and better education system.

The only problem is its dependence on Foreign loans which is due inability to get rid of RIBA from our economic system and in-consistancy in political system.

[Revolution]

I was including Israel.

Originally posted by Evil American
protip: the US only has 50 states

[Revolution]

I think for once i *fully* agree with you bro mtsmallick

Originally posted by mtsmallick
Bismiallah Ir-rahman Ir-rahim

Assalam-o-Alakum

The Question should be Like that " Which is most Powerful State among Muslim Nations"?

My answer is simple that we cannot find every indicator of Being most powerful in any muslim nation. Infact all of the muslims nations are mess-up. But when we try hard to find anyone, then my answer should be PAKISTAN.

Reasons Better Millitary infrastructure, better intelligence, had all resources from rivers, mountains, agriculture, minerals, harbours etc. Most fortunate that it has small minority of non-muslims, and even had produced Noble prize winner scientist. Pakistan have strong potential in exports as well human resource and better education system.

The only problem is its dependence on Foreign loans which is due inability to get rid of RIBA from our economic system and in-consistancy in political system.

[Revolution]

Now there is some wisdom in Musharaffs words (although Mtsmallick will disagree).

Lets face it: Muslims ruled the world for 1000 Years. During this time they produced the best scientists, generals, architects, they were the leaders of the Globe, their achievments unsurpassed - yes they had their ups and downs but they were a forward and progressive civilsation(s) -

The reasons for Muslim Dominance was because Muslims were the Most Technologically advanced, Best Educated and Wealthy from among all the Worlds Nations. Now we see we dont have enough wealth to feed our citizens that the whole GDP of our nations doesnt even match that of Germany!

Somewhere... we are going seriously wrong and it needs correcting.

--

Now the Non-Muslims will come in and tell us we are going wrong because we are not secular or we stick to religion - well i politely but firmly disagree with them because if religion was the force holding us back from progress, glory and power then we could never have succeeded in Ruling the Wolrd as the Sole-Superpower for 1000 years - thats a whole Milenium where no other Nation could even stand up to us (not even Czarist Russia or conservative China) - and during this period we ruled with Religion (Islam) - so we Must have been doing something right then that we are not doing now.

This is a very important topic for the Ummah -

Before we do anything else we need to Know whats holding us back.

[Consider]

.The reasons for Muslim Dominance was because Muslims were because they were the Most Technologically advanced, Best Educated and Wealthy from among all the Nations of the World.

I disagree totally

The reason for muslim domainance was due entirely to their adherence to the laws of Allaah

We do not defeat our enemy through our great numbers
and or sophisticated ammunitions, we defeat them through
our obedience to Allâh and our enemies’ disobedience to
Him.

But when we disobey Allâh, we become like them in sins
and they will then defeat us.

'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra)

“Verily, We will make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) in this worldly life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth.” (Ghâfir 40:51)

“Verily, Allâh will help those who help His cause. Truly, Allâh is All-Strong, All-Mighty. Those who if We give them power in the land, they enjoin the performance of prayer, pay Zakâh, enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil. And with Allâh rests the end of all matters.” (Al-Hajj 22:40-41)

& more

[Consider]

Just to stress that I dont say that weapons are useless, but they are useless without faith

Victory will come to the muslims, in ways we may not see, in ways that we may not understand

“And say: ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood is bound to vanish.” (Al-Isrâ 17:81)

[reachin'out]

Bis mi Allah, ir-rahman ir-raheem,
I agree with Consider. If we were to go by Secular measurements, then I would plumb for Malaysia over Pakistan, though they are fairly evenly balanced other due to Pakistans Military development. As for a Pious nation - I cannot see one. As soon as one appears, that will naturally be the most powerful because Allah would give it victory over those who would like to tear it down.

[Details]

i woulda said pakistan because of its nukes, but i think egypt is in fact stronger. sometimes tonnage of destructive power doesnt tell the whole story. stability has to carry some weight. and i think egypt will be around longer to prove that.

[Blaster]

RUSSIA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Revolution]

Ofcourse Faith, Morale, Cause etc are all important Factors but if a Nation is simply Pious and Righteous but has no means of Practical Defense then they will produce Shaheeds (Martyrs) not Conquerers.

In such scenario where the Nation is Pious but practically defenseless it is not doing in accordance with other commandments of the Quran which stress the Importance of Material Arms, Weapons and Materials. Such verses which Command the Believers to Spy and Watch their enemy closely and to Always keep their Weapons ever-ready for War and to Man outposts and watch over the borders of the Nation: These are all direct and clear Commands - which cannot be overlooked.

In Badr the Prophet (saw) used a Arrow (in his hand) to straighten the Ranks of the Mujahideen - The Muslims of the time used the most advanced weapons available to them (Iron Swords, Spears, Bows and Arrows, Siege Equipment like Ballistas and Mongonels and Trubucets etc) - in other words they didnt go in empty-handed against the kufr army (although that would be preferable to surrender!) nor did they rely on ancient weapons like bronze Swords or Stone Daggers: This is a GREAT LESSON for the Believers in that it shows the Importance of a) Using whatever Means in terms of Weapons and b) trying to aquire the most advanced weaponary available.

This point is further drilled home by the Verse(s) of the Quran which say 'And Prepare against them Weapons of POWER' - which again shows the importance of having Powerful and Advanced Weaponary.

Btw if there are in errors here please do point them because i dont speak from my own desires and i can get the Quranic evidence to illustrate my point.

wsalaams

Originally posted by Consider
I disagree totally

The reason for muslim domainance was due entirely to their adherence to the laws of Allaah

We do not defeat our enemy through our great numbers
and or sophisticated ammunitions, we defeat them through
our obedience to Allâh and our enemies’ disobedience to
Him.

But when we disobey Allâh, we become like them in sins
and they will then defeat us.

Finally after we have prepared ourselves fully for Jihad be aquiring the most powerful weapons available and using all means to do so we must seek the blessings of Allah if they (the weapons and material means) is to avail us for "Victory and Defeat Comes Only From Allah".



'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra)

“Verily, We will make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) in this worldly life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth.” (Ghâfir 40:51)

“Verily, Allâh will help those who help His cause. Truly, Allâh is All-Strong, All-Mighty. Those who if We give them power in the land, they enjoin the performance of prayer, pay Zakâh, enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil. And with Allâh rests the end of all matters.” (Al-Hajj 22:40-41)

& more

[Consider]

Heres a really nice article, have a read when you have time, its a bit long, but definately worth the read:

Elements of Victory
by Imaam al-Haramain Abdul-Baaree ibn ‘Awad Ath-Thubaytee


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rabî ‘ul-Awwal 12, 1423 (May 24, 2002)


All praise is due to Allâh, Lord of all the worlds. May peace and blessings of Allâh be upon the Messenger of Allâh, his household and companions.

Brethren in faith, there is no doubt in the fact that one of the greatest goals of the Muslims is to see their religion prevailing, the Book of their Lord dominating and the banner of Tawhîd (Islamic Monotheism) rising high, making them rejoice at the help of Allâh.

Allâh’s help for the believers is one of the realities of existence and an everlasting way of Allâh. It may be delayed for an honourable purpose, which is intended by Allâh where it initially appears that the Muslims are defeated. Truth may suffer some defeat at a war and falsehood may temporary prevail. But all are in the view of the Qur’an, forms of victory which its wisdom is unknown to men. The believers are not responsible for results, they are only required to follow the path of the Qur’an and its commandments. The victory thereafter, is of the concern to Allâh which He puts to wherever He wills.

He says,

“You killed them not but it was Allâh Who did kill them. And you (Muhammad) threw not when you threw but it was Allâh Who threw, that He might test the believers by a fair trial from Him. Verily, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.” (Al-Anfâl 8:17)


Victory may be delayed because the ummah is not yet strong enough or because the environment is not yet ready for such a victory. It may also be delayed so that the ummah may strengthen its relationship with Allâh. It may be delayed so that Muslims may make all their struggle and sacrifices for the sake of Allâh alone and for His religion. As for falsehood, no matter how it rises, it will eventually vanish and be defeated.

Allâh says,


“And say: ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Surely, falsehood is bound to vanish.” (Al-Isrâ 17:81)


However, the wisdom of Allâh necessitates the existence of falsehood as a kind of trial for the Muslims. For, if Allâh had so willed, there would not have been any disbelief or falsehood.

Allâh says,


“If it had been Allâh’s Will, He himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others.” (Muhammad 47:4)


The Muslim ummah does not know when and how will the victory of Allâh come. The hosts of Allâh by which He helps His friends are many. In the battle of Banu Nadîr, fear was a soldier of Allâh; in the battle of Badr, the angels, drowsiness, rain and pebbles all became among the soldiers of Allâh. Wind, cobweb and other things are also among the soldiers of Allâh.

Allâh says,


“And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this is nothing else than a reminder to mankind.” (Al-Muddaththir 74:31)



Ibrâhîm At-Taymî narrated on the authority of his father that he said, “We were with Hudhyfah when a man said: ‘Had I met the Messenger of Allâh, I would have fought along with him and be put to test by that.’ He said this as if he was demeaning the trials that the companions experienced and their jihad with the Prophet. Hudhayfah then told the man: ‘Would you do that? We were with the Messenger of Allâh on the night of the battle of Ahzâb (battle of the trench) when we were seized with a severe wind and cold. The Prophet said, ‘Who can go and seek for us the news of the enemy and have my companionship on the Day of Resurrection as a reward?’ All of us kept quite and nobody answered. He repeated the request and nobody answered. He then said, ‘Hudhayfah! Get up and get the news of the enemy for me.’ Then I had no choice since he had called me by name to stand up.” (Muslim)


The people were reluctant because of the severe cold, hunger and fear that they were suffering from. For the (almost) one month siege had weakened them, that in addition to the darkness of the night and the wind that was severely cold. Allâh refers to this critical situation when

He says,


“When they come upon you from above you and from below you, and your eyes grew wild and you were terribly frightened, and you were harbouring doubts about Allâh. Then the believers were tried and severely shaken.” (Al-Ahzâb 33:10-11)


In these tense situations, Allâh gave victory to His armies when they least expected it and He sent a wind that put the ranks of the disbelieving confederates in disarray.


“And Allâh suffices the believers in the fighting. And Allâh is Ever All-Strong, All-Mighty.” (Al-Ahzâb 33:25)


Some Muslims wrongly think that Allâh will help them as long as they remain as Muslims whatever their conditions may be,

but Allâh says,


“O you who believe! If you help in the cause of Allâh, He will help you and make your foothold firm.” (Muhammad 47:7)


He did not say:

As long as you are Muslims, I will help you and make your foothold firm, no matter what your conditions and deeds are..’



Muslims had suffered defeat in the battle of Uhud, even with the Messenger of Allâh in their midst. In the battle of Hunayn, most of the Muslims had felt defeated, though the Prophet was with them, because they were so deluded by their multitude that some of them said, ‘We shall never be defeated out of fewness.’ How can Allâh help a man who does not help His cause and merely claims to be a believer?!
‘Umar said,

“We do not defeat our enemy through our great numbers and or sophisticated ammunitions, we defeat them through our obedience to Allâh and our enemies’ disobedience to Him.


But when we disobey Allâh, we become like them in sins and they will then defeat us.”

Allâh has unchangeable ways by which He controls the universe and men. Of these are elements of victory and causes of defeat. And the underlying reason behind these ways is to expose what is in the people’s hearts through their deeds and not their words or mere wishes, so that real believers may be recognised and helped by Allâh.

Of these elements of victory is to have firm and strong belief in Islamic Monotheism; for sincere belief purifies the hearts; and this leads to reform of the conditions and Allâh will then make the Muslims victorious and give them authority because the elements of victory is inherent in the people’s hearts.

Allâh says,


“Verily, We will make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) in this worldly life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth.” (Ghâfir 40:51)


History also tells us of stories of nations who had believed and were minority, hungry and destitute. They were truthful with Allâh and they freed themselves from their own wishes. Allâh then made them victorious and gave them authority in the land.
Sincerity is another element of victory. The sincere one is supported by Allâh and sufficed by Him.

He says,


“Is Allâh not Sufficient for His slave?” (Az-Zumar 39:36)


Allâh’s support and help for His slave will be in accordance with his sincerity to Him. Yes, it will be in accordance with one’s preparedness for that support.

Allâh says,


“As for those who strive hard in Our cause, We will surely guide them to Our paths. And verily, Allâh is with the good doers.” (Al-‘Ankabût 29:69)


Another element of victory is to help the religion of Allâh and practise it in words, deeds and belief, by performing Salâh, giving Zakâh, enjoining all that is good and forbidding all that is evil.

Allâh says,


“Verily, Allâh will help those who help His cause. Truly, Allâh is All-Strong, All-Mighty. Those who if We give them power in the land, they enjoin the performance of prayer, pay Zakâh, enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil. And with Allâh rests the end of all matters.” (Al-Hajj 22:40-41)


Victory after patience is the lesson learnt from the admonition of the Messenger of Allâh to Abû Jandal,

“O Abû Jandal, be patient and hope for your reward from Allâh; for Allâh will give you and the oppressed ones who are with you a succour and provide for you a way out of your hardship.” (Ahmad)


In his admonition to his cousin, Abdullah bin ‘Abbas, the Prophet said,“Be you aware that victory comes with patience.” In the end of a Makkan sûrah, Allâh commands His Messenger to be patient,

saying,


“And follow the Revelation sent unto you and be patient till Allâh gives judgment. And He is the Best of judges.” (Yûnus 10:109)


Among the elements of victory also is to depend on the indefatigably Powerful Lord, to submit one’s affairs to Him and to put one’s trust in Him. It is then that one shall have no fear of the enemies of Allâh.

Indeed, victory, honour and glory come from Allâh alone. During the battle of Hunayn, the believers saw themselves as great in number and the greatness of their number made them forget the reality of power and victory. So, Allâh left them and their multitude, but their multitude availed them of nothing. It is in this regard that

Allâh says,


“Truly, Allâh has given you victory on many battlefields, and on the Day of Hunayn, when you rejoiced at your great number, but it availed you naught and the earth as vast as it is, was straitened for you, then you turned back in flight. Then Allâh did send down His tranquillity on His Messenger (Muhammad) and on the believers, and sent down forces (angels) which you saw not, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the recompense of disbelievers.” (At-Tawbah 9:25-26)]


Among the most important elements of victory is du‘â (supplications). When Prophet Nûh (Noah) finished from building the ark, he sought refuge with Allâh through supplications and did not rely on material means only. He invoked Allâh, for he knew that supplication is one of the greatest weapons of victory. The glorious Qur’ân recorded for us how the Prophet supplicated and how his supplication was immediately answered inn these noble verses,


“And Nûh said: ‘My Lord! Leave not one of the disbelievers on the earth! If You leave them, they will mislead Your slaves and they will beget not but wicked disbelievers. My Lord! Forgive me, my parents and him who enters my home as a believer, and all the believing men and women. And to ache wrong doers, grant You not increase but destruction.” (Nûh 71:26-28)


Taking good care of the weak and destitute is also an element of victory. The Messenger of Allâh said to Sa‘d bin Abî Waqqâs,

“You are being provided for and given victory only because of the weak ones among you.” (Al-Bukhârî)


In another hadeeth, the Messenger of Allâh said,

“Allâh only makes this ummah victorious because of the weak ones among them – through their supplications, prayers and sincerity.” (An-Nasâî).


Another element of victory is proper understanding of the realities of this world, its insignificance and temporal enjoyment; as well as understanding of the Hereafter and its everlasting bliss.

Standing firm in faith and upon the truth, doing a lot of dhikr, unity and cooperation are also important elements of victory.

Allâh says,


“O you who believe! When you meet an enemy force, take a firm stand against them and remember the Name of Allâh much, so that you may be successful.” (Al-Anfâl 8:45)


Provision of material and strength is also a crucial element of victory.

Allâh says,


“And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allâh and your enemy.” (Al-Anfâl 8:60)


Brethren in faith! In view of these unfavourable situations in which Muslims are living nowadays, there is no doubt in the fact that they are in dire need of ray of hope that can give them a glad tiding of a bright future. That is the way of Allâh. In the early days of Islâm when Muslims were very few and helpless and the Messenger was being persecuted by his own clansmen, Allâh revealed to him the story of Prophet Yûsuf in order to give him glad tidings of a brilliant future. Therefore, one of the greatest causes of victory is to raise in the Muslims the hope of a bright future, that Allâh has promised them victory and authority in the land. The Prophet used to give his companions the glad tiding of victory and authority while they were still under persecution. He would tell them, “The earth was contracted for me and I could see all its parts. And the authority of my nation shall reach all that was shown to me of the earth.” (Muslim) He gave his companions the glad tiding that the future belonged to this religion and that Islam shall enter all houses. He said,

“This religion shall reach its goal as long as the night and day remain. Allâh will not leave a tent-house or a mud-house except that He makes this religion enters it either by might of a mighty one or ignominy of a disgraced one. It is going to be a glory by which Allâh makes Islam powerful and by which He will disgrace and lower disbelief.” (Ahmad)


Allâh says,


“They intend to put out the Light of Allâh, But Allâh will bring His Light to perfection, even though the disbelievers hate it.” (As-Saff 61:8)


Brethren in faith! Though it is unknown to us when the victory will come, we, nevertheless, are sure that Islam is naturally meant to survive, lead and control. We should therefore not lose hope because of the temporary weakness from which we are suffering today. The Messenger of Allâh said,

“Islam prevails and is not prevailed upon.” (Ahmad)


He also said,


“Islam shall continue to rise and shirk and the polytheists shall continue to fall. By Him in Whose Hand is my soul, the night and day will not cease to exist until this religion prevails over all others.”


These are glad tidings that remove all despair, put all afflicted person on the right path and restore hope to all Muslims. The Prophet said,

“Let this ummah have the glad tiding of prosperity, glory, religiosity and authority in the land.” (Ahmad).





Taken from www.islaam.net

[axxl]

muslim countries are just as prosperous as they were when they were at their peak. from one viewpoint, one might say that islam will let you get so far, but that you wont progress much farther after that. muslim countries are much like they were when they were at their peak, it's just that they never went beyond that while the rest of the world did.

[Revolution]

A fair post bro (Consider) but now let me ask you this....

If two Opposing Armies are facing each other and both have no faith in Allah or the Last day, nor do they believe in the Prophets, Books, Angels etc and one army has superior weapons and higher morale while the other has less weapons/morale - then which out of the two will be Victorious?

In no way am i trying to deny or undermine the importance of Faith but unelss you believe that Allah (swt) will make Kafir Jets fall out of the sky, their Ships sink, Laser-Guided Missles crash in Israel etc (although this is not difficult for the All-Powerful (swt) - then the point remains that we need to Advanced Weapons, Superior Intelligence and unbreakable Faith.

[Revolution]

Actually i would disagree because Islamic Civilisation and the Ummah as a whole has declined severly since the Golden Age of Islamic Dominion -

As Malcom pointed out regarding Education, Health, Welfare, Leadership, Economy etc all these have seen a decline over the last few hundred years. This has nothing to do with there being a limit to Islam since Islam is very compatable and practical.

Originally posted by axxl
muslim countries are just as prosperous as they were when they were at their peak. from one viewpoint, one might say that islam will let you get so far, but that you wont progress much farther after that. muslim countries are much like they were when they were at their peak, it's just that they never went beyond that while the rest of the world did.

[UnenlightenedOne]

America.

[reachin'out]

Originally posted by kaphirgoyim
America.

America is Muslim? All the way from Tierra del Fuego (land of the fire) to Groen Lund (green land)?
I didn't know that.

[axxl]

i'm not so sure. i think people today in the muslim world are better off, physically, than they were during the golden age. longer life spans, cleaner water, fewer diseases, fewer wars (barely), many more children being produced. just because they are not on top doesn't mean that they aren't better off.

[Revolution]

Well not really because even during the Golden Days most Muslims did live till old age, clean water was not a privilage but a Standard, Diseases were Rare - didnt exactly have to suffer from Black Death etc, Wars were almost None within the Borders of the Dar Ul Islam - Jihad was only waged on the frontiers of the State, more children? probably not since back then the average guy had at least 2 wives or more, no a days most people settle for 1.

Point is back then they flourished - Malcom you talked about Wealth and although i agree that Muslim countries can produce alot more exports then they are doing it has to be remembered that Wealth is in the hands of the Corrupt. For example i wouldent be suprised if a quater or more of the Worlds richest men were Arabs/Muslims - the difference between now and back then was that Wealth is not being distributed correctly - so it more a issue of distribution then production. Still the latter is also important.

ws

Originally posted by axxl
i'm not so sure. i think people today in the muslim world are better off, physically, than they were during the golden age. longer life spans, cleaner water, fewer diseases, fewer wars (barely), many more children being produced. just because they are not on top doesn't mean that they aren't better off.

[Salahudin]

Originally posted by Revolution
A fair post bro (Consider) but now let me ask you this....

If two Opposing Armies are facing each other and both have no faith in Allah or the Last day, nor do they believe in the Prophets, Books, Angels etc and one army has superior weapons and higher morale while the other has less weapons/morale - then which out of the two will be Victorious?

In no way am i trying to deny or undermine the importance of Faith but unelss you believe that Allah (swt) will make Kafir Jets fall out of the sky, their Ships sink, Laser-Guided Missles crash in Israel etc (although this is not difficult for the All-Powerful (swt) - then the point remains that we need to Advanced Weapons, Superior Intelligence and unbreakable Faith.

Asalaamu Alaykum

Interesting point bro.

Indeed the All-Powerful(swt) is able to do whatever he wishs, but we must understand that His(swt) Power is connected to His(swt) Wisdom, one doesn't oporate without the other. Everything in this Universe has a law, and Allah(swt) doesn't break these laws for everyone.

This reminds me of the current situation we are in today, were we have made Al-Qadr an excuse for our laziness. Falling for any calamity without resistence, putting our trust in Allah(swt) and fighting back.

The early Muslims used this very same tool, by believing in Allah(swt)'s Qadr and puting their trust in him, and then became the greatest ummah, empire and civilization in the world.

There are things Allah(swt) wants us to do, in order to achieve success and victory and unless we do them we will not get what we seek. Instead of looking at al-qadr as an excuse for our failure, by not doing what we are commanded to do, we must look at it as a way to find patience at time of difficulties, by following the sharee'ah.

[MalcomBanned4?]

Wealth is in the hands of the Corrupt.

"Some". Bill Gates gives more to charity than any country (except US) I'm sure there's thousands of wealthy men in the Mid East who aren't corrupt, just have to give them more power to make changes.

The Golden Days

The "best" was brought to Baghdad, books, doctors, scientists ect, regardless of race or religion. The goal was knowledge by inclusion not exclusion. Who said it? Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf

[canute]

Maybe it will be Iraq is 20 years? Oil will only carry the nation so far - it has to used its revenues to diversify its economy and improve infrastructure... things were going well until the Iran-Iraq war and the general malaise thereafter... but it has the potential.

Meanwhile, I'll go with Turkey or Pakistan.

But what defines power? Sheer military power (and the ability to use it effectively, let's not forget - brawn AND brains)... or power and influence... Turkey probably has more influence, being a part of Europe (to some extent) and a member of NATO.

[Revolution]

Well Canute i guess Power cant be defined (or can it?) but the way i see it.... If a Nation is Powerful it has Great Economic strenth, it has Political (Influence) to extend its Economy (Commerce, Trade etc) and to extend its Message (Islam, Democracy, Communism etc) and finally it has Military strenth to defend itself (and all the mentioned) and to march forth if threatened (lol this criteria does seem to fit USA!).

There is no denying USA is a Great Nation (also a Great Satan but hey thats perspective )

From the Muslim Nations i would say the most powerful are...

1. Pakistan - Its got Nukes! Also Army is v.experianced and Special Forces have quite a record, good AirForce and improving Economy... but lacks a strong Navy. Major producer of Small-Arms & and World largest producer of Land-Mines - influecnes World Events (Fall of Soviet Union, Taliban rise and fall controlled from Islamabad). Strong ally China but most important of all it has the best Secret Service/intelligence in the Muslim/Arab world! (Rock on ISI! Makes Mossad look like Angels! )
+Strong Faith and Zeal - in order to stop Indian Tank Advance that would have taken Lahore by Storm Pakistani Civilian Volunteers would take a Grenade and lay-down in front of Indian Tanks (blowing themselves and the tanks).

2. Iran - very Advanced... makes its own Planes/Helicopters/Tanks/Missles and Submarines!! + good (stable) economy. Very strong Industrial Power. Its Army has good experiance, Air Force is OK but Navy is a major player! Also working on Space program - also working on developing Nukes for its survival! Believed to have stockpiles of Chemical/Biological weapons as deterrant. also the Armed Forces have Fanatical Zeal alhamdulilah - Al-Badr brigade and others are infamous for role they played in Iraq-Iran War. Where frontline soldiers would lay-down on minefields (so it explodes) in order to clear the way for their comrades! (and that was against a Muslim/secular enemy so u can imagine how they would treat kafirs in battle)

3. Turkey - Strong Economy, Army, Navy and Airforce - strategic location. Although a Muslim State alot of secular influence in government and army. Has a good intelligence service and some of the latest weapons.

4. Indonesia/Malaysia - Alot of raw Manpower, quite advanced, developing economies and v.strong Navy!

5. Saudi Arabia - Has most of the latest U.S. Hardware in terms of Military and Weapons, Close of ally of USA (dont know if thats a good thing or bad? ) Alot of Oil + wealth but selfish and corrupt rulers.

6. Egypt - Good counter-balance for Israel (at least in terms of Stats!) has had some sucess against Israel in War - good Military and also gets $$ from USA. Also although its rulers sold-out to Israel the people remain determined to 1 day wipeout the curse of Israel! willpower and faith... to the extent that when the order came that Egypt and Israel have made peace and Egypt lost the war one Egyptian (i saw videofootage) smacked a wall so hard his blood splattered across it and his hand was cut/sliced with Rage!

7. Syria - A tough people, if it was 1 vs 1 (Syrian vs Israeli) the Syrias would eat the Jews RAW ...but it doesnt work like that anymore and its time they realised that- average military over-all but loyal troops/army. Ruled by Ba'athists still -

8. Jordan - Small but quite influential, a important advocate of peace in the Middle East , again Jordans Military ensures it balances out with that of Israel - although the gap is still vast.

9. U.A.E - United Arab Emirates - Strong Economy! (for its size) military power = almost Zero but is seen a neutral country by all, Saudi and Pakistan would probably defend it and USA probably would too - think of it as Switzerland (talking of which UAE has alot of Islamic Banks)

10. Libya! Ruled by a nutter (like Saddam) who is one of these Stalin-wannabes although not really a mass-murderer (like Saddam) - he even has something called "The Green Book" which is his edited version of the Communist manifesto! (its compulsary reading for all students in Libya) ... most importantly Libya has alot of Raw Uraniam!

- Now i just mentioned 10 briefly of the top of my head... now just think if these 10 along with the other 40+ Muslim countries become 1 Super-State once again! With a strong Government they will be a World Power once again! They can not only compete with the West in all fields they will excell it! The Ummah has the Brains, Manpower, Resources now all it needs is the Method and the Willpower.

[Musa Al-Mahdi]

salam

Originally posted by Revolution
..., Diseases were Rare - didnt exactly have to suffer from Black Death etc,
ws

Making grandiose claims only serves to provide an excuse for non-muslims to claim we are living in a fantasy world. The ME suffered the plague at least as bad as Europe.

The Muslim historian, Ibn Khaldun, who lost his parents to the Black Death, wrote of its devastation:

Civilization both in the East and the West was visited by a destructive plague which devastated nations and caused populations to vanish. It swallowed up many of the good things of civilization and wiped them out. It overtook the dynasties at the time of their senility, when they had reached the limit of their duration. It lessened their power and curtailed their influence. It weakened their authority. Their situation approached the point of annihilation and dissolution. Civilization decreased with the decrease of mankind. Cities and buildings were laid waste, roads and way signs were obliterated, settlements and mansions became empty, dynasties and tribes grew weak.

Islamic sources record at least 5 instances of plague outbreak prior to the big 14th century problem. From 639 when 25,000 of Umar's army died to 1349 in Mecca!

Theologians also encountered problems when the plague hit the holy city of Mecca in 1349, likely the result of pilgrimage traffic during the Hajj. The Prophet had promised that no disease would ever come to either Mecca or Medina. Some Muslims explained the Plague's presence in Mecca as the result of unbelievers living there, while others rejoiced in the miracle that it never spread to Medina.

Please, please verify the facts. Not only in historical matters. Take an objective look at the Iranian military; what is purchased or has been cobbled together from old stuff and what is original.



Other than the above and some other picky details I agree that if the ummah came together with a common will and outlook for the future, it would be a power. The problem is people, I fear there will always be those in, or seeking, leadership that are out for personal wealth and power.

[abdulhakeem]

Originally posted by Consider
Just to stress that I dont say that weapons are useless, but they are useless without faith [/B]

Weapons have a confession???

[abdulhakeem]

Originally posted by Revolution
A fair post bro (Consider) but now let me ask you this....

If two Opposing Armies are facing each other and both have no faith in Allah or the Last day, nor do they believe in the Prophets, Books, Angels etc and one army has superior weapons and higher morale while the other has less weapons/morale - then which out of the two will be Victorious?

If Muslims fight Muslims - then Muslims will eventually loose - in all respects. Allahu a'lam.

[cruiser]

[QUOTE

10. Libya! Ruled by a nutter (like Saddam) who is one of these Stalin-wannabes although not really a mass-murderer (like Saddam) - he even has something called "The Green Book" which is his edited version of the Communist manifesto! (its compulsary reading for all students in Libya) ... most importantly Libya has alot of Raw Uraniam! [/B][/QUOTE] He sure brought the house down with his recent observations about AIDS.

[MalcomBanned4?]

9. U.A.E - United Arab Emirates - Strong Economy! (for its size) military power = almost Zero

Interesting that almost zero military power made the top 10 How powerful would America be if all 50 states did their own thing instead of working together? How powerful will any oil based economy be when oil is obsolete in 25- 50 years?

[Blaster]

Will natural gas be "obsolete" AZ U PUT IT in 25 to 50 years?

[Raian]

salam



Making grandiose claims only serves to provide an excuse for non-muslims to claim we are living in a fantasy world. The ME suffered the plague at least as bad as Europe.

The Muslim historian, Ibn Khaldun, who lost his parents to the Black Death, wrote of its devastation:

Civilization both in the East and the West was visited by a destructive plague which devastated nations and caused populations to vanish. It swallowed up many of the good things of civilization and wiped them out. It overtook the dynasties at the time of their senility, when they had reached the limit of their duration. It lessened their power and curtailed their influence. It weakened their authority. Their situation approached the point of annihilation and dissolution. Civilization decreased with the decrease of mankind. Cities and buildings were laid waste, roads and way signs were obliterated, settlements and mansions became empty, dynasties and tribes grew weak.

Islamic sources record at least 5 instances of plague outbreak prior to the big 14th century problem. From 639 when 25,000 of Umar's army died to 1349 in Mecca!

Theologians also encountered problems when the plague hit the holy city of Mecca in 1349, likely the result of pilgrimage traffic during the Hajj. The Prophet had promised that no disease would ever come to either Mecca or Medina. Some Muslims explained the Plague's presence in Mecca as the result of unbelievers living there, while others rejoiced in the miracle that it never spread to Medina.

Please, please verify the facts. Not only in historical matters. Take an objective look at the Iranian military; what is purchased or has been cobbled together from old stuff and what is original.



Other than the above and some other picky details I agree that if the ummah came together with a common will and outlook for the future, it would be a power. The problem is people, I fear there will always be those in, or seeking, leadership that are out for personal wealth and power.

No offense here as we are all trying to learn but you should also verify the facts:

The Hadith specifically states that no plague will ever enter the city of MEDINA only.
Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 30 :: Hadith 104

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "There are angels guarding the entrances (or roads) of Medina, neither plague nor Ad-Dajjal will be able to enter it."

Mecca is not mentioned - I bring this point up because everyone keeps quoting : Michael W. Dols, The Black Death in the Middle East, Princeton University Press, 1977, p. 67.) which is a Western historical account and modifies the hadith to include Mecca. The prophet only promises that dijall will not enter mecca - but not the plague -

Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 30 :: Hadith 105

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said, "There will be no town which Ad-Dajjal will not enter except Mecca and Medina, and there will be no entrance (road) (of both Mecca and Medina) but the angels will be standing in rows guarding it against him, and then Medina will shake with its inhabitants thrice (i.e. three earth-quakes will take place) and Allah will expel all the nonbelievers and the hypocrites from it."

There are those out there that are trying to discredit the word of the prophet in order to create doubt. They will misquote hadith and try to pass it off on their popular websites as fact (answering-islam.com specifically as well as others). Remember their objective is to plant the seed of doubt. It is a small task with big chain reaction like consequences. So let us truly try to understand the hadith.

[ruslan]

India is the most powerfull

[Perseveranze]

I disagree totally

The reason for muslim domainance was due entirely to their adherence to the laws of Allaah

We do not defeat our enemy through our great numbers
and or sophisticated ammunitions, we defeat them through
our obedience to Allâh and our enemies’ disobedience to
Him.

But when we disobey Allâh, we become like them in sins
and they will then defeat us.

'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra)

“Verily, We will make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh) in this worldly life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth.” (Ghâfir 40:51)

“Verily, Allâh will help those who help His cause. Truly, Allâh is All-Strong, All-Mighty. Those who if We give them power in the land, they enjoin the performance of prayer, pay Zakâh, enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil. And with Allâh rests the end of all matters.” (Al-Hajj 22:40-41)

& more

Agreed, we were bound to fall when people started to fight for land/power and give their allegience not to Allah/Islam but to "SULTANS"/Country.

[ImaTakfeeri]

Strength is not through numbers brothers...

[vicious L]

There are more Muslims who are being killed and oppressed now than before when Muslims were fighting jihad

When Muslims fight in jihad only few get killed but when Muslims abandon jihad millions get killed

So you can see jihad is a good thing,

Muslim nations won't unite as long as we have puppet apostate leaders ruling over them, Muslims need to establish the Islamic state and forget about these aposte governemens and it's apostate leaders they will always fight against us not with us , they are working for the Freemasons and dajjal System

For Muslims to be strong again, muslims need to go back to the Quran and sunnah and jihad