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  1. #1
    穆斯林-姐妹 PiElle2's Avatar
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    convert sister and secret marriage



    say if a muslim brother has expressed interest in a sister and has proposed marriage to her... but has not mentioned it officially to his parent/s or family. and the sister's all so happy that this brother is going to marry her.... then he 'disappeared'... ie. no mention of it, try to evade when asked about the marriage arrangement and dates... what can or should the sister do...?

    i am speaking in the case of convert sisters who do not require wali (as i have been told) and where some muslim men exercise 'secret marriage' and it's supposed to be islamically permitted... how is the sister going to prevent such things from happening again since the bro dun need a wali to propose marraige to her or feel secure in this type of marriages...? esp. when she has no protection nor support from her own family, because of their lack of islamic knowledge...

    please advice.

    "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." - Morpheus, The Matrix.

    "It would not be reasonable in me if I did not serve Him Who created me, and to Whom ye shall (all) be brought back." Surah 36:22. Ya Sin (Yusuf Ali Translation)

  2. #2
    Traveller carol_au's Avatar
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Sis for your information...


    Respected scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum! What should a woman who converted to Islam and has no Muslim relatives do with regards to having a wali when she marries? Jazakum Allah khayran!


    Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

    All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
    Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

    First of all, we would like to welcome you among your Muslim brothers and sisters. You are welcome to the fold of Islam where everyone enjoys the Divine light given to humanity. Welcome to the Path of Righteousness. Welcome to purity and chastity. Welcome to nobleness. Welcome to virtue and morality. May Allah guide you to the best of deeds and shower His Mercy on you both in this world and in the Hereafter.

    Islam stipulates that in order to conclude her marriage, the Muslim bride must have a guardian or wali, who is usually her father. Since the woman – despite her Islamically granted independence – was always subject to the desires of the ill-hearted and evil opportunists; Islam decreed certain legislations which would maintain her rights and deter those whom carry ill-aims and desires.

    Therefore, Islam gave great importance to the approval of the woman's guardian in a manner, which reflects the significance of the marriage contract. Islam’s insistence on the guardian's involvement in the selection process is to ensure that the woman exercises her choice correctly.

    But if the bride's father is a non-Muslim, while she is a Muslim, he cannot act as a guardian for her, for Muslims are not to take non-Muslims for patronage or make them their representatives especially in a serious matter like marriage in which the guardian should be aware of the Islamic standards in choosing a proper marriage candidate. Almighty Allah says: "Your Protector (or Lord and Master) can be only Allah; and His Messenger and those who believe…" (Al-Ma’idah: 55). Almighty Allah also says: "And those who disbelieve are protectors one of another…" (Al-Anfal: 73)

    These verses indicate that non-Muslims are not to act as guardians for Muslims. But this does not mean that the paternal rights of the non-Muslim fathers of Muslim women are disregarded; Muslim women in this case are to continue to owe their fathers all due respect. The point is that non-Muslim fathers cannot be guardians for their Muslim daughters, for by believing in Islam, the daughters' loyalty to Islam (the true religion) is to have priority over their loyalty to their non-Muslim fathers.

    Elaborating on this issue, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad `Ali Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, states:


    The only recommendation for any (converted) woman is to consult some reliable Muslim man or men in order to learn what is needed about the fiancée. The Imam who is documenting the marriage could be the replacement of what is needed in a wali or guardian.

    In general, the Qur'an, when addressing a female's marriage, refers to society. That means she is not supposed to make her decision for marriage unless that society or community would have no (valid) objection to her marriage. The Qur'an in addressing a male's marriage speaks to him as the direct contractor. When he speaks to a female, the Quran makes her an indirect contractor.
    Sheikh M. S. Al-Munajjid, a prominent Saudi Muslim lecturer and author, adds:


    When a woman converts to Islam, none of her non-Muslim family members can act as a guardian (wali) of her interests; no disbeliever can act in this capacity over a Muslim. If there is a Muslim with some authority in your area over the affairs of the Muslim community, then he can act in this capacity, based on the Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) hadith: "No marriage contract can be concluded without the presence of a wali. A Sultan (authority figure) can act as a wali for those without one." (Reported by Ibn Majah and Imam Ahmad)

    If there is no authoritative Muslim person, then one should refer to the community Muslim leader or any Muslim who is just, respected, and of high character, such as the director of the Islamic center or its imam, to conclude the marriage contract of this sister, with her consent.

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543328&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar


    and
    As-Salamu `alaykum. A Muslim brother and I wanted to get married in the future and we used to talk. However, we didn’t have the resources to marry at that time, but didn’t want to do what was prohibited in Islam and considered dating. So we decided to have nikah just for ourselves and for Allah, and it made us feel better. However, we haven’t told anyone, as it was just for ourselves as we cannot live together yet, and it was basically for us. What is your view on that?



    Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


    All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

    First of all, it should be clear that marriage in Islam is a solemn contract for which the Shari`ah lays down rules and arrangements to guarantee its stability.

    To be valid, a marriage has to meet certain requirements such as ishhar (announcement), the payment of the dower, the consent of both parties, the permission of the wali (woman’s guardian), and the presence of witnesses.

    Responding to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

    It is not clear from your question what you mean by “making a nikah just for both of you” and not for others. In Islam, nikah or marriage must conform to certain minimum standards and requirements to be valid and acceptable; without these, it is considered neither valid nor acceptable, for it is then hardly distinguishable from fornication or illicit relations.


    The minimum conditions for the validity of nikah are the following: The consent of the guardian of the woman, presence of witnesses, offering and acceptance, and finally mahr (dower). Once the above conditions have been fulfilled, the marriage will be deemed as valid; but if these conditions are not fulfilled, then it will be considered as being null and void.

    As far as the consent of guardian is concerned, it can only be dispensed with if the guardian is simply refusing to give consent for considerations other than Islamic, in which case the judge can authorize the marriage after having followed the due process. If, on the other hand, such is not the case and no attempt was made to ascertain the consent of the guardian, then such a marriage would be considered invalid and, therefore, unacceptable in Islam. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “There is no (valid) marriage without a guardian and two reliable witnesses.”

    By stipulating the above-mentioned conditions for the validity of marriage, Islam insists that a marriage should remain distinct from other loose and immoral lifestyles such as fornication and illicit affairs. Hence, the Prophet insisted on making marriages public.

    Based on what has been stated above, the concept of a marriage “just for both of you or for Allah” is not tolerated in Islam.

    Society has a share in marriage in the sense that people should know that both of you are married so that they do not suspect you of maintaining an illicit relationship. According to the teachings of Islam, we are under obligation to do whatever we can to safeguard our religion, honor, and dignity; and as such we should stay away not only from that which is considered as strictly haram or forbidden but also from all that is doubtful and dubious. The Prophet (peace and blessings be him) said, “Whosoever shuns what is doubtful he has protected his religion and honor; but whosoever commits what is doubtful, he may inadvertently fall into haram!”
    Excerpted, with slight modifications, from:www.muslims.ca

    Last edited by carol_au; 31-03-08 at 03:28 AM.
    .The Prophet sal Allahu alaiyhi wa sallam said, “I guarantee a house in Jannah for one who gives up arguing, even if he is in the right; and I guarantee a home in the middle of Jannah for one who abandons lying even for the sake of fun; and I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners.”
    http://jameelah61.wordpress.com/

  3. #3
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Here's my two cents from a male perspective.

    They guy dropped you like a rancid sack of potatoes. I'm sorry for it and astagfirallah these things happen. Love is hard thing. Don't complicate your life with these exceptions (secret marriages or complex engagements). Actions are pretty clear. He's left you because he doesn't want you.

    Move on. Recoup. Get some council from friends, family, masjid, etc. And get yourself into a simple situation where the guy is dying for you. Marry him and happily live on.

  4. #4
    Unexpected Transformation Metroid's Avatar
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    ....
    Last edited by Metroid; 11-04-08 at 11:22 AM.
    The number one reason you should adopt a black cat is because they are less likely to get adopted. I don't know the reason why

  5. #5
    Senior Member neelu's Avatar
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Every sister needs a wali to marry. A sister from a Muslim family normally has her father or other male mahram as her wali (guardian) because her family are Muslim whereas a convert sister can appoint a trustworthy practising Muslim such as an imam but in both cases sisters require a wali. A brother does not need a wali to marry and can go ahead with marrying someone without involving or inviting his family but this is not something approved of or encouraged. It is also a dangerous thing to do because eventually once people become aware of the marriage (especially family members), they can then make things very difficult for him and persuade him to break up the marriage to keep them happy (which would explain why he didn't want to inform them in the first place but it's better to face those pressures sooner rather than after marriage).

    I hate to say this but I agree with yousuf. I think the brother has 'cold feet' and is no longer interested in marrying the convert sister and that is why he's being evasive. She should focus on her own life regardless of whether he wishes to marry her or not so that she is well prepared for either outcome (marriage or a break up).

  6. #6
    LEARNING ABOUT SUNNIS
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by neelu View Post
    Every sister needs a wali to marry. A sister from a Muslim family normally has her father or other male mahram as her wali (guardian) because her family are Muslim whereas a convert sister can appoint a trustworthy practising Muslim such as an imam but in both cases sisters require a wali. A brother does not need a wali to marry and can go ahead with marrying someone without involving or inviting his family but this is not something approved of or encouraged. It is also a dangerous thing to do because eventually once people become aware of the marriage (especially family members), they can then make things very difficult for him and persuade him to break up the marriage to keep them happy (which would explain why he didn't want to inform them in the first place but it's better to face those pressures sooner rather than after marriage).

    I hate to say this but I agree with yousuf. I think the brother has 'cold feet' and is no longer interested in marrying the convert sister and that is why he's being evasive. She should focus on her own life regardless of whether he wishes to marry her or not so that she is well prepared for either outcome (marriage or a break up).
    i have never heard of secret marriege b4
    wats tht ol abt?

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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    After reading what I have, I know of a sister that married a man in an arab country, in a shariah court, with no wali, she was there on her own, and yet she was married to him under sharia laws,,,how can that be,,Please this is so important as she is a very close sister and I wish to advise her if there is any wrong in her marriage. May Allah guide us all and enrich our hearts

  8. #8
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    I think there's a difference of scholary opinion, when I had my Islamic marrigage to my husband after I reverted (we were already married and he was a non practicing muslim when we first got married) - the imam appointed a wali for me. However other scholars do say that you can marry without a wali.

    Regarding secret marriages though, I thought it was a requirement to have two witnesses? So I don't get how you can have a secret marriage I think a revert sister if she has no wali she should get an imam from her own community who knows her, and have witnesses who know her as well, so if the husband does a runner at least there will be acknowledgement in the community that the marriage was genuine and they can sort her out divorcing him inshaAllah.





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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessAmira View Post
    After reading what I have, I know of a sister that married a man in an arab country, in a shariah court, with no wali, she was there on her own, and yet she was married to him under sharia laws,,,how can that be,,Please this is so important as she is a very close sister and I wish to advise her if there is any wrong in her marriage. May Allah guide us all and enrich our hearts


    I'm waiting for someone with knowledge towards this issue, It's so important if anyone can give the right advice please do so. This marriage only took place 1 year ago.

  10. #10
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: convert sister and secret marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    I think there's a difference of scholary opinion, when I had my Islamic marrigage to my husband after I reverted (we were already married and he was a non practicing muslim when we first got married) - the imam appointed a wali for me. However other scholars do say that you can marry without a wali.

    Regarding secret marriages though, I thought it was a requirement to have two witnesses? So I don't get how you can have a secret marriage I think a revert sister if she has no wali she should get an imam from her own community who knows her, and have witnesses who know her as well, so if the husband does a runner at least there will be acknowledgement in the community that the marriage was genuine and they can sort her out divorcing him inshaAllah.


    there is no difference of opinion amongst scolars on this matter ukhti, because the peophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam clearly said "There is no marriage except with a wali."

    Narrated by Abu Dawood, 2085; al-Tirmidhi, 1101; Ibn Maajah, 1881, from the hadeeth of Abu Moosa al-Ash'ari; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.



    Quote Originally Posted by PrincessAmira View Post
    I'm waiting for someone with knowledge towards this issue, It's so important if anyone can give the right advice please do so. This marriage only took place 1 year ago.
    if she was married in a shariah court, then the qadhi would be acting as her walli and there must have been 2 witnesses present insha Allah in the court room , as a shariah court would know well the conditions of marriage, as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "Any woman who gets married without her wali, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid. If the marriage has been consummated, the mahr is hers because she has allowed the man to be intimate with her. If there is a dispute, then the ruler is the walli, of the one who has no wali."

    Narrated by Ahmad, 24417; Abu Dawood, 2083; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami', no. 2709.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 22-04-08 at 07:42 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]



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