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  1. #1

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    what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    i know alot of deobandi's brother's and alot of barelvi's brother's and talking to each, there is not much difference between them, both are following hanafi madhab, both are sufi, they are just fighting over the past and some thing's here and there they both dont agree on.


    1. Both accept the four Imams in fiqh - Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'ee, Imam Ahmad

    2. Both are hanafi in their fiqh

    3. Both accept the four chains of tasawwuf - Naqshabandiyyah, Qadiriyyah, Soharwardiyyah and Chishtiyya.

    so why all the fighting and pointing finger's at each other.
    Last edited by salahuldin786; 06-03-08 at 05:39 PM.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Asalaam

    The labels make every 1 fight.

    If you were a true muslim ... You would find ways, solutions to unite.

    You would bring back the loving days of bro and sis and put hate and pride aside !

    w.s
    Last edited by Believer1984; 06-03-08 at 05:51 PM.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    that's what im trying to do, im asking the so called deobandi's and so called barelvi's why all the hate. cant we put it aside for the greater good and unite like we used to be before all the difference's started coming in.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    im a deobandi..but im still a beginner and not to sure of the differerences myself

    so this thread shud hopefulyl be enlightening.!

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    from what ive been told, one of the main differences is "hazir/nazir" thing... and the status at which we hold the prophet pbuh..

    if sumone wud care to elaborate?
    Last edited by Mohammed_123; 06-03-08 at 05:56 PM.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Patiently waiting ...
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Narrated Ibn Abbas: Those who have made their Scripture into parts are the people of the Scripture who divided it into portions and believed in a part of it and disbelieved the other. Sahih Bukhari (6:60:228)

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    No Difference between

    Barelwis and Deobandis



    Q:


    What exactly is the difference between the school

    of thought that follows Ala Hadrath Ahmed Rida Khan RA

    and those that follow the school of thought of

    Rashid Ahmed Gangohi against whom i understand

    Ala Hadrath had said that there is inherent kufr

    in the nature of thought expressed but did not issue

    a fatwa of Kufr, as Maulana Rashid Gangohi had passed on.

    (may Allah Ta'laa forgive me if i have made a mistake )



    there is a lot of ikhtiflaaf in the Indian subcontinent

    on this issue and i do understand that it is extremely volatile

    - but, i would request you to kindly spare sometime and answer me





    A:





    Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim:



    There is no difference in the generalities of `Aqida and

    Fiqh between Barelwis and Deobandis. They are both Sunni

    Hanafis, Sufis, Ash`aris or Maturidis. One stands in need

    of the best each school has to offer, as indeed hold many

    of the living prestigious teachers known to both sides.



    Among the best commentaries on Sahih Muslim and the Sunan of

    al-Tirmidhi and Abu Dawud are works by the Deobandis. The

    lives of the Sahaba by al-Kandihlawi is a masterpiece. I`la'

    al-Sunan and Aathaar al-Sunan are very valuable. As for Imam

    Ahmad Rida Khan and his works, whoever does not recognize

    their worth as one of the treasures of this Umma is a blasted

    nincompoop who should wear a dunce cap until he learns.



    Both sides are strict Hanafis and mainstream Sufis. We do not

    endorse the mistakes that anyone might have made, such as

    uttering words rightly perceived to lack adab in matters

    of `Aqida or contesting the legality of celebrating Mawlid.



    Nor do we endorse Takfir. Demonization of the other, saying

    they are munafiq is unacceptable. We leave extremism to Najd

    and its minions. Come together. Sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-

    Maliki advised you to do so, Sayyid Yusuf al-Rifa`i advised

    you, Shaykh `Abd al-Hadi Kharsa advised you, Sayyid Ya`qubi,

    Dr. al-Nass, others... Do you think you stand for the honor of

    Allah and His Prophet more than such as these? Think again.



    When the situation is such that there is mutual avoidance at

    mosques, gatherings, etc. then it becomes wajib for every true

    and sincere Deobandi should seek out his counterparts among

    Barelwis and for every true and sincere Barelwi to seek out

    his counterparts among Deobandis, pray together, learn from

    one another, give salam, and increase love. Disunity is sin.

    Or are you afraid you will lose reputation or funding? Shame.



    Here is the resting-place of Shaykh `Abd al-Qadir Gilani and

    Imam Abu Hanifa bracing for another Mongoloid onslaught. Will

    you Sunnis still be debating and anathematizing one another

    because of who said what as the Hour rises? Stressing ikhtilaf

    and schism is from Shaytan. If this is what the general public

    chooses to follow, it is their loss even as they shout ALLAHU

    AKBAR and YA RASULALLAH from God's dawn to the wee hours. Salam.



    Hajj Gibril

    Shawwal 1423/December 2002

    GF Haddad

    2002-12-10

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    The Barelvis exaggerate in their praises for the Prophet (saaw).

    Some might even say they commit Shirk.


    The beloved Messenger (saaw) warned us about exaggeration in praising him (saaw), like the Christians have done to Hadrat Isa (as) - so much that they've taken him (as) to be a 'god' or the 'son of...' - Astaghfirullah.

    May ALLAH (SWT) Protect us all from all forms of Shirk - Ameen.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Brelvis believe Prophet s.a.w had Ilm Ghaib - knowledge of unseen, deobandis don't belive that.

    They believe prophet was made of noor - light - deobani's don't believe that.
    Last edited by Omar Mukhtar; 06-03-08 at 06:32 PM.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar Mukhtar View Post
    Brelvis believe Prophet s.a.w had Ilm Ghaib - knowledge of unseen, deobandis don't belive that.

    They brelivis prophet was made of noor - light - deobani's don't believe that.
    And the sad fact is that they (the Barelvis) can't see the illogical statements they adhere to.

    Didn't the Prophet (saaw) say he was human, just like the rest of us ?

    He (saaw) ate, drank and slept like the rest of us ?


    Why can't people see the reasoning in that ?

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacenik View Post
    The Barelvis exaggerate in their praises for the Prophet (saaw).

    Some might even say they commit Shirk.


    The beloved Messenger (saaw) warned us about exaggeration in praising him (saaw), like the Christians have done to Hadrat Isa (as) - so much that they've taken him (as) to be a 'god' or the 'son of...' - Astaghfirullah.

    May ALLAH (SWT) Protect us all from all forms of Shirk - Ameen.

    how do barelvi commit shirk care to explain in detail please?

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by salahuldin786 View Post
    how do barelvi commit shirk care to explain in detail please?
    Please re-read my post, carefully.


    JZK

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar Mukhtar View Post
    Brelvis believe Prophet s.a.w had Ilm Ghaib - knowledge of unseen, deobandis don't belive that.

    They believe prophet was made of noor - light - deobani's don't believe that.
    One morning the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was kept back from us, and he delayed the dawn prayer until we could almost see the sun, when he came out in a hurry and commenced the prayer. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) performed it quickly, and when he had closed with Salams, called out, “Stay as you are, in your rows.” He then turned to us and said, “I shall now tell you what kept me from you this morning. I rose last night, made ablution, prayed what had been destined for me to pray, but then became so drowsy in my prayer that lassitude overcame me. And lo, I was with my Lord, Blessed and Exalted, in a surpassingly beautiful form,[23] and He said, ‘O Muhammad,’ and I said, ‘Ever at Your service.’ He said, ‘What are the Supreme Assembly [of archangels] debating about?’ and I said, ‘I do not know.’ He asked this thrice. Then I saw Him place His hand between my shoulders until I felt the coolness of His fingertips between my breasts, and lo, everything was revealed to me, and I knew. He said, ‘O Muhammad, what are the Supreme Assembly debating about?’ I said, ‘About expiations.’ He said, ‘What are they?’ and I said, ‘The walking of one’s feet to good deeds, sitting in mosques after prayers, and making a thorough ablution when most unpleasant.’ He said, ‘And then?’ I said, ‘Feeding others, speaking affably, and praying the night when people sleep.’ He said, ‘Ask, saying: O Allah, I ask You that I may do good works, shun bad, and love the unfortunate; I ask that You may forgive me and show me mercy. And when You try a people, take my soul unafflicted. I ask Your love, the love of whoever loves You, and the love of works that bring one closer to Your love.’”

    The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) said. “It was the truth. Study and learn it” (Tirmidhi (c00), 5.368–69: 3235).[24]

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    QUESTIONS ON THE PROPHET'S AND THE AWLIYA'S KNOWLEDGE OF THE GHAYB (UNSEEN)
    http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/ghayb.htm

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by salahuldin786 View Post
    i know alot of deobandi's brother's and alot of barelvi's brother's and talking to each, there is not much difference between them, both are following hanafi madhab, both are sufi, they are just fighting over the past and some thing's here and there they both dont agree on.


    1. Both accept the four Imams in fiqh - Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'ee, Imam Ahmad

    2. Both are hanafi in their fiqh

    3. Both accept the four chains of tasawwuf - Naqshabandiyyah, Qadiriyyah, Soharwardiyyah and Chishtiyya.

    so why all the fighting and pointing finger's at each other.
    Brelwi's are known for 'bidati' practices ie introducing innovations in islamic practice such as grave worship, saint worship, intercession by others, etc.
    Please Re-update your Signature

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by salahuldin786 View Post
    i know alot of deobandi's brother's and alot of barelvi's brother's and talking to each, there is not much difference between them, both are following hanafi madhab, both are sufi, they are just fighting over the past and some thing's here and there they both dont agree on.


    1. Both accept the four Imams in fiqh - Imam Abu Haneefah, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi'ee, Imam Ahmad

    2. Both are hanafi in their fiqh

    3. Both accept the four chains of tasawwuf - Naqshabandiyyah, Qadiriyyah, Soharwardiyyah and Chishtiyya.

    so why all the fighting and pointing finger's at each other.
    I would surmise that is a difference between certain belief and practices of the two groups.
    They are on issue that cannot be ignored. That is why hey fight.
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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacenik View Post
    The Barelvis exaggerate in their praises for the Prophet (saaw).

    Some might even say they commit Shirk.


    The beloved Messenger (saaw) warned us about exaggeration in praising him (saaw), like the Christians have done to Hadrat Isa (as) - so much that they've taken him (as) to be a 'god' or the 'son of...' - Astaghfirullah.

    May ALLAH (SWT) Protect us all from all forms of Shirk - Ameen.
    Ameen and good post

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    I watched a few mins of DM (brel digital) they were chanting Labbayak rasool or something. la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

    Where I live is sprawling with barelwis, they even hate the TJ's and I mean hate, they complain if we have any TJ literature out.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Umm 'Umarah View Post
    I watched a few mins of DM (brel digital) they were chanting Labbayak rasool or something. la hawla wa la quwwata illa billah.

    Where I live is sprawling with barelwis, they even hate the TJ's and I mean hate, they complain if we have any TJ literature out.
    a similar channel had a Mothers Day special, the other day

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by urban_rose View Post
    a similar channel had a Mothers Day special, the other day
    That's minor, they have horoscope shows.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Umm 'Umarah View Post
    That's minor, they have horoscope shows.
    and the channels are meant to be for dawah purposes too?

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    أبو حمزة Salman Al-Farsi's Avatar
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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    I always thought the difference between Brelawis and Deobandis is that, brelawis are all pandoos from Mirpur/Jhelum-sorrounding villages and deobandis are all stingy gujjis. That confused me a bit when I came accross Pakistani deobandis but what do you know they must be immigrants. I also thought most Pakistani deobandis become Tablighi and gujjis become brelawis because the food is better on this side. I also thought people become salafis once they return from Hajj.

    That was all before I was enlightened. alhamdulilah.
    "The objective behind Shari'ah is to liberate individuals from his desires in order to be a true Abd (slave) of Allah and that is the legitimate Maslaha... Violating the Shari'ah under the pretext of following Maqasid al-Shari'ah is like the one who cares about the spirit without the body and since the body without the spirit is useless therefore the spirit without the body is useless too." ~ Imam Shatibi - The greatest intellectual founder of Maqasid al-Shari'ah

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman Al-Farsi View Post
    I always thought the difference between Brelawis and Deobandis is that, brelawis are all pandoos from Mirpur/Jhelum-sorrounding villages and deobandis are all stingy gujjis. That confused me a bit when I came accross Pakistani deobandis but what do you know they must be immigrants. I also thought most Pakistani deobandis become Tablighi and gujjis become brelawis because the food is better on this side. I also thought people become salafis once they return from Hajj.

    That was all before I was enlightened. alhamdulilah.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by urban_rose View Post
    and the channels are meant to be for dawah purposes too?
    Subhan'Allah a bit mad isn't it. Peace TV is the safest channel, unity TV was good but I think that's gone.

    I used to think all the gujji's in Blackburn were pakistani's speaking some other kind of language, until I went to madrassah, half the madrassah girls were gujji, and I picked up some bits of the lingo, so now when I go to material shops, I use the odd word here and there.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman Al-Farsi View Post
    I always thought the difference between Brelawis and Deobandis is that, brelawis are all pandoos from Mirpur/Jhelum-sorrounding villages and deobandis are all stingy gujjis. That confused me a bit when I came accross Pakistani deobandis but what do you know they must be immigrants. I also thought most Pakistani deobandis become Tablighi and gujjis become brelawis because the food is better on this side. I also thought people become salafis once they return from Hajj.

    That was all before I was enlightened. alhamdulilah.
    not all gujis are tight and stingy...

    and also lots of barelwi people follow peers/pirs

    they bow to them, kiss there hands, kiss there feet, walk backward out of a room (so as not to turn there back on the peer(so i hrd)), kiss the hands and feet of the pirs son too... apparently

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman Al-Farsi View Post
    I always thought the difference between Brelawis and Deobandis is that, brelawis are all pandoos from Mirpur/Jhelum-sorrounding villages and deobandis are all stingy gujjis. That confused me a bit when I came accross Pakistani deobandis but what do you know they must be immigrants. I also thought most Pakistani deobandis become Tablighi and gujjis become brelawis because the food is better on this side. I also thought people become salafis once they return from Hajj.

    That was all before I was enlightened. alhamdulilah.
    and what do you think now bro?

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by usman3 View Post
    and what do you think now bro?
    JazakAllahu khayr for asking. I now think we all need to grow up
    "The objective behind Shari'ah is to liberate individuals from his desires in order to be a true Abd (slave) of Allah and that is the legitimate Maslaha... Violating the Shari'ah under the pretext of following Maqasid al-Shari'ah is like the one who cares about the spirit without the body and since the body without the spirit is useless therefore the spirit without the body is useless too." ~ Imam Shatibi - The greatest intellectual founder of Maqasid al-Shari'ah

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    i been to a mosque in Manchester and they had posters saying 'noor muhammad' and before the prayer they all gathered in a big circle and started nodding their head's all over the place and making wierd noises, at one time they was doing that and saying 'Allah' repeatedly like their in a trance. Kinda spooked me a bit as i'd never seen this sort of stuff before but i was suprised as it was mixed with the old and the young people. Anyone know what they are?
    Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers. - 3.151

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    There is a big Milad celeberation programme at Jamia Masjid Ghausia (lea bridge road) tonight with many Naat singers including Owais Qadri and chaired by Dr Aamir Liaqat AOL geo TV. There is also one at Minhaj al Quran on Romford road, guest include the neo-con Sufi Hisham Kabbani.
    "The objective behind Shari'ah is to liberate individuals from his desires in order to be a true Abd (slave) of Allah and that is the legitimate Maslaha... Violating the Shari'ah under the pretext of following Maqasid al-Shari'ah is like the one who cares about the spirit without the body and since the body without the spirit is useless therefore the spirit without the body is useless too." ~ Imam Shatibi - The greatest intellectual founder of Maqasid al-Shari'ah

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_londoner View Post
    Brelwi's are known for 'bidati' practices ie introducing innovations in islamic practice such as grave worship, saint worship, intercession by others, etc.
    As far I am aware Deobandis don't sanction grave worship unlike barelwis.
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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman Al-Farsi View Post
    There is a big Milad celeberation programme at Jamia Masjid Ghausia (lea bridge road) tonight with many Naat singers including Owais Qadri and chaired by Dr Aamir Liaqat AOL geo TV. There is also one at Minhaj al Quran on Romford road, guest include the neo-con Sufi Hisham Kabbani.
    tonight's one is at town hall isn't it, masjid ones on a different date? its just a naat mehfil isn't it? milads on the 29th or something
    Some claim that u are like any one of us, But who can claim, to have visited the Arsh? We say bashr, but respect is also due. For mankind are like rocks, but a pearl are u. U travelled the 7Heavens, and ur eyes did not lie. For Jibril could not pass, but u, O Madani, glided by.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman Al-Farsi View Post
    There is a big Milad celeberation programme at Jamia Masjid Ghausia (lea bridge road) tonight with many Naat singers including Owais Qadri and chaired by Dr Aamir Liaqat AOL geo TV. There is also one at Minhaj al Quran on Romford road, guest include the neo-con Sufi Hisham Kabbani.
    I'm familiar with this mosque (lea bridge rd) as i attend it now and then (i'm not brelvi), they have improved in some areas but are still backwards. They are fond of reciting the durood sharif loudly after salat and the iqamat before prayer is said by a person who gets up first before the imam, after he's finshed the congregation falls in line for salat.
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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by salahuldin786 View Post
    i know alot of deobandi's brother's and alot of barelvi's brother's and talking to each, there is not much difference between them, ...............................

    so why all the fighting and pointing finger's at each other.

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    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...am-barelvi.htm


    Deobandi Islam

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...m-deobandi.htm
    Worship only the CREATOR, HE is One and HE is the SUSTAINER of the Universe. Do not worship any of HIS creations nor through HIS creations

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    grave worshipping


    The Prophet (May Allah send abundant blessings upon him) said: I used to ban you from the visitation of graves, now, visit them. (Bukhari)


    Thirteen companions narrate this hadith. From amongst them are: Abu Sa�eed al-Khudri, Ibn Mas�ud and Abu Huraiyrah (May Allah be pleased with them all).


    Kattani mentioned that the hadith is Successive �mutawatir�. (Nazm al-Mutanathir p129)


    The visitation of graves is recommended for the purposes of remembering death and the hereafter. However, graves of the prophets and pious awliya are places of close means and a great intermediary to Allah (swt). This is not due to the graves themselves; instead it is due to the significance of the body that rests within.


    This does not allow people to practice acts contrary to the Islamic norms; which are common in the people of the sub-continent due to their ignorance and lack of knowledge. It is the duty of the scholars to inform the people of permissible and impermissible practices.


    The great Muhaddith, Abd al-Haq al-Dehlvi mentions the permissible form of intercession at the graves, who states:


    �1-Firstly, the person who makes dua, begs Allah swt and is in need of him alone. The one in need makes the person of the grave an intermediary to Allah swt due to his raised rank and significance. One says: �Oh Allah! For the sake of this person whom you have bestowed your mercy upon, ease my hardship because you alone are the most generous and all giving.


    2- Secondly, the person in hardship may also call the wali and ask him to intercede for him for the ease of difficulty.


    In both forms of tawassul (intercession), one�s hope is not in the pious, instead the centre of hope is Allah (swt) who will resolve the problems, help in need, and provide the asked-for. The true and absolute benefactor, and authority of change, is Allah swt who is the creator of all existence.�


    (As�at al-Lum�at sharh Mishkat 3:401, Fatwa Aziziyah 2:108)


    He continues writing:


    �If the visitor believes that the pious himself solves difficulty and independently eases hardship with all power to do so, without the reliability on Allah (swt) and dua, which is common in the ignorant as they commit such strongly condemned acts at the graves i.e. kissing the grave, prostrating to the grave, and praying salah towards it, this is unacceptable and the person is subject to punishment. One who knows the religion and has knowledge of the revealed law �alim� cannot practice such traditions.� (Ash�at al-Lim�at 3: 401)


    Prostrating to the graves


    It is not allowed to prostrate to the grave through veneration. Hence, it is strongly condemned by all scholars, as clearly stated by Imam Ahmed Rada (May Allah be pleased with him) in his book named: �al-Zubdah al-Zakiyyah fi Tahreem sujud al-Tahiyyah�.


    The question is whether one is allowed to pray salah in a mosque with a grave. Many Mosques in the Islamic world are with a grave of a Prophet or either a pious.


    The Prophet (May Allah send peace and blessings upon him) said: "May Allah curse the Jews and Christians; they have taken the tombs of their Prophets as places of worship." (Bukhari, Ahmed). Though, this hadith may imply the meaning that salah is not allowed in such mosques, Ibn Hajar Haythmi gives the pure meaning of this narration in his words:


    �Taking a grave as a place of worship means to pray on the grave or towards it. The impermissibility, however, applies exclusively to the grave of someone respected... under the two conditions:

    a) That the grave is of someone who is honoured and esteemed;

    b) And that the prayer is performed towards or on the grave with the intention of gaining the blessing of it, or out of reverence for it." (al-Zawajir, Reliance w21)

    This is the position of the Hanafi and Shafi`i schools.


    Kissing and touching the grave


    Though permissible according to some scholars, Imam Ahmed Rada disliked the practice in his Fatawa, in accordance with the soundest position.


    He states: �there are diverse opinions amongst the scholars regarding kissing graves. It is an act which lies between two things: something that allows the practice: love and something that disallows it: �adab� respect. Hence, the one who does it through overwhelming love is not criticized because this act is proven from the sahabah. Though, it is better for the general public to be precautious. Our scholars have explicitly stated that one should stand at least four feet away from the grave, so how would one kiss it!?� (Fatwa Ridhwiyah, 9:528)


    Allamah Samhudi (Ra) states:


    Imam Abdullah asked his father, Ahmed bin Hanbal, whether it was permissible to touch and kiss the pulpit and grave of the Prophet (abundant peace and blessings be upon him), he replied: there is no fear in this act �la ba�sa bihi�. (wafa al-wafa 4:1404)


    Imam Subki and Allamah Samhudi both narrate that Marwan (May Allah be pleased with them all) saw a person clinging to the Prophet�s grave (Peace and blessings be upon him). Marwan in anger gripped the throat of that person and shouted: Do you know what you are doing?


    The man turned to him and replied �I have come to the Prophet (May Allah bless him) and not to a stone�! (Wafa al-Wafa 4:1359) Allamah Samhudi says: �Ahmed narrated it and said it has a sound chain�.


    Sayyiduna Bilal rubbed his face on the Prophet�s grave, which was well known amongst the sahabah. (Hafiz Abd al-Ghani, Khatib bin Hamla, Wafa al-Wafa 4:1356, 1406)


    Ibn Umar used to place his right hand on the grave of the Prophet (May Allah send abundant peace and blessings upon him). (Wafa al-Wafa 4:1406)


    It is narrated that Ibn Abi Saiyf and Muhibb Tabari allowed kissing the graves of pious �saliheen�. Similarly, it is narrated from Isma�el Timi that whenever al-Minkdar (tabi�i) was afflicted with an illness in his mouth, he used to rub his cheek on the Prophet�s grave. Somebody objected on this practice to which he replied: �I seek cure from this�. (Wafa al-Wafa 4:1406)


    Qurtabi mentions the famous narration of the Bedouin who came to the grave of the Prophet (May Allah�s blessings and peace be upon him) and clung to it. This was narrated from Sayyiduna Ali (May Allah be pleased with him) in which he says that the Bedouin poured the dust of the grave over his head. This story, as well as Utbi�s narration, is found in the books of Tafseer of Surah al-Nisa v.64.


    Shaykh Abd al-Qadir Fakihi states: �In complete segregation where no laymen stick around, it is recommended to rub the cheek, face and beard on the Prophet�s grave. This act is permissible once done through love and good intention�. (Husn al-Tawassul fi ziyarati afdal al-Rusul. Fatwa Ridhwiyyah 9:531)


    Sheikh Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulsi (May Allah be pleased with him) has a whole chapter to the name �Kissing the graves of the pious� in his �Jam al-Asrar fi al-radd ala ta�ini al-sufiya al-akhyar� in which he allows the kissing of the graves with combining evidence.


    Allamah Abd al-Haq al-Dehlvi (Ra) states:


    �Bayhaqi has a narration which allows kissing parent�s grave, but the correct position is that it is not allowed.� (Madaraj al-Nubuwwah 2:424)


    The latter states in Ash�at al-luma�t (1:716):


    �One should not touch the grave and neither kiss it�


    These were some of the scholar�s statements regarding the topic.


    I personally find the position of Imam Ahmad Rada (May Allah be pleased with him) moderate and in between the two opinions.


    Sheikh Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulsi states: �where there is a questionable issue that can be marked permissible in any of the madhhabs, it is not a sin to commence that act and neither obligatory to obstruct from it. Though, Impermissible is that sinful act, upon which the scholars have agreed.�


    (al-Hadeeqah al-Ndiyyah , al-Nabulsi, 2:309)


    Tawaf of the grave


    Some scholars have allowed this act, but the correct opinion is that it is not allowed.


    It is mentioned in Majmah al-barakat:


    �It is permissible for one to make tawaf of the grave 3 times�.


    (Fatawa Ridhwiyyah 9:533)



    Mullah Ali Qari states:


    Tawaf is from the �khasa�is� of the ka�bah, thus, it is not allowed at the graves of the Prophets and pious. (Mansak Mutawassit p342)


    Imam Ahmad Rada (May Allah bestow abundant blessing on his grave) also strongly condemned the act.


    Qawali at graves


    Imam Ahmed Rada (May Allah be pleased with him) disallowed the custom of qawali at the graves of the awliya, especially when there is free-mixing between the two sexes. He strictly condemned the qawali which includes the usage of musical instruments i.e. flutes and drums. Furthermore, all, if not, most qawalis in the sub-continent consist of these instruments.


    Slaughtering animals at the grave


    Slaughtering animals to send the reward to the dead is permissible. The food is then easily provided to the poor who usually gather at the tomb. Moreover, the practice is not impermissible unless associated with something prohibited i.e. free mixing (though the slaughtered will be halal to consume) and slaughtering in the name other than Allah swt (the slaughtered will not be halal) etc.


    If one sees that unlawful acts are committed at the tombs of the awliyah, one should make all efforts by talking to someone responsible through hikmah. Moreover, if one fears that the talk will lead to fitna, one should stay silent. This is only when the visitor is from the general public. If the visitor is from the ulama, it is his duty to confront the responsible people so that the public are informed of the right and wrong practices.


    "Whoever of you sees something wrong let him change it with his hand. If unable to, then let him change it with his tongue. If still unable to, then with his heart. And that is the weakest degree of faith."


    And Allah alone provides guidance.


    Wassalam


    Munawwar Ateeq Rizvi

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by imported_londoner View Post
    Brelwi's are known for 'bidati' practices ie introducing innovations in islamic practice such as grave worship, saint worship, intercession by others, etc.
    see above for grave worshiping.


    see below for intercession
    Last edited by salahuldin786; 07-03-08 at 06:06 PM.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    intercession


    Walaikum assalam,

    The praised station (al-maqam al-mahmud) is the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace)�s intercession. The station of mediation (maqam al-wasila) is a rank in Paradise that no one but the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) shall reach.

    In Sahih al-Bukhari:

    Jabir ibn Abd Allah (Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace be upon him) said, �Whoever says the following after hearing the call to prayer deserves my intercession (shafa`a) on the Day of Judgment: �O Allah, Lord of this perfect call and ready prayer! Grant Muhammad the mediation (wasila)and honor, and resurrect him on the praised station that your have promised him.��



    اللهُمّ ربَّ هذهِ الدَّعوةِ التّامّةِ والصّلاةِ القائِمةِ آتِ مُحمَّداً الوَسِيلةَ والفَضِيلةَ وابْعَثْهُ مَقاماً مَحمُوداً الَّذِي وعَدْتَهُ
    Imam Badr al-Din al-`Ayni (Allah have mercy on him) explains this hadith in his commentary on Sahih al-Bukhari, `Umdat al-Qari:



    (Mediation � wasila) Its linguistic sense is the means of drawing closer to another, and a rank with a king� A hadith in Sahih Muslim explained this as being a rank in Paradise� �Then ask Allah to grant me the mediation (wasila), for it is a rank in Paradise that none but a single servant of Allah�s servants deserves, and I hope that it be me, so whoever asks Allah that he grant me the mediation shall have my intercession.� �

    (Praised station � maqaman mahmudan) Ibn al-Jawzi said that most scholars hold this to mean the [major] intercession� [Ayni, Umdat al-Qari, 5.123-124]

    This intercession is of various types, including the major intercession at the Gathering, where he (Allah bless him & give him peace, and grant us his intercession and concern) will intercede for all humanity and jinns to lessen the dreads of the Day of Resurrection.

    The Prophet�s Intercessions Are Many

    These major intercessions are 6:

    1. Lessening the dreads of the Day of Resurrection;

    2. Entering some people into Paradise without reckoning; these two are said to be particular to the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace);

    3. For some who deserved punishment in the Fire;

    4. Taking out some who actually entered the Fire;

    5. Raising the ranks of those in Paradise;

    6. Lessening the punishment of those eternally in the Fire, such as Abu Talib and others.

    [Khadimi, al-Bariqa al-Mahmudiyya fi Sharh al-Tariqa al-Muhammadiyya, 1.78, quoting Qastallani, Laqani, and Suyuti]



    Wassalam,
    Faraz Rabbani



    في صحيح البخاري: حدثنا علي بن عياش قال حدثنا شعيب بن أبي حمزة عن محمد بن المنكدر عن جابر بن عبد الله أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال من قال حين يسمع النداء اللهم رب هذه الدعوة التامة والصلاة القائمة آت محمدا الوسيلة والفضيلة وابعثه مقاما محمودا الذي وعدته حلت له شفاعتي يوم القيامة

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    on the Day of Qiyamah, a crown, which will light up the East to the West, will be placed on the head of Hufaaz parents.

    Intercession by a Shaheed (Martyr) will be 50 persons, Hajee 70 persons, and the Righteous Ulama - countless people so much so that those who had any contact with an Aalim of Deen will be privileged by his Shafa'at. Some will say that I gave him water for Wudhu, some will say that I did certain work for him, etc. These people will be judged accordingly and sent to Jannah (Paradise).

    The Judgement of the Ulema will be long over, but they will be held back and others will be going to Jannah. The Ulema will enquire as to why they are being held back from entering Jannah. Allah will reply: "On this Day, you are like the Angels to Me. Intercede, for by your intercession the Sunnis will be forgiven". It will be said to all the Righteous Sunni Ulama to intercede for all their students even though they may be as many as the stars in the sky.

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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?


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    Re: what's the difference between barelvi's and deobandi's?

    Quote Originally Posted by salahuldin786 View Post
    that's what im trying to do, im asking the so called deobandi's and so called barelvi's why all the hate. cant we put it aside for the greater good and unite like we used to be before all the difference's started coming in.
    NO HATE ..JUST slight differences

    a top brelvi near us died on the 27th roza in ramadhan

    its the end ..and the heart that counts..

    not the small details that are petty but are blown up to divide us

    we all get along and share 99.99999999999999999%..and more




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