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  1. #1
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    So what constitutes a mental illness within Islam?

    How do we know when someone is blameless due to mental issues, or when to punish them according to sharia?

    The thing I am thinking here is, that lets say you have a young girl, who has been molested or raped often by a family member as child (it does happen even within Islamic households), often this goes on to develop serious mental illnesses that are not always apparant, except in sexual behaviour of the girl, or boy as they grow up.

    Often the molestation/rape in itself, leads to sexually promiscuous behaviour, the girl loses all sense of pride, and sees herself as nothing more than a sexual object, feeling demeaned within herself, feeling that this is all she is good for.

    Sexual abuse occurs across all ethnic/racial, socioeconomic, and religious groups
    The development of sexualized behavior, also called sexually reactive behavior, is another common negative short-term effect of sexual abuse. Children who have been sexually abused engage in more sexualized behavior when compared to children who are not victims of sexual abuse, and when compared to clinical samples of children with other mental health issues. A recent report suggested that about a third of children who have been sexually abused subsequently manifest this symptom. Additionally, a third or more of child victims of sexual abuse report depression and anxiety. Other frequently occurring symptoms include promiscuity (38%), general behavior problems (30%), poor self-esteem (35%), and disruptive behavior disorders (23%).
    http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERI...xual_abuse.asp

    Now, lets be honest, sexually promiscuous behaviour within Islam is punishable by sharia, and many of those punished either by lashing or stoning (if the country does it), or honour killings etc, can themselves be victim of this kind of mental illness.

    So why is none of this taken into consideration?

  2. #2
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    What are the actual mental illnesses that Islam takes into consideration when judging wether someone is of unsound mind so not responsible for their actions?

    I have tried to search this information out but it is all very vague.

  3. #3
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    When a medical opinion is needed in other cases, an expert in that field is consulted.

    For example, if someone has a skin condition that means they should do tayammun rather than wudhu, they get the opinion of a dermatologist on whether doing wudu would make the skin condition worse. (some scholars may say two or three experts but its the same general idea) Also, there are many other incidents where you get the opinion of a doctor or medical specialist to confirm that a particular ruling applies. I would expect therefore that if it is the opinion of a psychiatrist (or x number of psychiatrists maybe) that someone committed a crime because of mental illness, then that would be what is neccessary. Its not just the above case, some acute mental illness leads people to commit assault or even murder. I'm not a scholar though, so I don't know if this is actually the case, just that I know of other cases where you need to seek a medical experts opinion.

    However I would say that it would be far better to have sufficiently good mental health and counselling services available to people to prevent someone suffering from a mental illness or who is unable to deal with horrible things that have happened to them, to get help before it gets to the stage where they commit crimes.





  4. #4
    Islamfactor Guy brjimc's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    I saw the title "mentally ill people are not judged in islam" and thought "Alhamdulillah, Im saved!"

    to no avail *sigh*


  5. #5
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by dhakiyya View Post
    When a medical opinion is needed in other cases, an expert in that field is consulted.

    For example, if someone has a skin condition that means they should do tayammun rather than wudhu, they get the opinion of a dermatologist on whether doing wudu would make the skin condition worse. (some scholars may say two or three experts but its the same general idea) Also, there are many other incidents where you get the opinion of a doctor or medical specialist to confirm that a particular ruling applies. I would expect therefore that if it is the opinion of a psychiatrist (or x number of psychiatrists maybe) that someone committed a crime because of mental illness, then that would be what is neccessary. Its not just the above case, some acute mental illness leads people to commit assault or even murder. I'm not a scholar though, so I don't know if this is actually the case, just that I know of other cases where you need to seek a medical experts opinion.

    However I would say that it would be far better to have sufficiently good mental health and counselling services available to people to prevent someone suffering from a mental illness or who is unable to deal with horrible things that have happened to them, to get help before it gets to the stage where they commit crimes.

    Oh yes, many mental illnesses also lead to acohol abuse, drug abuse, murder, suicide, pedophilia etc, so I agree with you.

    However we must also consder that mental illnesses and rehabilitation are relatively new constructs, prior to this one would not have known, nor accepted that raping a child would lead to them becoming loose themselves, nor young boys sodomised as children, would then be more likely to go on to do the same thing to others.

    Psychology, counselling and what not are new, rehabilitation or understanding these type of results were not considered at all before.

    I do agree that now that we have those things it's important that we make use of them, but how often to the children truthfully confess to the parents (if it isn't the parents) that someone (usually a family member) is abusing them?

    So when the problems begin, in the teenage years, often the cause is unknown.

  6. #6
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by brjimc View Post
    I saw the title "mentally ill people are not judged in islam" and thought "Alhamdulillah, Im saved!"

    to no avail *sigh*

    Lol

  7. #7
    Alpha Dude
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    In Islam, the foundation is yaqeen, having faith in Allah and realising that everything in this world is a test.

    Once one has that yaqeen, he will be able to overcome anything, whilst striving to remain a good muslim.

    I wouldn't say that the person in the example you gave would be considered a mental case, because it is up to the person to bring yaqeen into his/her life. Just because somebody has had a traumatic experience in life, it doesn't mean they are exempt from being accountable for their sins. These people can still make sense of things, they are capable of coming to an understanding of what religion they should be following. So, they can't really be exempt.

    Also, even if the type of person you mention ends up being sexually active; but later on in life, realises that she/he should have had more faith in Allah, thus sincerely repents, Allah will forgive.

    There is a fundamental difference between the Islamic outlook on life and the secular one. We believe that Allah will reward us in the afterlife and we are also told to believe that we should bare everything in this world with patience. Islam gives hope.

  8. #8
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Dude View Post
    In Islam, the foundation is yaqeen, having faith in Allah and realising that everything in this world is a test.

    Once one has that yaqeen, he will be able to overcome anything, whilst striving to remain a good muslim.

    I wouldn't say that the person in the example you gave would be considered a mental case, because it is up to the person to bring yaqeen into his/her life. Just because somebody has had a traumatic experience in life, it doesn't mean they are exempt from being accountable for their sins. These people can still make sense of things, they are capable of coming to an understanding of what religion they should be following. So, they can't really be exempt.

    Also, even if the type of person you mention ends up being sexually active; but later on in life, realises that she/he should have had more faith in Allah, thus sincerely repents, Allah will forgive.


    There is a fundamental difference between the Islamic outlook on life and the secular one. We believe that Allah will reward us in the afterlife and we are also told to believe that we should bare everything in this world with patience. Islam gives hope.
    Well no actually, once you bring sharia into the equation, the chance at repenting later on slims down rapidly.

    There is only so much whipping a person can take without dying, you should look it up.

    I am speaking more along the lines of those actions that will bring you punishment, maybe even death, within sharia, so repentance is not given a chance.

  9. #9
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Its actually quite difficult to get yourself convicted for zina according to sharia law - given that there has to be four eye witnesses to the act itself. Its very rare for people to do those sins in public rather than private. The vast majority of people committing those sins will do them and then (inshaAllah) repent for them in private. Unless they want to confess formally in an Islamic court and be punished as repentance.

    Those laws stop people from sinning publically, which stops those sins from ever becoming socially acceptable. Someone who is committing fornication due to whatever psychological issues lead them to commit it, will still be doing so in private.

    Someone who is psychotic (i.e. has lost touch with reality completely due to mental illness) may well commit such a sin publically because they know longer understand what they are doing, or the consequences of that action.

    Therefore it is considearbly more likely that the mental illness problem will affect those commiting crimes that are assaults (sexual or non sexual) on other people, as those crimes don't require a set number of witnesses, just sufficient evidence to prove that it happened and who did it.

    When it comes to tendancies like children raised in abusive households are more likely to behave like the abusive parents/guardians (this goes for physical abuse as well and all kinds of abuse) - they have not reached a point where they are no longer responsible for their actions, they know what they are doing and that it is wrong. Maybe paedophiles are more likely to have been sexually abused themselves (but actually this is not always the case) but they still know what they are doing is wrong. They have not lost touch with reality, they are not automatons simply running through a computer programme that they cannot change or stop. Therefore someone who commits paedophilia (for example) should be convicted regardless of his background or childhood experiences, unless he is shown to be unable to understand what he is doing or that what he is doing is wrong - which would apply to someone suffering from psychosis (at the time the crime was committed), or someone who is mentally handicapped and has insufficient intelligence to understand.

    Prisons are full of abused children. Its one of the sad realities of life. Such logic as "he can't help it cause his dad/someone else did xyz" can apply to the massive numbers of criminals - we can't let them all off.

    Hence decent intervention, preferably in childhood, to deal with the psychological consequences of abuse is absolutely necessary. In addition the conviction of child abusers, to prevent them spreading their poison to more children, regardless of their own past.

    In addition it is very necessary to point out that the majority of abused children don't go on to abuse children or commit other crimes themselves. However that does not mean they are free from psychological consequences - far from it. Much more common reactions to abuse in childhood include depression, tendancy towards addiction (of all kinds not just substance abuse), suicide, low self esteem, tendancy to become a victim (e.g. ending up in an abusive marriage) and so on. All of these things can be tackled by early intervention. There are many ways to allow children to report abuse and be helped, the NSPCC is the best agency for that in the UK imo. They are even currently part of a scheme to get adults to recognise the signs of being an abuser in other adults, rather than looking for signs in children which are a lot harder to spot and distinguish from other, less severe, causes. This way they hope that adults will be persuaded and if necessary forced to come forward for counselling before they become serial abusers, or even come forward because they are able to seek help before they actually abuse any chidren.
    Last edited by dhak1yya; 27-09-07 at 12:01 PM.





  10. #10
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    in almost every hadith about issues of adultery and stoning, when someone came and confessed their adultery to the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam or the companions they were always asked "are you insane" "are you mad" always. and if there was any doubt in that then such a punishment was not carried out, there is proof of this in many hadith alhamdulillah.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


  11. #11
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by `asiya View Post
    in almost every hadith about issues of adultery and stoning, when someone came and confessed their adultery to the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam or the companions they were always asked "are you insane" "are you mad" always. and if there was any doubt in that then such a punishment was not carried out, there is proof of this in many hadith alhamdulillah.

    Thank you asiya, I have read a couple of hadiths like that, but they centred around one situation, if you have any other hadiths the same but in other situations could you direct me to them, as this answer so far is very intriguing to me.

    Thanks dhakiyya, however currently in the muslim world I wouldn't be able to say that it even takes 4 witnesses to zina (also the 4 witnesses covers adultary not zina I thought?) to get someone punished.

    I on my own level agree with your points, but they are modern points.

  12. #12
    Matty Stacks FTW. Cartman's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Thank you asiya, I have read a couple of hadiths like that, but they centred around one situation, if you have any other hadiths the same but in other situations could you direct me to them, as this answer so far is very intriguing to me.

    Thanks dhakiyya, however currently in the muslim world I wouldn't be able to say that it even takes 4 witnesses to zina (also the 4 witnesses covers adultary not zina I thought?) to get someone punished.

    I on my own level agree with your points, but they are modern points.
    no, asiya is right. There was a couple of cases where some people came to the prophet admitting grotesque sins, and he seriously though they were crazy, so he told them to go away, and it was only after three or 4 times of confessing when they were punished
    May Allah Bless Us All.

  13. #13
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman View Post
    no, asiya is right. There was a couple of cases where some people came to the prophet admitting grotesque sins, and he seriously though they were crazy, so he told them to go away, and it was only after three or 4 times of confessing when they were punished
    Yes, I did say I had read a couple of those hadiths, but they related to one single incident, I did in fact ask if there were others that related to different scenarios but no one added any so I guess, it was just that one time?

  14. #14
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Yes, I did say I had read a couple of those hadiths, but they related to one single incident, I did in fact ask if there were others that related to different scenarios but no one added any so I guess, it was just that one time?
    there are as far as im aware several narrations, two about people who came to confess what they had done, a man and a woman, and one about about a woman in the time of the khalifah same thing she was freed from punishment, because there was a doubt that she may be suffering temporary insanity wa Allahu alam.

    anyway many narrations about one incident, or several, either way, the precidence is set by the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam , that the one who there is any doubt about their sanity will not be punished. This is because the prophet salAllahuAlleyi wa salam said that the pen has been lifted for 3, the sleeping till they wake, the insane till they regain their senses and the one who has not reached the age of puberty, so the pen has been lifted means no sins are recorded for them under those circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Thank you asiya, I have read a couple of hadiths like that, but they centred around one situation, if you have any other hadiths the same but in other situations could you direct me to them, as this answer so far is very intriguing to me.

    Thanks dhakiyya, however currently in the muslim world I wouldn't be able to say that it even takes 4 witnesses to zina (also the 4 witnesses covers adultary not zina I thought?) to get someone punished.

    I on my own level agree with your points, but they are modern points.
    4 witnesses applies to zinnah and adultery, or if the person makes a confession ( not forced obviously as torture and anything like that is forbidden in Islam) i wouldnt take what an so called muslim country does, as the islamic example. the one who commits zinnah ( is unmarried) will be lashed and can also be exiled from the land. The one who is married and commits adultery will be stoned to death. regarding the insane person in Islam he/she cannot be punished at all, due to their mental state.

    The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Pen has been lifted from three: from the sleeping person until he wakes up, from the minor until he grows up, and from the insane person until he comes to his senses.” Narrated by Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi (1423), al-Nasaa’i (3432) and Ibn Maajah (2041).


    Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.



    Book 017, Number 4205:

    Sulaiman b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma`iz b. Malik came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said to him: Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you, go back, ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, then came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Woe be upon you, go back and ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, when he came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said as he had said before. When it was the fourth time, Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) said: From what am I to purify you? He said: From adultery, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) asked if he had been mad. He was informed that he was not mad. He said: Has he drunk wine? A person stood up and smelt his breath but noticed no smell of wine. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Have you committed adultery? He said: Yes. He made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death. The people had been (divided) into two groups about him (Ma'iz). One of them said: He has been undone for his sins had encompassed him, whereas another said: There is no repentance more excellent than the repentance of Ma'iz, for he came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and placing his hand in his (in the Holy Prophet's) hand said: Kill me with stones. (This controversy about Ma'iz) remained for two or three days. Then came Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to them (his Companions) as they were sitting. He greeted them with salutation and then sat down and said: Ask forgiveness for Ma'iz b. Malik. They said: May Allah forgive Ma'iz b. Malik. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He (Ma'iz) has made such a repentance that if that were to be divided among a people, it would have been enough for all of them. He (the narrator) said: Then a woman of Ghamid, a branch of Azd, came to him and said: Messenger of of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you; go back and beg forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance. She said: I find that you intend to send me back as you sent back Ma'iz. b. Malik. He (the Holy, Prophet) said: What has happened to you? She said that she had become pregnant as a result of fornication. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Is it you (who has done that)? She said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) said to her: (You will not be punished) until you deliver what is there in your womb. One of the Ansar became responsible for her until she was delivered (of the child). He (that Ansari) came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said the woman of Ghamid has given birth to a child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: In that case we shall not stone her and so leave her infant with none to suckle him. One of the Ansar got up and said: Allah's Apostle, let the responsibility of his suckling be upon me. She was then stoned to death.

    Book 017, Number 4206:

    'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judgment about him and he wis stoned.

    He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.


    Volume 7, Book 63, Number 230:
    Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:

    Ibn 'Abbas; said, "Once Lian was mentioned before the Prophet whereupon 'Asim bin Adi said something and went away. Then a man from his tribe came to him, complaining that he had found a man width his wife. 'Asim said, 'I have not been put to task except for my statement (about Lian).' 'Asim took the man to the Prophet and the man told him of the state in which he had found his wife. The man was pale, thin, and of lank hair, while the other man whom he claimed he had seen with his wife, was brown, fat and had much flesh on his calves. The Prophet invoked, saying, 'O Allah! Reveal the truth.' So that lady delivered a child resembling the man whom her husband had mentioned he had found her with. The Prophet then made them carry out Lian." Then a man from that gathering asked Ibn 'Abbas, "Was she the same lady regarding which the Prophet had said, 'If I were to stone to death someone without witness, I would have stoned this lady'?" Ibn 'Abbas said, "No, that was another lady who, though being a Muslim, used to arouse suspicion by her outright misbehavior. " ( in this hadith u will see that the punishment was not carried out because they took the oath before Allah as mentioned in the Quran in the verse of lian )
    Last edited by *asiya*; 07-10-07 at 10:36 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


  15. #15
    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by `asiya View Post
    there are as far as im aware several narrations, two about people who came to confess what they had done, a man and a woman, and one about about a woman in the time of the khalifah same thing she was freed because there was a doubt that she may be suffering temporary insanity, i dont have books here to hand to look them up but insha Allah someone else may know and post the references Allahualam.

    anyway many narrations about one incident, or several, either way, the precidence is set by the prophet salAllahu alleyhi wa salam , that the one who there is any doubt about their sanity will not be punished. This is because the prophet salAllahuAlleyi wa salam said that the pen has been lifted for 3, the sleeping till they wake, the insane till they regain their senses and the one who has not reached the age of puberty, so the pen has been lifted means no sins are recorded for them under those circumstances.

    Do you think severe depression would consitute the kind of mental illness they are talking about?

    Lets say you know someone, who has become so depressed they have stopped praying, washing, they forget to eat sometimes, they are really in such a bad place in their head, do you think that falls into this category?

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    Matty Stacks FTW. Cartman's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Yes, I did say I had read a couple of those hadiths, but they related to one single incident, I did in fact ask if there were others that related to different scenarios but no one added any so I guess, it was just that one time?
    Islamic Law rules that the insane are excused they will have no reckoning and all their sins will be forgiven. "Allah burdens not an individual more than his capability"
    Quran 2.286

    and there are countless hadith that state allah withholds the sins of the insane, and the baby and the youngster. And he does not punish someone who disbelieves only on 4 occasions if he is crazy, if he was deaf at the time of the message, if he was old and senile at the time of the emssage, or if he never got the message at all

    We never punish until we have sent a messenger. (Al-Isra 15)
    May Allah Bless Us All.

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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Do you think severe depression would consitute the kind of mental illness they are talking about?

    Lets say you know someone, who has become so depressed they have stopped praying, washing, they forget to eat sometimes, they are really in such a bad place in their head, do you think that falls into this category?
    only god knows, but if they do have a chemical inbalance that they cant control , I think they fall under insane.
    May Allah Bless Us All.

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    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Do you think severe depression would consitute the kind of mental illness they are talking about?

    Lets say you know someone, who has become so depressed they have stopped praying, washing, they forget to eat sometimes, they are really in such a bad place in their head, do you think that falls into this category?
    Allahu alam ukhti i have asked this question to a scolar as the person was suffering from what was diagnosed, as post traumtic stress disorder after many years of abuse and rape and such horrendous trials, which culminated in the above symptoms that u have described, which were more manifest at certain times than at others, and he replied that they should do as much as they can to adhere to Islamic obligations and insha Allah they would not be held accountable if they truely werent able to cope some days.

    but i really couldnt say if it could be used as an excuse for a person to engage in zinnah, as a completely insane person may do, and Allah knows best i really dont know about that. Allahu alam.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    The spice must flow Arrakis's Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman View Post
    only god knows, but if they do have a chemical inbalance that they cant control , I think they fall under insane.
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by `asiya View Post
    Allahu alam ukhti i have asked this question to a scolar as the person was suffering from post traumtic stress disorder after many years of abuse and rape and such horrendous trials, which culminated in the above symptoms which were more manifest at certain times than at others, and he replied that they should do as much as they can to adhere to Islamic obligations and insha Allah they would not be held accountable if they truely werent able to cope some days.
    but i really couldnt say if it could be used as an excuse for a person to engage in zinnah, as a completely insane person may do, and Allah knows best i really dont know about that. Allahu alam.
    Yes, stuff like that, see that is what I was trying to get at in my OP, sometimes the things that are done to people cause mental damage, I wanted to know what was the standing on that.

    Thanks for that answer.

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    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: mentally ill people are not judged in islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrakis View Post
    Thanks.



    Yes, stuff like that, see that is what I was trying to get at in my OP, sometimes the things that are done to people cause mental damage, I wanted to know what was the standing on that.

    Thanks for that answer.
    its true some have physical scars some have mental scars and that is part of their test ukhti, it can change the dynamics of the body and there is research now that confims that even things like manic depression can manifest after years of abuse, and high stress situations, due to constant what they call "fight or flight" adrenaline running through the body. can affect heart rate qand chemical and hormonal balances, and as muslims we deal with these trials as any other, relying on Allah and striving constantly to do what is right.

    Its a real struggle and everyone has their tests in one way or another no body gets through this life without trials. but holding fast to the rope of Allah is the only way through, if medicines help then masha Allah they can be taken too, but for sure every muslim through every trial has to be trusting in Allah, for Allah can cure anything and remove any affliction from the body or the mind, alhamdulillah.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 07-10-07 at 11:10 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]



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