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    A SISTER - Female Muslim Um Abdullah's Avatar
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    About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Assalamu ala man itaba'ah al-Huda

    because many Muslims deny abrogation I thought it is important to post something about it.
    I hope you find it beneficial>

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH


    The revelations from Allah as found in the Qur'an touch on a variety of subjects, among them beliefs, history, tales of the prophets, day of judgement, Paradise and Hell, and many others. Particularly important are the ahkam (legal rulings), because they prescribe the manner of legal relationships between people, as Allah wishes them to be observed.
    While the basic message of Islam remains always the same, the legal rulings have varied throughout the ages, and many prophets before Muhammad brought particular codes of law (shari'a) for their respective communities.
    The Arabic words 'nasikh' and 'mansukh' are both derived from the same root word 'nasakha' which carries meanings such as 'to abolish, to replace, to withdraw, to abrogate'.

    The word nasikh (an active participle) means 'the abrogating', while mansukh (passive) means 'the abrogated'. In technical language these terms refer to certain parts of the Qur'anic revelation, which have been 'abrogated' by others.
    Naturally the abrogated passage is the one called 'mansukh' while the abrogating one is called 'nasikh'.
    The Qur'an on Naskh The principle of naskh (abrogation) is referred to in the Qur'an itself and is not a later historical development:
    '
    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106). [Some however say that this refers to the revelations before the Qur’an, which have now been substituted by the Qur’an itself. See Mawdudi. The Meaning of the Qur’an, Lahore,
    1967, Vol. I, p.102. note 109.]

    How it came about When the message of Islam was presented to the Arabs as something new, and different from their way of life, it was introduced in stages. The Qur'an brought important changes gradually, to allow the people to adjust to the new prescriptions.
    Example: There are three verses in the Qur'an concerning the drinking of wine. Wine drinking was very widespread in pre-Islamic times and, although a social evil, highly esteemed. The three verses which finally led to the prohibition of intoxicating substances were revealed in stages (4: 43, 2: 219; 5: 93-4).
    Why it is important Knowledge of al-nasikh wa al-mansukh is important because it concerns the correct and exact application of the laws of Allah. It is specifically concerned with legal revelations:

     It is one of the important pre-conditions for explanation (tafsir) of the Qur'an.
     It is one of the important pre-conditions for understanding and application of the Islamic law (hukm,
    shari'a).
     It sheds light on the historical development of the Islamic legal code.
     It helps to understand the immediate meaning of the ayat concerned.
    Tafsir (explanation of the Qur'an) or legal ruling is not acceptable from a person who does not have such knowledge.



    How do we know it?
    As in the field of asbab al-nuzul, the information about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh cannot be accepted upon mere personal opinion, guesswork or hearsay, but must be based on reliable reports, according to the ulum al-hadith, and should go back to the Prophet and his Companions.

    The report must also clearly state which part of the revelation is nasikh and which is mansukh.
    Some scholars say that there are three ways of knowing about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh:

     Report from the Prophet or Companions.
     Ijma' (consensus of the umma upon what is nasikh and what mansukh).
     Knowledge about which part of the Qur'an preceded another part in the history of revelation. [Qattan,
    op.cit., p. 199]
    Example:
    Narrated Mujahid (regarding the verse):
    Those of you who die and leave wives behind, they (their wives) shall await (as regards their
    marriage) for four months and ten days (2: 234).
    The widow, according to this verse, was to spend this period of waiting with her husband's family, so Allah revealed: Those of you who die and leave wives (i.e. widows) should bequeath for their wives, a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they leave (their residence) there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is honourable (i.e. Lawful marriage) (2: 240).
    So Allah entitled the widow to be bequeathed extra maintenance for seven months and 20 nights and that is the completion of one year. If she wished, she could stay (in her husband's home) according to the will, and she could leave it if she wished, as Allah says: Without turning them out, but if they leave (the residence) there is no blame on you.
    So the idea (i.e. four months and ten days) is obligatory for her. 'Ata' said: Ibn 'Abbas said: This verse i.e. the statement of Allah ... without turning one out ... cancelled the obligation of staying for the waiting period in her late husband's house, and she can complete this period wherever she likes.
    'Ata' said: If she wished, she could complete her 'idda by staying in her late husband's residence according to the will or leave it according to Allah's statement:

    'There is no blame on you for what they do with themselves.'
    'Ata' added: Later the regulations of inheritance came and abrogated the order of the dwelling of the widow (in her dead husband's house) so she could complete the 'idda wherever she likes. And it was no longer necessary to provide her with a residence.
    Ibn Abbas said: This verse abrogated her (i.e. the widow's) dwelling in her dead husband's house and she could complete the 'idda (i.e. four months and ten days) (wherever she liked, as Allah's statement says: ...'without turning them out ...'
    [Bukhari, VI, No. 54.]
    This report explains clearly which part of the revelation is nasikh and which is mansukh. Mujahid was one of the wellknown tab'iun and Ibn 'Abbas was a Companion of the Prophet.

    What is Abrogated?
    According to some scholars the Qur'an abrogates only the Qur'an. They base their view on suras 2: 106 and 16: 101.
    According to them the Qur'an does not abrogate the sunna nor does the sunna abrogate the Qur'an. This is, in particular, the view held by Shafi'i. [For details see Kitab al-risala, Cairo, n.d., pp.30-73; English translation by M. Khadduri, op.cit.,
    pp. 12345; for a brief summary of Ash-Shafi'i's views see also Seeman, K., Ash-Shafi'is Risala, Lahore, 1961, pp.53-85.]
    Others are of the opinion that the Qur'an may abrogate the Qur'an as well as the sunna. They base their view on Sura 53: 34.

    There is also the view that there are four classes of naskh:
     Qur'an abrogates Qur'an.
     Qur'an abrogates sunna.
     Sunna abrogates Qur'an.
     Sunna abrogates sunna.
    [Qattan, op.cit, pp. 201-2.]


    In this discussion, we shall only consider the abrogation in the Qur'an, and leave aside the abrogation in the sunna.

    Three Kinds of Naskh in the Qur'an
    [Ibn Salama, al-nasikh wa al-mansukh, Cairo, 1966, p.5.]
    The scholars have divided abrogation into three kinds:

     Abrogation of the recited (verse) together with the legal ruling.
     Abrogation of the legal ruling without the recited (verse).
     Abrogation of the recited (verse) without the legal ruling.


    For abrogation of the recited (verse) together with its legal ruling:
    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear
    sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and
    Allah's apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and
    recited by the Muslims). [34 Muslim, II, No. 3421.]

    For abrogation of a legal ruling without the recited (verse):
    'O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou has paid their dowers; and
    those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to
    thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts and daughters of thy maternal uncles
    and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates
    her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her; - this only for thee and not for the
    believers (at large);We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the
    captives whom their right hands possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for
    thee and God is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (33: 50).
    'It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other)
    wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as
    handmaidens); and God doth watch over all things' (33: 52).
    This is one of the few very clear examples of naskh, though only concerning the Prophet specifically, since for Muslims in general the number of wives has been restricted to four. (Sura 4:3).

    For abrogation of the recited (verse) without the legal ruling:
    'Abdullah bin 'Abbas reported that 'Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's messenger (may peace
    be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and he sent
    down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We
    recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him)
    awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and after him, we
    also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget
    it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by
    abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and
    women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy or a confession. [Muslim,
    III, No. 4194; Bukhari, VIII, No. 816.]
    The punishment of stoning for adultery by married people has been retained in the sunna, while it is not included in the
    Qur'an .

    The Abrogated Verses
    There are, according to Ibn Salama, [Op cit., see pp.6-8 for the names of these suras.] a well-known author on the
    subject:
     43 suras with neither nasikh or mansukh.
     6 suras with nasikh but no mansukh.
     40 suras with mansukh but no nasikh.
     25 suras with both nasikh and mansukh.


    According to Suyuti's Itqan there are 21 instances in the Qur'an, where a revelation has been abrogated by another.
    He also indicates that there is a difference of opinion about some of these: e.g. 4: 8, 24: 58, etc. [Itqan, II, pp.20-3; Kamal, op.cit., pp.101-9 also gives Suyuti's complete list.]
    Some scholars have attempted to reduce the number of abrogations in the Qur'an even further, by explaining the relationships between the verses in some special ways, e.g. by pointing out that no legal abrogation is involved, or that
    for certain reasons the naskh is not genuine
    Shah Waliullah (d. 1759) the great Muslim scholar from India only retained the following 5 out of Suyuti's 21 cases as genuine:

    Mansukh 2: 180 nasikh 4: 11, 12
    Mansukh 2:240 nasikh 2: 234.
    Mansukh 8:65 nasikh 8: 62.
    Mansukh 30:50 nasikh 33: 52.
    Mansukh 58: 12 nasikh 58: 13.

    A case listed by Suyuti, which has no direct legal implication is the following:
    Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When the verse: 'If there are 20 amongst you, patient and persevering,
    they will overcome two hundred', was revealed, it became hard on the Muslims, when it became
    compulsory that one Muslim ought not to flee before 10 (non-Muslims) so Allah lightened the order by
    revealing: 'but now Allah has lightened your (task) for He knows that there is weakness in
    you. But (even so) if there are 100 amongst you who are patient and persevering, they will
    overcome 200 (non-Muslims)' (8: 66). So when Allah reduced the number of enemies that Muslims
    should withstand, their patience and perseverence against the enemy decreased as much as their task
    was lightened for them. [Bukhari, VI, No.176.]
    Still others hold that there are no genuine (sahih) reports available on this issue, going back to the Prophet, while those going back to the Companions contradict each other. [Ali, M.M.: The Religion of Islam, Lahore, 1936, p.32. It may be pointed out that Ali's treatment of the subject is not very thorough. Of the three examp1es he cites in support of his opinion ('in most cases, where a report is traceable to one Companion who held a certain verse to have been abrogated, there is another report traceable to another Companion, through the fact that the verse was not abrogated' - p. 33) two are definitely not in his favour, while the third can be easily explained. His first case concerns Sura 2:180 (inheritance). It has certainly been superseded by other verses, e.g. 4:7-9 and that is probably all that is meant, when saying it is mansukh Ali's second case, '2:184, is considered by Ibn 'Umar as having been abrogated while Ibn 'Abbas says it was not' . See below, where I have quoted this very hadith from Ibn 'Abbas (Bukhari, VI, No.32) where Ibn 'Abbas himself explains why he does not hold it as abrogated. The third case is, like the first one, definitely not in support of Ali: '2: 240
    was abrogated according to Ibn Zubair, while Mujahid says it was not'. This is wrong, see Sahih Bukhari, VI, Nos. 53 and 54, where both Ibn Zubair and Mujahid hold the verse to be abrogated. Furthermore both Ibn Zubair and Mujahid are tabi'un, and not Companions (sahaba).]
    Therefore to them the issue of nasikh wa al mansukh is perhaps not of great importance. However, it is clear from the Qur'an itself, (e.g. in the case of inheritance, 2: 180; 4: 7-9, etc.) that abrogation occurred occasionally. Hence it is wrong to completely ignore the subject.
    Abrogation and Specification There is of course a difference between abrogation and specification. By the latter is meant that one revelation explains in more detail or according to specific circumstances how another revelation should be understood.
    Example: Sura 2:183 says 'O you who believe, fasting is prescribed to you ...'
    Narrated 'Ata' that he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting the Divine verse 'for those who can do it is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent' (2:184). Ibn 'Abbas said 'This verse is not abrogated but it is meant for old men and old women who have no strength to fast, so they should feed one poor person for each day of fasting (instead of fasting). [Bukhari, VI, No. 32.]
    It is quite clear that the second verse (2:184) does not abrogate the rule of fasting from the first verse (2:183) but explains that in a specific case, that of feeble old people, there is a way of making up for the loss of fast.
    In the same way the verses concerning intoxicating drinks can be understood as specifications rather than abrogations (see 4:43;2:219;5:93-4).
    Summary The Qur'an, in 2:106, refers to the concept of naskh. However, there is a difference of opinion about the extent to which al-nasikh wa-al mansukh does in fact occur in the text of the Qur'an. The information concerning al-nasikh wa-al mansukh must be treated with great caution as, for all reports concerning the text of the Qur'an, two independent witnesses are required. Many of the examples which the scholars have drawn upon to illustrate this question (and I have quoted them for the same purpose) are based on one witness only. 'A'isha alone reported that 10 or 5 sucklings had been part of the Qur'anic recitation, and only 'Umar reported that the 'verse of stoning' had been included in the Qur'anic text.
    These legal rulings are not included in the Qur'an precisely because they were not considered reliable, being based on one witness only. Similarly, other examples about naskh, based on the words of Ibn 'Abbas or Mujahid alone, are to be judged by the same measure.
    However, as mentioned there remain a small number of verses which, as far as can be ascertained from the internal evidence of the Qur'an, have been superseded by other verses in the Qur'an.


    (From: Ulum al-Quran by Ahmad von Denffer)

  2. #2
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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Wa alaikum asalam.

    I wanted to ask about this:

    .
    حدثني ‏ ‏سويد بن سعيد ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏علي بن مسهر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏داود ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبي حرب بن أبي الأسود ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏بعث ‏ ‏أبو موسى الأشعري ‏ ‏إلى قراء أهل ‏ ‏البصرة ‏ ‏فدخل عليه ‏ ‏ثلاث مائة رجل قد قرءوا القرآن فقال أنتم خيار أهل ‏ ‏البصرة ‏ ‏وقراؤهم فاتلوه ولا يطولن عليكم الأمد فتقسو قلوبكم كما قست قلوب من كان قبلكم ‏
    وإنا كنا نقرأ سورة كنا نشبهها في الطول والشدة ‏ ‏ببراءة ‏ ‏فأنسيتها غير أني قد حفظت منها ‏ ‏لو كان لابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏واديان من مال لابتغى واديا ثالثا ولا يملأ جوف ابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏إلا التراب وكنا نقرأ سورة كنا نشبهها بإحدى ‏ ‏المسبحات ‏ ‏فأنسيتها غير أني حفظت منها يا أيها الذين آمنوا لم تقولون ما لا تفعلون فتكتب شهادة في أعناقكم فتسألون عنها يوم القيامة

    abu Harb b. abu al-aswad reported on the authority of his father that abu Musa al-ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. they came to him and they were three hundred in number. they recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it:" If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust." and we used so recite a slirah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it:" Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and" that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).

    I remembered reading from somewhere that the soorah and those verses which Abu Musa (ra) said were abrogated (Naskh at-Tilawaa), this is fine. But with regards to the verse about the son of adam and the vallys, there is another hadeeth which says:

    و حدثني ‏ ‏زهير بن حرب ‏ ‏وهارون بن عبد الله ‏ ‏قالا حدثنا ‏ ‏حجاج بن محمد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ ابن جريج ‏ ‏قال سمعت ‏ ‏عطاء ‏ ‏يقول سمعت ‏ ‏ ابن عباس ‏ ‏يقولا ‏
    سمعت رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يقول ‏ ‏لو أن لابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏ ملء واد مالا لأحب أن يكون إليه مثله ولا يملأ نفس ابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏إلا التراب والله يتوب على من تاب ‏
    قال ‏ ‏ ابن عباس ‏ ‏فلا أدري أمن القرآن هو أم لا ‏ ‏وفي رواية ‏ ‏زهير ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏فلا أدري أمن القرآن لم يذكر ‏ ‏ ابن عباس

    Ibn abbas reported allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: If there were for the son of adam a valley full of riches, he would long to possess another one like it. and Ibn adam does not feel satiated but with dust. 1413 and allah returns to him who returns (to HiM). 1414 Ibn abbas said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an or not; and in the narration transmitted by Zuhair it was said: I do not know whether it is from the Qur'an, and he made no mention of Ibn abbas.

    What does the hadeeth mean?

    wasalaam.

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Anyone?

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    Super Moderator al-ghazalli's Avatar
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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    As Salam Alikum


    The things you have quoted Sidi deal with naskh aborgation where Allah causes the individual to forget the aborgated portions of the Qur`an. I will take a look at Imam Suyuti's (Rahimullah) al-itqan which is the magnus opous on the sciences of the Qur`an and try to reply back in greater detail inshallah.
    The spiritual warrior is he who breaks an idol;
    and the idol of each person is his Ego.

    - Imam Abul Qasim al-Qushayri

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Asalamu alaikum,

    Done a little research and found the answer alhamudlillah

    Some of the companians thought that this saying ( ‏لو كان لابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏واديان من مال لابتغى واديا ثالثا ولا يملأ جوف ابن ‏ ‏ آدم ‏ ‏إلا التراب tr. If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of adam but dust...) was part of the Qur'aan (such as Abu Musa Al-ash'aree -radiallahu anhu-) and others thought it as simply being a saying of ar-rasoolullaah -sallalaahu alayhi wasallam- such as Anas bin Malik -radiullahu anh- as is said in this hadeeth:

    ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد العزيز بن عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏إبراهيم بن سعد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏صالح ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ابن شهاب ‏ ‏قال أخبرني ‏ ‏أنس بن مالك ‏
    ‏أن رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏لو أن لابن ‏ ‏آدم ‏ ‏واديا من ذهب أحب أن يكون له واديان ولن يملأ فاه إلا التراب ويتوب الله على من تاب

    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Allah's Apostle said, "If Adam's son had a valley full of gold, he would like to have two valleys, for nothing fills his mouth except dust. And Allah forgives him who repents to Him."

    Those who tought that the the saying was a ayaat of the Qur'aan have then agreed that it is mansookh at-Tilawaah (recitation is abrogated), as is stated in this hadeeth:

    Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd:

    I heard Ibn Az-Zubair who was on the pulpit at Mecca, delivering a sermon, saying, "O men! The Prophet used to say, "If the son of Adam were given a valley full of gold, he would love to have a second one; and if he were given the second one, he would love to have a third, for nothing fills the belly of Adam's son except dust. And Allah forgives he who repents to Him." Ubai said, "We considered this as a saying from the Qur'an till the Sura (beginning with) 'The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you..' (102.1) was revealed."

    Also, Imaam Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar al-asqaani (rahimullah) says in commemtary of the hadeeth of Anas bin Malik:

    الله عليه وسلم , وقد شرحه بعضهم على أنه كان قرآنا ونسخت تلاوته لما نزلت ( ألهاكم التكاثر حتى زرتم المقابر ) فاستمرت تلاوتها فكانت ناسخة لتلاوة ذلك



    When this Surah was revealed and expressed the same meaning as it (the Adam statement) they knew that the first statement (the Adam statement) was from the statements of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Some of them explained it to be part of the Quran and then its recitation was abrogated when 'The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you..' (102.1) was revealed." so its recitation persisted so it abrogated the recitation of that (the Adam statement). But it's wisdom and ruling was not abrogated if its recitation was abrogated.



    ومنه ما وقع عند أحمد وأبي عبيد في " فضائل القرآن " من حديث أبي واقد الليثي قال " كنا نأتي النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم إذا نزل عليه فيحدثنا , فقال لنا ذات يوم : إن الله قال إنما أنزلنا المال لإقام الصلاة وإيتاء الزكاة , ولو كان لابن آدم واد لأحب أن يكون له ثان " الحديث بتمامه , وهذا يحتمل أن يكون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أخبر به عن الله تعالى على أنه من القرآن , ويحتمل أن يكون من الأحاديث القدسية , والله أعلم وعلى الأول فهو مما نسخت تلاوته جزما وإن كان حكمه مستمرا



    And it also occurred at Ahmad and Abi Ubayd in "Virtues of the Quran" from hadith Abi Waqid Al Labani who said "We used to go to the Prophet (PBUH) if something was revealed to him so he would tell us, so he told us that day: Allah says "We have sent down money for the establishment of prayer and payment of Zakat, and if the son of Adam had a valley full of gold, he would like to have two valleys." that is the very hadith, and it is possible that the Prophet (PBUH) informed that this is a verse from the Quran, and it is also possible that it is from the Qudsi Hadith, and God knows and if it is the first (meaning first explanation that it was part of the Quran) then it is what was abrogated from recitation even though its wisdom and rulings are still implemented. [Fat-h ulbaari, translated by Bassam Zadawi]

    So Basically those who tought the saying was an ayaah in the Qur'aan have also said that the text is abrogated but the wisdom and ruling still applies. So the verse does not matter now, as it is not NOW in the Qur'aan.

    The abrogation i belive is the third type (i.e Naskh atTilawah Ma' baqaa'a al-Hukm)

    And Allaah knows best.
    wasalaam.

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    UofA Goldenbears Marwan's Avatar
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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    It's a complicated topic, with many questions unanswered, but I believe the source of it are da'eef ahadith. There is one in the musnad of Imam Ahmad (r) where it has Ubayy ibn Kab (r) saying:

    "Surah al-Ahzab was originally 100 verses and in it, was the verse regarding stoning."

    Wallahu wa rasool a3lam
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." -Orson Welles

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    As-Sideeq

    Asalamu alaikum,

    Done a little research and found the answer alhamudlillah
    awsome Sidi thanks for finding the info! it saved me a lot of time!
    The spiritual warrior is he who breaks an idol;
    and the idol of each person is his Ego.

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marwan View Post
    It's a complicated topic, with many questions unanswered, but I believe the source of it are da'eef ahadith. There is one in the musnad of Imam Ahmad (r) where it has Ubayy ibn Kab (r) saying:

    "Surah al-Ahzab was originally 100 verses and in it, was the verse regarding stoning."

    Wallahu wa rasool a3lam
    Asalamu alaikum,

    Do you mean the ahadeeth that i posted with regards to the valley of riches? i found them in saheeh bukhaari and Muslim.
    Ash-shaykhu wa ash-shaykatu itha zanaya farjumu huma al-battata

    That is ayaat ar-rajm according to Ubai ibn Ka'b (ra) it is in musnad ahmad, i dont know wether the hadeeth is da'eef or not though, heres the the chain of narration if you want to verify:

    حدثنا ‏ ‏عبد الله ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏خلف بن هشام ‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏حماد بن زيد ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏عاصم بن بهدلة ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏زر ‏ ‏قال


    Also Why do you believe those ahadeeth to be da'eef.

    Wasalaam.

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Okay, my bad. But what did Ubay ibn Ka'b (ra) mean by saying there were so & so # of verses in the Qur'an? I don't understand that. Are they abrogated, or forgotten? Were they misrepresented as Qur'an, when they were really ahadith?
    "Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone elses opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation." -Orson Welles

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marwan View Post
    Okay, my bad. But what did Ubay ibn Ka'b (ra) mean by saying there were so & so # of verses in the Qur'an? I don't understand that. Are they abrogated, or forgotten? Were they misrepresented as Qur'an, when they were really ahadith?
    Asalamu alaikum

    I have not studied the issue of An-nasikh wal-mansookh closely, i am still learning.

    Imaam Ibn Hajr, Imaam Nawawi, and other scholars have stated that that saying (ashaykhu wa ashakhatu..) was ayaat ar-rajm, but the recitation was abrogated and the law still applies.

    Because of this, i believe that Ubai ibn Ka'b (ra) meant to say that as-shayku.. was mansookh.

    Thats all i can say for now.
    Allahu alim.
    waslaam.

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Um Abdullah View Post

    None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106).

    [Some however say that this refers to the revelations before the Qur’an, which have now been substituted by the Qur’an itself. See Mawdudi. The Meaning of the Qur’an, Lahore, 1967, Vol. I, p.102. note 109.]



    The abrogation fo Qur'anic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Qur'an, wasoriginally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

    This concept invented originally by these scholars, claims that there are some verses in the Quran that have been abrogated and invalidated by other verses!

    The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).
    These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.

    Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by non-Muslim writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.


    Abrogation claims of Muslim Scholars

    Hud (The Prophet Hud)

    الَر كِتَابٌ أُحْكِمَتْ آيَاتُهُ ثُمَّ فُصِّلَتْ مِن لَّدُنْ حَكِيمٍ خَبِيرٍ
    (11:1)

    11:1 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things):


    Yunus (Jonah)

    لَهُمُ الْبُشْرَى فِي الْحَياةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ لاَ تَبْدِيلَ لِكَلِمَاتِ اللّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ (10:64)

    10:64 For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity.


    Although God asserts that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions, yet sadly these scholars have invented the greatest lie about the Quran, claiming that there are verses in the Quran that abrogate and invalidate other verses.

    They base their claim on a corrupted interpretation of two verses:
    FIRST VERSE 2:106

    "Whichever Ayah We relinquish or cause to be forgotten We replace it with its equal or with that which is greater, did you not know that God is capable of all things?" 2:106

    What the interpreters claim is that this verse confirms that some Quranic verses are invalidated by others. They interpret ‘Ayah’ in this verse to mean a verse in the Quran.

    However the word Ayah, as used in the Quran, can have one of four different meanings:

    a- It could mean a miracle from God as in:

    "And We supported Moses with nine profound Ayah’s (miracles)." 17:101

    b- It could also mean an example for people to take heed from as in:

    "And the folk of Noah, when they disbelieved the messengers, We have drowned them and set an Ayah (example) of them for all people." 25:37

    c- The word ‘Ayah’ can also mean a sign as in:

    "He said, ‘My Lord, give me an ‘Ayah’ (sign).’ He said, ‘Your Ayah is that you will not speak to people for three consecutive nights." 19:10

    d- It could mean a verse in the Quran, as in:

    "This is a book that We have sent down to you that is sacred, perhaps they will reflect on its ‘Ayat’ (verses)." 38:29

    Now if we consider verse 106 of Sura 2, we can easily spot that the word ‘Ayah’ in this particular verse could not mean a verse in the Quran. It can mean any of the other meanings (miracle, example or sign) but not a verse in the Quran.

    This is because of the following reasons:

    1- The words "cause to be forgotten" could not be applicable if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a verse in the Quran.

    How can a verse in the Quran become forgotten? For even if the verse was invalidated by another (as the interpreters falsely claim) it will still be part of the Quran and thus could never be forgotten.

    2- The words "We replace it with its equal" would be meaningless if the word ‘Ayah’ in this verse meant a Quranic verse, simply because it would make no sense for God to invalidate one verse then replace it with one that is identical to it!

    3- If the word ‘Ayah’ in verse 106 meant a miracle an example or a sign, then all the words of the verse would make perfect sense.

    The words "cause to be forgotten" can apply to all three meanings and that is what actually happens with the passing of time.

    The miracles of Moses and Jesus have long been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

    Similarly the words "We replace with its equal or with that which is greater" is in line with the miracles of God. God indeed replaces one miracle with its equal or with one that is greater than it. Consider the following verse :

    "And We have sent Moses with Our Ayah’s (miracles or signs) to Pharaoh and his elders proclaiming : ‘I am a messenger from the Lord of the universe’. When he brought them our Ayah’s they laughed at him. Every Ayah We showed them was greater than the one that preceded it." 43:46-48

    SECOND VERSE 16:101

    "When We substitute one Ayat (revelation) in place of another, and God is fully aware of what He reveals, they say, 'You made this up'. Indeed most of them do not know"


    The substitution spoken of here is concerned with one of two things:

    a- The substitution of one Scripture in place of another.

    b- The substitution of one verse or law within a Scripture with another in a subsequent Scripture

    a- The first meaning is given evidence to in the following verse:

    "Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them." 5:48

    Here, the words "superseding them." confirm that the previous scripture were substituted with the Quran.

    b- The second meaning is also given evidence to in the Quran where various issues that were prohibited to the previous people of the book were made lawful in the Quran.

    As an example, we are told in 2:187 that sexual intercourse between married couples during the nights of the fasting month was made lawful, while it was prohibited previously.

    We are also told in 6:146 that God prohibited for the Jews all animals with undivided hoofs; and of the cattle and sheep the fat was prohibited. These were made lawful in the Quran.

    This verse 16:101 does not speak about the substitution of one verse in the Quran with another.

    The evidence to that is given within the same verse (16:101):


    The key to the meaning of the verse lies in the words:

    "........they say, 'You made this up"
    Here we must stop and ask, who is likely to tell the messenger "You made this up" ? and why? For sure it cannot be his followers, his followers are not likely to tell him

    "You have made it up"................it has to be those who do not believe in him, which focuses on the followers of previous scripture who feared that their scripture was in danger of being "substituted" with the Quran............

    What more evidence to that more than the fact that till this day, the Jews and Christians accuse Muhammad that he fabricated the Quran himself! If this accusation is from the Jews and Christians we must then ask, are they accusing Muhammad of substituting one verse in the Quran with another?

    The Jews and Christians do not care if one verse in the Quran is substituted for another, after all they do not believe in the whole book............. they will not complain that one verse in the Quran is being substituted with another!

    However, and if their Scripture is being substituted by the Quran, they will immediately accuse the messenger that the Scripture he brings (Quran) is not from God but that he "made it up" himself.

    These glorious words "You have made it up" indeed stand as true indicator from God Almighty that the substitution spoken of in this verse is not related to one within the Quran, but indeed a substitution between two scripture.

    As mentioned before, the substitution of the previous scripture with the Quran is confirmed in 5:48

    As a result of the corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101, and the claim that some Quranic verses invalidate other verses, the interpreters have demonstrated their failure to uphold two main characteristics of the Quran, those being that the Quran is perfect and harbours no contradictions (11:1) and also that the words of God are unchangeable (10:64).

    It is well worth inquiring here into the motive behind the interpreters corruption of the meaning of 2:106 and 16:101.

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    I thought I read on the internet of a book that came out in the 1902s I thought the name was al Nasikh wal Mansukh showing and commenting on all the verses in the Koran that had been abrogated. I believe it is in Arabic, and I'd be willing to learn Arabic to read it but I cannot find the title or even the author again.
    Could someone let me know what it is?
    let me know
    thanks
    Jason

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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    I am aware I'm reviving a very old thread, but it contains important background to my question so I preferred replying here rather than creating a new thread.

    I was not familiar with the concept of abrogation until just some hours ago, and have been researching it since. It is being claimed that verses have been deleted from the Quran after the Prophet (pbuh). Surely this is an issue?

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    Troll Hunter Supreme Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    Quote Originally Posted by deogol View Post
    I am aware I'm reviving a very old thread, but it contains important background to my question so I preferred replying here rather than creating a new thread.

    I was not familiar with the concept of abrogation until just some hours ago, and have been researching it since. It is being claimed that verses have been deleted from the Quran after the Prophet (pbuh). Surely this is an issue?
    they havent,

    what has been abrogated are previously revealed verses/scriptures.

    regards,
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "O followers of Muhammad! By Allah, if you knew what I know, you would weep much and laugh little."

    [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, Hadith no. 627]

    May Allah ta'ala join our beloved akhi Uncle-Umar (may Allah ta'ala have mercy upon him) with the Shuhada and grant him the Highest station in Jannatul Firdaus

    Ameen


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    Re: About Abrogation in the Quran (al Nasikh wal Mansukh)

    I have read several accounts of it now.
    The main incident is regarding the punishment of adultery. The quran says that it should be 100 lashes. There are however many narrations of Aisha telling that there used to be another ayah in the quran saying that if the adultery was committed by a married person then he/she should be stoned. However it is claimed that the paper the verse was written on was eaten by a goat (no joke!).

    Here is one link relating the issue:
    http://www.quranic.org/quran_article/26/rajm_stoning_to_death.htm

    However I have now also find partly an explanation to half the issue:
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_quranic_verse_on_stoning

    So apparently the "deleted" verse was not supposed to be in the written quran to begin with... it was revealed, and should still be followed, but the companions agreed that it shouldnt be included in the quran...
    that is all fine but that is not explaining the whole goat-story.


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