Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory

[Al Khidr]

:lailah:

As Salaamu Alaykum:

There is a sect in Islaam called "Progressive Muslims" and they are also known as "Free Minds". They have a strange concept of Salaat, they teach that Allah only authorized 3 Salaat times in the Qur'aan while the rest of the Muslim World teach that Allah authorized 5 Salaat times or periods in the Qur'aan. We want all Muslims (no matter what persuation you come from) to know that TAWHIYD has completed their extensive research on this heated subject and have laid to rest the FINAL ARGUMENT. We have dissected the "3 Salaat Theory" and intellectually REFUTED their arguments, beyond doubt. Visit the link below to examine yourself:

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

Salaam

[Arsalan]

Article wud be very useful to counter others too.

[Al-ghurabah]

muslims today we see many foolish groups coming up with their own theories.. alot now from western countries muslims from uk usa etc who want toreform islam.. best thing to do is stick to the quran sunnah and the 1st 3 generations.. as theyare the praised ones.. we can see no one in those times prayed 3 raher 5..

this is what happens when we go away from the quran an sunnah and start tofolow our own hawa.. and mind...

[Al Khidr]

Salaam

You are so right about how all these Muslim groups are forming their own theories. Allah clearly states in 2:2 that the Qur'aan is infallible. I personally believe that this same Book, The Holy Qur'aan is the only source that can bring unity back to the ummah. People/Groups become a sect when they create labels and deviate from the true teaching of Al Qur'aan.

Salaam

[jello]

Salam and Hello,

I hope I am wrong, but I believe the topic started and the site he is caling to (freewebs.com and TAWHIYD) is a Quranist website and group, the very same thing we are trying to condemn in here...:rubeyes:

[Al Khidr]

Salam and Hello,

I hope I am wrong, but I believe the topic started and the site he is caling to (freewebs.com and TAWHIYD) is a Quranist website and group, the very same thing we are trying to condemn in here...:rubeyes:

As Salaamu Alaykum Jello:

The Tawhiyd and Freeminds beliefs are not 100%. Both websites do not follow hadiyth however their views on Salaat, Ramadaan, just to name a few are different. I do not adhere to hadiyth, I follow Qur'aan alone. There is no evidence inside Al Qur'aan to follow hadiyth. We have accepted tradition without question and think it is the correct path. I will be willing to address that with you any time.

Salaam

[kanize]

[QUOTE=Al Khidr;1306073]As Salaamu Alaykum Jello:

The Tawhiyd and Freeminds beliefs are not 100%. Both websites do not follow hadiyth however their views on Salaat, Ramadaan, just to name a few are different. I do not adhere to hadiyth, I follow Qur'aan alone. There is no evidence inside Al Qur'aan to follow hadiyth. We have accepted tradition without question and think it is the correct path. I will be willing to address that with you any time.

Salaam[/

wait... U dont follow hadith!? but doesnt in the Quran ALLAH(swt) says to follow his Prophet Muhammad(S:).. and if u dont follow hadtih then how do u learn to pray or make wudu???

[icarrim]

It is very crystal- clear.The adherents to the 3 salaat theory do not belong the firqa commanding the largest majority.They belong either to one of the 72 small firqas or are outside the fold of Islam.

[-Yassar]

It is very crystal- clear.The adherents to the 3 salaat theory do not belong the firqa commanding the largest majority.They belong either to one of the 72 small firqas or are outside the fold of Islam.

as are the Quran'ites who follow hadith only...

[Al Khidr]

[QUOTE=Al Khidr;1306073]As Salaamu Alaykum Jello:

The Tawhiyd and Freeminds beliefs are not 100%. Both websites do not follow hadiyth however their views on Salaat, Ramadaan, just to name a few are different. I do not adhere to hadiyth, I follow Qur'aan alone. There is no evidence inside Al Qur'aan to follow hadiyth. We have accepted tradition without question and think it is the correct path. I will be willing to address that with you any time.

Salaam[/

wait... U dont follow hadith!? but doesnt in the Quran ALLAH(swt) says to follow his Prophet Muhammad(S:).. and if u dont follow hadtih then how do u learn to pray or make wudu???

As Salaamu Alaykum Kanize

Thanks for your question. Yes its true that I do not follow hadiyth and I would like to present my position with my link below and please read it with an open mind. Really think about hadiyth and raise the question in your mind to whether or not is there really physical evidence inside the Qur'aan to support the belief of hadiyth:

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/hadiythexposed.htm

Now in terms of Salaat. Remember that Islaam did not come with Muhammad, Islaam existed before Muhammad:

Qur’aan 16:123
Then We inspired to you (Muhammad), that you are to follow the religion of Abraham (millatu Ibrahiym) the upright (hanifan) and he (Abraham) was not one of the idol worshippers.

The Qur'aan clearly says that Muhammad followed "Milla Ibrahiym" the religion of Abraham and we all know this is Islaam. Also look at the following verses which also prove that Islaam always have existed, even before Muhammad:

Qur’aan 42:13-14
13. He has prescribed for you the SAME religion, which He decreed on Noah, and what We have sent by inspiration to you, and what We decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: “You shall uphold this ONE religion, and do not divide it.” The idol worshippers will resent what you invite them to do. Allah redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself everyone who submits in peace.

14. Ironically, they broke up into sects-only after the knowledge had come to them-due to jealousy and resentment among themselves. If it were not for a predetermined decision from your Sustainer to respite them for a definite interim, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, these later generations who inherited the scripture are full of doubts.

This verse makes it very clear that the religion of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus religion or way of life was ISLAAM. Salaat has always existed, thus Salaat was pass down from generation to generation and the Qur'aan uses the Arabic word "Salaat" for the Prophets that came before Muhammad right in the Holy Qur'aan and that is because Salaat was practiced/observed before Muhammad. So Salaat has always been preserved, thus we do not need hadiyth to teach us how to perform Salaat. All we need is the Holy Qur'aan and as a matter of fact man over the generations have added or innovated things within Salaat that should not be there and we must use the Qur'aan to purify/eliminate those man-made things, which crept into the Deen. Now please examine the links below and you will see the evidence for Salaat in Al Qur'aan:

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/findsalaatinquraan.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

http://www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6028.0

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/shahaada/Abraham_Original_Messenger_Of_Islaam.html

Hadiyth never taught us a unified form of Salaat and that is why when you go to one masjid to another and from one country to another orthodox Muslims do not perform or practice Salaat the same and that is because the ahadiyth records various practices of Salaat that are not the same and also conflicts with one another and you end up in a position to pick and choose all because the source (hadiyth) is not a consistant source unlike the Holy Qur'aan. The Qur'aan is the unifying force that can purify our Salaat that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Salaam

[kanize]

Brother Khidr,
I m glad u used the word "open mind" because when i go on to refute your argument I hope u keep exactly that an unbiased perspective. The primal fault nowdays is that we argue for the sake of argument... however I think its best to refrain from that, so I expect u and myself to engage in a OPEN MINDED... UNBIASED discourse which will hopefull lead us somewhere... and if not then at least we might learn something frm it. .. BUT before I go on, I need to understand your position or perspective on Prophet (PBUH S). I want you to tell me specifically how you regard him(S) in Islam, how much loyalty or obedieance should we have towards him, and what role (in ur eyes) does he play in our religion.
~~~~~ Also there are 2 significant points that needs to be closesly examined! in the last post u said,

"Hadiyth never taught us a unified form of Salaat and that is why when you go to one masjid to another and from one country to another orthodox Muslims do not perform or practice Salaat the same and that is because the ahadiyth records various practices of Salaat that are not the same and also conflicts with one another and you end up in a position to pick and choose all because the source (hadiyth) is not a consistant source unlike the Holy Qur'aan. The Qur'aan is the unifying force that can purify our Salaat that has been passed down from generation to generation."

Hadith did teach us a unified form of salaat..the core prayer is unified.. threfore when everyone is gatheres in Mecca from around the world they can all pray behind one IMAaM. The kabad, the sadal, and the sajud are the adornment of a prayer and they are subject to variation.. hence if u are tweking these minorites as major diffrences then that makes for a feeble argument.... I have yet to c a muslim who does not recite fatiha when he prays!!

secondly the concept of Islam.. INDEED it is true that the religion of ebrahim, yunus, yusef, yahya, yaqub, Adam, ebrahim, Ishmail, Idris, Nuh, Sauleh, Lut,Musa, Isa (A) were the religion of ALLAH(swt) and they all will go bak to ALLAH(swt) these religions however were a progression; Hence Islam came with Prophet(s) but UMMAH exsisted from the beginning and as the progression happend one invalidated the other WHen Isa (a) came the practices of the jews were rejected (it is understood why therefore I wont go into detail unless u want me to) and when Prophet Muhammad (S) came the practices of the ISAIIES were invalidated.

Lets take a closer look.... As u mentioned about Ebrahim(A) and him being a hanafi ur absolutely rite.. Prophet Muhammad (s) was also part of this group.. and its best illuminated by the historian Roy Rogerson in his biography of Prophet (S) when he says, "As Muhammad (S) grew in wealth and wisdom he joined a select group of religious thinkers in Mecca knon as the hanif." ROgerson goes on to say, "They looked for references to the true religion of ancient arabia the religion established by the Patriarch Abraham."(Rogerson, 75) so we can conclude that Prophet (s) before revelation was a hanif as well and practiced the same form of prayer as the others. HOwever after revelation he abondoned that form of prayer, because he recived clear direction from ALLAH(SWT)!! I hold u intelligent enough to understand what I am saying, however if there is a lacking from my part then do let me know bcoz i m willing to illuminate further on these two points.

SO BEFORE WE PROGRESS FURTHER I WANT YOU TO CONTEMPLATE AND CLARIFY THESE THINGS .

[Al Khidr]

Salaamu Alaykum Kanize:

Alhamdulillah to this:

“I m glad u used the word "open mind" because when i go on to refute your argument I hope u keep exactly that an unbiased perspective. The primal fault nowdays is that we argue for the sake of argument... however I think its best to refrain from that, so I expect u and myself to engage in a OPEN MINDED...”

I would be delighted to have dialogue/debate with you on the subject of hadiyth.

You have asked me some questions about Muhammad and let me see if I can give you an insight of my view of Prophet Muhammad. (1) I recognize Muhammad to be a Messenger/Prophet sent by Allah (2) His major mission was to receive and deliver the seal of the scriptures which is Al Qur’aan (3) I do not exalt him over other Prophets nor do I worship him in any form or fashion. You have said, “how much loyalty or obedieance should we have towards him”. To tell you the truth, I’m a Muslim who submits my will to the will of Allah and I only bow down and worship Allah and no man, so my sole obedience and worship is for Allah alone. (4) I believe that the Holy Qur’aan is infallible and it is the only infallible book on earth and not those hadiyths.

You have said this right here:

“Hadith did teach us a unified form of salaat..the core prayer is unified.. threfore when everyone is gatheres in Mecca from around the world they can all pray behind one IMAaM. The kabad, the sadal, and the sajud are the adornment of a prayer and they are subject to variation.. hence if u are tweking these minorites as major diffrences then that makes for a feeble argument.... I have yet to c a muslim who does not recite fatiha when he prays!!”

I believe that you are simplifying it. I have been to several masjids and yes they all recite Al Fatihah but they also have innovated things as part of Salaat which vary from masjid to masjid. Some Muslims observe Salaat silently, some Muslims recite certain Arabic words, sayings, prayers before they recite the Fatihah, I mean the list goes on and on and I have examined many hadiyth that report things about salaat which all contradicts one another, which is further proof that hadiyth were not kept pure or intact or infallible nor can be used as a unified source for Salaat and to practice Deen ul Allah in general.

I have a question for you Kanize, how many steps do you perform or do for wudu, like for example, do you sniff water up the nose, in the mouth, wipe hands and feet etc. Can you tell me how many steps that you do for wudu?

Your statement below is incorrect:

“secondly the concept of Islam.. INDEED it is true that the religion of ebrahim, yunus, yusef, yahya, yaqub, Adam, ebrahim, Ishmail, Idris, Nuh, Sauleh, Lut,Musa, Isa (A) were the religion of ALLAH(swt) and they all will go bak to ALLAH(swt) these religions however were a progression”

The religion was not a progression. Look at the Qur’aan, the Qur’aan uses the Arabic word Al Islaam and Muslim in those verses that I quoted. You have made this statement:

“UMMAH exsisted from the beginning”

Islaam always existed from the beginning of time.

I see that you are using references from Roy Rogerson and that is fine but again here is what Allah says in the Qur’aan that he revealed:

Qur’aan 16:123
Then We inspired to you (Muhammad), that you are to follow the religion of Abraham (millatu Ibrahiym) the upright (hanifan) and he (Abraham) was not one of the idol worshippers.

As we can see in the only infallible book is that Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham. If it says that Muhammad FOLLOWED the religion of Abraham “Milla Ibrahiym”, then, therefore Muhammad did not bring his own religion, thus Islaam always existed. Also I know that you understand that there is a big difference between Salaat and Duaa. The Holy Qur’aan states that Abraham (who came before Muhammad) observed Salaat and since Muhammad followed the religion of Abraham he to followed that same form of Salaat, which we practice today, without shirk.

You have said that you will refute my arguments and I welcome such a challenge. Now since you want to debate the subject of hadiyth, I want to present the following CHALLENGE to YOU:

PRODUCE ONE VERSE IN AL QUR'AAN THAT SAYS EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:

(1) We are suppose to follow hadiyth? or

(2) We will get guidance from hadiyth? or

(3) We are suppose to believe in hadiyth? or

(4) Hadiyth was revealed or sent down (nazala) to Muhammad?

????????????????????????????

Below is the link of my arguments exposing hadiyth:

http://www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

Salaam