Idol worship

[stellared]

this is a good question raised in another thread but i thought it deserved its own poll.
is worshiping the kabba the black stone and the pedastal of Ibraham a form of idol worship?

[RaNdOm]

:salams

a hindu dude asked this q to dr zakir naik once

and he goes its about collectively havin the muslims pray towards sumt to emphasise unity... cos unity is oh so important in islam POW! :D

[belal1]

ofcourse worshipping the kaaba , the black stone and the pedestal is idoltry. i'd like to ask the non-muslims who think they understand islam, do you see muslims worshipping the kaaba, black stone or the pedestal ?

[Cardo]

Yes, it is Idol Worship, but no one worships these items.

Dr. Zakir Naik on the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FdUQ7BYDkU

[stellared]

:salams

a hindu dude asked this q to dr zakir naik once

and he goes its about collectively havin the muslims pray towards sumt to emphasise unity... cos unity is oh so important in islam POW! :D

But any idol worshipers could use that argument POW!

[RaNdOm]

But any idol worshipers could use that argument POW!

:salams

ahhh read the other posts POW! (my POWs better)

[True Life]

When Umar (r.a.a.) kissed the black stone he said something like "You are just a stone, you can't bring me advantage nor disadvantage. And if I hadn't seen the Prophet kiss you, I wouldn't have."

[aamilah]

if people were to "worship" them like u say, then ofcourse it is idol worship.

Islam does not direct muslims to worship these items, they are simply are Direction of worship as opposed to objects of worship

[dhakiyya]

the black stone and the kaaba are just markers, to mark the direction to pray in. The items have a deep significance, but they are not worshipped. In fact if you pray right in front of the stone you don't actually face it but face ever so slightly to the right or the left (forget which) so that you are not confused in this matter. It is Allah alone that is worshipped. When I pray I set the compass to the direction of Mecca but I think of Allah when I pray, not Mecca, the kaaba or a stone. If you watched me pray, and I had left the compass (or any other object) in front of me as a sutra (marker) you might think I was worshipping a compass (or whatever object i'd used). but I'm not, I'm worshipping Allah.

[stellared]

i dont think you guys get it, most people who you call idol worshipers actually only use them as a direction of worship and as a way to focus their worship. ofcourse you get some people who dont but people dont worship the cross because the cross replaces god, its because the cross represents god and is used like the kabba to focus ones prayers.

[dhakiyya]

i dont think you guys get it, most people who you call idol worshipers actually only use them as a direction of worship and as a way to focus their worship. ofcourse you get some people who dont but people dont worship the cross because the cross replaces god, its because the cross represents god and is used like the kabba to focus ones prayers.

Do i think the christians worship a cross? No. I dont know anyone that does think this. Though of course someone ignorant about Christianity might think this, but its not the objection that Islam has about Christianity

the problem is that they say Jesus (as) is the son of God (astaghfirullah)

[Immanuel]

Do i think the christians worship a cross? No. I dont know anyone that does think this. Though of course someone ignorant about Christianity might think this, but its not the objection that Islam has about Christianity

the problem is that they say Jesus (as) is the son of God (astaghfirullah)

We also say he is God

[dhakiyya]

We also say he is God

which is also a problem Islamically. (a human cannot be God)

anyway that debate is for "comparitive religions"

the point I was making is that Muslims don't believe that Christians worship a cross, as Stellared accused us of.

[Immanuel]

which is also a problem Islamically. (a human cannot be God)

anyway that debate is for "comparitive religions"

the point I was making is that Muslims don't believe that Christians worship a cross, as Stellared accused us of.

True. I know muslims do not worship God but then again I feel that there is more to the Kaba than what we all believe.

[.: Anna :.]

Stellared... I really feel astounded when I see the questions you ask.
Hopefully now this has been explained to you, you won't drag it out like you have done in the past with your other queries.
We dont mind answering questions, but with you I just get the impression you dont actually want to learn, you are just trying to be clever. (but unfortunately for you, failing miserably :( )

[Makki]

who worships the kabaa or the black stone?

hindus?

stellared im sure if muslims just prayed upwards you'd accuse us of worshipping the sky.

[Maureen]

ofcourse worshipping the kaaba , the black stone and the pedestal is idoltry. i'd like to ask the non-muslims who think they understand islam, do you see muslims worshipping the kaaba, black stone or the pedestal ?
It is my understanding that when Muslims are circling the kaaba on their pilgrimage, they are not worshipping it, they are only worshipping God. Perhaps someone could say more about this though.

[alhadid]

who worships the kabaaa ?

[Maureen]

i dont think you guys get it, most people who you call idol worshipers actually only use them as a direction of worship and as a way to focus their worship. ofcourse you get some people who dont but people dont worship the cross because the cross replaces god, its because the cross represents god and is used like the kabba to focus ones prayers.

As a Christian, I do not worship the cross at all, only God. I see the cross there butit is a representation of what happened to Christ when he died on it for our sins. It is not however a symbol of worship per se. We can only ever worship God.
In a similar way, I believe the kaaba to be like that too for Muslims.

[belal1]

It is my understanding that when Muslims are circling the kaaba on their pilgrimage, they are not worshipping it, they are only worshipping God. Perhaps someone could say more about this though.

As a Christian, I do not worship the cross at all, only God. I see the cross there butit is a representation of what happened to Christ when he died on it for our sins. It is not however a symbol of worship per se. We can only ever worship God.
In a similar way, I believe the kaaba to be like that too for Muslims.

theres alot of significance to the kaaba. first is that it is the first house in the world no? it was rebuilt by prophet ibrahim AS (who christians call abraham incase you're wondering). around the kaaba is where ibrahim's AS wife ( i forgot her name) was looking desperately for water to give to her son. thats when jibrael AS (who christians call gabriel incase you're wondering) struck some stone and water gushed out. that water is the ZAM ZAM water which every muslim drinks everyyear when in hajj. when we do hajj, we recreate the same things ibrahim's AS wife went through.

we face the kaaba everytime we pray because its a sign of unity. imagine if people were praying one infront of the other, facing each other. it would be hectic. no direction. no uniformity. people would get into arguements over who's position is right. but look how simple the solution was. just face toward kaaba, qiblah direction.

i always had a question for christians. how come christians don't do any pilgrimage to the kaaba? i mean before islam was even established christians didn't perform pilgrimage there. do the christians not want to see what the hands of ibrahim AS made for allah ta'ala?

[shaktionefree]

I am very tired and sick just now but in terms of this:
i always had a question for christians. how come christians don't do any pilgrimage to the kaaba? i mean before islam was even established christians didn't perform pilgrimage there. do the christians not want to see what the hands of ibrahim AS made for allah ta'ala?

The answer to this for the past..... many, many years is that it is suicide for a christian to attempt to enter Mecca? No? Am I wrong?

Surely the Christians, Coptics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Etc.... have cause to make such a pigrimage...... Thing is on ly Muslims can do so under wahabi controll.


Maybe one day.


By the way.... I know of many Christians who do worship the Cross, just as many Muslims do worship the Kabbah and the black stone. Allot can get lost in translation.

[Songbird]

Muslims do not worship the Ka'ba or the Black Stone.

[Simoneus]

Allah asks all muslims to pray towards the Kabaa.

According to islamic legends

This Kabaa was said to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael.
The corner stone (a meteorite) brought by Gabriel.

After that it was the site was used for pagan worship by the arabs.

Yet in the early part of the revelation, the muslims turned to Jerusalem to pray.

This was because the jews of Medinah turned to Jerusalem.

However, the jews rejected Mohammed as their apostle.

So he turned back the Kabaa to pray, claiming God ordered the change.

Muslims are asked to perform a pilgrimmage at least once in their life to this site, after which their sins are forgiven.

It is an arduous and hard journey even now.

Much of the ritual at the Kabaa is identical to the ritual in pagan arabia.
However it is given a fresh lease on life in the new faith.

Circumambulation is said to mirror the circumambulation of the angels in heaven.

So yes, many muslims do pray to the kabaa

[Songbird]

Wrong. Keep spreading misinformation and you'll have to find other ways of entertaining yourself.

Don't speak about Islam unless you're well versed in the subject. Understood?

[Songbird]

So yes, many muslims do pray to the kabaa
And you wonder why non-Muslims get it so wrong when we have you 'teaching' us Islam.

Muslims pray to Allah swt.

[Simoneus]

Wrong. Keep spreading misinformation and you'll have to find other ways of entertaining yourself.

Don't speak about Islam unless you're well versed in the subject. Understood?


Are you talking to me? what is wrong with what I said? You might not worship the kabaa, but many mistaken muslims do!

[Songbird]

You talk so much rubbish.

So many? Show me your stats then.

And if you're going to pose as a Muslim here, try a bit harder.

[Songbird]

Allah asks all muslims to pray towards the Kabaa.

According to islamic legends

According to what?

No Muslim speaks in this way.

You're so skating on thin ice mate.

[Simoneus]

You talk so much rubbish.

So many? Show me your stats then.

And if you're going to pose as a Muslim here, try a bit harder.

I was a muslim for 12 years, I apostated 2 years ago.

The rituals of the Hajj are identical to the ones performed by pagan arabs, in all my time I have never seen proof of their divine origin,except the mumblings of imams of old, and some ahadith.
Not even the Quran speaks of these rituals!

[Songbird]

Goodbye Simoneous.

I hope you enjoyed what little time you spent here.

[GothiKa]

Yet in the early part of the revelation, the muslims turned to Jerusalem to pray.

This was because the jews of Medinah turned to Jerusalem.

Nah! It was because the Kabaah was filled with idols.

As for the Jews, they regularly paid homage to the Kabaah before it was filled with idols(ibn ishaq)

However, the jews rejected Mohammed as their apostle.

They rejected him for his race, not Prophethood. Many believed in him.


Much of the ritual at the Kabaa is identical to the ritual in pagan arabia.
However it is given a fresh lease on life in the new faith.

Nope!

Circumambulation is said to mirror the circumambulation of the angels in heaven.


Really? please show me a pertinent hadith

So yes, many muslims do pray to the kabaa

Moron!

[Songbird]

Akhi, moron doesn't even quite cover it.

The mods are aware of who this person is.

[stellared]

you all seem terified at the information Simoneous is sharing with us. do you really think if you close your eyes for long enough it will stop existing!

[Simoneus]

I didn't say that ALL muslims pray to the kabba. I said many do (mistakenly)

why are you being so rude to call me a moron, we should discuss these things logically without resorting to name calling

[Simoneus]

look here for circumambulation

http://al-islam.org/glorious_quran/17.htm

Ka’bah, the: The Holy focal point representing the Oneness of Allah and his Islam. There are indications that it was first built by The Prophet Adam (PBUH). But it is certain that its construction goes back at least to the time of The Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT). After the establishment of truth of the Unity of Allah by The Prophet Abraham (PBUH), people gradually fell into idol worship again for many gener*ations until the time of Muhammad (SA), when the Kacbah was cleared of idols, and the worship of One True Allah was re‑established. Muslims, worldwide, turn to the Kacbah when praying, as a convergence to the Oneness of Allah and the Unity of His din. The Kacbah is also a focal point for the unity of Muslims when they gather together during the pilgrimage. The rite of circumambulation around the Kacbah emulates the circumambulation of angels around the Throne of Allah in the Heavens.

[GothiKa]

"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

Is David(as) guilty of Idol worship?


hadith for circumambulation

http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/hit...ng=eng&ID=3108 (http://hadith.al-islam.com/bayan/hits.asp?Lang=eng&ID=3108)


Thanks, but I don't have the time to go through all of them. Could you please give me the number of the specific hadith in question?

[GothiKa]

look here for circumambulation

http://al-islam.org/glorious_quran/17.htm

Ka’bah, the: The Holy focal point representing the Oneness of Allah and his Islam. There are indications that it was first built by The Prophet Adam (PBUH). But it is certain that its construction goes back at least to the time of The Prophet Abraham and his son Ishmael (PBUT). After the establishment of truth of the Unity of Allah by The Prophet Abraham (PBUH), people gradually fell into idol worship again for many gener*ations until the time of Muhammad (SA), when the Kacbah was cleared of idols, and the worship of One True Allah was re‑established. Muslims, worldwide, turn to the Kacbah when praying, as a convergence to the Oneness of Allah and the Unity of His din. The Kacbah is also a focal point for the unity of Muslims when they gather together during the pilgrimage. The rite of circumambulation around the Kacbah emulates the circumambulation of angels around the Throne of Allah in the Heavens.

al-islam.org is a shia website

[Simoneus]

"I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

Is David(as) guilty of Idol worship?



Thanks, but I don't have the time to go through all of them. Could you please give me the number of the specific hadith in question?


I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

I notice that you emboldened 'bow down' but conveniently ignored the next 5 words that tell us what he was actually praising.

[Simoneus]

theres alot of significance to the kaaba. first is that it is the first house in the world no? it was rebuilt by prophet ibrahim AS (who christians call abraham incase you're wondering). around the kaaba is where ibrahim's AS wife ( i forgot her name) was looking desperately for water to give to her son. thats when jibrael AS (who christians call gabriel incase you're wondering) struck some stone and water gushed out. that water is the ZAM ZAM water which every muslim drinks everyyear when in hajj. when we do hajj, we recreate the same things ibrahim's AS wife went through.

we face the kaaba everytime we pray because its a sign of unity. imagine if people were praying one infront of the other, facing each other. it would be hectic. no direction. no uniformity. people would get into arguements over who's position is right. but look how simple the solution was. just face toward kaaba, qiblah direction.

i always had a question for christians. how come christians don't do any pilgrimage to the kaaba? i mean before islam was even established christians didn't perform pilgrimage there. do the christians not want to see what the hands of ibrahim AS made for allah ta'ala?


I'm sorry, but you FORGET the name of Ibrahims wife (it was Sarah btw) yet you expect us to believe the things you say!!!! nice one.

I'm not nor have ever been a christian by the way, I was born into a Jewish family, got mixed up with the wrong crowd in my late teens and joined their mosque, finally freeing myself two years ago from a twisted religion.

[Cashew]

I know you guys would much prefer to insult each other, but there are a number of other participants in this forum who've tried and tried, without much luck, to have a serious discussion about the Islamic concept of "holiness."

In what little discussion we did have on the topic, we learned that the Kabaa is called "blessed," not "holy," in Arabic.

Clearly, Islam makes an important, and interesting, distinction about such things.

[Torn.Rose]

which "twisted religion" is it that you are refering to?

[Mr ®hizomati©]

ofcourse worshipping the kaaba , the black stone and the pedestal is idoltry. i'd like to ask the non-muslims who think they understand islam, do you see muslims worshipping the kaaba, black stone or the pedestal ?
Exactly! Beautifully put. I think the question would have served debate better if it had asked whether praying to the Kaaba = idol–worship. Obviously worshipping anything other than Allah = idol–worship! LOL.

i mean before islam was even established christians didn't perform pilgrimage there. do the christians not want to see what the hands of ibrahim AS made for allah ta'ala?As a matter of fact, the pagan Arabs used to do Umrah long before the final establishment of Islam. It comes down to following what your ancestors did but forgetting why! So they did these rites in a pagan way. Remember, they still worshipped Allah and considered Allah the High God, but worshipped other idols and prayed to ‘angels’ as intercessors. And yes, Christians from north of Arabia did used to make the Umrah with the Arabs.

[Torn.Rose]

I am absolutely gobsmacked at the statement that Muslims praying toward the Ka’ba is a form of idol worship! How?

I have been a Muslim nearly 2 years and Allah (swt)made it easy for me to start reading Salah almost straight away & never once in all that time have I ever acknowledged, in my salah, that the ka’ba is anything more than a direction!

When the Azaan goes off and it is time to pray, you know the ummah will be joining together in unity..whether you are praying alone in your own house or in jammat it is an amazing feeling to know that everyone is as one. It’s a symbol of oneness and submission. Imagine, we all prayed together but prayed in whichever direction we liked… where would be the unity in that?

I was born into a Christian family but prayer was never a big thing to us as children. It was a matter of putting your hands together before sleep and that was it but with Islam, you have a structure which is irreplaceable, but for people to say that because of it, the ka’ba is used as an idol is absurd. ABSOLUTELY!

[CheifJunior]

this is a good question raised in another thread but i thought it deserved its own poll.
is worshiping the kabba the black stone and the pedastal of Ibraham a form of idol worship?

A stupid person really asking the most dumbest question on the planet. If you cared to find out you really would do some research on this! but clearly you didnt because you really enjoy showing your stupidity on this forum

[GothiKa]

I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 138:2)"

I notice that you emboldened 'bow down' but conveniently ignored the next 5 words that tell us what he was actually praising.

what about it? David(as) is just as guilty of idol worship as Muslims who bow towards the Kaabah but don't even mention it in their prayers, let alone praise it

Nice try

[GothiKa]

Is this idol worship?

[GothiKa]

"It is possible to understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ" (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

It seems that Catholics do worship Mary(as)

[Simoneus]

Is this idol worship?


I'm not a christian, so I don't know. I was a devout muslim for a long time though and know that MANY muslims worship the kabaa, whereas MOST don't

[mouse]

We also say he is Godwe do !!!!!!!!!

[mouse]

Is this idol worship?no....whay off

[Al-ghurabah]

no one worships the kabba or the black stone.. where didi you get taht from???

[Al Qadr]

We dont worship the ka'aba. When we pray we pray in the DIRECTION of the ka'aba.. every muslim does this. So we all pray in the same DIRECTION.
Before we pray we say our intention and it clearly says we are praying to Allah. Not the Ka'aba. I wont bother to vote. Hmph.

[Al Qadr]

I'm not a christian, so I don't know. I was a devout muslim for a long time though and know that MANY muslims worship the kabaa, whereas MOST don't

many worship the ka'aba n then most dont? Thats contradicting each other.

[Torn.Rose]

Simonous...

uv contradicted urself in every sense of the word!

You say that many worship the ka'ba but most dont? no1 does...they pray toward it.

and you say you WAS a devout muslim...how can you have been a devout muslim when a you are debating a fundamental belief ?

[stellared]

I am absolutely gobsmacked at the statement that Muslims praying toward the Ka’ba is a form of idol worship! How?


so if the kabba was destroyed you would not be bothered because you dont worship it yes?

[Torn.Rose]

I'd of course be bothered. It was the 1st house built on earth. It is where Muslims go to perform their pilgrimage. they go to it and feel close to Allah.
It is a symbol of Islam and so yeh i would be gutted if it was destroyed but it isnt a thing to which we worship. If it wasnt there(as in it was destroyed...which i hope doesnt happen) then im sure muslims would still pray in that way cuz of its symbolism.

But I pray to Allah and worship him alone...

La ilaha ilillah... i hope thats right!

[MMS]

so if the kabba was destroyed you would not be bothered because you dont worship it yes?

welll :rubeyes:

[Torn.Rose]

Yeh exactly....it would be gutting!

[Mr ®hizomati©]

so if the kabba was destroyed you would not be bothered because you dont worship it yes?Planning on bombing it soon…?

[Simoneus]

'many do but most don't' is NOT a contradictory statement

for example (some made up numbers ahead) 1 million muslims is MANY but is NOT MOST muslims.

[Refugee]

:salams

a hindu dude asked this q to dr zakir naik once

and he goes its about collectively havin the muslims pray towards sumt to emphasise unity... cos unity is oh so important in islam POW! :D

cos unity us oh so important in islam prisoner of war :scratch: - that doesnt make senses RaNd0m

[Simoneus]

Why are some people on here resorting to calling people idiots/morons/stupid ?

Are we not able to discuss this like adults?

[MMS]

Why are some people on here resorting to calling people idiots/morons/stupid ?

Are we not able to discuss this like adults?

its a stupid question its like saying well ur mother isnt god so you wont mind if i kill her :rolleyes: or your house isnt a mosque so u wont mind if i blow it up :wacko:

[Torn.Rose]

Why are some people on here resorting to calling people idiots/morons/stupid ?

Are we not able to discuss this like adults?


its not about calling people names...but when someone is expressing there point but you still choose to question it anyway....it frustrating. You say u were devout yeh?... so why disagree with the fact that Muslims DO NOT worship the ka'ba? is that hard to grasp?

[Simoneus]

its not about calling people names...but when someone is expressing there point but you still choose to question it anyway....it frustrating. You say u were devout yeh?... so why disagree with the fact that Muslims DO NOT worship the ka'ba? is that hard to grasp?


I know muslims who do worship the kabaa. I believe that most don't (including yourself and other members of this forum) but many muslims do.

[.: Anna :.]

Simoneus I dont think you were ever Muslim and nor do I actually believe you know Muslims who worship the Kaba. What are you, stellared's little friend or something?
This topic is pathetic.

[muslim_sis]

didnt bother to read the whole thread ... but we are PRAYING TO ALLAH , we are NOT praying to the kabah , thats the direction we face in order to worship allah through our prayer!

the kabah is sacred as it is the house of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala

any muslim would know that !

and what kind of topic is this anyway !?

[Torn.Rose]

^^^Most definately!

I agree with Anna too...if you were a muslim and as devout as you say u were then surely it would have been your job to try and talk to these people and put them right as worshippin the ka'ba not Islamic!

[Al Qadr]

Oh yea and another thing. When Jews pray to the wailing wall is that called Idol worshipping? Or when Christians say a prayer to the statue of Jesus on a cross, isnt that idol worshipping?

[Torn.Rose]

Oh yea and another thing. When Jews pray to the wailing wall is that called Idol worshipping? Or when Christians say a prayer to the statue of Jesus on a cross, isnt that idol worshipping?

Very good point!!

Its not tho is it because they only see it as a symbol!!

but 4 some reason when muslims position themselves in a particular way to face the Ka'ba which is just as much a symbol of Islam as the cross is to christians...it is seen as idol worship.

[Al Qadr]

Very good point!!

Its not tho is it because they only see it as a symbol!!

but 4 some reason when muslims position themselves in a particular way to face the Ka'ba which is just as much a symbol of Islam as the cross is to christians...it is seen as idol worship.

Exaclty my point. Hypocrisy alert (what's new!)

[GothiKa]

I'm not a christian, so I don't know. I was a devout muslim for a long time though and know that MANY muslims worship the kabaa, whereas MOST don't

you liar! Just a few hours ago your profile said that you were a Christian. Now you changed it to NIL!!!!

[Torn.Rose]

Exaclty my point. Hypocrisy alert (what's new!)



Yeh and theres no need for it. Just because Muslims do something which is also done by other religions as well as in Islam...it is deemed as wrong yet there is no mention that Christians or Jews are guilty of idol worship 2!

What makes it even worse, is that in christianity, some sects eg catholics are guilty of this as they do pray to mary.

[GothiKa]

so if the kabba was destroyed you would not be bothered because you dont worship it yes?

it's going to be destroyed anyways according to one of Muhammad's prophecies. besides, it was damaged many times prior to Islam

[MMS]

you liar! Just a few hours ago your profile said that you were a Christian. Now you changed it to NIL!!!!

hehe i bet hes from f******eedom those guys always register on forums pretending to be ex-muslims :rolleyes:

[shaktionefree]

Oh yea and another thing. When Jews pray to the wailing wall is that called Idol worshipping? Or when Christians say a prayer to the statue of Jesus on a cross, isnt that idol worshipping?

I would say no to the first one and yes to the second two.

I know lot's of Christians who see the crucifix's and Icons as having special properties...... which I would call Idol worshiping.

The wailing wall is another matter...... that is where the Jews can go to pray at the original temple, what remains of it before Islam destroyed it and built the dome of the rock......

So is the dome of the rock of any importance to Islam? Why?

[pinky]

Oh yea and another thing. When Jews pray to the wailing wall is that called Idol worshipping?

The correct terminology is 'when Jews pray AT the western wall', not 'to the western wall'. The Muslims of my acquaintance say a similar thing about praying in the direction of Mekka or in the presence of the Kabah. Jews pray in the direction of Jerusalem. Neither constitutes idol worship except maybe by a misguided few who don't know/are ignorant of the differences.

[GothiKa]

The wailing wall is another matter...... that is where the Jews can go to pray at the original temple, what remains of it before Islam destroyed it and built the dome of the rock......

By the time Muslims got there, the temple was already destroyed. thanks for spreading misinformation

[mouse]

The correct terminology is 'when Jews pray AT the western wall', not 'to the western wall'. The Muslims of my acquaintance say a similar thing about praying in the direction of Mekka or in the presence of the Kabah. Jews pray in the direction of Jerusalem. Neither constitutes idol worship except maybe by a misguided few who don't know/are ignorant of the differences. and christians pray AT and not to also....also in all christian churchs[roman catholic and prodestant pray facing east...i dont know about other so called christian sects

[Simoneus]

By the time Muslims got there, the temple was already destroyed. thanks for spreading misinformation

it was the muslims who destroyed it, like they destroyed the tree

[tricky]

By the time Muslims got there, the temple was already destroyed. thanks for spreading misinformation

They still shouldn't have built a mosque on someone elses holy temple though. Don't you think that's wrong?

[GothiKa]

why not? that place is just as holy to Muslims as it is to Jews and Christians.
How come the latter did not rebuild the temple prior to the arrival of Muslims? In fact, when Umar(ra) got there it was covered with rubbish.

[Torn.Rose]

it was the muslims who destroyed it, like they destroyed the tree

What are you ... seriously? you absolutely kill it!
I duno what Islam u were following but I doubt it was the same as the others in this forum... How did muslims destroy the tree?

Im confused:confused:

[mouse]

why not? that place is just as holy to Muslims as it is to Jews and Christians.
How come the latter did not rebuild the temple prior to the arrival of Muslims? In fact, when Umar(ra) got there it was covered with rubbish.it was holy to the jews well in advance of muslims....as was jeruselem to christians..
the fact that the romans had destroyed a holy place and the jewish people had not because of the conditions of the time...is no excuse for taking over a holy place

[Songbird]

Why are some people on here resorting to calling people idiots/morons/stupid ?

Are we not able to discuss this like adults?
Says he who slurs Islam by calling it a "twisted religion".

And you call yourself an adult?

[GothiKa]

it was holy to the jews well in advance of muslims....as was jeruselem to christians..
the fact that the romans had destroyed a holy place and the jewish people had not because of the conditions of the time...is no excuse for taking over a holy place

so why couldnt the Jews and Christians simply rebuild the temple prior to the arrival of Muslims? why leave it for rubbish? it seems that when the Muslims took over, all of a sudden the site became extremely important.

[GothiKa]

it was the muslims who destroyed it, like they destroyed the tree

You are lying once again.

When the Arabs conquered Jerusalem they found the Temple Mount abandoned and filled with refuse. The abandonment of the Temple site was in accordance with Jesus' prophecy that not a stone would be left standing on another. `Umar ordered it cleaned and performed a prayer there
"Dome Of The Rock" in C. Glassé, The Concise Encyclopaedia Of Islam, 1989, Stacey International: London, p. 102.


Ever since the Persian occupation, when the Jews had resumed worship on the platform, the Christians had used the place as the city rubbish dump. When `Umar reached the old ruined gates of the Temple, says the Muslim historian Mujir al-Din, he was horrified to see the filth, "which was then all about the holy sanctuary, had settled on the steps of the gates so that it even came out into the streets in which the gate opened, and it had accumulated so greatly as almost to reach up the ceiling of the gateway." The only way to get up to the platform was to crawl on hands and knees. Sophronius went first and the Muslims struggled up behind. When they arrived at the top, the Muslims must have gazed appalled at the vast and desolate expanse of Herod's platform, still covered with piles of fallen masonry and garbage
K. Armstrong, Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths, 1997, Ballantine Books: New York, p. 229.

[mouse]

so why couldnt the Jews and Christians simply rebuild the temple prior to the arrival of Muslims? why leave it for rubbish? it seems that when the Muslims took over, all of a sudden the site became extremely important.it had and was holy prior to the arivals...when you have been under ocupation it takes a while to get back on track

[GothiKa]

it had and was holy prior to the arivals...when you have been under ocupation it takes a while to get back on track

so when Jerusalem was under Christian occupation why didnt the King simply restore the Temple? Do remember that it had remained destroyed for hundreds of years prior to the Muslim conquest.

[Makki]

so when Jerusalem was under Christian occupation why didnt the King simply restore the Temple? Do remember that it had remained destroyed for hundreds of years prior to the Muslim conquest.

damn straight! :up:

[Maureen]

theres alot of significance to the kaaba. first is that it is the first house in the world no? it was rebuilt by prophet ibrahim AS (who christians call abraham incase you're wondering). around the kaaba is where ibrahim's AS wife ( i forgot her name) was looking desperately for water to give to her son. thats when jibrael AS (who christians call gabriel incase you're wondering) struck some stone and water gushed out. that water is the ZAM ZAM water which every muslim drinks everyyear when in hajj. when we do hajj, we recreate the same things ibrahim's AS wife went through.

we face the kaaba everytime we pray because its a sign of unity. imagine if people were praying one infront of the other, facing each other. it would be hectic. no direction. no uniformity. people would get into arguements over who's position is right. but look how simple the solution was. just face toward kaaba, qiblah direction.

i always had a question for christians. how come christians don't do any pilgrimage to the kaaba? i mean before islam was even established christians didn't perform pilgrimage there. do the christians not want to see what the hands of ibrahim AS made for allah ta'ala?
Christians would have no obvious motive for going to do a pilgrimage to the kaaba, except as an historical interest. The kaaba was never mentioned by Jesus.

[Al-Irhaab]

I am very tired and sick just now but in terms of this:


The answer to this for the past..... many, many years is that it is suicide for a christian to attempt to enter Mecca? No? Am I wrong?

Surely the Christians, Coptics, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Etc.... have cause to make such a pigrimage...... Thing is on ly Muslims can do so under wahabi controll.


Maybe one day.


By the way.... I know of many Christians who do worship the Cross, just as many Muslims do worship the Kabbah and the black stone. Allot can get lost in translation.

no muslim worships the kaaba either u are confused or a liar

and it is forbidden in islam for non muslims to reside in al haramain, or jazeeratal arabbiyyah at all in fact

[mouse]

so when Jerusalem was under Christian occupation why didnt the King simply restore the Temple? Do remember that it had remained destroyed for hundreds of years prior to the Muslim conquest.why would christians of the time build a temple for the jewish religion....??:rubeyes:

[GothiKa]

so that site is not Holy to the Christians?

[mouse]

so that site is not Holy to the Christians?not as far as i am aware....just the othe places ie golgotha,the churches of the nativity, tomb of the resurection and jeruselem in general ie the way of the cross etc etc