View Full Version : she lost her chastity..
concerned sis
25-06-06, 12:12 PM
Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh,
I have a freind..and shes really gone up the wall this time.
she nevr used to be like this. i mean..shes prayed..and shes also got a 'status'. meaning an alima.
i know that for the last few years she used to GO OUT with lads..u know it was a 'normal' thing. i mean we all did it. but u leave that life behind. she didnt. and now its gone worse.
she used to sneak lads in to her house..party..blah blah blah. her bf used to come into her room at night. dont ask me how but she did it. she lay down rules that nor can her mum, dad, bros can enter her room.
so its come to a point where she is really serious with this guy. he has a beard n he met her thru a 'mate'..it was only a matter of 2 months n they decided they wanna get married..
she also told me that she piks him up from work, as well as his sis, n that.
i was shoked when she told me she 'slept' with him. she wasnt married..she didnt take protection. she had to take a test. n thnk allah she werent positive..but..i feel he isnt good fr her.
i mean what man? that loves a girl..wud take her chastity? wheres the respect? he even told her to stay away from another mate of myn cos he thinks she fancies him..but she doesnt. he also..asked her for her email addy..she told him to **** off. she doesnt want to tell my mate ..cos shell just get angry n go off on one.
see what i dont get is..he tells her to stay away from us..but hes done a bad thing himself. he sneaks into her house..n he is practically all over her at night whilst her parents are sleepin, the thought makes me sik. shes lost her virginity. shes not solid on her marraige with him yet..n what will happen of her? i mean she thinks the world of him. whatevr her tells her to do shell do it. she thinks sun shines wherever he goes. like he is practically the 'rigght' one..but thats him CONVINCING her.
it makes me sad..cos her mum is really upset..n she thinks we have something to do with this..n that we are covering for her. we want to tell her mum..but this mate is verry rebelious..even if her mum confronts her..she doesnt care..shell go an extra mile to be rebelious.
im really worried about her. shes gona end up hurting herself..n he may just dump her. when its too late. i wanna tel her to stop al this..but she wil only NOT talk to me.
i seriously dont know what to do. shes a mate of mine. n i feel i cant do anything for her. it saddens me..that shes ruined evrything for herself.
but i just want her to see whats best for her. how do i go about this?
JazakAllahu Khairan wa jaza.
umm umayr
26-06-06, 12:49 PM
if you've adviced her and she doesnt listen thats her loss , you've done your part
it is HARAM to have male 'friends' anyway, let alone all that
the Prophet (saw) said: you are the company of what you keep
and also said: a man will be raised on the day of judgement with his companions of the dunya (paraphrased)
meaning however your friends are you'll become like them, so to not be in the same boat as her on DOJ, stay away from her filah
jzk...
islamirama
26-06-06, 01:47 PM
Wa'alaikum as'salaam wr wb
She has an aliima status and she parties and sneaks boys in her room? and she is rebellious towards her parents. What good is that alima course, seems like she just memorized or studied some text to pass it and get a certificate otherwise she's no alima. What good is knowledge if you can't act upon it. She is more in sin then someone average because she has the knowledge and she forsaked it for her own desires and pleasures. Why are you blaming the guy for ruining her life. She ruined it herself. He should dump her so she would learn a lesson fromt his. They both are zinai (fornicators) and both should reprent and break away from each other. If they have any feelings for each other then go thru the paper channels (parents) and get married. I don't feel sorry for her one bit.
As for you, you are an accomplish to this sin and you will be held accountable for it on J-day. What have you done to stop this sin from happening, what kind of a friend are you? What do you care for more, her feelings or her chastity (not that it matters anymore). You should advise her to dump him and repent and have him repent and go to her parents for her hand if he's serious. Tell her parents if she doesn't listen, tell his parents to keep him away from her. Beard, hijab and alima certificates are meaningless with such actions of the sinners. If she doesn't listen then break away from her, you shouldn't be friends with such bad people.
Khadhijah
28-06-06, 08:43 AM
As for you, you are an accomplish to this sin and you will be held accountable for it on J-day. What have you done to stop this sin from happening, what kind of a friend are you? What do you care for more, her feelings or her chastity (not that it matters anymore).
Brother thats a bit harsh and if you re-read her post, she has and is doing something about it.
Sister, like the brother said, what good is there in being an alima if one breaches the limits set by Allah (SWT)?
From what you said about her, it looks like the only way that she will get her senses back is if she falls really hard. I know you said that she would rebel an extra mile if her parents knew but you gotta let them know. It is happening right under their noses. AstagfiruLaah. Simply telling her that he is not good for her would not make her stop, trust me. Remind her of Allah's wrath and punishement on one who commits zinaa, if that dont move her then you need to let her parents know ASAP. You cant help her alone, you need to get her parents involved especially her father because that dude needs to be taught a lesson too.
Insha'Allah i hope it works out for the better.
Salman Al-Farsi
28-06-06, 01:15 PM
On top of what everyone else has said. If nothing works and she carries on, you must break your ties with her. The reason for this is that, if she is a knowledgeable person and knows what she is doing is haram and even after recieving your advice, she is now a Fasiqah. You should not remain friends with her or associate with her because we should not make corrupt people as our friends, furthermore its not good for your own credibility.
islamirama
28-06-06, 02:03 PM
Brother thats a bit harsh and if you re-read her post, she has and is doing something about it.
Sister, like the brother said, what good is there in being an alima if one breaches the limits set by Allah (SWT)?
From what you said about her, it looks like the only way that she will get her senses back is if she falls really hard. I know you said that she would rebel an extra mile if her parents knew but you gotta let them know. It is happening right under their noses. AstagfiruLaah. Simply telling her that he is not good for her would not make her stop, trust me. Remind her of Allah's wrath and punishement on one who commits zinaa, if that dont move her then you need to let her parents know ASAP. You cant help her alone, you need to get her parents involved especially her father because that dude needs to be taught a lesson too.
Insha'Allah i hope it works out for the better.
Hell is a lot harsher then my words. I would rather have someone literally beat some sense into me than having to realize the fruits of my actions in jahanaam when its too late. This alima is getting more sin then the average Muslim because she has the knowledge and she is rejecting that by going against it. It's like she is mocking Allah and His message by so blatantly going against it. If she's going to rebel against her parents for trying to keep her away from haraam then she her knowledge indeed is a waste. She should by dumped by the guy and told off so she can feel cheap for being used for her body only and then dumped like yesterdays news. Maybe it'll knocked some sense into her, if not then atleast this haraam relationship will end.
As for the friend, Islam is clear on what she has to do also. Prophet *S* said if you see wrong then stop it with your HAND and if you cannot then your mouth and if you cannot then dislike it in your heart and know that it is wrong and that is the weakest of emaan. If she can't stop her by herself then get her and his parents involved. A true friend wouldn't let her friend go to hell if she can help it. If she can't do anything then she needs to change her friends and not associate with this sinner who has no fear of Allah.
You cant help her alone, you need to get her parents involved especially her father because that dude needs to be taught a lesson too.
What can the father say to the guy when her own daughter is sneaking the guy into her bedroom for some sex, and not just one guy but according to the post used to sneak lads in for a party. And what kind of parents are they have to obey their own daughter and not go into her room at all. I say the girl needs a lesson taught more because she clearly is more at fault. She set rules so no family member can enter her room, she sneaked guys in, she is sneaking this guy in her own room for sex, she's doing all the actoin. The guy will go with it because she has given him opportunity.
If the father goes to the guy, the guy will just say "Who are you to talk to me, go control your girl first, i ddin't invite her to my room but she invited me"
islamirama
28-06-06, 02:30 PM
Brother thats a bit harsh and if you re-read her post, she has and is doing something about it.
Sister, like the brother said, what good is there in being an alima if one breaches the limits set by Allah (SWT)?
From what you said about her, it looks like the only way that she will get her senses back is if she falls really hard. I know you said that she would rebel an extra mile if her parents knew but you gotta let them know. It is happening right under their noses. AstagfiruLaah. Simply telling her that he is not good for her would not make her stop, trust me. Remind her of Allah's wrath and punishement on one who commits zinaa, if that dont move her then you need to let her parents know ASAP. You cant help her alone, you need to get her parents involved especially her father because that dude needs to be taught a lesson too.
Insha'Allah i hope it works out for the better.
Hell is a lot harsher then my words. I would rather have someone literally beat some sense into me than having to realize the fruits of my actions in jahanaam when its too late. This alima is getting more sin then the average Muslim because she has the knowledge and she is rejecting that by going against it. It's like she is mocking Allah and His message by so blatantly going against it. If she's going to rebel against her parents for trying to keep her away from haraam then she her knowledge indeed is a waste. She should by dumped by the guy and told off so she can feel cheap for being used for her body only and then dumped like yesterdays news. Maybe it'll knocked some sense into her, if not then atleast this haraam relationship will end.
As for the friend, Islam is clear on what she has to do also. Prophet *S* said if you see wrong then stop it with your HAND and if you cannot then your mouth and if you cannot then dislike it in your heart and know that it is wrong and that is the weakest of emaan. If she can't stop her by herself then get her and his parents involved. A true friend wouldn't let her friend go to hell if she can help it. If she can't do anything then she needs to change her friends and not associate with this sinner who has no fear of Allah.
You cant help her alone, you need to get her parents involved especially her father because that dude needs to be taught a lesson too.
What can the father say to the guy when her own daughter is sneaking the guy into her bedroom for some sex, and not just one guy but according to the post used to sneak lads in for a party. And what kind of parents are they have to obey their own daughter and not go into her room at all. I say the girl needs a lesson taught more because she clearly is more at fault. She set rules so no family member can enter her room, she sneaked guys in, she is sneaking this guy in her own room for sex, she's doing all the actoin. The guy will go with it because she has given him opportunity.
If the father goes to the guy, the guy will just say "Who are you to talk to me, go control your girl first, i ddin't invite her to my room but she invited me"
Al Qadr
28-06-06, 02:37 PM
:S thats messed up. she should have Taqwa... n so should the bearded brother. I've got a friend too, she wears hijaab, prays 5 times... but she met this man who is 11 years older than her and has 2 kids and is sepereated on the net.. she continued to meet him for a year... she said they have done everything apart from intercourse :vomit: but the thing is, she didnt even eant to marty him..even if she did what she did was wrong... n I told her many times its wrong ect and even stopped talking to her for a bit. But apparently she still misses him... And he would say stuff like "u whore in hijaab" while he meets 3-4 other women, one whom is a 16 yr old non muslim..(the man is around 31). It just makes me sick that people do these things without thinking of the consequences. But these things happen :S
if you done what u can to help and she refuses your help then it'll probably be a good lesson for her when she is dumped, harsh but oh well sometimes its the only way for the person to work it out themselves
Shes blind in her so-called 'love' at the moment, everyone around her can tell her the guy is no good but she's just going to have to work it out for herself.
re.concerned
28-06-06, 05:19 PM
islamirama...jazakAllah for that advice. it was very hurtful.
i have not told her to lose her virginity. i never told her to go out with guys. whilst we left that kind of life behind. she chose to stay with it. i worry about her cos she is a freind. i dont like breaking ties with a mate just becasue she is really bad. i know the hadeeth about 'good n bad company'..but i feel she needs help..shes done damage n its gna get worse.
yeah i get ya sis khadijah.
her mum..i dunno. she already thinks i have a part in it! i dunno..but im scared.
shes gna have to learn the hard way i guess? mm..jazakAllah all of u...
Astaghfirullah.
Seems like they are made for each other...both zani's. Reminds me of that Quranic ayah...:
Surah An Nur (24): Verse 3
“The adulterer-fornicator marries not but an adultress-fornicatress or a mushrikah, and the adultress-fornicatress none marries her except an adultery-fornicator or a Mushrik (and that means the man who agrees to) marry a Mushrika or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer-fornicator or a Mushrik. And the woman who agrees to marry a Muskrik or an adulterer-fornicator then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Montheism).”
Surah An Nur (24): Verse 3
“The adulterer-fornicator marries not but an adultress-fornicatress or a mushrikah, and the adultress-fornicatress none marries her except an adultery-fornicator or a Mushrik (and that means the man who agrees to) marry a Mushrika or a prostitute, then surely he is either an adulterer-fornicator or a Mushrik. And the woman who agrees to marry a Muskrik or an adulterer-fornicator then she is either a prostitute or a Mushrikah. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Islamic Montheism).”
They were made for each other!..Astaghfirullah.
SoulAsylum
28-06-06, 10:07 PM
No dont disaccosiate from her immediatley. Explain to her this guy is no good. Tell her in a hint way what he said about your mate. Make her see that this guys just using her and like you say ending up dumping her.
First things first; A person is not an Alim unless they are an A'mil. If you dont practice what you know then you are Munafiq. If you preach and you dont practice, then you are a Fatin. We must be careful what titles we give to people.
If this person you are talking about is commiting all those sins; she needs to stop, make Tawba, and never turn to such practices again. If you havent told her this before, put it to her simply, that she needs to change or she will go to Ja'hanam, being angry at her parents does not give her reason to commit haram.
A person is as good as their deeds. If she is commiting Zina and other sins, and so is this man she wants to marry then clearly they are both as their actions suggest.
For you as someone who knows what she is doing, you need to step away from such company, because bad company leads to bad. If you really want to help her, then you can tell her Masooleen(those responsible for her), that she isnt all that she seems. It seems very strange some of the arrangements she has with her family. But they do have the right to know if people are going in and out through a window in their house.
Final note, it is sad to see some parents who dont know how to be parents, think that by sending the child to Madrasah, that the Mudariseen can give the child proper parenthood.
Al-ghurabah
29-06-06, 09:57 AM
like many people here said.. if you have advised her three times not to do haram then your job is done.. and she seems to be knoegable enough to know right from wrong.. its shaytan who doesthis.. so best not to stay with a person like this as muslims we should choose the best of friedns best in imaan and islam... do not loose contact but dont stay with her as the yshaytan will try to lead you astray to..
may allah guide us all inshallah
Na'eemah
29-06-06, 01:38 PM
I think you should tell her mother...well she is going to find out one day isnt she? And inshaAllah teh mother will be able to put a stop to this appalling behaviour
She is an alima and he has a beard, they give people like us a bad name..no wonder people say "hejabis are the worst":spunch: :mad:
I've always felt that a lot of these 'aalimah' courses are taught in parrot fashion, with no bearing on reality. I've met quite a few 'aalimahs', and have found and have been surprised at my findings (though of course there are a few who understand and are pious-maybe just a general trend in the ummah then?) that only a little of what they learn has affected their hearts. Truly hidaayah is from Allah, no matter how many aalim or aalimah courses one may have done. May Allah protect us all ameen. Also I agree with the above advice given by brothers and sisters, mashAllah.
i know that for the last few years she used to GO OUT with lads..u know it was a 'normal' thing. i mean we all did it. but u leave that life behind. she didnt. and now its gone worse.
Astugfirullah!
You're kidding right? Are you seriously suggesting that all girls GO OUT with lads when they are younger and then they leave that life behind???
I am a lad! I went to school, college, and university in the uk. I just turned 28. I was born in the uk and I NEVER went out with any girl. I actually used to cross over the road if there was a girl headed my way, I used to change my seat in class if a girl came and sat next to me, I used to avoid girls at all costs, and I would only talk to a girl if I was forced into a project group which I didn't want to be in. And most of the time I was able to change my project group! And all this before I became a practicing muslim around 2 or 3 years ago!!!
Now I am looking for a marriage partner from the UK and I am seriously conserned that who ever I find may have gone out with a lad at some point in her life!
So PLEASE tell me that not all girls in the UK are like what you are portraying them to be. I have not read your post fully and have not read the replies, but I find it hard to believe that all sisters in this forum have been out with a boy at some point in their life who is not their mehram!
I find this seriously disturbing!!!! that the original poster can say "WE ALL DID IT"!!!!!!!
So ANY sister who is reading this, PLEASE prove the original poster wrong!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 08:25 PM
Nami, no-one can speak for all the women in the UK. I think she's speaking for the people she knew, not everyone. Its not even true for all non-Muslim women in the UK, and certainly is not true of Muslim women, even those that were not practicing at some stage in their life.
However it is the case that SOME sisters have been misguided in the past and if they have repented sincerely, or if they are revert sisters who have come to Islam since then, we should not stand judgment on any Muslim for what they did before they repented or before they came to Islam
Nami, no-one can speak for all the women in the UK. I think she's speaking for the people she knew, not everyone. Its not even true for all non-Muslim women in the UK, and certainly is not true of Muslim women, even those that were not practicing at some stage in their life.
However it is the case that SOME sisters have been misguided in the past and if they have repented sincerely, or if they are revert sisters who have come to Islam since then, we should not stand judgment on any Muslim for what they did before they repented or before they came to Islam
I am not concerned about that, what I am concerned about is how the original poster made it sound as if it is the "norm" for girls to do that when they are younger, and then to change their ways when they get older!!! She is not setting a good example for all the younger viewers in this forum. I would hate to think that they may feel that it might be ok for us to go out with the opposite sex as long as we change our ways in the future!!!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 08:46 PM
Its the norm in western non Muslim culture for men and women to date, have sexual relationships and so on before later settling down with someone for a more secure relationship (usually getting married but not always)
unfortunately some Muslims and people from Muslim families have been influenced by this aspect of western culture, however I would not say that its the norm for Muslims in the west to have had such a past, or that it is a normal attitude amongst young Muslims that they will play the field for a bit and then settle down later. Alhamdulillah.
islamirama
29-06-06, 08:50 PM
islamirama...jazakAllah for that advice. it was very hurtful.
i have not told her to lose her virginity. i never told her to go out with guys. whilst we left that kind of life behind. she chose to stay with it. i worry about her cos she is a freind. i dont like breaking ties with a mate just becasue she is really bad. i know the hadeeth about 'good n bad company'..but i feel she needs help..shes done damage n its gna get worse.
yeah i get ya sis khadijah.
her mum..i dunno. she already thinks i have a part in it! i dunno..but im scared.
shes gna have to learn the hard way i guess? mm..jazakAllah all of u...
You're welcome. If only you could pass this "hurtful" message to fornicator in and be able to pass the feeling to her as well. Zina is a major sin, major sins are a great path to hellfire. You're job is to advise her and stop her (remember hadith about stoping evil with a hand) if you can't stop her then tell her mahrams so they can stop her, otherwise YOU will be well accountable on J-Day for not doing all you could. You're friendship to her should not be above your islamic duty to do the right thing.
And yes, such hijabis and bearded guys do give rest of the ummah a bad name. Because of them many of us now believe there's no good sister (or bro) left to marry these days. Hijaab is just the outside appearance, inside them there is no difference between them and the kuffars. They both are slaves of their desires.
If you can't stop them then leave them, unless shaytan lead you to that path as well.
Its the norm in western non Muslim culture for men and women to date, have sexual relationships and so on before later settling down with someone for a more secure relationship (usually getting married but not always)
unfortunately some Muslims and people from Muslim families have been influenced by this aspect of western culture, however I would not say that its the norm for Muslims in the west to have had such a past, or that it is a normal attitude amongst young Muslims that they will play the field for a bit and then settle down later. Alhamdulillah.
I dont know if you are a sister or a brother, but I just want at least 1 sister in this WHOLE forum who was born in the UK to say that she has never done that in the past! If no sister in this forum can honestly say that, then I don't know what to say!
If at least 1 sister here can say this truthfully, then that can only mean there are more decent sisters in the UK!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 09:23 PM
Nami,
I am a sister who reverted to Islam three and a half years ago. It is not appropriate for me to say what I did or did not do before reverting to Islam.
When we come to Islam ALL our sins from before we came to Islam are forgiven by Allah. (ALHAMDULILLAH) Everyone sins (whether a revert or "born" Muslim), and I'm not going to tell you or anyone else the nature of any sins I committed, or whether they are the type of sin you are thinking of or other types of sins.
I find it very offensive that you would insist that as a UK sister I have to "prove" myself to you that I did not do something that if I had done Allah would have forgiven me for already. If its good enough for Allah it is good enough for you!! You are not free of sin either but you don't see me telling you or any other brothers or sisters to declare that they did not ever commit a particular sin before they came to Islam, or a particular sin for which they have done tawbah (sincere repentence) for. In fact it is bad manners Islamically to talk about sins which you have done tawbah for or that you did before coming to Islam, except for very specific reasons like helping people who are facing the same sins (e.g. former drug addicts helping drug addicts give up drugs)
I take your point that the attitude in question is not one that should be encouraged and I have stated already that its not the norm among Muslim sisters. I know many sisters (in my local area, where I lived before, and online) and none of us have this attitude!! This part of the forum does not get many people posting here, maybe about ten people a week post here, so don't expect all the sisters on this forum even to be reading your posts, never mind jumping in to defend themselves from unfounded accusations you are making as a result of the way ONE person has phrased something about a mistake she made in the past and one we can assume that she has made tawbah for.
Nami,
I am a sister who reverted to Islam three and a half years ago. It is not appropriate for me to say what I did or did not do before reverting to Islam.
When we come to Islam ALL our sins from before we came to Islam are forgiven by Allah. (ALHAMDULILLAH) Everyone sins (whether a revert or "born" Muslim), and I'm not going to tell you or anyone else the nature of any sins I committed, or whether they are the type of sin you are thinking of or other types of sins.
I find it very offensive that you would insist that as a UK sister I have to "prove" myself to you that I did not do something that if I had done Allah would have forgiven me for already. If its good enough for Allah it is good enough for you!! You are not free of sin either but you don't see me telling you or any other brothers or sisters to declare that they did not ever commit a particular sin before they came to Islam, or a particular sin for which they have done tawbah (sincere repentence) for. In fact it is bad manners Islamically to talk about sins which you have done tawbah for or that you did before coming to Islam, except for very specific reasons like helping people who are facing the same sins (e.g. former drug addicts helping drug addicts give up drugs)
I take your point that the attitude in question is not one that should be encouraged and I have stated already that its not the norm among Muslim sisters. I know many sisters (in my local area, where I lived before, and online) and none of us have this attitude!! This part of the forum does not get many people posting here, maybe about ten people a week post here, so don't expect all the sisters on this forum even to be reading your posts, never mind jumping in to defend themselves from unfounded accusations you are making as a result of the way ONE person has phrased something about a mistake she made in the past and one we can assume that she has made tawbah for.
I don't expect you to tell me your sins. If there is a sister on this forum who has never done what the original poster is suggesting, then I am sure she would be proud of this fact and would easily be able to say it here!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 09:41 PM
Why just sisters in the UK? Why not brothers? I know examples of brothers in the UK doing the same thing and worse.
Why just the UK? Why not other countries? There are Muslims in Muslim countries that do these kinds of things, even in Saudi Arabia where they get lashed for it.
Why just that particular sin? why not alcohol? or idol worship? why not gossiping or backbiting?
The sisters in the UK do NOT have to prove themselves sin free to you. All Muslims answer to ALLAH for their sins.
Your posts ARE judgemental, because you are judging those sisters (and yourself) who have not done one type of sin to be better than another sister who has done that type of sin in the past, even if she has done tawbah or was not Muslim at the time.
You are saying that until someone comes here and says "I never did that particular sin" you will consider that all UK Muslim women have done that sin, or have the attitude you mentioned. It is not enough for me to come here and say I don't know any sisters who have that attitude, you also don't seem to extend this necessity to UK brothers, or Muslims in other countries.
In any case I could go into the sisters area right now and ask all the sisters there to come and declare themselves "sin free" to you - yet I would be very surprised if none of them found your expectation for them to do that to be offensive.
Also you ARE indirectly asking people to reveal their sins because you are assuming that by their silence or them saying "I can't/won't answer that" that they have committed a sin. In other words its impossible for someone who has sinned to answer your challenge without inadvertantly revealing it, and its impossible for someone to refuse to answer without having someone think that they have sinned.
no no no no!!!
if i were u guys..id stop cussing the hijabis n beardos. as far as im concerned..you have a very stereotypical image of hijabis n beardos..they arent perfect they are PRACTising MUSLIMS too..neither are YOU perfect n neither is anybody else. infact tell me one person hu was other than the prophets???
so what if they were 'bad' BEFORE....they may hae changed..as the sister mentioned above..she has changed n mended her ways..she didnt say she slept with men did she? u guys are honestly..!! i wish i cud knock SOME sense into u!!!!
at least these hijabis cover themselves..at least that brother with the beard is growing the beard. they are abiding ONE aspect of islam. not the zina bit. that they will learn their lesson.
i seriously cannot belive the attitude u guys are keeping with the initial post! nami i thought u were better than this. why are u looking for a lass from the uk? dont tell me ure on the forum for that reason. this forum is for 'discussing' thats all nothing else.
will u guys stop cussing the sister n give her advice. she may not be as bright as you. but dont stoop so low that i can brand u as being ignorant.
she took ure advice n yet u still!! cuss the hijabis.
like i sed get over it! there are people out their that werent practising before...and now theyr are practising. you guys are gta go easy.
and inshAllah u will get what u want. just stop cussing.:torture:
Again, I am not asking ANYONE to reveal their sins
Why just sisters in the UK?
Because I live in the UK
Why not brothers?
Becuase I don't want to get married to a brother
Why just the UK?
Because I would rather get married from the UK
Why just that particular sin?
Because that is what this WHOLE post is about.
The sisters in the UK do NOT have to prove themselves sin free to you. All Muslims answer to ALLAH for their sins.
True, and those sisters dont have to say anything. I am only asking the sisters who are happy to say it!
Your posts ARE judgemental, because you are judging those sisters (and yourself) who have not done one type of sin to be better than another sister who has done that type of sin in the past, even if she has done tawbah or was not Muslim at the time.
You are saying that until someone comes here and says "I never did that particular sin" you will consider that all UK Muslim women have done that sin, or have the attitude you mentioned. It is not enough for me to come here and say I don't know any sisters who have that attitude, you also don't seem to extend this necessity to UK brothers, or Muslims in other countries.
Please prove me wrong
In any case I could go into the sisters area right now and ask all the sisters there to come and declare themselves "sin free" to you - yet I would be very surprised if none of them found your expectation for them to do that to be offensive.
I am not interested in "sin free", all I want to know is what I have been asking for in the last few posts.
All I am asking for is for at least 1 sister to not hide the GOOD that she has done, simply to prove the original poster wrong! That is it, plain and simple. I don't think I am asking for too much. I am NOT asking for ANYONE to confess their sins!!!
ur_yusra
29-06-06, 10:03 PM
I dont know if you are a sister or a brother, but I just want at least 1 sister in this WHOLE forum who was born in the UK to say that she has never done that in the past! If no sister in this forum can honestly say that, then I don't know what to say!
If at least 1 sister here can say this truthfully, then that can only mean there are more decent sisters in the UK!
Oh My..
When I read this I thought I had misread.. subhan'Allah..
How sad that you would think so low of your sisters.. astughfirullah..
Sis Dhakiyyah put it rather nicely.. We answer to noone but Allah (swt).. And I or any other sister for that matter are not going to sit here and even bother responding to your question..
Oh My..
When I read this I thought I had misread.. subhan'Allah..
How sad that you would think so low of your sisters.. astughfirullah..
Sis Dhakiyyah put it rather nicely.. We answer to noone but Allah (swt).. And I or any other sister for that matter are not going to sit here and even bother responding to your question..
whooopsy dasisy!!!
i answered..damnn!!!
cudnt hack it..its way oo much n it needed to be sed!!:torture:
I CANNOT believe what I am hearing, I cannot believe that any sister hear would want to hide the good that she has done by refraining from boys in the past!
And yes! I TRULLY believe that a sister who has dated a guy before marriage is NOW WHERE NEAR as good as a sister who waited until marriage!
With the exception of reverts!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 10:28 PM
Nami, I'm reposting the bit i edited into my last post in case you missed it:
"you ARE indirectly asking people to reveal their sins because you are assuming that by their silence or them saying "I can't/won't answer that" that they have committed a sin. In other words its impossible for someone who has sinned to answer your challenge without inadvertantly revealing it, and its impossible for someone to refuse to answer without having someone think that they have sinned."
you may think you are not asking people to "confess" their sins, but by silence it is implied that they have sinned, you say yourself that if one sister says she has not sinned in this way you will "know" that UK Muslim women are not like that - which directly implies that if NO sister replies then you WILL think UK Muslim women are like that.
so for those sisters that HAVE sinned in the past (regardless of whether Allah has forgiven them or not) you are exposing those sins through their silence.
If you want to marry a sister from the UK, why don't you go and find a sister you want to marry and ask HER about HER past, because that is the only UK sister whose past you would have any need to know about, instead of trying to make judgements of all the Muslim women in the UK - there are 1.5 million Muslims in the UK so that makes at least 750,000 Muslim women in the UK - on the basis of what a handful of women say or don't say on a not very active part of a single internet forum.
And even if you meet a sister you want to marry and she has sinned in the past, if Allah has forgiven her so should you.
Also sister dhakiyya made an assumption, and it was an incorrect assumption about me. I never intended to reveal anyones sins indirectly! My intention was simple! To prove the original poster wrong!
All I am asking for is for at least 1 sister to not hide the GOOD that she has done, simply to prove the original poster wrong! That is it, plain and simple. I don't think I am asking for too much. I am NOT asking for ANYONE to confess their sins!!!
All I am asking for is for at least 1 sister to not hide the GOOD that she has done, simply to prove the original poster wrong! That is it, plain and simple. I don't think I am asking for too much. I am NOT asking for ANYONE to confess their sins!!!
plz elaborate i do not understand. jazakAllah.
Nami, I'm reposting the bit i edited into my last post in case you missed it:
"you ARE indirectly asking people to reveal their sins because you are assuming that by their silence or them saying "I can't/won't answer that" that they have committed a sin. In other words its impossible for someone who has sinned to answer your challenge without inadvertantly revealing it, and its impossible for someone to refuse to answer without having someone think that they have sinned."
you may think you are not asking people to "confess" their sins, but by silence it is implied that they have sinned, you say yourself that if one sister says she has not sinned in this way you will "know" that UK Muslim women are not like that - which directly implies that if NO sister replies then you WILL think UK Muslim women are like that.
so for those sisters that HAVE sinned in the past (regardless of whether Allah has forgiven them or not) you are exposing those sins through their silence.
If you want to marry a sister from the UK, why don't you go and find a sister you want to marry and ask HER about HER past, because that is the only UK sister whose past you would have any need to know about, instead of trying to make judgements of all the Muslim women in the UK - there are 1.5 million Muslims in the UK so that makes at least 750,000 Muslim women in the UK - on the basis of what a handful of women say or don't say on a not very active part of a single internet forum.
And even if you meet a sister you want to marry and she has sinned in the past, if Allah has forgiven her so should you.
Those are YOUR assumptions and they are incorrect! I never had that intention to reveal anyones sins indirectly! That is what YOU are assuming! My intention was simple
All I am asking for is for at least 1 sister to not hide the GOOD that she has done, simply to prove the original poster wrong! That not all sisters are like that! That is it, plain and simple. I don't think I am asking for too much. I am NOT asking for ANYONE to confess their sins!!!
plz elaborate i do not understand. jazakAllah.
Ok, the original poster said that EVERYONE has a haraam relationship with the opposite sex and that it is the "norm" And that they change their ways when they get older. She made it sound like it was a perfecly natural and accepted thing to do. I am simply trying to prove her wrong!!!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 10:38 PM
Also sister dhakiyya made an assumption, and it was an incorrect assumption about me. I never intended to reveal anyones sins indirectly! My intention was simple! To prove the original poster wrong!
All I am asking for is for at least 1 sister to not hide the GOOD that she has done, simply to prove the original poster wrong! That is it, plain and simple. I don't think I am asking for too much. I am NOT asking for ANYONE to confess their sins!!!
Your intention may not be to reveal anyones sins. However the actual result of your action is that it does reveal peoples sins, because of the way you are asking the question. Silence = implication that they have sinned, whether you intented it that way or not.
I have already attempted to demonstrate the assumption you made based on one statement from the original poster wrong by pointing out that I don't know one single Muslim sister (and I have lived in three different areas and gone to three different mosques regularly since coming to Islam, plus all the sisters I know online) that has the attitude that you "mess around" when you are young then repent and start being more Islamic when you are older. Quite why that is not enough for you, and you have to have online declarations of chastity as proof instead (even though they could come from anyone, or the person could be lying) is beyond me.
Ok, the original poster said that EVERYONE has a haraam relationship with the opposite sex and that it is the "norm" And that they change their ways when they get older. She made it sound like it was a perfecly natural and accepted thing to do. I am simply trying to prove her wrong!!!
no she did not make it sound perfectly normal.
nor is she saying 'evrybody' does it.
nor is she saying that it is acceptable
if u read properly without too much absorbation in what u WANT to believe..u may find that she regrets it.
it MATTERS that she has changed her ways.
how do u propose to prove her worng ? when she didnt even 'claim' or even 'say' that 'evrybody' does it?
geez..seriously!!
Your intention may not be to reveal anyones sins. However the actual result of your action is that it does reveal peoples sins, because of the way you are asking the question. Silence = implication that they have sinned, whether you intented it that way or not.
Thats how you see it, I see it as silence = they have not read this post!
Ok, the original poster said that EVERYONE has a haraam relationship with the opposite sex and that it is the "norm" And that they change their ways when they get older. She made it sound like it was a perfecly natural and accepted thing to do. I am simply trying to prove her wrong!!!
Why does anyone need to prove anything to you? Just ask the person you want to marry about their past..simple.
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 10:46 PM
I CANNOT believe what I am hearing, I cannot believe that any sister hear would want to hide the good that she has done by refraining from boys in the past!
And yes! I TRULLY believe that a sister who has dated a guy before marriage is NOW WHERE NEAR as good as a sister who waited until marriage!
With the exception of reverts!
you do know about tawbah don't you? Muslims can do tawbah for their sins. if they do tawbah properly Allah forgives them. (one of the conditions of tawbah is to stop the sinning) - you do not have the right to make a judgement on someone who has sinned in the past and done tawbah.
as I have said several times, the attitude of "messing around" with the idea that you'll be more Islamic later in life, is a deplorable attitude, but as I have stated repeatedly it is NOT a common attitude among Muslim women, and I have yet to come across any Muslim women with this attitude.
ibn suleman
29-06-06, 10:49 PM
Salaams
Salamah bin Dinar said, "Hide your good deeds (from the people) just like you hide your evil deeds". (Abu Nu'aym, Bayhaqee)
And in a narration in al-Bayhaqee, "Hide your good deed like
you hide your evil deed, and do not be amazed with your own action, for you do not know whether you are happy or wretched (in the Hereafter)"
True Ikhlaas and sincerity means that good deeds should be kept hidden as well, and we should not reveal our sins either, therefore br nami if you do not get a response, think well of your sisters in Islam, and it's because they have true ikhlaas to Allah, they do not want to reveal their good deeds.
you do know about tawbah don't you? Muslims can do tawbah for their sins. if they do tawbah properly Allah forgives them. (one of the conditions of tawbah is to stop the sinning) - you do not have the right to make a judgement on someone who has sinned in the past and done tawbah.
as I have said several times, the attitude of "messing around" with the idea that you'll be more Islamic later in life, is a deplorable attitude, but as I have stated repeatedly it is NOT a common attitude among Muslim women, and I have yet to come across any Muslim women with this attitude.
The fact that they did tawbah may get them forgiven bit it does NOT remove that MASSIVE sin from the book of sins which I think is called sijeel!
Why does anyone need to prove anything to you? Just ask the person you want to marry about their past..simple.
No one needs to prove any thing to me! I am trying to prove the original poster wrong!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 11:18 PM
No one needs to prove any thing to me! I am trying to prove the original poster wrong!
You are asking Muslim women in the UK to prove themselves to you! Your whole question is asking Muslim women to prove themselves...!
I have posted sufficent evidence to prove the attitude you attribute to the original poster is not commonly held among Muslim women. What is wrong with the evidence I posted?
As for Tawbah - if Allah has forgiven someone for a sin, why do you think you have the right to still judge them for it?
You are asking Muslim women in the UK to prove themselves to you! Your whole question is asking Muslim women to prove themselves...!
I have posted sufficent evidence to prove the attitude you attribute to the original poster is not commonly held among Muslim women. What is wrong with the evidence I posted?
As for Tawbah - if Allah has forgiven someone for a sin, why do you think you have the right to still judge them for it?
No I am not! Maybe it has come out that way, but I want to prove the original poster wrong. And the best way to do that would be for a sister to say so for herself, to show proof to the original poster that there are sisters like that and that not everyone is like her! I am actually trying to show the original poster that she is wrong, and its amazing how everyone is attacking me for standing up for the sisters!
There is nothing wrong with your evidence, but it would be MUCH more convincing for the original poster to hear it from a sister who has never done what the original poster has that, which we believes is the NORM!!. I just dont see why a sister can't say it the same way I said that I have never committed that particular sin! Fairenough I have committed other sins, but my sins are different and will not help explain to the original poster that what she thinks is completely wrong, and me explaining my other sins will not help the young forum members to understand that it is NOT OK and that it is NOT THE NORM to have the intention of having a relationship when you are young then to fix yourself up when you get older.
Also tawbah does NOT reduce the weight of the book of sins. The book of sins is a permanent record! And if you are not able to increase the weight of the book of good deeds so it weighs more than the book of sins, that might be a situation when allah weighs them infront of us!!
Also it has been said in the quran that the book of sins will be wide open for everyone to see, so everyone will be able to see our sins on the day of judgement! Will be not be judging people when? If not, why is allah going to reveal or show our book of sins to others?
You are asking Muslim women in the UK to prove themselves to you! Your whole question is asking Muslim women to prove themselves...!
I find it amazing how you have managed to twist this into something I did not do! I did not want them to prove to me! I wanted to prove to the original poster. I guess its my fault for not choosing my words carefully!
Will get back to this tomorrow. I see no reason to back down from this because I feel I have done nothing wrong. I think it is wrong not to prove to the original poster that she is wrong to say that it is the NORM to do that stuff!
dhakiyya
29-06-06, 11:59 PM
I find it amazing how you have managed to twist this into something I did not do! I did not want them to prove to me! I wanted to prove to the original poster. I guess its my fault for not choosing my words carefully!
I did not twist it, I'm telling you how your posts made me feel as a Muslim sister, and it seems I'm not the only one that feels that way. As you said, you did not choose your words carefully, nor did you consider how your questioning would make sisters feel, particularly revert sisters or sisters (or brothers for that matter!) who have sinned in the past and made tawbah for their sins.
I don't go round twisting what people say, if what you intended to say is not the way that it came across you need to consider what you say and how you say it more carefully.
I don't agree that just one sister saying "I didn't do that" would be more convincing for the original poster than all the other posts stating in no uncertain terms that the behaviour is wrong - nor do I think that she thought the behaviour is okay, the way she phrased it, it seems she knows it was wrong.
Ibn Suleman stated in an earlier post that we should not boast about our good deeds, any more than we should talk about our sins. Not only that but we should also hide the sins of our brothers and sisters, if we hide their sins Allah will hide some of our sins.
After Allah has forgiven someone, how can any human being still be judgemental of them for it? Regardless of whether its written in their book of sins - that is still between them and Allah and if Allah exposes their sins on judgement day that is up to Allah - it is NOT for us to be judgemental of or expose sins people have repented for.
dhakiyya
30-06-06, 12:19 AM
Will get back to this tomorrow. I see no reason to back down from this because I feel I have done nothing wrong. I think it is wrong not to prove to the original poster that she is wrong to say that it is the NORM to do that stuff!
No-one here thinks that to say it is the norm to do that stuff is right. no-one is disagreeing with you about that. Find one post on this thread where someone says "yes you are right that is the norm" or "yes this is okay this is what we do" - none of them do. Yes we should challenge what she said about that, in fact pretty much everyone who posted on this thread already had done that.
The issue is the WAY you have gone about attempting to prove her wrong. I acknowledge that your intention may have been very different, but the result is that you have posted things that are grossly unfair on revert sisters or sisters who have repented for past sins. Also there is the fact you haven't requested the same of brothers - you say its because you want to know for getting married, but you did not explain that to start with so your post came across as being judgemental on sisters and ignoring brothers who do the same sins. Whether you intended it or not you are pressuring sisters to either boast of good deeds or inadvertantly reveal their sins through not saying anything. All in all it was a thoughtless and insensitive thing to request.
I'm sorry that you feel you are being attacked - personally I feel I am simply defending myself and other sisters from your thoughtless and insensitive question, and the implicit implications within it which you didn't intend, but nevertheless exist.
Salman Al-Farsi
30-06-06, 07:14 AM
This thread is getting a bit off-topic.
But still, I would like to ask Nami a question which is:
Would you ask this same question to your own mother or sister? If yes than I feel sorry for you. If no, than how dare you ask that question to any one of our sisters here?
islamirama
30-06-06, 02:15 PM
Let's calm down here people. No one is accusing anybody of anything nor is anyone insinuating anything.
Sis dhakiyya, i think you may have taken this as a personal attack. I'm sure the bro is not trying to do that.
The original poster said that everyone does it and its the norm. And that does label everyone as person engaging in these things and i do think we need to address that as everyone here is being labeled as such a person who has done something in the past. I know lot of bros and sis in uk (hijbai or not) have done and continue do the dating stuff and zina stuff. But i also know that there are good people in uk as well. we have good sisters on this forum who do hijaab and niqaab and even good sis who don't do hijab but are just as good if not better than some hijaabis.
Nami: Bro, You do not have to be so adamant about disapproving the original post with a statement from a sis, as it can be done without it. We can tell him/her that it is not the case and perhaps they have come across only those kind of people and it is not right to generalize that to all the Muslims of UK.
as I have said several times, the attitude of "messing around" with the idea that you'll be more Islamic later in life, is a deplorable attitude, but as I have stated repeatedly it is NOT a common attitude among Muslim women, and I have yet to come across any Muslim women with this attitude.
I have come across such people. One arabi hijaabi told me herself that this is the only time she can relax and have "fun" and once she gets married then she'll be more islamic.
Our muslim bro/sis are not that innocent these days, we have good and bad among us. I fear we have more bad than good and therefore i also believe we should focus more on giving dawaah to our own muslim bro/sis before we go to the kuffars. Kuffars judge us and our religion by observing us not reading our Quran and literature. Our actions are the real dawaah here.
Someone mentioned previously something comparing zina to some other minor sin and also tawbah. We all do minor sins everyday, but zina is a major sin and should not be taken so lightly. Tawbah is good as it should be done but that still doesn't change the fact that a major sin took place. Allah can forgive that person but that doesn't maker that person a virgin again. As the Quran states, leave the fornicator for the fornicatore and the adultor for the adulter.
Now how about we get back the real issue, helping this sis give dawaah to her friend.
Sis continue to give dawaah and do your best to stop her from this sinful act. Talk to the guy also, tell him what he's doing is haraam for someone who keeps a beard. Ask him how he would feel if he's mother or sister slept around like that with another guy. Threaten him to stop or you will tell his parents. If you're afraid to tell the girl's praents then you should go tell the guy's parents. And since the girl's parents already think you have something to do with this. Why not hint to them to check on her at night time. This way you won't tell them directly nor will you keep it hidden from her parents. Remember it's a sin on you to keep silent when knowing of this sin. There's no need to tell the world as we should hide the sin of our bro/sis but it's also important to tell those repsonsible for her or someone who can help to stop this.
dhakiyya
01-07-06, 11:42 AM
Sis dhakiyya, i think you may have taken this as a personal attack. I'm sure the bro is not trying to do that.
I didn't ever consider it a personal attack, however it is an impossible question for a sister to answer without either revealing sins, boasting about good deeds or making another sister feel bad if she has got something in her past.
As a revert I find it particularly offensive (not personally, but offensive to any revert) mostly because Allah forgives any sins before you come to Islam and its no-ones business what those sins were, but also because to say "I'm not answering that question because I'm a revert" - most people would assume that to be the same as revealing past sins, however, there are three possible answers that a revert could have to that question:
Revert A: due to strong deen al fitr did not ever date because they did not want to date and did not like/approve of the idea of casual relationships
Revert B: did not ever date because they could not get a date because no-one found them cool/attractive enough but this was not for the want of trying
Revert C: had casual relationships before coming to Islam
Is any of these three better than any of the other? No. Revert to Islam = sinless as a newborn baby (at time of reversion)
Revert A could honestly answer the question "I never dated" but this could result in making any reverts that did not have such strong deen al fitr feel bad/inferior, plus its boasting about good deeds or making yourself sound superior because you are boasting about having strong deen al fitr
Revert B could honestly answer the question "I never dated" but this would be dishonest about their intentions because they would have if they could, plus it still could make other reverts feel bad
Revert C could not answer the question without revealing past sins or lying.
saying "I'm not answering that cause I'm a revert" would be assumed by most people to mean "I sinned in the past but Allah forgave me because I'm a revert" - and to keep silent altogether when I am obviously involved with the thread will most likely be interpreted as "she's a Muslim sis that has done that in the past"
I'm sure bro nami didn't intend for people to think in this way, but the reality is that people do think in this way and make those assumptions about people, including assuming that all western reverts have behaved like revert C just because they grew up in the west.
With regards to tawbah, if someone approaches sin with the attitude "its okay, I can always do tawbah" then their tawbah will not be accepted, whether for major or minor sins. It is never something to be taken lightly. You can do tawbah as much as you like, its up to Allah whether it is accepted or not, and that depends on you fulfilling the conditions for tawbah which includes having the right intention and sufficient sincerity.
If I can remember rightly the conditions are - being sincerely and sufficiently sorry/ashamed of the sin, making a sincere resolution never to do that sin again AND sticking to it to the absolute utmost of your ability (some sins like alcohol addiction are harder to give up but Allah knows if you are really trying your best or not) and also where appropriate to do things to make up for the harm done by your sins (e.g. if you are repenting for theiving you should try to give back everything you stole, or give equivalent to charity if you can't give it back) - if I have missed out any extra conditions may Allah forgive me and someone point out what I have missed out.
You can do tawbah for major sins, and even shirk - obviously the worse the sin the harder it will be to make your tawbah acceptable to Allah - and for the person who has sinned they should not assume that Allah has accepted the tawbah it may mean they do far more to make sure.
If someone has sincerely repented from a sin, and we can see that they have stopped doing that sin, as our brother or sister in Islam we should treat them like they have never done the sin. If Allah hasn't yet accepted their tawbah thats between them and Allah and we should assume the best of them, if Allah has accepted it and we havent - well that doesn't leave us in a favourable position on judgement day!!
Though for someone with the attitude you describe in the quote below, not only are they sinning they are making it difficult for themselves to do tawbah in the future because of the necessity to feel truly sorry and ashamed of the sin. As long as they think that attitude is okay, I don't see how they will ever meet the first criteria I listed above for tawbah, even if they have stopped committing the sin.
I have come across such people. One arabi hijaabi told me herself that this is the only time she can relax and have "fun" and once she gets married then she'll be more islamic.
Our muslim bro/sis are not that innocent these days, we have good and bad among us. I fear we have more bad than good and therefore i also believe we should focus more on giving dawaah to our own muslim bro/sis before we go to the kuffars. Kuffars judge us and our religion by observing us not reading our Quran and literature. Our actions are the real dawaah here.
I don't doubt that they exist, although the only actual peole like this I have come across in real life (as opposed to people being talked about, anecdotal evidence etc) have been brothers, not sisters. in addition, there has been a severe lack of Islamic education in their childhood such that they have no clue about Islam. Hence if I were to meet the same people later on in life and they have now learned about Islam and are practicing properly I'd consider them more like reverts than like Muslims who sinned and did tawbah.
I totally agree with you about giving dawa to Muslims, and also providing opportunities for Muslims to learn about Islam - all the stuff they were never taught as children but should have been.
I went on a short Islamic studies course last year because I wanted to learn a lot more about the deen, being new to Islam. There were twice as many sisters as brothers on the course, because despite growing up in Muslim families, many had not been given an Islamic education because their local mosque only provided education for the boys and/or their parents didn't provide any Islamic education at home. This is a huge part of the problem with Muslims that are not behaving Islamically. Not that any of the sisters on the course behaved like that, but you can understand that someone can't behave Islamically if no-one taught them how a Muslim should behave - and the ones that need education the most are probably the least likely to sign up for an Islamic studies course.
Of course this is not an explanation for every Muslim with that attitude, because there are no doubt some that have had an Islamic education but for one reason or another can't/won't follow the rules properly. These people need dawa too of course, but in a different way.
islamirama
01-07-06, 07:05 PM
I didn't ever consider it a personal attack, however it is an impossible question for a sister to answer without either revealing sins, boasting about good deeds or making another sister feel bad if she has got something in her past.
As a revert I find it particularly offensive (not personally, but offensive to any revert) mostly because Allah forgives any sins before you come to Islam and its no-ones business what those sins were, but also because to say "I'm not answering that question because I'm a revert" - most people would assume that to be the same as revealing past sins, however, there are three possible answers that a revert could have to that question:
Revert A: due to strong deen al fitr did not ever date because they did not want to date and did not like/approve of the idea of casual relationships
Revert B: did not ever date because they could not get a date because no-one found them cool/attractive enough but this was not for the want of trying
Revert C: had casual relationships before coming to Islam
Is any of these three better than any of the other? No. Revert to Islam = sinless as a newborn baby (at time of reversion)
Revert A could honestly answer the question "I never dated" but this could result in making any reverts that did not have such strong deen al fitr feel bad/inferior, plus its boasting about good deeds or making yourself sound superior because you are boasting about having strong deen al fitr
Revert B could honestly answer the question "I never dated" but this would be dishonest about their intentions because they would have if they could, plus it still could make other reverts feel bad
Revert C could not answer the question without revealing past sins or lying.
saying "I'm not answering that cause I'm a revert" would be assumed by most people to mean "I sinned in the past but Allah forgave me because I'm a revert" - and to keep silent altogether when I am obviously involved with the thread will most likely be interpreted as "she's a Muslim sis that has done that in the past"
I'm sure bro nami didn't intend for people to think in this way, but the reality is that people do think in this way and make those assumptions about people, including assuming that all western reverts have behaved like revert C just because they grew up in the west.
With regards to tawbah, if someone approaches sin with the attitude "its okay, I can always do tawbah" then their tawbah will not be accepted, whether for major or minor sins. It is never something to be taken lightly. You can do tawbah as much as you like, its up to Allah whether it is accepted or not, and that depends on you fulfilling the conditions for tawbah which includes having the right intention and sufficient sincerity.
If I can remember rightly the conditions are - being sincerely and sufficiently sorry/ashamed of the sin, making a sincere resolution never to do that sin again AND sticking to it to the absolute utmost of your ability (some sins like alcohol addiction are harder to give up but Allah knows if you are really trying your best or not) and also where appropriate to do things to make up for the harm done by your sins (e.g. if you are repenting for theiving you should try to give back everything you stole, or give equivalent to charity if you can't give it back) - if I have missed out any extra conditions may Allah forgive me and someone point out what I have missed out.
You can do tawbah for major sins, and even shirk - obviously the worse the sin the harder it will be to make your tawbah acceptable to Allah - and for the person who has sinned they should not assume that Allah has accepted the tawbah it may mean they do far more to make sure.
If someone has sincerely repented from a sin, and we can see that they have stopped doing that sin, as our brother or sister in Islam we should treat them like they have never done the sin. If Allah hasn't yet accepted their tawbah thats between them and Allah and we should assume the best of them, if Allah has accepted it and we havent - well that doesn't leave us in a favourable position on judgement day!!
Though for someone with the attitude you describe in the quote below, not only are they sinning they are making it difficult for themselves to do tawbah in the future because of the necessity to feel truly sorry and ashamed of the sin. As long as they think that attitude is okay, I don't see how they will ever meet the first criteria I listed above for tawbah, even if they have stopped committing the sin.
I understand where your coming from sis. I believe the bro meant sisters that are born Muslims, not reverts. All the we all are Muslims, but there’s a difference. The reverts once did not have guidance but now they do and now they are on the right path alhamdulillah. But born Muslims were born on the right path and guidance (quran), so naturally if they adhere to those principles and teachings then no bro or sis would date, mess around, or do anything un-islamic of that nature. So the question was directed at these sisters from where I understand it. All sisters (and bros) should be pure and clean from “relationships” prior to marriage which the original poster said is the norm and “we” all have done it growing up. We k now the situation is different with the reverts, it’s the Muslim born and raised are the one’s under discussion here. Regardless, I think this matter should be dropped as there’s no benefit in continuing with debate for anyone.
Fact is that not everyone messes around and we have good people in uk who stay away from haram relationships, and then we have the misguided ones as well. We all should look at ourselves first and then judge others.
I don't doubt that they exist, although the only actual peole like this I have come across in real life (as opposed to people being talked about, anecdotal evidence etc) have been brothers, not sisters. in addition, there has been a severe lack of Islamic education in their childhood such that they have no clue about Islam. Hence if I were to meet the same people later on in life and they have now learned about Islam and are practicing properly I'd consider them more like reverts than like Muslims who sinned and did tawbah.
I totally agree with you about giving dawa to Muslims, and also providing opportunities for Muslims to learn about Islam - all the stuff they were never taught as children but should have been.
I went on a short Islamic studies course last year because I wanted to learn a lot more about the deen, being new to Islam. There were twice as many sisters as brothers on the course, because despite growing up in Muslim families, many had not been given an Islamic education because their local mosque only provided education for the boys and/or their parents didn't provide any Islamic education at home. This is a huge part of the problem with Muslims that are not behaving Islamically. Not that any of the sisters on the course behaved like that, but you can understand that someone can't behave Islamically if no-one taught them how a Muslim should behave - and the ones that need education the most are probably the least likely to sign up for an Islamic studies course.
Of course this is not an explanation for every Muslim with that attitude, because there are no doubt some that have had an Islamic education but for one reason or another can't/won't follow the rules properly. These people need dawa too of course, but in a different way.
I don’t agree with you entirely on this part. I have seen bros and sisters where as you have only seen bros doing the unislamic stuff. The family can only teach so much to the kids, if the kids take it in one ear and out the other and follow the society and their nafs then not much can be done by the parents. Youth is also more sneaky and misleading with their parents compared to before. Let me share some stories of the sisters as we know the bro’s do it but you said you never have come across girls.
There’s a sister in UK that is about 17, she’s been talking to a bro on the phone for over a year now. She does hijaab and abaya and everyone believes her to be very Islamic but no one knows she talks to a guy one the phone. She said if he asks to have sex then she will do it.
There’s a sis who done an alima course and yet she sneaks a guy (with a beard) into her bedroom and have sex with her. She has set rules that no one from her family can enter her room. She may study the alima course but as you can see she clearly lacks the wisdom and understanding of it. As you can see that’s what this whole thread is about, give the friend of this sis help to stop that sis from any further zina.
There’s a sis in the US, she lives on campus and has a kaffir boyfriend with whom she loves having sex. She wears tank tops and miniskirts and what not. On holidays she goes home, she wears the hijaab and abaya while she’s at home, fooling her parents and community.
Now I believe this is a result of two things. One is the working mothers who think they can handle work and family life. And other is the house wife who stays home but watches Indian movies or soaps not knowing where her kids are or what they are doing. Motherhood is a full time job where you have to spend as much time with your kids as possible and in that time rather then watching soaps, playing, most time should be spent giving them naseeha, tell them stories of the sahaaba, of her childhood, and making a bond with the kids. She has to be a mentor as well as a teacher, not just a mother if she doesn’t want her kids to be dating and having sex at teenage years.
These Muslims don’t feel guilty but rather are relaxed and think it’s quite normal and ok. So as you can see dawaah is very important to give to them. Where the parents have failed, the community must do something. Have Islamic courses and seminars, youth activities and what not. Otherwise we see our youths falling into major sins and not just minor ones.
We have bad and good apples, but I fear we have more bad then good apples among us. Which is why we are in the state this Ummah is, and if we do not change then Allah will do what He has done before. He’ll forget us and choose another people to represent His religion.
Abu Mus'ab
01-07-06, 08:58 PM
Will get back to this tomorrow. I see no reason to back down from this because I feel I have done nothing wrong. I think it is wrong not to prove to the original poster that she is wrong to say that it is the NORM to do that stuff!
I Was Going To Comment,But I Think I'll Just My Comments To Myself About You.
And Somehow You Just "Happened" To Miss "Ibn Sulaiman's" Post,Anyway I'll Post it Again.
Salamah bin Dinar said, "Hide your good deeds (from the people) just like you hide your evil deeds". (Abu Nu'aym, Bayhaqee)
And in a narration in al-Bayhaqee, "Hide your good deed like
you hide your evil deed, and do not be amazed with your own action, for you do not know whether you are happy or wretched (in the Hereafter)"
Man, subhanAllah I cant beleive these kind of things actually happen. I thought it was just people telling tell tales for a bit of gossip..actually I knew it happened but still suprising.
And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse (zina) and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." (al-Furqaan #25, ayat #68-70)
"And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah (a great sin) and an evil way." (Sura Al-Israa # 17 ayah # 32)
Hassnetwork-me
01-07-06, 11:15 PM
Assallamu Alaikum
For Gods Sake; am sure your all quite intelligent here;
but after having read brother nami's posts; he isnt asking anyone to "reveal" their sin;
Basically; he wanted a sister to post and disagree to the fact that it isnt a "norm" to have a pre-marital relationship;
if you know what i mean :)
so calm down brothers and sisters; i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick :)
Peace;
Wa alaikum assallam
Humble1
02-07-06, 10:29 AM
we shudnt even be mentioning the sins prevailant in the ummah today. ok they do happen but mentioning them and talking about them just makes it worse and people will begin to think it the norm, and once dat happens there will be nothing left for us, but ruinnation!!!
Humble1
02-07-06, 10:32 AM
Man, subhanAllah I cant beleive these kind of things actually happen. I thought it was just people telling tell tales for a bit of gossip..actually I knew it happened but still suprising.
And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such life as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse (zina) and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful." (al-Furqaan #25, ayat #68-70)
"And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah (a great sin) and an evil way." (Sura Al-Israa # 17 ayah # 32)
we shudnt even be mentioning the sins prevailant in the ummah today. ok they do happen but mentioning them and talking about them just makes it worse and people will begin to think it the norm, and once dat happens there will be nothing left for us, but ruinnation!!!
Abu Mus'ab
02-07-06, 02:03 PM
Assallamu Alaikum
For Gods Sake; am sure your all quite intelligent here;
but after having read brother nami's posts; he isnt asking anyone to "reveal" their sin;
Basically; he wanted a sister to post and disagree to the fact that it isnt a "norm" to have a pre-marital relationship;
if you know what i mean :)
so calm down brothers and sisters; i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick :)
Peace;
Wa alaikum assallam
Wa Alaikumus Salaam.
No One,I Repeat No One Has To Answer To Him,Why Dont People Just Read My Posts?
No Matter I'll Post It Again.
Salamah bin Dinar said, "Hide your good deeds (from the people) just like you hide your evil deeds". (Abu Nu'aym, Bayhaqee)
And in a narration in al-Bayhaqee, "Hide your good deed like
you hide your evil deed, and do not be amazed with your own action, for you do not know whether you are happy or wretched (in the Hereafter)"
And If Anyone Has An Inkling Of Doubt About The Chastity Of The Muslim Women Then They Really Need A Good Whipping.
I did not twist it, I'm telling you how your posts made me feel as a Muslim sister, and it seems I'm not the only one that feels that way. As you said, you did not choose your words carefully, nor did you consider how your questioning would make sisters feel, particularly revert sisters or sisters (or brothers for that matter!) who have sinned in the past and made tawbah for their sins.
I don't go round twisting what people say, if what you intended to say is not the way that it came across you need to consider what you say and how you say it more carefully.
I don't agree that just one sister saying "I didn't do that" would be more convincing for the original poster than all the other posts stating in no uncertain terms that the behaviour is wrong - nor do I think that she thought the behaviour is okay, the way she phrased it, it seems she knows it was wrong.
Ibn Suleman stated in an earlier post that we should not boast about our good deeds, any more than we should talk about our sins. Not only that but we should also hide the sins of our brothers and sisters, if we hide their sins Allah will hide some of our sins.
After Allah has forgiven someone, how can any human being still be judgemental of them for it? Regardless of whether its written in their book of sins - that is still between them and Allah and if Allah exposes their sins on judgement day that is up to Allah - it is NOT for us to be judgemental of or expose sins people have repented for.
You're right, I didn't choose my words carefully! Insha'Allah I will try to be more considerate next time.
I was not telling anyone to BOAST about their good deeds. I simply wanted a real life example to prove the original poster wrong. Thats is, and I don't see anything wrong with that.
You are right again, insha'allah a person will be forgiven when they repent. But as the sijeel (i think its called the sijeel) is a PERMANENT record, it almost implies that the sinner needs to not only repent but should increase their good deeds to counter the weight of the 2 books. Just my opinion and it is not based on anything i have read from scholars, so I could be wrong.
This thread is getting a bit off-topic.
But still, I would like to ask Nami a question which is:
Would you ask this same question to your own mother or sister? If yes than I feel sorry for you. If no, than how dare you ask that question to any one of our sisters here?
LOL!!!
1 moderator contradicting another moderater completely. 1 moderator says you should put people in that kind of position, and another moderator does exactly that! But the funny thing is, I did it unintentionally, Salman Al-Farsi did it intentionally and that is blatant from the above post.
Let's calm down here people. No one is accusing anybody of anything nor is anyone insinuating anything.
Sis dhakiyya, i think you may have taken this as a personal attack. I'm sure the bro is not trying to do that.
The original poster said that everyone does it and its the norm. And that does label everyone as person engaging in these things and i do think we need to address that as everyone here is being labeled as such a person who has done something in the past. I know lot of bros and sis in uk (hijbai or not) have done and continue do the dating stuff and zina stuff. But i also know that there are good people in uk as well. we have good sisters on this forum who do hijaab and niqaab and even good sis who don't do hijab but are just as good if not better than some hijaabis.
Nami: Bro, You do not have to be so adamant about disapproving the original post with a statement from a sis, as it can be done without it. We can tell him/her that it is not the case and perhaps they have come across only those kind of people and it is not right to generalize that to all the Muslims of UK.
Quote:
as I have said several times, the attitude of "messing around" with the idea that you'll be more Islamic later in life, is a deplorable attitude, but as I have stated repeatedly it is NOT a common attitude among Muslim women, and I have yet to come across any Muslim women with this attitude.
I have come across such people. One arabi hijaabi told me herself that this is the only time she can relax and have "fun" and once she gets married then she'll be more islamic.
Our muslim bro/sis are not that innocent these days, we have good and bad among us. I fear we have more bad than good and therefore i also believe we should focus more on giving dawaah to our own muslim bro/sis before we go to the kuffars. Kuffars judge us and our religion by observing us not reading our Quran and literature. Our actions are the real dawaah here.
Someone mentioned previously something comparing zina to some other minor sin and also tawbah. We all do minor sins everyday, but zina is a major sin and should not be taken so lightly. Tawbah is good as it should be done but that still doesn't change the fact that a major sin took place. Allah can forgive that person but that doesn't maker that person a virgin again. As the Quran states, leave the fornicator for the fornicatore and the adultor for the adulter.
Now how about we get back the real issue, helping this sis give dawaah to her friend.
Sis continue to give dawaah and do your best to stop her from this sinful act. Talk to the guy also, tell him what he's doing is haraam for someone who keeps a beard. Ask him how he would feel if he's mother or sister slept around like that with another guy. Threaten him to stop or you will tell his parents. If you're afraid to tell the girl's praents then you should go tell the guy's parents. And since the girl's parents already think you have something to do with this. Why not hint to them to check on her at night time. This way you won't tell them directly nor will you keep it hidden from her parents. Remember it's a sin on you to keep silent when knowing of this sin. There's no need to tell the world as we should hide the sin of our bro/sis but it's also important to tell those repsonsible for her or someone who can help to stop this.
You're right, I should have just said, that the original poster was incorrect. But I guess I let emotions get in the way.
I understand where your coming from sis. I believe the bro meant sisters that are born Muslims, not reverts. All the we all are Muslims, but there’s a difference. The reverts once did not have guidance but now they do and now they are on the right path alhamdulillah. But born Muslims were born on the right path and guidance (quran), so naturally if they adhere to those principles and teachings then no bro or sis would date, mess around, or do anything un-islamic of that nature. So the question was directed at these sisters from where I understand it. All sisters (and bros) should be pure and clean from “relationships” prior to marriage which the original poster said is the norm and “we” all have done it growing up. We k now the situation is different with the reverts, it’s the Muslim born and raised are the one’s under discussion here. Regardless, I think this matter should be dropped as there’s no benefit in continuing with debate for anyone.
Unfortunately, that is exactly where I went wrong. I was ignorant not to consider reverts to islam.
I Was Going To Comment,But I Think I'll Just My Comments To Myself About You.
And Somehow You Just "Happened" To Miss "Ibn Sulaiman's" Post,Anyway I'll Post it Again.
I was not asking anyone to boast. I was asking for a true example to prove to the original poster that she is wrong. I dont consider that boasting. I consider that, setting an example.
Assallamu Alaikum
For Gods Sake; am sure your all quite intelligent here;
but after having read brother nami's posts; he isnt asking anyone to "reveal" their sin;
Basically; he wanted a sister to post and disagree to the fact that it isnt a "norm" to have a pre-marital relationship;
if you know what i mean
so calm down brothers and sisters; i think youve got hold of the wrong end of the stick
Peace;
Wa alaikum assallam
Jazak'Allah bro/sis. You are right, that was my intension, but I guess it came out wrong, because I did not consider reverted muslims.
we shudnt even be mentioning the sins prevailant in the ummah today. ok they do happen but mentioning them and talking about them just makes it worse and people will begin to think it the norm, and once dat happens there will be nothing left for us, but ruinnation!!!
That was EXACTLY my point. I thought, as the original poster said that this is the NORM. I thought anyone else reading this who is new or young to islam, will think that this poster was telling the truth! I wanted to make sure that this message did not get through to the new comers.
Anyway, I appologies to all the reverted brother and sisters as I did not consider them!
-Jibril-
04-07-06, 01:15 PM
so its come to a point where she is really serious with this guy. he has a beard n he met her thru a 'mate'..it was only a matter of 2 months n they decided they wanna get married..
.
Salaamun 'Alaikum everyone,
Am I the only one that noticed that the sister in question is MARRIED to the guy?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when was it ever haram to sleep with ones wife? I'm shocked that brothers and sisters were reffering to the sister as a zaani.
They are not committing zina according to the shari'ah, but in the same breath, having friends of the opposite sex is forbidden by the shari'ah and should be avoided at all costs.
As for the sister who posted this, I dont really think its a good idea for you to toally abandon her, but I feel you should keep your distance and give her naseeha now and again.
Wallahu A'lam
Jibril
observer!!
06-07-06, 02:28 AM
Salaamun 'Alaikum everyone,
Am I the only one that noticed that the sister in question is MARRIED to the guy?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but when was it ever haram to sleep with ones wife? I'm shocked that brothers and sisters were reffering to the sister as a zaani.
They are not committing zina according to the shari'ah, but in the same breath, having friends of the opposite sex is forbidden by the shari'ah and should be avoided at all costs.
As for the sister who posted this, I dont really think its a good idea for you to toally abandon her, but I feel you should keep your distance and give her naseeha now and again.
Wallahu A'lam
Jibril
MARRIED?? Since WHEN? You need to re-read the post.
The sisters said they Wanted to get married after 2 months of their relationship.
She did NOT say that they were married after 2 months or they ever got married.
conclusion: They are NOT married hence she's NOT his wife. Both are fornicators in this case.
dhakiyya
06-07-06, 02:42 PM
Nami, apology accepted.
Insha'Allah people can learn from this thread, there are a lot of issues discussed related to this subject - for example: good manners, not revealing past sins, not boasting about good deeds, not jumping to conclusions or making accusations, how to do tawbah (repentance) in addition to some sound Islamic advice for the sister who originally posted this thread.
Insha'Allah people here can stop arguing and learn something, and go back to the original purpose of this thread which is to advise the sister about the problem she explained.
salaamz.
this thread just made me think..that alot of people jump to conclusions. i just wanna say that..that sister that posted this thread..i can relate to her. you guys can cuss if u want. but i so hear what shes talking about.
dont make this into a self reassurence thread. why u wanna be told that not all girls are like this. of course not all of em. but sooner or later or with Allahs help they reform themselves and get bak onto the straight path .
u guys seriously need to take a dip into the swimming pool. its not about you. its about the sister wanting some help/ and if u cant give help then dont post on this thread. make another thread and talk about the other issues on there. and inshaAllah evryone wil be happy.
wa alaikumusalam.:)
imeg.org
06-07-06, 03:50 PM
As Salaam-u-Alikum
first of all, i think mod need to remove this post, cause its setting bad examples for others, "like we all do it" its wronge.
second, you should tell her mom and dad, you have to, before she get hurt alot more..., if you scared to tell, then call them and tell them to watch out stuff...
third, we should all pray for the sister and also what if that was our own sister, not just a sister, so please make dua for her.
Wa Salaam-u-Alikum
I don’t blame this sister or the Brother, rather I blame all of those in our community who have pushed integration with kufar, who call on the Muslims to adopt British values to see themselves as British before Muslim, this is a direct result of these calls. The solution is simple we need to reject integration for interaction with the host community on the basis of Islam. We need to reject there corrupted values for our Islamic value system. We need to reject the British Muslim tag and be proud to call ourselves Muslim only. If we can’t be proud of been Muslim only, and stick to our values, and show the beauty of Islam by interacting with the host community on the bases of Islam, then how can we hope to convince them that our way of life is superior to there way of life. I remember when I first became aware if Islam Muslims tried to convince me that Islam was the best way of life, and I used to ask them if this is the case why do you follow my way of life. It was not until I met Muslims who were proud to be Muslim not British who stuck to there values, and showed me the beauty of Islam through there interaction with on the basis of Islam while rejecting integration that I was finally convinced enough to revert to Islam.
dhakiyya
09-07-06, 11:47 PM
As Salaam-u-Alikum
first of all, i think mod need to remove this post, cause its setting bad examples for others, "like we all do it" its wronge.
Alikum as salaam,
Thanks for your suggestion,
As this is a forum for people to post their problems anonymously and get Islamic advice, I don't think there is a need to remove this post, there are plenty of replies challenging the attitude you mention, I don't think anyone reading this thread is left in any doubt of the unacceptability of that attitude in Islam.
There is also very good advice for the sister, and there may be others reading this forum with similar problems that would also benefit from the advice and the other replies on this thread.
asalaamu alaiakum ...
im not sure how late i am in responding to ur post but ishallah this little input will help...
i dont think you should tell anyone bout this not even her parents cos at the end of the day thats exposing her sin... dont cut ties with this girl cos you might be the only source of good in her life that can help her change her life around... Allah is most merciful and forgives sins if the repentance is sincere... afterall no-one is perfect and everybody has their sins and their secrets in life and Allah is there to accept repentance... i think ur duty and test now is to be there for her and help her as much as you can to try and get her to stay away from the bad things ur friend is doing... whats in the past is in the past you cant go back and fix that but you can help her with her choices for the future inshallah. Maybe she wont listen if you keep telling her to stay away from the guy and that, so take a different approach... call her up and talk bout things and every now and then talk bout islamic things and then arrange to go out together jst spend some time with her so her so that she's occupied with sincere friends and has less tiime to be with those that are bad for her and inshallah it might make her stop and think...
Never underestimate the power of Allah and making du'aa cos subhnallah if you truely love your friend for the sake of Allah; keep her in your prayers and make du'aa for her that Allah may have mercy on her and guide her to al suratal mostaqeem... Her change might not happen over night and it maybe slow but inshallah u will be rewarded for your efforts so dont give up on her... who knows Allah can change her or He may not but the only thing you can do is do ur best in helping ur friend and fellow sister in islam...
Maybe you can encourage her to go to islamic talks cos mashallah that tends to boost people's motivation and could be start... i dont know what else to say apart from take it slowly one step at a time with her and pray to Allah and ensure that ur actions are sincerely to please Allah... and if things do get too much and you decide to let go inshallah Allah will reward you for trying ur best...
-Jibril-
11-07-06, 02:03 PM
MARRIED?? Since WHEN? You need to re-read the post.
The sisters said they Wanted to get married after 2 months of their relationship.
She did NOT say that they were married after 2 months or they ever got married.
conclusion: They are NOT married hence she's NOT his wife. Both are fornicators in this case.
Salaamun 'Alaik brother,
My misunderstanding, I apologise, then, I completely agree with what you're saying, the brother and sister need to be told that what they are doing is haraam and they will be more sinful than the awwam because the sister has knowledge and the brother I presume also knows his deen.
My advice to the sister would still be not to break off contact completely but at the same time, maintain a very big distance, casue shaytan is going to use that sister to mess about with your head, try to give her naseeha, in a very harsh manner....
I'm just wondering what the brothers in the Darul Islam would do to these people :torture:
Ma'salaam
Jibril
*Muhammad*
08-10-06, 01:26 PM
:vomit: i want to throw up, what a yucky story, doesn't she hate herself!don't want to read the rest of it, (i didn't read the entire story, it sucks):(
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