View Full Version : Hayya between Genders...
Asalaamu Alaikum warahmatullah,
Inshallah, just a quick reminder below that I came across. I think everyone (brothers and sisters) should take some time to read inshallah. It is dealing with talking on the phone etc...
Wasalaam.
Question :My question is about the adab or the manner between a brother and sister? I need clarifcation, are we allowed to give salam to sister who is not your muhram or talk to her as you talk to a brother, and how much you allowed to talk? ( what is allowed and not) all these things!...
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah.Certain conditions apply, as follows:
The woman should speak without elongating the words, making her voice soft, or raising her voice. It is haraam for a man to listen with enjoyment, for fear of fitnah (temptation).
The decisive factor for knowing what is haraam in the matter of women’s speaking is what is included in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allaah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.” [al-Ahzaab 33:32]
What is forbidden is being too soft in speech. It is obligatory for women to speak in an honourable manner, which means, as the mufassireen explained, that they should not make their voices soft when addressing men. In conclusion, what is required of the Muslim woman when she speaks to a non-mahram man is that she should adhere to what is mentioned in this aayah. She should refrain from what is forbidden and should fulfil her duties. She should speak only when necessary, and only about matters that are permissible and honourable, not evil.
Between a woman and a non-mahram man there should be no intonation, gestures, chat, joking, flirting or playful talk, so that there will be no room for provocation of desires and doubts.
Women are not prevented from talking to non-mahram men when it is necessary to do so, such as dealing directly with them when buying things or conducting any other financial transaction, because in such cases it is necessary for both parties to speak. A woman may also ask a scholar about some legal Islamic matter, or a man may ask a woman such questions, as is proven in various texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah. Within the guidelines described above, there is nothing wrong with a woman speaking to a non-mahram man.
It is also permissible for men to greet women with salaam and vice versa, according to the most correct opinion, but this greeting must be free of anything that may provoke desire in the person in whose heart is a disease, so as to be safe from fitnah and pay attention to the regulations outlined above. If there is fear of fitnah being provoked by this greeting, then the woman should refrain from either initiating or returning the greeting, because warding off fitnah by neglecting the greeting is warding off mischief, and warding off mischief takes precedence over doing something useful. (See al-Mufassal fi Ahkaam al-Mar’ah by ‘Abd al-Kareem Zaydaan, vol 3/276). And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A, question # 1121
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com (http://www.islam-qa.com))
ur_yusra
23-04-06, 02:47 PM
JazakAllahu khere for the reminder..
hmmm its interesting.. especially the information about the female voice.. also the ruling on speaking ONLY WHEN NECESARRY..
This calls for special caution especially now we got this radio station.. :rolleyes:
JazakAllahu khere for the reminder..
hmmm its interesting.. especially the information about the female voice.. also the ruling on speaking ONLY WHEN NECESARRY..
This calls for special caution especially now we got this radio station.. :rolleyes:
Exactly.Sometimes its easy to forget, that firstly the conversation should only begin if required, and secondly, the content should be limited to necessary talk. On the phone etc its very easy to start talking about un-neccessary things, and this is one of the tricks of shaiytan.
Inshallah, its a reminder for all of us to be careful.
nicegrrl
27-04-06, 07:04 AM
Oh please. Some people just made this up entirely.
The Quran doesnt say when and when not a woman and man can speak to each other. You cant deliberately seduce someone into an affair.
I dont see it saying that I cant tell a guy a joke. Or that I cant laugh at some mutually interesting matter with some man.
I cant commit adultery anyways since Im not married. Well, I suppose I could sleep with a married man, but thats absurd. I wouldnt just because I would talk to him.
What hole do you live in?
Emelianenko
27-04-06, 07:08 AM
Oh please. Some people just made this up entirely.
The Quran doesnt say when and when not a woman and man can speak to each other. You cant deliberately seduce someone into an affair.
I dont see it saying that I cant tell a guy a joke. Or that I cant laugh at some mutually interesting matter with some man.
I cant commit adultery anyways since Im not married. Well, I suppose I could sleep with a married man, but thats absurd. I wouldnt just because I would talk to him.
What hole do you live in?
what hole do you live in?
Starts off with a Hi how r you and ends up in the bed with a "so how was i" :rolleyes:
whilst your at it..find the ayats proving ur stance its not wrong :rolleyes: go on...well give u a head start :rolleyes:
Im a woman alhumdullilah by the way :rolleyes:...are you??? because seriously the you refer to women in your post is more then disturbing, its actually pathetic. Do not refer to us in such a disgusting crude manner.
Islam lays down the regulations and the way to conduct ourselves, not me. If you actually read the post properly, which you obviously did not, you would realise that it states a woman may converse with a man, ofcourse she can in cases of neccessity etc...the point was to illustrate that flirtatious chatter and the like are not acceptable....
You see the problem is, some people dont understand the concept that you stop things at the root, you stop the possibilty of fitna at the level of talking between genders, and this is what stops the interaction leading to levels simliar to which you so pathetically described in your post :rolleyes:..this is the same reason why muslim women wear hijab, and the same reason why Islam does not permit free-mixing.
We are not talking about typing by the way, again it seems you did not read the post, we are talking about actually talking with the opposite gender...
I think you should read the post again, and then try and comment in an intelligent credible manner...right now, your posts just sound like unintellectual banter.
ur_yusra
27-04-06, 05:02 PM
Pathetic.
I cant believe it. I actually cant. Im sitting here trying to get my head round that statement. Someone help me out, is this person for real????
dear o dear..
nicegrrl yeh our voices are very attractive.. dunno about yours.. ????
women are fitnah.. if your not then you really need to question your femeninity..
If you want to talk to a guy simply for the pleasure of it.. then that is your choice..
freemixing in Islam is haram..
ur yusraaaaa :up:
Emelianenko
27-04-06, 05:18 PM
Ameeeeeen
nicegrrl
28-04-06, 02:58 PM
--freemixing in Islam is haram..--
Where does it say that?
Not in made up BS commentary like the one posted which is totally an instance of twisting the Quran into something it doesnt say.
You may as well say that Islam condones wearing bikinis at the beach or something. There is some line in the Quran I recall about having to ask a woman for something from behind a screen, but thats about the closest it comes to forbidding freemixing.
If you are not commiting adultery, then you are not commiting adultery. Just because you are discussing something with someone, doesnt mean you are trying to commit adultery. This is just silly- if I talk politics with some man, then this is something to do with adultery?
As Nawar has seen with my comment to her (I thought you were a man), a woman can be equally as sexual with another. I have had many women make sexual advances to me. Personally, I have very few male friends and acquaintances, so in my life women have actually been a lot more forward about haveing sexual relations with me than men have been. Should I just not talk to women now? Because a woman might be a lesbian or bisexual or something? Its reality. The only purdah that really works is determination. Talking or not talking to men is incidental. And inceideally, I almost never do it because I just dont find men interesting.
Can you even write a post without making crude and sexual references???? I dont, and I dont think anyone else here cares who and what has made sexual advances towards you. What I find shocking, is that you thought you were talking to a brother, and your previous posts were disgustingly vile.
Now it seems you still have not read the first post properly. Twisting the Qur'aan in to something it does not say??? Right ok....hmm....
“O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allaah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.” [al-Ahzaab 33:32]
Read the post again, then get back to me. Seems you have your own interpretation of the Qur'aan.
And please do not talk rubbish, placing 'bikinis' and the Qur'aan in the same sentance in that manner.
la hawla wala quwwata illah billah
The Prophet (SAW) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.” A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?” The Prophet (SAW) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.
(Sahih Bukhari)
The Prophet (SAW) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.” A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?” The Prophet (SAW) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.
(Sahih Bukhari)
Jazakamullah khayr :up:
I was just trying to find that one!!!!!!!!!!!! lol
Lets put it in nice big bold letters inshallah.
nicegrrl
28-04-06, 03:17 PM
--“O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allaah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.” [al-Ahzaab 33:32]--
It says exactly what it says and only what it says. Do not speak to someone with the intention of being a hypocrite or an adulteress. Thats all. No where does it say that you should avoid joking or causal conversation with men. That is made up in the mind of your friend that wrote some BS essay on interpreting this to be what they wanted.
It says "speak in an honorable manner" which clearly means that you can speak to men. No where does it say that bussiness transactions and theological questions are the only form of honorable speech. Your interpretor made that up.
Honor seems to be a concept of general respect in the Quran. So one must speak honestly and with respect. But you can speak and nowhere does it say that you cant speak about jokes, politics, your life, your job, your family, your travels etc. Just dont say "I like xyz in bed, do you?". It says you cant do that.
Read it again, and I am still waiting for a post where you dont make a vile reference. Is it really too difficult????
Once again I come back to the point of Islam cuts out fitna and evil at the root. The ayat commands women to speak in a certain manner, so that IF there were a man with disease in his heart, we are protected against it. Joking and casual conversation with non-mahrams has no place in Islam, nor is it allowed, because it opens the door to fitna. Whether a haraam relationship develops or not is beside the point at this stage, you are not supposed to open the door to it full stop.
Islam protects us at all levels from the perversities of society, why is that so difficult to comprehend?????
This is the honour Islam has given women, even her speech and her manners are jewels in the eyes of Allah (swt)....and I am not one to deny that honour, nor will I forsake it for some cheap joke or conversation with some man I dont even know. That is not honour, maybe that is honour defined by people in this society, but its certainly not honour defined in Islam.
namesake
28-04-06, 03:40 PM
--freemixing in Islam is haram..--
Where does it say that?
Not in made up BS commentary like the one posted which is totally an instance of twisting the Quran into something it doesnt say.
You may as well say that Islam condones wearing bikinis at the beach or something. There is some line in the Quran I recall about having to ask a woman for something from behind a screen, but thats about the closest it comes to forbidding freemixing.
If you are not commiting adultery, then you are not commiting adultery. Just because you are discussing something with someone, doesnt mean you are trying to commit adultery. This is just silly- if I talk politics with some man, then this is something to do with adultery?
As Nawar has seen with my comment to her (I thought you were a man), a woman can be equally as sexual with another. I have had many women make sexual advances to me. Personally, I have very few male friends and acquaintances, so in my life women have actually been a lot more forward about haveing sexual relations with me than men have been. Should I just not talk to women now? Because a woman might be a lesbian or bisexual or something? Its reality. The only purdah that really works is determination. Talking or not talking to men is incidental. And inceideally, I almost never do it because I just dont find men interesting.
In a way I agree with nicegirl. It is near impossible to not speak to men, at work I have to talk all day I realize it's in a professional manner, but I choose to work and choose to make speaches. How is this commiting sin? I'm not asking them to come back to my office for a drink. It's my job and I do it because I love to.
In regards to the free mixing...if you purposly put yourself in the situation to meet guys and intermix then thats wrong, but if I'm at the store, work, library, and meetings, I sometimes cant help where I sit. I have to sit next to a man does that mean I commited haram...I beleive using the word so loosely is wrong...people should not use Haram like that.
I have three brothers and since my parents are very strict with me I'm not allowed to have many friends over so my brothers friends are around all the time...so I speak with them in a good manner. We are friends as well in my opinion that is not haram...
I'm sorry If I speak out of line or am misunderstanding Islam, please forgive me.
In a way I agree with nicegirl. It is near impossible to not speak to men, at work I have to talk all day I realize it's in a professional manner, but I choose to work and choose to make speaches. How is this commiting sin? I'm not asking them to come back to my office for a drink. It's my job and I do it because I love to.
In regards to the free mixing...if you purposly put yourself in the situation to meet guys and intermix then thats wrong, but if I'm at the store, work, library, and meetings, I sometimes cant help where I sit. I have to sit next to a man does that mean I commited haram...I beleive using the word so loosely is wrong...people should not use Haram like that.
I have three brothers and since my parents are very strict with me I'm not allowed to have many friends over so my brothers friends are around all the time...so I speak with them in a good manner. We are friends as well in my opinion that is not haram...
I'm sorry If I speak out of line or am misunderstanding Islam, please forgive me.
I live in this society, I go to university....and it is not hard to maintain minimal contact with the opposite gender. Like you say, sometimes you may have to converse with a man. When it is necessity, one cannot avoid it, and these situations you say what you need to in an honourable manner and nothing more.
But some people on this thread are saying that somehow 'joking' and 'casual conversations' with non-mahram men are ok, which is absurd. How is that minimising contact with the opposite gender when you quite happily have the odd joke or chat with them????
The point is, all this is to protect the woman....I dont want to talk to some man I dont know, nor do I want to laugh and joke with him...Allah (swt) has honoured us above that alhumdulillah.
It is extremely naive to say it wont lead to fitna. Fitna can occur at all levels, from him merely looking at you because we are also commanded to lower our gazes, to thoughts and speech etc... men in this society are perverse, and we need to maintain extra caution, yet why do women do the opposite???? The excuse, oh we have to in this society is not valid, because many sisters live in this society, and maintain their hayya as well.
It is for our benefit...Allah (swt) is protecting OUR honour...
ur_yusra
28-04-06, 03:56 PM
I live in this society, I go to university....and it is not hard to maintain minimal contact with the opposite gender. Like you say, sometimes you may have to converse with a man. When it is necessity, one cannot avoid it, and these situations you say what you need to in an honourable manner and nothing more.
But some people on this thread are saying that somehow 'joking' and 'casual conversations' with non-mahram men are ok, which is absurd. How is that minimising contact with the opposite gender when you quite happily have the odd joke or chat with them????
The point is, all this is to protect the woman....I dont want to talk to some man I dont know, nor do I want to laugh and joke with him...Allah (swt) has honoured us above that alhumdulillah.
It is extremely naive to say it wont lead to fitna. Fitna can occur at all levels, from him merely looking at you because we are also commanded to lower our gazes, to thoughts and speech etc... men in this society are perverse, and we need to maintain extra caution, yet we do the opposite????
It is for our benefit...Allah (swt) is protecting OUR honour...
exactly..
you know one thing that really baffles me is..
how can you lower your gaze from the opposite gender and laugh and joke with them at the same time.. :confused:
exactly..
you know one thing that really baffles me is..
how can you lower your gaze from the opposite gender and laugh and joke with them at the same time.. :confused:
Exactly, I mean, how does that work then????? :scratch:
Shaolin's-Finest
28-04-06, 04:26 PM
--“O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allaah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.” [al-Ahzaab 33:32]--
It says exactly what it says and only what it says. Do not speak to someone with the intention of being a hypocrite or an adulteress. Thats all. No where does it say that you should avoid joking or causal conversation with men. That is made up in the mind of your friend that wrote some BS essay on interpreting this to be what they wanted.
It says "speak in an honorable manner" which clearly means that you can speak to men. No where does it say that bussiness transactions and theological questions are the only form of honorable speech. Your interpretor made that up.
Honor seems to be a concept of general respect in the Quran. So one must speak honestly and with respect. But you can speak and nowhere does it say that you cant speak about jokes, politics, your life, your job, your family, your travels etc. Just dont say "I like xyz in bed, do you?". It says you cant do that.Hello nicegrrl,
Tell me, do you specialise in Ahkam?
IF Islam allows intermingling then what is the need for divisions between men and women? If you are commanded to lower your gaze at the first instance then what does that say about talking to the opposite sex unnecessarily?
There is a hadith where a woman extend her hand (from behind a veil) to give something to the prophet (saaws) and the prophet pulled his hand back and said I dont know if this is the hand of a man or woman. What was the need for veil? There is another Ahadith where which directly refutes all your claims. That is when the prophet (saaws) drectly stated a man should not enter the company of women.
017:032 says 'Come not near zina'. It doesn't say 'Don't DO zina', it says 'stay away from it'. This means anything that can lead to it, and this includes freemixing.
Anyway, lets step outside the box. If we remove all of the laws of Islam from a community we will end up with the west, which has the highest levels of fornication. So much so, that its considered the 'norm'. Now, I'll leave you to workout the reasons behind this.
^^^^ really good points...:up:
Precisely the Quran says Do not come NEAR to zina, excellent point.
Subhanallah, the wisdom of Islam is beyond words.
nicegrrl
28-04-06, 04:58 PM
--exactly..
you know one thing that really baffles me is..
how can you lower your gaze from the opposite gender and laugh and joke with them at the same time..--
I never look at anyone when I speak to them. Bad habit. Runs in the family too.
--IF Islam allows intermingling then what is the need for divisions between men and women? If you are commanded to lower your gaze at the first instance then what does that say about talking to the opposite sex unnecessarily?
There is a hadith where a woman extend her hand (from behind a veil) to give something to the prophet (saaws) and the prophet pulled his hand back and said I dont know if this is the hand of a man or woman. What was the need for veil? There is another Ahadith where which directly refutes all your claims. That is when the prophet (saaws) drectly stated a man should not enter the company of women.--
This obviously wasnt observed with the strictness you seem to think it was. There are descriptions of Mohammud's wives sitting together with their fathers. They were in the company of non-mahrams.
Anyways, you're totally violating the literal "dont enter the company of the opposite sex" issue if you go to a co-ed school. You are in the company of them and they know you are there. Talking to them about a non sexual topic is not zina on some level. Ive not commited zina yet and Im 23 and I talk to men whenever I want (which isnt often since they are entirely dull).
Aisha spoke to men in order to exchange her knowledge all the time. Yes, it was theological knowledge but at the time that was the only knowledge those people had. They were mostly illiterate and so on. Scientific facts, political realities etc. are a part of the natural world created by Allah and are part of a person's body of knowledge. I dont see why the exhange of knowledge between men and women has to be limited to directly theological knowledge.
Why can I not ask "so you are working on physics research, what have you found about anti matter recently?" The knowledge of religion is the most noble branch of knowledge, not the only branch of knowledge.
Salman Al-Farsi
28-04-06, 05:08 PM
Its so simple.
All gender interactions are generally permissable as long as they are not in Khulwa and they are not socialising.
You can talk about work, coursework and such but discussions like 'how was your weekend?' or 'what did u do last night' and such are considered socialising which makes the interaction impermissable.
Ehmm the issue was about 'joking, flirting and uneccessary casual chatter'...since the first post until you started to go off on a tangent and make vile comments 'nice grrl'.
what is all this 'oh if you dont comment zina oh its ok no big deal, its about self control'. Allah (swt) created us, and He (swt) knows the nature of our nafs and how we act, that is why he has laid down the laws regulating gender interaction. How do you think people come to commiting zina in the first place??? Are we so deluded that we dont know the tricks of shaiytan??? Fitna is of the eyes, thoughts, speech, its everywhere, and we need to protect our hayya in the best way we can.
Out of necessity you are allowed to speak to non-mahrams, and when you do, do it in an honourable manner and keep it minimal. This was the point of the first post, and that is correct, so THINK in future before passing rude comments and going off topic.
Im STILL waiting for a post which dont have some next irrelevant vile description...
Its so simple.
All gender interactions are generally permissable as long as they are not in Khulwa and they are not socialising.
You can talk about work, coursework and such but discussions like 'how was your weekend?' or 'what did u do last night' and such are considered socialising which makes the interaction impermissable.
Simple indeed....so was the first post I thought.
i hope nawar does not find my post crude, but it is just to illustrate a point inshaAllah in the mildest of all manners.
when nicegrrl was opposing the tone-of-woman-inciting-men-sexually comment...i thought of the rampant sex lines that are available for people to call. with mainly women on the other end of the telephones speaking in soft tones inciting the caller to do....whatever it is they do (digging my self out of hole here!)...my point being they would not be able to achieve 'success' (whtever that is) if they were speaking in non-soft tones with someone.
Allah has created the woman so beautiful that it is difficult for men to resist, and Allah has created the men weak, with regards to their sexual desires, hence it is imperative that we as muslim women take all necessary steps to safeguard our bodies and minds and by doing so we are protecting that of the society too inshaAllah.
i also work in an environment where i do come into contact with men. alhamdulilah all my staff are female so i am very fortunate. but my boss is male and when i do speak with him it is very to the point etc...and i ddont overexagerate my harshness in my voice, i just speak to him normally and leave it at that.he knows the score with me!!.And i can understand how easy it is to get into an unnecessary conversation..but again our modesty, as women, should and will inshaAllah be at the forefront of our minds at all time....and every one knows the analogy of a pearl and a muslim woman.
'You must spread some reputation around before giving it to puella again...' :)
You make a very valid point mashallah....
but ermmm.....the crudeness..yeh can everyone just avoid that please :(
Shaolin's-Finest
28-04-06, 05:51 PM
--exactly..
you know one thing that really baffles me is..
how can you lower your gaze from the opposite gender and laugh and joke with them at the same time..--
I never look at anyone when I speak to them. Bad habit. Runs in the family too.
--IF Islam allows intermingling then what is the need for divisions between men and women? If you are commanded to lower your gaze at the first instance then what does that say about talking to the opposite sex unnecessarily?
There is a hadith where a woman extend her hand (from behind a veil) to give something to the prophet (saaws) and the prophet pulled his hand back and said I dont know if this is the hand of a man or woman. What was the need for veil? There is another Ahadith where which directly refutes all your claims. That is when the prophet (saaws) drectly stated a man should not enter the company of women.--
This obviously wasnt observed with the strictness you seem to think it was. There are descriptions of Mohammud's wives sitting together with their fathers. They were in the company of non-mahrams.
Anyways, you're totally violating the literal "dont enter the company of the opposite sex" issue if you go to a co-ed school. You are in the company of them and they know you are there. Talking to them about a non sexual topic is not zina on some level. Ive not commited zina yet and Im 23 and I talk to men whenever I want (which isnt often since they are entirely dull).
Aisha spoke to men in order to exchange her knowledge all the time. Yes, it was theological knowledge but at the time that was the only knowledge those people had. They were mostly illiterate and so on. Scientific facts, political realities etc. are a part of the natural world created by Allah and are part of a person's body of knowledge. I dont see why the exhange of knowledge between men and women has to be limited to directly theological knowledge.
Why can I not ask "so you are working on physics research, what have you found about anti matter recently?" The knowledge of religion is the most noble branch of knowledge, not the only branch of knowledge.Hello Nicegrrl,
You should use the 'quote' tags when quoting other people. It's easier on the eye.
This obviously wasnt observed with the strictness you seem to think it was. There are descriptions of Mohammud's wives sitting together with their fathers. They were in the company of non-mahrams.You refute yourself and you don't even realise. They were with their mahrams. Anyway, can you post this hadith.
Anyways, you're totally violating the literal "dont enter the company of the opposite sex" issue if you go to a co-ed school. You are in the company of them and they know you are there. Talking to them about a non sexual topic is not zina on some level. Ive not commited zina yet and Im 23 and I talk to men whenever I want (which isnt often since they are entirely dull).You drift from one extreme to the other. Men and women are allowed to talk under necessity but it is strictly limited to the issues at hand. What we are addressing here is the socialising.
So your approach is since you haven't commited zina by talking to men then it is ok to intermingle? Not only that but you disregard the Islamic teachings - You should re-evalute yourself, it might do you some good.
Aisha spoke to men in order to exchange her knowledge all the time. Yes, it was theological knowledge but at the time that was the only knowledge those people had. They were mostly illiterate and so on. Scientific facts, political realities etc. are a part of the natural world created by Allah and are part of a person's body of knowledge. I dont see why the exhange of knowledge between men and women has to be limited to directly theological knowledge.
Why can I not ask "so you are working on physics research, what have you found about anti matter recently?" The knowledge of religion is the most noble branch of knowledge, not the only branch of knowledge.Aisha spoke to them to teach them, NOT to socialise with them. If my memory serves me correct I remember a hadith where she would speak behind a viel and put two of her fingers in her mouth to not invoke lust. I cannot confirm its authenicity.
What we are discussing here (and it seems you are trying to shift the topic now) is whether the genders can socialise.
~ Bumpdiddilyump :) (first post people, before it got all complex)
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