Female Med Students/Doctors

[Unique Muslimah]

AssalamuAlaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu Ya Ummah,

Over the last week,I have had a series of discussions with a close of friend of mine and my cousin.The issue of marriage came up(ofcourse) and in particular, marriage to a female doctor or medical student.InshaAllah,I am planning,or was planning,to go into medicine,and he discouraged me from doing so(he himself being a first year med student) and gave me the following argument,"no one will want to marry you:help:,only a very open minded and understanding person would consider doing so,(and there are not many of them out there)and its especially hard for female doctors to marry,if their prospective spouse is not a doctor himself"-I think here he was referring to the whole male dominance thing,where a guy might not be able to live with the fact that his wife is a doctor,and he's not,and she may have a higher pay than him etc.:banghead:

My close friend on the other hand bought up the argument of women being allowed to become doctors under the shariah for they will have to touch males (which is not permissable) funny how this argument is never raised when its the male doctor has too touch female patients :rolleyes:

Generally,the argument with both of them was that female doctors would not have enought time for a family life etc and would not give priority to her husband and kids over her work,as being a med student/doctor is very demanding..

What (if any) is the ruling on a woman becoming a GP and generally, if any one's got anything to say on the issue,please do so..
JazakAllahu Khairan:)

WassalamuAlaikumWaRahmatullah:afro:

[MWarrior]

you can become a doctor and work abroad in a muslim country where you treat women only ?

[Nawar]

Rulings I dont know sis, but I can give you my opinion or experience on the issue....

You remind me of myself...once upon a time in a land far far away..lol.....and I opted for the not pursuing it reason because I was thinking ahead to the workload, possibly getting married, family etc etc..and to be honest, I wasnt that passionate about it anyway. I think the reason about being tied down to work commitments is a valid one, and is something you need to think about. Obviously when you are married, your duties lie at home to your husband and children first. But having said that, I mean, after youve finished your degree and all the hard work...then you can marry, and you dont neccessarily have to work or you can do part-time work....

In regards to male dominance and not finding a husband....Ive never come across a sister who has had that problem....and anyhow, ahem...all the sister docs I know married brother docs inshallah :up: ....no probs there then...and if only 'open minded and understanding people' will want to marry you.....GREAT!!! thats exactly the type of bro you want :D

The issue of touching males, Im not sure on the ruling, you do have to do these kinds of things even during the degree so.....

I dont think that you should be discouraged from doing something you want to do. If medicine is really your passion, that makes the work load and all the pressure a little easier because at least you enjoy what you do. Sister doctors would be absoloutly fab for our ummah....Ofcourse clarify everything according to Islamic ruling first inshallah.....

[outlandish]

Walaikom salaam sister
I would encourage u to be a doctor. What ur friend said were his views which are quite funny to start with. We need female doctors and it would be very good if u became one. Since women will be more comfortable being treated by a sister than a male.As for doctors not giving enough time to family husband is also not true u can always go for part time. Its not only ur responsibiliity but ur husband's as well in raising the kids so if he is understanding and caring enough u can always work out a solution.
As for the part of if ur a doctor u wont find a husband well ,doctor or not if a girl gets too much education i always hear this that u wont easily find a husband.It is true to some extent since from my personal experience I have seen this and it is hard finding someone. But will u let just coz of this attitude of people stop urself from getting an education.? I love my education and wether it makes it harded or not finding a husband,I wouldnt ever want to give up my education,and long as ur happy with the fact that ur education means u can do a lot for the ummah and we need educated people.

[elefantebianco]

AssalamuAlaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu Ya Ummah,

Over the last week,I have had a series of discussions with a close of friend of mine and my cousin.The issue of marriage came up(ofcourse) and in particular, marriage to a female doctor or medical student.InshaAllah,I am planning,or was planning,to go into medicine,and he discouraged me from doing so(he himself being a first year med student) and gave me the following argument,"no one will want to marry you:help:,only a very open minded and understanding person would consider doing so,(and there are not many of them out there)and its especially hard for female doctors to marry,if their prospective spouse is not a doctor himself"-I think here he was referring to the whole male dominance thing,where a guy might not be able to live with the fact that his wife is a doctor,and he's not,and she may have a higher pay than him etc.:banghead:

My close friend on the other hand bought up the argument of women being allowed to become doctors under the shariah for they will have to touch males (which is not permissable) funny how this argument is never raised when its the male doctor has too touch female patients :rolleyes:

Generally,the argument with both of them was that female doctors would not have enought time for a family life etc and would not give priority to her husband and kids over her work,as being a med student/doctor is very demanding..

What (if any) is the ruling on a woman becoming a GP and generally, if any one's got anything to say on the issue,please do so..
JazakAllahu Khairan:)

WassalamuAlaikumWaRahmatullah:afro:

Wa-alaikum as-salaam my sweet sister in islam,

GUYS:rolleyes: what can i say they will have issues with women for they have something called INSECURITY and this leads them to make excuses preventing us women getting high positions in society....etc...

its funny i can assure you that both your cousin and this friend would hate it if there wife,sister or mother had to see a male doctor....they would be the first complaining that there are no female doctors and they wonder why :rolleyes: .....

my sweet sister...you should do salaat al istikharah about the career you wish to go into...nonetheless i know many young muslim female med students....the issue of marriage is not an option some al7mdulilah have found
men from that rare group that are not doctors yet totally fine with the idea of having a doctor as a wife....it all comes down to security...do not let a couple of men put you off a career that can help the muslim ummah.....

Men like this make me so angry.....ok maybe your cousin has seen how hard med is and is just warning you...bt to say the marriage thing...sweetie you will be fighting them off...so dnt worry about not finding a suitor.....

[elefantebianco]

Duplicate post

[Quest]

First of all, we need female doctors, if we had more of them, my friend wouldnt have to give birth using a male doctors!! personaly i hate science and anything to do with hospitals, so i am pleased when i see my sisters in islam conquering this field. we need nurses, doctors and midwives.

Some of the arguments presented are ridiculous to me, accept for the career being demanding, all i say is prioritise wisely, put ur husband and children first. do not neglect your family, remember they are your true careers.

as long as a sister doesnt neglect them and what she chooses to do is pleasing to ALLAH, i say you go girl.
think about when ur kids are older? they will not be as dependent on u, so u can work properly then.

did not the asabiyaats cater to the needs of the mujahideens? did we hear anyone in history critisising them saying oh but u touch men? how did they cater to the wounds without touching them?

we muslims are understanding our diin backwardly in my opinion, what if i fainted and a muslim brother was present in the street, is it wrong if he picks me up or caters to my need?

Off TOPIC EXAMPLE (to show how backwards we are going)

picture the scene, its a cold rainy night, a sister (for watever reason) is making her way home, she decides to get a cab, on her way a muslim brother she knows sees her and stops, he offers her a lift.

why is it a sister has issues with this?
yet no issues getting a taxi with say a non muslim stranger driver, yet if a brother she knows offered a her a lift on a cold rainy night, why does she feel its haram to get in his car? yet sitting in a cab alone is ok?

some things dont make sense, if u have the choice of taking a lift from ur brother or a cab driver, why not sit in your brother in faiths back seat? let him be ur cabby!

if the sister was wise she would know that going with her brother was a wiser decision, Did not prophet muhammed scw once see a female companion (forgot her name) carrying some heavy stuff on her head, and offer her a lift on his camel when him and the companions saw her as they were riding by?

she said no because she felt her husband would get jealous, when she told him about it, her husband said, i rather u got on lest u be burdened (paraprase)

point: Islam is flexible, and caters to the reality, there are many things we need to learn from prophet muhammed and the companions. we muslims follow the diin from one angle, forgetting that sometimes rules can be followed in more ways then 1, as demonstrated in the sunnah of our rasoul,

ALLAH does not burden a soul for more then it can bear, and its time we humans followed suit.

Ask for the shariahs opinions on this doctor issue sister, just remember ALLAH scans the intention along with the deed.

[sajid]

good topic to discuss on the radio!

[elefantebianco]

good topic to discuss on the radio!

:rolleyes: lol trying to pretend its ur idea.....

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I dont see the obsession with becoming doctors. Its an over-rated professioon.

[sajid]

:rolleyes: lol trying to pretend its ur idea.....

lol it was ur idea so i decided to post it here to tell the rest :)

[elefantebianco]

I dont see the obsession with becoming doctors. Its an over-rated professioon.

yeah it may be over rated.....bt its a career that you can do anywhere in the world....you can help muslims world wide if you get what i mean....its rewarding...its imp...its always needed....

the issue....is why men have an issue with women being doctors if they are not......

[Nawar]

Its over rated culturally, parents may encourage their children to become it because of the 'status' it brings..whatever that means.....but in reality it is under-rated because not many people realise the true value of them or the work that they have to do. Hence the rubbish long hours, competition, work load and pay.

Having sisters as doctors is invaluable, especially for the muslim women who can be treated by them.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I can really see sisters finishing off five years medic doing their house practise and then heading off to Africa or Iraq to help out poor Muslims.

Not in the real world... i ve never heard such a thing.. just poor justifications.

[outlandish]

I can really see sisters finishing off five years medic doing their house practise and then heading off to Africa or Iraq to help out poor Muslims.

Not in the real world... i ve never heard such a thing.. just poor justifications.
:rolleyes: maybe if ppl were a bit open minded this would happen or could happen

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Its over rated culturally, parents may encourage their children to become it because of the 'status' it brings..whatever that means.....but in reality it is under-rated because not many people realise the true value of them or the work that they have to do. Hence the rubbish long hours, competition, work load and pay.

Having sisters as doctors is invaluable, especially for the muslim women who can be treated by them.

Good point, but that aside

[Salman Al-Farsi]

:rolleyes: maybe if ppl were a bit open minded this would happen or could happen

They would be dragging along their mehram each time they went to see the patient..

Sometimes we Muslims have to be realistic

[elefantebianco]

I can really see sisters finishing off five years medic doing their house practise and then heading off to Africa or Iraq to help out poor Muslims.

Not in the real world... i ve never heard such a thing.. just poor justifications.

well i was talking about them being able to assist if they marry dudes who are planing to go for jihad...they can assist the mujahideens.....

im not sure about the kinda sisters u know...bt the ones i know med or not they wnt to go abroad...and help ppl....its our duty after alll....many have planned a gap yr for this...some have been pakistan (after the earth quake)...others iraq etc.....the medics plan to join charities and go and help...whats wrong with a girl doing such things????

[elefantebianco]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

exactly...see thats the issue...guys stop beng stupid...its common sense you need female doctors...so deal with it....

[Nawar]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


Precisely.....couldnt have used a better adjective myself....even with non-muslim female doctors, it can get uncomfortable...I dont like that much either.... :nervous:


Nawarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :up:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

well i was talking about them being able to assist if they marry dudes who are planing to go for jihad...they can assist the mujahideens.....

im not sure about the kinda sisters u know...bt the ones i know med or not they wnt to go abroad...and help ppl....its our duty after alll....many have planned a gap yr for this...some have been pakistan (after the earth quake)...others iraq etc.....the medics plan to join charities and go and help...whats wrong with a girl doing such things????

to assist the Mujahideen .. a first aid course is quiet suffice.

[Nawar]

I percieve the mujahideen may need people (brothers or sisters) who can do more then just stick on a plaster... :rolleyes:

Anyhow, the concern is more to do with having muslim women doctors in this country....that is undeniably required and very beneficial.

[elefantebianco]

to assist the Mujahideen .. a first aid course is quiet suffice.

:rolleyes: no u see...my teacher who is bk from iraq shortly said they need aid in hospitals etc...thats what she was doing whilst her hubby was fighting...yes so first aids good...medical degree is better...

its a jihad in its self to be able to give up the good life we have here and go to africa or somewhere and help for a couple of months a year...you should be encouraging ppl...

why u so anti the idea????

[elefantebianco]

I percieve the mujahideen may need people (brothers or sisters) who can do more then just stick on a plaster... :rolleyes:

Anyhow, the concern is more to do with having muslim women doctors in this country....that is undeniably required and very beneficial.

exactly.....:up:

[K@M]

:salams,

Very interesting topic. However, the issue wasn't whether there should be female doctors or not, no one is debating that. It was whether (from the brothers point of view) the female doc would have time for husband and kids.

Anyways, personally, I wouldnt mind if my wife was a doc inshaAllah, as long as she puts her priorites in order (her family rather than her career), plus as long as the worked part time. And I would prefer if she was a pediatrician :p

[K@M]

OK, scrap that, I was right, she's going to have to be a pediatrician or treat females only inshaAllah :)

Question :

I am a docter living in a western country so my work therefore requires me to see male and female patients. This means that I am often in a room alone with a male patient. Is this wrong islamically? Am I only allowed to treat females and children? I personally dont feel I am doing wrong because all patients regardless of their sex visit a docter to be treated. Your views would be much valued.
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah. From your question we sense that you are keen to find out the correct shar’i ruling and that you want to learn the teachings of your religion and what has to do with your work. We ask Allaah to help us and you to do that which pleases Allaah and to help us avoid disobeying Him or going against His commands in any of our affairs.
It is known that women are the twin halves of men in society, and that they have a great role to play in raising the next generation and in reviving the ummah. A woman may work outside her house in an appropriate job, without exposing herself to anything that goes against sharee’ah.
With regard to treating male patients, and all that it involves of mixing with them and being alone with them, this is not permissible according to sharee’ah, rather it is a fitnah (source of temptation) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against. It was reported that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man should alone with a (non-mahram) woman unless her mahram is present.” Narrated by Muslim, 3259. And he said: “I am not leaving behind me any temptation more harmful to men than women.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4808; Muslim, 6881.
It is not permissible for a woman to treat a man except in cases of necessity, such as if there is no male doctor available to treat him, or if the matter cannot be delayed as in the case of accidents etc.
Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
“Female doctors must treat only women and male doctors must treat only men, except in cases of extreme necessity, if men are suffering a disease for which there is no male doctor available, in which case it is o.k. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
‘He has explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you, except under compulsion of necessity’
[al-An’aam 6:119].”
Fataawa ‘Aajilah li Mansoobi’l-Sihhah, p. 29
Hence you should limit your work to treating women and children as you mentioned, and seek reward for this work with Allaah. Whoever gives up a thing for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that.

[K@M]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]
Erm, I dindt write the fatwah..

It says men are not allowed to treat women either. It doesn't concern me because I have no desire to become a doctor, however, the women being a doctor does concern me..

From a personal point of view, I wouldnt like my wife to be touching men (whether it is allowed or not), I'm sure the wife woulnd't like me touching women either but thats the issue of a sister who is marryin a doctor, not me, hence I am not emphasising the point..

And I know you dont hear the same hoo haa, but Im not planning to marry a guy doctor, thats why Im not making a hoo haa about it, if any sister is planning to marry a guy doctor, go make a hoo haa about it..

[elefantebianco]

OK, scrap that, I was right, she's going to have to be a pediatrician or treat females only inshaAllah :)

Question :

I am a docter living in a western country so my work therefore requires me to see male and female patients. This means that I am often in a room alone with a male patient. Is this wrong islamically? Am I only allowed to treat females and children? I personally dont feel I am doing wrong because all patients regardless of their sex visit a docter to be treated. Your views would be much valued.
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah. From your question we sense that you are keen to find out the correct shar’i ruling and that you want to learn the teachings of your religion and what has to do with your work. We ask Allaah to help us and you to do that which pleases Allaah and to help us avoid disobeying Him or going against His commands in any of our affairs.
It is known that women are the twin halves of men in society, and that they have a great role to play in raising the next generation and in reviving the ummah. A woman may work outside her house in an appropriate job, without exposing herself to anything that goes against sharee’ah.
With regard to treating male patients, and all that it involves of mixing with them and being alone with them, this is not permissible according to sharee’ah, rather it is a fitnah (source of temptation) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has warned us against. It was reported that he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man should alone with a (non-mahram) woman unless her mahram is present.” Narrated by Muslim, 3259. And he said: “I am not leaving behind me any temptation more harmful to men than women.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4808; Muslim, 6881.
It is not permissible for a woman to treat a man except in cases of necessity, such as if there is no male doctor available to treat him, or if the matter cannot be delayed as in the case of accidents etc.
Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
“Female doctors must treat only women and male doctors must treat only men, except in cases of extreme necessity, if men are suffering a disease for which there is no male doctor available, in which case it is o.k. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
‘He has explained to you in detail what is forbidden to you, except under compulsion of necessity’
[al-An’aam 6:119].”
Fataawa ‘Aajilah li Mansoobi’l-Sihhah, p. 29
Hence you should limit your work to treating women and children as you mentioned, and seek reward for this work with Allaah. Whoever gives up a thing for the sake of Allaah, Allaah will compensate him with something better than that.



ok firstly the argument of fraud coz the same should apply to men....i mean lets use commen sense....most of the time its male doctors who abuse there female patince and not vice versa...secondly in an ideal world...same sex doctors will obviously be better but if you believe a women cant be a GP coz of that then we cnt have any muslim GP's....coz islam is EQUAL...btw...i had to see a male doctor and i was told its fine for medical reasons...etc...so there

argh!!!!!!

[K@M]

ok firstly the argument of fraud coz the same should apply to men....i mean lets use commen sense....most of the time its male doctors who abuse there female patince and not vice versa...secondly in an ideal world...same sex doctors will obviously be better but if you believe a women cant be a GP coz of that then we cnt have any muslim GP's....coz islam is EQUAL...btw...i had to see a male doctor and i was told its fine for medical reasons...etc...so there

argh!!!!!!

The fatwa did say men should also should not be treating women unless absolutely neccessary. I'm not syaing you are not allowed to see a male doctor, none of us are in a position to be debating whether it is permissible or not, lets leave that to the scholars.

I had the perfect compromise, whats wrong with being a child doctor, perfect for both the husband and wife. Sometimes I even impress myself [/sarcasm]

EDIT: I saw your EDIT :eek:

[Reptile]

The need for female doctors is undervalued in society, when it comes to practicing medicine your gender is not an issue , what I do see as an concern is that we have to continuously and unnecessarily justify our actions, be what you wish but keep in mind that your intensions need to be pure and you remain within the boundaries of Islam.


The test for whether or not you can hold a job should not be the arrangement of your chromosomes. ~Bella Abzug

[RaNdOm]

...just become a dentist instead :D

[Guardian Hijab]

Sorry sis, but thats so ridiculous! I'm sure a man would love to marry a womyn who is educated!

LOL some men sometimes...yeesh:p

[elefantebianco]

The fatwa did say men should also should not be treating women unless absolutely neccessary. I'm not syaing you are not allowed to see a male doctor, none of us are in a position to be debating whether it is permissible or not, lets leave that to the scholars.

I had the perfect compromise, whats wrong with being a child doctor, perfect for both the husband and wife. Sometimes I even impress myself [/sarcasm]

EDIT: I saw your EDIT :eek:

ok my bad...as long as its equal thats kool..

[Quest]

The fatwa K&M presented seems fair and inline with shariah.

i just wanted to remind folks that when ALLAH and muhammed scw are clear on a matter our opinions should not be dragged in. take the fatwa and case closed, u can get other scholars 2 but they will proberly say the same thing.

i really find it annoying when some muslims (not anyone here) but generaly when some refuse a particular fatwa only 2 to embark on a quest to find a fatwa that suits their desires. such muslims are not seeking knowledge as they claim they are seeking a compromise. Fear ALLAH in this regard pls

The sisters here make a valid point as yusra said there is no fuss made about male doctors meeting the needs of females

ISLAM is not a religion of double standards, and i dont think its fair 2 base more emphasis on the womans role in things, when the same injunctions are given 2 the man.

i also think the women should not rebell because of this, if the less attention is paid 2 the mans undertakings, then raise the issues. like they with us. truth is we have one thing in common we all answer 2 ALLAH

[Hafsah]

unless you are gonna marry some lil village bumkin...i'm sure a man would marry you if you were to become a doctor...some may have objections on the basis that they don't want their wives touchin men etc etc...fair enough...or because medicine is very demanding and will worry that you won't have enough time for family life/wrong priorities..which is also fair enough..lotsa sis's don't wanna go into medicine for the same reason

on the whole treating men thing...i recently asked about something similar...and was told that its preferable to treat only woman (or men to treat only men) but in cases where this isn't possible its advisable to either leave the door open or be in an open place.....most wards are open....and most consultations take place in open wards where several consultants are seeing their patients at the same time

[aurorascopic]

wow, this is probably the most interesting topic (from my perspective) ive come accross..im actually quite glad someones brought it up and so many replies too!hmm..mixed opinions.
i generally agree though that women should treat women and men should treat men but ofourse in an ideal world its not feasible, as there are more male doctors than female-in such a situation the doctor, or whichever sex, should just keep a clear conscience and do their job!
medicine is a degree im looking into and at the same time im engaged! so..inshalah whilst doing the degree id be married..and the guy i should be marrying inshallah doesn't seem to have a problem with it, if anything he's quite pleased..
also, i think if women do become doctors, the best profession they could go into would be gynaecology and obstetrics...
oh btw..isnt sister hafsah a medical student(mashallah)? or am i confused with someone else?

[Hafsah]

oh btw..isnt sister hafsah a medical student(mashallah)? or am i confused with someone else?

confused with someone else :p

[Unique Muslimah]

JazakAllahu Khairan for all of your comments and contributions.Just for clarity, I was planning (inshaAllah) to go into gynecology or paediatrics before even having thought of the fact that I was going to have to treat male patients:p I personally feel that a balance between home life and work can be made..

[~*UC*~]

If any sister wants to be become a doctor and she doesn't have issues touching the most private parts of men then sure go ahead (you have to do that even if you want to go into paediatrics or gynae as a student as well) :rolleyes: But, we know this would clearly be haraam, no doubt about that. Allah DOES NOT command us to become doctors, yet he commands us to guard our chastity. And yeh, I agree medicine is way too over rated. We need some Medicine for our eeman, yeh...

[neelu]

I've only read some of the posts so I'm not sure whether I'm repeating what someone else has said but here goes. I think it would be a great asset to the Ummah for there to be more female doctors around. I know of some Muslimah doctors and dentists who've had rough marriages because their husbands were very insecure about being married to women who were better educated and better paid than them. I totally agree with Nawar's point on this issue. It just means you would need to marry a guy who would be very understanding and respectful of your profession and that's the sort of guy you'd want to marry anyway. How dare anyone suggest that sisters should attempt to dumb down for the sake of coming across as 'better' marriage material. I know many sisters (myself included) who've been told that they wont find a good husband if they cover their heads- it's all jahil crap! As long as you don't lose sight of your Islamic duties towards your family and you marry someone who respects that, there shouldn't be a problem.

[~*UC*~]

No doubt, there are some insecure brothers who are afraid of intelligent women. But, I tink the majority tend to not want to marry sisters who are doctors-not because they have a better job, but because they have to mix so much with men, often travel with them, to places (i.e. from hospital to hospital, or Gp surgeries, etc-because they have to work with them). Medicine has a culture of it's own, you have mix and interact with all kinds of people quite a bit. Then there is the issue of touching strange men....

I would be concerned if my husband was ok with this...it would quite obviously show his lack of gheerah....

[EbuZerr]

Muslims need working women especially in two braches, as "medical and education"... We do not need any Business women or architecture, engineer ect.. Sisters must study especially to these two branches... But with an important restriction.. Family... If sisters can interested in their families and the working conditions are Islamic, they can work in these two branches... This is what I think about this topic..

[~*UC*~]

Muslims need working women especially in two braches, as "medical and education"... We do not need any Business women or architecture, engineer ect.. Sisters must study especially to these two branches... But with an important restriction.. Family... If sisters can interested in their families and the working conditions are Islamic, they can work in these two branches... This is what I think about this topic..

You won't find that in the West, i.e. 'Islamic Environment'. If sisters want to do medicine, they should find out if they can do it in a halal environment in a Muslim country, though I don't know how easy that will be...since these 'Muslim countries' are so hellbent on following the decadent west.

[EbuZerr]

You won't find that in the West, i.e. 'Islamic Environment'. If sisters want to do medicine, they should find out if they can do it in a halal environment in a Muslim country, though I don't know how easy that will be...since these 'Muslim countries' are so hellbent on following the decadent west.

There are private hospitals even in Tukey directed by religious Muslims... If there is not any abroad, they can come to Turkey... I do not know exactly but, in other Muslim counties must have better conditions...

[dhakiyya]

My close friend on the other hand bought up the argument of women being allowed to become doctors under the shariah for they will have to touch males (which is not permissable) funny how this argument is never raised when its the male doctor has too touch female patients :rolleyes:


this is wrong...... there are some branches of medicine that should only be for women like gynacology, midwifery and anything relating to childbirth.

The only time women are allowed to be treated by male doctors is if it is urgent and there is no female doctor available or qualified in the relavent specialism. How is it possible for women to obey this aspect of Islamic law if there are no female doctors?

Also the marriage thing...... there are plenty of bros who would not mind a doctor for a wife. As for earnings, Muhammad :saw: was employed by Khadijah (ra) when she proposed to him, as the employer you would expect that she was earning more than him.

Though if a woman marries a man who earns less than she does she will have to accept a lower standard of living and not complain when she is not working because of having babies etc. Khadijah (ra) did not complain once of anything she endured because of the persecution of Muhammad :saw: and the Muslims, even that siege where the Meccan pagans tried to starve the Muslims, which contributed to her death.

The attitude you describe sounds like a cultural thing with nothing to do with Islam.

[~*UC*~]

There are private hospitals even in Tukey directed by religious Muslims... If there is not any abroad, they can come to Turkey... I do not know exactly but, in other Muslim counties must have better conditions...

InshAllah, if you are right in what you say, then I advise sister's to move to places where they can practice their deen properly if they want to become doctors, bearing in mind you need a mehram to go abroad.

Also, the issue of there being no female doctors, in the West there are non-muslim female doctors, so one could see them out of necessity, and I don't think touching men constantly throughout your medical career can be justified by saying, 'they may have to see a male doctor when they are ill', as the latter is in the case of necessity, your life may be at risk. Also, another factor in the West is that even if all the Muslimahs of the west became doctors, there will always be the possibility that they would have to end up seeing a male doctor anyway as the institutions are set up like that. We need our own institutions, inshAllah we can have such institutions in an Islamic society. We really need to prioritise and realise what comes first.

[aurorascopic]

hmm..quite a few of you have mentioned that sisters should move to a foreign country where medicine can be practised under halal conditions..
hmm..interesting..im not sure if you realise but, its not very simple to just pack up as an independent young sister and say 'right..mum dad, im off to bahrain!' or wherever :rolleyes: and it's not very correct to become a burden and make the entire family move also. and ok the sister might be married, but even then, the husband might already have a established job in the country of residence (somewhere 'haram')..and then you might say 'marry someone from bahrain!' or wherever...but why should a woman restrict herself in such ways to pursue a career that potentially can do so much good?..just doesn't make sense.

[EbuZerr]

hmm..quite a few of you have mentioned that sisters should move to a foreign country where medicine can be practised under halal conditions..
hmm..interesting..im not sure if you realise but, its not very simple to just pack up as an independent young sister and say 'right..mum dad, im off to bahrain!' or wherever :rolleyes: and it's not very correct to become a burden and make the entire family move also. and ok the sister might be married, but even then, the husband might already have a established job in the country of residence (somewhere 'haram')..and then you might say 'marry someone from bahrain!' or wherever...but why should a woman restrict herself in such ways to pursue a career that potentially can do so much good?..just doesn't make sense.

Career? Family? Restrictions? A doctor sister can work in a hospital where Islamic conditions are ensured.. And also she "must" give enough time to her family... If she can find conditions like that she can work,but if the conditions are not like that she should say "Career is Rubbish!" and marry wherever she want and grow children "The Mujaheeds of Future"....

[~*UC*~]

hmm..quite a few of you have mentioned that sisters should move to a foreign country where medicine can be practised under halal conditions..
hmm..interesting..im not sure if you realise but, its not very simple to just pack up as an independent young sister and say 'right..mum dad, im off to bahrain!' or wherever :rolleyes: and it's not very correct to become a burden and make the entire family move also. and ok the sister might be married, but even then, the husband might already have a established job in the country of residence (somewhere 'haram')..and then you might say 'marry someone from bahrain!' or wherever...but why should a woman restrict herself in such ways to pursue a career that potentially can do so much good?..just doesn't make sense.

First of all define 'so much good'.

Also, know that the preservation of Eeman and the deen of Allah comes before any Medicine whereby you have to touch members of the opposite sex who are completely strange (and lose your haya in the process), when there is absolutely no need to do so. The preservation of Islam comes before the preservation of life. This is a point in fiqh, and if you don't agree with me, ask any scholar. A Muslimah doing Medicine in a haraam environment is doing just about as any good as those who say 'but I live in the West so why should I wear hijab?'.

[neelu]

I'm glad unique muslimah wont let the marriage issues put her off alhamdullilah. You never know, if you're lucky, you might end up with a Muslim boss or someone who'll take your needs into consideration. Put your trust in Allah (swt) and make dua that whether you stick with medicine or move onto something else, you're always in a position where your deen isn't compromised.

[Quest]

First of all define 'so much good'.

Also, know that the preservation of Eeman and the deen of Allah comes before any Medicine whereby you have to touch members of the opposite sex who are completely strange (and lose your haya in the process), when there is absolutely no need to do so. The preservation of Islam comes before the preservation of life. This is a point in fiqh, and if you don't agree with me, ask any scholar. A Muslimah doing Medicine in a haraam environment is doing just about as any good as those who say 'but I live in the West so why should I wear hijab?'.


i agree with this bro/sis strongly here

[Te'oma]

to assist the Mujahideen .. a first aid course is quiet suffice.

hmmm if I had a bullet lodged in my anatomy I wouldn't want it extracted by someone with a first aid certificate:nervous:
If I was to go to Jihaad I wouldn't be afraid to die but I would want to do everything in my power to stay alive and keep on fighting and that would not include using a barber/surgeon
IMHO medicine is a noble field to go into for either a man or a woman. If you wish to stay completely inside the rules of Islam then be a GP for women only. I would also add that as a doctor, you do not have to work long hours unless you want to. Many of the doctors here where I live only work 3 days a week and share office space with other doctors that are doing the same thing so they have time to enjoy their families and the lifestyle here.

[aurorascopic]

ok so let me get something straight here. now we are saying that it is haraam full stop to be medics!?..what rubbish! (i am corresponding to those who replied to my post before) because you mentioned a 'muslim touching parts of the other sex is haraam' ..so what ur saying is no muslim should become a doctor, male or female?..how ludicrous! *laughs* people with such views MAKE islam seem backwards, when in reality it isn't!
THERE AREN'T TWO PLANET EARTHS YOU KNOW!(one being MALE earth and the other FEMALE earth) even in shariah there is no such thing as TOTAL SEGREGATION of the planet! gawd! when you go to the supermarket when you're in town when you need to ask for directions etc etc there are members of the opposite sex everywhere! dont tell me that in the time of the prophet(saw) when a woman was sick or going to give birth and there were no female drs theyd just die..or some other circumstance?? :rolleyes:

[~*UC*~]

ok so let me get something straight here. now we are saying that it is haraam full stop to be medics!?..what rubbish! (i am corresponding to those who replied to my post before) because you mentioned a 'muslim touching parts of the other sex is haraam' ..so what ur saying is no muslim should become a doctor, male or female?..how ludicrous! *laughs* people with such views MAKE islam seem backwards, when in reality it isn't!
THERE AREN'T TWO PLANET EARTHS YOU KNOW!(one being MALE earth and the other FEMALE earth) even in shariah there is no such thing as TOTAL SEGREGATION of the planet! gawd! when you go to the supermarket when you're in town when you need to ask for directions etc etc there are members of the opposite sex everywhere! dont tell me that in the time of the prophet(saw) when a woman was sick or going to give birth and there were no female drs theyd just die..or some other circumstance?? :rolleyes:

No one said it was haraam to be a medic. IT IS HARAAM TO BE A MEDIC IN A HARAAM ENVIRONMENT WHEREBY YOU HAVE TO DO HARAAM THINGS. I hope that was clear inshAllah. Being in a supermarket is totally different; you don’t need to touch the opposite gender. Also in an Islamic society never will you have a woman who has to expose her privates to a non-mahram man. Women work with women and men work with men. They have separate facilities for both genders. There is no command from Allah for us to become doctors, yet Allah does command us to guard our chastity.
It says in the hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (6243) and Muslim (2657) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said: “Allaah has decreed for the son of Adam his share of zina which will inevitably catch up with him. The zina of the eye is looking and the zina of the tongue is speaking. The heart wishes and longs and the private part confirms that or denies it.”
According to the version narrated by Muslim: “The zina of the eyes is looking, the zina of the ears is listening, the zina of the tongue is speaking, the zina of the hand is touching, and the zina of the foot is walking. The heart wishes and longs and the private part confirms that or denies it.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If one of you were to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle, that would be better for him than his touching a woman who is not permissible for him.” Narrated by al-Tabaraani in al-Kabeer, 486; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 5045.
It was narrated from ‘Urwah that ‘Aa’ishah told him about the women’s oath of allegiance: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) never touched any woman with his hand. He would explain to the woman what the oath of allegiance implied, and when she accepted, he would say ‘Go, for you have given your oath of allegiance.’”
Narrated by Muslim, 1866
“Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts). That is purer for them. Verily, Allaah is All‑Aware of what they do.
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts)”
[al-Noor 24:30-31]

Now, you might say, that as a doctor, you have no intention to commit zina or have such thoughts. But, what about all those men you will be touching, no doubt they will be excited, when you have to touch them or put catheters in them… and who is responsible? I’ve done my duty in telling you of what I know to be true- If you think it is backwards and if you still want to do it, it’s up to you; it is between you and Allah.

“And whosoever fears Allaah and keeps his duty to Him, He will make a way for him to get out (from every difficulty). 3. And He will provide him from (sources) he never could imagine. And whosoever puts his trust in Allaah, then He will suffice him” [al-Talaaq 65:2,3].

May Allah guide us all, ameen.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I dont know if this has been said before, but its quiet permissable for male doctor to treat a female, if there is none female doctor availabe.

Seeking treatment is not obligatory in Islam.

And finally, if people want to become Doctors, Nurses, Nuclear scientists, Dentists or Pharmacist they should go and do it as long as they see it is Halal. But dont drag ISlam into it and make it out as if by doing so you are doing a big service to Islam.

If anyone really wants to serve Islam than spend five years learning the sciences of Islam, Muslims and Islam need Female Muslims scholars more than doctors or nurses. I guesss for some thats too boring,... being a doctor is much more exciting. :rolleyes:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Here we go.

Turn every issue into gender debate.

[Emelianenko]

I dont know if this has been said before, but its quiet permissable for male doctor to treat a female, if there is none female doctor availabe.

For one brother..how many of us would actually go out of our way to ensure our women folk are seen by a female doctor??? ive noticed tht when muslims press and argue their their women folk are seen to by a female doctor they have no choice but to arrange for it.

Another thing for the brothers here..we talk so much about the Gheerah of a man...a scenario..ur wife has to go into labour..and they say aaaaaah only male doctors around...wat then???? or does the issue of our Gheerah go out the window now and a male doctor is sufficient?

[Salman Al-Farsi]

For one brother..how many of us would actually go out of our way to ensure our women folk are seen by a female doctor??? ive noticed tht when muslims press and argue their their women folk are seen to by a female doctor they have no choice but to arrange for it.

Another thing for the brothers here..we talk so much about the Gheerah of a man...a scenario..ur wife has to go into labour..and they say aaaaaah only male doctors around...wat then???? or does the issue of our Gheerah go out the window now and a male doctor is sufficient?

In the issue of necessity (Daroora) it does go out of the window because its permissable for female to be seen by male doctor in absence of female doctors.

But its not permsisable for sisters to touch or check men whilst their medic training.

Anyway, everythinng has already been said.

[Al-Irhaab]

there is an inherrent difference between when a muslim male doctor has to treat a female and when a muslim female doctor has to treat a male...

the time when this occured in the muslim world was at war... not just for the sake of it...:rolleyes:

how can any sister justify doing anal checks on men just to ensure that there is not a chance he might have piles or something :rolleyes:

too many women have no shame nowadays :rolleyes:

[Reptile]

You won't find that in the West, i.e. 'Islamic Environment'. If sisters want to do medicine, they should find out if they can do it in a halal environment in a Muslim country, though I don't know how easy that will be...since these 'Muslim countries' are so hellbent on following the decadent west.

Ok then UC lets just have all the female doctors leaving the west to travel to Islamic countries, and leave the Muslim sisters to bear the impact of this, I mean I guess its ok for the sisters leaving in a western society continuously face humiliation when they are assisted by male doctors and there aren’t any Muslim female ones around.

[Emelianenko]

there is an inherrent difference between when a muslim male doctor has to treat a female and when a muslim female doctor has to treat a male...

the time when this occured in the muslim world was at war... not just for the sake of it...:rolleyes:

how can any sister justify doing anal checks on men just to ensure that there is not a chance he might have piles or something :rolleyes:

too many women have no shame nowadays :rolleyes:
That works both ways bro..u cud argue brothers checking out female patients and doing all the routine checks..

No shame nowadays :rolleyes:

[Al-Irhaab]

That works both ways bro..u cud argue brothers checking out female patients and doing all the routine checks..

No shame nowadays :rolleyes:

unlike women men are not honour... the muslims of the past who were doctors did all these checks on women...

now dont get me wrong i aint against muslim women being doctors.. but lets face it... there is a halal way of doing things and a haram way... they dont have to treat men... they can treat women only... but so many of them choose not to because the money is tooooo tempting :rolleyes:

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

i think you have a problem reading... well either that or your apparant love of feminism has blinded your sight... did u not read where i said i dont have a problem with women doctors... :rolleyes: alhamdulillah i know sisters who treat only women... i also know of kafir women doctors.. not hard to find as long as u insist... just some women dont see the neccessity of insisting nowadays...

ill treat women ... their is no prohibition on MEN treating women :rolleyes:

[Nawar]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


Exactly. really well said :up: .

Most sisters who become doctors do choose to treat women only. The problem is obviously during the degree, Im sure though that the courses require you to treat men...so that could be problematic. Would the uni make exceptions.hmmm...should have asked all this from the sister medics at uni Yusra...theres plenty of them mashallah....im sure they must sort something out for them.....

Nawarrrrrrr :up:

[Reptile]

their is no prohibition on MEN treating women
Does this work both ways? or are men just an exception?

[Al-Irhaab]

Does this work both ways? or a men just an exception?

the male is allowed to treat the female... this is how it was in the muslim world in the past.... the reason being that a woman is allowed to show her awrah for medical reasons...

however for a woman to treat a man, and especially a kaafir man... and to treat him in respect to specific private issues then their is no precedent for this at all.. the only time it has occured is in time of war...

[Nawar]

See now if there was no option except for me to see a male, and it could very well be some brother doctor.........dont know about anyone else but my days, I would avoid it full stop. No problem, Id live with the pain :outta: ...and if I was in A&E or the hospital......Id leave.........how embarassinggggggggggg....no way ...nope, no way....:embar:

[Hayaa]

i went to a dars where the speaker stressed on having Muslim females in medics, the speaker spoke about her experience where barring one, she had an all male surgical team for her treatment , and wut was she suffering from ? breast cancer [ i agree with u there, ur_yusra]

bro salman al-farsi said:

its quiet permissable for male doctor to treat a female, if there is none female doctor availabe.
it'd be more appropriate if we have female docs for females - it's not prohibited a profession, is it...?


In the issue of necessity (Daroora) it does go out of the window because its permissable for female to be seen by male doctor in absence of female doctors.
Daroora doesn't go out of the window if you happen to be an uneducated, orthodox village man living on the outskirts of mountaineous region [like seen in the aftermath of the pak earth quake]

many women lost their lives, cuz their hubbies wouldn't let a stranger [male] touch their women...

there are doctors - male or female - who work for the welfare of Muslims [and you cant deny there aren't any...], those who work for the sake of Allah [surely, treating someone is giving them hope, making them happy - all with the intention of pleasing Allah -subhanu wata'alla] and of course it's Allah alone who gives shifa

akhi, we do need female doctors, not for treating men, not necessarily - but atleast for the womenfolk of Islam

[Salman Al-Farsi]

i dont really care if people become Doctors or Street clearners. ITs just a profession and eveyr profession can be used for Islamic purpose.

Just dont make it out as if being a Doctor is fulfilling some BIG Islamic obligation .. because ITS not.

ITs fardh (mandatory) to learn the deen of Allah Tala and become scholars of Islam and I dont see anyone arguing about that.

[Al-Irhaab]

i dont really care if people become Doctors or Street clearners. ITs just a profession and eveyr profession can be used for Islamic purpose.

Just dont make it out as if being a Doctor is fulfilling some BIG Islamic obligation .. because ITS not.

ITs fardh (mandatory) to learn the deen of Allah Tala and become scholars of Islam and I dont see anyone arguing about that.

hey man i been arguing that for ages... what do you mean you havent seen anyone arguing about that :rolleyes:

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

yeah if a kaafir women comes to him and he has to treat her then theirs no problem with it.. as long as he has no fear of zina etc... if a muslim woman comes to him then he should advise her to see a female if she cannot then their is no problem with him treating her

[Nawar]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


I think its embarassing when a bro has to serve at the bank, let alone as a doctor dealing with personal issues. Id die, yep, even if you have your husband with you, Id still die. Its bad enough with non-muslim females. Ok, I think Im nearly getting over it. Sorry.

Is a muslim woman allowed to be seen by, more then likely...a perverse jahil non-muslim male doctor??? Because THAT is the situation sisters face in this society??? What is the ruling on that??? A NON MUSLIM MAN????? Or does the ruling of men allowed to see women cover that??? Im asking a genuine question???

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

well state a precedent from the people of the past for this...

so your saying a sister should have no problem starting at a kaafirs testicles and penis and touching it and making sure its ok, as this is part of the treatement required and she should be fine doing it? :rolleyes:

the rules for life for men are different to those for women... anyone who has problems with that should check their iman... allah (SwT) made men and women different... women are honour men are not... for any husband to be happy with his wife being in a room with a naked man and treating him or checking for an anal fissure etc? i mean if you dont have a problem with that then ... :rolleyes:

[Al-Irhaab]

I think its embarassing when a bro has to serve at the bank, let alone as a doctor dealing with personal issues. Id die, yep, even if you have your husband with you, Id still die. Its bad enough with non-muslim females.

Ok, I think Im nearly getting over it. Sorry.

Is a muslim woman allowed to be seen by, more then likely...a perverse jahil non-muslim male doctor??? Because THAT is the situation sisters face in this society??? What is the ruling on that??? A NON MUSLIM MAN????? Or does the ruling of men allowed to see women cover that??? Im asking a genuine question???

a muslim female is allowed to be treated by a muslim male doctor... however it is better that she is treated by a female muslim doctor... that is why i am not against sisters becoming doctors... its how they become doctors and who they treat afterwards that the problem lies in... i mean why cant sisters set up female clinics if they truly are becoming doctors for the sake of allah (Swt) and the muslim community... why choose to still treat men...

[Nawar]

I dont think there is a need to be so disgustingly crude Al Irhaab...you should edit your post....you should be able to illustrate your point without the need for crude talk which quite frankly, lacks any hayya.

[Al-Irhaab]

Quite A good Fatwa MAshallah very similar to the hanafi ruling aswell so is universal

Question :


Could you please clarify for me a problem about the choice of doctors. I was told by my teacher that when the patient is female, the choice of the doctors should be first, a female Muslim, a non_Muslim female, a Muslim male and then a non-Muslim male. It is only when no female doctors are present in a particular specialised field, then only can we choose the male doctor.
My friend mentioned that her teacher said that a Muslim doctor whether male or female should be the first choice, and then a non-Muslim male or female.
I am puzzled. I understand that as Muslim doctors, they should be more amanah than non-Muslims but shouldn't the point about aurat figure more importantly, and hence the avoidance of fitnah?
A number of my female friends have chosen male Muslim obstetricians to monitor their pregnancies and then to deliver their babies while there are many female Muslim and non Muslim obstetricians around.
Please advice ustaz.
thanks
may Allah bless you for your help, InsyaAllah.
Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.
the Lord of the Worlds, and peace and blessings be upon the one who was sent as a Mercy to the worlds, our Prophet Muhammad, and upon all his family and companions.
There follows a number of principles and guidelines on the issue of: Looking for the purposes of medical treatment.
Firstly: the ‘awrah [that which should be covered] of a man is the area between the navel and the knees, because the Prophet http://63.175.194.25/images/saws.gif (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “What is between the navel and the knees is ‘awrah.” (A hasan hadeeth narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood and al-Daaraqutni). This is the view of the majority of scholars.
Secondly: all of a woman is ‘awrah and is to be covered before “strangers’ (non-mahrams), because of the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):
“And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen” [al-Ahzaab 33:53]
and because of the hadeeth, “All of a woman is ‘awrah.” (Narrated by al-Tirmidhi with a saheeh isnaad).
This is the correct view according to the madhhab of the Hanbalis, one of the two views of the Maalikis and one of the two views of the Shaafa’is.
Thirdly: deliberately looking at ‘awraat is one of the things that are strongly forbidden. One is required to lower the gaze and refrain from looking at them, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts). That is purer for them. Verily, Allaah is All-Aware of what they do. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts)…” [al-Noor 24:30-31]
The Prophet http://63.175.194.25/images/saws.gif (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “A man should not look at the ‘awrah of another man and a woman should not look at the ‘awrah of another woman.” (Narrated by Muslim).
And he said to ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him): “Do not look at the thigh of anyone, living or dead.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood; it is a saheeh hadeeth).
Fourthly: if it is not permissible to look at ‘awraat it is also not permissible to touch any of them, even when there is some cloth or clothing in between. The Prophet http://63.175.194.25/images/saws.gif (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I do not shake hands with women.” (Narrated by Maalik and Ahmad. This is a saheeh hadeeth). And he said: “If one of you were to be stabbed in the head with an iron needle, this would be better for him than if he were to touch a woman whom it is not permitted for him to touch.” (Narrated by Tabaraani; it is a saheeh hadeeth). Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Where it is forbidden to look it is also forbidden to touch, and is more forbidden, because that is more pleasurable.”
Fifthly: things that are considered to be ‘awrah are of varying types and degrees. The thing that is “most ‘awrah” is the private parts, front and back. Then there are things that are “less ‘awrah” such as a man's thighs in front of another man.
Sixthly: young children under the age of seven are not subject to the rulings on ‘awrah. The ‘awrah of boys who are able to distinguish matters – between the ages of seven and ten – is the private parts, and the ‘awrah of girls of the same age is the area from the navel to the knees. (All of this is in cases where there is no fear of fitnah). The ‘awrah of a dead person is the same as the ‘awrah of a living person. To be on the safe side, a hermaphrodite (person whose sex is not clear) should be considered to be a woman in terms of ‘awrah, because such a person may be a woman.
Sixthly: in cases of necessity, things that are ordinarily forbidden are permitted. The scholars are agreed that it is permissible for a male doctor to look at the site of illness in a woman when necessary, within the limits set by sharee’ah. Similarly, a male doctor may look at the ‘awrah of a sick man. But he should look at the site of the complaint only as much as is necessary (and no more). The rulings apply to female doctors as to male doctors. This ruling is based on the idea of giving priority to the principle of saving life over the principle of covering the ‘awrah, in cases where there is a conflict between the two.
Seventhly: “Necessity should be evaluated according to its degree.” Although it is permissible to uncover, look and touch, etc., for the purposes of treatment in cases of urgent necessity, it is not permissible under any circumstances to go beyond the Islamic limits or ignore the regulations set out by sharee’ah. These regulations are as follows:

Priority should be given to the treatment of men by men and women by women. When a sick women needs to be uncovered (for medical treatment), preference should be given to a qualified female Muslim doctor; if such is not available, the order of preference is then a female non-Muslim doctor, a male Muslim doctor, and lastly, a male non-Muslim doctor. If it is sufficient to be treated by a female general practitioner (GP), she should not go to a male doctor even if he is a specialist. If a specialist is needed, she should go to a female specialist, but if one is not available, then the female patient may uncover in front of a male specialist. If the female specialist is not qualified to treat the problem and the situation calls for the involvement of a highly-skilled, qualified male specialist, then this is permissible. If there is a male specialist who is more highly-skilled and more experienced than the female doctor, the female patient should still not go to him unless the situation requires this extra level of experience and skill. By the same token, a man should not be treated by a woman if there is a man who is able to carry out the treatment.
It is not permissible to uncover more than is necessary; only the area that needs to be examined should be uncovered. At the same time, the doctor should try to lower his gaze as much as he can, and he should be aware that he is doing something which is basically forbidden, and he should seek the forgiveness of Allaah for anything he may do which oversteps the mark.
If describing the problem is sufficient, then it is not permissible to uncover; if it is possible to examine the site of the problem by just looking, then it is not permissible to touch; if it is possible to examine by touching with a cloth over the site, then it is not permissible to remove the cloth, and so on.
In allowing a woman to be treated by a male doctor, it is conditional that she not be alone in the room with him. So the woman has to be accompanied by her husband, mahram or another woman who is trustworthy.
The male doctor must also be trustworthy and above suspicion with regard to his character and religious commitment. In this case it is sufficient to take people at face value.
The more something is regarded as ‘awrah, the more strictly should the rules be applied. The author of Kafaayat al-Akhyaar said: “Know that the basic idea in cases of need is to look at the face and hands. In order to look at the rest of the body, there should be a certain and definite need, and in order to look at the private parts, there should be an extra-certain need. Hence one should be extremely strict in cases such as childbirth and the circumcision of young girls.”
The need for treatment should be urgent, such as sickness, unbearable pain, worrying weakness and so on. If there is no sickness or urgency, then it is not permissible to uncover the ‘awrah, such as in cases where a person imagines he is sick or in cases of cosmetic issues.
All of the above applies only in cases where there is no fear of fitnah or provocation of desire on the part of either the doctor or the patient.
Finally, it is essential to remember and fear Allaah with regard to this important matter. The sharee’ah has set out many precautions in order to be on the safe side, and has prescribed clear and serious guidelines. One of the most widespread problems of our times is the lax attitude that people have taken towards the issue of uncovering the ‘awrah in clinics and hospitals, as if it is permissible to show everything to a doctor and to do any forbidden thing in his presence. The same applies to educational programs which are brought without censorship from the kaafir countries, imitating them by taking a lax attitude to such matters in the case of education, training and information.
The Muslims have to pay attention to educating qualified women in the various specialties, so that needs may be met. They should also draw up schedules and organize shifts in hospitals and clinics in such a way that Muslim women need never be put in an awkward position, or feel neglected or be subjected to the annoyance of a male doctor when she asks for a female doctor to treat her.
We ask Allaah to help us to understand our religion properly and to help us to follow the rules of sharee’ah and take care of the rights of the Muslims. And He is the Source of help and the Guide to the Straight Path.


Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

[Emelianenko]

Al-irhaab..u would have no problem with a male doctor say treating ur wife if she went into labour?? and no female doc around???

[Al-Irhaab]

I dont think there is a need to be so disgustingly crude Al Irhaab...you should edit your post....you should be able to illustrate your point without the need for crude talk which quite frankly, lacks any hayya.

there is nothing crude about what i said... i gave you standard medical procedure.. i mean this is what sisters have to do who choose to treat men... if sisters have issues with just reading about it imagine what issues they have with treating it...

there are so many angles to view this with but some people... not yourself... have tried to just make this into a gender debate when it is not...

i mean the justification that why cant i treat men if my husband can treat women says it all really :rolleyes:

the answer.... ah never mind ive already stated it

[dhakiyya]

First of all define 'so much good'.

Also, know that the preservation of Eeman and the deen of Allah comes before any Medicine whereby you have to touch members of the opposite sex who are completely strange (and lose your haya in the process), when there is absolutely no need to do so. The preservation of Islam comes before the preservation of life. This is a point in fiqh, and if you don't agree with me, ask any scholar. A Muslimah doing Medicine in a haraam environment is doing just about as any good as those who say 'but I live in the West so why should I wear hijab?'.

However, its okay for us to tell Muslims not to be doctors in this country and then rely on the non Muslims (and insist they give us doctors the same gender as us) when we need medical treatment??

[Al-Irhaab]

Al-irhaab..u would have no problem with a male doctor say treating ur wife if she went into labour?? and no female doc around???

emel bro man seriously u need to read my posts man before u ask this...

ive said 101 times their is nothing wrong with more muslim female doctors.... ive said that a muslim female should ONLY be treated my another female... ive already stated that if under extreme circumstances and frankly i dont see how labour is one because damn man you had enough time to prepare, there are no female doctors whatsoever like say when the earthquake happened in pakistan then yes it is perfectly fine for a muslim woman to be seen to by a male doctor...

i dont understand where the conflict in the above is :rolleyes:

[Hayaa]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]:up: :up:

[MMS]

Al-irhaab..u would have no problem with a male doctor say treating ur wife if she went into labour?? and no female doc around???
he wouldnt have a problem because nobody wants to marry him :up:

[Nawar]

there is nothing crude about what i said... i gave you standard medical procedure.. i mean this is what sisters have to do who choose to treat men... if sisters have issues with just reading about it imagine what issues they have with treating it...

there are so many angles to view this with but some people... not yourself... have tried to just make this into a gender debate when it is not...

i mean the justification that why cant i treat men if my husband can treat women says it all really :rolleyes:

the answer.... ah never mind ive already stated it


Yes it was crude, and there was no need for it, you should edit it. 'Seeing the doc about personal issues' is a statment that suffices what you were trying to say, there is no need to be disgustingly explicit.
Sisters do not have to do such things, nor do they want to.

I dont see the gender debate,and no one started one, Yusra asked a genuine question, and quite frankly, someone has yet to answer it.

[Emelianenko]

emel bro man seriously u need to read my posts man before u ask this...

ive said 101 times their is nothing wrong with more muslim female doctors.... ive said that a muslim female should ONLY be treated my another female... ive already stated that if under extreme circumstances and frankly i dont see how labour is one because damn man you had enough time to prepare, there are no female doctors whatsoever like say when the earthquake happened in pakistan then yes it is perfectly fine for a muslim woman to be seen to by a male doctor...

i dont understand where the conflict in the above is :rolleyes: Nah bro reason why im saying is...its known..Muslim couples obv prepare before hand tht ok we want Female doc..come on the day these sods always got summat up their sleeves..oh sorry no female doc..male doc only..and sadly some couples have had to undergo tht..so this is where issue of daroora comes in..whereas some bros i kno mashaAllah staunch..and wont budge till they find a female doc and their mrs is in labour going thru all pain and whatknot..in tht state where the mrs is screaming in pain and the docs r tryna be funny sods wid u..where do u draw the line of "daroora" and say k Male doc can handle it.

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

there is no comebacks this is not a cussing match... :rolleyes:

no need to get worked up and start typing in large font its not going to make what your saying correct at all... :rolleyes:

ive already pasted the ruling which states it is permissible for the men to treat women... neccessity is the issue... if a woman comes to me and says i need to be treated... i understand already their is a shortage of dentists and i know that there are very few female dentists so i treat her... if she can be seen by a female then i will send her to a female especially if its a muslim female... there are always more male doctors dentists etc around... that is why males tend to see males and females whilst females see females...

alhamdulillah ur saying that sisters dont wish to treat males then thats good... what is the debate about...

the brothers are fine with treating sisters so to them their way and to you yours :rolleyes:

[Al-Irhaab]

Nah bro reason why im saying is...its known..Muslim couples obv prepare before hand tht ok we want Female doc..come on the day these sods always got summat up their sleeves..oh sorry no female doc..male doc only..and sadly some couples have had to undergo tht..so this is where issue of daroora comes in..whereas some bros i kno mashaAllah staunch..and wont budge till they find a female doc and their mrs is in labour going thru all pain and whatknot..in tht state where the mrs is screaming in pain and the docs r tryna be funny sods wid u..where do u draw the line of "daroora" and say k Male doc can handle it.

bro that daroora is up to the people there to decide to be honest.. theirs no fixed issue as to what state neccessity kicks in... personally i would arrange it with muslim female previously as my friends do for their wives that way you know they are not going to mess you around... otherwise your right these issues do come about... again to repeat i have no problem with sisters as doctors etc... its just how they choose to practice their medicine that causes the problems... sisters should work on sisters and learn the specialities concerning sisters such as childbirth, gynacology, breast cancer etc etc... that way sisters wont have to go to men to be treated...

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

well find a bin and throw up in it then...

the fact of the matter is that in any islamic society you will see that men have treated men and women ... and women have only treated women that has been the way under the taliban under countless other islamic rulers... if u have issues with this that is ur concern.. the fact of the matter is you will never have enough women doctors to satisfy the need of the female community and in there is the hikmah for men to treat women aswell as other men... otherwise then you would never be able to look after the medical needs of the female community and then youd start calling us all brutes and oppressive :rolleyes:

[aurorascopic]

i think it's really clear where everyone stands on their opinion on this topic so-lets call it quits?
i think as bro salman al farsi said, if you think its halal then be it if you think its haram then fine, dont be a medic or dont praise those who are-its obsviously very clear there are mixed opinions on the discussion and i think enough of these opinions have just been repeated numerously-

[Chained_Water]

The fact is that in this country it is impossible for doctors both male and female to be so picky about who they treat unless they have private practices. There is a shortage of doctors/dentists in the NHS and they cannot turn patients away just because of their sex.

In these circumstances I'm sure both male and female doctors would deem it a despensation out of necesity to treat members of the opposite gender.

Personally I don't even think anyone has the right to judge a female doctor who treats male patients. It is hardly freemixing :rolleyes: It's looking after a sick person.. on wards there is little privacy so you're not really "alone" with them.. in surgeries each patient gets all of about five minutes. It's a professional setting with the aim or treating a sick person.. it's not a nightclub or a bar or something :rolleyes:

How many female doctors could set up private practices? How many female Muslims could afford it?

So if female Muslim doctors work under the NHS and are available to treat female muslim women because of it ..they must also treat men.. if they didn't, women would have no female doctors to treat them either because they'd all have got the sack for discrimination.

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

well actually theirs a large shortage of dentists full stop...

so you acknowledge that their are not enough female doctors right... so if the male muslim doctors refused to treat the sisters youd be ok with them going and seeing kaafir perverted male doctors right....

alhamdulillah i dont forsake my deen by seeing women patients... i mean if you want to go down that line do you forsake your deen by studying in a university with men or working with men? :rolleyes:

why only a few muslim men why not all muslim men stop seeing female patients and then we shall see how many sisters actually get treated in the muslim world or even in uk... i mean my friends treat women and they say how glad they are that at least they can come to a muslim man rather then having to go to kaafir men, because they cant find enough females ... a point that has been acknowledged by all the sisters on this thread that there are not enough sisters in the medical proffession... but obviously thats not important to u... whats important is that you can stick up for a perceived injustice in that women are stopped from treating men but men can treat women :rolleyes:

[aurorascopic]

i think it's really clear where everyone stands on their opinion on this topic so-lets call it quits?
if you think its halal then be it if you think its haram then fine, dont be a medic or dont praise those who are-
its obsviously very clear there are mixed opinions on the discussion and i think enough of these opinions have just been repeated numerously-

~ahem~ *bump post*

[Al-Irhaab]

The fact is that in this country it is impossible for doctors both male and female to be so picky about who they treat unless they have private practices. There is a shortage of doctors/dentists in the NHS and they cannot turn patients away just because of their sex.

In these circumstances I'm sure both male and female doctors would deem it a despensation out of necesity to treat members of the opposite gender.

Personally I don't even think anyone has the right to judge a female doctor who treats male patients. It is hardly freemixing :rolleyes: It's looking after a sick person.. on wards there is little privacy so you're not really "alone" with them.. in surgeries each patient gets all of about five minutes. It's a professional setting with the aim or treating a sick person.. it's not a nightclub or a bar or something :rolleyes:

How many female doctors could set up private practices? How many female Muslims could afford it?

So if female Muslim doctors work under the NHS and are available to treat female muslim women because of it ..they must also treat men.. if they didn't, women would have no female doctors to treat them either because they'd all have got the sack for discrimination.

heres where ur mistaken... a sister can work as a gp and only see female patients... all she has to do is agree it with her head and as their are a shortage of gps full stop 99 percent wont have a problem with it... all they will do is only pass on female patients to register with her.... thats how its done in a dental surgery aswell under the nhs... all you do is send female patients only to the dentist and their is no decriminatory set back in that...

if they want to work in a hospital then work in the womens ward and youll only have to treat females... or work as a gynacologist or in child birth or as a breast cancer specialist or the countless of other women only specialisations ... this way you wont have to see men...

if not then to set up a nhs clinic for women and women related problems is also possible...

its just a matter of whether sisters choose to do it or not...

[Chained_Water]

heres where ur mistaken... a sister can work as a gp and only see female patients... all she has to do is agree it with her head and as their are a shortage of gps full stop 99 percent wont have a problem with it... all they will do is only pass on female patients to register with her.... thats how its done in a dental surgery aswell under the nhs... all you do is send female patients only to the dentist and their is no decriminatory set back in that...

if they want to work in a hospital then work in the womens ward and youll only have to treat females... or work as a gynacologist or in child birth or as a breast cancer specialist or the countless of other women only specialisations ... this way you wont have to see men...

if not then to set up a nhs clinic for women and women related problems is also possible...

its just a matter of whether sisters choose to do it or not... Oh ok.. that's good if it can be arranged :up:

I didn't think it was possible in normal GP surgeries.. 'cuz surely if there is a shortage that would mean less flexibility.

But again how are sisters meant to get out of treating men etc during training, I assume you don't have much choice or leeway at that stage?

[aurorascopic]

oh lord! why are we still repeating the same points of discussion..
why am i not reading-
'hmm ok interesting point brother/sister if thats what you believe, however i still remain firm on my stance in this discussion, thank you for sharing your point of view-i now have a broader view on this topic with regards to my own'

the above would just be so excellant in stopping this kind of..'cussing' match, trying to 'proove' or 'make' ones point..everyone's said their points, and others have said what they make of those points-end of discussion-each to their own?please?

[Chained_Water]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

Yeh you know actually I think most sisters would be more comfortable having a non-muslim male see them than a muslim male, because to a non-muslim it's normal he will just do his job.. with a muslim it will be like err :nervous: ..far more awkward, uncomfortable and embarrassing because you'll both be painfully aware of whats going on.

[mara]

~ahem~ *bump post*
You are ignored :embar: because ur yusra likes to talk with Al Irhaab and after what we can read they will discuss this in the next 40 pages :p too... with the same result obviously:D .

[1 ummah]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


Exactly what i was gonna say!:up: i am sure that a pious sister would not prefer a Muslim man (if she really has to be treated by a male doctor) to a kaafir.. a kaafir man is not interested in muslim women!! Also, im sorry to say but some Muslim men can be far worse than kaafir men.. and yes it would feel VERY awkward.. thats for sure!! my friend's been through it.. she was crying before she came in! alhamdulillah its because of her hayaa'...

[Chained_Water]

[edit: post deleted at user's request] Plus also there is far LESS chance of fitnah or anything dodgy happening with a non-muslim male.. 'cuz in most cases they would not give hijaabi/ninja's a second look or be dodgy with them.. whereas muslim males could try to get too friendly with a sister :torture:

I know some sisters who wear niqaab when going to jummah/islamic talks etc but not when in their lessons with non-muslim blokes.. they dnt believe niqaab is fardh and when asked why a sister said:

"Lets be honest, a non-muslim bloke is not gonna give you hassle or eye you up. When you come out of jummah or you're at a talk the bro's are checking out the sisters and on a hijaabi hunt. That's how it is.. it's more fitnah with "brothers" because they will find muslim girls more attractive than non-muslim men would."

That about sums it up I think.

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

youd rather be treated by a kaafir old man... how many paedophiles and rapists do you think there are amongst the kaafir... go and see what these 50 to 60 year old men get up to... i mean if u prefer to be treated by them then a pious god fearing muslim then thats ur choice, the fatawa above state that the person of choice should be unscrupalous etc.. i think your wrong that most sisters would choose to be treated by a kaafir then a muslim with taqwa and one who understand honour...

again i would stop my wife... and u shld be fine with that... i mean you did say so urself its wrong... but now your trying to say its allowed cus men do it :rolleyes: strange indeed... do you want to do everything men do

fortunately alhamdulillah in life their are double standards... men are allowed to go out late, women are not, men can show their hair women cannot, men can travel alone, women cannot... these are standards that have been set by islam ... again if you have issues with these then that is your concern, islam did not come down to make men and women equal, it came to give them both rights and responsibilities...

men have gheera, a natural instinct of protection of the honour of their women... allah (Swt) curses the man with no gheerah... the man who would let his wife treat the private issues of a man with no problem really needs to learn what gheerah means... :rolleyes:

so again you havent answered... what would you do with all those sisters who cant find doctors... would u rather they go to kaafir doctors... say in an islamic state where there would still be a higher rate of male doctors then females... then who would u send the women to... or would u just let them suffer... :rolleyes:

oh and make ur mind up first u said men should only treat men and women should only treat women now ur saying its ok to treat crossgender... or was that the issue all along u just want men and women to be the same

oh and u cant be sacked for treating women only ... you can set up nhs clinics for women only... you can take only women onto your personal register... just involves you speaking to your head practicioner... and you can work in female words and specialistations... as i have already said in one of my earliar posts

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]

slandering is haram you should fear allah (swt) and watch your tongue... i did not say in my posts that i have a desire to treat female patients, i said i have no problem with treating them, you should not let your pride nor your anger lead you to slander a muslim in order to win a debate...

did the prophet (saw) curse the woman with no gheera? the hadith is in relation to men and how they act to their women folk in regards to preserving the honour of the woman... it has nothing to do with the jealousy of women ...

you felt less perverted in america then turkey perhaps this is because the muslims you saw were not god fearing... what was specifically stated, is that you said you would prefer to go to see an old kaafir rather then a muslim bearded male... now what im asking you is if you were put in a situation where you had to uncover your awrah you would rather go and see a kaafir male, who denies allah (Swt) who has no morality, who has probs committed zina and will commit zina with anything that moves, who in all honest wouldnt be surprsising if he was a rapist or paedophile, or as is common amongst doctors necrophile, then a muslim god fearing brother who understand honour and the rules and regulations of islam?

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


Priority should be given to the treatment of men by men and women by women. When a sick women needs to be uncovered (for medical treatment), preference should be given to a qualified female Muslim doctor; if such is not available, the order of preference is then a female non-Muslim doctor, a male Muslim doctor, and lastly, a male non-Muslim doctor.


from the fatwa

yup im fine with it because i know their is a neccessity for it not that i desire it...

you have so little taqwa you cannot even apologise for slandering a muslim... no point in continuing an islamic discussion with someone who refuses to keep the discussion islamic...

la hawla wa la quwwat illah billah

[~*UC*~]

Just wanted to say that this thread has become really lame, so I won't take part in it anymore, I've said what I had to. It seems to me now that some people would rather go with their whims and desires. To those who are serious and really want to Medicine the halal way, make hijrah. In fact we should all as Muslims try to find a way out of the West. That way we can all be docs and be treated by members of our own gender :up:
If you want to stay in the west, you can get anyone treating you, from a Muslim female/male to a gay man/lesbian. :rolleyes:

[Chained_Water]

I think sister ur_yusra and bro al-irhaab should have their own special forum :D

:torture:

[Al-Irhaab]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


وَيْل ٌ لِكُلِّ هُمَزَة ٍ لُمَزَة

[mara]

I think sister ur_yusra and bro al-irhaab should have their own special forum :D

:torture:
They are the perfect guests for the radio: one woman-man show :p . Give them the topic and you have what to listen:D

[Nawar]

[edit: post deleted at user's request]


Ameen inshallah.......:)

I wonder what decision Unique Muslimah has made mind, do enlighten us sis :D

Back to B-lactam Inhibitors then.

[Unique Muslimah]

Ameen inshallah.......:)

I wonder what decision Unique Muslimah has made mind, do enlighten us sis :D

Back to B-lactam Inhibitors then.
Assalamu'Alaikum:)
Well, I’ve been thinking and thinking and thinking about this whole thing, I had second thoughts, thirds and fourths. I’m still in the whole thinking process, but Alhamdulillah, I just wanted to know what you lot thought of the situation and just wanted to hear other opinions, and I definitely got a taste of what a few of you thought.
I think that if I do decide to go into medicine, Id probably opt for something like pediatrics or gynecology and obstetrics, as I was planning initially to specialize in one of them. I especially felt the need for gynecologists as currently in the UK, as a lot of people have mentioned, there is an great deficiency in female gynecologists and I feel that for most women, it is very awkward to be treated by a male, and I thought that InshaAllah if I can go into it, and I am interested in it, then why not, because I know that there are not near enough females in this line of specialism. And lets face it, Muslims have lotsa kids mashaAllah :p and so there would need to be female gynecologists to deliver all those babies:rolleyes: and Alhamdulillah our Ummah is ever expanding..
Anyways, Allah swt is the best of all planners, what ever He decrees shall befall..Who knows, I might not even get into med:p

[Nawar]

Assalamu'Alaikum:)
Well, I’ve been thinking and thinking and thinking about this whole thing, I had second thoughts, thirds and fourths. I’m still in the whole thinking process, but Alhamdulillah, I just wanted to know what you lot thought of the situation and just wanted to hear other opinions, and I definitely got a taste of what a few of you thought.
I think that if I do decide to go into medicine, Id probably opt for something like pediatrics or gynecology and obstetrics, as I was planning initially to specialize in one of them. I especially felt the need for gynecologists as currently in the UK, as a lot of people have mentioned, there is an great deficiency in female gynecologists and I feel that for most women, it is very awkward to be treated by a male, and I thought that InshaAllah if I can go into it, and I am interested in it, then why not, because I know that there are not near enough females in this line of specialism. And lets face it, Muslims have lotsa kids mashaAllah :p and so there would need to be female gynecologists to deliver all those babies:rolleyes: and Alhamdulillah our Ummah is ever expanding..
Anyways, Allah swt is the best of all planners, what ever He decrees shall befall..Who knows, I might not even get into med:p


LOL at muslims having loads of children....But yeh, I agree, specialising in something like that is a brill idea...subhanallah, I cant imagine the joy, actually I can as I am a muslim woman, the joy when you get to a hospital or GP surgery, and you see a hijabi :inlove: :inlove: :inlove: ....

Inshallah, I would say, that if you can, beacause the only real issue is if, during your degree or training, you may have to physically treat men etc...I dont know to what extent at degree level, maybe you could research in to the uni course and stuff, but just clarify also with a scholar on the exact permissability of this, as it is an important issue studying in this country. Applies to both bros and sis's who want to do such courses.

Indeed, whatever Allah (swt) decrees....and no doubt that whatever is best for you will happen inshallah :)

[dhakiyya]

I don't know if you are still arguing about this issue (given the post count you probably are..........)

Didn't many Muslim women (ra) at the time of Muhammad :saw: go and treat the wounded on the battlefield? Yes they did cause I'm reading the seerah at the moment. Some women fought in the battles and one woman whose name I can't remember (ra) even defended the prophet :saw: fighting off kaafiroon who were trying to kill him.....

........those women who fought and those that didn't fight treated the wounded on the battlefield.

doesn't this mean that where necessary, female doctors can treat male patients?

[puella]

salaams
mashaAllah sister UM for wanting to study medicine. however i feel i have to sideline with one particular view on this topic...there may be times when you may have to carry out a personal examination on a male patient during your degree. i am sure there are many medics here and possibly some doctors who would be able to say the same.

My brother was doing his practical examinations at hospital in his third year and as is the nature of an exam you are not aware of what will be presented to you. there are a series of seven or so bays with a single patient behind each curtain. within each bay lies a patient whoom you have to examine. my brother was going from bay to bay , happily examining the pateints when at one station he came across a gentleman upon whom he had to carry out a detailed examination of his private parts. what was even more horrifying was that gloves were not provided!!

even worse was that the examinee after him was a sister (yes a hijaabi, but besides the point really....sister is a sister). my brother really felt for her, but what can u do...nothing unfortunately.

this isnt designed to put u off at all, but maybe just to relate to u a possible one off incidence that may occur to you, and also to support wht a brother said in an earlier post about the likelihood of such an examination taking place

its pretty much a catch 22 situation really...but inshaAllah make dua and Allah will guide you.

wslms

[puella]

and also , dont u worry one little bit about brothers not wanting to marry you!!..you will be fighting them off all the way! :up:

[Nawar]

^^^

This is what I mean, DURING the degree is where the problem lies, and I have heard that exact same scenerio. I dont know whether its just random, and you may never have to encounter such a thing, or whether you have to. Thats a very problematic situation to put it mildly.

After the degree, no probs, can specialise...

[Emelianenko]

holy moly this thread still going strong :p :p

[Te'oma]

I think sister ur_yusra and bro al-irhaab should have their own special forum :D

:torture:

I think they should get married...they argue like an old married couple :D *ducks and runs away*

[Al-Irhaab]

I think they should get married...they argue like an old married couple :D *ducks and runs away*

you can try ducking all u want ... but as soon as ur canadian behind gets to manchester u getting a beating :torture:

[janathi]

LOL at muslims having loads of children....But yeh, I agree, specialising in something like that is a brill idea...subhanallah, I cant imagine the joy, actually I can as I am a muslim woman, the joy when you get to a hospital or GP surgery, and you see a hijabi :inlove: :inlove: :inlove: ....


:salams

Masha'Allah sis Unique! :inlove: May Allah(swt) indeed make you successfull in all things you do in this life Ameen! and May Allah(swt) grant us all success in the hereafter Ameen! :love:

^ lol sis Nawar, Insha'Allah :inlove: ..I'm really thinking of whether I should do MED or not!..:rolleyes: but the whole load of years puts me off! .:( ...its just so many!

....Insha'Allah in college I will be doing Bioilagy and Chemistry :p I'm apparently good at it ..thats the only reason why I'm continuing to study it Insha'Allah :D I'm not too fond of it, if you know what I mean..;)

..but I love I.T :love: ..I really want to do something in that field too! :) hmm Insha'Allah sisters May Allah(Swt) make it easier for all of us and allow us to be successful Ameen!

:wswrwb:

[elefantebianco]

:salams

Masha'Allah sis Unique! :inlove: May Allah(swt) indeed make you successfull in all things you do in this life Ameen! and May Allah(swt) grant us all success in the hereafter Ameen! :love:

^ lol sis Nawar, Insha'Allah :inlove: ..I'm really thinking of whether I should do MED or not!..:rolleyes: but the whole load of years puts me off! .:( ...its just so many!

....Insha'Allah in college I will be doing Bioilagy and Chemistry :p I'm apparently good at it ..thats the only reason why I'm continuing to study it Insha'Allah :D I'm not too fond of it, if you know what I mean..;)


..but I love I.T :love: ..I really want to do something in that field too! :) hmm Insha'Allah sisters May Allah(Swt) make it easier for all of us and allow us to be successful Ameen!

:wswrwb:

Masha'Allah go for it....im sure u can hack the years...seems so much fun...from my med student mates....good luck may Allah aid you all....

ameen to your dua'a

[ur_yusra]

you can try ducking all u want ... but as soon as ur canadian behind gets to manchester u getting a beating



http://ummah.com/forum/images/smilies/assalam.gif

Long time no see..

How are you doing??

You havent been here for weeks have you??

[Te'oma]

you can try ducking all u want ... but as soon as ur canadian behind gets to manchester u getting a beating :torture:

LOL you could try :D MInd you I could be in trouble if I got a tooth ache while I was there LOL

[Emelianenko]

LOL you could try :D MInd you I could be in trouble if I got a tooth ache while I was there LOL
Dont worry my freinds own their own dental practice :D free treatment is so kewl :D :D

[mara]

If the men are so sensitive toward who are treating them, what do they say about nurses?which from ages are women?

[Al-Irhaab]

Dont worry my freinds own their own dental practice :D free treatment is so kewl :D :D

hey dont try and undercut me ...

if he takes the beats then he can have free treatment..

if he smashes me up or refuses to take the beats... then hes got to pay :torture:

[Emelianenko]

hey dont try and undercut me ...

if he takes the beats then he can have free treatment..

if he smashes me up or refuses to take the beats... then hes got to pay :torture:
Dnt worry ill make sure u both get free treatment :p let the beatings begin :D :D

[~*UC*~]

I don't know if you are still arguing about this issue (given the post count you probably are..........)

Didn't many Muslim women (ra) at the time of Muhammad :saw: go and treat the wounded on the battlefield? Yes they did cause I'm reading the seerah at the moment. Some women fought in the battles and one woman whose name I can't remember (ra) even defended the prophet :saw: fighting off kaafiroon who were trying to kill him.....

........those women who fought and those that didn't fight treated the wounded on the battlefield.

doesn't this mean that where necessary, female doctors can treat male patients?

Hmm, I didn't really want to reply to this thread again. But...I felt I had to when I saw this post :/

Anywayz, here is what Shaykh Munajjid says regarding this issue, on Islamqa.

Praise be to Allaah. </SPAN>
Jihad is not obligatory for women. Ibn Qudaamah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
In order for jihad to be obligatory there are seven conditions: being Muslim, being an adult, being of sound mind, being free, being male, being physically sound and being able to afford it financially. With regard to being Muslim, adult and of sound mind, these are essential conditions for all Islamic duties, because a kaafir is not to be trusted in jihad, an insane person cannot go for jihad and a child is physically weak. Ibn ‘Umar said: “I presented myself to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) on the day of Uhud when I was fourteen years old, and he did not let me join the fighting.” Agreed upon. … With regard to being male, this is stipulated because of the report narrated from ‘Aa’ishah who said: “O Messenger of Allaah, do women have to engage in jihad? He said: “Jihad in which there is no fighting: Hajj and ‘Umrah.” And because women are not able to fight because they are (physically) weak.
From al-Mughni, 9/163.
The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was narrated by Ahmad (25361) and Ibn Maajah (2901); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Ibn Maajah.
Can a woman go out to help the mujaahideen and treat the wounded?
Al-Sarkhasi said in Sharh al-Siyar al-Kabeer (1/184): Chapter on women fighting alongside men and being present in war: He said: we do not like women to fight alongside men in war because a woman does not have the right physical make-up for fighting, as the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) indicated when he said: “This one was not a fighter” (said when he saw the body of a woman slain on the battlefield). And when a woman fights, the ‘awrah of the Muslims may become exposed and the mushrikeen will rejoice at that, and that may be a cause of the mushrikeen increasing their hopes of defeating the Muslims, and they may think that the Muslims are weak because they had to bring the women to fight, so they will say, ‘They need the help of women to fight us.” So this should be avoided. For this reason it is not recommended for women to participate directly in the fighting. But if the Muslims have no choice and are forced to do that, because repelling the kuffaar when necessary by whatever means the Muslims have at their disposal, is permissible, rather it is obligatory. The story of Hunayn is quoted as evidence for that.
At the end of this story it says: Umm Sulaym bint Milhaan, who was fighting that day with a cloth tied around her stomach, said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what do you think about these people who ran away from you and let you down? You should not forgive them if Allaah gives you power over them.” He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “O Umm Sulaym, the forgiveness of Allaah is immense.” She repeated that three times, and each time the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The mercy of Allaah is immense.” In al-Maghaazi it is narrated that she said: “O Messenger of Allaah, should we not kill these who ran away (from the battlefield) as we killed the mushrikeen?” He (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The forgiveness of Allaah is immense.” What greater need can there be for women to fight than this incident when the men fled and abandoned the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). This clearly shows that there is nothing wrong with women fighting when that is essential, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not prevent this woman from fighting on that occasion. But it is not narrated that he gave the women permission to fight on other occasions. There is nothing wrong with old women being present at times of war to tend the wounded, bring water and cook food for the soldiers if they need that, because of the hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Qarat al-Azdi who said: The womenfolk of Khaalid ibn al-Waleed and the womenfolk of the Sahaabah had their sleeves rolled up, bringing water to the mujaahideen and reciting encouraging poetry, when he was fighting the Byzantines. What is meant here is old women, because young women are not allowed to go out for fear of fitnah, and old women can take care of the needs in such situations. And it was narrated that Umm Mutaa’, who was present at Khaybar with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), said: I saw Aslam (one of the Arab tribes) when they complained to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about the difficulties they were facing, so he recommended that they engage in jihad and they responded. I saw that Aslam were the first ones to reach the fortress and the sun did not set on that day until Allaah had enabled us to conquer it.
This clearly shows that she went out with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and he did not forbid her to do so. From this we know that there is nothing wrong with an old woman going out to help the mujaahideen by doing tasks that are appropriate for them. And Allaah is the Source of strength. End quote.
It says in Khishshaaf al-Qinaa’ (3/26): Women are not allowed (to engage in jihad) because they are a source of temptation, as well as not being qualified to fight, because of their