View Full Version : Freedom or Justice? (Just making observation)
I will keep this brief
with all due respect, freedom judging by western definition is utter bull and misleading when one understands it literally
for example FREEDOM = The condition of being free of restraints.
some westerners have the sheer nerve to ridicule ISLAM by saying muslims are NOT allowed to be free.
as a result some muslims respond in a defensive way by saying things akin to 'yes we are' etc which in itself my brothers and sisters is an admission of defeat for western standards have once again been made the arbiters, Islam is not a servant in their palaces of 'democracy' Islam is the criteria wherein to judge right from wrong
u feel me?
lets flip the script, i agree that there is no FREEDOM in islam
let me explain why i say this
look at the definition of freedom in the dictionary, in a nutshell it means
The condition of being free of restraints.
ISLAM encourages restraint in different ways, for example self restraint, now imagine a world wherby every one is free of restraints.
what we have is NO CONTROL without control THERE IS disorder
Question
can order come from disorder?
the answer is obviously NO
now ISLAM says u can be FREE so long as ur freedom of choice, speech or expression does not infringe on the rights of others, so long as ur choices do not hurt Others the prophet Mohammed scws injunction being
"the muslim does not Hurt another"
"want for ur brothers what u want for yourself"
now the moment these so longs which in a nut shell are CONDITIONS exist, the western stance of freedom is out of the window, simply because in order to be truely free there must be no conditions for if conditions exist then restraints do also.
now when restraint exists a system of control does thus a society of order is born.
To close the west can keep their stance of FREEDOM to themselves. mankind is not in need of it.
if one analysed their concept of freedom properly you will see it is pathetic. an specific and contradictory.
hence why they try to brainwash others by saying their concept of freedom is similar to what i have said the islamic one is, basically u are free so long as ur choices do not infringe on the rights of others.
what they have just done is attached a condition to their freedom, along with that condition comes restraint hence we no longer have freedom if freedom by them is defined as a condition of being free of restraints.
what we have instead is something better WE HAVE JUSTICE.
intrested in your views regarding this.
peace b upon those whom follow the guidance
Emelianenko
10-04-06, 03:49 AM
Very good post sis agree with you.
aztema_786
10-04-06, 01:38 PM
sorry but how is this post short??? This is the first forum which I came across that has pages and pages of writing per post.
well about your question about
Can order come from disorder??
the answer is actually yes... order comes from disorder, How can you define order without disorder. Only when something is in disorder will you get the feeling of making it in order.
and the western dictionary is thrash, the defination of freedom written there is free from restraints right? Ask them all to walk the streets nude as the clothes are restraining thier movements (one example). God's dictionary and weak humans dictionary cannot be compared with each other.
And about the part where theres no freedom in ISLAM. If theres too much freedom in islam, you guys won't be here in this forums talking about religion. you all will most probably hanging around with pieces of thrash in bars and pubs. Of course no morality, no sence of courtesy or any moral behaviours. You all will be another group of animal beings that ALLAH won't have to worry much about. Don't say you have no freedom, say you have more constraints higher than others and not no freedom. Justice is not what is required most of the time, everyone's individual morality and goodness is what matters. Islam offers it and others don't;
aztema are u serious this thread is long? and to think i thought i was summarising.
about order coming from disorder we are looking at it two ways, yes if some thing is for example disorganised we tend to wanna organise it. i agree, same way if there is disorder we would want to make it order. however the integral point here is we want to make it. what i am asking is can order come from disorder without physical intervention, the answer is no, so if we choose to live in a free world free in the sense that restraint does not exist then what we have is a world without control hence no order. now of course to bring about this order we would have to choose a way which basicaly gives us some restraint. my point here is we get order by doing this only because we chose a life which has restraints. i am not sure if this is clear but i hope it is. i have trouble explaining stuff clearly some times
as for Islam and my saying there is no freedom, lets not misunderstand, i said there is no freedom in islam BASED ON MY STANCE of how ridiculous this freedom preached by the west is.
the freedom in islam is justice and then some.
Quest, your view of freedom as understood by the West is erroneous. We do not say that there is absolute freedom. We subscribe to a freedom in which one can say and do what one wants as long as it does not physically threaten or physically harm other people. You seem to be attacking a strawman argument.
Jay thanks for ur post
my view stems from the definition of freedom in western dictionarys, am not arguing anything am simply stating the obvious. in ur response to me u have explained freedom (i have no problem with ur explanation) am just saying your so longs there contradicts the definition in the dictionary.
you cant say freedom is such and such so long as such and such etc
then have freedom defined as a condition of being free of restraints
it cant be both ur so longs attach restraints hence contradictory
perhaps u can reconcile all this for me with out adding ur own philosophy
Jay thanks for ur post
my view stems from the definition of freedom in western dictionarys, am not arguing anything am simply stating the obvious. in ur response to me u have explained freedom (i have no problem with ur explanation) am just saying your so longs there contradicts the definition in the dictionary.
you cant say freedom is such and such so long as such and such etc
then have freedom defined as a condition of being free of restraints
it cant be both ur so longs attach restraints hence contradictory
perhaps u can reconcile all this for me with out adding ur own philosophy
Words can have different meanings based on the context they are used in. You'll note that the dictionary has multiple definitions of "freedom" for that very reason. Some apt definitions when discussing politics are:
Political independence.
Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.
The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.
A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference
a political or civil right
Either way the definition i used is contradictory. when compared to the commentary :rolleyes:
miss-islamic
26-02-07, 02:20 AM
Salam Quest,
Kind of digressing but what would you think about this article (http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-001502.htm) on moral and freedom. :O
w.salam
Interesting article sis.
I dont agree with the authors logic all the way through.
infact the only thing i agreed with in that entire argument is hollands legalization of weed in the context it was mentioned in, in the article.
The point he made is realistically true, in fact we had a similar debate about this in class. whilst most of my class mates argued from the angles yes weed should be legalized, and no it shouldnt.
i was trying to tell them to first agree on some kind of a premise for why it should be banned and why it should be allowed.
Banning something, will only tempt people to seek it more.
Legalizing it, will take away the hype, however at the same time it wont solve the social problem. nor reach the goal of removing it.
so the mid way is to educate the people, work on them internally rather then externally first.
Compare this to Rasoululaah scws method of prohibiting alcohol in madina, to that of Americas attempt.
America failed miserably in the war against alcohol whilst rasoululaah scw was successful, reason being America worked on the people externally, whilst prophet muhammed scw worked on them internally.
In order for injuctions to be willfully and rightfully obeyed peoples heart needs to be attached to some sort of purpose, then and only then will laws be effective.
Britians police state attitude is causing more problems then benefit.
Hollands 'free to do what you want' attitude, has not got rid of the problem, but at the same time it is better then britain for problems have not increased.
In regards to prostitution, homosexuality and all the other stuff the author mentioned, i think his logical gun was firing blanks, because he was applying his reasoning from one angle.
so tho this type of unilateral logic can be of benefit in some cases it fails miserably in others.
The author is missing the bigger picture. he has the view of the typical devoid of all purpose individual, the world to such people is a place of enjoyment.
now if this was the case, he would have a point, however there is a purpose of life, many tests which lay in wait for us, which test us to choose right from wrong. the author doesnt understand this nor has this state of mind regarding the world.
so enjoining in the good and forbiding the evil to him is imposing ur beliefs and politics on others. it is a form of injustice rather then the justice people of hikmah see it to be.
In conclution, the article was one sided. and full of logical flaws.
Thats all i have to say for now, what did u think of the article?
I think none of us are free in this life, we humans are driven by 2 things, and all are no matter where you from, Bottom line we driven by Fear and Reward, We do something to recive reward for it or we do something to prevent something bad to happend us. This is proven, and we don't do things just for the sake of doing it, is that been free? Don't matter to me if you can go buttnaked down the street, the reason why you do things is the same reason why everybody else do things. I think ppl are confused today, thay think as long thay receve anything its all fine good or bad don't matter, and forget the dictionary, what is free to you? Read Quran and see what it say about the fear and if Allah will take it away, same thing about the reward, to me its really simple what ever may seem like freedom here its just a part of what we will recive from Allah, and we know what to do to recive it, and whitout those 2 things driven us we will trully be free. (only mine opinion on the subject) salam to all
Barracuda
26-02-07, 06:36 AM
Quest, your view of freedom as understood by the West is erroneous. We do not say that there is absolute freedom. We subscribe to a freedom in which one can say and do what one wants as long as it does not physically threaten or physically harm other people. You seem to be attacking a strawman argument.
Who David Koresh physically threatened?
I think none of us are free in this life, we humans are driven by 2 things, and all are no matter where you from, Bottom line we driven by Fear and Reward, We do something to recive reward for it or we do something to prevent something bad to happend us. This is proven, and we don't do things just for the sake of doing it, is that been free? Don't matter to me if you can go buttnaked down the street, the reason why you do things is the same reason why everybody else do things. I think ppl are confused today, thay think as long thay receve anything its all fine good or bad don't matter, and forget the dictionary, what is free to you? Read Quran and see what it say about the fear and if Allah will take it away, same thing about the reward, to me its really simple what ever may seem like freedom here its just a part of what we will recive from Allah, and we know what to do to recive it, and whitout those 2 things driven us we will trully be free. (only mine opinion on the subject) salam to all
hey i get what u mean, heres something i wrote ages ago. ur post echo's it.
. I noticed the quran used the 2 most effective control deterrents, FEAR AND HOPE. some people fear consequence of sins, so they abstain from sinning, some HOPE for the reward for leaving sin, this was the only 2 ways i could be controlled, so was amazed that ALLAH used these two major genius methods
w.salam
junaidb
26-02-07, 08:17 AM
I think none of us are free in this life, we humans are driven by 2 things, and all are no matter where you from, Bottom line we driven by Fear and Reward, We do something to recive reward for it or we do something to prevent something bad to happend us. This is proven, and we don't do things just for the sake of doing it, is that been free? Don't matter to me if you can go buttnaked down the street, the reason why you do things is the same reason why everybody else do things. I think ppl are confused today, thay think as long thay receve anything its all fine good or bad don't matter, and forget the dictionary, what is free to you? Read Quran and see what it say about the fear and if Allah will take it away, same thing about the reward, to me its really simple what ever may seem like freedom here its just a part of what we will recive from Allah, and we know what to do to recive it, and whitout those 2 things driven us we will trully be free. (only mine opinion on the subject) salam to all
Wassallaam
very good point....
i think its also has alot to do with our value systems and principles......with this in an Islamic context u don't even have to delve into the western so called ideology of Freedom.
We as Muslims are worlds apart and the western concept of freedom is so flawed because its is a man made one whereas the Islamic concept of freedom is from Almighty Allah.....there isn't even an iota of comparison.
just the way i see it.....
:coolbro:
Wassalaam
the western concept of freedom is so flawed because its is a man made one whereas the Islamic concept of freedom is from Almighty Allah.....there isn't even an iota of comparison.
:up:
By the definition of freedom given, then being a muslim is not endemic to freedom. This is demonstrated in how we term ourselves as being Slaves of Allah. This said however, we are free to choose to become muslim. Even with the harshest punishments faced under Shariah we are still free to choose to comply or not and face the consequences. This is still freedom that is exactly the same as in western nations. Just because muslims have more consequences for their actions, they are no less free in making choices then the typical American or Brit who faces prison or death because of the choices of their actions.
My argument is based on the presumption that freedom comes in the making of the choice rather then the argument that consequences would equal restraint
By the definition of freedom given, then being a muslim is not endemic to freedom. This is demonstrated in how we term ourselves as being Slaves of Allah. This said however, we are free to choose to become muslim. Even with the harshest punishments faced under Shariah we are still free to choose to comply or not and face the consequences. This is still freedom that is exactly the same as in western nations. Just because muslims have more consequences for their actions, they are no less free in making choices then the typical American or Brit who faces prison or death because of the choices of their actions.
My argument is based on the presumption that freedom comes in the making of the choice rather then the argument that consequences would equal restraint
Yes Uncle Jee u have a great point.
i think westerners need to look at their concept of 'freedom' before they raise eyebrows at ours.
Yes Quest that is another thing the Holy Qur'an was right about, anybody can ask and easy find out how long ago it was proven that those 2 things drive all humans, A really beutiful Islam:up: And its for ALL
Another great thing is that many Muslim people understand that we have a Free Choise but not a Free Will... I will go to Jannah (no you wont) but you can make the chiose of taking the path leading you there..
Everything have limits, every single thing, only diff is Muslim let Allah sett there limits while other let a man do it...
Yes Quest that is another thing the Holy Qur'an was right about, anybody can ask and easy find out how long ago it was proven that those 2 things drive all humans, A really beutiful Islam:up: And its for ALL
Another great thing is that many Muslim people understand that we have a Free Choise but not a Free Will... I will go to Jannah (no you wont) but you can make the chiose of taking the path leading you there..
Everything have limits, every single thing, only diff is Muslim let Allah sett there limits while other let a man do it...
love that high lighted part.
hey Akii, i always thought free will and free choice is the same thing,
How can i understand the difference if there is one..ur post indicates the 2 to be seperate hence why i ask.
whats the difference between saying "I choose to go to school" and "I have the will to carry on" (take the latter in context of quiting a bad sin like smoking for example)
look forward 2 ur reply
till the next episode peace
Quest this may not make sence to you, but ill try explain, and if anyone else can explain better pleas do, the point is to understand it no matter where it come from.....
Would you agree whit me that all you have is from Allah? If yes then he give you free mind to make what ever choise you want. You can't say i will live to 2020, you can choose to belive your gonna, but you know thats nothing for you do decide, only by Allah's will you just might live to 2020.
"I choose to go to school" that is just something you do for what ever reason you might find importent, becose of the ladyes there, becose of love for Allah what ever that is all yours to choose...
"I have the will to carry on" Ok but where you get that will from? Is it your will or is it Allahs? maybe you ask Allah Will you give me streight to carry on. And if you find yourself stronger and ready to do it, it was his WILL that blessed you. You made the choise to ask for it and by his will you got it.
Quest how many had the "WILL" to destroy Islam, destroy the Qur'an? But did thay do it? No, thay made that choise to try but Allah's will was stronger....
Allahs will was for us to live like Muslims and he send us Qur'an and give us a free mind to choose what ever path we want to go...
Maybe you don't understand nothing of this and im sorry for my poor way of explain it.
Here Quest i just found a little better explanation then mine ... Hope this clear up think for you brother..
"Does God know everything that is going to happen? - Does He have absolute control on the outcome of everything? - If so, how is that fair for us? Where is our free will then?"
Answer:
Allah Knows everything that will happen. The first thing that He created was the "pen" and He ordered the pen to write. The pen wrote until it had written everything that would happen. And then Allah began to create the universe. All of this was already known to Him before He created it. He does have absolute and total control at all times. There is nothing that happens except that He is in control of if.
There is a mistake in the question: "Free Will." Allah alone, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.
As regards the actual "Judgment Day" - Allah tells us that everything we are doing is being recorded and not a single tiny thing escapes from this record. Even an atom's weight of good will be seen on the Day of Judgment and even a single atom's weight of evil will be seen too.
The one who will bring the evidences against us will be ourselves. Our ears, tongue, eyes and all of our bodies will begin to testify against us in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment. None will be oppressed on that Day, none will be falsely accused.
He could have put everyone in their respective places from the very beginning, but the people would complain as to why they were thrown in Hell without being given a chance. This life is exactly that; a chance to prove to ourselves who we really are and what we would really do if we indeed had a free choice.
Allah Knows everything that will happen, but we don't. That is why the test is fair.
miss-islamic
28-02-07, 08:53 PM
salaams quest
niiiiice reply. MashAllah. :up:
so the mid way is to educate the people, work on them internally rather then externally first.
Yes..as the prophet said “establish Islam in yourselves and then Allah (swt) will establish Islam in you lands”
Thats why I don’t agree with the idea all our problems will be solved by having a khalifa. And that before grabbing an army, overthrowng some corrupt government, we need to have a clear plan on how we are going to politically and socially establish Islam. That will and is the real victory.
Blah blah blah,,im digressing again..so yes the article was messed up…but it would be the liberalist approach to freedom/choice and morality…people should have a choice if they want to do good or bad. I think that they admit that individual choice and indulgence over society beliefs causes more problems and hassle in a society but its alright because they have or society should also provide the cures.. the conservative view is that you can’t let evil grow in you your backyard, get rid of evil from the roots, prevention is better than the cure(and less of a hassle for the society), think of the long term effects on the individual and society…
Theres also religion liberalists. In your fist post you said that Muslim society doesn’t allow freedom to harm others. But Islamic states like is Saudi arabia and Taliban’s Afghanistan have the muttawa (religious police) and they force people to pray and grow a beard…that kind of stuff doesn’t even have a long term negative effect. a liberalist would say the essence of Muslim is that they should have a choice if they would do be that or not…that the real test (i.e when you are not forced to do good)and how you know who is a good Muslim and religious and who isn’t….
Another point is that what is moral, what is good or bad changes over the years(for non-Muslims)…but I think even in Christian history no one was forced to go to church or send to jail for not growing a beard…everybody did it and was the norm.. if someone wanted to be different and didn’t….the most that would happen was that he was probably looked down upon him and people gossiped about him.
Anways, it come down to if we want to make it work we have to make Islam strong in the heart first.:up:
Grey mashallah jazzakallah khayr for that, it maybe that many use the term free will loosely in that they really mean free choice?
similar to the phrase 'good luck' luck which is something that happens by chance contradicts qadr. yet again its used loosely in that many do not intend to contradict qadr but rather it is something they got used to and allah knows best.
Miss islamic, thanks sis for ur response, i agree with most of what u have said. but do think a just khalifa will solve many of our problems dis does not mean that i am saying we can achieve a just khalipa without working on ourselfs 1st. for allah does not change the conditions of a people untill they change the conditions withinn themselves.
Barracuda
04-03-07, 06:56 AM
I will keep this brief
with all due respect, freedom judging by western definition is utter bull and misleading when one understands it literally
for example FREEDOM = The condition of being free of restraints.
some westerners have the sheer nerve to ridicule ISLAM by saying muslims are NOT allowed to be free.
as a result some muslims respond in a defensive way by saying things akin to 'yes we are' etc which in itself my brothers and sisters is an admission of defeat for western standards have once again been made the arbiters, Islam is not a servant in their palaces of 'democracy' Islam is the criteria wherein to judge right from wrong
u feel me?
lets flip the script, i agree that there is no FREEDOM in islam
let me explain why i say this
look at the definition of freedom in the dictionary, in a nutshell it means
The condition of being free of restraints.
ISLAM encourages restraint in different ways, for example self restraint, now imagine a world wherby every one is free of restraints.
what we have is NO CONTROL without control THERE IS disorder
Question
can order come from disorder?
the answer is obviously NO
now ISLAM says u can be FREE so long as ur freedom of choice, speech or expression does not infringe on the rights of others, so long as ur choices do not hurt Others the prophet Mohammed scws injunction being
"the muslim does not Hurt another"
"want for ur brothers what u want for yourself"
now the moment these so longs which in a nut shell are CONDITIONS exist, the western stance of freedom is out of the window, simply because in order to be truely free there must be no conditions for if conditions exist then restraints do also.
now when restraint exists a system of control does thus a society of order is born.
To close the west can keep their stance of FREEDOM to themselves. mankind is not in need of it.
if one analysed their concept of freedom properly you will see it is pathetic. an specific and contradictory.
hence why they try to brainwash others by saying their concept of freedom is similar to what i have said the islamic one is, basically u are free so long as ur choices do not infringe on the rights of others.
what they have just done is attached a condition to their freedom, along with that condition comes restraint hence we no longer have freedom if freedom by them is defined as a condition of being free of restraints.
what we have instead is something better WE HAVE JUSTICE.
intrested in your views regarding this.
peace b upon those whom follow the guidance
In Islam we have more freedom than West can conceptualize that. But like every society including West, Islam has certain stipulations.
The most important is avoiding harm to others; therefore any freedom must not be hurtful to others nor encroach on their rights or dignity. Similarly, it may not fall beyond the scope of the valid exercise of this freedom, for it to be used as a means to promote chaos, violence or social strife. Furthermore, freedom of anything, like other liberties, is subservient to the 'essential interests' {masalih daruriyyah} and values which are needed to maintain a stable socio-political order. Therefore, the exercise of this freedom must not jeopardize the five essential values of LIFE, FAITH, INTELLECT, LINEAGE & PROPERTY.
In Islam we have more freedom than West can conceptualize that. But like every society including West, Islam has certain stipulations.
The most important is avoiding harm to others; therefore any freedom must not be hurtful to others nor encroach on their rights or dignity. Similarly, it may not fall beyond the scope of the valid exercise of this freedom, for it to be used as a means to promote chaos, violence or social strife. Furthermore, freedom of anything, like other liberties, is subservient to the 'essential interests' {masalih daruriyyah} and values which are needed to maintain a stable socio-political order. Therefore, the exercise of this freedom must not jeopardize the five essential values of LIFE, FAITH, INTELLECT, LINEAGE & PROPERTY.
nicely put
barakallahu feek
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