Please Help!!!

[saba]

AOA everyone
im a 22 years old female living in pakistan.there was a boy who i knew since childhood and we ended up liking each other and decided to get married.he forced his family to bring proposal to my family but his father being very stubborn did not come to my place, and he had no reason to that he was only being rigid and even once told his son that if u want her so much and do it yourself.finally he got so fed up he decided to take me into his nikah.and we both got married secretly and decided that he will keep on trying to make his father agree on the marriage.this year the nikah thing opened in both our families.my family did react to it and were hurt but they said ok now that u have done this we will accept him.but when his dad got to know about this he simply talked to my father and threatned him that u dont know my power this and that and my father really got scared and forced me to finish as in the space for divorce on the nikah nama it was said that the woman has the right to divorce any time and it shall end.HERE i want to tell u that this guy who i married is rigth now in america and he DOES NOT want to end it and he has the original papers.but as u see according to law here in pakistan if i sign the divorce his dad has sent after 3 mnths i will automatically get divorced even if the husband does not sign it.On teh stamp paper it is written that I....name d/O give my husband talaq talaq talaq....PLEASE TELL ME if i sign it and this is being done forcefully and i dont want to run away from my house as the honour of my family will be totally shattered ....IS THIS DIVORCE VALID?????and plus his family did not even call my husband and ask him...they just want it finished!!!:(please help i dont want a divorce...i have married once in my lifetime and i love him.hes willing to leave his family for me and says we will do nikah again and ill call u here:(please help!!!any brother sister out there!!!!please help me:(

[ObserverIII]

I suggest you go to school first and try to learn correct spelling. Civilization might bring solutions to your problems. Hopefully!

[saba]

i just wish that something like this doesnt happen to you :)

[Al-Nasser]

I suggest you go to school first and try to learn correct spelling. Civilization might bring solutions to your problems. Hopefully!

i suggest you shut up.......look at yourself....you graduated from school but it didn't make you go beyond the status of a jackass.......so just shut up...sit back....or go chew a stack of hay or something while the brothers and sisters here help this sister with her problem

[Black_Rose]

I read on sunnipath that forced divorce is STILL divorce and valid as a divorce because whether forced or not, the intention/purpose of saying/writing it is to give a divorce.

Whether this divorce is valid or not :scratch:

You really need to speak to a scholar and explain the details properly.

[saba]

AOA everyone
im a 22 years old female living in pakistan.there was a boy who i knew since childhood and we ended up liking each other and decided to get married.he forced his family to bring proposal to my family but his father being very stubborn did not come to my place, and he had no reason to that he was only being rigid and even once told his son that if u want her so much and do it yourself.finally he got so fed up he decided to take me into his nikah.and we both got married secretly and decided that he will keep on trying to make his father agree on the marriage.this year the nikah thing opened in both our families.my family did react to it and were hurt but they said ok now that u have done this we will accept him.but when his dad got to know about this he simply talked to my father and threatned him that u dont know my power this and that and my father really got scared and forced me to finish as in the space for divorce on the nikah nama it was said that the woman has the right to divorce any time and it shall end.HERE i want to tell u that this guy who i married is rigth now in america and he DOES NOT want to end it and he has the original papers.but as u see according to law here in pakistan if i sign the divorce his dad has sent after 3 mnths i will automatically get divorced even if the husband does not sign it.On teh stamp paper it is written that I....name d/O give my husband talaq talaq talaq....PLEASE TELL ME if i sign it and this is being done forcefully and i dont want to run away from my house as the honour of my family will be totally shattered ....IS THIS DIVORCE VALID?????and plus his family did not even call my husband and ask him...they just want it finished!!!:(please help i dont want a divorce...i have married once in my lifetime and i love him.hes willing to leave his family for me and says we will do nikah again and ill call u here:(please help!!!any brother sister out there!!!!please help me:(

[MG]

are u in any contact wiht your husband? he needs to be made aware of wat is going on.

[Emelianenko]

Islamically..only ur husband can give u divorce..he has to say talaq 3 times..if he has not said tht..then NO u r not divorced and nor shall u be seen as divorced in eyes of Allah..according to Pakistani laws i dnt kno..but sak dem..in Islam u r still married and not divorced till ur husband utters talaq.

[Ebony]

Er sis, how did you marry without the permission of your wali in the first place?

[saba]

yes i am in contact with his.he called home and talked to his father and fought with him and told him to stop doing it but he just hung up he doesnt want to listen...and my husband says that dont worry i will come here and put up a case on him stating that he forcfully did this to u in my absence...basically i just want to know if this divorce which is forced on me is valid?and secondly i some islamic scholar told me that islam hasnt given the woman that right to divorce, she can only appeal for khulla(divorce)through a lawyer

[Emelianenko]

Divorce can only be done by the husband no? until he doesnt utter Talaq they r still married Islamically..so basically this stuff bout u going to courts n divorcing is prob according to pakistan law..islamically it holds no basis...ur husbans has refused to divorce..therefore u r still married.

[Nirvana]

I wouldn't do it (don't sign it) I just put my true love and I in your shoes and it seems that I wouldn't sign it, no matter what anyone threatens:inlove: :)

[Emelianenko]

I wouldn't do it (don't sign it) I just put my true love and I in your shoes and it seems that I wouldn't sign it, no matter what anyone threatens:inlove: :)
Nirvana dude even if they do force her into signing owt..in Islam tht hold no basis..the power of divorce is given to the husband..until he does not utter the words Divorce to her..she is still married to him..irrespective of what her father or whatknot make her do or sign.

[bint]

Divorce can only be done by the husband no? until he doesnt utter Talaq they r still married Islamically..so basically this stuff bout u going to courts n divorcing is prob according to pakistan law..islamically it holds no basis...ur husbans has refused to divorce..therefore u r still married.

emel theres a twist there..if the husband refuses to give divorde..then aparently the Islainc Shariah council has the power to make him divorce her..someway or another...theres more to iy....n a warning...people dont start critiscing what i just said..look into it...i will do the same.!

[Black_Rose]

It is true that women have the right of khula divorce, not the right to issue a divorce in the way men do verbally or in writing.

The fact that you stipulated right of divorce in your contract may complicate matters depending on what the contract said exactly. :scratch:

Speak to a trustworthy scholar about this.

And yeh, even if it is a divorce according to Pakistani civil law, it is probably not one islamically because you're the wife.

But had it been your husband forced to do this it would've been a valid divorce though forced. Maybe this is a good example of why women can't initiate the divorce unless through khula.

[Emelianenko]

aye if the hubby refuses to give a divorce which the woman has REQUESTED then she can go to Islamic courts and present her case and take it from their..but in this case she has not REQUESTED a divorce..her father in law or whoever r taking matters into their own hands and FORCING her to do summat to which they have no right or say to be honest..

The husband is in the US..he is refusing to divorce..she has not REQUESTED a divorce so islamically no matter what she is forced to sign..both parties dont want a divorce and theirfore islamically they will remaind hubby n wife.

[Black_Rose]

emel theres a twist there..if the husband refuses to give divorde..then aparently the Islainc Shariah council has the power to make him divorce her..someway or another...theres more to iy....n a warning...people dont start critiscing what i just said..look into it...i will do the same.! No, I think you are correct in saying that. A malicious husband can't just prevent his wife from obtaining a divorce, if she has grounds for divorce she can get the marriage annulled from an imam/shariah council court thingy if he refuses.

[saba]

he Doesnt want to divorce me and my whole family asked him.i have all the evidence.and to give more details it is written on the divorce paper that I saba.....give ____the guy talaq talaq talaq reasons being due to some uncomfortable reasons.my father is making me sign it.because he says that i want our security more than anything and i want my respect.this is what i said that its not valid!MY ALLAH KNOWS MY HEART AND MY NIYAT AND MY INTENTIONS.

[Emelianenko]

aye but lets not get tht mixed up wid dis case..we need to make it easy to understand for this sis:

He is in America..and is happily married to her
She is in Pakistan and is also happily married to him
Their families r forcing HER to sign some papers which says according to some other laws tht she is divorced..Islamically this is not recognised..

therefore we all agree tht no matter what she signs..she is still married to her hubby as he has no intention and has not uttered talaq..and she has not requested talaq?

[Emelianenko]

he Doesnt want to divorce me and my whole family asked him.i have all the evidence.and to give more details it is written on the divorce paper that I saba.....give ____the guy talaq talaq talaq reasons being due to some uncomfortable reasons.my father is making me sign it.because he says that i want our security more than anything and i want my respect.this is what i said that its not valid!MY ALLAH KNOWS MY HEART AND MY NIYAT AND MY INTENTIONS.
In tht case islamically u will not be divorced.if ur life is at stake...then consult a scholar and just sign the papers..as islamically they r of no status and hold no power. when ur hubby comes back from US..just move in with him..as u will still be hubby and wife Islamically.

[saba]

well are you trying to say now that my nikah is not valid?we married in front of gawahz and ofcourse if we told our parents they would have never agreed to it.He is 26 i am 22 ...

[Black_Rose]

Er sis, how did you marry without the permission of your wali in the first place?
According to a position of the Hanafi madhab it is valid without permission of wali but it depends on the particular case and one should consult a scholar about it, and in this siters case, she recieved approval of wali when he was informed anyway so her nikah I presume it would be valid.

[islamirama]

She said she got married. Well there's a problem in that first. She said her family found out later. Well here's the deal. First, if you did not had 2 witness then your marriage may not be valid. And if you married in secrete WIHTOUT wali, well then your marriage defnintly not valid and you are not married.

So first thing first. Talk to an alim or scholar and determine if your marriage is valid at all or not. Once they give you that answer THEN decide how to save your marraige. Inshallah seek professional help, no body here is professional. we can only offer our advice based on limited knowledge we have compared to the scholars and alims who have studied the shari'ah.

[Black_Rose]

BTW, just for information..

Forced divorce (http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=3481&CATE=11) is valid.

BUT that is when the husband is compelled to give it verbally.

Force is not the same as parental "pressure" ..the legal definition of force is specified in that fatwa. This kind of pressure from parents is not considered force anyway.

As a sister, you don't have the right of divorce, if you say talaq, talaq, talaq it does not count as a divorce :eek3:

If I was you, I wouldn't worry too much, but speak to a scholar anyway. And what is your husband playing at btw, why doesn't he come back and take a stand one way or the other, it isn't right for your parents to be threatened by his family this way. :(

[saba]

well scholars here say that if u do sign it , divorce will happen as the right to leave the husband is given to the wife.as for him coming back, well when he told his family his mother hid it from the father out of terror and as soon as he left which in not even a month when he left so i dont want american embassy to call him and he gets into trouble...and the scholar also said that u can remarry thi sguy anytime with a new meher money amount ..i dont know if thats true

[saba]

And for wali thing...my father knows now and he does approve of it but hes under pressure of than man...i will do nikah again to satisfy myslef and everyone in front of him this time.... i will not leave this person as i have told him that i accept him as my husband and im signing under your pressure...and black rose trust me his FATHER is the most stubborn person on this earth...it wont make any difference at all even if he comes.so why should i call him again as hes been coming with short intervals previously on a student visa

[saba]

And the papers are at my home and his father has been calling my father that im waiting for your reply and for the papers so it would be late anyways if he comes back ...whats the point?because i rather thought on this matter when u said he should come back...it wouldn't help:(

[Talha-1]

Er sis, how did you marry without the permission of your wali in the first place?
In the Hanaafi mudhab the Muslim women doesn't need a wali.

[islamirama]

In the Hanaafi mudhab the Muslim women doesn't need a wali.

can you show me that w/ source?

[islamirama]

well scholars here say that if u do sign it , divorce will happen as the right to leave the husband is given to the wife.as for him coming back, well when he told his family his mother hid it from the father out of terror and as soon as he left which in not even a month when he left so i dont want american embassy to call him and he gets into trouble...and the scholar also said that u can remarry thi sguy anytime with a new meher money amount ..i dont know if thats true

What kind of "scholars" are you talking to ? I clearly understand reading a hadith of the prophet *S* that if you get a divorce from ur hubby then you have to marry another man and divorce him and then you can re-marry your first hubby. And then the thing on this is that the divorce to 2nd hubby has to happen naturally if things don't work out, you can't make deals becuase firstly its an injustice to the 2nd hubby to be used like that and 2ndly your taking talaaq as a joke if your playing these games.


And for wali thing...my father knows now and he does approve of it but hes under pressure of than man...i will do nikah again to satisfy myslef and everyone in front of him this time.... i will not leave this person as i have told him that i accept him as my husband and im signing under your pressure...and black rose trust me his FATHER is the most stubborn person on this earth...it wont make any difference at all even if he comes.so why should i call him again as hes been coming with short intervals previously on a student visa

If your father approves then you have to redo your nikkah becuase if your nikka was done in secrete w/o his approval than its not valid. Unless your imaam stood in as your wali or one of your mahrams, otherwise i would question the validity of that nikkah. Also, did you have two witness present?

Again i say thing, go ask a learned scholar on this issue (not your local molbee saab) and don't ask here. These people are not scholars nor is this a topic that can be discussed with everyone's opinion, this is real life situation with two lives involved and maybe more. if they want to give advice then let them back that up with hadith and Quran. And i mean paste those here as well as proof of your statements.

[muslimah15]

In the Hanaafi mudhab the Muslim women doesn't need a wali.

whoah,are you serious?have u got sum evidence for that?seems erm--interesting to say the least

[Ebony]

Concluding the Marriage Contract without a Wali
Date of Reply01/Oct/2003
Topic Of Fatwa:Marriage
Country AppliedUnited Kingdom

Question of Fatwa:

Respected scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum! Is it allowed for a Muslim woman to conclude her own marriage contract without the presence of her wali (guardian)? Jazakum Allah khayran.

Name of MuftiEuropean Council for Fatwa and Research (http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503614923&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaCounselorE%2FFatwaCounselorE)
Content of Reply
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear sister in Islam, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

As regards the issue you raised, the European Council for Fatwa and Research issued the following Fatwa:

"Marriage is one of the most important contracts for it signals the creation of a new family within society; the birth of new individuals into the world and the duties and responsibilities which fall unto each of the two partners.

As a result of marriage being a contract between the two spouses as partners to the contract, the full consent of whom is deemed vital for the ratification to proceed, the Lawgiver (Allah Almighty) did not allow for the guardianship of the father of the bride or anyone else to become one by which the guardian forces or compels the woman to marry to a man whom she does not want. Indeed, Islam granted the woman full rights to accept whomever proposes to her in marriage or to reject him.

Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) stated that a small girl came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and told him that her father had forced her to marry against her will. The Prophet gave her the right to choose either to stay married or to annul the marriage contract. (Reported by Imam Ahmad)

The Prophetic texts all came to affirm this right for women. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated that "The virgin shall not be married until her consent is sought neither a previously married woman until she overtly states her acceptance," he (peace and blessings be upon him) added: </B>"and the virgin’s consent shall be sought by her father.”</B>

By this, Islam decreed that marriage be built upon a basis of love, compassion and mercy. Allah Almighty stated: "And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercybetween your hearts." ( Ar-Rum: 21)

It is usually impossible to attain these beautiful aims and objectives within a marriage, which was established with force and compulsion. However, since the woman, despite her Islamically granted independence, was always subject to the desires of the ill-hearted and evil opportunists; Islam decreed certain legislations which would maintain her rights and deter those whom carry ill-aims and desires.

Therefore, Islam gave great importance to the approval of the woman's guardian in a manner, which reflects the significance of the marriage contract. This also adds another dimension to the beautiful state of tranquillity and love in which the entire family will find themselves, as the woman will remain on good terms with her parents or guardians, in contrast to what would happen if she went against their wish. In this case the opposite of what Islam aimed to achieve would undoubtedly prevail.

Despite the general consensus among scholars that the approval of the woman's guardian is preferable and much more favorable, they differed regarding whether it is actually a condition for the validity of the marriage contract:

1- The majority of scholars agreed that the approval of the guardian is a condition, without which the contract would be invalid, based upon the statement of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who stated that: "The marriage of any woman married without the permission of her guardian is false." He (peace and blessings be upon him) also stated: “No marriage is to take place without the guardian.”

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

The European Council for Fatwa and Research advises women not to disregard their guardians, who wish only for their best interest and that they marry good men rather than deceitful and ill-heart proposers.

The Council also advises fathers to facilitate the marriage of their daughters and to seek their opinions as regards the suitors, without transgressing in using the rights that Islam granted to them. The Council also reminds them of the hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): "If someone comes to propose in marriage and he is of acceptable religion and behavior, then accept his proposal, otherwise great turbulence and corruption will spread on earth."

Fathers must also realize that preventing their daughters from getting married is a great injustice, which is outlawed and prohibited by Islam. The Council also advises the Islamic Centers to take the aforementioned rules into consideration, as it is safest and best.

However, if the woman does not have a legal guardian, then an Islamic Center must act as her guardian in countries lacking an Islamic Legal system. The Council finally affirms that it believes that if the mature and sound-minded woman were to marry herself (without the interference of her guardian), then her marriage would be valid.”

Excerpted, with slight modifications, from: http://www.ecfr.org

May Allah guide you to the straight path and direct you to that which pleases Him, Amen.



You can also read:

My Parents Refuse the Person I Love: What to Do? (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=82598)
The Wali (Guardian) in Marriage: Role & Responsibilities (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=9238)

www.islamonline.net (http://www.islamonline.net)

[islamirama]

1- The majority of scholars agreed that the approval of the guardian is a condition, without which the contract would be invalid, based upon the statement of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) who stated that: [B]"The marriage of any woman married without the permission of her guardian is false." He (peace and blessings be upon him) also stated: “No marriage is to take place without the guardian.”

2- The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah stated that the permission of the guardian is not a condition, and they based their conclusion upon many evidences, such as the hadith narrated by Muslim and the Four Narrators of Hadith, that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) stated: "The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent." They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty. They also said that: If the adult sound-minded woman married herself (without the interference of her guardian), her marriage would be valid given all other conditions are fulfilled. Her guardian maintains the right to appeal to the Judge and request the annulment of the contract.

www.islamonline.net (http://www.islamonline.net)

I've read that, the virgin's wali gives her away but must seek her approval first and the divorced doesn't need wali becuase she has already gone thru that procedure (and is not as innocent anymore).


They added that that the permission of the guardian only becomes a condition if the girl is under the age of puberty.

And where did they derive this from?

"The previously married woman shall have the right to decide for herself, whilst the consent of the virgin shall be sought to be married, and a sign of her consent being granted is her keeping silent."

Now where in that hadith does it say that she has hit puberty and so her consent be sought and if she didn't hit puberty than she needs a wali. If a person doesn't hit puberty then they are still a child and not an adult. How can you marry that child off when she doesn't know yet if to say yes or no.

I disagree with this fatwa, they have no evidence to back up their claim. This one hadith alone invalidates their claim of not needing a wali.

Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who marries without the permission of her walee, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1021 and others; it is a saheeh hadeeth)


Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage contract except with a walee and two witnesses.” (Reported by al-Tabaraani; see also Saheeh al-Jaami’, 7558)


Thanks ebony, i'll make sure to NOT take my knowledge from http://www.ecfr.org