View Full Version : Marriage: It's your choice!
LiveIslam
23-11-05, 08:04 PM
By Amatullah Abdullah
Saleema was sitting on the bed in her bedroom, staring at the beautiful red sari which had rich jardosi embroidery on the borders.
"Saleema baaji … Saleema baaji!" Sabeera sounded excited as she entered Saleema's room.
"Baaji , guess what?!…." The excitement in her tone increased
"Papa has agreed to take me to perform Hajj after your wedding…"
Saleema forced a light smile and said in a low voice," "Oh that's good Sabeera. I am happy for you."
"Baaji you don't sound too good… are you ok?" Sabeera asked with concern.
"I'm ok, don't worry …I haven't slept properly for the past two days so I'm just tired," Saleema patted her sister's head and smiled.
"Oh ok! I understand , you're gonna be married in a week, so you must be nervous and excited and the excitement is not allowing you to sleep I guess! "Sabeera winked at her sister. Her eyes fell on the red sari.
"Wow this is so beautiful baaji, you're gonna look like a doll in this sari!" Sabeera exclaimed pointing to the red sari on Saleema's bed.
Saleema smiled, "Is Ummi back from mousy's house? "
"Not yet," Sabeera answered, "I just got a call from the tailor and she said she would finish Ummi's sari in another two days. I wanted to inform Ummi about this. Please inform her about this because I might forget. My memory hasn't been good for the past few days" Saleema told her.
"Sure Baaji I'll do that, but now I better go and clean my room before Ummi comes!" Sabeera pecked a kiss on her sister's cheek and left her room.
Saleema was alone. She latched her door, leaned against it, and closed her eyes, tears gushed from her eyes flowing on her cheeks. Her heart told her, "Saleema, you have your freedom of choice, you have the right to choose and you need to express your feelings before it is too late. Marriage is for tranquility. Will you have tranquility in this marriage, which you don't want?"
Saleema asked herself, "but how will I tell them, what if they alienate me and hate me for expressing my feelings about this man?" She struggled with her heart, which was insisting her to express her feelings. Finally, she decided to tell aunt Najeeba, her father's sister who she considered to be the most understanding and considerate member in the family.
After an hour had passed, Saleema heard her mother's voice downstairs and went down slowly on the steps to speak to her mother. Saleema's mother came back from her aunt's house. She brought a dazzling traditional jewelry set for her to wear on the wedding day.
"As Salaamu Alaikum , ummi…" Saleema said softly. Her mother turned around with a big smile on her face when she saw Saleema.
"Wa Alaikum Salaam. Saleema, look at this! I got this jewelry set for you. See whether you like it?"
"It's beautiful," Saleema said with a smile.
"I know, and you will look gorgeous in this. I can't wait to see you as a bride!" her mother was euphoric at the thought.
Saleema smiled faintly and said "Ummi, will mousy be coming home today….?" before she completed her sentence, she heard the door bell. Saleema answered the door hoping and wishing that it would be Aunt Najeeba and it was…
"As Salaamu Alaikum!" Najeeba greeted as she entered the house.
Saleema was glad that her aunt came and hugged and kissed her, "Wa alaikum salaam mousy. I knew you would be coming today …"
Najeeba laughed and said "I come here almost every day, especially since your wedding got fixed. Tasneem would not leave me even if I don't come…" pointing to her mother.
Tasneem laughed and greeted her "As Salaamu Alaikum, of course, how could I leave you? You are not only my SIL but also my best friend and the bride's to be aunt." Najeeba sat on the sofa with a huge grin and remarked to Saleema, "So, you must be counting your days now…"
Saleema sat quietly next to her aunt. Her mother and aunt were busy discussing the wedding and other ceremonies, which would be held before and after the wedding. Indian weddings have a lot of add-on ceremonies; a mehndi function, another reception after the wedding, etc.
Saleema pretended to read a magazine till her mother left to set the table and prepare lunch for them. Saleema was alone with her aunt Najeeba. She became restless and was wondering how to approach the subject about her feelings for the man who she is going to marry. Najeeba noticed Saleema's restlessness and asked her "Do you want to say something Saleema?"
Najeeba could sense Saleema's attitude as Saleema usually poured out her feelings and thoughts only to her aunt. Saleema always approached Najeeba if she had any problem and needed counsel.
"Yes mousy , I want to talk to you alone" she said. Najeeba got up, saying "Okay let's go to your room." They both went to Saleema's room and Saleema latched her door. Najeeba was looking at Saleema with worry.
"What is it Saleema ?" she asked. Saleema was thinking of how to start the topic and then said , "It is about my wedding Mousy."
"What about it?" Najeeba asked
"Oh mousy I really don't know how to start…" Saleema's eyes were filled with tears, "Mousy let me be honest with you. I don't want to marry Ahmed"
Najeeba was shocked to hear this; her eyes widened. "But why, what's wrong with him?"
"I grew up with him Mousy and my heart has always seen him as my own brother and now suddenly everybody says I am gonna marry him and my marriage date is fixed without my permission." Saleema said tearfully.
"My heart is not inclined towards him. I cannot accept him as my husband. Oh please Mousy help me," Saleema pleaded.
"Saleema sweetie, the marriage is fixed and now don't you think it is too late…" Najeeba said softly. Saleema's tone rose, "Mousy it will be too late only after marriage!" she busted into tears.
Najeeba hugged her niece and said, "Sweetie, even I had the same feeling when I married my husband but in course of time I started getting comfortable with him especially after having children…"
"What if I end up not being compatible after marriage?" Saleema asked her hurriedly
"But you will… I was not happy for 15 years but now I am happy, in fact very happy," Najeeba said trying to persuade her.
"GOOD!" Saleema said irritably.
"So you want me to marry him and wait till I become forty to have a comfortable married life?" Saleema was angry and disappointed, "I thought you would be the only one who would understand me." She added, sadly, "Nobody asked my permission Mousy. Everybody arranged this and then they come and tell me that I am gonna marry Ahmed and my marriage is fixed."
"I do understand sweetie but this is our culture. We all went through the same thing which you are going through," Najeeba said pathetically and hugged her niece.
"So I HAVE to marry him and I have no other choice?" Saleema asked desolately.
"Yes sweetie, being born as girls, we need to be patient and undergo all this. Allah will reward you for your patience," Najeeba said. Saleema was unable to hold back her tears and cried so much that Najeeba's sari blouse got soaked with them. Najeeba kissed Saleema and tried to pacify her…
* * *
Islam, a way of life, is a religion that is moderate and balanced. Islam has the Qur'an and Sunnah to guide the people. Now what does Islam say about this situation?
Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya, that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid. (Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69)
He (saws) also said:
"The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained." (AlBukhari)
"Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, God will enter him into Paradise." (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957).
Marriage is a beautiful and a sacred bond which allows each spouse to live in tranquility.
"And among His signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in peace and tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (Qur'an 30:21)
There are thousands of "Saleemas" in different parts of the world. They are forced into marriages and the result is that they too ruin their own daughters' lives. Parents or guardians need to reflect on the words of Prophet Muhammad and the Noble Qur'an before they give in to their culture, if they call themselves Muslims.
JustBinPraised
23-11-05, 08:36 PM
Now what does Islam say about this situation?
That it is an injustice.
Islam, a way of life, is a religion that is moderate and balanced.
Firstly, it has nothing to do with being moderate or extreme, i can never understand the usuage of these terms. What eaxctly does moderate mean? Does it mean I pray when I feel like it?
Secondly, the fundamental point with this situation is that it is not even Islamic. The problem with some Muslims and especially non-Muslims is they need to learn the difference between Islamic laws and cultural laws. The situation you have described is a cultural problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Secondly, the fundamental point with this situation is that it is not even Islamic. The problem with some Muslims and especially non-Muslims is they need to learn the difference between Islamic laws and cultural laws. The situation you have described is a cultural problem. It has nothing to do with Islam.
Speaking as a non-Muslim I am happy to accept that there is a distinction between cultural and religious laws. But the religious laws feed into the cultural ones and the cultural ones, like it or not, into the religious ones. Take honor killings. I will happily agree Islam does not support the idea of honor killings. In fact in the Prophet's time people killed their baby girls over honor and that was forbidden. But the fact is that Islamic law does not punish fathers for killing their daughters. And Islam is strong on honor. And Islamic law makes punishing rape and some other sexual offenses all but impossible. The inevitable result, even though Islam does not approve, is obvious.
So in this case, sure making girls marry people they do not like is cultural. Does Islam play no role in this? If so it would occur in other communities too such as the Hindu community. And it does. But in some communities it plays less of a role. Christians have been tough on banning arranged marriages. Traditionally they insist that consent, active consent, is needed and hence only adult marriages are valid. Islam only requires passive consent on the part of a virgin. It is enough the bride-to-be is silent and there are no rules about how that silence is obtained. There is no ban on child marriages. You can see how Islamic law does not do much to prevent this sort of thing.
JustBinPraised
23-11-05, 08:49 PM
Speaking as a non-Muslim I am happy to accept that there is a distinction between cultural and religious laws. But the religious laws feed into the cultural ones and the cultural ones, like it or not, into the religious ones. Take honor killings. I will happily agree Islam does not support the idea of honor killings. In fact in the Prophet's time people killed their baby girls over honor and that was forbidden. But the fact is that Islamic law does not punish fathers for killing their daughters. And Islam is strong on honor. And Islamic law makes punishing rape and some other sexual offenses all but impossible. The inevitable result, even though Islam does not approve, is obvious.
So in this case, sure making girls marry people they do not like is cultural. Does Islam play no role in this? If so it would occur in other communities too such as the Hindu community. And it does. But in some communities it plays less of a role. Christians have been tough on banning arranged marriages. Traditionally they insist that consent, active consent, is needed and hence only adult marriages are valid. Islam only requires passive consent on the part of a virgin. It is enough the bride-to-be is silent and there are no rules about how that silence is obtained. There is no ban on child marriages. You can see how Islamic law does not do much to prevent this sort of thing.
How can a law prevent if it is not being implemented?
How can a law prevent if it is not being implemented?
There's a tricky question. What does it matter? If Islamic law does not punish honor killings it doesn't matter if it is implemented or not - does it?
slaveofalmajeed
23-11-05, 08:51 PM
I really hate when parents force marry people, I really hate it!
I really hate when parents force marry people, I really hate it!
Why? This may sound a silly question, but I like to think it isn't. Why do you really hate it? Of all the injustices in the world.
How do you feel when parents force their children to divorce?
LiveIslam
23-11-05, 08:54 PM
I really hate when parents force marry people, I really hate it!
your not the only 1 i hate people who says its allowed in islam to force ppl wen actually its thier culture
How do you feel when parents force their children to divorce?
Wrong and unacceptable. Any form of emotional pressure is unacceptable especially if it goes against islam, and upsets and burdens you.
There's a tricky question. What does it matter? If Islamic law does not punish honor killings it doesn't matter if it is implemented or not - does it?
There is no such thing as 'honour killing'. It is the most dishonourable act because it is murder and should be punished accordingly. There is no compulsion in religion, if a person refuses to obey their Lord, you cannot force them to comply to islam. Two wrongs do not make a right. You can only bring forth an accusation about zina (pre marital relations) or the sort if you have met a specific criteria and can substantiate your claim.
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: For God can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily God is well-acquainted with all that you do. (4:135)
http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hk.html
JustBinPraised
23-11-05, 09:00 PM
What does it matter? If Islamic law does not punish honor killings it doesn't matter if it is implemented or not - does it?
Firstly, What is this based on?
Secondly, Honour killings are not supported under Islamic law. Therefore, if it is not supported it then becomes illegal. I am not too sure what you mean by when you say Islamic law does not punish such crimes. Please be clearer, your use of logic is confusing.
Al-Irhaab
23-11-05, 09:25 PM
what do you class as honour killings?
Firstly, What is this based on?
Mu understanding of Islamic law mostly. Always a shaky basis for an opinion.
Secondly, Honour killings are not supported under Islamic law. Therefore, if it is not supported it then becomes illegal. I am not too sure what you mean by when you say Islamic law does not punish such crimes. Please be clearer, your use of logic is confusing.
I specifically said they were not. Infant daughters were killed in the Prophet's time because their fathers feared they would grow up and be kidnapped and raped and so shame their families. God specifically and clearly forbade this and I do not think it is any better if you do it to an adult daughter. And, sure, they are illegal in Islamic law. But they are not, and cannot be, punished. It is simple. Islamic law gives the choice between the death penalty or diya to the next of kin does it not? So when someone is arrested for murder, the next-of-kin decide whether to take money or execute the killer. Is that the case? Imagine a case where a father tells his son to kill his daughter. In Islamic law the responsibility resides with the killer, not the person that forces someone to do the killing. So if the son does it, he is to blame, not his Father. In any event should the son be caught, the authorities would ask the nearest relatives if they wanted diya or an execution. Who would the next-of-kin be to a murdered daughter if not the father? So his choices would be (a) to have his son killed or (b) pay himself compensation for the act he ordered. Which do you think he will do? As I said, Islamic law does not punish honor killings. As long as murder remains a family affair, many murders within the family will not be punished.
Explain to me why you think honor killings are punishable in Islam?
JustBinPraised
24-11-05, 10:37 AM
Mu understanding of Islamic law mostly.
Which is zilch! I am not to sure what you have been reading but your knowledge on Islamic law is ridiculous.
I specifically said they were not. Infant daughters were killed in the Prophet's time because their fathers feared they would grow up and be kidnapped and raped and so shame their families. God specifically and clearly forbade this and I do not think it is any better if you do it to an adult daughter. And, sure, they are illegal in Islamic law. But they are not, and cannot be, punished. It is simple. Islamic law gives the choice between the death penalty or diya to the next of kin does it not? So when someone is arrested for murder, the next-of-kin decide whether to take money or execute the killer. Is that the case? Imagine a case where a father tells his son to kill his daughter. In Islamic law the responsibility resides with the killer, not the person that forces someone to do the killing. So if the son does it, he is to blame, not his Father. In any event should the son be caught, the authorities would ask the nearest relatives if they wanted diya or an execution. Who would the next-of-kin be to a murdered daughter if not the father? So his choices would be (a) to have his son killed or (b) pay himself compensation for the act he ordered. Which do you think he will do? As I said, Islamic law does not punish honor killings. As long as murder remains a family affair, many murders within the family will not be punished.
Explain to me why you think honor killings are punishable in Islam?
Firstly, honour killings are a form of vigilantism, is that understandable to you? Do you understand what is meant by the term vigilantism? Assuming that you do here is an example; a man catches his wife sleeping with another man. The question then becomes what does the man do? He has one option under Islamic law, if he has four witnesses he can then go straight to the authorities and report the act of adultery that has taken place. However, if he does not produce four witnesses then according to Islamic law he cannot do anything about it. If however, he then decides to take the law into his own hands, this is then an act of vigilantism. Therefore, by taking this course of action he is now liable to be punished for having taken the matter illegally. Vigilantism is not allowed. Muslims must work according to the law. Going against the law and taking things into your own hands leads to anarchy. An Islamic society is not an anarchic society.
Do you understand?
Which is zilch! I am not to sure what you have been reading but your knowledge on Islamic law is ridiculous.
Well that is probably true. Does it matter?
Firstly, honour killings are a form of vigilantism, is that understandable to you? Do you understand what is meant by the term vigilantism? Assuming that you do here is an example; a man catches his wife sleeping with another man. The question then becomes what does the man do? He has one option under Islamic law, if he has four witnesses he can then go straight to the authorities and report the act of adultery that has taken place. However, if he does not produce four witnesses then according to Islamic law he cannot do anything about it. If however, he then decides to take the law into his own hands, this is then an act of vigilantism. Therefore, by taking this course of action he is now liable to be punished for having taken the matter illegally. Vigilantism is not allowed. Muslims must work according to the law. Going against the law and taking things into your own hands leads to anarchy. An Islamic society is not an anarchic society.
Do you understand?
I understand what vigilantism means. It is a term of Western law and morality and has nothing to do with Islamic law. If Islamic law does not allow it, it is certainly tolerant of it. That is the wrong example and has nothing to do with Honor killings. There is a diya to pay for the wife and for the man. No wonder Muhammed did not like this question and, in effect, did not answer it.
To go back to the original example - suppose a father forces his son to kill his daughter because she has shamed the family. Explain to me how Islamic law punishes either surviving party.
Muslims are, actually, allowed to take legal matters into their own hands. Some duties are for the community, but some are for the individual. I agree it does lead to anarchy, but there you are.
JustBinPraised
24-11-05, 11:32 AM
Well that is probably true. Does it matter?
Yes it does matter because I am wasting my time chatting with some who is making their arguments based on assumptions. When people do this they are a waste of time to debate with.
I understand what vigilantism means.
I think you don't ;)
That is the wrong example and has nothing to do with Honor killings. There is a diya to pay for the wife and for the man.
The example I gave to you would be defined as an honour killing if the man decided to take the matter into his own hands because he was DISHONOURED by his wife. Duhhhh!!!! Who the hell am I chatting too anyway? Sheeeesh!!
Muslims are, actually, allowed to take legal matters into their own hands. Some duties are for the community, but some are for the individual.
I am sorry but you are talking out of your arse! Individual Muslims are not allowed to take matters into their own hands.
To go back to the original example - suppose a father forces his son to kill his daughter because she has shamed the family. Explain to me how Islamic law punishes either surviving party.
Anyway, to make things easier for you, as you seem to have problems comprehending things, we shall use your example. HAPPY!!!?
If there is evidence to support that both father and son killed the daughter then both WOULD be liable for punishment. Simple as that. The blood money would not be applied in this situation for obvious reasons. Both would be punished accordingly.
So please, stop reading Christian books that try to explain Islamic law!
funny her aunt admitted it's a cultural thing. what gets me is people still follow the culture... over islamic values????:rubeyes:
Yes it does matter because I am wasting my time chatting with some who is making their arguments based on assumptions. When people do this they are a waste of time to debate with.
I am happy to cite texts if you like.
The example I gave to you would be defined as an honour killing if the man decided to take the matter into his own hands because he was DISHONOURED by his wife. Duhhhh!!!! Who the hell am I chatting too anyway? Sheeeesh!!
OK. If you like I will happily conceed that honor killings that involve people from other families are a different case. I made it clear, and I said as much, the problem is that Islam treats murder as a family affair. As long as it remains in the family it remains virtually unpunishable.
I am sorry but you are talking out of your arse! Individual Muslims are not allowed to take matters into their own hands.
Well yes they are. Some things are fard ayn and some are fard kifayah. If they are fard ayn Muslims are obliged to take matters into their own hands.
Anyway, to make things easier for you, as you seem to have problems comprehending things, we shall use your example. HAPPY!!!?
If there is evidence to support that both father and son killed the daughter then both WOULD be liable for punishment. Simple as that. The blood money would not be applied in this situation for obvious reasons. Both would be punished accordingly.
If only you did I would be. I did not say the Father did it. I said he made his son do it. How is he liable? What punishment would they be liable for and why is diya not applicable in this situation? Can you cite me any texts that would support your position? What obvious reasons?
So please, stop reading Christian books that try to explain Islamic law!
What makes you think I have done that? Have you read an Islamic one?
JustBinPraised
24-11-05, 11:57 AM
I am happy to cite texts if you like.
OK. If you like I will happily conceed that honor killings that involve people from other families are a different case. I made it clear, and I said as much, the problem is that Islam treats murder as a family affair. As long as it remains in the family it remains virtually unpunishable.
Well yes they are. Some things are fard ayn and some are fard kifayah. If they are fard ayn Muslims are obliged to take matters into their own hands.
If only you did I would be. I did not say the Father did it. I said he made his son do it. How is he liable? What punishment would they be liable for and why is diya not applicable in this situation? Can you cite me any texts that would support your position? What obvious reasons?
What makes you think I have done that? Have you read an Islamic one?
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
I will take that as a concession I was right on every single issue.
Can't say it has been a pleasure I am afraid.
imran1976
24-11-05, 02:14 PM
well my question is why saleema didn't want to marry Ahmad?
this is what i found in the post:
"I grew up with him Mousy and my heart has always seen him as my own brother and now suddenly everybody says I am gonna marry him and my marriage date is fixed without my permission." Saleema said tearfully. "
i don't find these reasons logical, Saleema will have to give a logical reason for refusal.........
& secondly saleema reacted too late, the date has been fixed.....!
well my question is why saleema didn't want to marry Ahmad?
this is what i found in the post:
"I grew up with him Mousy and my heart has always seen him as my own brother and now suddenly everybody says I am gonna marry him and my marriage date is fixed without my permission." Saleema said tearfully. "
i don't find these reasons logical, Saleema will have to give a logical reason for refusal.........
& secondly saleema reacted too late, the date has been fixed.....!
You don't find that logical? Traditionally in China, and especially in Taiwan, brides were in short supply. So families often swapped baby girls or otherwise adopted a girl. They raised her and when she was old enough they married her to a son. It was cheap, it was fairly reliable and the new bride was used to the household and so did not cause conflict with her Mother-in-law. The only problem was that the custom died out in the 1920s without it being made illegal. Brides and grooms simply refused to do it - after all while genetically there was nothing wrong with such marriages, it felt like marrying a brother. They had been raised together. I find that perfectly logical - would you really want to marry someone you'd seen having their nappies changed?
JustBinPraised
24-11-05, 02:32 PM
I will take that as a concession I was right on every single issue.
Can't say it has been a pleasure I am afraid.
Nope. It is like talking to a brick wall.
Chained_Water
24-11-05, 02:46 PM
well my question is why saleema didn't want to marry Ahmad?
this is what i found in the post:
"I grew up with him Mousy and my heart has always seen him as my own brother and now suddenly everybody says I am gonna marry him and my marriage date is fixed without my permission." Saleema said tearfully. "
i don't find these reasons logical, Saleema will have to give a logical reason for refusal.........
& secondly saleema reacted too late, the date has been fixed.....!
Why will she have to give a logical reason? :confused:
She doesn't want to marry him, simple as.
She has the RIGHT to choose who she wants to marry. If she feels unhappy with it and does not want and and does not feel she will be able to treat him like a wife should treat her husband or desire/think of him in that way.. that is logical and good enough a reason!
It is better than going into something unhappy and knowing you won't be comfortable with it and then having to divorce later.
I've heard "you need a good reason" so many times, why does a woman need a "good reason" to say no? Who defines what a good reason is? Should we just say yes to any tom **** and harry whom we don't like and have no desire to marry simply because he prays salaah and is ok in terms of deen or whatever?
Mujaheedah
24-11-05, 02:50 PM
sad story, but the truth is that it can in no way be associated with Islamic rules, the prophet (Saw) said women have a choice, the parents bring a person to show them but they always have the right to say yes or no.
I really hate when parents force marry people, I really hate it!
I can make your picture more visible. :hidban: you were looking down.
abdusamad
24-11-05, 02:56 PM
:scratch:
err she can refuse if she wants.
err she can refuse if she wants.
And yet the phenomenon continues. Perhaps it might have something to do with the honor killing part of this thread? You know, if a girl was afraid her father was going to kill her if she refused, she might not refuse. And if she is too afraid to object, and she is a virgin, her father can make her marry anyone he wants. As long as he is a Muslim. Unless of course the intended bride stands up and says she is not a virgin, but somehow I don't see that happening.
You see why your comment is not only not that relevant, it is also mildly insulting to those women who are forced into marriages they do not want?
JustBinPraised
24-11-05, 05:18 PM
And yet the phenomenon continues. Perhaps it might have something to do with the honor killing part of this thread? You know, if a girl was afraid her father was going to kill her if she refused, she might not refuse. And if she is too afraid to object, and she is a virgin, her father can make her marry anyone he wants. As long as he is a Muslim. Unless of course the intended bride stands up and says she is not a virgin, but somehow I don't see that happening.
You see why your comment is not only not that relevant, it is also mildly insulting to those women who are forced into marriages they do not want?
:rolleyes: You have much to learn, oh ignorant one. As I said before, talking with you would be like talking to a brick wall.
LiveIslam
24-11-05, 06:04 PM
true say justbin prasied
Al-Irhaab
24-11-05, 06:16 PM
well my question is why saleema didn't want to marry Ahmad?
this is what i found in the post:
"I grew up with him Mousy and my heart has always seen him as my own brother and now suddenly everybody says I am gonna marry him and my marriage date is fixed without my permission." Saleema said tearfully. "
i don't find these reasons logical, Saleema will have to give a logical reason for refusal.........
& secondly saleema reacted too late, the date has been fixed.....!
why is it too late? her reason is simple she doesnt want to marry him thats the only reason she needs... and even if the wedding date has been fixed she can turn him down.. she can even refuse on the wedding day right up to the minute she gives her consent. youve spoken like a true pakistani you have, astaghfirullah.
Al-Irhaab
24-11-05, 06:18 PM
:rolleyes: You have much to learn, oh ignorant one. As I said before, talking with you would be like talking to a brick wall.
why are you insulting a brick wall... what has the brick wall ever done to you. :mad:
imran1976
25-11-05, 05:33 AM
You don't find that logical? Traditionally in China, and especially in Taiwan, brides were in short supply. So families often swapped baby girls or otherwise adopted a girl. They raised her and when she was old enough they married her to a son. It was cheap, it was fairly reliable and the new bride was used to the household and so did not cause conflict with her Mother-in-law. The only problem was that the custom died out in the 1920s without it being made illegal. Brides and grooms simply refused to do it - after all while genetically there was nothing wrong with such marriages, it felt like marrying a brother. They had been raised together. I find that perfectly logical - would you really want to marry someone you'd seen having their nappies changed?
raising together doesn't necessarily mean that u have seen nappies changed....:rolleyes:
& would i want to marry someone whom i have seen been changed. my answer is "i'll not prefer that but in case i get marry than it's a valid marriage. It has been clearly defined in Quran whom we can marry & to whom we can't.........
imran1976
25-11-05, 05:38 AM
why is it too late? her reason is simple she doesnt want to marry him thats the only reason she needs... and even if the wedding date has been fixed she can turn him down.. she can even refuse on the wedding day right up to the minute she gives her consent. youve spoken like a true pakistani you have, astaghfirullah.
no need to go personal , kid !
imran1976
25-11-05, 06:08 AM
Why will she have to give a logical reason? :confused:
She doesn't want to marry him, simple as.
She has the RIGHT to choose who she wants to marry. If she feels unhappy with it and does not want and and does not feel she will be able to treat him like a wife should treat her husband or desire/think of him in that way.. that is logical and good enough a reason!
It is better than going into something unhappy and knowing you won't be comfortable with it and then having to divorce later.
I've heard "you need a good reason" so many times, why does a woman need a "good reason" to say no? Who defines what a good reason is? Should we just say yes to any tom **** and harry whom we don't like and have no desire to marry simply because he prays salaah and is ok in terms of deen or whatever?
who said that u say yes to any tom,****,harry etc.etc. what abt Ali,salman,Tariq?
naturally as a father i wud like to know what's wrong in these ppl's. Are they drinkers/adulterers etc. etc. or u just don't wanna marry coz u don't wanna marry!
imran1976
25-11-05, 06:23 AM
Why will she have to give a logical reason? :confused:
She doesn't want to marry him, simple as.
No! it's not that simple. To refuse when everything is set or to refuse just one day/few moments b4 marriage he/she has to give a valid reason for that
yes it wud have been simple as' if he/she had refused at the right time!
& i don't understand why every issue/problem relates back to woman, this forced marriage thing also applies to man......:D
imran1976
25-11-05, 06:37 AM
It is better than going into something unhappy and knowing you won't be comfortable with it and then having to divorce later.
hahaha, that made be laugh sis. Trust me & Allah knows it, i have seen quite a few
happily forced marriages........:D
i have heard girls/boys saying "O' mom we r thankful, u have chosen the best" though these same were crying at the time of marriage....
now mostly the reason for refusal i have seen is that he/she is in love with someone else.:smack:
imran1976
25-11-05, 06:53 AM
3-4 months back i proposed one of my cousins for my younger brother. My brother
refused' i simply asked him why? he didn't gave me any specific reason & said i just
don't wanna marry her.
i wasn't impressed with his answer & was very straightforward with him " see kid either give a reason or get ready for the marriage"
lol, it worked my brother gave me a reason though not convincing to me but i have to move on with his wish.......
see CW not only the sisters but brothers also have to give a reason....:D
one thing more, had my brother refused just few days b4 marriage than he wud have been in trouble................
peace2u
25-11-05, 07:03 AM
I feel sorry for people who are forced to marry people who they were 1) not consulted in the beginning 2) threatened into it 3) put down or harmed if they refuse.
Peace
:rolleyes: You have much to learn, oh ignorant one. As I said before, talking with you would be like talking to a brick wall.
Ahh well, what can I say? Dawa is a religious duty and the harder it is the more you will be rewarded. So perhaps you might like to point out the flaw in my argument and explain where I went wrong?
By her decision Saleema showed much character and respect toward the ex-groom. We not have the right to play with noone life so if she felt will not be able to be a good wife to him ,she took the right step. Would have been much worst to marry with him and divorce after x time. Same its available for the mens too.
This is just bloody stupid (and half the other "discussions" that have took place in this section of the forum. Peanuts for brain's is the phrase tht comes to mind)
What constitutes a "good reason" for refusing a proposal? A reason which may not seem good enough for others may very well be good enough for the prospective bride/groom.
If you believe its nerve's or they are apprehensive about marriage itself, then sit them down and talk about it, not "thats not good enough, u are marrying him/her and thats it"
And after that, give them time to think about it. If they still don't wish to marry the said person do not badger them for giving a "proper" reason, respect their decision.
Al-Irhaab
27-11-05, 01:16 PM
This is just bloody stupid (and half the other "discussions" that have took place in this section of the forum. Peanuts for brain's is the phrase tht comes to mind)
What constitutes a "good reason" for refusing a proposal? A reason which may not seem good enough for others may very well be good enough for the prospective bride/groom.
If you believe its nerve's or they are apprehensive about marriage itself, then sit them down and talk about it, not "thats not good enough, u are marrying him/her and thats it"
And after that, give them time to think about it. If they still don't wish to marry the said person do not badger them for giving a "proper" reason, respect their decision.
a good reason is I dont want to marry you cus ..... I dont want to marry you.... that always worked for me :rolleyes: is the best reason to give... that way the other person knows there is no chance no matter what they do to badger you...
Al-Irhaab
27-11-05, 01:20 PM
one thing more, had my brother refused just few days b4 marriage than he wud have been in trouble................
agreed if the man changes his mind like 5 minutes before the wedding he deserves a slap even though his wishes shld be respected he shld still get a slap... because he prob has caused a lot of stress to the sis... however with a sis... if she is not happy and she decides even 1 min before thats her choice... she cannot divorce as easily later...
there is a hadith abt a woman who came to the prophet (Saw) and said my parents forced me to marry someone... and the prophet (Saw) gave her a choice either to divorce or stay with the person and she said she wanted to stay with him but wanted to let the women know they have a choice...
3-4 months back i proposed one of my cousins for my younger brother. My brother
refused' i simply asked him why? he didn't gave me any specific reason & said i just
don't wanna marry her.
i wasn't impressed with his answer & was very straightforward with him " see kid either give a reason or get ready for the marriage"
If you were my older brother i would have punched you right in the nose. Your brothers reasons have to stand upto your expectations? What constitutes a good reason? Even better, what constitues a bad reason?
Also, the constant insinuation that backing out 5 minutes before marriage isnt acceptable is hopeless. Backingout of a marriage 5 minutes after a nikah is worse. If a person decides that 2 days before a marriage they dont want to get married then deal with it, i know its a real pain in the preverbial becuase it would inconvenience you, however, its thier life so back off.
imran1976
28-11-05, 11:50 AM
If you were my older brother i would have punched you right in the nose. Your brothers reasons have to stand upto your expectations? What constitutes a good reason? Even better, what constitues a bad reason?
Also, the constant insinuation that backing out 5 minutes before marriage isnt acceptable is hopeless. Backingout of a marriage 5 minutes after a nikah is worse. If a person decides that 2 days before a marriage they dont want to get married then deal with it, i know its a real pain in the preverbial becuase it would inconvenience you, however, its thier life so back off.
I think u didn’t read my post carefully!
Naturally if someone says NO’ there has to be a reason for it. I just wanted to inquire & got the answer. Never forced him into anything!
lol, my brothers will think 1000 times b4 punching me, hahaha they still remember that I used to make them tap out……….:D .
hmmmm jimm being my lil brother & punching me. I don’t think so ‘ lil brother b4 u’r punch reaches my nose, u’ll find ur’self begging for life & I’m not gonna have any sort of mercy…………;)
I think u didn’t read my post carefully!
Naturally if someone says NO’ there has to be a reason for it. I just wanted to inquire & got the answer. Never forced him into anything!
lol, my brothers will think 1000 times b4 punching me, hahaha they still remember that I used to make them tap out……….:D .
hmmmm jimm being my lil brother & punching me. I don’t think so ‘ lil brother b4 u’r punch reaches my nose, u’ll find ur’self begging for life & I’m not gonna have any sort of mercy…………;)
i think you didnt read my post properly. I think the sex education ad's on TV may highlight my situation. No means No. That is, you dont need a reason why someone says no. If you want to have sex with your wife and she says no, you going to ask her to write an essay about why she said no? Of course not, your going park little johniie back in his garage and go back to sleep.
Let me say this again, if someone says No then they DONT need a reason or explanation to make YOU feel better about it.
Now regaring me begging for my life, i have never understood this thing about guys. You havnt even seen me, know nothing about me yet you are sure that i will be begging for my life. Interesting that one can be so confident.
Al-Irhaab
29-11-05, 10:40 AM
i think you didnt read my post properly. I think the sex education ad's on TV may highlight my situation. No means No. That is, you dont need a reason why someone says no. If you want to have sex with your wife and she says no, you going to ask her to write an essay about why she said no? Of course not, your going park little johniie back in his garage and go back to sleep.
Let me say this again, if someone says No then they DONT need a reason or explanation to make YOU feel better about it.
Now regaring me begging for my life, i have never understood this thing about guys. You havnt even seen me, know nothing about me yet you are sure that i will be begging for my life. Interesting that one can be so confident.
are u muslim?
are u muslim?
If i know corectly he is muslim. Why are you asking? Because he has another point of view?
Al-Irhaab
29-11-05, 05:12 PM
If i know corectly he is muslim. Why are you asking? Because he has another point of view?
nope just asking to make sure I address him properly... mashallah hes muslim i agreed with most of what he said ... marriage is the choice of either partner full stop no ifs no buts..
nope just asking to make sure I address him properly... mashallah hes muslim i agreed with most of what he said ... marriage is the choice of either partner full stop no ifs no buts..
:) You need to wait until he will be online.
imran1976
30-11-05, 04:33 AM
i think you didnt read my post properly. I think the sex education ad's on TV may highlight my situation. No means No. That is, you dont need a reason why someone says no. If you want to have sex with your wife and she says no, you going to ask her to write an essay about why she said no? Of course not, your going park little johniie back in his garage and go back to sleep.
Let me say this again, if someone says No then they DONT need a reason or explanation to make YOU feel better about it.
Now regaring me begging for my life, i have never understood this thing about guys. You havnt even seen me, know nothing about me yet you are sure that i will be begging for my life. Interesting that one can be so confident.
u have u'r viewpoint & i have mine! problem solved...............
ya very true u never seen me & yet u punched my nose......:D
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