Debating with non Muslims - Help appreciated [Archive] - Ummah.com

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Zaahir

31-08-05, 01:02 PM

JustBinPraised

31-08-05, 01:17 PM

EducateMe

31-08-05, 01:29 PM

Critising those extremist fundamentalists who use interpretations of Islam to justify crime against humanity and further debating the role of Islam in modern secular societies is vitally important in my view. If you position is that Islam is, must be and always will be the definitive final answer, no questions asked, then its hard to debate anything what so ever. And Islam is like any living religion, with many intepretations, schools of thought and debate. Uniting this with wider social discourse must surley be of massive importance for the future of both Islam and the world at large. There will always be those who disagree with your point of view, both Muslim and none muslim (like myself), I don't think that debating how SOME Muslims are drawn to violence by their faith is illigitamte however, if this issue isn't at the top of the agenda for modern Muslims then there is something wrong. If it was fellow Liverpool supporters, fellow Britains or other young working class white males who were perpretrating crimes against humanity I would expect to be asked to participate in debate, even if having significant things in common with these people dosent make me guilty be association.

Haz

07-09-05, 12:54 PM

I always had this analogy of mine when it comes to debating with non-muslims.

" If your mind is set on hating something on to an extreme that youll hate it regardless to whatever good therese init you'll still hate it , because you want to hate it".

You can provide them with facts and information so that we could have an understanding. Muslims seems to be more knowledgeble about other religions therefore there are more tolarent towards people of various backgrounds. The vice versa is not always the same.

When you give them the knowledge about Islam you benefit with two aspects. One the person gets to know what islam is really about and two you develop an understanding.

sub

07-09-05, 01:43 PM

salams, brothers

i've talked to a few non-muslims before, and it's pretty obvious that forum-talking is NOT the best way to carry a discussion of any sort, especially not one that discusses such a great issue (but that, of course shouldn't stop us). i agree with both sides of the argument to certain extents.
firstly, some people will not listen no matter how hard you try, or how well you convey the message to them. some are too entrenched in their views to even consider another. but, subhanallah, that doesn't mean you don't convey the message.
think of it this way, you are coming with a message that has the potential to knock their way of life flat...it's natural to become defensive over ideas close to the heart. the main idea, from my perspective, would be to keep coming at them, and, inshallah, they will come around. if, however, you aren't able to keep your cool, then it's probably better to stay away from those sorts of people for a while. you won't achieve anything by yelling at them. some people may only be here to stir up the community and not get involved in a real discussion.

in the end, it is upon us to carry this deen forward. of that, there is no doubt. so either, change your approach to the topic so that the person in question can appreciate where you're coming from better, or leave them be for a while and come back later, if you can.

wassalam,

sub

Haz

07-09-05, 05:10 PM

There was one occasion at our Uni where things really got ugly that the whole reception area got crowded with muslims and christians arguing about nothing. You needed the security to clear them off.

Debating doesnt help. Thats not how you learn or pass out a message.

a mu-min

07-09-05, 11:27 PM

The best way is face to face, start with your neighbors inshallah.

carol_au

08-09-05, 01:41 AM

Peace to you all

may as a non-muslim say I agree with a couple of writers here? Mu-min face to face is the best.. although I find internet chat is good when face to face is not possible.

I have learned much about Islam by chatting on msn with various people who have made contact with me.

May I also say discussion is better than debate? I say this to Christians as much as to Muslims. Debate shuts the door on people being willing to learn or even explore their own faith. Discussion provokes interest in learning more. Haz and Sub I have to agree with both your posts in this regard

Just a few thoughts frfom a non-muslim :-)

btw .. that's why i started project-abraham. I wanted to ensure discussion and not debate occured in all interfaith discussion. Discussion does not mean agreement, but it means that there is mutual respect and this is much more likely to lead to change of opinions.

Anyway, just my thoughts

Be blessed

Chief Thread Hijacker

08-09-05, 02:00 AM

Assalamualakum

I have been recently made aware of comments being made on forum regarding Muslims and Islam. As this is a South Africa website have decided to try to end some misconceptions. The problem is these the individuals on this forum are so (...i dont have a word to describe them) that no matter how much we put Quraan and Hadith is front of them to prove that Islam DOES NOT promote terrorism and hatred, they just seem to throw it back in our faces.

How can we fix the perception of Islam today?

Here are the links for those who want to view the forums:
Is the law alway right (http://forums.prophecy.co.za/showthread.php?t=12250)
Gaza Pullout (http://forums.prophecy.co.za/showthread.php?t=12250)
Islam Role in the world today (http://forums.prophecy.co.za/showthread.php?t=10846)
It was a matter of time (http://forums.prophecy.co.za/showthread.php?t=10587)
Time magazine article on Islam (http://forums.prophecy.co.za/showthread.php?t=11125)

what to do...what to do?

Sorry, muslims can put all these Quran verses that talks about love and peace but as long as they cheer on deaths of civilians, especially of those of their nation, call for more terrorist attacks, try to change the way of life/gov't form in the west, and state they won't cooperate with police to track down terrorists (Bakri) none of them are useful at all.
Not all Americans or the Gov't it self is out to get Muslims, otherwise you won't be seeing Muslims in the streets of the West, but paranoia by muslims here are not useful in changing Islamic perception in the West.

a mu-min

08-09-05, 02:21 AM

If the west are doing what you said they would revealing their true stand, so they have to manipulate things. what do you know about deaths of civilians,

Here is a little taks, compare the Number of civilians your Govt killed with the ones the terrorist killed, you can also check the number of prioners that were tortured by both sides.
Many americans come to islam cause they know it's the truth, and I mean MANY.

sub

08-09-05, 06:19 AM

Sorry, muslims can put all these Quran verses that talks about love and peace but as long as they cheer on deaths of civilians, especially of those of their nation, call for more terrorist attacks, try to change the way of life/gov't form in the west, and state they won't cooperate with police to track down terrorists (Bakri) none of them are useful at all.
Not all Americans or the Gov't it self is out to get Muslims, otherwise you won't be seeing Muslims in the streets of the West, but paranoia by muslims here are not useful in changing Islamic perception in the West.

it seems that you are judging the whole by the actions of a few. there is no muslim organisation in the west that promotes violence. some things in the media is more publicised than others, so the comments of a few are replayed over and over. no one judges the christians as pedophiles though some (a select minority) choose to practice that. everyone knows that's not what christianity is about. it seems awkward to a muslim viewer of recent events in the media and elsewhere that we have to comment on the comments raised by a few.

actually, the impression of the "western governments" from a muslim's perspective is a little different to the view you've promoted. there is talk of banning the hijab here in australia where i live. it's a small issue at the moment (because it has been rejected by parliament), but looking to france, you can see how far some things go. here it's a little worse, because the hijab alone is targetted, and not any of the other religious symbols worn in public.

i'm not sure where you saw people were cheering the deaths of civilians, but it is natural to feel sympathy for the brothers and sisters in the heart of the struggle, be it in iraq, afghanistan, or elsewhere. it doesn't seem congruent that one would feel empathy for those oppressed and also support the instigators of the oppression. i don't think killing of innocent civilians is justified. but why can that not extend to areas outside the "west"?

wassalam,

sub

Chief Thread Hijacker

08-09-05, 08:12 PM

it seems that you are judging the whole by the actions of a few. there is no muslim organisation in the west that promotes violence. some things in the media is more publicised than others, so the comments of a few are replayed over and over. no one judges the christians as pedophiles though some (a select minority) choose to practice that. everyone knows that's not what christianity is about. it seems awkward to a muslim viewer of recent events in the media and elsewhere that we have to comment on the comments raised by a few.
Sorry, this few thing is not correct. A GREAT percentage of Muslims through out the world sympathizes with acts of terror, althought it is dropping. And we have bunch of people in this Forum alone with Bin Laden avatar like he's some great figure to Muslims and also there have been calling for more Katrina type hurricanes by people in this forum even though they know the amount of destruction it causes to people. Still the Forum (Islamic) Allows these kind of trash. But when a non-muslim come on to this forum and praise the deaths of Muslims during the Tsunami, he will be viewed as evil, anti-Islam etc... and banned from this forum. These kind of trash flow only because someone or something is allowing it. I have no problem with muslims, i have some muslim friends my self, but i do have problem with Radical Muslims.
actually, the impression of the "western governments" from a muslim's perspective is a little different to the view you've promoted. there is talk of banning the hijab here in australia where i live. it's a small issue at the moment (because it has been rejected by parliament), but looking to france, you can see how far some things go. here it's a little worse, because the hijab alone is targetted, and not any of the other religious symbols worn in public.
Hijab is banned in gov't buildings in France, not public, as well as other religion symbols other than Islam, including Christian symbol like large crucifix, even though 70% of French population are Christians.
i'm not sure where you saw people were cheering the deaths of civilians, but it is natural to feel sympathy for the brothers and sisters in the heart of the struggle, be it in iraq, afghanistan, or elsewhere. it doesn't seem congruent that one would feel empathy for those oppressed and also support the instigators of the oppression. i don't think killing of innocent civilians is justified. but why can that not extend to areas outside the "west"?
Right after 9-11, there were muslims in other nations on the streets, crying with joy. Some were even bitter that Osama did not blow up the White House. And we have people in this forum here praising the deaths caused by Katrina and are calling for more. Terrorism and War are two different things, US does not intentionally kill civilians, while Terrorism's purpose is to kill civilians intentionally just to get attention. Also, terrorists don't wear uniforms, soldiers of war do. You want to feel sympathy for brothers and sisters of yours in Iraq and Afghanistan? You mean the peaceful majority who just want to live a normal life or the trouble making minority who go up blowing up Mosques with car bombs and market bombs and people like Talibans who bought hardship to many Afghans. How about supporting them AGAINST the insurgents there. Remember last month when someone yelled INSURGENTS/SUICIDE BOMBERS and everybody ran? Why are they running away from those Freedom Fighters who are there to free the Iraqis? One can only imagine... :)

wassalam,

sub

sub

09-09-05, 04:43 AM

Sorry, this few thing is not correct. A GREAT percentage of Muslims through out the world sympathizes with acts of terror, althought it is dropping. And we have bunch of people in this Forum alone with Bin Laden avatar like he's some great figure to Muslims and also there have been calling for more Katrina type hurricanes by people in this forum even though they know the amount of destruction it causes to people. Still the Forum (Islamic) Allows these kind of trash. But when a non-muslim come on to this forum and praise the deaths of Muslims during the Tsunami, he will be viewed as evil, anti-Islam etc... and banned from this forum. These kind of trash flow only because someone or something is allowing it. I have no problem with muslims, i have some muslim friends my self, but i do have problem with Radical Muslims.

ok, firstly, i'm not going to discuss the comments of others on these forums, because i cannot - it is not my place to do so. having bin laden on your avatar doesn't mean they support him. that seems like the wrong conclusion to jump to, to me atleast. again, you'd have to ask those who do use his avatar.
secondly, i'm not sure what you were shown in your media, but here, we saw the people of iraq, iran and other middle eastern countries celebrating the attack (that was all for about a week). now what you have to realise is that most of those people have had american, and/or "western" influence in their countries. they have been placed a dictator over them - they have been oppressed. and then to see the oppressor be hit at their own home would be something to celebrate. the DEATH of the people were not celebrated. firstly, the majority that was shown in the media here, were countries in the middle eastern region.
to get a better picture of what is being celebrated, put yourself in their shoes. the attack woud seem an attack on the whole of america - the symbol of their oppression.
as for katrina, those who say what you've claimed they have, may see it as divine retribution. whether it is, or not, is not up to me to decide. however, the effect of katrina has forced the us to shift an attention from iraq to their own lands. that, maybe what the brothers/sisters may be praising. it is NOT the death. i can almost guarantee that. but to be sure, ask those those who said it.

Hijab is banned in gov't buildings in France, not public, as well as other religion symbols other than Islam, including Christian symbol like large crucifix, even though 70% of French population are Christians.

my argument doesn't lie in what happened in france. as i said, here it's a little worse, because the hijab alone is targetted, and not any of the other religious symbols worn in public.
in australia, there was talk of removing the hijab, and hijab only.
Right after 9-11, there were muslims in other nations on the streets, crying with joy. Some were even bitter that Osama did not blow up the White House. And we have people in this forum here praising the deaths caused by Katrina and are calling for more. Terrorism and War are two different things, US does not intentionally kill civilians, while Terrorism's purpose is to kill civilians intentionally just to get attention. Also, terrorists don't wear uniforms, soldiers of war do. You want to feel sympathy for brothers and sisters of yours in Iraq and Afghanistan? You mean the peaceful majority who just want to live a normal life or the trouble making minority who go up blowing up Mosques with car bombs and market bombs and people like Talibans who bought hardship to many Afghans. How about supporting them AGAINST the insurgents there. Remember last month when someone yelled INSURGENTS/SUICIDE BOMBERS and everybody ran? Why are they running away from those Freedom Fighters who are there to free the Iraqis? One can only imagine...

I'm not so sure about the US not intentionally killing civilians. they were dropping yellow mines on the afghanis, as well as aid (which also happened to be yellow...) what about the pharmacy in sudan that was bombed. it did no more than produce paracetemols, but its destruction was "warranted".
terrorism as taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear or The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

let's be very clear about "terrorism" and define it as above. if you don't like that definition from a universal source, find and post another (along with the source). terrorism is more than just what you see the muslims doing. if you want to look at terrorism as only what muslims can do, then you are taking a narrow approach. why does the "terrorism" of the west, which is the calculated use of intimidation and coercion to push their political and/or ideological views overlooked? the blame game can be played by both sides. it doesn't further your argument.

as for your sarcastic comment about the "freedom fighters", i don't see how people would want to die. if you were told that someone was about to blow themselves up next to you, i think you'd run too. it's the human instinct of self-preservation.

lol, sorry, i've gotta go, so i'll leave it there, inshallah

wassalam,

sub

Chief Thread Hijacker

11-09-05, 12:14 AM

ok, firstly, i'm not going to discuss the comments of others on these forums, because i cannot - it is not my place to do so. having bin laden on your avatar doesn't mean they support him. that seems like the wrong conclusion to jump to, to me atleast. again, you'd have to ask those who do use his avatar.
So what does it mean? If a person has pictures of Adolt Hitler in his room that shows Adolf Hitler standing tall and being tough, what conclusion can you draw?
secondly, i'm not sure what you were shown in your media, but here, we saw the people of iraq, iran and other middle eastern countries celebrating the attack (that was all for about a week). now what you have to realise is that most of those people have had american, and/or "western" influence in their countries. they have been placed a dictator over them - they have been oppressed. and then to see the oppressor be hit at their own home would be something to celebrate. the DEATH of the people were not celebrated. firstly, the majority that was shown in the media here, were countries in the middle eastern region.
Wrong, only in Iran did US put in a dictator and that was because the guy that was in power was nationalizing oil industry, thus taking away British and American oil assets that they paid money for. US didn't place a dictator elsewhere in Middle East.
to get a better picture of what is being celebrated, put yourself in their shoes. the attack woud seem an attack on the whole of america - the symbol of their oppression.
US wasn't oppressing anyone in Middle East before 9-11.
as for katrina, those who say what you've claimed they have, may see it as divine retribution. whether it is, or not, is not up to me to decide. however, the effect of katrina has forced the us to shift an attention from iraq to their own lands. that, maybe what the brothers/sisters may be praising. it is NOT the death. i can almost guarantee that. but to be sure, ask those those who said it.
Some guy in Katrina topic thread was calling for DESTRUCTION of INHIBITANTS, i repeat, INHIBITANTS, as well as the city. I believe it was Al Nesser, not sure though. But i did read someone stating that.

my argument doesn't lie in what happened in france. as i said,
in australia, there was talk of removing the hijab, and hijab only.
I'm not so sure about the US not intentionally killing civilians. they were dropping yellow mines on the afghanis, as well as aid (which also happened to be yellow...) what about the pharmacy in sudan that was bombed. it did no more than produce paracetemols, but its destruction was "warranted".
terrorism as taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=terrorism or
Yellow mines? What the hell is yellow mine? Don't you think if US is intentionally killing civilians then Iraqis casualties would be much higher or atleast Iraqis will run away whenever they see a US patrol soldiers like how they ran away from suicide bombers last month?
let's be very clear about "terrorism" and define it as above. if you don't like that definition from a universal source, find and post another (along with the source). terrorism is more than just what you see the muslims doing. if you want to look at terrorism as only what muslims can do, then you are taking a narrow approach. why does the "terrorism" of the west, which is the calculated use of intimidation and coercion to push their political and/or ideological views overlooked? the blame game can be played by both sides. it doesn't further your argument.
War and Terrorism is two different thing, soldiers wear uniforms to show who they are so people can know, terrorists do not.
as for your sarcastic comment about the "freedom fighters", i don't see how people would want to die. if you were told that someone was about to blow themselves up next to you, i think you'd run too. it's the human instinct of self-preservation.
Well i thought those *Freedom Fighters :rotfl:* were fighting for Iraqis? The fact that Iraqi civilians run away from their *Freedom Fighters* and not the murderous US soldiers is saying something :).
lol, sorry, i've gotta go, so i'll leave it there, inshallah

wassalam,

sub

carol_au

11-09-05, 12:34 PM

Peace to you all

May I just say that unfortunately many things that are written are exaggerated and this makes more problems than it solves.

Let me give you an example

Sub who is from my own country said this

actually, the impression of the "western governments" from a muslim's perspective is a little different to the view you've promoted. there is talk of banning the hijab here in australia where i live. it's a small issue at the moment (because it has been rejected by parliament), but looking to france, you can see how far some things go. here it's a little worse, because the hijab alone is targetted, and not any of the other religious symbols worn in public.

The talk of the hijab being banned was the words of two women politicians. It was immediately rejected by parliament. It created discussion on the radio about the reason for the wearing of the hijab (even on Christian radio stations.)

Please let me show you the true state of affairs in Australia. Please note, I posted this last year on my own forum at project-abraham

Police officer to wear Muslim headpiece

Maha Sukkar made Victoria Police history by becoming the force's first officer to wear the traditional Muslim headpiece.

Constable Sukkar, who was born in Lebanon, came to Australia two years ago.

After graduating on Friday Constable Sukkar will take up a role with the transit police in February.

"This is a very proud day for me and my family," she said.

Constable Sukkar was closely involved in the design process for the newly developed velcro hijab, which she will wear on duty.

The specially designed headwear had to be designed to meet both religious and occupational health and safety standards.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/041126/2/rwuk.html

I'm sure the link won't be there now, but you can see that in fact Australia's attitude to the hijab is very progressive I think.

So let's not exaggerate when we discuss together. Certainly we can raise issues and I agree with Sub, the issue of Australia's recent discussion should be talked about, but the truth is that even our police force allows Muslim women to wear the hijab if they wish to.