Do Muslims have a duty to combat extremism, and is it being fullfilled....

[EducateMe]

ORGINALLY POSTED AS RESPONSE TO BABER AHMED AND BBC JIHAD.COM DOCUMENTARY THREAD;

As a none-religious, secular, white Britain I would like some help in understanding what, I regret to say, is the ‘other-side’ of a public discourse in our nation. This thread, which I chanced upon whilst researching the wider Jihad online issue, may serve as a good opportunity to engage in such a debate. Please be patient with me and not see my comments as a focus of anger, but as a genuine reflection of what, I hope, is the considered yet undeniably (perhaps inescapably) emotive position of many British people.



I have viewed the free Baber Ahmed web pages and am naturally concerned for the rights of a potentially innocent man. Further the shooting of Jean Charles DeMenezes, the frequent reports of torture from Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere along with a warmongering and inflammatory stance from political leaders in the west obviously make a widespread anger and feeling of injustice amongst Muslims easy to understand.



However, what can we say about those who are involved in the active promotion of an ideology which glorifies the murder of innocent men women and children? What this has to do with Islam I do not know, and I’m sure many of you don’t either. But how are we as a nation to deal with this threat, a threat which is clearly based upon a bedrock of ideas and images traded and displayed via the internet.



The BBC for some time now have shown worrying signs of sensationalism and, believe me, I view many of their programmes with some scepticism. This does not change the fact that men of education, thoughtfulness and standing in their communities ARE actively and tacitly supporting breeding grounds of hateful ideology. Shouldn’t Muslims be as enraged as I am by this evil as they are by the undeniable evil of the many injustices perpetrated by the US and its allies?



If this anger exists, where is it to be found? Not on this forum it would seem, and not in many other ‘Islamic’ web sources. Doesn’t every British Muslim owe it to their country and to humanity to both speak out against injustice against Muslims but too also stand up, vocally and visibly, against the perverted and evil doctrine of radical fundamentalists? Are these people a tiny minority, yes, do they represent Islam, no, is the British media reactionary and emotive, of course; BUT does any of this absolve the Muslim community from its responsibility, surely not.



So, and in keeping with my screen name, I would greatly appreciate it if one or more amongst you would be so kind as to direct me to the “root out Jihad” web page, or a web forum with lively debates on how to tackle extremism, how to oppose its ideology and how to prevent disengaged youngsters from being taken in by it? Anything in fact, from a UK Muslim perspective, which vocalizes an anger and resolve to action following the horrific murder’s on 7/7.



If you have as much trouble finding such resources and such debates as I have, then we all have a problem. I fear that as long as the perception exits that most Muslims, however moderate, are more concerned with voicing anger against Blair, Bush and the rest than they are with the evil next-door then a widening gulf in our society can only worsen. In the words of the late great George Orwell, “all it takes for evil to flourish, if for good men to say nothing”. Any thoughts would be greatly apprecitated.

[Lion]

Only if it is commited by non-muslims, when muslims commit extremism, it is ok because they are muslims, they are doing for Allah. haha

[Qayyim]

The poster before this had apparently eaten the "fermented" cheese... from when the goat sat too long...in the heat during EID...

But anyway...

I was taught by my Imam, that it is my duty...all muslims duty... and all that profess to be believers (and all that follow the "straight and narrow path"...the "salatal mustaqeem" sp?) to stand up and denounce all wrongful deeds...regardless of whom perpetrate them...

I've personally been stabbed (once) and shot (once) after getting out of the car to help a stranger in need...(later to find that they were "kafirun")...

Yes... ALL Believers should stand up...and condemn the wrong-doing...


The violence against eventual democracy is absurd...
Democracy doesn't mean condoned debaucery...
Democracy in the middle east will allow the common everyday people to have a say as to how their day to day existence is experienced...

Qayyim

[.: Anna :.]

Yes many of us don't agree with acts like bombing tube etc, and I have yet to come accross anyone who supported that or thought it was a good idea.

We've posted articles against terrorism on the forum, although often this discussion happens in the "muslim forum" (a private area of ummah.com/forum).

If we knew of someone who we thought had tendancies to blow them self up, or was misguided in some way then it is our duty that we should persuade them against their action and give them sincere advise.. however, I don't know anyone like that. There is a difference between those who support mujahideen in occupied muslim lands to those (very very few) who think it is ok to attack civillians inside the UK.

As for a "root out Jihad website" - I am not exactly sure what you mean?? Jihad IS a part of our faith and I would be extremely skeptical of any "anti jihad" website. To make that would be a sin actually because how can we try to get rid of something which Allah ordained for us. HOWEVER you have to remember that tube bombs are not Jihad!! :rolleyes:

One reason why you prob won't find many of those type of website is because we Muslims get a little bit sick of apologising all the time. These crimes were not done in the name of Islam. Also alot of people have questioned whether those 'suicide bombers' of July 7th were really guilty or were they just fitted up? They have not seen enough evidence to convince them of that. Some people, as soon as the bomb happened before they even started to blame Muslims... they started apologising already, knowing that the blame will be given to our community :rolleyes:

Of course if a wrong deed is done, be it by a Muslim or non Muslim then we condemn it and we do not agree but what will a website acheive? We don't want to make a site to demonise Bin Laden, and to demonise the accused suicide bombers of 7/7 etc, personally I think that would achieve absolutely nothing and there is a definite risk in such a website of falling into slander, backbiting and such (which are prohibited).

Another thing, those kind of websites which you suggest are just the kind of thing all the non Muslim people seem to want, but I think it will do more harm than good because in a way it is creating a bigger divide in the Muslim community between the "extremists" and everyone else. Most of these so called extremists of course are harmless and good muslims. You know when we feel like we are all being labelled as terrorist and blamed by the West for this that and the other, it can actually push people further in the other way. Rather than turning them into the "western ideal of a muslim" (many non muslims etc seem to want us to take a watered down version of Islam), some people become more stubborn and firm in their religion and politically they could become more militant against the west.

[Qayyim]

Directed to "EducateMe"...

There are no "stop the Jihad" websites because...

As I understand it... "Jihad" merely means "Struggle"

We as Muslims are all directed to "Struggle" (Jihad)

"Struggle" doesn't mean blowing up innocents, or fighting against what is right...

We all "struggle" daily with shiatan, and we all "struggle" daily to walk the "straight and narrow path"... and it just so happens that YES..."struggle" may unfortunatly include war!

Qayyim
!

[Haz]

In a country that practices Islamic Law it is easy to root out extremism. You can clearly signal out what is extremism and what is not. The problem i see in Britain is that every man who grows a beard and every women who wears the hijab is considered as an extremist ,whilst these are the basic requirements a muslim must adhere to.

The Shariah it self defines what is extremism. But sadly when someone comes out and spills out his views which are extreme by any standards and harmful to the community there is no one to stop them due to their rights for freedom of speech. And since also they are muslims the consequences of their actions is blamed on the muslim community, which is an easy way out for the government from execpting the blame.

The character of a muslim is that if he sees evil he has to stop it by his actions or by his speech or hate it in his heart.

However, what can we say about those who are involved in the active promotion of an ideology which glorifies the murder of innocent men women and children? What this has to do with Islam I do not know, and I’m sure many of you don’t either. But how are we as a nation to deal with this threat, a threat which is clearly based upon a bedrock of ideas and images traded and displayed via the internet.

One solution that i feel which will benefit the community is to have good communication with muslims. The individuals who represent muslims should be highly educated scholars who have spend most of their lives studying about islam and not an ordinary bloke who knows nothing of his religion or just because he is an MP. If you start judging a muslim under someother law then most of us will be viewed as extremist.

If this anger exists, where is it to be found? Not on this forum it would seem, and not in many other ‘Islamic’ web sources. Doesn’t every British Muslim owe it to their country and to humanity to both speak out against injustice against Muslims but too also stand up, vocally and visibly, against the perverted and evil doctrine of radical fundamentalists? Are these people a tiny minority, yes, do they represent Islam, no, is the British media reactionary and emotive, of course; BUT does any of this absolve the Muslim community from its responsibility, surely not.

Terrorism is not a problem of a single community and signalling out one particular community as the cause of it is an easy way out of responcibilty from execpting the blame. When a nation is obressed or invaded every citizen would want to retaliate or do something about it. This is nothing different to what Britain faced during world war 2, where many went inside Hitlor's territory to carry out sucide missions. When muslims see their fellow muslims being oppressed, their countries invaded and thrown in to Jail, their natural responce as humans is to do something about it. The results of their actions are from their own desires and use their own interpritation of Islam for justification.

And the non-muslims jump in to the band wagon of accusing Islam, when it has nothing to do with it.

Is it justified to say all white-British are murderers just because Shipman murdered 50 odd of his patient , or all are kidnappers and phedophiles because someone murdered and rape a child.

The answer for most would be a 'no'. The causes for 7/7 is deeply rooted somehwere else. The leaders of western nations have also used the escape root of saying terrorism started way before september 11. The truth is most or all of the terrorist threats came after the US army was stationed in Saudi Arabia. Has there ever been a terrorist attack in Britain before 7/7 apart from the IRA? It is only after the invasion of Iraq that terrorist threatned Britain.

Terrorism does not have a religion, a race or a country. Its a global problem and everyone should do their best to prevent it.

[Qayyim]

It doesn't matter WHEN terrorism started...

It is not the right path...

Qayyim Umar Al-Maliki Muhadeeb

[peapod]

In the words of the late great George Orwell, “all it takes for evil to flourish, if for good men to say nothing”. Any thoughts would be greatly apprecitated.


it wasnt george orwell - it was edmund burke

[AbuMubarak]

a "Stop the Jihad" website?

that is too funny

muslims have to abandon jihad because 50 Londoners get killed?

what about a "stop the killing of muslims by kafirs" website? now thats an excellent idea

then we can have petitions to have dumsfeld, blair, sharon and bush brought up on crimes against humanity charges

Mr. EducateMe, how many muslims have been killed by Bush/Blair?

how many euromericans have been killed by al-qaaida? add some of the khaybar towers and such

notice a difference?

[Huja Usman]

whats extremism?


A funny thing is, in Europe if you only say I belive in god they look upon you as somebody dumb, sombody backwards. This is extremism for them.


I tell them in the face, I belive in Allah the rabb of the heavens and earth, I belive in the quran, in jannah and jahanam, In adabul qabr. This is beyond extremism for them.


But infront of Allah there is no extremism. There is only kufr and iman. wallahi we are a lost people, A day have come when people who reject allah teaches us about extremism.

[uWot]

(..."salatal mustaqeem" sp?)...
Qayyim

:D:D:D

the straight prayer?

...shiatan...
Qayyim

hehehehe

u promoting sectarianism?

[AbuSadiq]

whats extremism?


A funny thing is, in Europe if you only say I belive in god they look upon you as somebody dumb, sombody backwards. This is extremism for them.


I tell them in the face, I belive in Allah the rabb of the heavens and earth, I belive in the quran, in jannah and jahanam, In adabul qabr. This is beyond extremism for them.


But infront of Allah there is no extremism. There is only kufr and iman. wallahi we are a lost people, A day have come when people who reject allah teaches us about extremism.

As salaamu alaikum!

This is very true! These people will not and will never accept you as a "good" muslim until you denounce your faith, while wearing the garb of Islam. Anything short of that is extremism:badguy:. And unfortunately we follow them, their academicians, their media propagandis, gleefully without question. As if we forget this sacred verse: Never will the Jews and the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. . ." (2:120)?

Please when will the Muslim, on this polluted earth, open his mouth wide and say NO! to the sinful setup of this unilateral civilisation?

ALLAHUL MUSTA'AAN...! :rubeyes:

Abu Sadiq

[AbuMubarak]

"ÇáÅÓáÇã íÚáæ æáÇ íÚáì Úáíå"

‘Islaam is superior and nothing can supersede it.’ (al-Jaami’ as-Sagheer #3063)


áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå ãÍãÏ ÑÓæá Çááå

áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ Çááå ãÍãÏ ÑÓæá Çááå

[EducateMe]

Thankyou all for your replies. First of all I hope my comments weren't misunderstood. Of course it can never be only the responsbility of the Muslim community to combat extremist fundamentalists, this problem is a problem for all of society. As none-Muslim British citizens we must ask ourselves how we have allowed the Muslim community to become so seperated from the mainstream, have we moved our own values, ideas and customs in response to the newcomers to our society, are we responsible for the disengagment and disolutionment of Muslim youth, what responsbility do we as people have for the policies of our government, etc, etc?? All of these questions are being asked, at least by the ones amongst us with hearts and minds open enough to be honestly critical of our own ideas and misconceptions, mistakes and confusions. What I was getting at is that the Muslim community has a vital part to play in this, who knows the Muslim community better than a Muslim? The reaction of finger pointing you are all experiencing, being singled out for blame and sometimes hatred, is a result of that old hate stirrer, fear.

People fear what they do not understand and sadly a gulf exists between the Muslim and none Muslim people of Britain (not exclusivley I must say, but regretebly in the main..) and many people simply do not understand the difference between Suffi, Shia, and Sunni, Moderate, Extremist.. whatever. All they know is they are scared, scared of people who look, act and think differently to them and who, however remote the possibility, COULD potentially be committed to an ideology which sanctions their murder. I applaud those of you who speak of a Muslims duty to stand against evil, whoever the perpatrator as, to be honest, this was exactly my point. What I was saying also however is that the power of Muslims to fight the evil of other (so called) Muslims is so much greater than that of a none-Muslim. You can visit the Mosque, read the Arabic press, speak to your fellow Muslims, here about other people in your local communities and so on, something it would be hard (without offending an awful lot of people) for myself to attempt to do.

As far as "root out Jihad", i appologise but there you are, I understand too little of Islam to really comment. What I meant was violent radical fundamentalists.

This shouldnt be about us and them, the more we become divided the more fearful all our futures. This isnt about finger pointing, its about all people of good heart moving towards peace, harmony and justice on this earth. I dont care whether your Muslim, Hindu, Jew or Christian that should surley be the highest goal? I think this is a good country which serves its people well and by and large stands for whats right, as much as is possible in this evil world, on a lot of occasions. I think that as British citizens we should be able to find a way to prevent evil in all its forms and preserve a society and a nation to which we all owe a lot.

Hope my point is a little clearer now, and again thankyou for your comments.

[AbuMubarak]

i still say, root out the terrorism of colonialism, imperialism, capitalism and the military industrial complex by the euromericans and their muslim puppets, and you will give the muslims one less reason to fight back

[Haz]

Thankyou all for your replies. First of all I hope my comments weren't misunderstood. Of course it can never be only the responsbility of the Muslim community to combat extremist fundamentalists, this problem is a problem for all of society. As none-Muslim British citizens we must ask ourselves how we have allowed the Muslim community to become so seperated from the mainstream, have we moved our own values, ideas and customs in response to the newcomers to our society, are we responsible for the disengagment and disolutionment of Muslim youth, what responsbility do we as people have for the policies of our government, etc, etc?? All of these questions are being asked, at least by the ones amongst us with hearts and minds open enough to be honestly critical of our own ideas and misconceptions, mistakes and confusions. What I was getting at is that the Muslim community has a vital part to play in this, who knows the Muslim community better than a Muslim? The reaction of finger pointing you are all experiencing, being singled out for blame and sometimes hatred, is a result of that old hate stirrer, fear.

People fear what they do not understand and sadly a gulf exists between the Muslim and none Muslim people of Britain (not exclusivley I must say, but regretebly in the main..) and many people simply do not understand the difference between Suffi, Shia, and Sunni, Moderate, Extremist.. whatever. All they know is they are scared, scared of people who look, act and think differently to them and who, however remote the possibility, COULD potentially be committed to an ideology which sanctions their murder. I applaud those of you who speak of a Muslims duty to stand against evil, whoever the perpatrator as, to be honest, this was exactly my point. What I was saying also however is that the power of Muslims to fight the evil of other (so called) Muslims is so much greater than that of a none-Muslim. You can visit the Mosque, read the Arabic press, speak to your fellow Muslims, here about other people in your local communities and so on, something it would be hard (without offending an awful lot of people) for myself to attempt to do.

As far as "root out Jihad", i appologise but there you are, I understand too little of Islam to really comment. What I meant was violent radical fundamentalists.

This shouldnt be about us and them, the more we become divided the more fearful all our futures. This isnt about finger pointing, its about all people of good heart moving towards peace, harmony and justice on this earth. I dont care whether your Muslim, Hindu, Jew or Christian that should surley be the highest goal? I think this is a good country which serves its people well and by and large stands for whats right, as much as is possible in this evil world, on a lot of occasions. I think that as British citizens we should be able to find a way to prevent evil in all its forms and preserve a society and a nation to which we all owe a lot.

Hope my point is a little clearer now, and again thankyou for your comments.

Muslims haven't seperated from the mainstream British society, and how can we? As a human being its impossible to be seperated from the British society. Muslims have been able to adapt well with the British society taking whatever thats good and leaving the bad but the British society aren't willing to except anything other than their own culture even if its good.

are we responsible for the disengagment and disolutionment of Muslim youth

I dont know why did you come up with such comment, but compared to previous generation of muslims the current generation are practicing Islam more. They see they can gain more by sticking to islam than adopting to certain british values. Again i put forward this question on why cant the main stream British Society accept a way of life other than theirs?

People fear what they do not understand and sadly a gulf exists between the Muslim and none Muslim people of Britain (not exclusivley I must say, but regretebly in the main..) and many people simply do not understand the difference between Suffi, Shia, and Sunni, Moderate, Extremist.. whatever.

The people who follow Islam are called muslims. simple as that. Islam does not recognize these devisions or sects.

What I was saying also however is that the power of Muslims to fight the evil of other (so called) Muslims is so much greater than that of a none-Muslim..

Its a duty of a muslims to stand up (by action, by speech or heart) against injustice and evil. Thats why we protested against Iraq and thats why we were angered about 7/7. What motivates people to engage in Evil acts ? Surely there is know bigger boost than going to invade once country. You cannot irradicate terrorism without eleminating the cause for it. Because the cause came out injustice.

I appreciate that effort you have take to learn about Muslims. InshaAllah i hope many follow the same steps.

[EducateMe]

Again, thanks for the kind words. And on another lighter note I have actually made a tentative start at reading the Quran, although in truth havent got very far as yet.

In a world which is run for the interest of a small clique of super wealthy industrialists and capitalists of course we all face a sickening ammount of injustice, hypocracy and lies. I was actually on the first stop the war march to London myself and speak out on every oppertunity against the muddled, corupt and selfish foreign policy of western governments. What i do believe with a passion however is that war can never solve a problem. I know from what ive read in the past and what i know of Islam that this is not the philosophy of many Muslims, which is fine, when all's said and done if I had been alive in 1939 and seen the horrors of Facism I hope i would have fought to preserve the freedom and lives of innocent people.

I think the current situation is so much more complex however, there really are no black and white moral truths, which side in this war does not have blood and evil on their contiouence?

Without a clear cause, without a deffinate idea of who is the oppressor and who the oppresed i simply dont think armed struggle is the answer. What is, in my opinion however, is for all people in the west to start to shape their societies toward a more open minded and open eyed appreciation of the world, we cant however do this as a divided people. So like any relationship its about give and take. Do none Muslims have a lot more to give than has been so far, deffinatley. No side is however completley in the wrong and surley as a Muslim one must accept that Muslim leaders and others HAVE made mistakes. This is EXACTLY my point, its rather like when your child wont accept responsibilty for his or her wrong doing because of the wrong doing of a sibbling, when each must accept their own share of responsbility. Our two communities may be much the same, always blaming the other for the faults we share in common. I speak out for justice with my piers on as many occasions as I can, my hope is that my Muslim brothers may do the same. As you have said, evil is evil, there can be no distinction.

[rukkus]

yes muslims have the responsibility to weed out the extremists.... i have lots of muslim mates, so have no problem with them, but i live in australia, and we were just threatened.
i see that threat and raise one..... for every terrorist attack in my country im gunna burn down muslim ****.... **** THE EXTREMISTS. I SAY, IF U WANNA BLOW **** UP HERE, GO TO CANBERRA AND HIT OUR GOVERNMENT. WE AS A NATION ARE AGAINST THE BULL**** WAR BROUGHT BY BUSH.... OUR PRIME MINISTER BENDS OVER FOR GEORGE BUSH... THEY R FAGGOTS AND I HATE THEM... I WANT THE WAR TO STOP IN IRAQ. BUT WILL NOT SIT BACK AND LET STUPID ****ERS COME IN TO MY COUNTRY AND START ****.... so i leave it to the islamic community to teach the right way of islam..... not extremist bull****. terrorism begets terrorism..... i will start an army in australia to fight the ****ers, and we will be called U R FARKT - UNITED RESISTANCE FRONT AGAINST RACIST **** TERRORISTS.....


I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE MUSLIM PEOPLE... I HATE RACISM.....

TAKE IT UPON YOURSELVES TO STOP THE ****WITS LIKE OSAMA....

I HAVE READ FROM THE KORAN, AND I DONT SEE ISLAM AS AN EVIL OR IS IT THE "RELIGION OF THE SWORD" as i have been told...

**** BUSH AND THE CHRISTIAN NATION, THEY R TERRORISTS.... WASNT JESUS A PACIFIST??? SO WHY DO THE CHRISTIAN NATION START WARS????

WE DONT NEED A JIHAD, WE NEED ASSASSINATIONS, SHOOT BUSH OR SUFFEN.....

INSHALLAH, WE CAN ALL LIVE TOGETHER AS ONE SOON...
so thats my speal..... PEACE!!!!!!!!!

[AbuMubarak]

your writing is very difficult to read and follow

[Haz]

well thats the aussie style. their bit upset about loosing the ashes.

[rukkus]

the ashes
ignore the drunken rantings
except the point

[Abu Haq]

The answer is NO, the Muslim have a duty to promote the whole truth- physical jihad i.e. combat, Khilafah, Shari'ah, and all.

They have a duty to weed out Shirk, Kufr, Asabiah, Bid'ah, Jahillyah, etc.

[Abu Haq]

Muslims have a duty to blow themselves up.

Thats true as and when it becomes an obligation. :badguy:

Especially sexually frustrated sunni muslims who are in reality closet homos.

Hmm... you're a real sicko you vile bent S-C-U-B bag. :wacko: :vomit:

[kaba erector]

i still say, root out the terrorism of colonialism, imperialism, capitalism and the military industrial complex by the euromericans and their muslim puppets, and you will give the muslims one less reason to fight back

Would that include arab imperialism?

[moonshine]

Muslims have a duty to blow themselves up.

Thats true as and when it becomes an obligation. :badguy:





no they dont have a duty to blow them selves up.....where does it say they have a duty to blow them selves up....explosives were not aavailable in the 7th century, so there is no precedent for this

[moonshine]

. In the words of the late great George Orwell, “all it takes for evil to flourish, if for good men to say nothing”. Any thoughts would be greatly apprecitated.



it was edumnd burke not geotge orwell...my thoughts...get your quotes right