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muawiyah
28-08-02, 04:33 PM
taken from:
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm


What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner


A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.


Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)



The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:


i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."


The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)


For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha's Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response...

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner


Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "...An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah's somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha's age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person - `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires', I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta'bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires' statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha's (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah - Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah - Abu Hishaam - who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

... the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet's "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha's age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage

muawiyah
28-08-02, 04:36 PM
What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage? Posted 8-14-2002 10:48

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http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm

What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner


A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.


Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)



The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:


i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."


The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)


For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha's Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response...

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner


Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "...An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah's somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha's age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person - `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires', I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta'bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires' statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha's (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah - Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah - Abu Hishaam - who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

... the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet's "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha's age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage

muawiyah
28-08-02, 04:38 PM
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm


What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner


A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.


Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)



The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:


i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."


The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)


For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha's Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response...

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner


Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "...An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah's somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha's age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person - `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires', I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta'bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires' statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha's (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah - Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah - Abu Hishaam - who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

... the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet's "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha's age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage

Bilquis
28-08-02, 04:38 PM
AoA brother Muawiyya and Muslimeen,

Na'am I've read the same too in an article which a sister gave me. Jkk akhi.

Wassalamu alaikum.


Bilquis

muawiyah
28-08-02, 04:41 PM
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm



What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner


A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.


Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)



The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:


i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."


The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)


For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha's Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response...

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner


Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "...An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah's somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha's age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person - `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires', I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta'bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires' statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha's (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah - Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah - Abu Hishaam - who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

... the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet's "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha's age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage

muawiyah
28-08-02, 04:45 PM
taken from:
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm



What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)
Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)
According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.
According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.
According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.
According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.
Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.
According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".
According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.


These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards

The Learner


A Response to "What was Ayesha's Age..."

Thanks for the email. But I find it woefully lacking in actual quotes. The response is filled with "so and so said such and such". That doesn't cut it. In my paper, that deals with Aisha and her age, I not only say who says what, but I provide the entire quote. You need to do the same. And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper. Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions. Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9. Don't forget, Islamic custom says men can marry girls after their first menstruation. Girls today have them as young as age 9. If you could find that actual quotes from the author's your scholar is quoting from, that would be beneficial. Otherwise, his arugement is only hot air; it lacks real substance.


Reply

My answer was for your satisfaction, not for a debate, and I therefore avoided all the actual quotes. I am extremely sorry for that.

In any case, I provide below my references as well as my answers to the "comments" of your Christian friend:

The First Argument

My first argument was:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

I am sure your Christian friend can see that this argument does not need any reference. It is a simple fact.

The Second Argument

My second argument was:

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event [from him], even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.

Again, the argument that all those who heard this narrative from Hisham ibn `urwah were Iraqis, is a simple statement of fact. This can be checked in the biographical sketches of these narrators in any of the books written on the narrators.

The Third Argument

My third argument was:

Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)



The actual statements, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Yaqub ibn Shaibah says: He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

i.e. "I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol 11, pg 50)

The Fourth Argument

My fourth argument was:

Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the [life sketches of the] narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)

The actual statement, its translation and its complete references is given below:

i.e. "when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Arabic, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol 4, pg 301)

The Fifth Argument

My fifth argument was:

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

The actual statements referred to in the above paragraph, their translations and their complete references are given below:

i.e. "Ayesha (ra) said: I was a young girl, when verse 46 of Surah Al-Qamar, [the 54th chapter of the Qur'an], was revealed. (Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Arabic, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The Sixth Argument

My sixth argument was:

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey, says:


i.e. "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Arabic, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal.

i.e. "Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim (ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hinderance in their movement]."

As far as the fact that children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to particpate in the battle of `uhud, it is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b, Arabic. i.e. "Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."


The Seventh Argument

My seventh argument was:

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

The relevant references required in this argument are provided below:

For the Difference of Ayesha's (ra) and Asma's (ra) Age
According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

i.e. Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol 2, Pg 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)

According to Ibn Kathir:
i.e. "she [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 371, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)


For Asma's (ra) Age at Her Death in 73 AH
According to Ibn Kathir:

i.e. "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, five days later she herself died, according to other narratives her death was not five but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol 8, Pg 372, Arabic, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

i.e. "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)

The Eighth Argument

My eighth argument was:

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

The original statement in Tabari, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. "All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari, Vol 4, Pg 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)

The Ninth Argument

My ninth argument was:

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before `umar ibn al-Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.

According to Ibn Hisham, Ayesha (ra) was the 20th or the 21st person to enter into the folds of Islam (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 227 - 234, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh) While `umar ibn al-khattab was preceded by forty individuals (Al-Sirah al-Nabawiyyah, Ibn Hisham, Vol 1, Pg 295, Arabic, Maktabah al-Riyadh al-hadithah, Al-Riyadh).

The Tenth Argument

My tenth argument was:

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

Unfortunately, I do not have the primary reference to this argument at the moment. The secondary reference for this argument is: Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat, Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi, Urdu, Pg 38, Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

The Eleventh Argument

My eleventh argument was:

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

The complete reference for this reporting of Ahmad ibn Hanbal is: Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol 6, Pg 210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.

The Twelfth Argument

My twelfth argument was:

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

Ibn Hajar's original statement, its translation and reference follows:
i.e. Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra). (Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol 4, Pg 377, Arabic, Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)

These are all the references for the material I provided in my initial response.

Your Christian friend, besides asking for these references has also briefly commented on my reply, he writes:

And, the man which the paper was quoting from refers to Tabari. Well, Tabari also says Aisha was 9... did your "learned" one miss that? If you need the reference, check my paper.

Further, I also quote from Bukhari, and there are many quotes concerning Aisha's age in that. Bukhari is the most highly respected hadith, so, you're going to have to do better then conjecture and assumptions.

Finally, there is Abu Dawud's quote as well.... all exclusively saying Aisha was 9.

It seems that your friend has missed out on my point on Hisham ibn `urwah. He seems to be unaware of the fact that each one of his quoted statement, whether it is from Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim or Abu Dawud, is either narrated by Hisham ibn `urwah or is reported to the respective author by or through an Iraqi. Not even a single narrative is free from either of the two problems.

I have quoted Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim to show that even their own information contradicts with the narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Thus, when the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age is not reliable and when there is information in the same books that contradicts the narrative of Ayesha's age, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted (when there are adequate grounds to reject it) and other (contradictory) information is rejected (when there is no ground to reject it).

Regards,

The Learner

*The answer to this question is primarily based on the research by Habib ur Rahman Kandhalwi (urdu) as presented in his booklet, "Tehqiq e umar e Siddiqah e Ka'inat", Anjuman Uswa e hasanah, Karachi, Pakistan

More on Ayesha's Age

I would like to see your response to the following which is relevant to Aisha's age question of your site.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5603/aishah.html

An Intermediate Response...

I have read the referred article. I really do not think that it needs any reply from my side, as it relies on the very sources that I have presented my reservations upon. In case it has raised any questions in your mind, I shall be glad to answer them. But without any specific questions I really don't see any reason why I should write any thing else on the issue.

regards

The Learner


Clarification

You state in your article that the hadith of Aisha's age is narrated by only one narrator, Hisham ibn `urwah, after he moved to Iraq at the age of 71.

But according to Robert Squires:

"... two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Urwa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old".

I would like to see some clarification on this point.

Thanks.

Reply

I would first of all like to make a small (part) correction to the the first point in my article. I had written:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

In fact, although it is Hisham ibn `Urwah who is reporting most of these narratives, but it is not him, but his father `Urwah who is common in all these narratives. It must be remembered that when I say that all these narratives have been reported through `Urwah, it means that it is only the narratives of `Urwah in which the chain of narrators are acceptably strong. Besides the narratives of `Urwah, there do exist five other chains of narrators reporting the same thing, but those chains include people who have either been strongly or lightly criticised by the some of the scholars and compilers of the lives of the reporters of Hadith.

Even though this correction of names from Hisham ibn `Urwah to his father, `Urwah does not have much of an effect on my arguments, as my statement: "...An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three" holds good in both the cases. Other facts that do not change include that there is not a single tradition that comes with an all-Medinan chain of narrators, where Ayesha spent most of her life. There is hardly (if at all) any exception to the fact that all the chains of this report include one or more Iraqi or one or more Basri in them. This makes the credibility of the reports ascribed to `Urwah's somewhat questionable too.

Now, let us take a look at the article you have referred to. Besides the point that you have raised, I wish to present my reservations on one more point of this article, that is giving the narratives describing Ayesha's age the status of Sunnah. Let us first take up the point you have raised.

I had stated previously and have reiterated here that all the dependable narratives of this report come through one person - `urwah. Mr. Robert Squires, on the other hand states:

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

I think there is a spelling error in this statement of Mr. Squires. It seems that the name of the third narrator should be `Urwah or `Urwa rather than `Ursa. I request Mr. Squires to correct me if I am wrong. Another thing that needs to be clarified is that Abu Hishaam and `Urwah are the same person. `Urwah, because of his son Hishaam, was also called Abu Hishaam, according to the Arab tradition.

In response to your question on the apparent contradiction in my statement when compared with that of Mr. Squires', I would only like to say that it is just a case of a simple misunderstanding. This misunderstanding can easily be removed by a little more understanding of the two statements.

When Mr. Squires states that these reports come to us from different sources, he is really considering only the first person (sahabi or ta'bi`y) in the chain of narrators of these reports. On the other hand, when I say that these reports are only (or mostly) reported by one narrator only, it means that even though the first person in the chain of these reports changes there is common narrator in all these reports. Just to clarify, take the example of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari. According to Mr Squires: "Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa [`Urwa or `Urwah??] (7:88)." Now if you consider Mr. Squires' statement, he is only referring to the first person in the chain of narrators in his statement. The statement is not wrong or misquoted. But on the other hand, if you take a look at the chain of narrators of the four reportings of Sahih Bukhari, you shall see that in the first two cases, Ayesha's (ra) statement has been quoted by none other than `Urwah - Abu Hishaam (the father of Hishaam). In the later two cases, it is (Mr. Squires is requested to correct me if I am mistaken) `Urwah - Abu Hishaam - who is being referred to by Mr. Squires.

I think the above explanation should suffice as clarification that you desired.

Mr. Squires has also implied in his referred article that these narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age are a part of the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). He states:

At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that.

Mr. Squires has also referred to an article by Mr. Suhaib Hasan (http://home.att.net/~r-squires/sunnah.htm) in which Mr. Hasan has defined Sunnah as:

... the Sunnah includes the sayings of the Prophet, peace be upon him, known commonly as hadiths (i.e. sayings), his practices, and actions which gained his approval.

In my view, the above statement, though commonly accepted by Muslims, does not accurately describe Sunnah. But for the purpose of this discussion, let us take this to be an accurate explanation of Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh). But even then, the narratives describing Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage do not fall under the scope of Sunnah. Obviously, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage is not a part of "the sayings of the Prophet, (peace be upon him)", it cannot be termed as the Prophet's "practices" and neither can it be included in the "actions which gained his approval". The narrative of Ayesha's age is just a narrative of a historical event. Just because it has been reported by Bukhari and Muslim, does not change its status from being a narrative of a historical event to a Sunnah. Because of this fact, this narrative should be seen in the light of all other narratives of historical events which have been reported by Bukhari, Muslim and other historians of Islam. This is exactly what I have tried to do in my article from point number 5 to 12.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, any one who wants to prove that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage has the responsibility of telling others why is he rejecting all the other historical narratives and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage

Noor
28-08-02, 05:42 PM
It was a excellent well presented argument.

Mashallah!

sajid
28-08-02, 06:12 PM
Salams

yup thanks for that i was aware of the age...but i dont understand where the age of "9" came from.....somoene obviously misintrepreted it!

ws
sajid

Rafik
28-08-02, 06:29 PM
nt

AbuMubarak
28-08-02, 06:34 PM
Umm Al-Mumineen Aisha Bint Abu Bakr RA
AISHA bint Abi Bakr

Gradually the Muslims who remained in Mecca left the city and traveled to Medina to join their beloved Prophet, and amongst them was a little girl called 'A'isha, the daughter of Abu Bakr. Soon after arriving in Medina, 'A'isha, who was now nine years old, as married to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), who was now fifty-four years old. It was at this point that she left her family's household and joined that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). 'A'isha later reported that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had told her that Jibril came to him and showed him a picture of her on a piece of green silk and said, "She is your wife in this world and in the next world." About her wedding, she related that shortly before she was to leave her parents' house, she slipped out into the courtyard to play with a friend. "I was playing on a seesaw and my long streaming hair became disheveled," she said. "They came and took me from my play and made me ready." They dressed her in a wedding dress made from fine red striped cloth from Bahrain and then her mother took her to the newly built house where some women of the Ansar were waiting outside the door. They greeted her with the words, "For good and for happiness, may all be well." Then, in the presence of the smiling Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a bowl of milk was brought. The Prophet drank from it himself and then offered it to 'A'isha. She shyly declined it, but when he insisted she drink as well and then offered the bowl to her sister Asma' who was sitting beside her. The others who were present also drank from it, and that was all there was to the simple and solemn occasion of their wedding.
Her marriage to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not change 'A'isha's playful ways, and her young friends continued to regularly come to visit her in her own room. "I would be playing with my dolls," she once said, 'with the girls who were my friends, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would come in and they would slip out of the house and he would go out after them and bring them back, for he was pleased for my sake to have them there." Sometimes he would say, "Stay, where you are," before they had time to leave, and would also join in their games. "One day," 'A'isha said, "the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came in when I was playing with my dolls and said, "'A'isha, whatever game is this?' 'It is Solomon's horses,' I replied, and he laughed." On another occasion, during the days of the Id al Adha, two young girls were with 'A'isha in her room, singing a song about the famous battle of Bu'ath and beating a tambourine in time. "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) came in," said 'A'isha, 'and lay down with his face turned away. Then Abu Bakr came, and scolded me, saying, 'What is this musical instrument of Shaytan doing in the house of the Messenger of Allah?' The Messenger of Allah turned towards him and said, 'Leave them alone, for these are the days of the 'Id.'"
After a while, 'A'isha asked the girls to leave, and the Prophet asked 'A'isha whether she would like to watch the Abyssinians who were giving a fighting display with their weapons in the mosque and she said yes. "By Allah," said 'A'isha, "I remember the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) standing at the door of my room, screening me with his cloak, so that I could see the sport of the Abyssinians as they played with their spears in the mosque of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He kept standing for my sake until I had enough and then I went back in, so you can well imagine how a young girl enjoyed watching this display."
Some might have viewed the marriage of Muhammad and 'A'isha as an exceptional marriage, but then the two partners were exceptional people. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the last of the Prophets and the best of creation; and 'A'isha was a very intelligent and observant young girl with a very good memory. 'A'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) spent the next nine years of her life with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and she grew into womanhood, she remembered all that she saw and heard with great clarity, for to be the wife of the Prophet was even more than extraordinary. So much happened around him - the Quran continued to be revealed, ayat by ayat, and people's hearts were constantly being turned over and transformed, including hers and she was a witness of so much of all that took place. It is not surprising, therefore, that a great deal of the knowledge that we still have today, about how our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) lived and behaved, was first remembered and then taught to others by 'A'isha. It is thanks to this exceptional marriage, between a man nearing the end of his life and a woman still near the beginning of hers, that we know so much about the both of them, and this is what makes it so much easier for those who wish to follow in their footsteps to try and follow their example.
Whereas Khadijah was already a wise and mature woman when she married the Prophet Muhammad, 'A'isha was a spirited young girl who still had a great deal to learn when she married the Prophet, (may Allah be pleased with her, and peace be upon him) she was very quick to learn, however, for she had a clear heart, and a quick mind and an accurate memory. She was not afraid to talk back in order to find out the truth or make it known, and whenever she beat someone else in argument, the Prophet would smile and say, "She is the daughter of Abu Bakr!" Musa ibn Talha once said, "I have not seen anyone more eloquent than 'A'isha." 'A'isha (may Allah be pleased with her) became so wise that one of her contemporaries used to say that if the knowledge of 'A'isha were placed on one side of the scales that of all other women on the other, 'A'isha 's side would outweigh the other. She used to sit with the other women and pass on the knowledge that she had received from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and long after he had died, and as long as she lived, she was a source of knowledge and wisdom for both women and men. Abu Musa once said, "Whenever a report appeared doubtful to us, the Companions of the Prophet, and we asked 'A'isha about it, we always learned something from her about it."
On one occasion, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said to her, "O 'A'isha, here is Jibril giving you greetings of peace." "And on him be peace." She said, 'and the mercy of Allah." When she was telling Abu Salama about this, she added, "He (meaning the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ) sees what I do not see." As well as being extremely intelligent, 'A'isha became a very graceful young woman. When she first came to live in the Prophet's household as a young girl, a strong and lasting friendship grew up between her and Sawda, and Sawda took care of her along with the rest of the household. When 'A'isha grew up, Sawda, who was by then an old woman, gave up her share of the Prophet's time in favor of 'A'isha and was content to manage his household and be Umm al Mumineen - 'The Mother of the Believers' - a title of respect that was given to all of the wives of the Prophet, (may Allah be pleased with them), which confirmed what the Quran clearly states that no man could marry any of them after they had been married to the Prophet for:
The Prophet is closer to the believers than their ownselves, and his wives are as their mothers. (Qur'an: 33:6)
O you wives of the Prophet, if any of you is openly indecent, the punishment for her will be doubled - and that is easy for Allah. And whoever of you submits to Allah and His Messenger has right action, We shall give her a reward twice over and We have prepared a generous provision for her. O you wives of the Prophet, you are not like any other women. If you are fearful of Allah then do not be soft in yspeech, lest someone whose heart is sick is attracted to you, but speak words that are wise. And stay quietly in your houses, do not make a dazzling display like that of the time of ignorance before and establish prayer and pay the Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Surely Allah wishes to remove impurity far from you, O People of the House, and to purify you completely. And remember that ayahs of Allah that are recited in your houses and the wisdom. Surely Allah is Alpervading, All Aware. (Quran 33:30-34)
It is sometimes difficult to picture what life must have been like for the wives and the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) because the light that emanated from him and through them was so unique. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had no shadow because he was light and this light illuminated the hearts and minds and understanding of his followers, giving them insight without blinding them. The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was truly a mercy to all the worlds, and no one with a clean heart could possibly forget this, least of all the Prophet himself.
O Prophet, surely We have sent you as a witness and as a bringer of good news and a warner; and one who calls the people to Allah by His permission, and as a shining light. (Quran 33:45-46)
It is said that people were awed by the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) when they were in his presence, and that they sat and listened to his words with their eyes lowered, as if they had birds perched on their heads, and that they would do anything for him, so great was their love for him. It was because of the perfection of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that everyone was commanded to ask blessings on him:
Allah and His angels pray blessings on the Prophet; O you who believe! Pray blessings of him and ask for peace for him. (Quran 33:56)
It was because of the Prophet Muhammad's unique station with Allah that his wives and his Companions were expected by Allah to behave with such respect and courtesy towards the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him); and that his wives could not possibly marry anyone else after having been married to him:
When you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a screen. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. It is not for you to cause injury to the Messenger of Allah, or ever marry his wives after him. To do that would be something dreadful in the sight of Allah. (Quran 33:53)
During the nine years that 'A'isha was married to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) she witnessed many of the great events that shaped the destiny of the first Muslim community of Madina al Munawarra: It was during the course of their marriage that she direction of the qibla was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca, thereby more clearly distinguishing the Muslims from the Jews and the Christians, and it was during the course of their marriage that she must have listened to many of the Jews and the Christians an the idol worshippers who came not to listen to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) but to argue with him, in the hope that they could find a plausible excuse to justify their rejection of him. It was through exchange such as these that 'A'isha learned to distinguish what was true from what was false. As the prophetic guidance continued to be revealed through the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), 'A'isha's way of life - along with that of all the Muslims - was gradually reshaped and refined: It was during the course of their marriage that drinking alcohol was finally forbidden, that it was made clear what food was halal and what food was haram, that it became necessary for women to wear the hijab in public and when praying, that the guidance as to how to fast was revealed, that paying the Zakat became obligatory on all Muslims, and that all rites of the hajj were purified and clarified.
In fact every aspect of life, from birth to death and everything that happens in between, was illuminated by the way in which the Prophet behaved - and it was this way of behavior, the Sunna, that 'A'isha helped to preserve and protect, not only by embodying it herself, but also by teaching it to others. 'A'isha was once asked to describe the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and she replied that he was 'the Quran walking', meaning that his behavior was the Quran translated into action. She did all that she could to do likewise. Thus she not only knew and embodied the Sunna, but also she memorized the Quran by heart and understood it. It was during the course of their marriage that, amongst others, the battles of Badr, and Uhud, and Al-Khandaq (the Ditch) were fought. These were the three major battles against the Quraish, that shifted the balance of power out of the hands of the kafirun and into the hands of the Muslims. Although she was still very young, 'A'isha participated in them all, bringing water for the Muslims warriors, and helping to look after the wounded. She witnessed life, and she witnessed death - both in the way of Allah and in the way of the kafirun - and she understood both. Indeed one of the meanings of her name, 'A'isha', is 'life'.
It was during the course of their marriage that the Jews plotted and tried to kill the Prophet on more than one occasion, without success, and were punished for this. First the Banu Qayunqa and then the Banu Nadir were expelled from Medina; and then Banu Qurayza - who had broken their agreement with the Muslims during the battle of al-Khandaq and conspired to exterminate all of them - were subjected to the punishment that was decided by the man whom they themselves had chosen to judge their actions, Sa'id ibn Mu'adh. In accordance with the commands contained in their own book, the Torah, all the men were killed - with the exception of four who accepted Islam and all the women and children were taken as slaves. It was after this event that another tribe, the Banu al Mustaliq began to prepare to fight the Muslims, and accordingly the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) led an army against them. Often when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) went to war, he took one of his wives with him. He did not choose anyone in particular, but simply drew lots and took the wife whose name came out. When he went to fight the Banu al-Mustaliq, the lot fell to 'A'isha, and she it was who traveled with him.
'A'isha who was now thirteen years old, was small, slim, and graceful, so that it was difficult for the men who carried her litter to know for certain whether or not she was actually inside it when they lifted it up. On the way back to Medina, after the Banu al Mustaliq had been subdued, the Muslim army stopped for a rest, but then the Prophet unexpectedly ordered the army to continue the march back. Unknown to everyone else, 'A'isha had stepped out of her litter for a few minutes and had left the camp, seeking some privacy. On her way back she had noticed that her onyx necklace was missing and so she retraced her steps to try and find it. When she had at last found it finally returned to the camp, it was to find that everyone had gone. The men who had been carrying her litter had thought she was still in it, and had picked it up, strapped it to the camel and marched on. 'A'isha, who trusted completely in Allah, sat down, and waited, hoping that someone would notice her absence and come back for her. Fortunately she did not have long to wait, for a young Muslim man named Safwan ibn al-Mu'attal, who had fallen behind the army after taking a rest, reached the camp during the night and found her lying fast asleep. Safwan immediately recognizing her, because he had seen her in the early days before Allah had commanded Muslim women to wear the hijab.
"Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un!" - "Surely we come from Allah and surely to Him we return!" he exclaimed in surprise, waking 'A'isha up with the loudness of his voice. He did not say anything else, and a'A'isha put the scarf that had fallen off her head while she was asleep back on, Safwan made his camel kneel down close to her so that she could climb up on to it; and then, leading the camel with his hand, he set off on foot after the army, hoping that they would soon catch up with it which they eventually did later the next morning, since the army had halted for a rest during the hottest part of the day. Unfortunately, some hypocrites who had seen Safwan and 'A'isha arrive alone together began to gossip and spread slanderous lies about them. Eventually the story reached the Prophet himself (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and by then the whole community was talking about what might or might now have happened before the two young Muslims. Naturally the muminun were certain that noting bad had happened, but the munafiqun thought otherwise and were not afraid to insinuate that was the case.
As a result of all this gossip, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and his household came under a great strain, and in fact 'A'isha herself fell ill, not because she was aware of what the hypocrites were saying about her, but because the Prophet did not seem to care for her as much as he had done before the campaign against the Banu al Mustaliq. Finally, someone told her what some people were saying. This made 'A'isha even more ill, so with the Prophet's permission, she went to stay at the house of her parents. When she arrived, she said to her mother, Umm Ruman, "Mother! What are the people saying?" She replied "O my daughter! Do not make too much of the business. By Allah, seldom has there been a woman of beauty with a husband who loves her and who has co wives but that people say a lot against her." A'isha said, "Glory be to Allah! The people have really been saying this?" 'A'isha said, "I have spent the entire night until morning unable to stop weeping and could not sleep at all. Morning found me still weeping." In the meantime, when Safwan was confronted with the allegations that had been made, he replied, "Glory be to Allah! By Allah, I have never removed the veil of any woman!" Since there had been no revelation to clarify the matter, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) asked Barira, who was 'A'isha 's maid servant, if she had seen anything in 'A'isha' s behavior that was at all doubtful. "By Him who sent you with the truth," she replied, "I have not seen nothing wrong with her, other than that she is a young girl and sometimes she falls asleep while she is kneading the dough and a lamb comes along and eats it!" Some of the companions who were present scolded Barira and told her to come to the point. "Glory be to Allah!" she replied. "I know as much about her as a jeweler knows about a piece of pure gold!"
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also asked Zaynab bint Jahsh for her opinion, since he valued it highly. Although she and A'isha were frequently at odds with one another and Zaynab's sister Hamna, was the one of those who were actively gossiping and spreading the rumor, she replied without hesitation, "O Messenger of Allah," she said, "I will not repeat anything that I have not heard with my own ears and seen with my own eyes. By Allah, I find nothing in her but goodness."
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) then tried to vindicate A'isha's honor by calling everyone to the mosque and publicly defending her reputation, but the hypocrites who had started the trouble in the first place only made matter worse, so that arguments broke out all over the mosque, and people had almost come to blows over the matter before the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) calmed them down and silenced them.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) then came to Abu Bakr's house, where A'isha had been crying her heart out, and in the presence of her parents said the shahada, and then continued, "If you are innocent, then Allah Himself will protect your honor, and if by accident there has been a lapse on your part, then seek the forgiveness of Allah and He will pardon you, for when a slave admits a fault and turns to Him in repentance, then Allah also turns and accepts that repentance."
A'isha said, "When the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) finished what he was saying, my tears stopped so that I was not aware of a single tear. I said to my father, 'Answer the Messenger of Allah for me regarding what he has said.' He said, 'By Allah, I do not know what to say to the Messenger of Allah,' I said to my mother, 'Answer the Messenger of Allah for me regarding what he has said.' She said, 'By Allah, I do not know what to say to the Messenger of Allah.'"
A'isha said, "I am a young girl who does not yet recite much of the Qur'an. By Allah, I know that you have heard this story that people are saying and it has become fixed in yourself and you have believed it. If I were to say to you that I am innocent, you would not believe me. If I were to confess to something to you and Allah knows that I am innocent you would believe me. By Allah, I can only say what the father of Yusuf said, Patience is beautiful, and Allah is my protection against what you describe. (Quran 12:18)" Then I turned over on my bed, Allah knowing that I was innocent and hoping that Allah would proclaim me innocent. However, by Allah, I did not think that any relation would be sent down regarding me. I thought too little of myself that something would be said in the Qur'an regarding me, however I hoped that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) would have a dream in which Allah would exonerate me. She had hardly finished speaking when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) received a direct revelation of some more ayahs of the Qur'an, and when it was over, he smiled and said, "Do not worry, 'A'isha, for Allah has revealed proof of your innocence."
A'isha's mother, who had been standing next to her, said, "Get up and thank him."
"By Allah," exclaimed A'isha, whose title, 'Siddiqa', means 'the truthful one', "I will not thank him and praise him but rather Allah Who has given the revelation that has protected my honor!" Then the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) went to the mosque and recited what had just been sent down:
Surely those who fabricate the lie are a group from among you. Do not think it is bad thing for you; no it is good for you. Every man will receive what he has earned for this sin, and whoever had the greater part in it will have a great punishment. Why did the men and women believers, when they heard it, not think good in their selves and say: 'This is clearly a lie?' Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they did not produce witnesses, they are certainly liars in the sight of Allah. If it were not for the grace of Allah, and His mercy on you in this world and in the next world, an awful doom would have overtaken you for what you repeated. Since you received it with your tongues, and repeated what you did not know anything about with your mouths, you thought it was a trifle, but in the sight of Allah it is serious. Why, when you heard it, did you not say: 'It is not for us to repeat this, Glory be to You (O Allah), this is a serious rumor.' Allah warns you to never repeat anything like this again, if you are indeed believers and Allah makes the signs clear to you; and Allah is Knowing, Wise. Surely those who love to spread around slander about those who believe will have a painful punishment in this world and in the next world; and Allah knows and you do not know. (Quran 24:11-19).
A'isha forgave those who had let themselves be caught in the slander and in later years would not hear anything bad said about them. The fact that A'isha' s honor and reputation had been protected by a revelation from Allah could not be ignored by anyone, and from then on everyone was more aware of her high station with Allah. It was also during the course of A'isha's marriage with the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) that the Muslim commexpanded so rapidly that Mecca was eventually conquered by the Muslim army, and preparations were made for the first of the many battles that were successfully fought against the Greeks and the Persians after the letters from Muhammad inviting Heraclius and Choroes to embrace Islam and worship Allah alone had been contemptuously ignored.
This extraordinary expansion - even the idea of which would, at the time of Khadijah' s death (may Allah be pleased with her) have seemed like a wild dream was heralded, in 6 AH, by the treaty of Hudaybiyya, by virtue of which peace was declared between the Quraish and the Muslims for ten years, and the right of the Muslims to enter Mecca and do 'umra unharmed was recognized by the Quraish.
Although the Muslims had to wait for a year before they could do umra, that year was not long in passing, and in the interval the Jews of Khaybar, who like the other Jews around Madina had attempted to destroy the Muslim community by breaking their peace agreement with the Muslims and supporting the idol worshippers were fought and defeated. After the Jews of Khaybar had been defeated, a Jewess managed to serve the Prophet some poisoned meat, which itself informed him that it had been poisoned, so that he only had a small taste of it. Even though one of his companions who had already eaten some of the meat subsequently died, the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) forgave the Jewess and let her go free.
The Jews of Khaybar were permitted to stay on their land provided that they paid a yearly tribute to the Muslims. As a result, some of the Muslims began to grow more wealthy than they had been in the past. Indeed on one occasion, the Prophet's wives, led by 'A'isha and Hafsa, asked him for some money that he did not have for there was never one night that he lay down to sleep with any money in his possession. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was distressed by this not because he did not have the money to give to them, but rather because it was this that apparently they desired.
At this time, both Abu Bakr and Umar visited him and they found the Messenger of Allah seated, surrounded by his wives who were all silent. Abu Bakr said to himself, "By Allah, I will say something to cheer up the Messenger of Allah!' So he said, "Messenger of Allah, if I were to see the daughter of Kharija asking me for money, I would strike her on the neck!" The Messenger of Allah smiled and said, 'These ones you see around me have asked me for money." SO Abu Bakr went to grab A'isha and Umar went to grab Hafsa, both exclaiming, "DO you ask the Messenger of Allah for something he does not have!" The women said, "By Allah, we would never ask the Messenger of Allah for something he does not have!"
This was not the only marital problem which he experienced at this time. There was a great deal of rivalry between some of the wives and also Hafsa had told A'isha something which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had told her not to disclose because it was something which would increase the friction between the wives. Some sources say that he had told her that Abu Bakr and Umar would rule after him. In any case, he stayed away from them for a whole month, during which many of his Companions began to think either that he was going to divorce them or that he had already done so.
IT is related by Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that he went to visit the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who was staying alone in a small upper room, in order to find out what was happening. First of all he visited his daughter Hafsa, who was weeping, and asked her if the Prophet had divorced his wives. "I don't know," she sobbed. Then he went and asked to see the Prophet. After he had been given permission to enter, Umar climbed up the ladder and into the small room: "I visited Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and he was lying on a mat. I saw down and he drew up his lower garment over him. He had nothing else on, and the mat had left its marks on his sides. I looked around at what stores Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had, and saw only a handful of barley equal to one sa' and an equal amount of mimosa leaves in the corner of the room and tanned leather bag handing nearby, and I as moved to tears. HE said, 'Ibn al Khattab, what is making you cry?' I replied, 'O Messenger of Allah, how can I not cry? This mat has left marks on your sides and I can only see what I have seen of your stores. Caesar and Chosroes are leading their lives of plenty, while you are the Messenger of Allah, His Chosen One, and look what you have!' 'Ibn al Khattab,' he answered, 'isn't it enough for you that for us there is the next world, and for them there is this world?' 'Yes,' I said. Then I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, what has happened with your wives? If you have divorced them, then truly Allah is with you, and His angels, Jibril and Mika'il, and Abu Bakr and I and the believers are with you.' And seldom have I talked like that and hoped that Allah would testify to the words that I uttered. And so it happened that the ayahs of choice were revealed:
If you both turn to Allah in repentance, then that is what your hearts desire; and if you help each other against him then surely Allah Himself is his protector, and Jibril, and the righteous from among the believers, and as well as that, the angels will help him. It maybe, if he divorces you, that his Lord will give him wives who are better than you, who submit, who believe, who are devout, who are repentant, who worship, who fast, whether they have been previously married or are virgins. (Quran 66:4-5)
In fact the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) never divorced any of his wives, and as we grow more aware about how they lived, may Allah be pleased with all of them, it is clear that they possessed all of the qualities of the women described in the last ayat. Perhaps this ayat served as a reminder to them, a reminder that they would remember for the rest of their days which for most of them lasted long after the Prophet's (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) death.
Returning to Sayyiduna Umar's account of his visit to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) during the month of separation from his wives, Umar then asked, "O Messenger of Allah, have you divorced them?" and he replied, "No." So after talking for a while longer and how in Mecca the men tended to dominate the women, whereas in Medina the women tended to dominate the men, which is what the womenfolk from Mecca had learned to do after they had made hijrah to Medina - Umar climbed down and stood at the door of the mosque and called out at the top of his voice: "The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has not divorced his wives!" After the month was up, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) first went to A'isha's room. She was delighted to see him, but grew more serious when he said that some ayahs had been revealed to him which required him to put two options before her. "Do not make a hasty decision," he said, "and consult your parents first." He then recited these verses:
O Prophet, say to your wives: 'If you desire the life of this world and its adornments, then come, and I will make you content, and I will release you with a fair release. But if you desire Allah and His Messenger and the abode of the next world, then truly Allah has prepared an immense reward for those of you who do good.' (Quran 33:28-29)
"Is there any need to consult my parents?" replied A'isha. "Indeed I desire Allah and His Messenger and the abode of the next world." And her response was followed by all of his other wives. A'isha remained true to her word both during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and afterwards. Once, when the Muslims were favored with great wealth, she as given a gift of one hundred thousand Dhirhams. She was fasting when she received the money, and distall of it to the poor and needy, even though she had no provisions in her house. Shortly after that, her maid servant said to her, "Couldn't you have brought a dirham's worth of meat with which to break your fast?" "If I had thought of it," she replied, "I would have done so!"
After a year had passed following the treaty of Hudaybiyya, the Muslims traveled to Mecca and they were able to complete all the rites of the umra, doing everything as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did it. In accordance with the terms of the treaty, the Muslims left after three days, when their umra had been completed. Not long after this, the Prophet sent an army of three thousand Muslims northwards to the borders of the Byzantine territories in what is now Palestine to chastise the tribes there for killing the messengers whom he had sent to call them to Islam. The tribes called on the Emperor Herclius for support, and when the Muslim army arrived at Muta, they found themselves facing an army of two thousand men. Many of the Muslims died as shahids on the day of the battle, but thanks to the tactics of Khalid bin Walid, the Greeks withdrew the next day, and so the Muslims were able to return to Medina relatively unscathed. When the news of the battle of Muta finally reached Mecca, the Quraish mistakenly believed that the Muslims had been thoroughly defeated by the Greeks and decided to renew their opposition to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). In doing so, they deliberately broke their treaty that they had made at Hudaybiiya, by allowing their allies to attack and kill some of the allies of the Muslims who lived near Mecca.
Accordingly the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) marched on Mecca at the head of an army of ten thousand Muslims. Despite everyone's fears, he conquered it with hardly a drop of blood being spilled. As always, the mercy and forgiveness that he displayed towards those who had relentlessly opposed him for so many years changed people's hearts, and many of the people of Mecca now embraced Islam as a result. Having pardoned all of the Quraish, with the exception of four men who had all committed murder for personal reasons, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) smashed all the idols and destroyed all the paintings that had been placed inside the Ka'ba by the idol-worshippers. The sanctity of the sanctuary of Mecca had been restored, and at long last the Muslims were free to come and go in Mecca as they pleased.
In the midst of the peace and rejoicing, however, news came that the tribes of Hawazin and Thaqif were preparing to attack the Muslims. The Muslim army that had conquered Mecca, swelled to twelve thousand by some of the men from the Quraish who had just embraced Islam, marched to a place called Hunayn. For the first time in their experience, the Muslims actually outnumbered the enemy, of whom there were only about four thousand. This nearly proved to be the Muslims' undoing, for many of them felt secure because of their large numbers rather than because of the reliance on Allah. When the enemy suddenly attacked at dawn, showering down arrows from the hills, the Muslims were taken by surprise and many began to flee. A small group stood firm with the Prophet, one of whom was Umm Sulaym bint Milhan, the wife of Abu Talha. Although she was pregnant at the time, she had armed herself with a dagger to use against the kafirun.
Fortunately the strong Muslims rallied round the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and although there were only six hundred of them, their concerted effort, fighting valiantly in the way of Allah, turned the tide of the battle until those who had turned away in the initial panic and confusion had returned and the battle was won. After the battle of Hunayn, the only continued resistance to the Muslims was from the north and north-east, from the Byzantine and Persian Empires. Having heard that the Greeks were preparing a huge army of thirty thousand men and marched out in the heat of the late summer to do battle with them. After a long, hard, hot march, the Muslim army reached Tabuk, and here they learned that the Greeks had retreated back to their own territory. Accordingly, having made peace treaties with all the border tribes, the Muslims returned to Medina, in time for many of them to go on the pilgrimage to Mecca. Those who had made weak excuses in order to avoid going on the expedition to Tabuk now felt great shame and regret.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself did not go on the pilgrimage this year, for people were coming to Medina from all over the Arab lands to embrace Islam and to pledge allegiance to him. It was this year that came to be known as 'the Year of the Delegations', during which, at one point, the Prophet became so exhausted from seeing people that he had to pray sitting down. So instead, Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) led the pilgrims. It was during this hajj that the ayat in the Quran that forbade the idol worshippers from ever entering the sanctuary of Mecca again were revealed; they were made public during the hajj by Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) who was sent straight from Medina to Mecca as soon as they had been revealed, so that as many people as possible would hear them. The following year, when the time for the pilgrimage drew near, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) announced that he was going on the hajj, and as a result everyone wanted to do it with him. The Muslims who did not live in or near Medina either first traveled to Medina in order to accompany him on the journey to Mecca, or else traveled to Mecca from every part of Arabia and joined him there.
Amongst the people on what has become known as 'the Farewell Pilgrimage' of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was A'isha, for the Prophet asked all of his wives, may Allah be pleased with them, to accompany him, to ensure that they all fulfilled this particular obligation that every Muslim owes to his or her Lord. It was an extraordinary pilgrimage. There never had been, and there never has been, and there never will be, another hajj quite like it, for at its heart was the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and around him were his family and Companions, may the blessings and peace of Allah be on them, and during it the ayat of the Qur'an was revealed:
This day I have perfected your deen for you and have completed My blessing on you, and have chosen Islam for you as your deen. (Quran 5:3)
It was also during this hajj that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) gave his famous Farewell Khutba, whose words still ring in our ears and echo in our hearts all these centuries later. When he had finished speaking to the thousands upon thousands of Muslims who were gathered around him on the plain of Arafa, he raised his voice slightly and asked, "My Lord, have I delivered the message?" And thousands upon thousands of voices from all around him answered his question: "Yes, you have." And many of those who were present passed on that message to those who ere not present, and so it has continued, right up until today. And one of those who was present was A'isha, of whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) once said, "Learn some of your deen from this red haired lady." Meaning A'isha.
This is not surprising, for she is one of the four people who have transmitted more than two thousand hadiths, the others being Abu Hurairah, Abdullah ibn Umar, and Anas ibn Malik. Many of these are about some of the most intimate aspects of personal behavior and hygiene which only someone in A'isha's position could have learned. It was during the course of his marriage with A'isha that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) married several other wives, usually to strengthen ties between important families and tribes, or to relieve the hardship of a woman who had been unexpectedly divorced or widowed, or in order to clearly demonstrate whom it wapermissible for a Muslim to marry, but above all because all of his marriage had been decreed by Allah, and because all of his wives were exceptional women.

The Position of 'A'isha

Of the Prophet's wives in Medina, (may Allah be pleased with all
of them), it is clear that it was A'isha that he loved the most: From time to
time, one or another of his Companions would ask him who it was that he loved
the most, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not
always give the same answer to this question, for he felt great love for many -
for his wives, for his daughters by Khadijah, for their children, for Sayyiduna
Abu Bakr and Sayyiduna Umar and Sayyiduna Uthman and Sayyiduna Ali, and for many
of his Companions and community - but of his wives the only one whom he named in
this connection was A'isha. She too loved him greatly in return and often would
seek reassurance from him that he loved her. "how is your love for me?" she once
asked. "Like the rope's knot," he replied, meaning that it was strong and
secure. Many times after that she would ask, "how is the knot?" and he would
reply: "Ala haliha" "The same as ever!"
Since A'isha loved the Prophet so much, she could not help being jealous if his attention were directed towards others more than what seemed enough to her. She once asked him, "O Messenger of Allah, tell me about
yourself. If you were between the two slopes of a valley, one of which had been
grazed, while the other had been grazed, on which slope would you pasture your
flocks?" "On the one that had not been grazed," replied the Prophet. "Even so," she said, "and I am not like any of your other wives. Every one of them had a
husband before you, except myself." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) smiled and said nothing.
It is clear that in spite of his wives' high station with Allah, (may Allah be pleased with them) they were still human, and at times rather jealous of each other. Thus, for example, it had been related by A'isha that the Prophet usually visited his wives every afternoon, after the Asr prayer. On one occasion he stayed longer than usual in the room of Zaynab bint Jahsh, for someone had given her some honey, of which the Prophet was very fond. "At this," said A'isha, "I felt jealous, and I, Hafsa, Sawda, and Safiyya agreed between ourselves that as he visited each of us, we would tell him that there was a funny smell coming from his mouth from what he had eaten, for we knew that he was particularly sensitive to offensive smells." Everything went as planned, and as a result, the Prophet vowed that he would never eat honey again, only to be reprimanded by the revelation of the following ayat:
O Prophet, why do you forbid what Allah has made lawful for you, in seeking to please your wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate. (Quran 66:1)
Allah made the whole matter known to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and he confronted the one whose idea it had been with the truth:
So when he told her about it, she said, 'Who told you this?' He said, 'I was told by the Knowing, the Aware.' (Quran 66:3)
This incident indicates the extent of the Prophet's submission to Allah. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was the means by which Allah taught the Muslims their deen in every moment and situation. What might have seemed an innocent bit of fun to his wives, (may Allah be pleased with them), was not permitted by Allah to result in any alteration to the hudud of Allah, to what is permitted and what is forbidden by Allah, for if the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had never eaten honey again, then many of his Companions and followers might have done likewise.
On another occasion, when one of the Prophet's other wives, Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her) complained on their behalf about the fact that more presents were being given to the Prophet on the day that he was with A'isha than on the days when he was with his other wives, he replied, "O Umm Salama, do not trouble me by harming A'isha, for by Allah, the Divine inspiration never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman amongst you except her." "I turn to Allah from troubling you, O Messenger of Allah," she said.
However the Prophet's other wives were still not content, and asked Fatima to speak to the Prophet on their behalf. When she raised the subject, he said, (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) "O my daughter, do you not love those I love?" "Yes." She said. "Then love her." He replied.
On another occasion, A'isha was on a journey with the Prophet and some of his Companions. She had borrowed a necklace from her sister Asma and during the journey she discovered that she had mislaid it. The journey wa delayed while some of the Companions looked for it, and after a while the time for the prayer came. There was no water with which to do wudu, so they became very agitated about that. They went to Abu Bakr and said, "Do you see what A'isha has done! She has caused the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to stop at a place where there is no water!" Meanwhile, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had fallen asleep with his head resting against A'isha's leg. Abu Bakr went up to A'isha and started to poke her and upbraid her for holding up the people when they did not have any water. She did not move because she did not want to disturb the Prophet's sleep. The Prophet soon woke up and the ayats about tayammum were revealed, making it clear to everyone what should be done when a Muslim on a journey needs to do wudu, but has no water.
Usayd ibn Hudayr said to Abu Bakr, "This is not the first blessing to have come from your family." And to A'isha, "May Allah reward you with good! By Allah, whenever you have difficulty, Allah relieves you of it and gives a blessing to the Muslims by it as well!"
When they were about to resume their journey, A'isha' s camel rose to its feet, and there was the necklace. The camel had been lying on it all the time! Being the daughter of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr, who on one occasion had given away all his wealth to be spent in the way of Allah, and the wife of Muhammad (may Allah be pleased with her) who kept nothing for himself, A'isha was very generous. On one occasion, the Prophet had sacrificed an animal, and A'isha was so generous in sharing the meat out amongst the poor, that she found that she had left nothing for the Messenger's large household except the shoulder of the animal. Feeling a little distressed, she went to the Prophet, and said, "I've only been able to save this." "That is the only part that you have not saved," smiled the Prophet, "for whatever you give away in the name of Allah, you save, and whatever you keep for yourself, you lose."
It is sometime forgotten that the Prophet Muhammad and his wives and Companions, may the blessings peace of Allah be on him and his family and his Companions, led very simple lives. It has been related that sometimes there was no smoke to be seen coming from the Prophet's home for weeks at a time meaning that there was not even flour to bake bread, let alone meat so that all there was to eat was dates and water, dates that came from palms whose roots the Prophet said were in the Garden.
On another occasion, a beggar asked A'isha for some food while she was fasting, and there was only a loaf of bread in her house. She said to her maid servant, "Give it to him." "But you will not have anything to eat when you break your fast." Protested the servant. "Give it to him," repeated A'isha. So she did so. When evening came, the people of the house of a man who did not usually give to them, gave them a sheep and some food to go with it. A'isha called her servant and said, "Eat from this. This is better than your loaf of bread!"
It has been related by A'isha, that once when it was the Prophet's turn to spend the night with her, he quietly got up towards the end of the night and slipped out of the room, closing the door quietly behind him. A'isha was curious to see where he was going, thinking that he had waited until he thought she was asleep. Quickly she got up, covered her head and silently followed him until he came to the graveyard ofal Baqi. "He stood there," said A'isha, 'and he stood for a very long time. Then he lifted his hands (in prayer) three times, and then turned to go, so I turned, He quickened his step, so I quickened my step. He began to run, so I began to run. I got back before he did, and entered my room and lay down. He came in and said, "Why are you out of breath, A'isha?"
"It's nothing." I said. "Tell me, or the One Who is All Pervading and All Ware will tell me." "Messenger of Allah," I said, "May my father and mother be a ransom for you." And then I told him. "Was it you who I saw running in front of me?" he said. "Yes." I replied, and he hit me on the chest and it hurt. "Did you think that Allah and His Messenger would treat you unjustly?" he asked. "Whatever anyone conceals, Allah knows it." I replied. "When you saw me leaving," the Prophet explained, "it was because Jibril had come to me. He called me without you knowing it and I replied, but without you knowing it, because you were not fully dressed. I thought that you were asleep, and did not want to awaken you in case you were frightened. He (Jibril) said, "Your Lord has commanded you to go to the people of Al Baqi and to ask forgiveness of them." "I said, "How should I pray for them?" "Say; Peace be on the people of this place (the graveyard), from among the believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and on those who will follow later; and inshAllah we will join you."
As the day of his own death approached, it is clear that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) wished to die in the company of A'isha, for it is reported that during his final illness, which was probably the result of the poisoned food that he had been given at Khaybar, he inquired, "Where will I be tomorrow, where will I be tomorrow?" since he was hoping it would be A'isha's turn to be with him. In fact the Prophet asked his wives ' permission to remain in A'isha 's room during his illness, and his other wives, (may Allah be pleased with them all), agreed to forego their turns. For much of the time during his last few days on earth the Prophet lay on a couch with his head resting on A'isha's breast or lap. She it was who repeatedly recited the last two surahs of the Qur'an, the two surahs of seeking protection, and then blew her breath over him, just as he had taught her to do in the past, and then passed his hand over his body. It is related by A'isha that she used his hand rather than her own, because she knew that his had had greater healing in it than her hand.
She was the one who took a toothstick from her brother chewed it soften it and then gave it to the Prophet. Despite his weakness, he rubbed his teeth with it vigorously. "So," said A'isha some time later, "Allah made my saliva mix with his saliva on his last day in this world and his first day in the next world." Not long afterwards, he lost consciousness and A'isha thought it was on the onset of death, but after a while, he opened his eyes and murmured softly, "The Highest Company." A'isha remembered that when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had been in good health in the past, he had said, "No prophet is taken by death until he has been shown his place in the Garden, and then offered the choice, to remain in this world or go to the Next World."
Remembering these words, she said to herself, "Then he will not stay with us." Then she heard him murmur, "O Allah, forgive me and have mercy on me and join me with the Highest Company, the people whom Allah has blessed from among the Prophets and the truthful ones, and the martyrs, and the righteous ones and the best of company are they." (Quran 4:69)
It was then that A'isha knew that he had been given the choice, and that he had made it. Again she heard him murmur, "O Allah, with the Highest Company," and these were the last words she heard him speak. Gradually his head grew heavier upon her breast, and gently she laid it on the pillow. Her beloved husband, the Messenger of Allah, the Seal of the Prophets, the Best of Creation, had died in her arms. At the time of his death, the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was sixty three years old, and A'isha was eighteen.
At first the Prophet' s Companions were not sure where he should be buried, but then Abu Bakr as Siddiq remembered what when he was alive, the Prophet had said that the Prophets were always buried where they had died, so the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was buried in A'isha's room where he had died. A'isha has related that during his final illness, Umm Habiba and Umm Salama mentioned that when they had been in Abyssinia they had seen a church which had pictures in it. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) replied, "When one of their righteous people die, they build a place of worship on his grave and then decorate it with such pictures. In the sight of Allah they will be the worst of people on the Day of Judgment."
A'isha has also related that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Allah has cursed the Jews and the Christians because they made the graves of their Prophets and righteous ones places of worship." A'isha continued, "If it had not been for this, his grave would have been in an open place ,but it could not be so, due to the fact that it might become a mosque."
In the passage of time, the Prophet's mosque in Medina was enlarged again and again, so that now his grave is no longer next to the mosque, but inside it. However, although the hearts of the millions of Muslims who visit Medina every year are filled with love, for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) they are always careful to direct their worship towards Allah alone, perhaps remembering the words of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr when he first spoke to the Muslims who could not believe that their beloved Prophet had actually died:
"Whoever worshiped Muhammad, Muhammad is dead, and whoever worshipped Allah, Allah is the Living, and does not die." Then he quoted the ayat;
Muhammad is only a Messenger, whom other Messengers have preceded. Will it be that when he dies or is killed, you will turn your back on your heels? And whoever turns back on his heels will not harm Allah in the least, and Allah will reward the thankful. (Quran 3:144)
Thus it was that the family and Companions of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had to accept the inevitable, even though no loss ever had been or ever would be as great as theirs. It has been related by Anas ibn Malik that after the death of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) Sayyiduna Abu Bakr said to Sayyiduna Umar, "Let us visit Umm Ayman (who had looked after the Prophet when he was a small boy), for the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) used to visit her." When they came to her, she was weeping, and they said to her: "Why are you weeping? What the Messenger of Allah, (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has now a better than this." "I am not weeping because I am unaware of the fact that what the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has now a better than this," she replied, "but I am weeping because the revelation that used to come from the heavens has ceased." This moved both of them to tears, and they began to weep with her.
A'isha Siddiqa (may Allah be pleased with her) once said, "O would that I were a leaf on a tree!" lived on for another fifty years after him after the Prophet's death, (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) dying at the age of sixty eight, in 58 AH (may Allah be pleased with her)
During that time she saw many changes, not all of which were pleasant ones, for with the expansion and the conquests that the Muslims experienced, there came wealth, and with the wealth came disagreements and power struggles, and as we all know, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "I do not fear poverty for my community, but I fear wealth for them, for it destroy them as it destroy the people before them."
A'isha, however, like all of the Prophet's wives, (may Allah be pleased with all of them) remained detached from this world and longed to be reunited with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the next; but while she was alive, she passed on her knowledge and wisdom to everyone who came to her. Much of what she transmitted was recorded in written form, and so countless Muslims have continued to benefit form it right up until today.
Abu Musa reported that Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "There have been many men who have reached perfection, but no women, have reached perfection except Mary, the daughter of Imran, Asiyya, the wife of Pharaoh, and the excellence of A'isha as compared to the other women in that of tharid (meat or vegetable stew, which was the Prophet's favorite food) over all other foods."
Conclusion
Qadi Iyad relates that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Recognition of the family of Muhammad is freedom from the Fire. Love of the family of Muhammad is crossing over Sirat. Friendship for the family of Muhammad is safety from the Fire."
One of the ulama said, "Recognition, in this case means recognizing their place in relation to the Prophet. Recognition of that brings with it recognition of the rights and respect that are due to them because of it."
Qadi Iyad also wrote, "Cursing the people of the Prophet's house, his wives and his Companions, and disparaging them is haram, and the one who does it is cursed.'
Abdullah ibn Mughaffal said that the Messenger of Allah said, "Allah, Allah, my Companions! Do not make them a target after me. Whoever loves them, it is by my love that he loves them. Whoever hates them, incurs my hate by doing so. Whoever harms them has harmed me. Whoever harms me has harmed Allah. Whoever harms Allah is about to b e seized." (At- Tirmidhi)
The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Do not curse my Companions. Whoever curses them, the curse of Allah and the angels and all people is on him. Allah will not accept any recompense or counterweight from him."
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Do not curse my Companions. A people will come at the end of time who will curse my Companions. Do not join them and do not join with them and do not marry with them and do not sit in their assemblies and if they are ill, do not visit them."
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever curses my Companions, beat him."
Th Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) reported that cursing and harming them harmed him. It is haram to harm the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). He said, "Do not harm me in respect of A'isha." HE said about Fatima, "She is part of me. What harms her, harms me." The best known position with respect to speaking ill of the Companions is that adopted by the school of Malik.
Malik said, "Whoever reviles the Prophet, (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is killed. Whoever reviles his Companions should be disciplined."
Qadi Iyad also wrote: It is related from Malik that anyone who curses Abu Bakr is flogged whereas anyone who curses A'isha is killed. He was asked, "Why is that?" He said, "Whoever attacks her has opposed the Quran."
Ibn Shaban related this from Malik because Allah has said, "Allah wishes that you should never repeat the like of it again if you are believers." (24:18) ; so whoever does repeat the like of it has disbelieved.
Qadi Iyad also wrote: There are two positions regarding someone who curses one of the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) other than A'isha. One position is that he is killed because he has cursed the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) by cursing his wife. The other is that she is considered to be like the other Companions. He is flogged with the hadd for slander. Ibn Shaban takes the first position.
Abu Musab related from Malik that someone who curses someone who is connected to the House of the Prophet is given a painful beating and imprisoned for a long time until his repentance is clear because he has made light of what is due to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)

And may the blessings and peace of Allah be upon the Prophet Muhammad, and on his family and on his Companions, and on all who follows him and them in what they are able with sincerity, until the Last Day. AMEEN!

EVILution
28-08-02, 06:42 PM
Salaam,

I'm sure that I've read b4 that Hazrat Aisha(RA) were 6 when they were married, but went to the Prophet Muhammad(saw)' house when they were 9 and then when they became a widow were 18 years old......but I've never read 19!!!!!!!!!

baba
28-08-02, 06:49 PM
M Y, please read carefully through Muawiyah's post, that explains everything.

AbuMubarak
28-08-02, 06:56 PM
The marriage of the Prophet Muhammad to 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr when she was at quite a young age has been the focus of quite a bit of criticism in the West. Unfortunately, in this Neo-Colonialist Age of smart bombs, MTV, CNN and the Big Mac, some of those who profess to be Muslims have themselves become critics. Many Muslims, faced with the juggernaut of allegedly "universal" Western liberal values that have permeated almost everyone around them, sheepishly avoid discussion of such "embarrassing" Islamic issues. It is a keenly true observation that even though the European powers have pulled their colonial armies out of Muslim lands and granted them "independence", an even worse plague continues. This curse is "Colonialism of the Mind" and it is more dangerous since it is much more subtle. Insha'llah, this article will be a contribution to making both Muslims and non-Muslims aware of not only the objective facts regarding the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah, but how to understand it in light of Islam and life in the "modern" world.
Regrettably, for those of us trying to spread the truth of Islam in the West, we often have to agree with the Orientalist W. Montgomery Watt when he wrote: "Of all the world's great men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."1 But here, for a change, were are dealing with something that is an authentic part of Islamic history, not an apocryphal or fabricated event that Westerners have been duped into believing is authentic, such as the so-called "Satanic Verses" incident. That a man in his fifties would marry such a young girl—especially a man who is supposed to be a living example of piety—is not only difficult for many "modern" Westerners to come to terms with, but it has even gone so far as to stir up disgusting "sexual misconduct" charges amongst them. In the face of such criticism, Muslims have not always reacted well. In the past century, when so many Muslims were so "Westoxicated" and ready to monkey Europeans in almost anything, the usual reaction was to deny the sources that reported the alleged "embarrassing problem". To Muslim "modernists", who argued that ONLY a legal ruling found in the Qur'an was Islamically valid, brushing aside this aspect of the Prophet's life was rather easy. They simply denied that it had occurred and attacked the sources which reported it. Fortunately for Muslims, the apologetics of these "Uncle Toms of Islam" has faded into the periphery to a large extent. However, there are still many Muslims out there who try to get around what they see as a problem by ignoring authentic Islamic sources while claiming to be followers of the Ahl as-Sunnah. (which basically means "orthodox Sunni" Muslims, for those unfamiliar Islamic terminology). Many other Muslims possibly wonder whether the story is authentic and how to understand it if it is.



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THE ISLAMIC EVIDENCE OF 'AISHAH'S AGE

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Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which 'Aishah married the Prophet is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of BOTH the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah and/or The Sunnah and Its Position in Islamic Law. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari and three ahadith in Saheeh Muslim which clearly state that 'Aishah was "nine years old" at the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet . These ahadith, with only slight variation, read as follows:

'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)
Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old". Additionally, a hadeeth with basically the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abu Dawood. Needless to say, this evidence is—Islamically speaking—overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about 'Aishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push 'Aishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet . It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadeeth collections of Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim! Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that 'Aishah's age was "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage. This source is "The Biographies of Prominent Muslims" which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .



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THE PROPHET'S MARRIAGES IN PERSPECTIVE

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To put all of this in perspective—hopefully without undue apologetics—the first thing that one should be aware of is that 'Aishah was the third wife of the Prophet , not the first. Prior to this, the Prophet's first and only wife for twenty-four years was Khadijah bint al-Khuwaylid, who was about nineteen years older than him. He married Khadijah when she was forty and he was twenty-one—which might be called the years of a male's "sexual prime"—and stayed married ONLY to her until her death. Just after Khadijah's death, when he was round forty-six years old, the Prophet married his second wife Sawdah bint Zam'ah. It was after this second marriage that the Prophet became betrothed to 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her. She was the daughter of Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet's closest friends and devoted followers. Abu Bakr, may God be pleased with him, was one of the earliest converts to Islam and hoped to solidify the deep love that existed between himself and the Prophet by uniting their families in marriage. The betrothal of Abu Bakr's daughter 'Aishah to Muhammad , took place in the eleventh year of Muhammad's prophethood, which was about a year after he had married Sawdah bint Zam'ah and before he made his hijra (migration) to al-Madinah (Yathrib). As mentioned above, the marriage with 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr was consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra from Makkah to al-Medinah. At the time of his marriage to ''Aishah, the Prophet was over fifty years old.

It should be noted that the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah was an exceedingly happy one for both parties, as the hadeeth literature attests. 'Aishah, may God be please with her, was his favourite wife and the only virgin that he ever married. After emigrating to al-Madinah, Muhammad married numerous other wives, eventually totalling fifteen in his lifetime. Even though we do not have time to go into the details of each one of them here, each of these marriages was done either for political reasons, to strengthen the ties of kinship or to help a woman in need. Quite a few of the wives were widows, older women or had been abandoned and thus were in need of a home. Additionally, it should be mentioned that the same collection of Muslim hadeeth literature that tells us that 'Aishah was only nine years old at the time of the marriage tells us that the marriage was Divinely ordained:

Narrated 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her: The Messenger of God said (to me): "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from God, He will cause it to come true.'" (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)
Thus like everything that the Prophet did, there was wisdom behind it and lessons to be learned from it. The wisdom behind such incidents provides us guidance on the basis of human morality, exposes the double standards of misguided hypocrites from other religions that criticize Islam and much more. But more on that subject below. . .


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CRITICISM ADDRESSED AND ENTERTAINED

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Myself and many other Muslims should no longer be surprised by the double standards that Christians display when they criticize the conduct of Prophet Muhammad , since we've heard it for so long. To have an atheist, agnostic—or anyone else who does not believe in a Divinely revealed basis for morality—criticize something that is "politically incorrect" by today's moral standards comes as no surprise. Such people will always find something to criticize, since they simply have a bone to pick with "religion" in general. All of this "absolute morality" talk gets in the way of them having a good time, so they want to mock it, discredit it and do away with it. The criticism of Christians, however, is another matter. While it is true that Christians speak out against the "moral relativity" which is spreading amongst the increasingly secular society today, they too are unconscious victims of it. The values of most Christians today come from the humanist values of Western Europe (or, at a minimum, are heavily influenced by them). Their values DO NOT come straight out of the Bible—in theory or in practice—regardless of what they may claim. That Christians today try to take credit for the so-called "Freedom", "Human Rights", "Democracy" and "Women's Rights" in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me. One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is, at its core, both selfish and non-universal. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into "moral relativism" without even realizing it.

According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society. As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come. Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, and other information that we will provide below, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians to criticise the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah at such a young age. In case Christian readers are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married:

Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old. I live in country where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist". So even though Christians might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today—whether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion—they too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism". Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who do not believe in a Divine basis for morality, but they're giving in nonetheless.
Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. This was the case in Biblical times, as we will discuss below, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world. As the ahadith about 'Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this? Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus grew up in). The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time which a marriage can be consummated is at the onset of sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today—it is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new!
The criticism of Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah is something relatively new in that it grew up out of the values of "Post Enlightenment" Europe. This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong. It is interesting to note that Christians from a very early time criticized (again hypocritically) the Prophet's practice of polygamy, but not the marriage to 'Aishah. Certainly, those from a Middle Eastern Semitic background would not have found anything to criticize, since nothing abnormal or immoral took place. It was European Christians who began to criticize Muhammad on this point, not ones who were in touch with their Semitic roots.
It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions. It should also be mentioned that in Islam, it is unlawful to force someone to marry someone that they do not want to marry. The evidence shows that 'Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad was one which both parties and their families agreed upon. Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.
None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to 'Aishah's young age. On the contrary, the marriage of 'Aishah to the Prophet was encouraged by 'Aishah's father, Abu Bakr, and was welcomed by the community at large. It is reported that women who wanted to help the Prophet , such as Khawlah bint al-Hakeem, encouraged him to marry the young 'Aishah. Due to the Semitic culture in which they lived, they certainly saw nothing wrong with such a marriage.
Society's ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called "modern" and "civilized" West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur'anic times. Unfortunately, many of us carry the baggage of "romantic love" and ideas about sex that have managed to poison our minds since the Europeans (and their ideas) came to dominate the globe. These ideas have not only penetrated into the minds of Muslims, but actually permeate many of them. The European colonial powers have pulled out of almost all Muslim lands, but the colonization of the minds continues! As we mentioned above, the sad part is that most people do not even realize that they are under such un-Godly influences. Just to reference the way things have changed, a statement in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica makes it clear that values regarding the proper age of marriage have been changing over the years: ". . . in the United States and parts of Europe the association of adult status with sexual maturity as expressed in the term puberty rites has been unwelcome".2
The significance that sex and sexuality are thought to play in human psychology has its roots in Freudian thought. Even though many of Freud's ideas are being heavily challenged today, many of his ideas still play a role in the thinking of many people. Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) taught that humans are basically "sexual beings" whose childhood sexual urges are the key to understanding their behaviour. He developed the methodology of psychoanalysis and his ideas on sex, repressed guilt and sexuality, the subconscious sex drive, the Oedipus complex and other ideas have come to almost haunt the Western view of sexuality (almost as much as the repressive views of the Roman Catholic Church). Needless to say, Freud's ideas have been criticized by believing Jews, Christians and Muslims since they basically deny human moral responsibility. In Freud's view of things, human beings are prisoners to the effects of unconscious forces and their sex drive. Such ideas are always welcomed by "liberals", "humanists" and others like them. The point of all this in regards to young marriage, however, might be less clear. What needs to be pointed out is the contradictory "modern" Western view of sexuality. They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it's an age old custom. However, they have junior high schools where sex education is taught and a society where sexually permiscuous "dating" is considered the norm. Sometime sex is simply a natural pleasure to be enjoyed, but at other times it is a psychological demon of far reaching consequences. In short, everything from their private lives to their court systems, have fallen victim to the moral relativity of the psychiatrists and psychologists. The attitude that any experience in life can be seen as some sort of "trauma" is very widespread. Many people go through life constantly obsessed about what sort of "complex" they may be suffering from due to experiences they've had in their relatively normal life. The morality which is produced by such attitudes all but does away with human responsibility. People who are guilty of serious crimes, instead of being held responsible for their actions, are themselves considered "victims", since they are only doing what their psychological makeup causes them to do.


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PUBERTY = MATURITY = MARRIAGE

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The above points having been presented, some additional details on a few of them is worthwhile. An interesting article on the age at which people married in Biblical times is Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs, by Jim West, ThD—a Baptist minister. This article states that:

"The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line;"
This is just one reference to the fact that the onset of puberty was considered the age at which young people could marry. That people in Biblical times married at an early age is widely endorsed. While discussing the meaning of the word 'almah, which is the Hebrew word for "young woman" or "adolescent female", Gerald Segal says:

"It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age".3
In spite of its somewhat arrogant Western talk of "primitive cultures", An Overview of the World's Religions makes it clear that puberty is an age old symbol of adulthood:

"Almost all primitive cultures pay attention to puberty and marriage rituals, although there is a general tendency to pay more attention to the puberty rites of males than of females. Because puberty and marriage symbolize the fact that children are acquiring adult roles, most primitive cultures consider the rituals surrounding these events very important. Puberty rituals are often accompanied with ceremonial circumcision or some other operation on the male genitals. Female circumcision is less common, although it occurs in several cultures. Female puberty rites are more often related to the commencement of the menstrual cycle in young girls."
Some female authors agree:
"Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture." (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)
"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood (From the Women's Resource Center)

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says: ". . . women marry soon after puberty"4. The previous quotations, and plenty of others which were not used, should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.
It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e. with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!). Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children—"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live for as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.



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THE AGE OF PUBERTY

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Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place. This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad and 'Aishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty. However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle, 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi says:

Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the book Woman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5 Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred. Marie Espino has summarised some of these data as follows: (a) The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone; (b) The average age varies widely and it ay be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.6
Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says: "The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others." An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:
"During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body."
Many will readily agree with the information above, but still may harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of 'Aishah and the Prophet was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadeeth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:
"When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse" 7


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MORE WISDOM BEHIND IT

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In his comments on the ahadith in Sahih Muslim which mention 'Aishah's young marriage to the Prophet , 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi shows points three other reasons for this marriage:

'Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad at an early age allowed her to be an eye witness to the personal details of his life and carry them on the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet , the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual, teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities helped support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. 'Aishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'an, an authority on hadeeth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahadith that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad .
At that time, this marriage refuted the notion that a man could not marry the daughter of a man who he had declared to be his "brother" (even in the religious sense). Since the Prophet and Abu Bakr had declared each other to be "brothers", this notion was done away with. This is demonstrated in the following hadeeth:
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aishah's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said, "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in God's religion and His Book, but she ('Aishah) is lawful for me to marry." (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18)
The marriage did away with the pagan Arab superstition that it was a bad omen to be married in the month of Shawwal. They thought that the month carried this omen since the word Shawwal was derived from Shaala, which itself was believed to carry a bad omen. The authentic ahadith indicate that the Prophet and 'Aishah were married in this lunar month.


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NOT MUCH ADO BACK THEN

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Above, we established that fact that getting married at puberty was an accepted practice amongst not only today's "primitive cultures", but specifically amongst the Semitic (i.e. Hebrew, Arab, Syriac, etc.) peoples of the Middle East. In order to provide additional proof that Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah did not raise any eyebrows at that time, I here submit quotations from two Western female scholars who have studied Islam in detail:

"It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place. According to some versions, it was in the month of Shawwal of the Year 1, that is, some seven or eight months after the arrival at Medina; but, according to others, it was not until after the Battle of Badr, that is, in Shawwal of the second year of the Hijrah. In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play."8
In the above quotation, the sources which are given for the latter date are "Nawawi" and "Tabari". Both Imams al-Nawawi and al-Tabari were great Muslim scholars, but their works contain material that is less than authentic by Islamic standards, which is probably the reason over her questioning which date is authentic. This is all beside the point, since we've already shown that authentic Islamic sources state that 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, was "nine years old". The main point to note is that in "no version" was any comment made on their age difference or on 'Aishah's young age. Why? Such an early marriage was normal in all Semitic societies - such as the ones that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad grew up in!
Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add: "Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty".9 This further establishes that the marriage took place at puberty and that, as such, no eyebrows were raised. "Tabari", it should be mentioned, refers to Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jareer al-Tabari (225-310 AH / 839-923 CE), who was a great Muslim scholar who is well known in the West for his Qur'anic commentary and history of the world.

It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of 'Aishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time. This is no surprise, since anyone who studies the Muslim sources and Semitic culture would be forced to come to the same conclusion, since it is simply a historical fact. It should be pointed out that both of the above quoted female authors do not hesitate to misrepresent Islam (intentionally or unintentionally) in their other writings. Suffice it to say that if there was some other "damaging" information available, they would not hesistate to bring it to light. Nabia Abbott, who has done some useful research on Islam in some areas, was basically an "Orientalist" in the classic sense. Her book which was quoted above, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, is actually nothing but a disgusting second-guessing of 'Aishah's life. If a book with a similar mix of speculation and inauthentic sources were written about someone of significance in the West, it certainly would not be sitting on scholarly bookshelves. It's has long been established that Orientalists with a bone to pick with Islam liked to decide on the authenticity of a story based on their pre-conceived notions. If an inauthentic story seemed to belittle the Prophet of Islam, it became oft quoted. However, any authentic material that contradicted their theories was simply ignored. It's analogous to writing a historical biography of Jesus and using quotations from apocryphal gospels to override the Canonical ones whenever whimsically deemed appropriate. This is how Orientalists and Christian missionaries have been treating Muhammad for centuries. For those who want to know more about this, please read our article Orientalism, Misinformation and Islam.



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SO WHAT'S THE VERDICT?

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Overcoming cultural bias or admitting your own double standards is not always easy. For some people, it takes years for them to admit that they've been hypocritical. Hopefully, the thoughts presented here will plant the seed of reflection in some people so that they may reflect on the truth. Admitting that there's a problem is often half the battle, so before the reader heads off to make a final personal judgement on where they stand on this issue, I want to provide some more food for thought. Montgomery Watt, a long time scholar of Islam, had some choice words on how the West should judge Muhammad . I have never agreed with many of Watt's conclusions about Islam, but I have always viewed him as one of the more open-minded and open-hearted Orientalist scholars. Possibly, this is because he was more of a promoter of understanding than a narrow-minded Christian missionary. Years of studying Islam brought Watt to this conclusion:

"The other main allegations of moral defect in Muhammad are that he was treacherous and lustful . . . Sufficient has been said above about the interpretation of these events to show that the case against Muhammad is much weaker than is sometimes thought. The discussions of these allegations, however, raises a fundamental question. How are we to judge Muhammad ? By the standards of his own time and country ? Or by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today? When the sources are closely scrutinized, it is clear that those of Muhammad's actions which are disapproved by the modern West were not the object of the moral criticism of his contemporaries. They criticized some of his acts, but their motives were superstitious prejudice or fear of the consequences. If they criticized the events at Nakhlah, it was because they feared some punishment from the offended pagan gods or the worldly vengeance of the Meccans. If they were amazed at the mass execution of the Jews of the clan of Qurayzah, it was at the number and danger of the blood-feuds incurred. The marriage with Zaynab seemed incestuous, but this conception of incest was bound up with old practices belonging to a lower, communalistic level of familial institutions where a child's paternity was not definitely known; and this lower level was in process being eliminated by Islam . . . From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'."10


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FROM ABRAHAM TO "PICK-AND-CHOOSE / FEEL GOOD RELIGION"

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Everything that we have discussed above logically frees Muhammad from the unjust criticism that he has received (at least amongst those who can be intellectually honest and fair-minided). One point, however, still needs to be made a bit more clear. Even though we've mentioned it in passing, the hypocrisy and double standards of Christians who criticize Muhammad for his morality needs to be more thoroughly analysed and exposed.

Before moving on to an analysis of Biblical morality, I would like to offer some advice and encouraging words to my fellow Muslims. My main piece of advice is to not be discouraged by slanderous attacks on Islam or how it is distorted in the media. Certainly, we all hate to see such things occur, but in the "Information Age" which was brought about by a culture that (allegedly) places a supreme value on freedom of speech, there is not much that we can do to stop it. The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it. Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that Christians and others are using to stop it. From the "moon god" lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West. Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as Christian missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam is a good sign. Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause. When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised. The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous "Third World" religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills Christian bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off to Islam. The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won't be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.


Their methods, however, are failing. In Europe especially, the Christian religion is in a severe state of stagnation and people are looking for truth elsewhere. Christians have always been embarrassed by their almost complete inability to convert a notable Muslim to Christianity. Certainly, they have their converts that they hold up as examples, however all of them seem to have been only nominal Muslims (at best) when they converted. However, many notable Westerners have embraced Islam, recently as well as in the past. One of the most interesting things about this is many (if not all) of these people could be called "Searchers for the Truth". By this I mean that they were the type of people who were spiritual, open-mined and read books on many subjects. They were not brainwashed simpletons who simply wanted to join an easy religion and the dominating culture of the time. They were people who knew a lot not only about religion, but about history, philosophy and other disciplines. Suffice it to say that the truth of Islam is out there, in spite of all the negative press that it gets today. The following is just one testimony that Islam is spreading in the West:

"Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country . . . Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. (The Times , London, Tuesday, November 9th, 1993, Home-News page)
Thanks be to God that many of us who are former "pew warmers" finally decided to go out and investigate what they try to spoon feed us from the pulpit and TV. Why does Islam succeed in attracting Christians and others? Because it's the Clear Way of Abraham. No other religion today can honestly claim this! Islam isn't just a "feel good" religion where they just tell you what you want to hear and read selected verses from the Bible. Most Christians today approach religion like they do Sunday brunch: they take what they like and leave what they don't like. They have this attitude in spite of the fact that Abraham is held up in their Bible as a towering example of faith. Abraham , who was going to sacrifice his own son because Almighty God commanded it, certainly knew the basis of morality. It is clear in both the Bible and the Qur'an that Abraham knew that whatever God commands is the right thing to do. However, how many Christians today can say that they honestly believe that on all issues? How many of them have reflected on the moral ramifications of what is contained in their Bible? Seemingly, not even their learned apologists who attack Islam have reflected on it too deeply!

The question "What is our basis for morality?" is an easy one for those who follow the faith of Abraham —and that's what Islam is. Islam is submission to the Will of Almighty God - "We hear and we obey"- the faith of our father Abraham. If it was good enough for Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, then it's good enough for me! It is this truth and this attitude that attracts people to Islam. The entire basis of Islam, which produces this attitude, is Unity—the Unity of Almighty God and the unity of mankind. To be sure, the message of Islam appeals to the very nature of man. No wonder it is spreading! A Christian theologion, relatively recently, observed:


"It is probable that early in the twenty-first century Islam
will have become numerically the largest of the world religions" 11


Quite possibly, if you count only Sunni Muslims (which are at least 85% of Muslims), we are already the largest religion in the world when compared not to "Christians" as a whole, but to either the Orthodox, Roman Catholics or Protestants each separately.



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A CASE STUDY IN BIBLICAL MORALITY

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Now that we've taken an detailed look at an alleged moral difficulty in the life of Muhammad , for the sake of balance, let's take a look at a moral difficulty in the Bible. We've already made statements above concerning the nature of Biblical morality, but many readers may be unaware of some of its "difficulties". For better or for worse, in Sunday school they generally skip the verses which we are going to deal with below. However, these verses certainly are useful tools in putting intellectually honest Christians in the same "moral dilemna" that they think Muslims should be in due to Muhammad's young marriage to 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her. It should be kept in mind that the purpose of this discussion is the basis for morality, not the inspiration of the Bible (or lack thereof). For the purposes of this discussion, we accept the Bible "as is". However, this should not be interpretted to mean that we are endorsing it as the "Word of God" in toto. On the other hand, it should not be interpreted to mean that we are attacking the "Word of God", since we are discussing it simply because Christians consider it to be the "Word of God" (whatever their particular definition might be). For those wanting more detailed information on the Muslim view of the Bible, please click here.


The portion of the Bible that we want to look at begins with the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17 and 18. Here, Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children. The order continues with the following:



". . . kill every woman who has known man by lying with him,
but all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves."

One can only guess how the Israelites determined who the virgins were. Most probably, they did it based on age and maturity, assuming that all of the female "children" who had not reached puberty were virgins. Keep in mind that this was done, according to the Bible, on God's command to "Avenge the Israelites on the Midianites". Later, God gives Moses instructions on how to divide up the booty, "whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheeps or goats". Based on this command, "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known a man by lying with him" were divided up. This was done so that the Israelite soldiers could have these young girls "for themselves". I do not suspect that anyone reading this is either so naive or ignorant of King James English to not know what this means!


Moving along to another great example of Biblical morality, . . . in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 the Biblical "God of Love" gives the following command:


"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thoust has taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire unto her, that though would have her to be thy wife, then though shalt bring her home to thine house . . . and after that you may go into her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if though have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go".
This should serve as sufficient proof that the morality that is taught in the Bible often is not what Christians make it out to be. In spite of what they teach in Sunday school, the above mentioned verses demonstrate the following:

Almighty God, at least according to the Bible:
* Ordered innocent babies to be killed; and
* He allowed young women to be forced into sex against their will.

Before moving on, it should be noted that killing women and children in war is never permitted under Islamic Law (the actions of some ignorant Muslims around the world notwithstanding). Some Christians may take issue with the words "innocent babies" above, since they believe that even babies are tainted with "Original Sin". However, this is not the topic of the discussion at hand. Suffice it to say that Biblical support for the Doctrine of Original Sin is contradictory at best. There are some verses that seem to support it, but there are others that seem to clearly deny it. One strike against "Original Sin", besides the fact that it's simply unjust, is the fact that the Jews—who read the Old Testament—never belived in it the way Chrisitnas do. But anyway . . . when faced with the problematic parts of the Old Testatment, Christians react in various ways. Many offer up the ill thoughtout "Well-That's-in-the-Old-Testament" defense. In spite of the fact that they usually don't brush the Old Testament aside so quickly when they are being shown alleged prophecies which match Jesus, a few other thoughts can be presented. Some of the things that make brushing aside the Old Tesament a bit more difficult (at least for Christians who want to remain intellectually honest) are: 1) the same God that "inspired" the Old Testament "inspired" the New Testament; 2) this same God is "unchanging" according to the Bible; 3) Jesus in the New Testament endorses the "Law and the prophets" (i.e. the Old Testament) in several places; and 4) without the Old Testament there is no basis for Christianity.

When put in this predicament, Christians, have one of two choices: 1) stop thinking about it and fall back on a liberal "pick-and-choose" religion that just makes them "feel good" but does not answer any of life's more difficult questions; or 2) accept the (allegedly) Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible "as is" and en toto.


There are Christians out there who claim to accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible. They understand what's at stake and the issues at hand. If people are allowed to whimsically decide what is right and what is wrong, there would be chaos. Just as importantly, if people decide what is "God's Word" and what is not His word based on their preconceived notions and "modern" sensibilities, nothing would be left of the Bible. As such, there are Christians who, in principle, say that killing babies is "moral" as long as God clearly commands it. For someone who understands the nature of Divinely Revealed morality, we would have to agree in principle but with certain reservations. As mentioned above, Almighty God—according to Islam—never commands the killing of innocent children. That is one "difficulty" that I am glad that Muslims don't have to explain their way out of! Killing babies is okay as long as God commands it!?! So much for having Christians as baby-sitters!


The bottom line is that morality comes from Almighty God and from Him alone. However, if ones studies the Bible, it is plain to see that it is not a foundation for morality. The examples above are just a few that can be provided from both the Old and the New Testament. The people who promote "Biblical morality" pick and choose from the text as they please. Only in Islam can one with good conscience accept "the whole package" without ignorantly or hypocritically denying things that they don't like. This is how true internal peace and balance are achieved. If one belongs to a religions without accepting everything in its scripture (real or alleged) one is not only bearing false witness againt themself but against God Himself. With all the false ideas in the modern age, it's easy to be lead astray. The liberal Westeran morality that has now touched all corners of the globe is, culturally speaking, something like an eight-hundred pound gorilla. It's very hard to stand in its way or speak out against it. However, being encouraged by others to follow "vain desires" has been an eternal problem for mankind, as Almighty God makes clear in the Qur'an:



"Say: 'I will not follow your vain desires:
if I did I would stray from the path
and be not of the company of those who receive guidance.'"
Qur'an - Surah al-An'aam - 6:56

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GUIDEPOSTS TO BE THANKFUL FOR

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The Prophet Muhammad was a great example for all of humanity and peoples of different cultures (from "modern" Europeans to the aborigines of Australia). Not only was he a great Prophet and Messenger, but he was also a statesman, military leader, ruler, teacher, neighbor and friend. Family life was one of the most important areas where he was a great example, since he was both a husband and a father. Due to God's wisdom, His last and final prophet experienced a wide array of marriages and family situations. Due to this, he is an example for people who are monogamous, for those who are polygamous, for those wishing to marry those older than themselves and for those wondering how early someone can rightfully marry. Muhammad reestablished the Religion of Abraham so that it would continue to the Last Day.


As Muslims, we should be thankful for these guideposts in our moral journey through life. Reflecting on them aids us in avoiding being led astray into "moral relativism". This is a very dangerous thing, since it can lead to the worst of all sins—associating others with Almighty God in worship, belief and/or Lordship. By knowing the Prophet's life we can see how to stay within the boundaries laid by Almighty God and stay on the Natural Religion of Islam which was made to suit the natural disposition (fitrah) of mankind. I pray that we, as Muslims, make Almighty God's limits our limits, and that we are not influenced by other societies and cultures. If it was good enough for Abraham and Moses, then it's good enough for me . . .


That's the way I see it, but God knows best . . .






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FOOTNOTES

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1 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad at Medina, Oxford University Press, 1956.
2 "Rites and Ceremonies", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 26, page 850.

3 Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary, Ktav Publishing House,1981, page 28.

4 "Central Africa", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 15, page 646. See also "Aboriginal Australia", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 14, page 425. For additional references to the marriage customs in Biblical times, see Israel: Its Life and Culture, by Johannes Pedersen, Volume 1, page 60ff.

5 Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.

6 English-translation of Sahih Muslim, Volume 2, International Islamic Publishing House, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, page 715.

7 Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage : Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.

8 Nabia Abbott, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, Al-Saqi Books, London, 1985, page 7.

9 Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157.

10 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford University Press, 1961, page 229.

11 John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1993, page 87.


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DeRayeMustafa
28-08-02, 06:57 PM
...but I was wondering if there is any documentation of Ayesha's(ra) age at the time of her death and what year that was in. That should and would surely solve the mystery of her age at the time of consumation of her marriage with rasoolullah(saw).

EVILution
28-08-02, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by baba
M Y, please read carefully through Muawiyah's post, that explains everything.

Yes, I can tell from the responses brother Muawiyah is getting, but it is sooooooo long :(

The Strategist
28-08-02, 08:38 PM
If some in the Muslim Ummah are embarrassed by historical facts, it is not going to change reality. It is recorded without a doubt that Aisha was nine when she married the Prophet and that remains a fact of life whether you like it or not.

Many a prophet in the history of mankind had young girls in either a wedlock or in concubinage. David and Solomon are some examples. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his descendents, did nothing extraordinary which other prophets before him had not done with regard to marrying a nine year old!

The West might view that with a self righteous hypocritical political correctness according to its own warped understanding of morality. But then, that is the West's problem.

Aisha was nine and that remains a fact as such. No measure of reshuffling the ahadith and twisting the facts will change the reality. Islam allows it. Period.

The Strategist
28-08-02, 08:39 PM
If some in the Muslim Ummah are embarrassed by historical facts, it is not going to change reality. It is recorded without a doubt that Aisha was nine when she married the Prophet and that remains a fact of life whether you like it or not.

Many a prophet in the history of mankind had young girls in either a wedlock or in concubinage. David and Solomon are some examples. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his descendents, did nothing extraordinary which other prophets before him had not done with regard to marrying a nine year old!

The West might view that with a self righteous hypocritical political correctness according to its own warped understanding of morality. But then, that is the West's problem.

Aisha was nine and that remains a fact as such. No measure of reshuffling the ahadith and twisting the facts will change the reality. Islam allows it. End of story.

caliph
28-08-02, 09:12 PM
ASA,

Hallelujah to that brother! Why on Earth a Muslim would go to such great lengths to try and 'apologise' for the actions of our beloved Prophet (SAW) is beyond me.

Aisha (RA) was 9 when married to Muhammed (SAW).

There is no need to apologise or distort this fact. Personally I find it frustrating that some members of the Ummah would try and pander to the Kufr by trying to make the marriage more acceptable :rolleyes:

Next they'll say the Sharia is outdated and it needs updating ... wait a minute, they've already tried that :rolleyes:

WS

Peace
28-08-02, 09:27 PM
I have been accused of trying to please the non-Muslims (which I am not), but if ever there was an article that was doing it, then it is this one!

I may not agree with Caliph, Raafi and the Strategist on other issues but I admire their integrity!

Hassan

eve
29-08-02, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by muawiyah
[B]What was Ayesha’s (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage? Posted 8-14-2002 10:48

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http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/what_was_ayesha.htm

What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage?

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported in the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayeshas (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father.
( HEARSAY, Hummm )

An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.
It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, ( YES VERY STRANGE, Hummmm. )

even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years.
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham ( are reliable except)
( EXCEPT ?? Hummm.)

those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq. (vol 11, pg 48 - 51)


hummmmmmm..... Quite interesting !! I wonder how many more mistakes have been recorded; or should I say, I wonder how much of the Quran has been CORRUPTED BY MAN, if the ahadith's are proven to be COPIED WRONG, or just plain CORRUPTED. I'm so glad you did your History Homework. *smile*
Eve..

AbuMubarak
29-08-02, 02:22 AM
eve,

you get an A in persistence and an F in reading comprehension

nowhere does it say that the quran states aisha's age

not even in a stretch of the imagination that can make worshipping a man as the "son of god"

The Strategist
29-08-02, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by hassanradwan


I may not agree with Caliph, Raafi and the Strategist on other issues but I admire their integrity!

Hassan

Likewise Hassan. Such is the beauty of Islam and the glory of the beloved Prophet and his AhlulBayt that allows its adherents and followers to have intellectual interactions without necessarily agreeing with one another all the time.

However, when when tries to distort fact and present fiction as reality, one only disgraces oneself. Islam, the Prophet and his AhlulBayt prevail. :)

MalcomBanned4?
29-08-02, 01:57 PM
Aisha was nine and that remains a fact as such. No measure of reshuffling the ahadith and twisting the facts will change the reality. Islam allows it. Period. At the time "kids" were married at an early age worldwide when the average lifespan was 30 something. Does Islam allow it today?

Peace
29-08-02, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by MalcomBanned4?
At the time "kids" were married at an early age worldwide when the average lifespan was 30 something. Does Islam allow it today?


Now this is my point. That was then and this is now!

I'm not giving an opinion about whether we should ban marriage at such a young age - but I AM saying we need to look at the change in times and decide whether this should be applied in our day and age.

I have never denied any hadith or any verse of the Qur'an. My point has always been - that "PERHAPS" these laws are not applicable in our day and age.

This is a far more honest response to such issues than the rather pathetic contortions of the apologists.

Hassan

The Strategist
29-08-02, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by MalcomBanned4?
At the time "kids" were married at an early age worldwide when the average lifespan was 30 something. Does Islam allow it today?

Islamic injunctions as established by the Prophet are valid till the Day of Judgement. Islam not only allows an early marriage between the opposite sexes but encourages it.

Girls in the West, whether the laws permit them or not, are sexually active much earlier than the permitted marriage age, usually 18 in most countries. Islam recognised this 1400 plus years ago and permits an early marriage now as it did then.

Peace
29-08-02, 02:26 PM
ASA Muawiyah,

So you agree with Prof. Ausaf Ali that the Shari'ah ruling regarding marriage at the age of 9 needs changing!

Quote from the article by Dr. Ausaf Ali:

"There is an authentic Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) (in Shu'ab al Iman) that the father ought to marry his son at puberty and his daughter at the age of 12. Because if he fails to do so, then if the son and/or the daughter commit the sin (of premarital sex), "the guilt of that rests upon the father."

"Shariah lays down the age of nine years as the age of maturity for women. Our question in our new environment in America is:
Notwithstanding the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) and the historical practice in Muslim countries, should we insist on enforcing the demand of the Prophet of marrying the Muslim boys and girls at 12 or 13 years of age?"

mr epistemology
29-08-02, 02:36 PM
salaam alaykum

i think there may be a difference amost the shia scholars about the age of ayesha's marrige. correct me if i am wrong.

some of the learned people i have spoken to have said that those narrations are fabrications.

what surprises me is the reactin by some of those who coinsider sahih muslim and bukhari 100% sahih. why not stick to your beliefs regarding those narrations that say she was 6 years old?




here in the west teenagers get physicaly mature before they get mentally mature. why? coould it be their lifestyle or food??

how do you think we should solve this problem? because if they are mentally imature to get married but they physically mature to commit sin.

muawiyah
29-08-02, 03:25 PM
yes brother hassan, i agree with him. Although a girl reaches puberty by the age of 9 but she should be married by the age of 12 and not before that. This is what the prophet insisted. This is because it takes time for the girl to grow up mentally and know how to shoulder responsibility.
a note to my dear brethren who state Ayesha was 9 years old when she was married:
I have read your posts and comments. Dear brethren I am not a person who tries to appease the non muslims or the west by remodeling or sugarcoding something in the religion. I myself used to believe that Ayesha was 9 years of age at the time of marriage. However when the evidence was brought to me regarding this matter that showed the reporter of this narration made a mistake at describing the age of Ayesha, i was compelled to abandon this view. I am in no way trying to discredit Sahih Bukhari. All what i am trying to point out that the narration (regarding the young age of ayesha) is reported by through only one person "Hani ibn Urwa" who was highly reliable but he made a small calculation mistake here, which often happens. Dear brethren there are authentic reports in our ahadith literature that shows clear as daylight that Ayesha was 19 years of age when she was first married to the Prophet. Please read my above post clearly even if seems long or frustrating for it explains the whole matter in more details.
as with respect to the age of Leader of the women of Paradise, sayidda Fatima uz Zahra(may allah be always pleased with her) she was born 5 years before the prophethood of Allah's Apostle. This means that when Fatima migrated to Madina, she was 13-14 years of age. It was here in Madina that the blessed marriage took place between her and the Lion of God Ali ibn Abi Talib(may allah be pleased with him). The claim that she was 9 years of age is found in the corrupt shiite texts whose traditions hold no value.

DeRayeMustafa
29-08-02, 03:54 PM
....no matter if she was 9 or 19 it really doesn't matter. All that we need to know and accept is that she was the wife of the Prophet (pbuh) and also one of the most valuble students and teachers of Islam. How many hadith come from her alone? The big picture is what we must look at. I personally always believed that she was 9 years old, and though I had trouble with that when I reverted, I came to understand that 1.) this was over 1400 years ago. Not even what, 100-200 years ago girls were getting married off at ages as young as 13, 14 and 2.) Allah has a plan for everything and is the best of planners, so who are we to look shamefully on something that we may not see the inner wisdom of? :confused:

Peace
29-08-02, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by hassanradwanSo you agree with Prof. Ausaf Ali that the Shari'ah ruling regarding marriage at the age of 9 needs changing!


Originally posted by muawiyah
yes brother hassan, i agree with him. Although a girl reaches puberty by the age of 9 but she should be married by the age of 12 and not before that. This is what the prophet insisted.

ASA Muawiyah,

Makes sense doesn't it? Which calls into question the view that the Shari'ah as formulated 1400 years ago is the perfect expression of God's will.

It should be clear to even the casual observer that the Shari'ah is the opinions of Scholars living a very long time ago about what THEY thought was the will of God based on Qur'an and Sunna. Of course these scholars were NOT perfect.

In which case it seems to me imperative that we look again at it in light of developments and changes in human society that these great scholars were obviously unable to forsee.

I don't know why some people on this Forum find that such an outrageous idea?

Hassan

haideriam
29-08-02, 06:36 PM
the mistress of paradise, the daughter of the holy prophet(pbuh&hhp) bibi fatema zahra was 9 when she was married to the face of allah, the maula e kainat hazrat ali murtaza, shere khuda

it is reported by shia imams that a girl should not have her first cycle at her parents home

haideriam
29-08-02, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by muawiyah
However when the evidence was brought to me regarding this matter that showed the reporter of this narration made a mistake at describing the age of Ayesha, i was compelled to abandon this view. I am in no way trying to discredit Sahih Bukhari.

had you asked some one to show you one false hadith in sahih bukhari

and as they say in arabic you slapped your own face

EVILution
29-08-02, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by haideriam
the mistress of paradise, the daughter of the holy prophet(pbuh&hhp) bibi fatema zahra was 9 when she was married to the face of allah, the maula e kainat hazrat ali murtaza, shere khuda


I read that Hazrat Fatima (ra) were 15 and Hazrat Ali (ra) were 21 when they were first married!

The Strategist
29-08-02, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by mr epistemology
salaam alaykum

i think there may be a difference amost the shia scholars about the age of ayesha's marrige. correct me if i am wrong.

Ayatollah Seestani replied to a query of mine on this one. She was nine according to reliable reports.

The Strategist
29-08-02, 07:10 PM
....as with respect to the age of Leader of the women of Paradise, sayidda Fatima uz Zahra(may allah be always pleased with her) she was born 5 years before the prophethood of Allah's Apostle. This means that when Fatima migrated to Madina, she was 13-14 years of age. It was here in Madina that the blessed marriage took place between her and the Lion of God Ali ibn Abi Talib(may allah be pleased with him). The claim that she was 9 years of age is found in the corrupt shiite texts whose traditions hold no value........Muawiyah

The Leader of the Women of Paradise, Bibi Fatima the blessed, was not born before the revelation. She was born to Bibi Khadija after the Prophet started receiving revelation. The lie about her being born before revelation was concocted by the enemies of AhlulBayt to reduce her status.

AbuMubarak
29-08-02, 07:21 PM
i read she was 15 also

strategist, even if she was 9, 15 or 95, her status would still be of the foremost women in paradise

The Strategist
29-08-02, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by hassanradwan




ASA Muawiyah,

Makes sense doesn't it? Which calls into question the view that the Shari'ah as formulated 1400 years ago is the perfect expression of God's will.

It should be clear to even the casual observer that the Shari'ah is the opinions of Scholars living a very long time ago about what THEY thought was the will of God based on Qur'an and Sunna. Of course these scholars were NOT perfect.

In which case it seems to me imperative that we look again at it in light of developments and changes in human society that these great scholars were obviously unable to forsee.

I don't know why some people on this Forum find that such an outrageous idea?

Hassan

What you are saying in other words Hassan Radhwan, is that the Shariah is an outdated legal code and needs to be reinvented to suit the present day society!

If your view is to be accepted, we would have by extension admitted that the prophecy of the Last Prophet of God needs a makeover!

You would have just said that we need a new Prophet to address the issues faced by the world today! That Islamic injunctions as established by the Prophet, preserved as the Shariah, need to be amended by the judgements and opinions of people like Dr. Ausaf Ali, whoever he is!

That is NOT acceptable to any clear thinking Muslim, who is loyal to Islam as revealed to Muhammad, peace be upon him and his descendents.

The Strategist
29-08-02, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Raafi
i read she was 15 also

strategist, even if she was 9, 15 or 95, her status would still be of the foremost women in paradise

No, I am refering to the issue whether she was born before the revelation or during the revelation. Not to whether she was 9 or more when she was married.

Peace
29-08-02, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by The Strategist
What you are saying in other words Hassan Radhwan, is that the Shariah is an outdated legal code and needs to be reinvented to suit the present day society!

No I'm not saying that. I am saying the scholars of the past were not perfect and they used their judgment. The example here is that they set the age of marriage at 9 or above in the Shari'ah. Yet the prophet himself - according to hadith said 12!

"There is an authentic Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) (in Shu'ab al Iman) that the father ought to marry his son at puberty and his daughter at the age of 12. Because if he fails to do so, then if the son and/or the daughter commit the sin (of premarital sex), "the guilt of that rests upon the father."

So here is an example of where there is strong grounds to argue that the age of marriage should not be below 12.

I certainly do not take it upon myself to do this, but surley our scholars can look again at such issues - taking into account the needs of a changing society.

I am NOT suggesting we change Shari'ah to suit the times or whims of man - but merely saying that our scholars still have room to use their ijtihad to our new situation and the changes in society.

Hassan

AbuMubarak
29-08-02, 10:42 PM
i think this whole thread represents a beauty of islam

all of us here know that whether aisha or fatima were 6, 9, 12, or whatever age doesnt really matter, its a matter for historians to clear up

what matters is that these women were close to the prophet and we respect them

and whatever their age was does not help us get into paradise or hell

nor should it be a point of contention between muslims

its just an item to discuss and then move on

Alhamdulillah for the hikmah of this deen

hassan, your thread about reforming is still disturbing

the mere discussion of reform is disturbing

if the prophet said that 12, 20 or 50 is the age, that is what we are left with, not for us to change this deen to accomodate anything or anyone temporal

this society is temporal, our thoughts and what we accept is temporal, islam is permanent

if those before us had done what you suggest, islam would be different and we would be like christians, constantly guessing at solutions to problems

as a matter of fact, there were many who tried to alter, thus, one of the reasons for the sects

so though i can understand your points of lets reflect on this deen and see what we can do to make it work, its really an exercise in futility and eventually it distracts from this deen

Allah said that he has perfected this deen, who are we to improve perfection?

Peace
29-08-02, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by AbuMubarak
so though i can understand your points of lets reflect on this deen and see what we can do to make it work, its really an exercise in futility and eventually it distracts from this deen

ASA Abu MUbarak,

Well I have all along said I am just asking questions - thinking out loud - if you like. I accept that that you may be right and I am way off the mark :)


Originally posted by AbuMubarak what matters is that these women were close to the prophet and we respect them

Indeed! And both Sunni and Shia have the deepest love and respect for all the Ahlul-Bayt.

Hassan

3aber sabeel
29-08-02, 11:02 PM
Assalam Alaykum,

I came late into the discussion. It seems that Raafi has done the job.
Great posts Raafi!

May Allah reward you in this life and the Hereafter.

AbuMubarak
29-08-02, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by hassanradwan


ASA Abu MUbarak,

Well I have all along said I am just asking questions - thinking out loud - if you like. I accept that that you may be right and I am way off the mark :)



hassan, in another thread i read you may be leaving us to return to teaching the young muslims

remember that everyone will be questioned about how they took care of their flock, i am sure a teacher will be questioned by Allah on how he taught his students

as you teach, remember Allah has an angel writing all good and bad, and that anything you do good and the students follow, you will be rewarded

and anything you do bad and the students follow, you will be punished

fear Allah, and think as if Allah is watching you (irrespective of the times we live in) and will raise you up and question you about every word, thought, and meaning you convey to those children

i end with my signature, May Allah bring us all closer to His OBEDIENCE

eve
30-08-02, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by AbuMubarak
eve,

you get an A in persistence and an F in reading comprehension

nowhere does it say that the quran states aisha's age

not even in a stretch of the imagination that can make worshipping a man as the "son of god"


NO >
You get an F in Comprehension; as my point was; If the hadiths are found to be corrupt about an age of someone, than more and likely the Quran has at one point or another been corrupt also as they are both history of the Islamic Religion. Now is that clear enough for you???..
and by the way; Jesus Christ is the SON of God;
The Father; The Word; and The Holy Ghost, all Equal== ONE GOD!
Jesus being the WORD.

EVE......

Peace
30-08-02, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by AbuMubarak
remember that everyone will be questioned about how they took care of their flock, i am sure a teacher will be questioned by Allah on how he taught his students

as you teach, remember Allah has an angel writing all good and bad, and that anything you do good and the students follow, you will be rewarded

and anything you do bad and the students follow, you will be punished

fear Allah, and think as if Allah is watching you (irrespective of the times we live in) and will raise you up and question you about every word, thought, and meaning you convey to those children

ASA,

If you knew me personally Abu Mubarak, you would know there is no need to say this.

But thank you anyway :)

Hassan

Qurratulain
30-08-02, 10:14 AM
Miss u really have a comprehension problem since as is said Quran is the word of Allah, hadith aint see the difference????

eve
30-08-02, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Qurratulain
Miss u really have a comprehension problem since as is said Quran is the word of Allah, hadith aint see the difference????

Oh I get it; So instead of God writing with his finger in stone like he did the laws for Moses; he came down, sat there with Muhammad with a pen in his hand and wrote the Quran, and then to have tons of copies made for everyone to read, He just kept writing even after the death of Muhammad; So I guess I do have a comprehension problem. *smile* hehehe.....

EVE.......

kumayl
31-08-02, 06:10 AM
Hey

one think i want to say

whether u sunnis do research or write ur own story

lol


ma salams
kumayl

hope u understand


samjhdar key liye ishara hi kaafi hey

kumayl
31-08-02, 06:10 AM
Hey

one think i want to say

whether u sunnis do research or write ur own story

lol


ma salams
kumayl

hope u understand


samjhdar key liye ishara hi kaafi hey

Consider
31-08-02, 11:17 AM
Peace

Never have I heard this accusation that Aisha was 19. It is a first.

We have many discussions on Jesus apparently being the son of God.

To put it straight, muslims dont believe god is human, and we dont believe he can have children. It is part of our basic belief. If he is the son, why did god only have one son??? why not more? why is three the magic number?

God does not live like humans, he does not need to eat, sleep and go to the toilet. Neither can he be killed by humans. How can you worship a person who you say can save you when he cant even save himself???

From your replies, it is obvious you dont know much about islam. I think in general, a lot of people do know about the quran and how it was revealed. So, I can assume you are just mocking.

Peace.

Qurratulain
31-08-02, 01:53 PM
hello,
Well Eve sister Bintomasood has replied to u so no point in me doing the same, but better find out first before making such ignorant assumptions.

eve
01-09-02, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Qurratulain
hello,
Well Eve sister Bintomasood has replied to u so no point in me doing the same, but better find out first before making such ignorant assumptions.


OKAY; All ignorant assumptions put aside, now to be serious;

Whose hand was it that pened the Quran?

Who made the Copies throughout the last 1400 years?

Who was the original witnesses to it being revealed?

When was the first Quran made public?

Why is it an ignorant assumption to think that; The Quran could very well be corrupted if in fact it was witnessed by the same people that wrote the Hadiths? and I'm NOT being sarcastic!!
I'm not the one that said Muhammads wife was 9 or 19, so reply to muawiyah about that.
EVE....

eve
01-09-02, 04:55 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bintmasood
[B]Peace

Never have I heard this accusation that Aisha was 19. It is a first.

Eve replies;
Me either; but what Muawiyah said; sounds pretty convincing.
_________________________________

We have many discussions on Jesus apparently being the son of God.

Eve replies;
Not apparently; But a fact; John 3:16, and scriptures are not corrupted.
_________________________________

To put it straight, muslims dont believe god is human, and we dont believe he can have children. It is part of our basic belief. If he is the son, why did god only have one son??? why not more? why is three the magic number?

Eve replies;
To put it straight; Christians don't believe God is a human either.
We are Only an Image of God in the Spirit. So God does not look like a human. God never gave birth to a son, as he was already with him in heaven from the beginning, God only sent him to deliver a message to mankind and to take our sins to the cross with him, as we are all sinners and deserve to go to the lake of fire; but because God loved us so much and he knew the laws were to hard for most people to live by, ( and God won't take back what he had already said in the laws); so Jesus was born to Mary in the flesh: ( but was the word in spirit ) so he could die the human death thereby taking our sins with him to the cross, thereby opening a new door for us to enter through to make it to heaven with our father God who loves all of us. and as far as God having only one son; We are all his children through Jesus Christ; Lets put it this way; God planted his seed in this human race with giving us Jesus as the seed; and as seeds go, you plant one seed, a tree grows; from the tree; many seeds drop to the ground and they too begins to grow; and it keeps going on and on, until the whole earth is Full of the goodness of the original tree that grew from the ONLY SEED GOD PUT HERE, so we are all part of that seed.
Now about 3 being a magic #; There is no magic to it, as magic is from satan, But 3 IS a Holy #; The Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost, and those 3 are ONE, and that One is GOD..
______________________________

God does not live like humans, he does not need to eat, sleep and go to the toilet. Neither can he be killed by humans. How can you worship a person who you say can save you when he cant even save himself???

Eve replies;
Of course God does not live like a human, eat, sleep, or go to the toilet, and connot be killed by anything, Thats just plain sarcastic to say. Jesus however was born to Mary in the flesh; but as I said before; ( He was the WORD in spirit,) as GOD is Spirit. You say how can I worship a person when he can't even save himself. I never did worship Flesh as all flesh dies; I only worship the spirit, which by the way; has never been killed, in fact he is still alive and doing very well, and will be returning very soon to take us all ( who believe in him ) home.

EVE.....

Consider
01-09-02, 07:30 AM
Peace

It is a well used argument (and for the right reasons) that the biblic text is corrupt. It has thousands of numerical and other mistakes and contadictory statements. Thousands. So forget about your concept of God, it fails on the fisrt point.

Let me ask you, how do you define God? and someone whoc is limited or without limits? Is your idea of God correct? Is one of the characteristics of a God his unbound power? that he can do anything? simply he wills and it will happen? Isnt this what a God should be like? after all, he is your creator, and the creator of everything, his power is limitless.

Humans are limited. We have limited kowledge and actions.

How can you say God is an image of humans? why are you bringing God so low as to compare him to humans, some who sin, drink, eat, sleep, go to teh toilet, die and rot at the end, is this your image of God???

You say you worship him in spirit, then you might as wel be idol-worshippers, they have the same reasons for bowing down to rocks. It is the same thing, you are reducing God to something that is so unlike God it is amazing.

And then you say we are all of Gods children!!! How many children does God have??? millions and millions you imply!!!

Yes, muslims also believe that Jesus (pbuh) will return. And we believe that he will then show what christianity (modern) really is.

4.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Three (Trinity)" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Peace.

jamila
01-09-02, 12:06 PM
Dear Eve,

I think you may be writing as *Angel's alter ego. I did warn you about spamming, didn't I?


We have many discussions on Jesus apparently being the son of God.
Eve replies;
Not apparently; But a fact; John 3:16, and scriptures are not corrupted.
See the threads on textual corruption in the scriptures to access the evidence that contradicts you. As '*Angel', you took part in the discussions.

To put it straight, muslims don't believe God is human, and we don't believe he can have children. It is part of our basic belief. If he is the son, why did god only have one son??? why not more? why is three the magic number?
Eve replies;
To put it straight; Christians don't believe God is a human either.
So Jesus wasn't human?

We are Only an Image of God in the Spirit. So God does not look like a human.
So Jesus is just the physical representation of the spirit of God?

God never gave birth to a son,
"BEGOTTEN, not made ?????"

as he was already with him in heaven from the beginning, God only sent him
G-D sent GoD ?? How can The Supreme send The Creator??

Say! "If there were other gods along with Him, as they say, then they would have sought a way against the Lord of the Throne."
Surah 17, al isra v. 42.

Have you chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead? If there were therein gods beside Allah, then verily both the heavens and the earth would have been disordered. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne, (far above) from all that they ascribe unto Him. He will not be questioned as to what He does, but they will be questioned. Or have they chosen and proclaimed other gods beside Him?
Say! "Bring me the proof (of their godhead). This (the qur'an) is the Reminder of those with me and those before me." But most of them do not know the Truth, so they are averse. And We sent no messenger before you but that We inspired him to say, "There is no God but Me (Allah), so worship Me."
And they say, "The Beneficent has taken unto Himself a son. Be He glorified (far above such a thing)! Nay, but those whom they call the sons are but honored slaves. They speak not until He has spoken, and they act by His command.
He knows what is before them and behind them, and they cannot intercede except for those whom He accepts. And they quake in awe of Him. And if one were to say, "Lo! I am a God beside Him," that one We would repay with hell. Thus do We repay the wrongdoers.
Surah 21, an nabiyya, v. 21-28

Allah has not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with Him; else would each God have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would have assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege.
Surah 23, al mu'minun, v. 91



…. sent to deliver a message to mankind
(as all PROPHETS)

He sends down the angels with the spirit of His command unto whom He wills of His bondmen, saying, "Warn mankind that there is no God save Me, so keep your Duty unto Me."
Surah 16 (al nahl) v. 2

And verily we have raised in every nation a messenger, proclaiming, "Serve Allah and shun false Gods!" Then some there were of them whom Allah guided (rightly), but there were others upon whom error had (just) hold. But travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers.
Surah 16 (al nahl) v. 36.



and to take our sins to the cross with him,
Jesus was taken up to Allah alive – and never was hung up on a stake to be shamed and rejected by Allah.


"If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,
Deuteronomy 21:22

his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
Deuteronomy 21:23


as we are all sinners and deserve to go to the lake of fire;
No. We chose the way by our own free will. Either to the fire whose fuel is men and stones by choosing association (making Allah a partner with others), or to Paradise by choosing Tauheed (averring and witnessing Allah's singularity) as our belief. Those who associate partners deserve and will never get out of the fire. Those who do not, and aver the opposite, may avoid the fire altogether by His infinite mercy.

Verily! Allah does not forgive that a partner should be ascribed to Him. He forgives all save such to whom He will. Whosoever ascribes partners to Allah, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.

Verily! Allah does not pardon that partners should be ascribed unto Him. He pardons all save such to whom he wills. Whosoever ascribes partners unto Allah has wandered far astray.
Surah 4, an-nissa, vs. 48 & 116

Do the disbelievers reckon that they can choose My bondmen as protecting friends beside Me? Verily! We have prepared hell as a welcome to the disbelievers. Say! "Shall We inform you who will be the greatest losers by their works? Those whose efforts go astray in the life of the world and yet they reckon they are doing good work?"

Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of our Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefore their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them. That is their reward; hell, because they disbelieved and made a jest of Our revelations and Our messengers.
Surah 18, Al Kahf, v. 101-104



but because God loved us so much and he knew the laws were to hard for most people to live by,
What is so difficult? Why do you make mountains out of molehills? Allah does not want to make things difficult for us! He wants to make things easy. That is why His Law is so easy to live by, if your heart is pure.

O you who believe! When you rise up for prayer, wash your face, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads, and wash for feet up to the ankles. And if you are unclean, purify yourselves. And if you are sick, or on a journey, or have just passed waste, or you have had (sexual) contact (with women) and you cannot find water (easily), then go to high, clean ground and rub your hands and faces with some of it (dust/earth). Allah would not place a burden upon you, but He would purify you and perfect His grace on you, that you may give thanks.
Surah 5, Al Maidah, v. 6


(and God won't take back what he had already said in the laws);
Well, he certainly doesn't change the basics, if that is what you mean. But the details? In Christian scriptures you need but read the sermon on the mount/plain to see how Allah modifies codes to live and worship according to the needs of the people. However, this does not entail the wholesale scrapping of the Taurat, as your master (St.) Paul advocates (Galatians, Corinthians, Romans, Acts).

so Jesus was born to Mary in the flesh: (but was the word in spirit)
Yes. So?

so he could die the human death thereby taking our sins with him to the cross,
According to (Satan) Saul.

thereby opening a new door for us to enter through to make it to heaven with our father God who loves all of us.
So you Christians desperately hope.

And as far as God having only one son; We are all his children through Jesus Christ; Lets put it this way; God planted his seed in this human race with giving us Jesus as the seed; and as seeds go, you plant one seed, a tree grows; from the tree; many seeds drop to the ground and they too begins to grow; and it keeps going on and on, until the whole earth is Full of the goodness of the original tree that grew from the ONLY SEED GOD PUT HERE, so we are all part of that seed.
Well, that does compress a huge amount of knowledge into one (parallel) parable. Read carefully the parables concerning the seed in the gospels, you'll find it is talking about messages (and their reception). So the parallels you are drawing come from your own (inspired?) mind. Who else, as people, are considered 'seeds'. Well, Abraham, for one (whose seed would be multiplied through Ishmael) and Aaron, for another (from whose seed descended Mary), and David – the 'father' of modern Israel.

Now about 3 being a magic #; There is no magic to it, as magic is from Satan,
Magic was given to mankind by angels from Allah – not from Satan, to test mankind. And many fell into error. Temptation to use Magic is, of course, a thing from the evil of our ownselves and the satan which suggests it, and from the whispers of Shaitaan – Iblees.

And when there comes unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who received the scripture fling the scripture of Allah behind their backs, as if the knew (it) not, and follow what devils falsely related against the kingdom of Solomon.
Solomon disbelieved not, but the devils disbelieved, teaching mankind magic and that which was revealed to the two angels in Babel, Harut and Marut. Nor did the two angels teach it (magic) to anyone until they had said: "we are only temptation, therefore disbelieve not (in the guidance of Allah)." And from these two (angels) people learn that by which they can cause division between a man and his wife …… he who traffics therein will have no good portion of the Hereafter, and surely evil is the price for which they sell their souls, if they but knew.
Surah 2, al baqara, v. 100-101


But 3 IS a Holy #; The Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost, and those 3 are ONE, and that One is GOD.
Again, you fall into error and wander blindly.

Of course God does not live like a human, eat, sleep, or go to the toilet, and cannot be killed by anything, That's just plain sarcastic to say.
Of course it is. I am glad you see how stupid it is to say a man is Allah.

Jesus however was born to Mary in the flesh; but as I said before; (He was the WORD in spirit,) as GOD is Spirit.
Are you saying Jesus was a spirit? Even 'after' his so called death (and so called resurrection) he was at pains to eat and drink and have his disciples touch him to convince them he was flesh, and alive (when they thought him dead and crucified).

You say how can I worship a person when he can't even save himself. I never did worship Flesh as all flesh dies;
I am sure my brothers and sisters are as glad to hear that as I am.

I only worship the spirit,
Which is where you err, in associating partners with Allah.

which by the way; has never been killed, in fact he is still alive and doing very well, and will be returning very soon to take us all (who believe in him) home.
We know. And far better than you.

Because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calaumney.
And because of their saying, "we killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, Allah's messenger."

But they slew him not, nor crucified (him), but it appeared so unto them. And lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof. They have no knowledge about it save in pursuit of conjecture. For certainty, they did not kill him.
But Allah took him up unto Himself alive. And Allah is ever Mighty and Wise. And there is not one of the people of the scripture but will believe in him (Jesus) before his death, and on the day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them.

Because of their wrongdoing, we forbade the Jews good things which were before made lawful to them, and because of their hindering on Allah's way, and of their taking of usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring of peoples wealth by false pretences.
We have prepared for those of them that disbelieve a painful doom.
Surah 4, an-nissa, 155-160

Jamila

eve
01-09-02, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
Dear Eve,

So Jesus wasn't human?

Eve replies;

Of course he was human as he was flesh; BUT his spirit was the spirit of truth, which is the WORD, from the very beginning.
______________________________________

So Jesus is just the physical representation of the spirit of God?

EVE replies;

yep, You got it.
______________________________________

"BEGOTTEN, [b]not made ?????"

Eve replies;

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that (*he gave*) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God (*sent*) not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but (*he that believeth not*) is condemned already, because he (*hath not believed in the name*) of the only (*begotten*) Son of God.

BEGOTTEN = A PAST participle of beget.

Past Participle = indicates time gone by; or a former action or condition.
As God Sent Jesus who was already with him.

(* he gave*)= Not made.

(* sent*) = Jesus was already with GOD, as part of him, as any son is part of their father.

All PROPHETS were (*CALLED*) acording to GOD' will.

EVE......
MORE LATER; NO TIME RIGHT NOW.

kumayl
02-09-02, 09:15 PM
hey for this

EITHER U GUYZ DO UR RESEARCH OR WRITE UR OWN STORY

KUMAYL

3aber sabeel
02-09-02, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by eve

and by the way; Jesus Christ is the SON of God;
The Father; The Word; and The Holy Ghost, all Equal== ONE GOD!
Jesus being the WORD.



Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and would believe in doctrines made not by God but by man: Matthew 15:9: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

(According to our belief, all doctrines of modern Christianity are made by men: the Trinity, the divine sonship of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus Christ, and the doctrines Original Sin and Atonement)

The following points prove that The Father, the Holy Ghost and the word does not equal to ONE GOD:

1. From Jesus' own sayings, recorded in the New Testament, it is clear that he never claimed divinity or identity with God: "I do nothing of myself" (John 8:28); "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28; "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12: 29); "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34); and "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46); and "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (Mark 13:32). Jesus was called a prophet, a teacher from God, His servant, the Messiah, and later was escalated to the Son of God, and then to God Himself.

2. Jesus slept while God never sleeps: Psalms 121:4: "Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep."

3. God should be powerful‹but how could people spit on him and crucify him as the Bible alleges?

How could Jesus be God if he worshipped God as any other mortal: Luke 5:16: "And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and prayed."

4. Jesus was tempted by Satan for forty days (Luke 4:1-13) , but in James 1:13 it is said: "... for God cannot be tempted with evil ..." How can Jesus be God, then? We can rationalize further and further.

Therefore, its more like: '1+1+1=3'

A holy scripture should not contain contradictions. If there are two conflicting verses, then only one can be true or both are wrong, for both cannot be correct.

According to John 1:1 Jesus is God. Then how many Gods are there? Two at least.

This contradicts many passages in the Bible: Deuteronomy 4:39: "... that the Lord He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else"; Deuteronomy 6:4: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord", (Isaiah 43:10-11): "... that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no savior"; (Isaiah 44:6): "Thus saith the Lord ... I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God"; (Isaiah 45:18): "For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else."

From Isaiah 45:18 we can conclude that God alone was the Creator and that no one else, not even Jesus, participated in the creation.

You should also read Deuteronomy 4:35; Exodus 8:10; II Samuel 7:22; I Kings 8:23; I Chronicles 17:20; Psalms 86:8, 89:6 and 113:5; Hosea 13:4; and Zechariah 14:9.

In the NT:

In Mark 12:29, where it is recorded that Jesus himself said: "And Jesus answered him: 'The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord."'

I Corinthians 8:4: "... we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one"; (I Timothy 2:5): "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Look at the expression "the man Christ Jesus."

Now you can either say that John 1:1 is right and all these other verses are wrong, or vice versa.

Peace,
3aber sabeel

jamila
03-09-02, 08:10 AM
Dear Eve,
So Jesus wasn't human?
Eve replies;
Of course he was human as he was flesh; BUT his spirit was the spirit of truth, which is the WORD, from the very beginning.
______________________________________
So Jesus is just the physical representation of the spirit of God?
Eve replies;
yep, You got it.
______________________________________

So Jesus the man and Jesus the spirit were separate beings? Jesus is half God half Man? Boy! Do I wish you would make sense!!



"BEGOTTEN, not made ?????"
Eve replies;
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that (*he gave*) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God (*sent*) not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but (*he that believeth not*) is condemned already, because he (*hath not believed in the name*) of the only (*begotten*) Son of God.

BEGOTTEN = A PAST participle of beget.
Past Participle = indicates time gone by; or a former action or condition.
As God Sent Jesus who was already with him.
(* he gave*)= Not made.
(* sent*) = Jesus was already with GOD, as part of him, as any son is part of their father.

1. I am not contrasting being given with being made, but being begotten with being made. It is you Christians that insist Jesus was not made, but begotten – I certainly don't partake of that opinion.
Muslims do not cavil at the words 'sent' and 'gave'. We believe that Jesus was both sent and given (and made, too).

2. Begotten is the past PARTICIPLE of beget, PAST simple = BEGAT (arch) or BEGOT.
The PAST PARTICIPLE is used in conjunction with the auxiliary verb 'to HAVE' in active tenses ('have been' in passive tenses) to indicate the PERFECT aspect of a verb (the joining of actions and events from 2 times, past and present, as significant to the moment and/or expressing unfinished actions or states which began in the past and may continue into the future).

The PAST PARTICIPLE is also used to describe the state of an action or a noun as BEING ACTED ON or HAVING BEEN ACTED ON (the action or noun being PASSIVE)

In other words, when Jesus is described as BEGOTTEN, he is the passive OBJECT of an active AGENT. So Christians are saying Jesus is an OBJECT, and in the same breath, that he is GOD. So the concept of Jesus's Godhead is as and OBJECT effected by an AGENT. In other words, he is not a CAUSE, but an EFFECT.

Can GOD be effected? Is He an object? Allahu asSamadde! I abhor and denounce such a concept. He does as He wills, and it is we who rely on Him.

3. Beget has two meanings: The first is to PROCREATE, to FATHER or to SIRE (to impregnate a women, the result of which is born [not miscarried]). The second meaning is to produce as an EFFECT, or CAUSE something to be, or to RESULT in a thing from a source.

The Christians choose the first meaning, (glory be to Allah, far above the imputation they assign Him is He) and so call Jesus THE SON of God.
The Muslims would certainly agree to the second meaning. In either case, the word indicates that Jesus come from a source and is not the source himself.
If he is a result or effect, he cannot be co-existent with the Agent before the event. Really, how blind can you be?


Eve replies;
All PROPHETS were (*CALLED*) according to GOD's will.
Scriptual proof, please!

Jamila :confused:

illusionz
18-09-02, 08:47 PM
From wat i knw, Aisha (ra) was 6 when she married the prophet(saw) , 9 when she moved in wit him , n 18 when the prophet(saw) passed away.

abaidullah
20-09-02, 05:38 PM
Assalamoalikum,
To the best of my knowledge,Ayisha (R.A) was kid when married to the prophet Mohammad (S.A.W) and she was playing with the dolls at that time.There are numourous authentic referances about this and So i fully agree with illusionz .But i do say that this type of discussion is wastage of time and resources.

Mujahid
21-09-02, 11:31 AM
Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

The claim that Aisha was 19 years old when she married the prophet (saw) is contradictory to many authentic hadith:

Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 274:
Narrated Aisha:

.....................That night I kept on weeping the whole night till the morning. My tears never stopped, nor did I sleep, and morning broke while I was still weeping, Allah's Apostle called 'Ali bin Abi Talib and Usama bin Zaid when the Divine Inspiration delayed, in order to consult them as to the idea of divorcing his wife. Usama bin Zaid told Allah's Apostle of what he knew about the innocence of his wife and of his affection he kept for her. He said, "O Allah's Apostle! She is your wife, and we do not know anything about her except good." But 'Ali bin Abi Talib said, "O Allah's Apostle! Allah does not impose restrictions on you; and there are plenty of women other than her. If you however, ask (her) slave girl, she will tell you the truth." 'Aisha added: So Allah's Apostle called for Barira and said, "O Barira! Did you ever see anything which might have aroused your suspicion? (as regards Aisha). Barira said, "By Allah Who has sent you with the truth, I have never seen anything regarding Aisha which I would blame her for except that she is a girl of immature age who sometimes sleeps and leaves the dough of her family unprotected so that the domestic goats come and eat it." ......................



Volume 9, Book 92, Number 462:
Narrated 'Aisha:

After the slanderers had given a forged statement against her, Allah's Apostle called 'Ali bin Abi Talib and Usama bin Zaid when the Divine Inspiration was delayed. He wanted to ask them and consult them about the question of divorcing me. Usama gave his evidence that was based on what he knew about my innocence, but 'Ali said, "Allah has not put restrictions on you and there are many women other than her. Furthermore you may ask the slave girl who will tell you the truth." So the Prophet asked Barira (my salve girl), "Have you seen anything that may arouse your suspicion?" She replied, "I have not seen anything more than that she is a little girl who sleeps, leaving the dough of her family (unguarded) that the domestic goats come and eat it." Then the Prophet stood on the pulpit and said, "O Muslims! Who will help me against the man who has harmed me by slandering my wife? By Allah, I know nothing about my family except good." The narrator added: Then the Prophet mentioned the innocence of 'Aisha. (See Hadith No. 274, Vol. 6)


The hadith is narrated many times, also it is in Sahih Muslim. This was when people made false rumors about Aisha while she was married to the prophet (saw). It says that she was a little girl of immature age, this would be highly improbable if she was 19 years of age. Mind you this is also some time after their marriage, so she is older than 19 years.

Salam.

muawiyah
21-09-02, 07:52 PM
polemic mujahid, you lack the moral right to machevillianly use our works or participate in this thread. with regards to attribution of being of immature age or little girl who sleeps, this could indicate that Ayesha did have some childhish characteristics inspite of being in her late teens. This feature is very frequent in women. One can find women at ages of early 20s still having some characteristics of their childhood. I have women relatives who still enjoy to play games and keep dolls although they are married and are not of childhood age,

Mujahid
23-09-02, 04:49 AM
I simply mentioned it was awkward.

You should refrain from insults, and practise the sunnah.

Salam alaikum.

eve
26-09-02, 06:45 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
[B]So Jesus the man and Jesus the spirit were separate beings? Jesus is half God half Man? Boy! Do I wish you would make sense!!

EVE replies;
Are you saying that all men and women are only a half of a person as we all are flesh and Spirit? Jesus's Spirit IS God but his flesh was human, You seem to always forget that God can do, Be anything he wants, and so he chose to dwell in a human body he chose to called Jesus.
__________________________________________

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that (*he gave*) his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Jamila now that your English lesson is over let me ask you something;
How can anyone GIVE anything to anyone IF they don't have it themselves to GIVE? You see GOD had the Spirit of Jesus with him already as part of himself, thats why its important to see the difference between being made, and being GIVEN; Thats why Jesus is referred to as the SON of GOD in the flesh, because he WAS and IS part of God, as all children are referred to as The Child of so and so because they are part of whoever it is.

EVE......

jamila
26-09-02, 07:18 AM
Eve,
Allah is the owner and creator and sustainer of everything. He is Rich, and we have nothing. Even our free will is GIVEN to us. Of course Allah gave Jesus to the world. :) He owns him as he owns all his slaves. In the same way, HE TOOK HIM BACK. Everything returns to Him in the End. And we will all end up before Him, hoping for Jannah and fearing the Hellfire so visible to us on that Day. Do you believe in That Day? Do you fear being Judged? Do you hope your worship is enough to obtain access to forgiveness?

Reading the blythe way you embrace Shirk, I can't help feeling you don't think That Day is anything to be feared, or that your ffate may hang on what and how you worship.

Allah is the giver and maker of everything. If you choose to worship what He made, that's your choice. Don't try and drag me along with you to the destination whose fuel is men and stones.

Jamila :(

jamila
26-09-02, 07:34 AM
Originally posted by eve
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
So Jesus the man and Jesus the spirit were separate beings? Jesus is half God half Man? Boy! Do I wish you would make sense!!

EVE replies;
Are you saying that all men and women are only a half of a person as we all are flesh and Spirit? Jesus's Spirit IS God but his flesh was human, You seem to always forget that God can do, Be anything he wants, and so he chose to dwell in a human body he chose to called Jesus.
[/B]

Let me get this straight! Are you equating God with the soul of a man (or woman)? Our souls were created, just like our bodies. Once again yiou have fallen into the trap of associating partners with Allah. You are comparing His being as like that of a created soul! EstaghfurAllah! Eve! Your creator loves you and wants you to draw near, yet you keep distancing yourself! Repent and believe! I wish to give you the plain warning of all the prophets, including Jesus. [There is One God; and there is none Other but He. (Mark 12:32)]

God is the only one worthy of being worshipped, and shun all taghut (things worshipped other than Allah).



Jamila !

eve
27-09-02, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by jamila
Let me get this straight! Are you equating God with the soul of a man (or woman)? Our souls were created, just like our bodies. Once again yiou have fallen into the trap of associating partners with Allah. You are comparing His being as like that of a created soul! EstaghfurAllah! Eve! Your creator loves you and wants you to draw near, yet you keep distancing yourself! Repent and believe! I wish to give you the plain warning of all the prophets, including Jesus. [There is One God; and there is none Other but He. (Mark 12:32)]

God is the only one worthy of being worshipped, and shun all taghut (things worshipped other than Allah).



Jamila !


Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in (*our image*), (*after our likeness:*)
27 (*So God created man in his own image*), (*in the image of God created he him*); male and female created he them.

Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are right Jamila; God did create our SOUL ( Spirit );
(*IN THEIR IMAGE*) and after (*THEIR LIKENESS*), and our bodies were Made from the dust of the ground;

Just another scripture that proves that GOD is (*The Father*);

(*The Word*) and (*The Holy Ghost*) as God himself states

OUR IMAGE, OUR LIKENESS, and then he says he created man in

(*HIS OWN IMAGE*); which means, the three equals ONE GOD...

So see your right again; There Is ONLY ONE GOD, Whom I do worship.

EVE......

eve
27-09-02, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by jamila
Eve,
Allah is the owner and creator and sustainer of everything. He is Rich, and we have nothing. Even our free will is GIVEN to us. Of course Allah gave Jesus to the world. :) He owns him as he owns all his slaves. In the same way, HE TOOK HIM BACK. Everything returns to Him in the End. And we will all end up before Him, hoping for Jannah and fearing the Hellfire so visible to us on that Day. Do you believe in That Day? Do you fear being Judged? Do you hope your worship is enough to obtain access to forgiveness?

Reading the blythe way you embrace Shirk, I can't help feeling you don't think That Day is anything to be feared, or that your ffate may hang on what and how you worship.

Allah is the giver and maker of everything. If you choose to worship what He made, that's your choice. Don't try and drag me along with you to the destination whose fuel is men and stones.

Jamila :(


Jamila, I don't worship what God made; I worship who he is; The father, the word, and the Holy Ghost, who all equal ONE GOD.
There was a time I feared death, as I didn't know where I would be going. But once I made a commitment to God through the Blood of Jesus Christ, to live for him who died for me; the Holy Ghost came upon me and comforted me, just like how Jesus promised he would not leave me comfortless, but because I know Jesus died for my sins, I can ask forgiveness, and with confidence and the assurance from the Holy Spirit, I know that I have been forgiven. I Do Love God and fear his wrath enough to live for him as much as I can as I am only human.

Jamila I know you were a Catholic, and I know they are suppose to be considered a Christian religion; but being raised around them since I was a child, I know that they don't believe as the Protestant Christians do; we try to live like Jesus taught;

Matthew 25
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
(*Inasmuch as ye have done it unto "one of the least" of these my brethren*),
(*ye have done it unto me.*)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

May I suggest to you that BECAUSE the Bible was good enough for Jesus to quote from, that you give it a second chance, and even find a good Protestant church in your area, and go see how it is. If your really convinced that the Quran is The True Words from God, then you won't have anything to worry about. Right?
But always keep in mind that the O.T. Bible that Jesus quoted from; IS still the same one we have today. If your worried about it being corrupt; Read the Hebrew OT. Bible, that has NOT been changed since before Jesus read it.
By the way to answer your question; Do I fear being judged?
No is my answer; because once my sins are forgiven; they are taken out of the book of judgement that will be read that day. That is why Jesus came, as we are all sinners and without him, we would all be going to the lake of fire. So I hold Jesus to his words; If I BELIEVE in him, TRUST him, Obey the commandments; and ask for forgiveness for my sins in Jesus name; all will be forgiven, Then Jesus will say to me as Matthew 25:34 does.

Eve.....

Sultan
27-09-02, 11:24 PM
hmmmm

Protestants and catholics are the same to me.

Both are trinitarians.

I have experienced both protestantism and catholicism.

Both suck!

:p

doda
27-09-02, 11:46 PM
I just wanted to share this interesting piece of information...

Dr. Rashid bin Issa, a North African expert on religious issues, said on a program screened by an Arab channel, the following:

A Catholic newspaper published in France asked it's readers whether they believed in the concept of the trinity. [B]50% SAID NO.

AbuMubarak
28-09-02, 03:29 AM
http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm


The marriage of the Prophet Muhammad to 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr when she was at quite a young age has been the focus of quite a bit of criticism in the West. Unfortunately, in this Neo-Colonialist Age of smart bombs, MTV, CNN and the Big Mac, some of those who profess to be Muslims have themselves become critics. Many Muslims, faced with the juggernaut of allegedly "universal" Western liberal values that have permeated almost everyone around them, sheepishly avoid discussion of such "embarrassing" Islamic issues. It is a keenly true observation that even though the European powers have pulled their colonial armies out of Muslim lands and granted them "independence", an even worse plague continues. This curse is "Colonialism of the Mind" and it is more dangerous since it is much more subtle. Insha'llah, this article will be a contribution to making both Muslims and non-Muslims aware of not only the objective facts regarding the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah, but how to understand it in light of Islam and life in the "modern" world.
Regrettably, for those of us trying to spread the truth of Islam in the West, we often have to agree with the Orientalist W. Montgomery Watt when he wrote: "Of all the world's great men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad."1 But here, for a change, were are dealing with something that is an authentic part of Islamic history, not an apocryphal or fabricated event that Westerners have been duped into believing is authentic, such as the so-called "Satanic Verses" incident. That a man in his fifties would marry such a young girl—especially a man who is supposed to be a living example of piety—is not only difficult for many "modern" Westerners to come to terms with, but it has even gone so far as to stir up disgusting "sexual misconduct" charges amongst them. In the face of such criticism, Muslims have not always reacted well. In the past century, when so many Muslims were so "Westoxicated" and ready to monkey Europeans in almost anything, the usual reaction was to deny the sources that reported the alleged "embarrassing problem". To Muslim "modernists", who argued that ONLY a legal ruling found in the Qur'an was Islamically valid, brushing aside this aspect of the Prophet's life was rather easy. They simply denied that it had occurred and attacked the sources which reported it. Fortunately for Muslims, the apologetics of these "Uncle Toms of Islam" has faded into the periphery to a large extent. However, there are still many Muslims out there who try to get around what they see as a problem by ignoring authentic Islamic sources while claiming to be followers of the Ahl as-Sunnah. (which basically means "orthodox Sunni" Muslims, for those unfamiliar Islamic terminology). Many other Muslims possibly wonder whether the story is authentic and how to understand it if it is.



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THE ISLAMIC EVIDENCE OF 'AISHAH'S AGE

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Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which 'Aishah married the Prophet is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of BOTH the Qur'an and the Sunnah - and the Qur'an tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah and/or The Sunnah and Its Position in Islamic Law. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari and three ahadith in Saheeh Muslim which clearly state that 'Aishah was "nine years old" at the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet . These ahadith, with only slight variation, read as follows:

'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)
Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahadith in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when 'Aishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old". Additionally, a hadeeth with basically the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abu Dawood. Needless to say, this evidence is—Islamically speaking—overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.
This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about 'Aishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push 'Aishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet . It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadeeth collections of Imams al-Bukhari and Muslim! Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that 'Aishah's age was "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage. This source is "The Biographies of Prominent Muslims" which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .



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THE PROPHET'S MARRIAGES IN PERSPECTIVE

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To put all of this in perspective—hopefully without undue apologetics—the first thing that one should be aware of is that 'Aishah was the third wife of the Prophet , not the first. Prior to this, the Prophet's first and only wife for twenty-four years was Khadijah bint al-Khuwaylid, who was about nineteen years older than him. He married Khadijah when she was forty and he was twenty-one—which might be called the years of a male's "sexual prime"—and stayed married ONLY to her until her death. Just after Khadijah's death, when he was round forty-six years old, the Prophet married his second wife Sawdah bint Zam'ah. It was after this second marriage that the Prophet became betrothed to 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her. She was the daughter of Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet's closest friends and devoted followers. Abu Bakr, may God be pleased with him, was one of the earliest converts to Islam and hoped to solidify the deep love that existed between himself and the Prophet by uniting their families in marriage. The betrothal of Abu Bakr's daughter 'Aishah to Muhammad , took place in the eleventh year of Muhammad's prophethood, which was about a year after he had married Sawdah bint Zam'ah and before he made his hijra (migration) to al-Madinah (Yathrib). As mentioned above, the marriage with 'Aishah bint Abu Bakr was consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra from Makkah to al-Medinah. At the time of his marriage to ''Aishah, the Prophet was over fifty years old.

It should be noted that the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah was an exceedingly happy one for both parties, as the hadeeth literature attests. 'Aishah, may God be please with her, was his favourite wife and the only virgin that he ever married. After emigrating to al-Madinah, Muhammad married numerous other wives, eventually totalling fifteen in his lifetime. Even though we do not have time to go into the details of each one of them here, each of these marriages was done either for political reasons, to strengthen the ties of kinship or to help a woman in need. Quite a few of the wives were widows, older women or had been abandoned and thus were in need of a home. Additionally, it should be mentioned that the same collection of Muslim hadeeth literature that tells us that 'Aishah was only nine years old at the time of the marriage tells us that the marriage was Divinely ordained:

Narrated 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her: The Messenger of God said (to me): "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from God, He will cause it to come true.'" (Saheeh Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)
Thus like everything that the Prophet did, there was wisdom behind it and lessons to be learned from it. The wisdom behind such incidents provides us guidance on the basis of human morality, exposes the double standards of misguided hypocrites from other religions that criticize Islam and much more. But more on that subject below. . .


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CRITICISM ADDRESSED AND ENTERTAINED

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Myself and many other Muslims should no longer be surprised by the double standards that Christians display when they criticize the conduct of Prophet Muhammad , since we've heard it for so long. To have an atheist, agnostic—or anyone else who does not believe in a Divinely revealed basis for morality—criticize something that is "politically incorrect" by today's moral standards comes as no surprise. Such people will always find something to criticize, since they simply have a bone to pick with "religion" in general. All of this "absolute morality" talk gets in the way of them having a good time, so they want to mock it, discredit it and do away with it. The criticism of Christians, however, is another matter. While it is true that Christians speak out against the "moral relativity" which is spreading amongst the increasingly secular society today, they too are unconscious victims of it. The values of most Christians today come from the humanist values of Western Europe (or, at a minimum, are heavily influenced by them). Their values DO NOT come straight out of the Bible—in theory or in practice—regardless of what they may claim. That Christians today try to take credit for the so-called "Freedom", "Human Rights", "Democracy" and "Women's Rights" in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me. One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is, at its core, both selfish and non-universal. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into "moral relativism" without even realizing it.

According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society. As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come. Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, and other information that we will provide below, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians to criticise the Prophet's marriage to 'Aishah at such a young age. In case Christian readers are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married:

Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old. I live in country where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist". So even though Christians might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today—whether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion—they too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism". Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who do not believe in a Divine basis for morality, but they're giving in nonetheless.
Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. This was the case in Biblical times, as we will discuss below, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world. As the ahadith about 'Aishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty is a biological sign which shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this? Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus grew up in). The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time which a marriage can be consummated is at the onset of sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today—it is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new!
The criticism of Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah is something relatively new in that it grew up out of the values of "Post Enlightenment" Europe. This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong. It is interesting to note that Christians from a very early time criticized (again hypocritically) the Prophet's practice of polygamy, but not the marriage to 'Aishah. Certainly, those from a Middle Eastern Semitic background would not have found anything to criticize, since nothing abnormal or immoral took place. It was European Christians who began to criticize Muhammad on this point, not ones who were in touch with their Semitic roots.
It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions. It should also be mentioned that in Islam, it is unlawful to force someone to marry someone that they do not want to marry. The evidence shows that 'Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad was one which both parties and their families agreed upon. Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.
None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to 'Aishah's young age. On the contrary, the marriage of 'Aishah to the Prophet was encouraged by 'Aishah's father, Abu Bakr, and was welcomed by the community at large. It is reported that women who wanted to help the Prophet , such as Khawlah bint al-Hakeem, encouraged him to marry the young 'Aishah. Due to the Semitic culture in which they lived, they certainly saw nothing wrong with such a marriage.
Society's ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called "modern" and "civilized" West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur'anic times. Unfortunately, many of us carry the baggage of "romantic love" and ideas about sex that have managed to poison our minds since the Europeans (and their ideas) came to dominate the globe. These ideas have not only penetrated into the minds of Muslims, but actually permeate many of them. The European colonial powers have pulled out of almost all Muslim lands, but the colonization of the minds continues! As we mentioned above, the sad part is that most people do not even realize that they are under such un-Godly influences. Just to reference the way things have changed, a statement in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica makes it clear that values regarding the proper age of marriage have been changing over the years: ". . . in the United States and parts of Europe the association of adult status with sexual maturity as expressed in the term puberty rites has been unwelcome".2
The significance that sex and sexuality are thought to play in human psychology has its roots in Freudian thought. Even though many of Freud's ideas are being heavily challenged today, many of his ideas still play a role in the thinking of many people. Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) taught that humans are basically "sexual beings" whose childhood sexual urges are the key to understanding their behaviour. He developed the methodology of psychoanalysis and his ideas on sex, repressed guilt and sexuality, the subconscious sex drive, the Oedipus complex and other ideas have come to almost haunt the Western view of sexuality (almost as much as the repressive views of the Roman Catholic Church). Needless to say, Freud's ideas have been criticized by believing Jews, Christians and Muslims since they basically deny human moral responsibility. In Freud's view of things, human beings are prisoners to the effects of unconscious forces and their sex drive. Such ideas are always welcomed by "liberals", "humanists" and others like them. The point of all this in regards to young marriage, however, might be less clear. What needs to be pointed out is the contradictory "modern" Western view of sexuality. They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it's an age old custom. However, they have junior high schools where sex education is taught and a society where sexually permiscuous "dating" is considered the norm. Sometime sex is simply a natural pleasure to be enjoyed, but at other times it is a psychological demon of far reaching consequences. In short, everything from their private lives to their court systems, have fallen victim to the moral relativity of the psychiatrists and psychologists. The attitude that any experience in life can be seen as some sort of "trauma" is very widespread. Many people go through life constantly obsessed about what sort of "complex" they may be suffering from due to experiences they've had in their relatively normal life. The morality which is produced by such attitudes all but does away with human responsibility. People who are guilty of serious crimes, instead of being held responsible for their actions, are themselves considered "victims", since they are only doing what their psychological makeup causes them to do.


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PUBERTY = MATURITY = MARRIAGE

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The above points having been presented, some additional details on a few of them is worthwhile. An interesting article on the age at which people married in Biblical times is Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs, by Jim West, ThD—a Baptist minister. This article states that:

"The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line;"
This is just one reference to the fact that the onset of puberty was considered the age at which young people could marry. That people in Biblical times married at an early age is widely endorsed. While discussing the meaning of the word 'almah, which is the Hebrew word for "young woman" or "adolescent female", Gerald Segal says:

"It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age".3
In spite of its somewhat arrogant Western talk of "primitive cultures", An Overview of the World's Religions makes it clear that puberty is an age old symbol of adulthood:

"Almost all primitive cultures pay attention to puberty and marriage rituals, although there is a general tendency to pay more attention to the puberty rites of males than of females. Because puberty and marriage symbolize the fact that children are acquiring adult roles, most primitive cultures consider the rituals surrounding these events very important. Puberty rituals are often accompanied with ceremonial circumcision or some other operation on the male genitals. Female circumcision is less common, although it occurs in several cultures. Female puberty rites are more often related to the commencement of the menstrual cycle in young girls."
Some female authors agree:
"Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture." (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)
"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood (From the Women's Resource Center)

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says: ". . . women marry soon after puberty"4. The previous quotations, and plenty of others which were not used, should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.
It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e. with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!). Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children—"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live for as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.



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THE AGE OF PUBERTY

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Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place. This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad and 'Aishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty. However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle, 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi says:

Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the book Woman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5 Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred. Marie Espino has summarised some of these data as follows: (a) The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone; (b) The average age varies widely and it ay be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.6
Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says: "The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others." An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:
"During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body."
Many will readily agree with the information above, but still may harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of 'Aishah and the Prophet was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadeeth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:
"When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse" 7


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MORE WISDOM BEHIND IT

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In his comments on the ahadith in Sahih Muslim which mention 'Aishah's young marriage to the Prophet , 'Abdul-Hamid Siddiqi shows points three other reasons for this marriage:

'Aishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad at an early age allowed her to be an eye witness to the personal details of his life and carry them on the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet , the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual, teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities helped support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. 'Aishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'an, an authority on hadeeth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahadith that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad .
At that time, this marriage refuted the notion that a man could not marry the daughter of a man who he had declared to be his "brother" (even in the religious sense). Since the Prophet and Abu Bakr had declared each other to be "brothers", this notion was done away with. This is demonstrated in the following hadeeth:
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aishah's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said, "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in God's religion and His Book, but she ('Aishah) is lawful for me to marry." (Saheeh al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18)
The marriage did away with the pagan Arab superstition that it was a bad omen to be married in the month of Shawwal. They thought that the month carried this omen since the word Shawwal was derived from Shaala, which itself was believed to carry a bad omen. The authentic ahadith indicate that the Prophet and 'Aishah were married in this lunar month.


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NOT MUCH ADO BACK THEN

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Above, we established that fact that getting married at puberty was an accepted practice amongst not only today's "primitive cultures", but specifically amongst the Semitic (i.e. Hebrew, Arab, Syriac, etc.) peoples of the Middle East. In order to provide additional proof that Muhammad's marriage to 'Aishah did not raise any eyebrows at that time, I here submit quotations from two Western female scholars who have studied Islam in detail:

"It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place. According to some versions, it was in the month of Shawwal of the Year 1, that is, some seven or eight months after the arrival at Medina; but, according to others, it was not until after the Battle of Badr, that is, in Shawwal of the second year of the Hijrah. In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play."8
In the above quotation, the sources which are given for the latter date are "Nawawi" and "Tabari". Both Imams al-Nawawi and al-Tabari were great Muslim scholars, but their works contain material that is less than authentic by Islamic standards, which is probably the reason over her questioning which date is authentic. This is all beside the point, since we've already shown that authentic Islamic sources state that 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her, was "nine years old". The main point to note is that in "no version" was any comment made on their age difference or on 'Aishah's young age. Why? Such an early marriage was normal in all Semitic societies - such as the ones that Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad grew up in!
Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add: "Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty".9 This further establishes that the marriage took place at puberty and that, as such, no eyebrows were raised. "Tabari", it should be mentioned, refers to Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Jareer al-Tabari (225-310 AH / 839-923 CE), who was a great Muslim scholar who is well known in the West for his Qur'anic commentary and history of the world.

It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of 'Aishah and Muhammad took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time. This is no surprise, since anyone who studies the Muslim sources and Semitic culture would be forced to come to the same conclusion, since it is simply a historical fact. It should be pointed out that both of the above quoted female authors do not hesitate to misrepresent Islam (intentionally or unintentionally) in their other writings. Suffice it to say that if there was some other "damaging" information available, they would not hesistate to bring it to light. Nabia Abbott, who has done some useful research on Islam in some areas, was basically an "Orientalist" in the classic sense. Her book which was quoted above, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, is actually nothing but a disgusting second-guessing of 'Aishah's life. If a book with a similar mix of speculation and inauthentic sources were written about someone of significance in the West, it certainly would not be sitting on scholarly bookshelves. It's has long been established that Orientalists with a bone to pick with Islam liked to decide on the authenticity of a story based on their pre-conceived notions. If an inauthentic story seemed to belittle the Prophet of Islam, it became oft quoted. However, any authentic material that contradicted their theories was simply ignored. It's analogous to writing a historical biography of Jesus and using quotations from apocryphal gospels to override the Canonical ones whenever whimsically deemed appropriate. This is how Orientalists and Christian missionaries have been treating Muhammad for centuries. For those who want to know more about this, please read our article Orientalism, Misinformation and Islam.



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SO WHAT'S THE VERDICT?

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Overcoming cultural bias or admitting your own double standards is not always easy. For some people, it takes years for them to admit that they've been hypocritical. Hopefully, the thoughts presented here will plant the seed of reflection in some people so that they may reflect on the truth. Admitting that there's a problem is often half the battle, so before the reader heads off to make a final personal judgement on where they stand on this issue, I want to provide some more food for thought. Montgomery Watt, a long time scholar of Islam, had some choice words on how the West should judge Muhammad . I have never agreed with many of Watt's conclusions about Islam, but I have always viewed him as one of the more open-minded and open-hearted Orientalist scholars. Possibly, this is because he was more of a promoter of understanding than a narrow-minded Christian missionary. Years of studying Islam brought Watt to this conclusion:

"The other main allegations of moral defect in Muhammad are that he was treacherous and lustful . . . Sufficient has been said above about the interpretation of these events to show that the case against Muhammad is much weaker than is sometimes thought. The discussions of these allegations, however, raises a fundamental question. How are we to judge Muhammad ? By the standards of his own time and country ? Or by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today? When the sources are closely scrutinized, it is clear that those of Muhammad's actions which are disapproved by the modern West were not the object of the moral criticism of his contemporaries. They criticized some of his acts, but their motives were superstitious prejudice or fear of the consequences. If they criticized the events at Nakhlah, it was because they feared some punishment from the offended pagan gods or the worldly vengeance of the Meccans. If they were amazed at the mass execution of the Jews of the clan of Qurayzah, it was at the number and danger of the blood-feuds incurred. The marriage with Zaynab seemed incestuous, but this conception of incest was bound up with old practices belonging to a lower, communalistic level of familial institutions where a child's paternity was not definitely known; and this lower level was in process being eliminated by Islam . . . From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'."10


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FROM ABRAHAM TO "PICK-AND-CHOOSE / FEEL GOOD RELIGION"

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Everything that we have discussed above logically frees Muhammad from the unjust criticism that he has received (at least amongst those who can be intellectually honest and fair-minided). One point, however, still needs to be made a bit more clear. Even though we've mentioned it in passing, the hypocrisy and double standards of Christians who criticize Muhammad for his morality needs to be more thoroughly analysed and exposed.

Before moving on to an analysis of Biblical morality, I would like to offer some advice and encouraging words to my fellow Muslims. My main piece of advice is to not be discouraged by slanderous attacks on Islam or how it is distorted in the media. Certainly, we all hate to see such things occur, but in the "Information Age" which was brought about by a culture that (allegedly) places a supreme value on freedom of speech, there is not much that we can do to stop it. The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it. Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that Christians and others are using to stop it. From the "moon god" lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West. Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as Christian missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam is a good sign. Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause. When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised. The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous "Third World" religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills Christian bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off to Islam. The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won't be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.


Their methods, however, are failing. In Europe especially, the Christian religion is in a severe state of stagnation and people are looking for truth elsewhere. Christians have always been embarrassed by their almost complete inability to convert a notable Muslim to Christianity. Certainly, they have their converts that they hold up as examples, however all of them seem to have been only nominal Muslims (at best) when they converted. However, many notable Westerners have embraced Islam, recently as well as in the past. One of the most interesting things about this is many (if not all) of these people could be called "Searchers for the Truth". By this I mean that they were the type of people who were spiritual, open-mined and read books on many subjects. They were not brainwashed simpletons who simply wanted to join an easy religion and the dominating culture of the time. They were people who knew a lot not only about religion, but about history, philosophy and other disciplines. Suffice it to say that the truth of Islam is out there, in spite of all the negative press that it gets today. The following is just one testimony that Islam is spreading in the West:

"Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country . . . Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. (The Times , London, Tuesday, November 9th, 1993, Home-News page)
Thanks be to God that many of us who are former "pew warmers" finally decided to go out and investigate what they try to spoon feed us from the pulpit and TV. Why does Islam succeed in attracting Christians and others? Because it's the Clear Way of Abraham. No other religion today can honestly claim this! Islam isn't just a "feel good" religion where they just tell you what you want to hear and read selected verses from the Bible. Most Christians today approach religion like they do Sunday brunch: they take what they like and leave what they don't like. They have this attitude in spite of the fact that Abraham is held up in their Bible as a towering example of faith. Abraham , who was going to sacrifice his own son because Almighty God commanded it, certainly knew the basis of morality. It is clear in both the Bible and the Qur'an that Abraham knew that whatever God commands is the right thing to do. However, how many Christians today can say that they honestly believe that on all issues? How many of them have reflected on the moral ramifications of what is contained in their Bible? Seemingly, not even their learned apologists who attack Islam have reflected on it too deeply!

The question "What is our basis for morality?" is an easy one for those who follow the faith of Abraham —and that's what Islam is. Islam is submission to the Will of Almighty God - "We hear and we obey"- the faith of our father Abraham. If it was good enough for Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, then it's good enough for me! It is this truth and this attitude that attracts people to Islam. The entire basis of Islam, which produces this attitude, is Unity—the Unity of Almighty God and the unity of mankind. To be sure, the message of Islam appeals to the very nature of man. No wonder it is spreading! A Christian theologion, relatively recently, observed:


"It is probable that early in the twenty-first century Islam
will have become numerically the largest of the world religions" 11


Quite possibly, if you count only Sunni Muslims (which are at least 85% of Muslims), we are already the largest religion in the world when compared not to "Christians" as a whole, but to either the Orthodox, Roman Catholics or Protestants each separately.



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A CASE STUDY IN BIBLICAL MORALITY

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Now that we've taken an detailed look at an alleged moral difficulty in the life of Muhammad , for the sake of balance, let's take a look at a moral difficulty in the Bible. We've already made statements above concerning the nature of Biblical morality, but many readers may be unaware of some of its "difficulties". For better or for worse, in Sunday school they generally skip the verses which we are going to deal with below. However, these verses certainly are useful tools in putting intellectually honest Christians in the same "moral dilemna" that they think Muslims should be in due to Muhammad's young marriage to 'Aishah, may God be pleased with her. It should be kept in mind that the purpose of this discussion is the basis for morality, not the inspiration of the Bible (or lack thereof). For the purposes of this discussion, we accept the Bible "as is". However, this should not be interpretted to mean that we are endorsing it as the "Word of God" in toto. On the other hand, it should not be interpreted to mean that we are attacking the "Word of God", since we are discussing it simply because Christians consider it to be the "Word of God" (whatever their particular definition might be). For those wanting more detailed information on the Muslim view of the Bible, please click here.


The portion of the Bible that we want to look at begins with the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17 and 18. Here, Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children. The order continues with the following:



". . . kill every woman who has known man by lying with him,
but all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him,
keep alive for yourselves."

One can only guess how the Israelites determined who the virgins were. Most probably, they did it based on age and maturity, assuming that all of the female "children" who had not reached puberty were virgins. Keep in mind that this was done, according to the Bible, on God's command to "Avenge the Israelites on the Midianites". Later, God gives Moses instructions on how to divide up the booty, "whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheeps or goats". Based on this command, "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known a man by lying with him" were divided up. This was done so that the Israelite soldiers could have these young girls "for themselves". I do not suspect that anyone reading this is either so naive or ignorant of King James English to not know what this means!


Moving along to another great example of Biblical morality, . . . in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 the Biblical "God of Love" gives the following command:


"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thoust has taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire unto her, that though would have her to be thy wife, then though shalt bring her home to thine house . . . and after that you may go into her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if though have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go".
This should serve as sufficient proof that the morality that is taught in the Bible often is not what Christians make it out to be. In spite of what they teach in Sunday school, the above mentioned verses demonstrate the following:

Almighty God, at least according to the Bible:
* Ordered innocent babies to be killed; and
* He allowed young women to be forced into sex against their will.

Before moving on, it should be noted that killing women and children in war is never permitted under Islamic Law (the actions of some ignorant Muslims around the world notwithstanding). Some Christians may take issue with the words "innocent babies" above, since they believe that even babies are tainted with "Original Sin". However, this is not the topic of the discussion at hand. Suffice it to say that Biblical support for the Doctrine of Original Sin is contradictory at best. There are some verses that seem to support it, but there are others that seem to clearly deny it. One strike against "Original Sin", besides the fact that it's simply unjust, is the fact that the Jews—who read the Old Testament—never belived in it the way Chrisitnas do. But anyway . . . when faced with the problematic parts of the Old Testatment, Christians react in various ways. Many offer up the ill thoughtout "Well-That's-in-the-Old-Testament" defense. In spite of the fact that they usually don't brush the Old Testament aside so quickly when they are being shown alleged prophecies which match Jesus, a few other thoughts can be presented. Some of the things that make brushing aside the Old Tesament a bit more difficult (at least for Christians who want to remain intellectually honest) are: 1) the same God that "inspired" the Old Testament "inspired" the New Testament; 2) this same God is "unchanging" according to the Bible; 3) Jesus in the New Testament endorses the "Law and the prophets" (i.e. the Old Testament) in several places; and 4) without the Old Testament there is no basis for Christianity.

When put in this predicament, Christians, have one of two choices: 1) stop thinking about it and fall back on a liberal "pick-and-choose" religion that just makes them "feel good" but does not answer any of life's more difficult questions; or 2) accept the (allegedly) Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible "as is" and en toto.


There are Christians out there who claim to accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible. They understand what's at stake and the issues at hand. If people are allowed to whimsically decide what is right and what is wrong, there would be chaos. Just as importantly, if people decide what is "God's Word" and what is not His word based on their preconceived notions and "modern" sensibilities, nothing would be left of the Bible. As such, there are Christians who, in principle, say that killing babies is "moral" as long as God clearly commands it. For someone who understands the nature of Divinely Revealed morality, we would have to agree in principle but with certain reservations. As mentioned above, Almighty God—according to Islam—never commands the killing of innocent children. That is one "difficulty" that I am glad that Muslims don't have to explain their way out of! Killing babies is okay as long as God commands it!?! So much for having Christians as baby-sitters!


The bottom line is that morality comes from Almighty God and from Him alone. However, if ones studies the Bible, it is plain to see that it is not a foundation for morality. The examples above are just a few that can be provided from both the Old and the New Testament. The people who promote "Biblical morality" pick and choose from the text as they please. Only in Islam can one with good conscience accept "the whole package" without ignorantly or hypocritically denying things that they don't like. This is how true internal peace and balance are achieved. If one belongs to a religions without accepting everything in its scripture (real or alleged) one is not only bearing false witness againt themself but against God Himself. With all the false ideas in the modern age, it's easy to be lead astray. The liberal Westeran morality that has now touched all corners of the globe is, culturally speaking, something like an eight-hundred pound gorilla. It's very hard to stand in its way or speak out against it. However, being encouraged by others to follow "vain desires" has been an eternal problem for mankind, as Almighty God makes clear in the Qur'an:



"Say: 'I will not follow your vain desires:
if I did I would stray from the path
and be not of the company of those who receive guidance.'"
Qur'an - Surah al-An'aam - 6:56

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GUIDEPOSTS TO BE THANKFUL FOR

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The Prophet Muhammad was a great example for all of humanity and peoples of different cultures (from "modern" Europeans to the aborigines of Australia). Not only was he a great Prophet and Messenger, but he was also a statesman, military leader, ruler, teacher, neighbor and friend. Family life was one of the most important areas where he was a great example, since he was both a husband and a father. Due to God's wisdom, His last and final prophet experienced a wide array of marriages and family situations. Due to this, he is an example for people who are monogamous, for those who are polygamous, for those wishing to marry those older than themselves and for those wondering how early someone can rightfully marry. Muhammad reestablished the Religion of Abraham so that it would continue to the Last Day.


As Muslims, we should be thankful for these guideposts in our moral journey through life. Reflecting on them aids us in avoiding being led astray into "moral relativism". This is a very dangerous thing, since it can lead to the worst of all sins—associating others with Almighty God in worship, belief and/or Lordship. By knowing the Prophet's life we can see how to stay within the boundaries laid by Almighty God and stay on the Natural Religion of Islam which was made to suit the natural disposition (fitrah) of mankind. I pray that we, as Muslims, make Almighty God's limits our limits, and that we are not influenced by other societies and cultures. If it was good enough for Abraham and Moses, then it's good enough for me . . .


That's the way I see it, but God knows best . . .






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FOOTNOTES

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1 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad at Medina, Oxford University Press, 1956.
2 "Rites and Ceremonies", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 26, page 850.

3 Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary, Ktav Publishing House,1981, page 28.

4 "Central Africa", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 15, page 646. See also "Aboriginal Australia", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 14, page 425. For additional references to the marriage customs in Biblical times, see Israel: Its Life and Culture, by Johannes Pedersen, Volume 1, page 60ff.

5 Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.

6 English-translation of Sahih Muslim, Volume 2, International Islamic Publishing House, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, page 715.

7 Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage : Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.

8 Nabia Abbott, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, Al-Saqi Books, London, 1985, page 7.

9 Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157.

10 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford University Press, 1961, page 229.

11 John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1993, page 87.

jamila
28-09-02, 04:04 AM
Shukrulallah, Raafi.

Fi emani Allah

Jamila :)

Lala
28-09-02, 08:15 AM
The answer is not in scripture. It is in your hearts. We use scripture to justify our own points of view.


ps: Erm, are *Unitarians* *Trinitarians*? And Quakers? etc? Believe me, Sir, these are monotheists. There is a long standing strain of Christianity (look up Arianism) that simply considers Christ a teacher, a wise-man.

And everybody - lets stop quibbling over - lets stop FIGHTING over these differences. Couldn't somebody make a list of all the things we have in COMMON??

eve
28-09-02, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Raafi
http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm

SO WHAT ABOUT THESE FACT????????

Muawiyah posted this on 8-14-02 on this thread.

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Reply*

To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view.

(* I have not yet been able to find a single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage.*)

Unless such examples are given, we do not have (* any reasonable grounds to believe*) that it really was an accepted norm.

In the presence of all these historical narratives that contradict the narrative of Ayesha's age at the time of her marriage, (* any one ) who wants (*to prove )
that Ayesha (ra) was nine years at the time of consummation of her marriage
(* has the responsibility *) of telling others (* why is he rejecting ) all the other
(* historical narratives *) and accepting only the one that states Ayesha's age to be nine at the time of her marriage.

Makes sense to me; anyone can read ALL that was written at the beginning of this thread on this subject.

EVE…..

eve
28-09-02, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Lala
[B]The answer is not in scripture. It is in your hearts. We use scripture to justify our own points of view.




Lala; You say the answer is NOT in the scriptures; How wrong you are. Any question a person might have can be answered by the Holy Scriptures, and you know it is the truth by what you feel in your heart. I use scriptures to prove that it was God that said things NOT me...

If you think that the Christians have things in common with the Islamic religion; Go ahead, Make the list.

EVE.....

eve
30-09-02, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Sultan
hmmmm

Protestants and catholics are the same to me.

Both are trinitarians.

I have experienced both protestantism and catholicism.

Both suck!

:p


Actions speak louder words; If you are a Muslim, I really am glad I'm a Christian Protestant, as you make the Islamic religion look like it is one of Hate. and My God teaches Love...

Eve......

AbuMubarak
02-10-02, 02:35 PM
and eve, if jesus was alive today, he would be a muslim

so if you are a christian, i am so glad i am a muslim and a true follower of christ, you make the christian religion look like a bunch of kooks that are grossly misguided

eve
08-10-02, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Raafi
and eve, if jesus was alive today, he would be a muslim

so if you are a christian, i am so glad i am a muslim and a true follower of christ, you make the christian religion look like a bunch of kooks that are grossly misguided


That is really funny; we christians live by JESUS' example; and the name Christ-ian comes from being a follower of the teachings of Jesus himself; what is revealed in Scriptures and From the Holy Spirit, (* Who is Jesus in the Spirit.*). Like I said many times; Jesus QUOTED the scriptures in the OT. and we still have the same scriptures today in the BIBLE; and they were good enough for Jesus to quote; Its good enough for me. Its just a shame you Muslims are so much like the Jews that Killed Jesus. Aways trying to convert people away from the Truth as it was written in the Bible.

EVE.......

AbuMubarak
08-10-02, 01:08 AM
christians do not live in any way in the way of jesus

christian means they worship jesus, not that they are followers of jesus

the followers of jesus were called the nasireen (followers of jesus of nazareth)

muslims are not like the jews who killed jesus and called mary a whore, we respect jesus

if you cannot post truthful things, please refrain from posting

ZawjatuRaafi
09-10-02, 12:58 AM
As Salaamu Alaikum Mashaa Allah very good comebacks ...

Anyhow found this fatwaa thought i would add it to this post... Here goes...

2202
The Prophet’s dream about marrying ‘Aa’ishah


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In reply to a question regarding marriage of prophet Mohammad ( ), I was given to understand that prophet Mohammad had a dream in which he saw that he got married with hazrat Aisah who was only 6-7 year old at that time. Consequently, he discussed this with hazrat Aisha. In other word this marriage was arranged by Allah himself. If so, we have a logical answer to satisfy critics that it was ordered by Allah. However, in support of that there must be an athentic hadith or a verse in the Qur'an.

I will appreciate if you can provide me info regarding this issue.

Praise be to Allaah.

The hadeeth to which you refer was reported by Imaam al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) in his Saheeh from ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her), who said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “You were shown to me twice in a dream. I saw you in a piece of silk (i.e., he saw her image on a piece of silk, or he saw her wearing a silken garment). I was told, ‘This is your wife, so unveil her,’ and it was you. I said: if this dream is from Allaah then it will come to pass.’” (Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 3606).

In his commentary on this hadeeth, Ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “This dream came after his mission had started, and it was a wahy (revelation) that had implications in real life. (Its implication was that he did indeed marry her later on). His words ‘and it was you’ indicate that he had seen her before and knew what she looked like.” (See Fath al-Baari)

There is nothing in the hadeeth to indicate that his marriage to ‘Aa’ishah was as a result of that dream. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) asked her father for her hand in marriage, and her father Abu Bakr gave her in marriage, in the usual fashion, as is indicated in the following hadeeth:

“ ‘Urwah reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) asked Abu Bakr for ‘Aa’ishah’s hand in marriage, and Abu Bakr said to him: ‘But I am your brother.’ He said: ‘You are my brother according to the religion and Book of Allaah (i.e., my brother in Islam), and she is permissible for me (to marry).” (Bukhaari, 4691).

In his commentary Ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Ibn Abi ‘Aasim reported via Yahyaa ibn ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn Haatib from ‘Aa’ishah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent Khawlah bint Hakeem to Abu Bakr to ask for ‘Aa’ishah’s hand in marriage. Abu Bakr asked her, ‘Is she right for him? Because she is the daughter of my brother.’ Khawlah went back and mentioned this to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He told her: ‘Go back and tell him: “You are my brother in Islam, and your daughter is right for me.”’ She went back to Abu Bakr and told him, and he said: ‘Call the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).’ So he came and the marriage was performed.”

The phrase “You are my brother according to the religion and Book of Allaah (i.e., my brother in Islam)” was referring to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning): “The believers are nothing else than brothers (in Islamic religion)…” [al-Hujuraat 49:10] and other similar aayaat. The phrase “she is permissible for me (to marry)” means it is permissible to marry her even though she is the brother’s daughter, because the kind of brotherhood that would prevent such a marriage is the brotherhood of descent (same parent) or of radaa’ah (by being breastfed in infancy by the same woman), not the brotherhood of faith.

As regards the woman to whom the Prophet’s marriage was arranged in heaven, as it were, by Allaah, and not in the customary fashion, this was Zaynab bint Jahsh (may Allaah be pleased with her), as is indicated by the hadeeth of Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said: “Zaynab used to boast (to her co-wives) about how she had got married to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), saying: ‘Your families arranged your marriages but Allaah arranged my marriage from above the seven heavens.’” (al-Bukhaari, 6870). No other wife except Zaynab was married to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in such a unique fashion; ‘Aa’ishah’s marriage was arranged as described in the reports quoted above. May Allaah reward you with good for your question. And Allaah knows best.

http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/6|Islamic_history_and_biography(Tareekh_wa_al-Seerah)/Mutafarraqaat_(Miscellaneous)/The_Prophet's_dream_about_marrying_'Aa'ishah.05081 998.2202.shtml

eve
09-10-02, 01:12 AM
AbuMubarak says;
christians do not live in any way in the way of jesus

EVE replies;
(* We Christians do live the way Jesus taught us to live; a good example of that would be;

Matthew 25:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you,
(* Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,*) (* ye have done it unto me.*)
______________________________________

christian means they worship jesus, not that they are followers of jesus

Eve replies;
YOUR wrong; Christians are followers of Jesus’ teachings, Which make them Christ-like, or Christians.
________________________________________


the followers of jesus were called the nasireen (followers of jesus of nazareth)

Eve replies;
When Jesus was alive he had No doubt followers from Nazareth, But that was not the only place that he had followers from as he preached all over Israel.
______________________________________

muslims are not like the jews who killed jesus and called mary a #####,

EVE replies;
I never said that the Muslims Killed Jesus or called Mary a #####; But like the scribes who had the scriptures right in front of their eyes; STILL taught the scriptures WRONG, just like the Islamic religion, that teaches that the scriptures are corrupt; and like I said before;
They were good enough for Jesus to quote; there good enough for me.
That is how I was comparing Muslims to the Jews. By the way; where is it recorded that the Jews called Mary a #####? As I know its not in scriptures.
_______________________________________

we respect jesus

EVE replies;

Really?? Then why don’t the Muslims live by what he taught? Like THOU SHALL NOT KILL. And where is the evidences of LOVE for ALL people??
__________________________________________

if you cannot post truthful things, please refrain from posting

Eve replies;

Before calling someone a liar; You really should read the OLD TESTAMENT; the same one Jesus read and lived by; then you would realize that the New Testament is the fulfillment of the OT prophecies, That was Prophesied by God’ TRUE PROPHETS. With Jesus being the FULFILLED PROMISED SEED TO ABRAHAM.
EVE……

jamila
09-10-02, 02:48 AM
Eve,

We don't say that the revelations of Moses and Jesus are corrupt. We even think the Bible contains a great deal of the original message, albiet humanised (filtered). We believe that Christians and Jews have corrupted its message in their teachings, and twisted it out of recognition. They have nade, instead of following the Messengers, their Rabbis, priests and Monks Lords beside Allah (in that they prefer to follow what their elders permit and prohibit than what is in the scripture from their Lord)

We (Muslims) live by what Jesus taught, and not only that. We believe in The Message he brought.

There is no doubt that Christians live by ethics and morals that Jesus preached in society, if you practice what you quote. All praise to that, and May Allah reward you for it. But you have lost the message, or ignore it: La illaha illa Allah, (there is only one God, and there is no other but He: Mark 12, 32)
Allah ordere His Messenger to warn you: Say; "Shall we tell you the greatest losers in respect to their deeds? Those whos efforts have been wasted in this life while they thought that they were acquiring good by their deeds. They are those who deny the signs/verses of their Lord and the meeting with Him (Allah). So their works are in vain, and on The Day of Resurrection, We shall assign no weight to them. Hell shall be their recompense, because they disbelieved (in the Oneness of Allah) and took my signs/verses and Messengers by way of jest and mockery." Surat Al Khaf, 103-106.

This is not a prayer that you are guided to Hell, but a warning from Allah. I would much rather see you in Heaven than see you cast into the Fire. So open your eyes, and make your deeds worthwhile.

Jamila :)

eve
10-10-02, 05:56 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
[B]Eve,

We don't say that the revelations of Moses and Jesus are corrupt. We even think the Bible contains a great deal of the original message, albiet humanised (filtered). We believe that Christians and Jews have corrupted its message in their teachings, and twisted it out of recognition.
-------------------------------

Jamila; the Jews were Corrupt themselves; NOT the scriptures, and I even know of a few so-called Christians that have taught things that are not in scriptures; But the scriptures are still the same today as they were in the beginning when God inspiried men of God to write them. The Holy Spirit has gifted me with seeing KEY words in scriptures, that bring to light the true meaning of a verse, but in no way is that changing the words of the scriptures, So the Bible contains yet today, the very words that God intended it to have; But think about this; The very words Jesus preached from the Bible are the words that Muhammad said in the Quran are corrupt; So who do you think I should believe Muhammad who came along 600 years after Jesus, OR Jesus, who fulfilled Old Testament Prophecy. Common sense tells me that anyone could write a book like the one Muhammad dictated to whoever it was that copied it down, given as many years as it took them to do it. What seems pretty weird is that fact that most writers only take a couple of years to write a book, except books that are science related, as that can take years of experiments. The reason it took the Quran so many years is the fact, that they took the Holy Bible and had to read it and pick out what they didn't want to change, then they had to figure out how to twist what they wanted the people to believe but the writers are not God inspired so therefore they lacked understanding of the true meaning of a lot of scriptures; therefore: writing things like Jesus talked to Mary when he was an infant after giving birth to him under a tree. Come on what is wrong with you people;

Luke 2
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.

There were witnesses to that event, such as; the shepherds ; The wise men; and even King Herod as he was told by the chief priests and scribes; where Christ should be born; In Bethlehem of Judaea.

EVE.......

jamila
10-10-02, 06:21 AM
Eve,
There were about 40,000 witnesses to the final revelation given to Muhammad, though only a few witnesses to the initial stages (including a Christian Scholar, Waraqa).

The revelation was sent down in stages as events occured that it would explain the message in the living context.

Over how long a period were the scriptures written in the Bible produced? Then how long did it take to compile those scriptures chosen into a single form?

If Moses was the author of the first five books (written over his long lifetime and after it [Deuteronomy]) 3000 years ago, and the Jews only auhtorized their present tanakh in 90 A.C., then it took 2 millenia to 'write' the Tanakh. The Christians only got their act together in 325 or thereabouts, which makes the time they took to write their 'Bible' (at least one version of it) 2 millenia and a quarter.

Please don't use arguments that so easily backfire on you. ;)

Jamila :)

eve
10-10-02, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
[B]Eve,
There were about 40,000 witnesses to the final revelation given to Muhammad, though only a few witnesses to the initial stages (including a Christian Scholar, Waraqa).
-----------------------------------
Jamila; There was NO witnesses to the fact that someone talked to Muhammad; Only witnesses to the fact Muhammad said someone talked to him. No one ever heard or seen anything and you know it.
All of the Israelites saw a bright cloud; and they heard GOD' voice; They were witnesses to fire and clouds following them before the Red Sea; They were witnesses to the Red Sea Parting, and the Egyptians and their horses drowning.
Not only that the Laws and commandments were given to Moses in 40 days up in the Mountain; So don't you think if scriptures were so corrupt, that God himself would have given them to Muhammad as soon as possible? In fact God never would have waited that long, I'm sure he would have given them to Jesus to correct; IF there was a need for it.
_________________________________________

The revelation was sent down in stages as events occured that it would explain the message in the living context.
----------------------------
So what events occured within those 20 some odd years?
____________________________________________

Over how long a period were the scriptures written in the Bible produced? Then how long did it take to compile those scriptures chosen into a single form?
----------------------------------
The Bible is a History book to say the least; and it did take years to record all the miracles that God did; and about all the people that God wanted to be in the book; not only that, their history was recorded and past down through generations, adding more things God wanted in it as time past by. Making it ONE of a kind; and if it were corrupt, God had plenty of time to make sure it was corrected. He never would have waited for Muhammad as my God is not a God of confusion; He is the same God today as yesterday, and will be tomorrow. Having the Quran written 600 years after Jesus, makes God look like he was confused and didn't know what to do next, and then he couldn't think of what to say to Muhammad, so it took him 20 some more years to spit it all out. There is absolutely NO reason for another book called the Quran.

Luke 18
31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and (*all things that are written*) by the prophets concerning the Son of man (*shall be accomplished.*)

Isaiah 55
11 So shall (*my word*) be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it (*shall not return unto me void*), but it (*shall accomplish*) that which I please, and (*it shall prosper*) in the thing whereto I sent it.

Eve.....

jamila
10-10-02, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by eve
There was NO witnesses to the fact that someone talked to Muhammad. Only witnesses to the fact Muhammad said someone talked to him. No one ever heard or seen anything and you know it.[/B]

This is the Hadeeth of Jibreel (as it is colloquially known)

The following version combines two ahadiyth concerning the open visitation of the angel Jibreel in the form of a man. The topic being taught was the basic deen (in general). The ahâdiyth from the following two are the most complete, though 5 other ahâdiyth attest to the same occurrence (in less detail).

The colour code below is as follows:

NAVY is from ‘Umar. {From Sahih Muslim}
INDIGO is from Abu Hurraira {From Sahih Bukhari}
SEAGREEN is from both



From 'Umar ibn al-Khattaab (radiyallaahu 'anhu) / Abu Hurraira (radiyallaahu 'anhu)
who said,
Whilst we were sitting with Allaah's Messenger (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) one day when a man (the angel Jibreel) came to us whose clothes were extremely white and whose hair was extremely black; no trace of his having travelled could be seen upon him and none of us knew him.

So he sat down with the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam), and he put his two knees with his (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) two knees, and he put his two hands on his two (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) thighs. He said, ‘O Muhammad! Inform me about al-Islaam.'

So Allaah's Messenger (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) said, ‘Islaam is that you testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah, that you establish the Prayer, that you give the Zakat and that you fast Ramadan and that you make Hajj to the House if you are able to get there.'

He said, ‘You have spoken the truth.'

So we were surprised with him, asking him and (then) telling him that he had spoken the truth. Then he further asked ‘Then inform me about Eemaan.'

He said, ‘Eemaan is that you truly believe in Allaah and His Angels and His Books and His Messengers and the Last Day and that you truly believe in the Pre-decree (Qadr), the good of it and the evil of it.'

He said, ‘You have spoken the truth.' Then he further asked ‘Then tell me about Ihsaan.'

He said, ‘It is that you worship Allaah as if you are seeing Him and even though you do not see him, yet He certainly sees you.'

He said, ‘You have spoken the truth.' Then he further asked ‘Then tell me about the Last Hour.'

He said, ‘The one who is questioned about it does not know any better than the one who is asking.'

Then he said, 'Then inform me about its signs.'

He said, ‘That the slave girl will give birth to her mistress and that you will see the bare-footed, naked and destitute shepherds of sheep competing to build high buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah. '

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34)

Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. So he (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) remained for some time and then he said to me, ‘O 'Umar! Do you know who the questioner was?'

I said, ‘Allaah and His Messenger know best.'

Then the Prophet said, ‘That was Jibreel who came to teach the people their religion.’


Authenticity of the Hadeeth

Muslim reports it in his Sahîh, number 8, by way of 1 Ibn 'Umar who said, "My father, 'Umar, narrated this to me ...' It is reported by Ibn 'Umar from the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) as occurs in Majma'az-Zawa'id (1 /40), at-Tirmidhee said in his Sunan (8/5), "And what is correct is Ibn 'Umar from his father, 'Umar from the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam)."

It is also reported by the two Shaykhs, al-Bukhari in Al-Fath, 1/114, and Muslim, number 9, from the hadith of 2 Abu Hurairah (radiyallaahu 'anhu).

An-Nasaa'ee reports it (8/101) from the hadith of Abu Hurairah and 3 Abu Dharr (radiyallaahu 'anhu).

I say: His chain of narration is authentic (sahîh).

And the hadith of 'Umar from the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi waas salaam) is also related from a group of the Companions (radiyallaahu 'anhum): from
4 Ibn 'Abbaas,
5 Anas ibn Maalik,
6 Jareer ibn 'Abdullaah and
7 Abu 'Aamir or Abu Maalik (Aamir means ‘prince and maalik means ‘king’ – these would have been ‘nicknames’) al-Ashja'ee.

What this report on the chain of narrators indicates is that at least 7 companions who witnessed the event reported it separately in different chains, all the ahâdiyth bearing each other out, if not reporting the occurrence as completely as ‘Umar ibn Al Khattab and Abu Hurrairah (another nickname = ‘the father of {stray} kittens’).

All of the Israelites saw a bright cloud; and they heard GOD' voice;
All? funny, I only heard such a thing in the synoptic gospels, all culled from the same source. Why is it that it isn't documented elsewhere (since ALL THE ISRAELITES heard it), in particular the Jewish records? Sounds a bit like the day darkening and the Earth quaking at the crucifixion :p.


They were witnesses to fire and clouds following them before the Red Sea; They were witnesses to the Red Sea Parting, and the Egyptians and their horses drowning.
So they were. So why don't you believe in the Lord, God of Israel, who is "One God. There is no other but He (La ilaha illa Allah)" (Mark 12:32)?

Not only that the Laws and commandments were given to Moses in 40 days up in the Mountain;
Really? So all the stuff in Deuteronomy and Leveticus (the nitty gritty of those Laws) weren't actually revealed while Moses (and Aaron) was among his people? Or are you referring to the instructions he recieved about prayer and the tabernacle and the tablets of stone on which the main articles of faith were etched?

Surely you realise that "all" the revelation was not recieved in those (40?) days. In just the same way, "all" the revelation was not recieved by Muhammad, but the instructions concerning daily worship were recieved in one night (Sirat al Isra).

Similarly, in one of the witnessed visits (above) of the angel Gabriel, the synopsis of the religion was taught. (See the hadeeth I promised above)

So don't you think if scriptures were so corrupt, that God himself would have given them to Muhammad as soon as possible?
Allah does as He wills, and is not at your beck and call.

In fact God never would have waited that long, I'm sure he would have given them to Jesus to correct;
He did.

IF there was a need for it.
There was then, and even more so later, after the heresy of Paul led the gentile Christians far astray.

http://ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4712


The revelation was sent down in stages as events occured that it would explain the message in the living context.
----------------------------
So what events occured within those 20 some odd years?

Try reading Ar Raheeq Al Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar) http://www.masmn.org/Books/Safiur_Rahman_Mubarakpuri/Raheeq_Al_Maktoom/
or any other biography of the Prophet before you speak out of the nether end. Or any history of the rise of Islam and the life of the prophet.


The Bible is a History book to say the least; and it did take years to record all the miracles that God did; and about all the people that God wanted to be in the book; not only that, their history was recorded and past down through generations, adding more things God wanted in it as time past by. Now you are making it look like God didn't know what to teach the people, and had to wait for history to enlighten him into what was needed to be said. Is God a historian, that he needs to keep our history book in order? Ha. Ha. Ha.

The reality is that God gave succint messages to Moses, in his lifetime, to David in his lifetime, and to Jesus and Muhammad in their lifetimes. The record of other prophets serve as reminders, for God thoughtfully sent regular reminders to the people who insisted on straying (as you have done) until the final criterion, which he has promised to preserve. That criterion is the Qur'an from his Noble and seal of the prophets, the Messenger Muhammad, solla Allahu alayhi wassalam.

PS. Some of the witnessed miracles of Muhammad:

The splitting of the moon
The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Qur'an in Surah 54, entitled The Moon. Its opening verse may be rendered in translation as follows: "The Hour of doom drawn near and the moon is cleft in two. Yet, when they see a sign, they turn their backs and say 'Prevailing sorcery'"." As you realize, this refers to a real incident at the time of the Prophet when the unbelievers asked him to show them a miraculous sign. According to some reports, they specifically demanded that the moon be split up. Allah granted their request, and showed them the moon divided in two. They saw it with their own eyes that one half of it was at the bottom of the mount of Hera and the other was at the other end. The most hardened of the unbelievers turned their backs and said that this was a magic trick. Some of them suggested that the Prophet could not have a spell of a magic on all people. They proposed to wait until caravans coming from far away places arrived in Makkah. When they asked them, the people in the caravan told them that they saw on the same night the moon split in two. Even then those unbelievers refused to submit and claimed that the magic spell prevailed throughout the region. Hence, Allah describes their attitude when he says: "Yet when they see a sign, they turn their backs and say 'prevailing sorcery'."

Some more at this url:
[ http://www.ummah.com/sunnah/printsufeature.php?sufid=3 ]

Jamila :)

eve
17-10-02, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by jamila



Eve said;
All of the Israelites saw a bright cloud; and they heard GOD' voice;
--------------------------

Jamila replied;

All? funny, I only heard such a thing in the synoptic gospels, all culled from the same source. Why is it that it isn't documented elsewhere (since ALL THE ISRAELITES heard it), in particular the Jewish records? Sounds a bit like the day darkening and the Earth quaking at the crucifixion .
---------------------------------------
Eve replied;

Exodus 19
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people (* may hear when I speak with thee*), and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,

11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down (*in the sight *) of (*all *) the people upon mount Sinai.

Exodus 24

15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

16 And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

17 And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.
------------------------------
Eve said;
They were witnesses to fire and clouds following them before the Red Sea; They were witnesses to the Red Sea Parting, and the Egyptians and their horses drowning.
-------------------------------

Jamila said

So they were.
---------------------------------
Eve said:
Not only that the Laws and commandments were given to Moses in 40 days up in the Mountain;
---------------------------------

Jamila replied;
Really? So all the stuff in Deuteronomy and Leveticus (the nitty gritty of those Laws) weren't actually revealed while Moses (and Aaron) was among his people? Or are you referring to the instructions he recieved about prayer and the tabernacle and the tablets of stone on which the main articles of faith were etched?
----------------------------------------

Eve replies;

Exodus 24
12 And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee (* tables *) of stone, (*and a LAW*), (*and COMMANDMENTS*) WHICH * I * HAVE WRITTEN; that thou mayest (*TEACH THEM*).

18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount (* forty days and forty nights.*)
-------------------------------------

Jamila said;

Surely you realise that "all" the revelation was not recieved in those (40?) days.
----------------------------------------

Eve replies;

I never said that God didn’t instruct Moses about the people throughout the 40 years as I’m sure there was a need for it; after all there was Thousands of people there in the wilderness with him. But as far as the Law and Commandments; Moses had them in his hand ready to teach after JUST 40 days, and the people were witnesses to that.
----------------
Eve wrote;

So don't you think if scriptures were so corrupt, that God himself would have given them to Muhammad as soon as possible?
---------------------------------
Jamila replies;
Allah does as He wills, and is not at your beck and call.
---------------------------
Eve replies;
But to wait for so long is totally against God' revealed nature according to scriptures in the Old Testament. When the people sinned, God was right there telling one of his prophets what to say to them; if they didn't obey; they were punished right then, NOT years; months; days or even hours later. Right Then.
--------------------------------

Eve wrote;
In fact God never would have waited that long, I'm sure he would have given them to Jesus to correct;
-----------------------------------

Jamila writes;

He did.
----------------------------------

Eve replies;
Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament; not to correct it, as there was nothing wrong with it. He came to explain it the correct way as the Priests and the scribes were teaching it wrong as they themselves were corrupt, and because of it a lot of people had NO idea who God really was or what he really wanted. But now because of Jesus dying for our sins and yet being very much alive in Spirit; we are Blessed to have scriptures explained to us by him, so we can know the TRUTH as it was intended to be in the first place.

EVE……….

jamila
17-10-02, 07:41 PM
Dear Eve,
Exodus 19 : 9 – 11 and 15 - 18
Different place and different time – not witnesses to a voice out of the clouds claiming Jesus to be Its son.

Exodus 24 : 12 - 24

What a pity he broke them after all that hard work, when he saw them worshipping the golden calf. ;)



I never said that God didn’t instruct Moses about the people throughout the 40 years as I’m sure there was a need for it; after all there was Thousands of people there in the wilderness with him. But as far as the Law and Commandments; Moses had them in his hand ready to teach after JUST 40 days, and the people were witnesses to that.

All praise belongs to God alone. So the books of Moses were revealed gradually over the lifetime of his prophet, just like the Qur’an. :)

And just 40 days to receive the basic laws (which he subsequently broke over this knees to be put in the garbage – so angry was he) Bully for him!

But the basic precepts of Islam were confirmed in the centre of town by the angel Gabriel in only a few minutes, according to the companions of the prophet.

Why did it take so long (40 days) for God to hand over the prewritten tablets? Didn’t he know what the Israelis would do out from under the prophet’s firm hand for 40 days? :confused:


But to wait for so long is totally against God' revealed nature according to scriptures in the Old Testament. When the people sinned, God was right there telling one of his prophets what to say to them; if they didn't obey; they were punished right then, NOT years; months; days or even hours later. Right Then.
Really? And what about in the Arabian peninsular? Did God prescribe and punish right away when disobeyed during the lifetime of the prophet? I’m afraid you will find that he did, if you bother to research the hadith or read references to such incidents in the Qur’an. So what are you trying to prove? :confused:

Jesus came to fulfill the Old Testament; not to correct it, as there was nothing wrong with it. He came to explain it the correct way as the Priests and the scribes were teaching it wrong as they themselves were corrupt,
I don’t really disagree with what you say here. Muhammad came with exactly the same mission, as did all the prophets. However, your assertion that he made no changes is incorrect, even according to your bible. Read the sermon on the mount (Matthew) or on the plain (Luke).

The Assumptions you have behind THIS (following), however, (even though the words are superficially true if you take Jesus to be the prophet he was, and removed the “dying for your sins” bit) YOU CANNOT PROVE. They are assumptions from your own (educated) beliefs.


and because of it a lot of people had NO idea who God really was or what he really wanted. But now because of Jesus dying for our sins and yet being very much alive in Spirit; we are Blessed to have scriptures explained to us by him, so we can know the TRUTH as it was intended to be in the first place.

Jamila :)

jamila
08-01-03, 08:52 PM
Thanks eve,
I'll check those verses out.

Re 'Aisha. Whether she was a woman or not at 9 is not the point. Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, did not have sexual intercourse with her until she was a woman. Please tell me if it is illegal to marry at 9 years old, or before puberty.

From/of. a slip of the pen or a slightly different translation (I think I used NASV consistently in this post - so look it up). Sorry, just the way my mind was working.

"Just another prophecy of Jesus."

Again you are making an assertion. Argue the case, if you have one. How have you come to that conclusion. (I'm not saying you are wrong - just that you are making an assertion without arguing your case.)

Jamila :)

jamila
08-01-03, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by jamila

Re 'Aisha. Whether she was a woman or not at 9 is not the point. Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, did not have sexual intercourse with her until she was a woman. Please tell me if it is illegal to marry at 9 years old, or before puberty.



I just checked out the story concerning 'aisha's marriage and the consumation of it here:

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/dawahpage/aisha.html

(Please read the whole article)

As you can see, 'Aisha was actually 6 when she got married (the challenge is still there to proove such a mariage is illegal), and consummated when she was 9. So you were right. Sexual intercourse took place at that age (9).

However, as the article points out, this was 3 years into the marriage. Why the waiting period if Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, was what Answering-Islam accuses him of being?

Just as I said before, he did not consummate the marriasge until she had reached puberty - had become a woman. Aisha herself is the source of three of the hadith concerning this event, so I am sure neither she nor her father saw anything wrong with the marriage and the timing of consumation. And I challenge you to prove that it is illegal to consumate one's marriage with an already pubescent 9 year old wife.

Jamila:)

PS. Any readers of this mini debate with Eve. Whatever she comes back with, I really don't want to get bogged down with in trivial argument. Please click on the url shown and read thoroughly. propably any riposte she has will inshallh be answered therein.

Sultan
10-01-03, 12:07 AM
Eve,

Girls being married of at a very early age was very common in the past.

I saw a BBC programme on what life was like in ancient Isreal during the time of Jesus (Saw). A jewish historian in the documentary said that it was common practice for girls to be married off once they reached puberty.

You have to stop judging things by today's 'standards'!

Anyway, this thread has been quite good.

eve
10-01-03, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Sultan
Eve,

Girls being married of at a very early age was very common in the past.

I saw a BBC programme on what life was like in ancient Isreal during the time of Jesus (Saw). A jewish historian in the documentary said that it was common practice for girls to be married off once they reached puberty.

You have to stop judging things by today's 'standards'!

Anyway, this thread has been quite good.


Sultan,
I guess I was kinda judging by todays standards, But I have also read and have done a study to some degree starting from Genesis on ages of different people, places and things, and I have found out a lot, right now I'm doing a study of when in history according to scriptures, did people really start to go their own way, meaning rejecting God' instructions. So it doesn't surprise me about what you heard on BBC, but once again I would suggest to all people that REALLY want the truth to go back to the beginning of scriptures and search them. Besides its a Great History story and teaching.

Eve....

Ruqayyah
03-03-03, 12:55 AM
Philosophy of Marriages


The Philosophy of the Marriages of the Holy Prophet of Islam


SOME EXAMPLES OF THE ACCUSATIONS BROUGHT AGAINST HIM BY CHRISTIANS
At the beginning of the 18th'century, Christian writers began a new crusade against Islam. Through writing and circulating books over-flowing with insults and false accusations, they intended to distract the people of the world from the divine religion of Islam and to turn them against the great leader of Islam, Prophet Muhammad (peace and the mercy of God be upon him and his descendants). [43]



These myths, false writings, and prejudiced works of the Christian bigots originated in the Middle Ages, especially in the 15th century, when one John Andre Maure wrote a book against the Prophet's religion that was used by the later anti _Islamic writers. And since other writers did not know the Arabic language, they contented themselves with copying out of his books on Islam. [44]



Thus, the writers whose so-called sacred books openly accuse prophets [45] of adultery have written about our great leader, `He followed passions and sensual desires and though he ordered his followers not to take more than four permanent wives, he himself had more wives' . [46]



With this insult, they have tried to introduce our Holy Prophet as a sensual man to the unaware Christian readers, thus to stain his supreme character and to hinder the spread and propagation of Islam.



But this fantasy turned out to be vain. Before long, the honest Christian writers began to defend the Holy Prophet of Islam and to apologize for the accusations brought against the Qur'an and the Prophet of Islam.



It is clear to those of us who believe in the perfect innocence of prophets, that such insults are quite unbelievable and far from the truth, but it is necessary to make the facts clear to those who do not agree with us in this matter.



THE JUDGMENTOF HISTORY
It has been written by impartial truth-seeking historians, both Muslims and Christians, that the numerous marriages of the Holy Prophet of Islam, were by no means due to sensuality and sexual passions, for if this were so, he would never have married Khadija who was 40 years old and who had lost most of her beauty and vivacity in the houses of her two former husbands, when he himself was only 25, the age of the sexual passions of youth and when young men are preoccupied with choosing young wives.



The Prophet lived most sincerely and faithfully for 25 years with Khadija [47], and, though many beautiful Arab maidens and women were eagerly longing to marry him, not once did he take another wife during his married life with Khadija. No doubt if our Holy Prophet were interested in following sexual passions, he could not have refrained from mating with young women during this long period.



GROUNDLESS VIEWS OF BIGOTED CRITICS
What if such unjust people were asked, `Why did the Prophet spend his youth with an aged widow and not marry other women? Why did he take several women as wives in the last ten years of his life, which was the period of old age and when he was having to handle many problems regarding both the internal and external policies of Islam, it was not convenient for him to undertake the responsibilities of marital life?'



And what if they were asked, `Was it not extremely troublesome and difficult to take care of helpless women each having several orphans? Is it consistent with the pleasure-seeking nature of a man to bear the companionship of women with varied moods and manners?'



Surely they have no choice but to admit that the Prophet was never sensual and pleasure-seeking and that they have accused him out of hostility and bigotry.



John Davenport says, 'How is it possible for a sensual man to content himself with just one wife for 25 years in such a place where polygyny was common and prevalent . [48]


THE NUMBER OF WIVES OF THE HOLY PROPHET

After Khadija passed away, when the Holy Prophet was 53 years old, he took other wives including `Aisha, Hafsa, Zaynab bint Khuzayma, Umm Salma, Sauda bint Zama, Zaynab bint Jahash, Juwayriya, Safia, Maymuna, Umm Habiba and Marya. [49]



The conditions and circumstances that necessitated the several marriages of the Prophet should be studied. The main reasons for his marriages are the following:



1. To take care of the orphans and the destitute

The Prophet took some of his wives in order to maintain the prestige and reputation they had when they previously had been living in comfort and honour but whose faith and honour were endangered due to the loss of their guardians - husbands, fathers, sons and their tribes - forcing them to abandon Islam and select polytheism and atheism. Sauda was like this. Her husband passed away in Ethiopia, where they had migrated, leaving her alone and without support. The Prophet, who had lost Khadija and had no other wife, married Sauda. [50]



Zaynab the daughter of Khuzayma was a widow who had, after her husband's death, fallen into poverty. She had always been a generous and benevolent woman, known as `the mother of the poor'. To guard her honour and reputation, the Prophet took Zaynab as his wife. She passed away in the lifetime of God's Messengers. [51] Umm Salma, too, was faithful and aged and had helpless orphans. She was another wife of our Prophet. [52]



2. To establish proper laws and customs

Another reason was to establish proper laws and customs and to nullify wrong customs and beliefs of the period of ignorance and idol-worship. At the Holy Prophet's order, Zaynab, the daughter of Jahash and the Prophet's cousin, married Zayd ibn Harith. This was an example of annuling class differences which Islam forbids. Zaynab was a grand daugher of the Quraysh chieftain Abdul Muttalib and Zayd's family were slaves. The Holy Prophet had bought his freedom. For these reasons, Zaynab considered herself superior to her husband, Zayd, thus making her marital life bitter and unbearable. No matter how much the Holy Prophet advised them, she did not change her manners, so finally Zayd, feeling no love for her any longer, divorced her. [53]



At God's command, the great Prophet of Islam married Zaynab after her husband, Zayd, had divorced her in order to wipe out the custom of not marrying the former wives of adopted sons (for they regarded their adopted sons as their real sons), which custom was unduly prevalent among the people in the dark periods of paganism. [54]



False Accusations
Some Christian writers have, in their dishonest judgments and accusatory remarks, gone so far as to claim that the Holy Prophet of Islam had fallen in love with Zaynab's beauty. This claim is so far from the truth that it is clearly rejected by all authentic histories and logical indictions because if the Prophet of Islam were a slave to his passions and entangled in such sensual thoughts, or if Zaynab were so attractive as to fascinate him, he would have fallen in love with her when she was still a maiden, when he himself was young and more vivacious, especially considering the fact that Zaynab was a close relative of his and usually relatives know about each other's beauty or lack of it.



3. To set free the slaves like Juwayriya

Juwayriya was from the famous tribe called the Bani Mustalaq who were defeated and taken captive in their fight with the Islamic forces. The Prophet married Jawayriya the daughter of Harith, who was their chief. When the Muslims observed that the captives had thus become relatives of the Prophet, they freed many of them. According to Ibn Hisham, this blessed marriage resulted in freedom for one hundred families from that tribe. [55]



4. To form friendly relations

Some marriages occurred to form friendly relations with great Arab tribes, to hinder their obstruction, and to maintain internal policy. For these reasons, the Holy Prophet of Islam married `Aisha, Hafsa, Safia, Maymuna, and Umm Habiba.


Safia was the daughter of Hayy ibn Akhtab, the head of the Bani Nazir tribe. To guard her prestige, the Prophet took her as his wife after the Jewish captives were scattered among the Muslims, thus establishing family relationships with one of the greatest Bani Israel tribes. [57]



Maymuna, whom God's Messenger married in the year 7 AH, was from the tribe of Bani Makhzum. [58] With the exception of `Aisha, most of the wives of the Holy Prophet were either widows or divorcees at , the time they were married to the Prophet and most of them had lost their beauty and youth, proving that the marriages of the Holy Prophet had been out of sacred motives and for benevolent reasons, so that no one can bring such accusations as sensuality and seeking of false pleasure against him.



[43]. Islam from the viewpoint of Voltaire, second edition, p.5.



[44]. Ibid., p.6.



[45]. The Book of Samuel, 2, section II.



[46]. The Life of Muhammad, compiled by Dr. Heykal, p.315.



[47]. Muruj ul-Dhahab, Vol. 2, p.287.



[48]. Udhri Taqsir Bih Pishgahi Muhammad wa Quran, p.35.



[49]. Bihar ul-Anwar, Vol. 22, pp.200-204.



[50]. The Life of Muhammad, compiled by Dr. Heykal, p.319.



[51]. Ibid., p.320; Bihar ul-Anwar, Vol. 22, p.203.



[52]. The Life of Muhammad, compiled -6y Dr. Heykal, p.321.



[53]. Bihar ul-Anwar, Vol. 22, pp.214-218.



[54]. See The Holy Qur'an, Sura Ahzab, Ayah 37.



[55]. Sirihi ibn Hisham, Vol. 3, p.295,



[57]. Ibid.; Musu'ati, p.345, A'lam, p.142.



[58]. Bihar ul-Anwar, Vol. 22, p.203; Sirihi ibn Hisham, p.372; Musu'ati Alenabi, p.404.

AhmedSyed
18-02-04, 06:53 AM
Non-Muslims, I think its important for you to learn from credible sources rather then Anti-Islamic trash about the truth behind all the slander aimed at the Prophet (pbuh). A year ago, I surfed Yahoo Chat--but due to the insults hurled at Muslims and the Prophet (pbuh), I quit. I noticed that while on Yahoo Chat, Non-Muslims were especially attracted to this information on the Prophet and turned it into bigoted slander.

So let us set the record straight, and eliminate these virulent allegations.

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The Young Marriage of cAishah

Mother of the Believers

Abû Imân cAbd ar-Rahmân Robert Squires

© Muslim Answers - Orlando, Florida, All Rights Reserved.



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The marriage of the Prophet Muhammad(P) to cAishah bint Abû Bakr when she was at quite a young age has been the focus of quite a bit of criticism in the West. Unfortunately, in this Neo-Colonialist Age of Smart bombs, MTV and the Big Mac, some of those who profess to be Muslims have themselves become critics. Many Muslims, faced with the juggernaut of allegedly "universal" Western liberal values that have permeated almost everyone around them, sheepishly avoid discussion of such "embarrassing" Islamic issues. It is a keenly true observation that even though the European powers have pulled their colonial armies out of Muslim lands and granted them "independence", an even worse plague continues. This curse is "Colonialism of the Mind" and it is more dangerous since it is much more subtle. Insha'Allah, this article will be a contribution to making both Muslims and non-Muslims aware of not only the objective facts regarding the Prophet's(P) marriage to cAishah, but how to understand it in light of Islam and life in the "modern" world.

Regrettably, for those of us trying to spread the truth of Islam in the West, we often have to agree with the Orientalist W. Montgomery Watt when he wrote:

Of all the world's great men none has been so much maligned as Muhammad.1

But here, for a change, were are dealing with something that is an authentic part of Islamic history, not an apocryphal or fabricated event that Westerners have been duped into believing is authentic, such as the so-called "Satanic Verses" incident. That a man in his fifties would marry such a young girl - especially a man who is supposed to be a living example of piety - is not only difficult for many "modern" Westerners to come to terms with, but it has even gone so far as to stir up disgusting "sexual misconduct" charges amongst them. In the face of such criticism, Muslims have not always reacted well. In the past century, when so many Muslims were so "Westoxicated" and ready to monkey Europeans in almost anything, the usual reaction was to deny the sources that reported the alleged "embarrassing problem". To Muslim "modernists", who argued that only a legal ruling found in the Qur'ân was Islamically valid, brushing aside this aspect of the Prophet's(P) life was rather easy. They simply denied that it had occurred and attacked the sources which reported it. Fortunately for Muslims, the apologetics of these "Uncle Toms of Islam" has faded to the periphery to a large extent. However, there are still many Muslims out there who try to get around what they see as a problem by ignoring authentic Islamic sources while claiming to be followers of the Ahl as-Sunnah. (which basically means "orthodox Sunni" Muslims, for those unfamiliar Islamic terminology). Many other Muslims possibly wonder whether the story is authentic and how to understand it if it is.

The Islamic Evidence Of cAishah's Marriage

Due to the apparent ignorance of many Muslims, possibly due to reading "modernist" apologetic literature like that mentioned above, a look at what the authentic sources of Islam say about the age at which cAishah married the Prophet(P) is in order. This way, before we move on to an analysis of the facts, we will first establish what the authentic Islamic facts are. At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of cAishah is "not found in the Qur'ân", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of both the Qur'ân and the Sunnah - and the Qur'ân tells us that. For those wanting (or needing) to learn more about the status of the Sunnah in Islam, please read An Introduction to the Sunnah, by Suhaib Hasan. Now in regards to what the authentic Islamic sources actually say, it may come as a disappointment to some "modern" and "cultured" Muslims that there are four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhârî and three ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim clearly state that cAishah was "nine years old" as the time that her marriage was consummated with the Prophet(P). These ahâdîth, with only slight variation, read as follows:

cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64)

Of the four ahâdîth in Sahîh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from cAishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abû Hishâm (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahâdîth in Sahîh Muslim have cAishah as a narrator. Additionally, all of the ahâdîth in both books agree that the marriage betrothal contract took place when cAishah was "six years old", but was not consummated until she was "nine years old". Additionally, a hadîth with the same text (matn) is reported in Sunan Abû Dâwûd. Needless to say, this evidence is - Islamically speaking - overwhelmingly strong and Muslims who deny it do so only by sacrificing their intellectual honesty, pure faith or both.

This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about cAishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old" (as if there's a reason or need to believe otherwise!?!). In spite of these facts, there are still some Muslim authors that have somehow (?) managed to push cAishah's age out to as far as "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of her marriage to the Prophet(P). It should come as no surprise, however, that none of them ever offer any proof, evidence or references for their opinions. This can be said with the utmost confidence, since certainly none of them can produce sources more authentic than the hadîth collections of Imâms al-Bukhârî and Muslim! Based on the research that I've done, I feel that there is a common source for those who claim that cAishah's age was "fourteen or fifteen years old" at the time of the marriage. This source is The Biographies of Prominent Muslims which is published in book form, on CD-ROM and is posted in several places on the Internet. Just another example of why going to the sources is important . . .

The Prophet's(P) Marriages In Perspective

To put all of this in perspective - hopefully without undue apologetics - the first thing that one should be aware of is that cAishah was the third wife of the Prophet(P), not the first. Prior to this, the Prophet's(P) first and only wife for twenty-four years was Khadijah bint al-Khuwaylid, who was about nineteen years older than him. He married Khadijah when she was forty and he was twenty-one - which might be called the years of a male's "sexual prime" - and stayed married only to her until her death. Just after Khadijah's death, when he was round forty-six years old, the Prophet(P) married his second wife Sawdah bint Zam'ah. It was after this second marriage that the Prophet(P) became betrothed to cAishah, may God be pleased with her. She was the daughter of Abû Bakr, one of the Prophet's closest friends and devoted followers. Abû Bakr, may God be pleased with him, was one of the earliest converts to Islam and hoped to solidify the deep love that existed between himself and the Prophet(P) by uniting their families in marriage. The betrothal of Abu Bakr's daughter cAishah to Muhammad(P), took place in the eleventh year of Muhammad's(P) Prophethood, which was about a year after he had married Sawdah bint Zam'ah and before he made his hijra (migration) to al-Madinah (Yathrib). As mentioned above, the marriage with cAishah bint Abû Bakr was consummated in Shawwâl, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra from Makkah to al-Medinah. At the time of his marriage to cAishah, the Prophet(P) was over fifty years old.

It should be noted about the Prophet's(P) marriage to cAishah was an exceedingly happy one for both parties, as the hadîth literature attests. cAishah, may God be please with her, was his favourite wife and the only virgin that he ever married. After emigrating to al-Madinah, Muhammad(P) married numerous other wives, eventually totaling fifteen in his lifetime. Even though we do not have time to go into the details of each one of them here, each of these marriages was done either for political reasons, to strengthen the ties of kinship or to help a woman in need. Quite a few of the wives were widows, older women or had been abandoned thus were in need of a home. Additionally, it should be mentioned that the same collection of Muslim hadîth literature that tells us that cAishah was only nine years old at the time of the marriage tells us that the marriage was Divinely ordained:

Narrated cAishah, may God be pleased with her: The Messenger of God(P) said (to me): "You have been shown to me twice in (my) dreams. A man was carrying you in a silken cloth and said to me, 'This is your wife.' I uncovered it; and behold, it was you. I said to myself, 'If this dream is from God, He will cause it to come true.'" (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 15)

Thus like everything that the Prophet(P) did, there was wisdom behind it and lessons to be learned from it. The wisdom behind such incidents provides us guidance on the basis of human morality, exposes the double standards of misguided hypocrites from other religions that criticize Islam and much more. But more on that subject below. . .

Criticism Addressed & Entertained

Myself and many other Muslims should no longer be surprised by the double standard that Christians display when they criticize the conduct of Prophet Muhammad(P) , since we've heard it for so long. To have an atheist, agnostic - or anyone else who does not believe in a Divinely revealed basis for morality - criticize something that is "politically incorrect" by today's moral standards comes as no surprise. Such people will always find something to criticize, since they simply have a bone to pick with "religion" in general. All of this "absolute morality" talk gets in the way of them having a good time, so they want to mock it, discredit it and do away with it. The criticism of Christians, however, is another matter. While it is true that Christians speak out against the "moral relativity" which is spreading amongst the increasingly secular society today, they too are unconscious victims of it. The values of most Christians today come from the humanist values of Western Europe (or, at a minimum, are heavily influenced by them). Their values do not come straight out of the Bible - in theory or in practice - regardless of what they may claim. That Christians today try to take credit for the so-called "Freedom", "Human Rights", "Democracy" and "Women's Rights" in Europe and America is nothing short of a joke. It may impress uneducated people in so-called Third World countries, but anyone who has studied history knows that these things came about in spite of the Church, not because of it. The way in which many Christians uncritically mix non-Christian values with (allegedly) Biblical values has always fascinated me. One interesting example of this is how nationalism and patriotism are supported amongst the majority of Evangelical Protestant (and even other) Christians in the United States. In America, good Christians are flag wavers. Few, if any, of these fiercely patriotic minds ever seem to realize that narrow-minded patriotism is both selfish and non-universal at its core. That patriotism and Christianity go hand-in-hand in the minds of many people is just an example of how we can be blindly sucked into "moral relativism" without even realizing it.

According to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, right and wrong are ordained by Almighty God. As such, morality does not change over time based on our whims, desires or cultural sensitivities. In cultures where there is no Divinely revealed ruling on an issue, what is right and what is wrong is determined by cultural norms. In such cases, a person would only be considered "immoral" if they violated the accepted norms of their society. As we will demonstrate, the Prophet Muhammad's(P) marriage to cAishah, viewed both in the light of Absolute Morality and the cultural norms of his time, was not an immoral act, but was an act containing valuable lessons for generations to come. Additionally, this marriage followed the norms for all Semitic peoples, including those of Biblical times. Based on this, and other information that we will provide below, it is grossly hypocritical for Christians to criticise the Prophet's(P) marriage to cAishah at such a young age. In case Christian readers are under the false impression that their values today are timeless and somehow reflect those of Biblical times, please consider the following points which are directly related to the question of at what age a person is properly ready to be married:

Keeping in mind the ideas of "political correctness" and "absolute morality", in Biblical times the age at which a girl could marry was puberty. However, during the Middle Ages it was usually twelve years old. Now in most "Christian" countries it is between fourteen and sixteen years old. I live in country where some states allow partners of the same sex to legally marry, but consider an eighteen year old boy who sleeps with a sixteen year old girl a "statutory rapist". So even though Christians might disagree with much of what is becoming all too prevalent in Western society today - whether it be drug abuse, gay marriages or abortion - they too have been swallowed up (possibly unknowingly) by the ugly monster of "moral relativism" Certainly, they might be giving in less quickly than people who have no Divine basis for their morality, but they're giving in nonetheless.

Historically, the age at which a girl was considered ready to be married has been puberty. This was the case in Biblical times, as we will discuss below, and is still used to determine the age of marriage in what the culturally arrogant West calls "primitive societies" throughout the world. As the ahâdîth about cAishah's age show, her betrothal took place at least three years before the consummation of the marriage. The reason for this was that they were waiting for her to come of age (i.e. to have her first menstrual period). Puberty as a biological sign shows that a women is capable of bearing children. Can anyone logically deny this? Part of the wisdom behind the Prophet's marriage to cAishah just after she reached puberty is to firmly establish this as a point of Islamic Law, even though it was already cultural norm in all Semitic societies (including the one Jesus(P) grew up in). The large majority of Islamic jurists say that the earliest time a marriage can be consummated is on the onset sexual maturity (bulugh), meaning puberty. Since this was the norm of all Semitic cultures and it still is the norm of many cultures today: it is certainly not something that Islam invented. However, widespread opposition to such a Divinely revealed and accepted historical norm is certainly something that is relatively new.

The criticism of Muhammad's marriage to cAishah is something relatively new in that it grew up out of the values of "Post Enlightenment" Europe. This was a Europe that had abandoned (or at least modified) its religious morality for a new set of humanist values where people used their own opinions to determine what was right and wrong. It is interesting to note that Christians from a very early time criticized (again hypocritically) the Prophet's(P) practice of polygamy, but not the marriage to cAishah. Certainly, those from a Middle Eastern Semitic background would not have found anything to criticize, since nothing abnormal or immoral took place. It is"modern" Westernized Christians who began to criticize Muhammad on this point, not earlier pre-Enlightenment ones.

It is upon reaching the age of puberty that a person, man or woman, becomes legally responsible under Islamic Law. At this point, they are allowed to make their own decisions and are held accountable for their actions. It should also be mentioned that in Islam, it is unlawful to force someone to marry someone that they do not want to marry. The evidence shows that cAishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad(P) was one which both parties and their families agreed upon. Based on the culture at that time, no one saw anything wrong with it. On the contrary, they were all happy about it.

None of the Muslim sources report that anyone from the society at that time criticized this marriage due to cAishah's young age. On the contrary, the marriage of cAishah to the Prophet(P) was encouraged by cAishah's father, Abu Bakr, and was welcomed by the community at large. It is reported that women who wanted to help the Prophet(P), such as Khawlah bint al-Hakîm, encouraged him to marry the young cAishah. Due to the Semitic culture in which they lived, they certainly saw nothing wrong with such a marriage.

Society's ideas of love, family and marriage are much different in the so-called "modern" and "civilized" West of today than they were in Biblical or Qur'ânic times. Unfortunately, many of us carry the baggage of "romantic love" and ideas about sex that have managed to poison our minds since the Europeans (and their ideas) came to dominate the globe. These ideas have not only penetrated into the minds of Muslims, but actually permeate many of them. The European colonial powers have pulled out of almost all Muslim lands, but the colonization of the minds continues! As we mentioned above, the sad part is that most people do not even realize that they are under such un-Godly influences. Just to reference the way things have changed, a statement in The New Encyclopaedia Britannica makes it clear that values regarding the proper age of marriage have been changing over the years:

. . . in the United States and parts of Europe the association of adult status with sexual maturity as expressed in the term puberty rites has been unwelcome".2

The significance that sex and sexuality are thought to play in human psychology has its roots in Freudian thought. Even though many of Freud's ideas are being heavily challenged today, many of his ideas still play a role in the thinking of many people. Sigmund Freud (1856-1939) taught that humans are basically "sexual beings" whose childhood sexual urges are the key to understanding them. He developed the methodology of psychoanalysis and his ideas on sex, repressed guilt and sexuality, the unconscious sex drive, the Oedipus complex and other ideas have come to almost haunt the Western view of sexuality (almost as much as the repressive views of the Roman Catholic Church). Needless to say, Freud's ideas have been criticized by believing Jews, Christians and Muslims since they basically deny human moral responsibility. In Freud's view of things, human beings are prisoners to the effects of unconscious forces and their sex drive. Such ideas are always welcomed by "liberals", "humanists" and others like them. The point of all this in regards to young marriage, however, might be less clear. What needs to be pointed out is the contradictory "modern" Western view of sexuality. They are taken aback by the thought of marriage at the age of puberty, even though it's an age old custom. However, they have junior high schools where sex education is taught and a society where sexually promiscuous "dating" is considered the norm. Sometimes sex is simply a natural pleasure to be enjoyed, but at other times it is a psychological demon of far reaching consequences. In short, everything from their private lives to their court systems, have fallen victim to the moral relativity of the psychiatrists and psychologists. The attitude that any experience in life can be seen as some sort of "trauma" is very widespread. Many people go through life constantly obsessed about what sort of "complex" they may be suffering from due to experiences they've had in their relatively normal life. The morality which is produced by such attitudes all but does away with human responsibility. People who are guilty of serious crimes, instead of being held responsible for their actions, are themselves considered "victims", since they are only doing what their psychological makeup causes them to do.

Puberty = Maturity = Marriage

These points having been presented, some additional details on a few of them is worthwhile. An interesting article on the age at which people married in Biblical times is Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs, by Jim West, ThD - a Baptist minister. This article states that:

The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the outset of puberty or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line;

This is just one reference to the fact that the onset of puberty was considered the age at which young people could marry. That people in Biblical times married at an early age is widely endorsed. While discussing the meaning of the word 'almah, which is the Hebrew word for "young woman" or "adolescent female", Gerald Segal says:

It should be noted, however, that in biblical times females married at an early age.3

In spite of its somewhat arrogant Western talk of "primitive cultures", An Overview of the World's Religions makes it clear that puberty is an age old symbol of adulthood:

Almost all primitive cultures pay attention to puberty and marriage rituals, although there is a general tendency to pay more attention to the puberty rites of males than of females. Because puberty and marriage symbolize the fact that children are acquiring adult roles, most primitive cultures consider the rituals surrounding these events very important. Puberty rituals are often accompanied with ceremonial circumcision or some other operation on the male genitals. Female circumcision is less common, although it occurs in several cultures. Female puberty rites are more often related to the commencement of the menstrual cycle in young girls.

Some female authors agree:

Puberty is defined as the age or period at which a person is first capable of sexual reproduction, in other eras of history, a rite or celebration of this landmark event was a part of the culture. (Rites of Passage: Puberty, by Sue Curewitz Arthen)

"Getting your period" marks a rite of passage for young girls entering womanhood. (From the Women's Resource Center)

Another contemporary reference relating marriage age to puberty is an article on Central Africa, which says:

. . . women marry soon after puberty4.

There are many other references which should prove to any intelligent person what anthropologists and historians already know: in centuries past, people were considered ready for marriage when they reached puberty.

It should be mentioned that from an Islamic point of view, many problems in society today can be traced back to the abandonment of early marriage. Due to the way that Almighty God has created man and woman, i.e., with strong sexual desires, people should marry young. In the past, this was even more true since life expectancy was very low (i.e. you were considered "old" if you made it to 40!) Not only does marriage provide a legal outlet for people with strong sexual desires, but it usually produces more children. One of the main purposes of marriage is to produce children -"be fruitful and multiply" as the Bible says (Genesis 8:17). This was especially important in the past, when people did not live as long as they do now and the infant morality rate was much higher.

The Age Of Puberty

Even though we have established that puberty has been the historical, cultural and religious norm for indicating readiness for marriage, some may wonder at which age puberty normally takes place. This is somewhat meaningless in regards to our specific discussion of Muhammad(P) and cAishah, since the hadith literature makes it clear that she had reached puberty. However, in regards to puberty and at what age most girls have their first menstrual cycle, cAbdul-Hamîd Siddiqî says:

Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions. Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the book Woman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5

Raciborski, Jaubert, Routh and many others have collected and collated statistics on the subject to which readers are referred. Marie Espino has summarised some of these data as follows: (a) The limit of age for the first appearance of menstruation is between nine and twenty-four in the temperate-zone; (b) The average age varies widely and it may be accepted as established that the nearer the Equator, the earlier the average age for menstruation.6

Additionally, an article entitled Puberty in Girls by an Australian government Public Health organization, says:

The first sign of puberty is usually a surge of growth: you become taller; your breasts develop; hair begins to grow in the pubic area and under the arms. This may start from 10 years to 14 years - even earlier for some and later for others.

An article Physical Changes in Girls During Puberty has this to say:

During puberty, a girl's body changes, inside and out, into the body of a woman. The changes don't come all at once, and they don't happen at the same time for everybody. Most girls start showing physical changes around age 11, but everyone has her own internal schedule for development. It's normal for changes to start as early as 8 or 9 years of age, or not until 13 or 14. Even if nothing looks or feels different yet, the changes may have already begun inside your body.

Many will readily agree with the information above, but still might harbour reservations about whether a marriage to an older man could be happy for such a young girl. Putting aside the modern Western notions of "happiness" for a moment, the marriage of cAishah and the Prophet(P) was a mutually happy and loving one as in expressed in numerous hadîth and seerah books. That happy marriages occur between people with a fairly large difference in ages is known among psychologists:

When the differences (in ages) is great, e.g. exceeds fifteen to twenty years, the results may be happier. The marriage of an elderly (senescent) not, of course, an old (senile) man to a quite young girl, is often very successful and harmonious. The bride is immediately introduced and accustomed to moderate sexual intercourse. 7

More Wisdom Behind It

In his comments on the ahadith in Sahîh Muslim which mention cAishah's young marriage to the Prophet(P), cAbdul-Hamîd Siddiqî shows three other reasons for this marriage:

cAishah's marriage to the Prophet Muhammad(P) at an early age allowed her to be an eyewitness to the personal details of his life and carry them on to the succeeding generations. By being both spiritually and physically near to the Prophet(P), the marriage prepared 'Aishah to be an example to all Muslims, especially women, for all times. She developed into a spiritual teacher and scholar, since she was remarkably intelligent and wise. Her qualities help support the Prophet's work and further the cause of Islam. cAishah, the Mother of the Believers, was not only a model for wives and mothers, but she was also a commentator on the Qur'ân, an authority on hadîth and knowledgeable in Islamic Law. She narrated at least 2,210 ahâdîth that give Muslims valuable insights into the Final Prophet's daily life and behaviour, thus preserving the Sunnah of Muhammad(P).

At that time, this marriage refuted the notion that a man could not marry the daughter of a man who he had declared to be his "brother" (even in the religious sense). Since the Prophet(P) and Abu Bakr had declared each other to be "brothers", this notion was done away with. This is demonstrated in the following hadîth:

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet(P) asked Abu Bakr for cAishah's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said, "But I am your brother." The Prophet(P) said, "You are my brother in God's religion and His Book, but she (cAishah) is lawful for me to marry." (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 18)

The marriage did away with the pagan Arab superstition that it was a bad omen to be married in the month of Shawwal. They thought that the month carried this omen since the word Shawwal was derived from Shaala, which carried a bad omen. The authentic ahadith indicate that the Prophet(P) and cAishah were married in this lunar month.

Not Much Ado Back Then

Above, we established the fact that getting married at puberty was an accepted practice amongst not only today's "primitive cultures", but specifically amongst the Semitic (i.e. Hebrew, Arab, Syriac, etc.) peoples of the Middle East. In order to provide additional proof that Muhammad's(P) marriage to cAishah did not raise any eyebrows at that time, I submit here quotations from two Western female scholars who have studied Islam in detail:

It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place. According to some versions, it was in the month of Shawwal of the Year 1, that is, some seven or eight months after the arrival at Medina; but, according to others, it was not until after the Battle of Badr, that is, in Shawwal of the second year of the Hijrah. In no version is there any comment made on the disparity of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not have been over ten years old and who was still much enamoured with her play."8

In the above quotation, the sources which are given for the latter are "Nawawi" and "Tabari". Both Imâms al-Nawâwî and al-Tabarî were great Muslim scholars, but their works contain material that is less than authentic by Islamic standards, which is probably the reason over her questioning which date is authentic. This is all beside the point, since we've already shown that authentic Islamic sources state that cAishah, may God be pleased with her, was "nine years old". The main point to note is that "no version" was any comment made on their age difference or on cAishah's young age. Why? Such an early marriage was normal in all Semitic societies - such as the ones that Abraham(P), Moses(P), Jesus(P) and Muhammad(P) grew up in!

Another author, Karen Armstrong, has this to add:

Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty.9

This further establishes that the marriage took place at puberty and that, as such, no eyebrows were raised. "Tabari", it should be mentioned, refers to Abû Jacfar Muhammad ibn Jarîr al-Tabarî (225-310 AH / 839-923 CE), who was a great Muslim scholar who is well known in the West for his Qur'ânic commentary and history of the world.

It is no surprise that both of the above authors agree on the fact that the marriage of cAishah and Muhammad(P) took place when the former had reached puberty and that this was normal at the time. This is no surprise, since anyone who studies the Muslim sources and Semitic culture would be forced to come to the same conclusion, since it is simply a historical fact. It should be pointed out that both of the above quoted female authors do not hesitate to misrepresent Islam (intentionally or unintentionally) in their other writings. Suffice it to say that if there was some other "damaging" information available, they would not hesitate to bring it to light. Nabia Abbott, who has done some useful research on Islam in some areas, was basically an "Orientalist" in the classic sense. Her book which was quoted above, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, is actually nothing but a disgusting second-guessing of cAishah's life. If a book with a similar mix of speculation and inauthentic sources were written about someone of significance in the West, it certainly would not be sitting on scholarly bookshelves. It has long been established that Orientalists with a bone to pick with Islam liked to decide on the authenticity of a story based on their preconceived notions. If an inauthentic story seemed to belittle the Prophet of Islam, it became oft quoted. However, any authentic material that contradicted their theories was simply ignored. It's analogous to writing a historical biography of Jesus(P) and using quotations from apocryphal gospels to override the Canonical ones whenever whimsically deemed appropriate. This is how Orientalists and Christian missionaries have been treating Muhammad(P) for centuries. For those who want to know more about this, please read our article Orientalism, Misinformation and Islam.

So What's The Verdict?

Overcoming cultural bias or admitting your own double standards is not always easy. For some people, it takes years for them to admit that they've been hypocritical. Hopefully, the thoughts presented here will plant the seed of reflection in some people so that they may reflect on the truth. Admitting that there's a problem is often half the battle, so before the reader heads off to make a final personal judgment on where they stand on this issue, I want to provide some more food for thought. Montgomery Watt, a long time scholar of Islam, had some choice words on how the West should judge Muhammad(P). I have never agreed with many of Watt's conclusions about Islam, but I have always viewed him as one of the more open-minded and open-hearted Orientalist scholars. Possibly, this is because he was more of a promoter of understanding than a narrow-minded Christian missionary. Years of studying Islam brought Watt to this conclusion:

The other main allegations of moral defect in Muhammad are that he was treacherous and lustful . . . Sufficient has been said above about the interpretation of these events to show that the case against Muhammad is much weaker than is sometimes thought. The discussions of these allegations, however, raises a fundamental question. How are we to judge Muhammad? By the standards of his own time and country? Or by those of the most enlightened opinion in the West today? When the sources are closely scrutinized, it is clear that those of Muhammad's actions which are disapproved by the modern West were not the object of the moral criticism of his contemporaries. They criticized some of his acts, but their motives were superstitious prejudice or fear of the consequences. If they criticized the events at Nakhlah, it was because they feared some punishment from the offended pagan gods or the worldly vengeance of the Meccans. If they were amazed at the mass execution of the Jews of the clan of Qurayzah, it was at the number and danger of the blood-feuds incurred. The marriage with Zaynab seemed incestuous, but this conception of incest was bound up with old practices belonging to a lower, communalistic level of familial institutions where a child's paternity was not definitely known; and this lower level was in process being eliminated by Islam . . . From the standpoint of Muhammad's time, then, the allegations of treachery and sensuality cannot be maintained. His contemporaries did not find him morally defective in any way. On the contrary, some of the acts criticized by the modern Westerner show that Muhammad's standards were higher than those of his time. In his day and generation he was a social reformer, even a reformer in the sphere of morals. He created a new system of social security and a new family structure, both of which were a vast improvement on what went before. By taking what was best in the morality of the nomad and adapting it for settled communities, he established a religious and social framework for the life of many races of men. That is not the work of a traitor or 'an old lecher'.10

From Abraham(P) To "Pick-And-Choose / Feel Good Religion"

Everything that we have discussed above logically frees Muhammad(P) from the unjust criticism that he has received (at least amongst those who can be intellectually honest and fair-minded). One point, however, still needs to be made a bit more clear. Even though we've mentioned it in passing, the hypocrisy and double standards of Christians who criticize Muhammad(P) for his morality needs to be more thoroughly analysed and exposed.

Before moving on to an analysis of Biblical morality, I would like to offer some advice and encouraging words to my fellow Muslims. My main piece of advice is to not be discouraged by slanderous attacks on Islam or how it is distorted in the media. Certainly, we all hate to see such things occur, but in the "Information Age" which was brought about by a culture that (allegedly) places a supreme value on freedom of speech, there is not much that we can do to stop it. The flip side to this coin is the fact that the Truth of Islam is still out there and people are finding it. Yes, Islam is spreading in spite of these hypocritical methods that Christians and others are using to stop it. From the "moon god" lies of Robert Morey to the almost daily distortions in the media, Islam is still spreading in the West. Actually, the fact that those who make a career out of attacking Islam, such as Christian missionaries, have to resort to lies and distortions when they discuss Islam, is a good sign. Certainly, if they discussed Islam as it was meant to be understood, they would only be hurting their own cause. When Islam is presented by non-Muslims in the West, usually matters of peripheral importance are addressed and criticised. The core beliefs of Islam, if discussed at all, are presented in a distorted manner. If Islam was just some ridiculous "Third World" religion with no appeal, they would not have to treat it this way. As a matter of fact, a great deal of the anti-Islamic literature that fills Christian bookstores (and the Internet) is not designed to convert Muslims, but to turn Westerners off to Islam. The people who write these lies are just trying to poison the minds of people so that they won't be receptive to the message of Islam when they hear it.

Their methods, however, are failing. In Europe especially, the Christian religion is in a severe state of stagnation and people are looking for truth elsewhere. Christians have always been embarrassed by their almost complete inability to convert a notable Muslim to Christianity. Certainly, they have their converts that they hold up as examples, however all of them seem to have been only nominal Muslims (at best) when they converted. However, many notable Westerners have embraced Islam, recently as well as in the past. One of the most interesting things about this is many (if not all) of these people could be called "Searchers for the Truth". By this I mean that they were the type of people who were spiritual, open-mined and read books on many subjects. They were not brainwashed simpletons who simply wanted to join an easy religion and the dominating culture of the time. They were people who knew a lot not only about religion, but about history, philosophy and other disciplines. Suffice it to say that the truth of Islam is out there, in spite of all the negative press that it gets today. The following is just one testimony that Islam is spreading in the West:

Unprecedented numbers of British people, nearly all of them women, are converting to Islam at a time of deep divisions within the Anglican and Catholic churches. The rate of conversions has prompted predictions that Islam will rapidly become an important religious force in this country . . . Within the next 20 years the number of British converts will equal or overtake the immigrant Muslim community that brought the faith here", says Rose Kendrick, a religious education teacher at a Hull comprehensive and the author of a textbook guide to the Koran. She says: "Islam is as much a world faith as is Roman Catholicism. No one nationality claims it as its own". Islam is also spreading fast on the continent and in America. (The Times , London, Tuesday, November 9th, 1993, Home-News page)

Thanks be to God that many of us who are former "pew warmers" finally decided to go out and investigate what they try to spoon feed us from the pulpit and TV. Why does Islam succeed in attracting Christians and others? Because it's the Clear Way of Abraham. No other religion today can honestly claim this! Islam isn't just a "feel good" religion where they just tell you what you want to hear and read selected verses from the Bible. Most Christians today approach religion like they do Sunday brunch: they take what they like and leave what they don't like. They have this attitude in spite of the fact that Abraham is held up in their Bible as a towering example of faith. Abraham(P), who was going to sacrifice his own son because Almighty God commanded it, certainly knew the basis of morality. It is clear in both the Bible and the Qur'ân that Abraham knew that whatever God commands is the right thing to do. However, how many Christians today can say that they honestly believe that on all issues? How many of them have reflected on the moral ramifications of what is contained in their Bible? Seemingly, not even their learned apologists who attack Islam have reflected on it too deeply!

The question "What is our basis for morality?" is an easy one for those who follow the faith of Abraham(P) - and that's what Islam is. Islam is submission to the Will of Almighty God - "We hear and we obey"- the faith of our father Abraham. If it was good enough for Abraham(P), Moses(P), Jesus(P) and Muhammad(P), then it's good enough for me! It is this truth and this attitude that attracts people to Islam. The entire basis of Islam, which produces this attitude, is Unity - the Unity of Almighty God and the unity of mankind. To be sure, the message of Islam appeals to the very nature of man. No wonder it is spreading! A Christian theologian, relatively recently, observed:

It is probable that early in the twenty-first century Islam will have become numerically the largest of the world religions. 11

Quite possibly, if you count only Sunni Muslims (which are at least 85% of Muslims), we are already the largest religion in the world when compared not to "Christians" as a whole, but to either the Orthodox, Roman Catholics or Protestants each separately.

A Case Study In Biblical Morality

Now that we've taken a detailed look at an alleged moral difficulty in the life of Muhammad(P), for the sake of balance, let's take a look at a moral difficulty in the Bible. We've already made statements above concerning the nature of Biblical morality, but many readers may be unaware of some of its "difficulties". For better or for worse, in Sunday school they generally skip the verses which we are going to deal with below. However, these verses certainly are useful tools in putting intellectually honest Christians in the same "moral dilemna" that they think Muslims should be in due to Muhammad's(P) young marriage to cAishah, may God be pleased with her. It should be kept in mind that the purpose of this discussion is the basis for morality, not the inspiration of the Bible (or lack thereof). For the purposes of this discussion, we accept the Bible "as is". However, this should not be interpreted to mean that we are endorsing it as the "Word of God" in toto. On the other hand, it should not be interpreted to mean that we are attacking the "Word of God", since we are discussing it simply because Christians consider it to be the "Word of God" (whatever their particular definition might be). For those wanting more detailed information on the Muslim view of the Bible, please click here.

The portion of the Bible that we want to look at begins with the Book of Numbers, Chapter 31, verses 17 and 18. Here, Moses(P), following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children. The order continues with the following:

". . . kill every woman who has known man by lying with him, but all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

One can only guess how the Israelites determined who the virgins were. Most probably, they did it based on age and maturity, assuming that all of the female "children" who had not reached puberty were virgins. Keep in mind that this was done, according to the Bible, on God's command to "Avenge the Israelites on the Midianites". Later, God gives Moses(P) instructions on how to divide up the booty, "whether persons, oxen, donkeys, sheeps or goats". Based on this command, "thirty-two thousand persons in all, women who had not known a man by lying with him" were divided up. This was done so that the Israelite soldiers could have these young girls "for themselves". I do not suspect that anyone reading this is either so naive or ignorant of King James English to not know what this means!

Moving along to another great example of Biblical morality, . . . in Deuteronomy 21:10-14 the Biblical "God of Love" gives the following command:

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands and thoust has taken them captive, and seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and had a desire unto her, that though would have her to thy wife, then though shalt bring her home to thine house . . . and after that you may go into her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. But if though have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go".

This should serve as sufficient proof that the morality that is taught in the Bible often is not what Christians make it out to be. In spite of what they teach in Sunday school, the above mentioned verses demonstrate the following:

* Almighty God, at least according to the Bible, ordered innocent babies to be killed; and

* He allowed young women to be forced into sex against their will.

Before moving on, it should be noted that killing women and children in war is never permitted under Islamic Law (the actions of some ignorant Muslims around the world notwithstanding). Some Christians may take issue with the words "innocent babies" above, since they believe that even babies are tainted with "Original Sin". However, this is not the topic of the discussion at hand. Suffice it to say that Biblical support for the Doctrine of Original Sin is contradictory at best. There are some verses that seem to support it, but there are others that seem to clearly deny it. One strike against "Original Sin", besides the fact that it's simply unjust, is the fact that the Jews - who read the Old Testament - never believed in it the way Christians do. But anyway . . . when faced with the problematic parts of the Old Testament, Christians react in various ways. Many offer up the ill thought out "Well-That's-in-the-Old-Testament" defense. In spite of the fact that they usually don't brush the Old Testament aside so quickly when they are being shown alleged prophecies which match Jesus(P), a few other thoughts can be presented. Some of the things that make brushing aside the Old Testament a bit more difficult (at least for Christians who want to remain intellectually honest) are:

1) the same God that "inspired" the Old Testament "inspired" the New Testament;

2) this same God is "unchanging" according to the Bible;

3) Jesus(P) in the New Testament endorses the "Law and the prophets" (i.e. the Old Testament) in several places; and

4) without the Old Testament there is no basis for Christianity.

When put in this predicament, Christians have one of two choices:

1) Stop thinking about it and fall back on a liberal "pick-and-choose" religion that just makes them "feel good" but does not answer any of life's more difficult questions; or

2) Accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible "as is".

There are Christians out there who claim to accept the Divinely Revealed morality of the Bible. They understand what's at stake and the issues at hand. If people are allowed to whimsically decide what is right and what is wrong, there would be chaos. Just as importantly, if people decide what is "God's Word" and what is not His word based on their preconceived notions and "modern" sensibilities, nothing would be left of the Bible. As such, there are Christians who, in principle, say that killing babies is "moral" as long as God clearly commands it. For someone who understands the nature of Divinely Revealed morality, we would have to agree in principle but with certain reservations. As mentioned above, Almighty God - according to Islam - never commands the killing of innocent children. That is one "difficulty" that I am glad that Muslims don't have to explain their way out of! Killing babies is okay as long as God commands it!?! So much for having Christians as baby-sitters!

The bottom line is that morality comes from Almighty God and from Him alone. However, if ones studies the Bible, it is plain to see that it is not a foundation for morality. The examples above are just a few that can be provided from both the Old and the New Testament. The people who promote "Biblical morality" pick and choose from the text as they please. Only in Islam can one with good conscience accept "the whole package" without ignorantly or hypocritically denying things that they don't like. This is how true internal peace and balance are achieved. If one belongs to a religion without accepting everything in its scripture (real or alleged) one is not only bearing false witness against oneself but against God Himself. With all the false ideas in the modern age, it's easy to be lead astray. The liberal Western morality that has now touched all corners of the globe is, culturally speaking, something like an eight-hundred pound gorilla. It's very hard to stand in its way or speak out against it. However, being encouraged by others to follow "vain desires" has been an eternal problem for mankind, as Almighty God makes clear in the Qur'ân:



Say: 'I will not follow your vain desires: if I did I would stray from the path and be not of the company of those who receive guidance.'
[Qur'ân - Surah al-An'aam - 6:56]

Guideposts To Be Thankful For

The Prophet Muhammad(P) was a great example for all of humanity and peoples of different cultures (from "modern" Europeans to the aborigines of Australia). Not only was he a great Prophet and Messenger, but he was also a statesman, military leader, ruler, teacher, neighbor and friend. Family life was one of the most important areas where he was a great example, since he was both a husband and a father. Due to God's wisdom, His last and final prophet experienced a wide array of marriages and family situations. Due to this, he is an example for people who are monogamous, for those who are polygamous, for those wishing to marry those older than themselves and for those wondering how early someone can rightfully marry. Muhammad(P) reestablished the Religion of Abraham(P) so that it would continue to the Last Day.

As Muslims, we should be thankful for these guideposts in our moral journey through life. Reflecting on them aids us in avoiding being led astray into "moral relativism". This is a very dangerous thing, since it can lead to the worst of all sins - associating others with Almighty God in worship, belief and/or Lordship. By knowing the Prophet's(P) life we can see how to stay within the boundaries laid by Almighty God and stay on the Natural Religion of Islam which was made to suit the natural disposition (fitrah) of mankind. I pray that we, as Muslims, make Almighty God's limits our limits, and that we are not influenced by other societies and cultures. If it was good enough for Abraham(P) and Moses(P), then it's good enough for me . . .

That's the way I see it, but God knows best . . .



Related Articles

Muhammad(P) & Lies

Islamic Awareness Polemics The Young Marriage Of 'Aishah




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


References

1 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad at Medina, Oxford University Press, 1956.

2 "Rites and Ceremonies", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 26, page 850.

3 Gerald Sigal, The Jew and the Christian Missionary, Ktav Publishing House,1981, page 28.

4 "Central Africa", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 15, page 646. See also "Aboriginal Australia", The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th Edition (1987), Volume 14, page 425. For additional references to the marriage customs in Biblical times, see Israel: Its Life and Culture, by Johannes Pedersen, Volume 1, page 60ff.

5 Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.

6 English-translation of Sahih Muslim, Volume 2, International Islamic Publishing House, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, page 715.

7 Theodor H. Vandevelde, Ideal Marriage : Its Physiology and Technique, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1980, p. 243.

8 Nabia Abbott, Aishah-The Beloved of Mohammed, Al-Saqi Books, London, 1985, page 7.

9 Karen Armstrong, Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992, page 157.

10 W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman, Oxford University Press, 1961, page 229.

11 John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, Westminster/John Knox Press, 1993, page 87.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

Sultan
18-02-04, 11:43 AM
What the islamophobes fail to confront are the facts that many christian monarchs married child-brides well into the 18th century.

Even the jews married girls at a very young age.

Fletcher
18-02-04, 12:08 PM
"Some 'Christian' monarchs" is very different from the supposed final prophet of God.

Sultan
18-02-04, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Fletcher
"Some 'Christian' monarchs" is very different from the supposed final prophet of God.


The point is, you cannot judge the past through the lense of modern day social norms. Marrying childbrides in the past was very common in Europe. Just because these things don't happen now, does not make it a sin.

Now you tell me where in the bible it is forbidden to marry a young girl. And I am not talking about sex-just marriage.

Even a BBC documentary that was aired a couple of years claimed that Mary was pregnant with Jesus(saw) at the age of NINE!

ze leetle elper
18-02-04, 02:27 PM
Actually I read a piece which stated that the marriage was not actually consumated until she was 19 years old. :scratch:

What the researchers had done was look at the dates and work their way back, to this conclusion. :confused:

I'll see if I can dig it up again.

Kaaju Barfi
18-02-04, 02:43 PM
sorry to say this but i feel ths islamophobes are moronic jackasses. they on the hand insult sayyiduna muhammad[saws] for marrying bibi aisha[raa] at an early age , considering that wre the traditionas at the time, but have no words on gay marriages which has been condemned in their holy book. the islamophobes have no case.

Fletcher
18-02-04, 05:27 PM
The point is, you cannot judge the past through the lense of modern day social norms. Marrying childbrides in the past was very common in Europe. Just because these things don't happen now, does not make it a sin.

I agree

Now you tell me where in the bible it is forbidden to marry a young girl. And I am not talking about sex-just marriage.

Why? I never said it was wrong, nor did I say that the Bible says its wrong. You're building an argument out of nothing here.

Even a BBC documentary that was aired a couple of years claimed that Mary was pregnant with Jesus(saw) at the age of NINE!

I think that the generally accepted age was 13 - 14 however that's irrelevant. My point was that a comparison of some 'Christian' monarchs with Mohammed is silly. You might as well compare Jesus to some Aztec ruler, or Moses to Ghengis Khan. Irrelevant.

*********************************

sorry to say this but i feel ths islamophobes are moronic jackasses. they on the hand insult sayyiduna muhammad[saws] for marrying bibi aisha[raa] at an early age , considering that wre the traditionas at the time, but have no words on gay marriages which has been condemned in their holy book. the islamophobes have no case.

What are you talking about you ignorant arrogant fool??? There are many many Christians who stand up against gay marriages and homosexual practices, often in the face of persecution from the secular world.

1) just coz someone calls themselves a 'Christian,’ or has Christian parents, or is born in the West, they are not necessarily a 'Christian.' Would a person be a 'Muslim' if they didn't believe in Mohammed’s prophethood or the message of the Qur’an?
2) Just because the C of E or any denomination decides something, this does not reflect the views of all Christians, or even all Anglicans. Nation of Islam... Muslims or not?
3) Yes, some islamophobes get things wrong and believe the wrong things about Islam, Muslims and Mohammed etc, but do you believe that Christiophobes or Muslims and non-Christians in general are any different? Isn't Islamophobe (lit. Islam-hater) a strong word, since most of the people I imagine you have in mind just do not believe Islam, rather than hating it? Why is it that anyone who disagrees with Muslims is an Islamophobe?

fides
18-02-04, 05:46 PM
And what does "modern" Sharia say about the legal age of marriage?

AhmedSyed
18-02-04, 10:09 PM
I can see that we are going off on a tangent already.

Lets stay on course and not discuss the ideals of the so-called European Enlightment.

-offtopic: :banghead:

mohabdul
19-02-04, 03:07 AM
We as Muslims must understand that the dis-Believers' problem with Aisha's marriage or any one of his other wives are not the real problem, but the essence of their problem is believing in the Qur'an and Muhammad (saw) period.

It is useless for Muslims and a waist of time to try to get into discussions with the dis-Believers so that they can see the validity and the merit of the marriages of the Prophet (saw).

Allah (swt) tells Muhammad (saw) in the Qur'an that it is not him that they (dis-Believers) have a problem with, but it His Ayahs (meaning the Qur'an) that they have a problem with and deny it.

The ones who chose not to believe in Muhammad (saw) woundn't believe even if he never married at all. Allah (swt) tells us:


43:24 He said: "What! Even if I brought you better guidance than that which ye found your fathers following?" They said: "For us, we deny that ye (prophets) are sent (on a mission at all)."

Surah az-Zukhruf

AbuMubarak
19-02-04, 11:03 PM
http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm

reachin'out
19-02-04, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by ze leetle elper
Actually I read a piece which stated that the marriage was not actually consumated until she was 19 years old. :scratch:

What the researchers had done was look at the dates and work their way back, to this conclusion. :confused:

I'll see if I can dig it up again.
It's at the beginning of this thread, Ze. mauwiyya posted it. But it doesn't hold water. The hadeeth are clear on the age of Aisha at nikah and at consumation.

Jamilah

txpiper
20-02-04, 09:12 AM
Being sexually attracted to a six-year-old is not virtuous. It is ugly.

AbuMubarak
30-05-04, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by EVILution
I read that Hazrat Fatima (ra) were 15 and Hazrat Ali (ra) were 21 when they were first married! this is also what i have read

i have never heard that fatimah was 9

aa'isha, yes, she was 9

but fatimah?

wallahu a'lim

AbuMubarak
10-09-04, 03:51 PM
In Defense of My Beloved



Since the atrocities of 9/11/01 the world has witnessed the
increasingly malicious onslaught and attacks made by many followers
of the Christian faith – in particular the Evangelicals – against
Islam, Muslims, and The All-Merciful's beloved, Muhammad – may Allah
bless and grant him peace.



The most vicious and malicious of those attacks directed against him
has been the accusation that he was a pedophile1, i.e. a child
molester. This is due to the well-known fact that one of his
wives, `Aisha – may Allah be pleased with her, was only 6 years of
age when he contracted marriage to her, and she was only 92 when he
consummated it.



To date, there have been a number of defenses of our beloved
Messenger focusing mainly on the fact that menstruation and puberty
are signs of adulthood and accountability, and as a result the
Prophet (pbuh) did nothing wrong in marrying such a young girl.



But, attempting to justify what appears to be a gross and deplorable
happening and engagement of a holy prophet – may peace be on all of
them – to a people accustomed to only seeing good or evil from their
own specific paradigm can be one of the most difficult tasks that the
modern-day Muslim has on his/her shoulders.



How do you justify a marriage occurring between a minor and a senior?
How do you even justify the marriage between an 18-year-old woman and
a 40, 50, or 60-year-old man?

In this essay I'll attempt to present an argument to both Muslims and
non-Muslims alike, which will hopefully be easier to digest than the
mere argument about menstruation being the age when a girl/woman can
give birth.



But despite my attempts, the main objective is not to appease those
who have rejected the faith, or even convince them. It is just to
give a more balanced look at the topic, and to offer a number of
important points to consider before one launches accusations of
decadence and immorality at a Messenger of the Creator of the
Universe.



I pray that God will grant me the success in fully clarifying what
others before have not been able to.



The Age of Marriage in Islam


Islam holds the view that prior to the age of puberty, no male or
female child is subject to God's reward3 or punishment for performing
or abandoning any of the religious burdens. This also means that – as
a general rule – a child who is pubescent can also execute or
participate in a number of activities particular to adults who have
reached the age of full maturity. This includes marriage.4



Allah says, ((And those of your women who are in despair over (the
return of) monthly cycles – if you (men) are in doubt, then their
waiting periods (from divorce) are three lunar months, and the same
is for those who don't have a monthly cycle)) [Talaq: 4].



This verse indicates that it is permitted for young ladies who
haven't reached puberty to marry. This is taken from Allah's
statement ((…and the same is for those who don't have a monthly
cycle)). In other words, the same waiting period of three lunar
months after a divorce as assigned to women who have entered
menopause is the same for those girls who haven't begun their
menstrual cycles but are divorced.

But despite this general rule and what even many Muslims generally
misunderstand about the marriage of youths and what puberty
indicates, this doesn't mean that a child is given the same degree of
responsibility as full-grown adults.

For instance, those who have not reached full maturity are not given
full reign over their monetary transactions and contracts until they
show that they are mature enough to manage their own wealth. Allah
says,



((Give not unto the foolish (what is in) your (keeping of their)
wealth, which Allah hath given you to maintain; but feed them and
clothe them from it, and speak kindly unto them)) [Nisa: 5].



He also says, ((Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age;
then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their
fortune)) [Nisa: 6].



We learn from this that a child cannot independently initiate a
contract before or after puberty without the authorization of its
legal guardian or until they reach the age of full maturity unless
they show signs of carelessness and mismanagement of their wealth. In
this case, their expenditures will be limited and supervised even if
they've reached full adulthood.5



As for marriage, a child cannot initiate the contract on his/her own
accord, but his/her guardian may do it as long as such a contract
doesn't bring greater harm than benefit to the child.



An example of a marriage when one is a minor that might bring more
harm than benefit to the child is when the girl isn't physically fit
enough to withstand the sexual thrust of a man.



For this reason, many scholars hold the view that a minor girl can
only be married whether before or after puberty if and only if she is
developed enough to withstand a man's sexual thrust. If not, she
cannot be married off. And the case of `Aisha was that she was fit
for this, especially since she was raised in a society where
womanhood was reached at a much earlier age than it is in many
societies today.

















The Prophet's Marriage to `Aisha



Imam Muslim reports on the authority of `Aisha – may Allah be pleased
with her – that she said,



"The Messenger of Allah – may Allah bless and grant him peace –
married me at six years of age. And he consummated (the marriage)
with me when I was nine years of age."



As for the day the marriage was consummated, `Aisha relates the
following,



"Then we arrived in Medinah. And I fell extremely ill from fever for
a month. Then, (when I improved) my hair had grown (back) to ear's
length. Then Umm Ruwaman6 came to me while I was on a seesaw with my
friends, and she called out (to me). So I went to her – not knowing
what she wanted with me. Then she took hold of my hand and sat me at
the door. Then I said: `ehha ehha7 until I caught my breath. Then she
put me in a room, when suddenly (I saw) some of the women of the
Ansar. They said: "With good, blessing, and good fortune." Then she
handed me over to them. They washed my hair and beautified me. And
nothing caught me by surprised but the sudden entrance of the
Messenger of Allah – may Allah bless and grant him peace. Then they
handed me over to him."





`Aisha also said,



"The Messenger of Allah – may Allah bless and grant him peace –
married me in Shawwal. And he consummated with me in Shawwal. So
which of the wives of Allah's messenger – may Allah bless and grant
him peace – enjoyed more favor with him than I?"

















The Lessons Taken from This Marriage



Based upon the aforementioned reports, we deduce the following
lessons:



Islam doesn't consider it a sin for a senior to marry a minor as long
as such a marriage happens with the approval of the parents, and as
long as such a marriage doesn't bring any harm on the girl.
The Prophet's union with `Aisha was a marriage approved and witnessed
by her parents. So there was no molestation involved. Never did the
Prophet kiss, fondle, or touch her in any sexual fashion in a
secluded area without the prior permission of her parents to marry
her. As for molesters and pedophiles, their custom is to seek secrecy
with minors in order to commit the offenses they customarily commit
against minors. So the accusation of him being a pedophile is
disproved.
The Arabs around the Prophet (pbuh) didn't consider the marriage of a
minor girl to a senior to be objectionable. What stresses this point
is the general excitement displayed by `Aisha's mother and the women
of the Ansar over the said union. Otherwise, the Prophet's staunchest
enemies would have been the first to speak out against his doing as
they objected to him marrying the ex-wife of his adopted son, Zayd.
And since there was no objection, we know that he didn't do anything
strange or out of the ordinary in their view.
`Aisha also approved of her marriage to the Prophet – may Allah bless
and grant him peace, and didn't consider herself taken advantage of.
This is shown through the fact that she boasted of her being married
and losing her virginity in Shawwal, and using it as an indication
that she was the most favored of his wives. And this statement was
made after the Prophet's death when `Aisha had grown into a fully
mature woman.




























Who or What is the Criterion for Defining Good and Evil?



Now, after having a look at the reports about the marriage, a
legitimate question for one to ask is, `What is wrong with a man in
his fifties marrying a six or nine year old girl?' In other
words, `Why is it a sin?' The next question would be, `Who or what
determined it to be a sin?'



As people of religion and scripture, Muslims, Jews, and Christians
alike are supposed to be guided by the words of God. This means that
if anything is a sin, it is because God said so.



As people who don't take guidance from scripture, good and evil are
judged based either on the rules defined by government and societal
norms, or based on what we as individuals conjure up in our own minds
to be good or evil. Many of us may even define good as `whatever
brings me comfort and benefit' and evil as `whatever brings me grief,
suffering, and harm.'



So, again, the question, `Why is the marriage of a senior to a minor
a sin?' Did God declare it to be a sin in either the Koran or the
Bible? Unequivocally and absolutely not!



If this is so, then why do Christians lambaste our beloved Prophet
for marrying a minor? Did Jesus say it was a sin? Did Moses declare
it to be a sin? Did David or Solomon declare it to be a sin? Did any
of the Koranic or Biblical personages mention explicitly or
implicitly that the marriage of a senior to a minor is a sin? The
answers are obvious.



Next, we move to the cultural basis for condemning our Prophet
Muhammad – peace and blessings of Allah be upon him. Why is it a
crime according to societal norms and common law for a senior to
marry a minor?



The response to this question is either for fear that the older man
will take advantage of the innocence and naivety of the young girl or
woman, or that it is just because this is something that we as a
society don't usually do.



If we accept the first justification that gives consideration to the
welfare of the young woman or girl, we can all agree that this is a
legitimate fear. So anytime it is feared that a young girl will be
harmed from being in an intimate relationship with an older man or
senior, measures should be taken to ensure that the young girl isn't
harmed.



But what if measures can be taken to ensure that she won't be harmed
by such a relationship? Would it then be enough justification for
such a marriage? What if the parents of the girl who take into
consideration the good character and standing of the potential groom
arrange the marriage?



What if there are those who propose to the potential groom as opposed
to him making the proposal or even overstepping his bounds by taking
advantage of a moment of seclusion with the girl in order to molest
her?



So what true basis does anyone have to condemn Muhammad and accuse
him of pedophilia or child molestation? There was no molestation
involved. So he was not a pedophile.



As for those who condemn such a marriage simply because it is not
what most of us customarily do in our society, can we really consider
custom and cultural norms to be a legitimate basis for condemnation?
Consider the following:



Cultural and social norms are not characterized by stability and
permanence, and they change with the change of time. What is accepted
in one time or place is not acceptable in another time or place.
The final judge of the appropriateness and inappropriateness of a
person's actions in cultural and social norms is the whims, lusts,
and fancies of the overwhelming majority of the members of a society
or it is influenced by the decrees, dictates, and regulations of
government.







Examples of things that show the volatile nature of cultural and
social norms are:



The sale of wine and alcoholic beverages was strictly prohibited in
the US all the way up to the early part of the 20th century. Soon
after, it was declared to be legal. Social norms and government
regulations is what helped in changing the way it was viewed. So is
this a valid criterion for judging good and evil?
Not long ago, homosexuality was considered an abomination in America
and elsewhere. But now, the State of Massachusetts allows same-sex
marriages, and other states are planning to pass legislation in
support of same sex marriages. So is homosexuality good or evil?
Which verdict is correct? The old one or the new one?
Fornication and adultery were also considered intolerable. But
nowadays, most people in our society encourage fornication and accept
it as normal and praiseworthy behavior to the point that virginity is
viewed with disdain.
In the past, the institution of slavery and the sale of slaves were
universally acknowledged as an acceptable practice. But today in most
parts of the world it has been abolished and is looked upon as a
practice and institution worthy of the most severe form of censure
and rebuke. So which ruling is correct? The one that says that
slavery is praiseworthy and justified or the one that says it is
deplorable?



These are just a few examples of how cultural and social norms change
according to what people come to accept as being good or bad. So the
criterion is merely what people come to accept or reject. If this is
the case, then cultural and social norms cannot be the basis for
determining whether or not a senior being married to a minor is an
evil practice or a sin.



This is the case, especially for those who hold the view that good is
what brings you benefit and evil is what brings you harm. If this is
the case, then rape, theft, and burglary would be good, since it
would bring me benefit despite the fact that it would bring harm to
my victims, in whose case these things would be considered evil from
the victim's regard, since they bring harm.



And even for people who believe in scripture, this idea should not be
hard to understand, especially since all monotheistic scriptural
religions believe that there was a time that God allowed marriage
between brothers and sisters, a thing that is today considered to be
incest. But for those who believe in scripture, this can be justified
by the fact that God has the right to change the rules of right and
wrong as he sees fit.



So nothing is inherently evil, just as nothing is inherently good.
God is the best judge of that, since it is He who created the world
and all that is deemed good and evil within it.



Another example is the permissibility of marriage between cousins.
Despite the fact that no scripture forbids marriage between cousins,
most people in the US look upon such a marriage as being incest. But
where does this understanding come from? What criterion was used to
arrive at the conclusion that this is an incestuous marriage?



Similarly, almost every Muslim woman involved in a marriage of
polygany has no desire to be a partner in it in spite of the fact
that she knows its permissibility in Islam. But does that dislike
make the act impermissible or a sin?



Conclusion


Cultural norms and customs cannot be used as the criterion for
judging the rightness or wrongness of an action. And that includes
the marriage between a senior and a minor, viz. the marriage of the
Prophet Muhammad – may Allah bless and grant him peace – to the
Mother of the Faithful, `Aisha – may Allah be pleased with her.



Many times we cannot easily perceive the extent of our influence by
cultural norms. And as people of scripture who base our lives on
divine revelation, we may many times dislike a thing, even though God
may not dislike it. And we may at times like a thing that God abhors.
When we realize the dichotomy in our paradigms, it is our duty to
correct these contradictions. Otherwise, what is the degree of our
sincerity?



And as people who judge by societal norms, we must also understand
the volatile nature of those norms and the carnal bases of many of
their incentives, and as such they cannot be used as a basis for
judging between good and evil in our everyday lives. But only God has
the right to forbid and allow. For He is the Creator of all, and the
best knower of what is a benefit or harm for His creature.



Abdullah bin Hamid Ali

Imam, SCI Chester State Correctional Facility

Chester, PA (USA)








1 The legal definition of a pedophile doesn't apply to the Prophet –
may Allah bless and grant him peace – and those who assail the
Prophet's character with this accusation intentionally or
unintentionally do so by taking advantage of the personal culturally
and societal shaped biases of the western populous and their
ignorance of the proper meanings of such terms.

The American Psychiatric Association defines Pedophilia:



A pedophile is a person who over at least a 6 month period has
recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or
behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or
children (age 13 years or younger). The fantasies, sexual urges, or
behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in
social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. The
person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children. Not to include an individual in late adolescence
involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12 or 13 year old
(straight or gay). Individuals with pedophilia generally report an
attraction to children of a particular age range. Some individuals
prefer males, others prefer females, and some are aroused by both
males and females. Pedophila involving female victims is reported
more than pedophilia involving male victims.




2 This is according to the soundest of reports. There are other
reports and opinions that place her age a several years older prior
to consummation.




3 Some scholars hold the view that if a child prays or performs any
of the religious burdens of Islam before reaching puberty, he/she is
rewarded for it but not punished for abandoning it.




4 What is odd is that one would argue that a child is too young to
marry due to irresponsibility but that he/she is old enough to have
sexual intercourse.




5 The view of Abu Hanifa is that once a person reaches the age of 25,
he/she is given full reign over his/her wealth regardless of the
signs of carelessness and mismanagement unless the person is insane.




6 Umm Ruwaman was `Aisha's mother.




7 Meaning, that she panted from being out of breath.


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faqir
18-09-04, 08:03 PM
As-Salaamu-Alaikum

Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali tackles one of the most
controversial issues confronting Muslims today. Did the Prophet
(saws) marry A'isha (ra) at the age of six and consumate the
marriage at 9? What is the legal ruling in Islam on marriage to
what would be considered today minor children? How does Ustadh
Abdullah respond to the vile charge that the Prophet (saws) was a
pedophile?

Please read this article by for answers to these questions and
more!

For more articles from Ustadh Abdullah please go to our website:

http://lamppostproductions.org (http://lamppostproductions.org/)

You can also send your questions to Ustadh Abdullah at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tariqul-Islam (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tariqul-Islam)


Was-Salaam Khalil Muhsin


In Defense of My Beloved

Since the atrocities of 9/11/01 the world has witnessed the
increasingly malicious onslaught and attacks made by many followers
of the Christian faith, in particular the Evangelicals,against
Islam, Muslims, and The All-Merciful's beloved, Muhammad (may Allah
bless and grant him peace.)

The most vicious and malicious of those attacks directed against him
has been the accusation that he was a pedophile[1], i.e. a child
molester. This is due to the well-known fact that one of his
wives, `Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), was only 6 years of
age when he contracted marriage to her, and she was only 92 when he
consummated it.

To date, there have been a number of defenses of our beloved
Messenger focusing mainly on the fact that menstruation and puberty
are signs of adulthood and accountability, and as a result the
Prophet (pbuh) did nothing wrong in marrying such a young girl.

But, attempting to justify what appears to be a gross and deplorable
happening and engagement of a holy prophet (peace be upon all of
them)to a people accustomed to only seeing good or evil from their
own specific paradigm can be one of the most difficult tasks that the
modern-day Muslim has on his/her shoulders.

How do you justify a marriage occurring between a minor and a senior?
How do you even justify the marriage between an 18-year-old woman and
a 40, 50, or 60-year-old man?

In this essay I'll attempt to present an argument to both Muslims and
non-Muslims alike, which will hopefully be easier to digest than the
mere argument about menstruation being the age when a girl/woman can
give birth.

But despite my attempts, the main objective is not to appease those
who have rejected the faith, or even convince them. It is just to
give a more balanced look at the topic, and to offer a number of
important points to consider before one launches accusations of
decadence and immorality at a Messenger of the Creator of the
Universe.

I pray that God will grant me the success in fully clarifying what
others before have not been able to.



The Age of Marriage in Islam


Islam holds the view that prior to the age of puberty, no male or
female child is subject to God's reward[3] or punishment for
performing
or abandoning any of the religious burdens. This also means that,as
a general rule, a child who is pubescent can also execute or
participate in a number of activities particular to adults who have
reached the age of full maturity. This includes marriage.[4]

Allah says, (And those of your women who are in despair over (the
return of) monthly cycles if you (men) are in doubt, then their
waiting periods (from divorce) are three lunar months, and the same
is for those who don't have a monthly cycle)) [Talaq: 4].



This verse indicates that it is permitted for young ladies who
haven't reached puberty to marry. This is taken from Allah's
statement (and the same is for those who don't have a monthly
cycle)). In other words, the same waiting period of three lunar
months after a divorce as assigned to women who have entered
menopause is the same for those girls who haven't begun their
menstrual cycles but are divorced.

But despite this general rule and what even many Muslims generally
misunderstand about the marriage of youths and what puberty
indicates, this doesn't mean that a child is given the same degree of
responsibility as full-grown adults.

For instance, those who have not reached full maturity are not given
full reign over their monetary transactions and contracts until they
show that they are mature enough to manage their own wealth. Allah
says,



((Give not unto the foolish (what is in) your (keeping of their)
wealth, which Allah hath given you to maintain; but feed them and
clothe them from it, and speak kindly unto them)) [Nisa: 5].


He also says, ((Prove orphans till they reach the marriageable age;
then, if ye find them of sound judgment, deliver over unto them their
fortune)) [Nisa: 6].

We learn from this that a child cannot independently initiate a
contract before or after puberty without the authorization of its
legal guardian or until they reach the age of full maturity unless
they show signs of carelessness and mismanagement of their wealth. In
this case, their expenditures will be limited and supervised even if
they've reached full adulthood.[5]


As for marriage, a child cannot initiate the contract on his/her own
accord, but his/her guardian may do it as long as such a contract
doesn't bring greater harm than benefit to the child.

An example of a marriage when one is a minor that might bring more
harm than benefit to the child is when the girl isn't physically fit
enough to withstand the sexual thrust of a man.

For this reason, many scholars hold the view that a minor girl can
only be married whether before or after puberty if and only if she is
developed enough to withstand a man's sexual thrust. If not, she
cannot be married off. And the case of `Aisha was that she was fit
for this, especially since she was raised in a society where
womanhood was reached at a much earlier age than it is in many
societies today.


The Prophet's Marriage to `Aisha



Imam Muslim reports on the authority of `Aisha (may Allah be pleased
with her)that she said,

"The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless and grant him peace)
married me at six years of age. And he consummated (the marriage)
with me when I was nine years of age."

As for the day the marriage was consummated, `Aisha relates the
following:

"Then we arrived in Medinah. And I fell extremely ill from fever for
a month. Then, (when I improved) my hair had grown (back) to ear's
length. Then Umm Ruwaman6 came to me while I was on a seesaw with my
friends, and she called out (to me). So I went to her ?not knowing
what she wanted with me. Then she took hold of my hand and sat me at
the door. Then I said: `ehha ehha[7] until I caught my breath. Then
she put me in a room, when suddenly (I saw) some of the women of the
Ansar. They said: "With good, blessing, and good fortune." Then she
handed me over to them. They washed my hair and beautified me. And
nothing caught me by surprised but the sudden entrance of the
Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless and grant him peace). Then they
handed me over to him."


`Aisha also said,

"The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless and grant him peace)
married me in Shawwal. And he consummated with me in Shawwal. So
which of the wives of Allah's messenger(may Allah bless and grant
him peace) enjoyed more favor with him than I?"

The Lessons Taken from This Marriage

Based upon the aforementioned reports, we deduce the following
lessons:

Islam doesn't consider it a sin for a senior to marry a minor as long
as such a marriage happens with the approval of the parents, and as
long as such a marriage doesn't bring any harm on the girl.
The Prophet's union with `Aisha was a marriage approved and witnessed
by her parents. So there was no molestation involved. Never did the
Prophet kiss, fondle, or touch her in any sexual fashion in a
secluded area without the prior permission of her parents to marry
her. As for molesters and pedophiles, their custom is to seek secrecy
with minors in order to commit the offenses they customarily commit
against minors. So the accusation of him being a pedophile is
disproved.

The Arabs around the Prophet (pbuh) didn't consider the marriage of a
minor girl to a senior to be objectionable. What stresses this point
is the general excitement displayed by `Aisha's mother and the women
of the Ansar over the said union. Otherwise, the Prophet's staunchest
enemies would have been the first to speak out against his doing as
they objected to him marrying the ex-wife of his adopted son, Zayd.
And since there was no objection, we know that he didn't do anything
strange or out of the ordinary in their view.

`Aisha also approved of her marriage to the Prophet ?may Allah bless
and grant him peace, and didn't consider herself taken advantage of.
This is shown through the fact that she boasted of her being married
and losing her virginity in Shawwal, and using it as an indication
that she was the most favored of his wives. And this statement was
made after the Prophet's death when `Aisha had grown into a fully
mature woman.


Who or What is the Criterion for Defining Good and Evil?

Now, after having a look at the reports about the marriage, a
legitimate question for one to ask is, `What is wrong with a man in
his fifties marrying a six or nine year old girl?' In other
words, `Why is it a sin?' The next question would be, `Who or what
determined it to be a sin?'

As people of religion and scripture, Muslims, Jews, and Christians
alike are supposed to be guided by the words of God. This means that
if anything is a sin, it is because God said so.

As people who don't take guidance from scripture, good and evil are
judged based either on the rules defined by government and societal
norms, or based on what we as individuals conjure up in our own minds
to be good or evil. Many of us may even define good as `whatever
brings me comfort and benefit' and evil as `whatever brings me grief,
suffering, and harm.'

So, again, the question, `Why is the marriage of a senior to a minor
a sin?' Did God declare it to be a sin in either the Koran or the
Bible? Unequivocally and absolutely not!

If this is so, then why do Christians lambaste our beloved Prophet
for marrying a minor? Did Jesus say it was a sin? Did Moses declare
it to be a sin? Did David or Solomon declare it to be a sin? Did any
of the Koranic or Biblical personages mention explicitly or
implicitly that the marriage of a senior to a minor is a sin? The
answers are obvious.

Next, we move to the cultural basis for condemning our Prophet
Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). Why is it a
crime according to societal norms and common law for a senior to
marry a minor?

The response to this question is either for fear that the older man
will take advantage of the innocence and naivety of the young girl or
woman, or that it is just because this is something that we as a
society don't usually do.

If we accept the first justification that gives consideration to the
welfare of the young woman or girl, we can all agree that this is a
legitimate fear. So anytime it is feared that a young girl will be
harmed from being in an intimate relationship with an older man or
senior, measures should be taken to ensure that the young girl isn't
harmed.

But what if measures can be taken to ensure that she won't be harmed
by such a relationship? Would it then be enough justification for
such a marriage? What if the parents of the girl who take into
consideration the good character and standing of the potential groom
arrange the marriage?

What if there are those who propose to the potential groom as opposed
to him making the proposal or even overstepping his bounds by taking
advantage of a moment of seclusion with the girl in order to molest
her?

So what true basis does anyone have to condemn Muhammad and accuse
him of pedophilia or child molestation? There was no molestation
involved. So he was not a pedophile.

As for those who condemn such a marriage simply because it is not
what most of us customarily do in our society, can we really consider
custom and cultural norms to be a legitimate basis for condemnation?
Consider the following:

Cultural and social norms are not characterized by stability and
permanence, and they change with the change of time. What is accepted
in one time or place is not acceptable in another time or place.
The final judge of the appropriateness and inappropriateness of a
person's actions in cultural and social norms is the whims, lusts,
and fancies of the overwhelming majority of the members of a society
or it is influenced by the decrees, dictates, and regulations of
government.

Examples of things that show the volatile nature of cultural and
social norms are:

The sale of wine and alcoholic beverages was strictly prohibited in
the US all the way up to the early part of the 20th century. Soon
after, it was declared to be legal. Social norms and government
regulations is what helped in changing the way it was viewed. So is
this a valid criterion for judging good and evil?
Not long ago, homosexuality was considered an abomination in America
and elsewhere. But now, the State of Massachusetts allows same-sex
marriages, and other states are planning to pass legislation in
support of same sex marriages. So is homosexuality good or evil?
Which verdict is correct? The old one or the new one?
Fornication and adultery were also considered intolerable. But
nowadays, most people in our society encourage fornication and accept
it as normal and praiseworthy behavior to the point that virginity is
viewed with disdain.
In the past, the institution of slavery and the sale of slaves were
universally acknowledged as an acceptable practice. But today in most
parts of the world it has been abolished and is looked upon as a
practice and institution worthy of the most severe form of censure
and rebuke. So which ruling is correct? The one that says that
slavery is praiseworthy and justified or the one that says it is
deplorable?


These are just a few examples of how cultural and social norms change
according to what people come to accept as being good or bad. So the
criterion is merely what people come to accept or reject. If this is
the case, then cultural and social norms cannot be the basis for
determining whether or not a senior being married to a minor is an
evil practice or a sin.

This is the case, especially for those who hold the view that good is
what brings you benefit and evil is what brings you harm. If this is
the case, then rape, theft, and burglary would be good, since it
would bring me benefit despite the fact that it would bring harm to
my victims, in whose case these things would be considered evil from
the victim's regard, since they bring harm.

And even for people who believe in scripture, this idea should not be
hard to understand, especially since all monotheistic scriptural
religions believe that there was a time that God allowed marriage
between brothers and sisters, a thing that is today considered to be
incest. But for those who believe in scripture, this can be justified
by the fact that God has the right to change the rules of right and
wrong as he sees fit.


So nothing is inherently evil, just as nothing is inherently good.
God is the best judge of that, since it is He who created the world
and all that is deemed good and evil within it.

Another example is the permissibility of marriage between cousins.
Despite the fact that no scripture forbids marriage between cousins,
most people in the US look upon such a marriage as being incest. But
where does this understanding come from? What criterion was used to
arrive at the conclusion that this is an incestuous marriage?

Similarly, almost every Muslim woman involved in a marriage of
polygany has no desire to be a partner in it in spite of the fact
that she knows its permissibility in Islam. But does that dislike
make the act impermissible or a sin?

Conclusion

Cultural norms and customs cannot be used as the criterion for
judging the rightness or wrongness of an action. And that includes
the marriage between a senior and a minor, viz. the marriage of the
Prophet Muhammad ?may Allah bless and grant him peace ?to the
Mother of the Faithful, `Aisha ?may Allah be pleased with her.

Many times we cannot easily perceive the extent of our influence by
cultural norms. And as people of scripture who base our lives on
divine revelation, we may many times dislike a thing, even though God
may not dislike it. And we may at times like a thing that God abhors.
When we realize the dichotomy in our paradigms, it is our duty to
correct these contradictions. Otherwise, what is the degree of our
sincerity?

And as people who judge by societal norms, we must also understand
the volatile nature of those norms and the carnal bases of many of
their incentives, and as such they cannot be used as a basis for
judging between good and evil in our everyday lives. But only God has
the right to forbid and allow. For He is the Creator of all, and the
best knower of what is a benefit or harm for His creature.


Abdullah bin Hamid Ali

Imam, SCI Chester State Correctional Facility

Chester, PA (USA)





1 The legal definition of a pedophile doesn't apply to the Prophet ?
br> may Allah bless and grant him peace ?and those who assail the
Prophet's character with this accusation intentionally or
unintentionally do so by taking advantage of the personal culturally
and societal shaped biases of the western populous and their
ignorance of the proper meanings of such terms.

The American Psychiatric Association defines Pedophilia:



A pedophile is a person who over at least a 6 month period has
recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or
behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or
children (age 13 years or younger). The fantasies, sexual urges, or
behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in
social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. The
person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the
child or children. Not to include an individual in late adolescence
involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12 or 13 year old
(straight or gay). Individuals with pedophilia generally report an
attraction to children of a particular age range. Some individuals
prefer males, others prefer females, and some are aroused by both
males and females. Pedophila involving female victims is reported
more than pedophilia involving male victims.

2 This is according to the soundest of reports. There are other
reports and opinions that place her age a several years older prior
to consummation.

3 Some scholars hold the view that if a child prays or performs any
of the religious burdens of Islam before reaching puberty, he/she is
rewarded for it but not punished for abandoning it.

4 What is odd is that one would argue that a child is too young to
marry due to irresponsibility but that he/she is old enough to have
sexual intercourse.

5 The view of Abu Hanifa is that once a person reaches the age of 25,
he/she is given full reign over his/her wealth regardless of the
signs of carelessness and mismanagement unless the person is insane.

6 Umm Ruwaman was `Aisha's mother.

7 Meaning, that she panted from being out of breath.


For more articles by Ustadh Abdullah please go to:
http://LAMPPOSTPRODUCTIONS.ORG (http://lamppostproductions.org/)

Debater
31-12-04, 04:08 PM
Age of Ummul Momineen Aishah Tayibah radhiyAllahu 'anha from Sahih Bukhari

Hadith No. 121

Hadhrat ‘Aishah says,
‘When Nabi sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam married me, I was 6 (sittah) years old and at the age of 9 years I entered the marital relationship with him and I remained in his (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) nikah for 9 (tis’ah) years.’

(Kitabun Nikah, chapter 21, volume 3, page 45)

Hadith No. 938

Ummul Momineen ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha says,
‘I was never jealous of a woman as I was of Khadijah radhiyAllahu 'anha though she had died three years before my marriage.’

(Kitabul Adab, volume 3)

Here we learn that Saiyidah Khadijah radhiyAllahu 'anha died in 10 nabawi. And Hadhrat ‘Aishah’s nikah fell three years afterwards i.e in 13 nabawi, exactly the year of emigration, a few days before emigration.
According to the first hadith (121), Ummul Momineen were then 6 years old.

Hadith No. 1078

‘Abdullah said, ‘Khadijah radhiyAllahu 'anha died three (3) years before the emigration. He (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) waited for more or less two (2) years then he married Hadhrat ‘Aishah when she was six (6) years old. Then at the age of nine (9) years, she departed (to the house of Prophet).’

(Kitabul Ambiya, volume 2)

So Ummul Momineen were 6 years old, 2 years after Hadhrat Khadijah’s death (Hadith No. 1078), and they were 6 years old still after 3 years of Hadhrat Khaijah’s demise (Hadith No. 938).
(SubhanAllah, unbelievable results)

Hadith No. 2101

Ummul Momineen said, ‘When I was small and used to play, in those days this verse revealed on Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam:
Balis-sa’atu maou-‘idu hum…. and it was learnt by me.’

(fadha’il-al-Quran, volume 2)

This verse is from surah Al-Qamar and surah Al-Qamar descent in 5 nabawi. This is the chapter of lunar fissure (shaq-qul-qamar). At that time Saiyidah Siddiqah radhiyAllahu 'anha were so intelligent, that they learnt this verse.
Now if at the time of her nikah which fell in either 10 or 12 or 13 nabawi, they were 6 years old then in 5 nabawi (lunar fissure) they were 1 year old or not even born. SubhanAllah!

Hadith No. 1087

Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha says, ‘Since when I reached the age of discretion (understanding), I found my parents following Islam. There passed no day that Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam didn’t come to us in the morning and evening.’

(Kitabul Ambiya, volume 2)

Now we should learn when exactly a girl reaches the age of discretion. By coincidence we have learnt when Imam Bukhari reached this age.

In the preface of ‘Fathul Bari’ (sharh Bukhari), it says:

‘Muhammad bin Waraq says, ‘I myself heard from Imam Bukhari. He said, “Allah granted me the fondness of learning hadith by rote when I was in maktab (school).” I asked, “When you had this desire, how old you were.”
He said, “Ashara sineena aou aqalla” i.e. 10 years old or less than that.’

This shows that Ummul Momineen reached the age of discretion in 5 nabawi so they were around 10 years old at that time.

Tabari’s this statement verifies it that all the children of Nabi sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam and Abu Bakr radhiyAllahu 'anhu were born before the apostleship (i.e. at the times of ignorance).

These two narrations (Hadith No. 2101 and No. 1087) refute the first narration, No. 121).

The Purpose of such Narrations

It is obvious that through such narrations not only Ummul Momineen are slandered but the blasphemy of our Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam is also meant.
So Enemies of Islam today (christians and others) give our Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam the name of a Paedophile (ma’azAllah).
And it is too strange that the kuffar of the past i.e. the worst and contemporary enemies of our Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, the mushrikeen of Makkah, jews and others have never been reported to give this name to our Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam.
Doesn’t this knock at something in our heads?

Certainly, there is no truth in this claim that our Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam married Ummul Momineen ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha when they were 6 or 9 years old.

At the same time do we have any example of the period of ignorance or the apostleship that Arab girls got married then at the age of 6 or 9?

Or do we see today’s Arabia, where 6 or 9 year old girls are married?

And the most important do we see any Hadith Scholar who marries a 6 or 9 year old girl, or loves to marry his daughter when she is 6 or 9 years old, in order to follow the Sunnah (maazAllah).

Obviously all these questions have a Big NO, when answered.

According to Mumtaz Begum who writes in her book ‘Aurat ka aayeli maqaam’ (Family status of a woman):

‘It has been proven by historical evidences that the age of Hadhrat Ayeshah radhiyAllahu 'anha, at the time of nikah, was at least 16 years and when departing to the house of Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, it was 19 years. Narrations in which the numbers of 6 and 9 are described, there the word of tens place (dahaai) has been omitted or is (deliberately) removed. That is to say, sittah ‘ashar (16) and tis’ah ‘ashar (19) are made only sittah (6) and tis’ah (9). And the following transmitters (muhadditheen) have transferred it to us with closed eyes.

And on this basis the reasoning of scholars that from this narration, nikah of minor girls (of tender age) is justified, is totally absurd and nonsense. Not a single civilization in this world has allowed to play the game of sexuality with under age girls, then how Islam can permit that.’
(Even animals abstain from such practise.
But in such blasphemous narrations we believe as though they are the verses of the Book of Allah and keepy trying to interpret them unsuccessfully.)

The writer has supplied some references in the foot note:

Hadhrat ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha were ten (10) years younger than her sister Asma radhiyAllahu 'anha. Asma died in 73 hijri when her age was 100 years. In this way Asma radhiyAllahu 'anha was 27 or 28 at the time of emigration and Hadhrat ‘Aisha radhiyAllahu 'anha would be 17 or 18 years old.
Ummul Momineen departed for the house of Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam in 2 hijri. At that time they had reached the age of 19 or 20 years.

(Mishkaat Asma-ar-rijaal - ‘Ayni sharh Bukhari, volume 8, page 96 – Iste’aab, volume 2, page 744)

Moreover it is narrated that Hadhrat ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha were 5 years younger than Hadhrat Fatimah radhiyAllahu 'anha. When Hadhrat Fatimah radhiyAllahu 'anha died in 10 hijri, their age according to the famous quote was 30 years and according to Kalbi (Kazzab) 35 years.

(Iste’aab, volume 2, page 752 – Asadul Ghabah, volume 4, page 773)

So at the time of emigration, the age of Hadhrat ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha is found to be 15 or 20 years. When, 2 years later, their departure to the house of Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam took place, they were 17 or 22 years old.

(Aurat ka aayeli maqaam, page 173)

Debater
31-12-04, 04:24 PM
Critisising Imam Bukhari or anyone else

One must admit that Imam Bukhari or any other scholars were mere human beings. And to err is human. So first of all when compared to the Respect and Honour of our Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, a Muslim doesn’t care who becomes the target of criticism. But still one should have gracious presumptions towards Imam Bukhari or other eminent scholars, keeping in view that in old days books were not printed in the press but they were hand-written, and the Satanic-Sect has been active in every period to corrupt and infect the teachings of Islam. So this is not beyond doubt that conspiring-calligraphists (katib) directly or indirectly have caused Tampering with the words of such narrations as in this case the sittah ‘ashar (16) and tis’ah ‘ashar (19) have been tampered with sittah (6) and tis’ah (9). And the purpose is quite familiar; to destroy the character of our Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam in particular and of our mother ‘Aisha radhiyAllahu 'anha in general.

A Question

Do, as Muslims, we love the dignity of our Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam or we prefer the narrators of such traditions?

‘Arwah

Such narrations appear to be either the saying of Ummul Momineen or ‘Arwah who is a taba’i and nephew of Ummul Momineen. If this is the statement of ‘Arwah, there is no religious status of that.

Hashaam bin ‘Arwah

Transmitting from ‘Arwah is his son Hashaam. All the confusion in this narration seems to be created by this Hashaam. His life has two stages:

1. In Madinah
2. In Iraq

Madani period lasted till 131 hijri. In this period his most important student is Imam Malik who has taken many narrations in his Muwatta from him but this narration of nikah is not available in it (isn’t it surprising?).
Imam Abu Hanifah is his student in the same period but he also didn’t transmit this narration anywhere.

Hashaam’s second stage starts from 131 hijri. Till 131 hijri, he was undoubtedly thiqah (reliable) in everyone’s eyes and was the main character for Hadiths of Ummul Momineen but when in 131 hijri he spent 100,000 out of loan at his daughter’s wedding in a hope that he would receive financial aid from the Caliph of time and pay the debts. But it happened that the government of Banu Umaiyah came to an end and Banu ‘Abbas took over. Hashaam went to Baghdad with a world of expectations and begged Caliph Mansur but first the calph reproached him saying who asked him to spend such a huge amount of money but Hasham kept sticking to Mansur the skinflint. At last the caliph got rid of him with 1000. This was the first mental shock for Hashaam due to which he started delusion (mughaltah) in his narrations. He began to attribute those narrations to his father which he hadn’t heard from him.
But in this hope that later he could get more amount from the caliph, he went back to Madinah. After a short stay he again started for Baghdad and this time he succeeded to get some amount and got back to Madinah. Probably to pay the debts he once again after sometime reached Baghdad and stayed there forever. He died the samewhere in Baghdad in 146 hijri. All the mess (confusion) in his narrations appeared on the land of Iraq. After coming to Iraq his memory was badly affected.

Ya’qub bin Abi Shebah says:

No narrations of him were denied but when he moved to Iraq, he described so many such narrations via his father Arwah, which the people of Madinah imagined disagreeable. While living in Madinah, Hashaam narrated only those hadiths which he had heard from his father but after reaching Iraq, he started describing those Mursal narrations (with second top link in the chain of narrations missing) attributing to his father which he had heard from others and hadn’t heard from his father. Therefore Hashaam’s those narrations which the people of Iraq transmit are not at all reliable.

(Tehzib At-tehzib, volume 11, page 48)

May Allah bless Hafiz Ibn Hajar, how beautiful word he has said with reference to Yaqub bin Abi Shebah that Hashaam’s those narrations are not reliable which the people of Iraq transmit from him.

1. Hadhrat Aishah’s (radhiyAllahu 'anha) marriage consummation at the age of 9 and nikah at the age of 6 is narrated by the People of Iraq from Hashaam.

2. The stories of Hadhrat Aishah’s (radhiyAllahu 'anha) playing with dolls are narrated by the People of Iraq from Hashaam.

3. The story of magic (spell) on Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam is narrated by the People of Iraq from Hashaam.

Yaqub bin Abi Shebah and Hafiz Ibn Hajar haven’t declared Bukhari and Muslim as an exception in his principle.

Hafiz Dhahabi writes in the biography of Hasham:

In the last part of his age, there appeared a variation (change) in his memory.

Abul Hasan bin Alqataan claims:

In the last part of his age, he started messing (mistakes) in Hadiths and isnaad (chains of narration).

Hafiz ‘Aqeeli writes even this much:

ﻩﺭﻣﻋ ﺭﺨ ﺍ ﻒﺮﺧ ﺪﻗ
(He became foolish (doted) in the last part of his age.)

Dhahabi writes in Meezan:

His memory didn’t remain as excellent it was at the young age even in Iraq he described so many hadiths to people which he couldn’t deliver correctly.

(Meezanul Ae’tedaal, volume 4, tarjumah Hashaam)

Imam Malik who was one of Hashaam’s student and who had transmitted many narrations from Hashaam in his Muwatta, there was one period of him (Imam Malik) that in every matter he regarded Hashaam’s saying the last word but after reaching Iraq when Hashaam consecuted such memorable work, Imam Malik as well didn’t remain pleased with him anymore.

Even that ‘Abdur Rahman bin Kharaash states:

Imam Malik didn’t like him. He had objected him due to hadiths of the people of Iraq.

And Ibn Hajar has stated till this degree that

Due to Iraqi narrations, all the people of Madinah started objecting him.

The Ghost

The ghost of these 9 years hanunted Hashaam so badly that he made his wife also 9 years old.

Dhahabi has narrated this story as Fatimah bint Almanzar was elder than her husband Hashaam and Hafiz Dhahabi while commenting on these words of Hashaam, has said that Fatimah was 13 years older in age than Hashaam that is when she entered the house of Hashaam as his wife at the age of 9, four (4) years were due for Hashaam to be born and since then Hashaam didn’t let anyone even to see the border of her cloth. I haven’t seen such a big Karaamat (miracle) till today. Elders have everything uncomparable. Not everyone can absorb it. After this disrespect, Dhahabi stated that when Fatimah entered the house of Hashaam, her age was 28 or 29. So Hashaam showed only this much miracle that he dropped ‘Two Tens’ from the ‘Tens Place’ making it 9.

According to Hafiz Ibn Hajar, this mystery was solved by Hashaam himself with his tongue that

My wife is 13 years older than me and this is why she has heard hadiths from her grand-mother Hadhrat Asma.

What else we can say after all he is the narrator of Bukhari and Muslim, but we can say it with certainty that the weather of Iraq affected brains of quite high up people.

Debater
24-01-05, 04:40 PM
Iraqi Narrators of Hishaam's Work

Narrating the age of Ummul Momineen from Hishaam are strangely all from Kufah or Basrah. This narration is neither transmitted by any person from Madinah, or Makkah, or Syria or Egypt, rather not a single narrator from all Islamic countries transmits this except Iraq. Following are the people who transmit this story from Hishaam:

Kufis

Sufyan bin Sa’id Athauri (Kufah)
Sufyan bin ‘Aeniyah (Kufah)
‘Ali bin Mas-her (Kufah)
Abu Muawiyah Al-farid (Kufah)
Wakee’ bin Al-Haraah (Kufah)
Younus bin Bukayr (Kufah)
Abu Salmah (Kufah)
Hamaad bin Zayd (Kufah)
‘Abdah bin Sulayman (Kufah)

Basris

Hamaad bin Salmah (Basrah)
Ja’far bin Sulayman (Basrah)
Hamaad bin Sa’id (Basrah)
Wahab bin Khalid (Basrah)

Hishaam when moved to Iraq in 132 hijri, his age was 71 years and till this age there was no one in Madinah who could narrate this story from him.

Now either Kufis fabricated this narration and attributed it to Hishaam or this is the result of Hishaam’s fantasies as he himself married 9 year old Fatimah bint Al-Manzar, four years before his own birth. This is such a magnificent historic work which no one on earth has been able to perform till today.

I am sure the following saying of Hishaam, which he delivered during his life in Madinah, will make us all great fans of him:

He said,

When an Iraqi narrates 1000 hadiths to you, throw 990 of them on the ground and keep suspecting the rest of 10 as well.

If we keep in view this quote from Hashaam, many problems will begin to solve all by themselves.

Debater
24-01-05, 04:46 PM
Ummul Momineen in Badr

Imam Muslim in his Sahih has transmitted from Ummul Momineen ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha via ‘Arwah bin Zubayr that they (Ummul Momineen) say:

Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam departed for Badr, when he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) reached Harat-al-Ghareerah, a man came to him who was famous for his courage and bravery. Sahabah Kiraam (ridhwanullahe alayhim) got very happy seeing him. Coming closer he asked Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, ‘I have come to you in order to participate in the war alongwith you and I also suffer this hardship along with you.’, he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) asked, ‘Do you believe in Allah and His Messenger?’, he said, ‘No.’, he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) said, ‘Go back, I don’t need assistance from a polytheist.’

Ummul Momineen say, ‘The man went back but when We reached Shajrah, the same guy came again, he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) asked him the same question that if he believed in Allah and His Messenger, he (the man) said, ‘No.’, he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) said, ‘I don’t require any polytheist for help.’, so the the man went back.

Ummul Momineen say, ‘When We we reached the place of Baydaa, the same guy returned again. Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam asked him the same question ‘Do you believe in Allah and His Messenger?’, he (the man) said, ‘Yes.’, he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) said, ‘Ok then, come on.’

(Sahih Muslim, volume 2, page 118)

May Allah bless Imam Muslim who has presented this narration with such an excellent Sanad that no subversive mind can point finger on any narrator of this narration. He has proven through this incident that Ummul Momineen herself was present in Ghazwah of Badr and she came into the marriage with the Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam in 1 hijri and remained in marriage for 10 years and what the 9 years of married life is mentioned in Hishaam's narration is not correct.

Imam Muslim has proven that Ummul Momineen were not fond of playing with dolls but their favourite hobby was to play with swords rather they were brought up by the sword itself. The girl watching the play of swords doesn’t play with dolls. This playing with dolls is the tradition of ‘Ajamis (Non-Arabs) and not the Arabic custom. These Iraqi narrators want to buy their own women’s culture at the door of Ummul Momineen. And probably the purpose in view would be to level the way saying what understanding would be of Quran and Sunnah by a girl who had passed her time playing with dolls.

We conclude from this hadith of Imam Muslim that Ummul Momineen Hadhrat Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha were present at the Ghazwah of Badr and they are the only one from women who are Badriyah.

Hadhrat Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu when prescribed stipend (subsistence allowance) in his caliphate, the allowances for Badrayn were more than for Non-Badrayn, and the allowance prescribed for Hadhrat ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha was more than for other mothers of believers. And this certainly is an evidence which goes in favour of her participating in Badr and this honour was not with any other mother of believers not to speak of any other woman on earth.

Moreover this should be noted that women who participated in war had many responsibilities, collecting the injoured from battlefield, their medical aid, giving drinking water to the mujahideen and injoured, even supplying arms if required. Obviously this is beyond practice that a 9 year old girl should serve in the battlefield.

Debater
24-01-05, 04:53 PM
Ummul Momineen in Uhud

Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam had the insight of what would happen in Ghazwah of Uhud that is why he (sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam) didn’t permit boys of aged 14 to participate in the war. Among those underaged boys were included Hadhrat Samrah bin Jundub, Hadhrat Baraa bin ‘Aazib, Hadhrat Anas bin Malik, Hadhrat Zayd bin Thabit and Hadhrat ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar (ridhwanullahe alayhim ajma’een) even Ibn Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu says,

‘I was not allowed to participate in Ghazwah of Uhud because my age was 14 years then and the first Ghazwah in which I participated was Ghazwah of Khandaq (Ahzab).’

So the at least age to fight a war is 15 years even some Imams (religious leaders) and fuqaha (Muslim jursits), due to this narration of Ibn Umar radhiyAllahu 'anhu, have described the age of puberty to be at least 15 years.

Now the thing to ponder is that if Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam announced the least age to participate in this Ghazwah to be 15 years, how it is possible that a minor aged girl should be allowed to enter this Ghazwah.

As I have mentioned before the responsibilities of the women who participated in wars included collecting the injoured from battlefield, medical aids, giving away drinking water even supplying arms if required. Obviously this is not easy for any woman to perform these duties not to mention 9 or 10 year old girls.

A woman can perform these serious jobs only when she is familiar with some logistic requirements and if required she must be able to defend her ownself even she should be this much courageous to enter the battlefield depending on the circumstances.

Umm ‘Ammarah radhiyAllahu 'anha

In this Ghazwah Umm ‘Ammarah radhiyAllahu 'anhu was amongst those who were defending the Holy Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam. That day she received 17 wounds on her body. Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam had her dressing done in his own supervision.

She fought with Ibn Qummiyah who attacked Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam with the stone. She was attacking him with a stick and he was striking back with a sword. Even that with her strike he fell down and his head broke, on which my Nabi sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam started laughing.

She participated in the War of Yamamah against Muselmah Kazzab and had a regular fight in which she received 12 wounds to the extent that her hands lost functioning in this war.

Women who didn’t participate regularly in the war, were also armed.

Umm Saleem (or Sulaym) radhiyAllahu 'anha

Ibn Sa’d narrates that on the day of Uhud, Umm Saleem radhiyAllahu 'anhu had a dagger.

Hadhrat Anas radhiyAllahu 'anhu states that

In the war of Hunayn, Umm Saleem was holding a dagger. Abu Talha radhiyAllahu 'anhu said, ‘Ya Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, this is Umm Saleem and she holds a dagger.’. When Umm Saleem radhiyAllahu 'anha heard, she said, ‘Ya Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, I keep this dagger with me in order to tear the belly of a kafir who should come close to me.’

(Tabqaat Ibn Sa’d, volume 8, page 425)

This detail explains that participation in a Ghazwah or war is not the job of a small girl and then Hadhrat Umm Saleem radhiyAllahu 'anha who is the mother of Hadhrat Anas radhiyAllahu 'anhu, is a mature aged and experienced (in life) woman and participated in many Ghazwaat along with Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam.

Our Mother, Saiyidah ‘Aishah, Siddeeqah of the Universe radhiyAllahu 'anha

We have proven above that Ummul Momineen took her part in Ghazwah of Badr as a woman. And they were active along with Umm Saleem radhiyAllahu 'anha in Ghazwah of Uhud as well.

Hadhrat Anas radhiyAllahu 'anhu says,

I saw ‘Aishah bint Abi Bakr and Umm Saleem (radhiyAllahu ‘anhuma), they had their legs of trousers raised and the back of their shank were visible to me. Both of them had water skins lifted and gave mujahideen water to drink, then went back to fill them again and supply mujahideen with water to drink.

(Bukhari, volume 1, page 403)

Debater
24-01-05, 06:58 PM
Islamic injunctions as established by the Prophet are valid till the Day of Judgement. Islam not only allows an early marriage between the opposite sexes but encourages it.

Girls in the West, whether the laws permit them or not, are sexually active much earlier than the permitted marriage age, usually 18 in most countries. Islam recognised this 1400 plus years ago and permits an early marriage now as it did then.
This reply is almost 3 years old but I preserve my right to respond to it.
I want to know what the meaning of an 'early marriage' is.
How early in fact?

And I am also interested to know where in Quran or Sunnah, early marriages (as early as 6 years of age) is allowed and encouraged.

Debater
24-01-05, 07:06 PM
ASA Muawiyah,

So you agree with Prof. Ausaf Ali that the Shari'ah ruling regarding marriage at the age of 9 needs changing!

Quote from the article by Dr. Ausaf Ali:

"There is an authentic Hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) (in Shu'ab al Iman) that the father ought to marry his son at puberty and his daughter at the age of 12. Because if he fails to do so, then if the son and/or the daughter commit the sin (of premarital sex), "the guilt of that rests upon the father."

"Shariah lays down the age of nine years as the age of maturity for women. Our question in our new environment in America is:
Notwithstanding the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) and the historical practice in Muslim countries, should we insist on enforcing the demand of the Prophet of marrying the Muslim boys and girls at 12 or 13 years of age?"
What is the authenticity of this hadith?

How many Islamic/Hadith Scholars have married their sons and daughters at the age of 12 or 13 in THIS WORLD? (to follow the Prophet)

How many of them have married their daughters at the age of 6 or 9?

ys333
24-01-05, 07:10 PM
times change, i dont think any muslim in the west would marry off children as young as 12 or 13.

Debater
24-01-05, 07:13 PM
salaam alaykum

i think there may be a difference amost the shia scholars about the age of ayesha's marrige. correct me if i am wrong.

some of the learned people i have spoken to have said that those narrations are fabrications.

what surprises me is the reactin by some of those who coinsider sahih muslim and bukhari 100% sahih. why not stick to your beliefs regarding those narrations that say she was 6 years old?


here in the west teenagers get physicaly mature before they get mentally mature. why? coould it be their lifestyle or food??

how do you think we should solve this problem? because if they are mentally imature to get married but they physically mature to commit sin.
Shias have the same beliefs about Hadhrat Fatimah that she was married at the age of 6 or 9.

About Bukhari or Muslim what do you think they should do to the narrations which prove that she was not 6 or 9 years old at the time of her marriage?

I don't know at what age teenagers get physically mature in the west but I know that they don't get married at the age of 6 or 9. (same situation in the east)

Debater
24-01-05, 07:15 PM
times change, i dont think any muslim in the west would marry off children as young as 12 or 13.
But I can't see any instances of such marriages in the past as well.

ys333
24-01-05, 07:27 PM
But I can't see any instances of such marriages in the past as well. there was obviously some around the time of the prophet, since aisha was already spose to marry some other person and they had to cancel it.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

above shows nowadays that age of consent varies with some countries having it around 13/14.

so probably possible that a long time ago people did marry at young age in some areas.

Debater
24-01-05, 07:28 PM
....no matter if she was 9 or 19 it really doesn't matter. All that we need to know and accept is that she was the wife of the Prophet (pbuh) and also one of the most valuble students and teachers of Islam. How many hadith come from her alone? The big picture is what we must look at. I personally always believed that she was 9 years old, and though I had trouble with that when I reverted, I came to understand that 1.) this was over 1400 years ago. Not even what, 100-200 years ago girls were getting married off at ages as young as 13, 14 and 2.) Allah has a plan for everything and is the best of planners, so who are we to look shamefully on something that we may not see the inner wisdom of? :confused:

Authentic Narrations of Bukhari and Muslim CLEARLY prove that Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha were not 6 or 9 years old but was a mature girl when they were married.

Less-Authenitc Narrations of Bukhari from Kufis and Basris (held by Shi'ism) prove that Ummul Momineen were 6 or 9 years old at that time.

Now decide yourself.
There is no point to feeling ashamed of anything except one that the TRUTH is CLEAR but people can be willing to attribute a LIE over Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam and they can slander our Nabi sallAllahu alayhe wasallam but they wont accept Imam Hisham or Imam Bukhari or Imam Iraqi at FAULT.

Debater
24-01-05, 07:32 PM
there was obviously some around the time of the prophet, since aisha was already spose to marry some other person and they had to cancel it.

http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

above shows nowadays that age of consent varies with some countries having it around 13/14.

so probably possible that a long time ago people did marry at young age in some areas.
IN FACT we are not working on the THEORY OF PROBABILITY so if you have any reference to PROVE that Ummul Momineen were 12 or 13 years old when they were engaged for the first time then your argument can be considered weighty.
Though I haven't gone through the link you provided with because Hisham's narrations don't say that Ummul Momineen were 13/14.

ys333
24-01-05, 07:38 PM
im not arguing her age. im arguing whether such a thing has happened in the past. you said it did not.

it was common a few hundred years ago to marry children off at young age, so very probable that children were married off when they were 9 years old at some point in history.

Details
24-01-05, 07:54 PM
im not arguing her age. im arguing whether such a thing has happened in the past. you said it did not.

it was common a few hundred years ago to marry children off at young age, so very probable that children were married off when they were 9 years old at some point in history.

this assertion contradicts the archeological record (for the area and the time,) do you have any evidence to sustain it?

ys333
24-01-05, 07:56 PM
this assertion contradicts the archeological record (for the area and the time,) do you have any evidence to sustain it?
no.

but the proof is there from the fact that she was already supposed to marry another man.

also common sense dictates its easily possible considering history and cultures.

in any circumstances it does not matter, she was not forced and she did not say a bad word about the prophet.

Debater
25-01-05, 05:10 PM
no.

but the proof is there from the fact that she was already supposed to marry another man.

also common sense dictates its easily possible considering history and cultures.

in any circumstances it does not matter, she was not forced and she did not say a bad word about the prophet.
First of all there is NO reliable proof/evidence in the History and Hadith Literature that Ummul Momineen married the Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam at the age of 6/9 years.
Such stories in Bukhari etc are from Iraq which was the stronghold of shias and shias have a history conspiracing against Islam and this fact is crystal clear in the books of Rijaal when you read them. Kufah etc were the cities where thousands of LIERS fabricated hadiths that is why Hisham's narrations from the people of Iraq are REJECTED as suggested by our Hadith Scholars.
Secondly, people with Brains in their Heads don't believe to give away their daughters in marriage when they are underaged rather they are kids of 6 or 9 years.
These narrations about Ummul Momineen were fabricated by shias the most probably because they also believe that their Bibi Fatimah was married at the age of 6. So in order to Fool the Fools they attributed such narrations to Ummul Momineen (as such narrations of Hishaam either appear to be the sayings of Ummul Momineen or 'Urwah etc). The other likely possibility to fabricate such narrations was to destroy the character of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam especially and of Ummul Momineen generally.

Lastly, this is my challenge to 'Ebadur-Riwayah (Slaves of Narrations) to bring a SINGLE proof from the Arabia at the time of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam that Arabs married MINOR girls.
I suggest all those who have just joined this discussion to read
1. Muawiya's post on the first page of this thread and
2. Debater's posts on the previous page to grasp the real issue.

And if some people insist on that there has/had been tradition in some societies of marriages with MINOR girls, then for their kind information, there are lots of STRANGE traditions still existing in this world but we should at least think for a moment to whom we are going to attribute an ACTION which we don't even approve for ourselves.
Now this is upto us if we keep DISRESPECTING our Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam or keep WORSHIPPING our Hadith Scholars and INFALLIBLE IMAMS.

faqir
25-01-05, 10:50 PM
This "debater" was banned from sunniforum for posting the same rubbish..... you can read the responses there if you wish.

faqir
25-01-05, 10:55 PM
*Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet*

Answered By Shaykh Gibril Haddad



[Questions in Dark Green]




*/To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who
believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted
norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to
substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a
single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as
young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such
examples
are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it
really was an accepted norm./*



Answer:





In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,





- Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar
when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place
in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).



- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of
nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it
from
him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.



- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less
than
three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.



- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to
forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima
bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh
Baghdad).



- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and
Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and
others.



- And our Mother `Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr
ibn
Mut`im before her father dropped that option when he received word from
the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased
with them.



*/In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported
in
the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this
event are not only highly unreliable, but also that on the basis of
other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely
happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My
reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which,
Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh)
is
held to be nine years are: Most of these narratives are reported only
by Hisham ibn `Urwah, reporting on the authority of his father. An
event
as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been
reported by more people than just one, two or three./*



Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it
directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that
reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from
other than `A'isha.



*/ It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn
`Urwah
lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the>event,
even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as
Malik
ibn Anas. /*



Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd
Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi
who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is
Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn
Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the
narratives of this event have been reported



*/Nor by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had
shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years./*



Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators,
Sufyan
ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from
Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.



Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik
ibn
`Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn
`Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd
Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.



This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over
eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major
Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major
Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!



*/ Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and
reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh),
reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by
Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people
of
Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those
narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq.
(vol11,
pg 48 - 51)/*



Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt),
above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated
overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub
does not exactly endorse that criticism.



As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in
the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the
authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.



Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since
they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he
was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity,
would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer
pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".



Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a
foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything

from his father except what he had heard directly from him.



Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as
negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough
to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what
he
had heard directly from him".



In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are
reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is
major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub
al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu
`Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi
Sulayman
from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama
and
Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from
Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham!



*/ Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions
of
the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory
suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)/*



An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301
#9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A
Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory
diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any
attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and
Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man
changed
a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his
younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or
lapsed,
so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to
Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of
knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did
not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and
the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and
floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak
and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah
console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to
`Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"



*/ According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born
about eight years before Hijra. But according to another>narrative in
Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at
the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the >Qur'an, was revealed,
"I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine
years before Hijra. /*



Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic
commentators
agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before
the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.



Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and
eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or
little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at
the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.



*/According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born
before
the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl
(jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this
narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the
narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwah. I see absolutely no reason
that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn
`Urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate./*



A two year old is not an infant. A two year old is able to run around,
which is what jariya means. As for "the comments of the experts" they
concur on 6 or 7 as the age of marriage and 9 as the age of
cohabitation.



*/ According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the
Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also
reported
in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years
was
allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years
of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of
Badr
and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at
that
time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to
help them, not to be a burden on them./*



First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to
non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second,
`A'isha
did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants
as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the
day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years
old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm
Sulaym
having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to
the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.



*/ According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of
Ayesha was ten years older than Ayesha. /*



Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she
was ten years older than `A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam
al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between
the
two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here.



*/It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah
wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old.
Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have
been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28
years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years
old at that time. Thus, Ayesha, if she got married in 1 AH (after
hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her
marriage./*



Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father,
that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that
"Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived
until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof
for `A'isha's age whatsoever.



*/Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr,
reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during
the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha was born
in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years
in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married./*



Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born
in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in
Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children
in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.



*/ According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha accepted Islam quite
some time before Umar ibn Khattab./*



Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.



*/This shows that Ayesha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam.
While, if the narrative of Ayesha's marriage at seven years of age is
held to be true, Ayesha should not have been born during the first year
of Islam./*



Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam
because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during
the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced
Islam before `Umar (year 6) although she was born the previous year
(year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will
automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.



*/ Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on
migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with
whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha in his
house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced
Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). /*



Not at all, there is no mention of emigration in Tabari's account of
Abu
Bakr's discussion with Mut`im. Nor did he ever ask him to take `A'isha
because there had been only some preliminary talk, not a formal
arrangement. Umm Ruman, Abu Bakr's wife, reportedly said: "By Allah, no
promise had been given on our part at all!" Rather, al-Tabari said that
when news of the Prophet's interest in `A'isha came, he went to see
Mut`im. Then Mut`im's wife manifested her fear that her son would
become
Muslim if he married into Abu Bakr's family. Abu Bakr then left them
and
gave his assent to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace.



*/Now, if Ayesha was only seven years old at the time of her marriage,
she could/*

*/not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to
Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume
that Ayesha had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also
a young lady, quite prepared for marriage./*



Your assumption fizzles at the root when you read al-Tabari's positive
assertion: "On the day he consummated the marriage with her, she was
nine years old."



*/According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the
death
of Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry
again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind.
Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already
been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet asked about who the virgin
was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's name. All those who know the Arabic
language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not
used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young
playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand,
is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a
"lady"./*

*/ /*

This is ignorant nonsense, bikr means a virgin girl, a girl who has
never been married even if her age is 0 and there is no unclarity here
whatsoever.

*/ /*

*/According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Ayesha.
Fatimah is reported to have been born when the Prophet was 35 years
old.
Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha could by
no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16
years old at the time of her marriage./*



Rather, Ibn Hajar mentions two versions: (1) al-Waqidi's narration that
Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35; and (2) Ibn `Abd al-Barr's
narration that she was born when he was 41, approximately one year more
or less before Prophethood, and about five years before `A'isha was
born. The latter version matches the established dates.



So our Mother `A'isha was nineteen to twenty years younger than her
sister Asma' (b. 27 before Hijra-d. 74) and about five years to eight
years Fatima's junior.



*/These are some of the major points that go against accepting the
commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her
marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away
girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the
Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not
object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has
been narrated./*



Those that itch to follow misguidance always resort to solipsisms
because they are invariably thin on sources. In this particular case
"the Learner" proves to be ignorant and dishonest. It is no surprise he
moves on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises
to false conclusions.



Hajj Gibril


















Learn Islam <http://www.SunniPath.com>. Visit SunniPath -
http://www.SunniPath.com (http://www.sunnipath.com/)
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Debater
26-01-05, 06:37 PM
*Our Mother A'isha's Age At The Time Of Her Marriage to The Prophet*

Answered By Shaykh Gibril Haddad



[Questions in Dark Green]




*/To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who
believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted
norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to
substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a
single dependable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as
young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such
examples
are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it
really was an accepted norm./*



Answer:





In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,





- Abu Tughlub ibn Hamdan married the daughter of `Izz al-Dawla Bakhtyar
when she was three and paid a dowry of 100,000 dinars. This took place
in Safar 360 H. (Ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil).
Abu Taughlub is not an example to follow for Muslims.

- Al-Shafi`i in al-Umm reported that he saw countless examples of nine-year old pubescent girls in Yemen. Al-Bayhaqi also narrates it
from
him in the Sunan al-Kubra as does al-Dhahabi in the Siyar.
Lots of things must have occurred in Yemen, as lots of traditions are in practice in different parts of world.

- Al-Bayhaqi narrated with his chains in his Sunan al-Kubra no less
than
three examples of Muslim wives that gave birth at age nine or ten.
SubhaanAllah! How beautiful examples!
May I know if their OWN WIVES gave birth at the age of NINE or Ten?

- Hisham ibn `Urwa himself (whom the objector claims to know enough to
forward the most barefaced judgments on his reliability) married Fatima
bint al-Mundhir when she was nine years old (al-Muntazam and Tarikh
Baghdad).
This story/joke about Hisham is already mentioned in my posts on page 6 of this thread.

- Our liege-lord `Umar married Umm Kulthum the daughter of `Ali and
Fatima at a similar age per `Abd al-Razzaq, Ibn `Abd al-Barr and
others.
And what is the authenticity of all these claims?

- And our Mother `Aisha herself was first almost betrothed to Jubayr
ibn
Mut`im before her father dropped that option when he received word from
the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless and greet him and be well-pleased
with them.

So what was the age of Ummul Momineen when they were first betrothed to Jubayr?
Is there any evidence with you/your scholar?



*/In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly mis-reported
in
the ahadith. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this
event are not only highly unreliable, but also that on the basis of
other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely
happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My
reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which,
Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh)
is
held to be nine years are: Most of these narratives are reported only
by Hisham ibn `Urwah, reporting on the authority of his father. An
event
as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been
reported by more people than just one, two or three./*



Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it
directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that
reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from
other than `A'isha.
What are those authorities?

*/ It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn
`Urwah
lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the>event,
even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as
Malik
ibn Anas. /*



Not so. Al-Zuhri also reports it from `Urwa, from `A'isha; so does `Abd
Allah ibn Dhakwan, both major Madanis. So is the Tabi`i Yahya al-Lakhmi
who reports it from her in the Musnad and in Ibn Sa`d's Tabaqat. So is
Abu Ishaq Sa`d ibn Ibrahim who reports it from Imam al-Qasim ibn
Muhammad, one of the Seven Imams of Madina, from `A'isha. All the
narratives of this event have been reported
Your scholar needs to read the Books of Rijaal instead of reading just Newspapers in order to learn about IMAM Zuhri.
Anyways if he claims that some narrators are really Madanis then ask him to show the complete sanad (chain of narration) with complete references. Though in this thread we have proven that Hisham's narrations in Bukhari are all WEAK with respect to other AUTHENTIC narrations which prove your scholar TOTALLY wrong.

*/Nor by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have had
shifted after living in Medinah for seventy one years./*



Not so. In addition to the above four Madinese Tabi`in narrators,
Sufyan
ibn `Uyayna from Khurasan and `Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Yahya from
Tabarayya in Palestine both report it.
References with Sanad please.

Nor was this hadith reported only by `Urwa but also by `Abd al-Malik
ibn
`Umayr, al-Aswad, Ibn Abi Mulayka, Abu Salama ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn
`Awf, Yahya ibn `Abd al-Rahman ibn Hatib, Abu `Ubayda (`Amir ibn `Abd
Allah ibn Mas`ud) and others of the Tabi`i Imams directly from `A'isha.
Nobody claimed that such narrations are ONLY narrated by 'Urwah.

This makes the report mass-transmitted (mutawatir) from `A'isha by over
eleven authorities among the Tabi`in, not counting the other major
Companions that reported the same, such as Ibn Mas`ud nor other major
Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha, such as Qatada!
MashaAllah! How simple FORUMLA for mass-transmission!
Mr. Scholar should first prove those narrations from Bukhari and Muslim to be AUTHENTIC.

*/ Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and
reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh),
reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by
Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people
of
Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those
narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq.
(vol11,
pg 48 - 51)/*



Rather, Ya`qub said: "Trustworthy, thoroughly reliable (thiqa thabt),
above reproach except after he went to Iraq, at which time he narrated
overly from his father and was criticized for it." Notice that Ya`qub
does not exactly endorse that criticism.
And?

As for Malik, he reports over 100 hadiths from Hisham as is evident in
the two Sahihs and Sunan! to the point that al-Dhahabi questions the
authenticity of his alleged criticism of Hisham.



Indeed, none among the hadith Masters endorsed these reservations since
they were based solely on the fact that Hisham in his last period (he
was 71 at the time of his last trip to Iraq), for the sake of brevity,
would say, "My father, from `A'isha? (abi `an `A'isha)" and no longer
pronounced, "narrated to me (haddathani)".



Al-Mizzi in Tahdhib al-Kamal (30:238) explained that it became a
foregone conclusion for the Iraqis that Hisham did not narrate anything

from his father except what he had heard directly from him.



Ibn Hajar also dismisses the objections against Hisham ibn `Urwa as
negligible in Tahdhib al-Tahdhib (11:45), saying: "It was clear enough
to the Iraqis that he did not narrate from his father other than what
he
had heard directly from him".



In fact, to say that "narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwa are
reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq" is
major nonsense as that would eliminate all narrations of Ayyub
al-Sakhtyani from him since Ayyub was a Basran Iraqi, and those of Abu
`Umar al-Nakha`i who was from Kufa, and those of Hammad ibn Abi
Sulayman
from Kufa (the Shaykh of Abu Hanifa), and those of Hammad ibn Salama
and
Hammad ibn Zayd both from Basra, and those of Sufyan al-Thawri from
Basra, and those of Shu`ba in Basra, all of whom narrated from Hisham!
This NONSENSE is not from Muawiya or Debater, your scholar should try to find out who did this NONSENSE.
And I want to update your scholar that Kufah and Basrah are in Iraq and not in Bhai Pheroo.



*/ Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the narrators of the traditions
of
the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory
suffered quite badly. (vol 4, pg 301 - 302)/*



An outright lie, on the contrary, al-Dhahabi in Mizan al-I`tidal (4:301
#9233) states: "Hisham ibn `Urwa, one of the eminent personalities. A
Proof in himself, and an Imam. However, in his old age his memory
diminished, but he certainly never became confused. Nor should any
attention be paid to what Abu al-Hasan ibn al-Qattan said about him and
Suhayl ibn Abi Salih becoming confused or changing! Yes, the man
changed
a little bit and his memory was not the same as it had been in his
younger days, so that he forgot some of what he had memorized or
lapsed,
so what? Is he immune to forgetfulness? [p. 302] And when he came to
Iraq in the last part of his life he narrated a great amount of
knowledge, in the course of which are a few narrations in which he did
not excel, and such as occurs also to Malik, and Shu`ba, and Waki`, and
the major trustworthy masters. So spare yourself confusion and
floundering, do not make mix the firmly-established Imams with the weak
and muddled narrators. Hisham is a Shaykh al-Islam. But may Allah
console us well of you, O Ibn al-Qattan, and the same with regard to
`Abd al-Rahman ibn Khirash's statement from Malik!"
Yeahhh! Imam Hisham is an INFALLIBLE IMAM and all people lied about him. Agreed.


*/ According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born
about eight years before Hijra. But according to another>narrative in
Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at
the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the >Qur'an, was revealed,
"I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine
years before Hijra. /*



Not true. The hadith Masters, Sira historians, and Qur'anic
commentators
agree that the splitting of the moon took place about five years before
the Holy Prophet's (upon him blessings and peace) Hijra to Madina.



Thus it is confirmed that our Mother `Aisha was born between seven and
eight years before the Hijra and the words that she was a jariya or
little girl five years before the Hijra match the fact that her age at
the time Surat al-Qamar was revealed was around 2 or 3.
SubhaanAllah! Your scholar should be given an AWARD of WISDOM to have such a great INTELLECT.
So when exactly and at what age Ummul Momineen was betrothed to Jubayr?
And what is the authenticity of Sirah and Quranic commentaries?


*/According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born
before
the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl
(jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this
narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the
narratives reported by Hisham ibn `Urwah. I see absolutely no reason
that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn
`Urwah, why we should not accept this narrative to be more accurate./*



A two year old is not an infant. A two year old is able to run around,
which is what jariya means. As for "the comments of the experts" they
concur on 6 or 7 as the age of marriage and 9 as the age of
cohabitation.
And 2 year is a very good age to marry.
Is your Scholar from Africa?
Does he REALLY know what 'Jariya' means?



*/ According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the
Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also
reported
in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years
was
allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years
of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of
Badr
and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at
that
time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to
help them, not to be a burden on them./*



First, the prohibition applied to combatants. It applied neither to
non-combatant boys nor to non-combatant girls and women. Second,
`A'isha
did not participate in Badr at all but bade farewell to the combatants
as they were leaving Madina, as narrated by Muslim in his Sahih. On the
day of Uhud (year 3), Anas, at the time only twelve or thirteen years
old, reports seeing an eleven-year old `A'isha and his mother Umm
Sulaym
having tied up their dresses and carrying water skins back and forth to
the combatants, as narrated by al-Bukhari and Muslim.
SubhaanAllah!
An eleven year old girl is carrying water skin filled with WATER to give water to Mujahideen.
I am sure your scholar must be able to carry a TRUCK on his shoulders when he was 11.



*/ According to almost all the historians, Asma, the elder sister of
Ayesha was ten years older than Ayesha. /*



Well, Ibn Kathir based himself on Ibn Abi al-Zinad's assertion that she
was ten years older than `A'isha, however, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam
al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between
the
two, up to 19, and he is more reliable here.
What is so special in 'HERE'?


*/It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah
wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old.
Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have
been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28
years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha should have been 17 or 18 years
old at that time. Thus, Ayesha, if she got married in 1 AH (after
hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her
marriage./*



Ibn Hajar reports in al-Isaba from Hisham ibn `Urwa, from his father,
that Asma' did live 100 years, and from Abu Nu`aym al-Asbahani that
"Asma' bint Abi Bakr was born 27 years before the Hijra, and she lived
until the beginning of the year 74." None of this amounts to any proof
for `A'isha's age whatsoever.
For Thick-Skulled only this evidence is useless.
The great scholar should try to investigate when was Asma married.
How strange that Aishah was betrothed to Jubayr but what about Asma?



*/Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr,
reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during
the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha was born
in the period of Jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years
in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married./*



Al-Tabari nowhere reports that "Abu Bakr's four children were all born
in Jahiliyya" but only that Abu Bakr married both their mothers in
Jahiliyya, Qutayla bint Sa`d and Umm Ruman, who bore him four children
in all, two each, `A'isha being the daughter of Umm Ruman.



*/ According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha accepted Islam quite
some time before Umar ibn Khattab./*



Nowhere does Ibn Hisham say this.
Disputed. Both parties want complete reference. I don't take this as my argument, I already have STRONG ones from Bukhari and Muslim.

*/This shows that Ayesha accepted Islam during the first year of Islam.
While, if the narrative of Ayesha's marriage at seven years of age is
held to be true, Ayesha should not have been born during the first year
of Islam./*



Rather, Ibn Hisham lists `A'isha among "those that accepted Islam
because of Abu Bakr." This does not mean that she embraced Islam during
the first year of Islam. Nor does it mean that she necessarily embraced
Islam before `Umar (year 6) although she was born the previous year
(year 7 before the Hijra) although it is understood she will
automatically follow her father's choice even before the age of reason.
Not proven.



*/ Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr planned on
migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am -- with
whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take Ayesha in his
house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced
Islam, and subsequently his son divorced Ayesha (ra). /*



Not at all, there is no mention of emigration in Tabari's account of
Abu
Bakr's discussion with Mut`im. Nor did he ever ask him to take `A'isha
because there had been only some preliminary talk, not a formal
arrangement. Umm Ruman, Abu Bakr's wife, reportedly said: "By Allah, no
promise had been given on our part at all!" Rather, al-Tabari said that
when news of the Prophet's interest in `A'isha came, he went to see
Mut`im. Then Mut`im's wife manifested her fear that her son would
become
Muslim if he married into Abu Bakr's family. Abu Bakr then left them
and
gave his assent to the Prophet, upon him blessings and peace.

So at what age Ummul Momineen was betrothed to Bukayr?
And at what age Hadhrat Asma was betrothed/married?


*/Now, if Ayesha was only seven years old at the time of her marriage,
she could/*

*/not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to
Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume
that Ayesha had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also
a young lady, quite prepared for marriage./*



Your assumption fizzles at the root when you read al-Tabari's positive
assertion: "On the day he consummated the marriage with her, she was
nine years old."
Exactly as we read Bukhari's POSITIVE assertion that Ummul Momineen had her marriage consummated when they were 9.
Something NEW?



*/According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the
death
of Khadijah, when Khaulah came to the Prophet advising him to marry
again, the Prophet asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind.
Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already
been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet asked about who the virgin
was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's name. All those who know the Arabic
language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not
used for an immature nine year old girl. The correct word for a young
playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand,
is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a
"lady"./*

*/ /*

This is ignorant nonsense, bikr means a virgin girl, a girl who has
never been married even if her age is 0 and there is no unclarity here
whatsoever.

*/ /*
This might be the 'ARABIC' of your African or Iranian Scholar but not of an Arab.


*/According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah was five years older than Ayesha.
Fatimah is reported to have been born when the Prophet was 35 years
old.
Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha could by
no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16
years old at the time of her marriage./*



Rather, Ibn Hajar mentions two versions: (1) al-Waqidi's narration that
Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35; and (2) Ibn `Abd al-Barr's
narration that she was born when he was 41, approximately one year more
or less before Prophethood, and about five years before `A'isha was
born. The latter version matches the established dates.


Now this is a test of Simple Arithmetic for your Scholar. Ask him to calculate Ummul Momineen's age through this LATTER VERSION, if he could.


So our Mother `A'isha was nineteen to twenty years younger than her
sister Asma' (b. 27 before Hijra-d. 74) and about five years to eight
years Fatima's junior.
And when 19 or 20 years younger sister was betrothed to Jubayr, Asma betrothed/married to???




*/These are some of the major points that go against accepting the
commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her
marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away
girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the
Prophet marry Ayesha at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not
object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has
been narrated./*



Those that itch to follow misguidance always resort to solipsisms
because they are invariably thin on sources. In this particular case
"the Learner" proves to be ignorant and dishonest. It is no surprise he
moves on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises
to false conclusions.



Hajj Gibril
And this is crystal clear that 'Ebadur-Riwayah (Slaves of Narrations) and 'Ebadur-'Ebad (Slaves of Slaves) don't accept truth even when it is brought forward but they keep worshipping their INFALLIBLE IMAMS, keep disrespecting Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam and his Ahl-al-Bayt (Wives) on the footsteps of Salman Rushdi Kafir.

















Learn Islam <http://www.SunniPath.com>. Visit SunniPath -
http://www.SunniPath.com (http://www.sunnipath.com/)
An Online Academy for Traditional Islamic Knowledge[/QUOTE]

Debater
27-01-05, 05:55 PM
Hadhrat Usama bin Zayd radhiyAllahu 'anhu

Hadhrat ‘Aishah radhiyAllahu 'anha says:

Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu slipped at the door sill and he received a wound at his face. Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam asked me, ‘Remove the dirt from Usamah’, I felt it disgusting, Usamah began to lick the blood and remove it from his face.

This is the narration of Ibn Sa’d. But another narration of the same type is present in Ibn Majah with these words:

Usamah got a running nose, Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam commanded me that I should get up and clean Usamah’s nose. I felt it disgusting and Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam himself got up and cleaned his nose.

In a narration of Tirmidhi is mentioned that
Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam intended to clean Usamah’s nose then Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha asked, ‘Allow me, I will clean (his) nose.’, he sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam said, ‘O ‘Aishah have an affection with Usamah because I love him too.’

(Tirmidhi, volume 2, page 246)

Moreover Bayhaqi has transmitted from Ummul Momineen via Sha’bi that
Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam commanded me, ‘Get up and wash Usamah’s face’, I said, ‘I haven’t had a child, so I don’t know how to wash the face of children, you yourself get him and wash him face’, he sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam himself got Usamah and washed his face and said, ‘You made things easy for us that you are not a girl, if you were a girl, I would adorn you with jewellery and spent lots of money on you.’

Imam Ahmed has via Bahi transmitted from Hadhrat ‘Aisha radhiyAllahu 'anha that Usamah fell by the door sill and he got hurt at this face, Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam was rubbing (his face) cleaning (him) and saying, ‘O ‘Usamah, if you were a girl, I would make you wear clothes and jewellery and spent lots of money on you.’

Keeping in view these narrations we clearly feel that Hadhrat Usamah bin Zayd radhiyAllahu 'anhu is a CHILD before Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha who sometimes get hurt, sometimes he has a runny nose, sometimes Ummul Momineen gets up and cleans, othertimes Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam himself does this, sometimes Ummul Momineen feels this thing disgusting and sometimes she makes excuses as she doesn’t have a child so she doesn’t have any experience of such things.

First of all this word that, ‘I didn’t have a child’ cannot be uttered from the mouth of a 9 or 10 year old KID. This can only be the word of a mature woman who can long for a baby.’
Secondly it also clarifies that Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu was quite younger than Ummul Momineen. If Ummul Momineen were of his age or younger than him, Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam wouldn never command her to clean his nose and blood. Because such an order is given to only the one who is older than the child. It never happens that a child of 8 years should be appointed at the service of another child of 10 years.

Our scholars hold the view that when at the demise of Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam, Ummul Momineen was 18 years old. So this is necessary to know how old Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu was then.

The Age of Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu

Imam Dhahabi writes in sayr a’laam-an-nabalaa that

the age of Usamah was then 18 years.

So this is a Historic-Wonder that a girl is cleaning the nose of a boy of her own age.
And Waliudding Al-Khateeb, the author of Mishkaat, writes in his book Al-akmaal fee asma-ar-rijaal:

When Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam died, Usamah was 20 years old.
(Mishkaat, page 585)

This also is an accepted truth that Nabi Kareem sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam during his last illness appointed Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu the commander of the army to fight with Romans. At that time his age according to Waliuddin Al-Khateeb was 20 years and according to Hafiz Ibn Kathir was 19 years.

When Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhi wasallam died, Usamah was 19 years old.
(al-badayah-wan-nahayah, volume 8, page 67)

This is established that Hadhrat Usamah radhiyAllahu 'anhu was born on 3 nabawi and to clean the nose of Usamah and remove blood from him, Ummul Momineen must be at least 5 years older than him in order to make the commands valid for her to clean the nose and blood.

Arsalan
07-02-05, 04:41 AM
Salam

So.. Debater.. Bro are you rejecting the 4 saheeh Hadith.. 2 of which were narrated by Ayesha RA ?

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.

Debater
27-02-05, 04:58 PM
Salam

So.. Debater.. Bro are you rejecting the 4 saheeh Hadith.. 2 of which were narrated by Ayesha RA ?

Of the four ahadith in Saheeh al-Bukhari, two were narrated from 'Aishah (7:64 and 7:65), one from Abu Hishaam (5:236) and one via 'Ursa (7:88). All three of the ahadith in Saheeh Muslim have 'Aishah as a narrator.
Those who accept Hisham's narrations which claim that Ummul Momineen were 6/9 years old when married they REJECT most of Sahih narrations in Bukhari.
Plus and Minus can't be equal at the same time.

Unfortunately Muslims have left Quran and majority of our Scholars have been running after 'Narrations' and on the basis of a narration they have formed 'Sects' and so one sect calls the other 'the deviant' and even 'kafir'. One example is of Deobandis and Barelvis.

When you point out the flaws, they put different labels on you, like 'Hadith Rejector' or 'Deviant' or so and so. I know Hadith Rejectors do exist but Muslims who Deny Quran in their love for Narrations or Hadith Scholars, become 'Quran Rejectors'.

Alhamdu Lillah I do accept Hadiths after Quran, but I don't accept a hadith which has a conflict with Quran or a Sahih Hadith, after it has been objected by Hadith Scholars.
In this thread I have brought arguments whose refutation is still due.
My objective is to protect the honour of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam with which most of Muslims have been playing unknowingly, only because majority of Muslims signify Hadiths over Quran including our ulama.

According to Imam Sha'bi:
The more you move toward hadith the more you go away from Quran.

It doesn't mean that there is a room for hadith rejectors, not at all but it means that being Muslims we should first take guidance from Quran, hadith is only the secondary source.
What I think is that both the majority of our scholars and hadith rejectors like parvez etc are on extremes. One group has made Imam Bukhari and other Scholars equal to shias' infallible imams who don't make mistakes and who are pure like angels and the other group has totally different views.

I started a thread in which was a good detail over Authentication of Hadiths but someone labelled me a Deviant and made the whole thread disappeared from the forum. In fact most of the people in this world love to label others, at least they should listen to the opponents' point of view.

sadaqah
01-03-05, 04:25 AM
as-salaamu-alaikum


subhannah allah! after taking the time to actually read all seven pages of this......... i have a very stupid question indeed. for myself - i don't question that Aisha(ra) married the Prophet(saws) when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9. i am not looking for any proof for or against that. what i want to know is if the age 6 is in hijrah years or roman calendar years. from what i understand there is a two and a half month diference between the lunar hijrah calendar and the solar roman calendar. that is why ramadan comes about two and half months(roman calendar jan-dec) each year and during one's lifetime can occur throughout all the seasons. right?
so since the hadiths reporting this age have been translated from arabic into english are the 6 and 9 years listed hijrah years or roman years. if they are hijrah years we would have to multiply 6years old X 2.5months per year diference = equals 15 months so that would make Aisha 7years and a few months in solar(roman calendar) years?????? and at if the age of 9 is hijrah years then that means 9 years X 2.5 months each year diference = 22.5 months to add so that would make aisha(ra) 9 years + 22.5 months = almost 11 years old. does that make sense????? of course if the narration as translated is listing roman calendar months then the age of 6 and 9 stand unquestioned in my mind. i accept the majority of the hadiths listed above as sahih as do the scholars i take from. so i don't question it or argue about it. i just wanted to know about the diference if the diference in the hijrah and roman calendar came into play here.

and just for the record - even white girls in the state of texas can reach puberty at age 9(in roman calendar years)!!! and girls at any age after menses can get pregnant and often do. in my little tiny hick hometown there were only 53 people in my whole class. about 30 of those were girls. out of that 30 only seven graduated high school without having been pregnant or having a baby at the age of 17. this is nothing new and i don't even know why this topic causes so much distress. for sure all my classmates weren't raped. they did what they did because they wanted to and kept doing it because they enjoyed it. and i don't believe for a minute that in this so called enlightened age of sex drugs and rock and roll that girls younger than nine before their menses aren't talking about sex and knowing about sex. i did. my daughter is six and some boy asked her about oral sex at school in kindergarten. i am not shocked or surprised by this. kids at that age are still in a state of fitrah. and nothing dirty or nasty has really entered their minds and sex is not some dirty word to them. if you look at any documentary of south american or remote area native tribes you will see little boys playing at having sex with their sisters and cousins - even penetrating them in some cases. go watch the Discovery Channel or PBS. the little girls are playing at having sex too. my son who is seven has erections all the time. he doesn't think it is dirty or obscene. anyone with a little boy knows they go through a stage where to tell them to stop putting their hand down there. sometimes little girls go through this stage too. and we are all the creation of Allah. and He made us each one according to His desires. i know how i was growing up and if some of you women will think back abit you might remember chasing the boys around the school yard trying to catch them so you could kiss them too.
i grew up in the country in Texas and my life wasn't half so dificult as a child maybe who grows up in some other parts of the world, but i carried my fair share of water jugs and beer mugs, and i carried my fair share of 25 pound bags of feed too at the age of 9 and 10 - so it isn't too hard to imagine much more from the mother of the believers(ra). we went deer, turkey, hog, quail, dove, etc. hunting all the time. my dad collects guns. i knew how to string a bow and shoot it and it wouldn't surprise me any to hear of Aisha participating in any battle at age five. i shot birds and squirrels myself with my BB gun at age five. don't give me nothing about little kids not knowing how to behave in a war zone either - there are kids living in warzones all over the world.
there is nothing hard to understand or to hold your mouth open about to hear about a girl at the age of nine marrying a man at the age of 45. especially not when the two people we are talking about are the mother of the believers(ra) and the prophet(saws). my great grandparents were married at 12 and 20. many young ladies of the age of 12 and 13 were married to older plantation owners during the pre and post civil war times, and both families were happy as could be to see them married. what an honor to have been chosen for marriage by the prophet(saws). from all the accounts it seems to have been a wonderful marriage. can you imagine your husband comming home and going around the house finding all your playmates hidden behind curtains? can you imagine running races with him and playing with him? can you imagine standing under your husbands cloak to watch a show by some foreign tribe of dancers? and he just stood there for as long as you wanted him to? can you imagine that you broke a dish sent to your husband from a cowife on purpose in front of all your husband's friends, and he got down on the floor and picked up the broken dish and the food with his own hands and even made an excuse for you to his friends and told them to forgive you and not think badly of you? because he loved you so much!!!! these are all acts of a child and a teenage girl still young and impetuous and jealous. subhannaah Allah! how special their love and care was for each other. how well balanced was the character of her youth with his patient wisdom of age. it was in Aisha's house(ra) that the Prophet(saws) died, and her spit from chewing his miswak to soften it to clean his teeth was the last thing he tasted. Their marriage was all of nine years and is one of the greatest love stories of all time. I don't see anything strange or requiring any explanation at all.

~Stanley~
01-03-05, 05:06 AM
so that would make Aisha 7years and a few months
9 years + 22.5 months = almost 11 years old.

Hello sadaqah,

I would first like to start out by admitting that I did not read past the above quote (s)
I simply needed to stop and ask, what difference would this make in the grand scheme of things ?

Are you claiming that an 11 year old can give herself freely and willingly to a prominent 40+ year old
man whom she was betrothed to by her parents at the age of six ?

Even if she never met Muhammad until the very night,
she obviously did not have freewill or a choice in the matter.


OK, I'll go back and finish reading your post now.

~Stanley~
01-03-05, 05:28 AM
Alhamdu Lillah I do accept Hadiths after Quran, but I don't accept a hadith which has a conflict with Quran or a Sahih Hadith, after it has been objected by Hadith Scholars.


According to Imam Sha'bi:
The more you move toward hadith the more you go away from Quran.

Hello Debater,

I began reviewing this thread from the end rather than the beginning so, please excuse me if I repeat something which has been said before.

The quotes above, I believe is the same message this non-muslim has been trying to get across to the other members for all the time I've posted on this forum.
Everything and anything which came after the Quran is manmade & man inspired.
A Ruling Islamic government is manmade and as far as I am aware of, not spoken of in great detail within the Quran itself but, through these extra materials produced by men.
I truly believe Islam would fair better and spread wider if it distanced itself from seeking power and control over the populations actions.
In my mind, Islam and the Qurans teachings are purely spiritual in nature and a guide toward developing oneself for entry into God's spiritual Kingdom.
In my humble opinion, if God wanted to rule over our daily lives with an iron fist,
he could easily do so without the assistance of men.
If Islam is to survive this current turmoil in our world today,
it must completely distance itself from seeking control and through the power of numbers,
elect just and worthy people to hold the offices which govern our society.

~Stanley~
01-03-05, 05:37 AM
SubhaanAllah! How beautiful examples!

Geeezus Pizza's Debater,
that post looks like some of the posts I've seen regarding false claims in the Bible !

:rolleyes:

Debater
01-03-05, 08:26 PM
..so since the hadiths reporting this age have been translated from arabic into english are the 6 and 9 years listed hijrah years or roman years. if they are hijrah years we would have to multiply 6years old X 2.5months per year diference = equals 15 months so that would make Aisha 7years and a few months in solar(roman calendar) years?????? and at if the age of 9 is hijrah years then that means 9 years X 2.5 months each year diference = 22.5 months to add so that would make aisha(ra) 9 years + 22.5 months = almost 11 years old. does that make sense?????..
The marriage of Ummul Momineen fell before the hijrah calender started and the report of this marriage in Himham's narrations are after the hirah calender started, so the 6/9 years reported are of hijrah calender and now you have to subtract 15/22.5 months from 6/9 years making it 5/7 years. Does it really make sense?

Debater
01-03-05, 08:35 PM
..i grew up in the country in Texas and my life wasn't half so dificult as a child maybe who grows up in some other parts of the world, but i carried my fair share of water jugs and beer mugs, and i carried my fair share of 25 pound bags of feed too at the age of 9 and 10 - so it isn't too hard to imagine much more from the mother of the believers(ra). we went deer, turkey, hog, quail, dove, etc. hunting all the time. my dad collects guns. i knew how to string a bow and shoot it and it wouldn't surprise me any to hear of Aisha participating in any battle at age five. i shot birds and squirrels myself with my BB gun at age five. don't give me nothing about little kids not knowing how to behave in a war zone either - there are kids living in warzones all over the world...
Did you carry the 25 pounds bags in the Vietnam War too?

Do you know what the difference is between HUNTING birds and PARTICIPATING IN A BATTLE/WAR?

Badr/Uhud were not War Zones where people lived. They were battle fields where people don't live but they FIGHT.

jahil
01-03-05, 08:57 PM
im not arguing her age. im arguing whether such a thing has happened in the past. you said it did not.

it was common a few hundred years ago to marry children off at young age, so very probable that children were married off when they were 9 years old at some point in history.

But a child marrying someone who was more than 50 years of age!

Moayidd
02-03-05, 06:13 AM
But a child marrying someone who was more than 50 years of age!

Interesting name Jahil (it means Ignorant in Arabic).

You have to measure morals by the standards applicable in the concerned age. For example, the concept of living together without marriage which is now acceptable in the judio-christian world. This might be laughable a few centuries from today.
Back then marriage was just a way of 'reserving' a girl. Its like the 'spoken for' concept. This was normal then. Saffiya (ra) which was the daughter of the Jewish King then, was also married to Mohamed (saaws) when she was about 15 and she was already a Divorcee (meaing she was already married before that). She was jewish which meant it was not an islamic custom, but a period custom.

Marriage to a girl that age did not MEAN sexual intercourse, it was just a way to reserve the girl.
Even today, Syrians and other arab countries marry off a girl when she is 16. The intention today is that the girl at that age is educatable in the ways of her husband and doesn't come with fixed ideas that he might not like.

sadaqah
02-03-05, 07:00 AM
as-salaamu-alaikum:

"Are you claiming that an 11 year old can give herself freely and willingly to a prominent 40+ year old
man whom she was betrothed to by her parents at the age of six ?"-Stanley

response: My answer is yes. Why don't you ask the mother of the believers (ra) or the prophet(saws) himself when you get the chance to one day? insha allah. my point is that we should be pretty careful about calling into question anything the prophet(saws) did. Are you calling the Prophet(saws) a pedophile? what if on the day of judgement it is absolutly proven that she did give herself happily and freely and willingly to him at the age of 9? what will be your excuse for your comment then? since you and no one else here on this thread really and truly can prove anything and anyway no one on this thread is an ulema capable of even making the statements that are floating around trying to prove this and prove that it is all conjecture and debate over something that has no viable place in the worship of Allah. All it does is stir up debate where you are liable to say something you will have to answer for on the day of judgement. And some of these posts are slanderring well known accepted scholars such as Bukhari. Why even go there? Why don't you say "allahu alim" - but the sahih hadiths more than prove the age beyond question, unless you are a sect who picks and chooses what you like and don't like to be authentic. if it was 5,6,7,8,9 years then subhannaah allah! whatever the Qadr of Allah is perfect and unquestionable and cannot be changed. the ulema agree that by the hadiths of the marriage of Aisha(ra) that the parents can betroth their daughters before the age of seven to the man of their choice. She was betrothed even before her marriage to the prophet(saws) to another man, and her father - Abu Bakr - had to go run to speak to that family before giving Rasulullah(saws) an answer. Are you questioning the action of one of the greatest shahabah of the best generation in his action to betroth his own daughter as a child?

"Did you carry the 25 pounds bags in the Vietnam War too?

Do you know what the difference is between HUNTING birds and PARTICIPATING IN A BATTLE/WAR?

Badr/Uhud were not War Zones where people lived. They were battle fields where people don't live but they FIGHT. " - debator

response: well noooo! i am not that old! but my point which you are obviously just going to debate no matter what i would have said, is that it is not impossible for a girl the age of 9-11 to do these things, so giving the weak arguement that she couldn't have been 9-11 and gone into the battle field because she wouldn't be able to carry a water skin is just pathetic! and to say that she couldn't have even participated in the battle- which none of the hadiths say - is also pathetic. so to use that arguement that she wouldn't have been brought because she couldn't possible participate is worthless. she could have and she did. are you old enough to remember if she was there or not and what she looked like? didn't think so.

and there are children today and in recent past who do participate in battles fought on war zones right in their neighborhoods. ask a few of our muslim brothers and sisters who live in bosnia if the kids know how to pull a ring and throw a grenade. or ask them if they ever had to leave their children guarding the house with a semi automatic. it does happen. so it is a lame arguement that kids can't participate in battle so there fore Aisha(ra) wouldn't have been there under the age of 18. and that the fact she was there - as recorded in hadith - proves she is older than 18. ???? how?? proves nothing.

hunting birds arguement? yes i know the diference- not that it really matters to you. did you see the layout of the battle of badr or uhud. do you know anything about war yourself? since you think that is relevant. people don't just treat the wounded in the middle of the active battle - they carry them if they can to a place where they can treat them. all the fighters don't go in as one big group all at one time either. battles are usually planned. and diferent peope take diferent positions such as militia, calvary, bowmen. and they go in at diferent times. and sometimes people come with the troops but stay really a good distance away from the actual battle zone. I never said Aisha(ra) was in the very center of the action and i don't think any of the hadiths say that any of the women except those who participated in the fighting, were right there either. it is very possible for someone to serve by taking water to the troops on the hill before they ride down into the battle. or to carry water and give it to troops who were injured or dying and had been carried out of the battle zone. there are many hadiths about the service of women in the battles and a diference of age between 9-18 isn't that much. anyway, i am pretty sure that she wouldn't have been there under any circumstances without the prophet(saws) approval and if she was 9, then who am i to say anything. can anyone here make a definite arguement that is is absolutly without question scientifically physically impossible for a person of 9yrs. to be taken into a battle area so there fore it couldn't have happened? this is just not a viable arguement. during the civil war in the USA there were recorded cases of boys of this age going along with the troops to carry the flag and beat the drum and fight too when it came down to it. there are several recorded incidents of children of this age fighting in battles - let alone carrying water to the troops. here is one of two brothers age 11 seperated and actually fighting in the battles in angola:
http://www.warchildren.org/two_brothers.html
so the arguement that there just isn't anyone on the battlefield under the age of 18 ever so she must have been older is not a very strong arguement.

"The marriage of Ummul Momineen fell before the hijrah calender started and the report of this marriage in Himham's narrations are after the hirah calender started, so the 6/9 years reported are of hijrah calender and now you have to subtract 15/22.5 months from 6/9 years making it 5/7 years. Does it really make sense?"- debator

well are you asking if what you wrote makes sense? yes and thank you that is all i really wanted to know. appreciate the facts. so according to roman years she married at 5-7. ok. maasha allah.

"Even if she never met Muhammad until the very night,
she obviously did not have freewill or a choice in the matter."- debator

and.... is there something wrong with that? ohhhh! that's right!!!! there are so many recorded hadiths about how horrible her first night was and how displeased she was with the marriage. and how horrible her life was because she was abused and molested. can you post all those hadiths for us again i think i missed those? Aisha(ra) was of the caliber that you couldn't even compare with the dirt under her fingernails debator! she was obedient and a slave of Allah. She did as her rabb asked her to happily and gladly. She was possessing an intellect that was beyond compare. For years after the prophets(saws) death the sahabah came to her to settle their disputes over the sunnah. She was a servant of Allah and therefore a servant of Rasullulah(saws) as Allah's messenger. Age doesn't even play into the equation of her free will or choice. Whatever her age would have been, if Rasullullah(saws) came and asked for her in marriage she would have been given and gone gladly. this was the Qadr of Allah and Aisha(ra) accepted whatever happened to her better than any of us could hope to. And the joyous happy occasion of her one and only wedding at the age of 9 was a great blessing for her and for us to have such a wonderful mother of the believers to look up to as an example.

craig
02-03-05, 08:32 AM
Interesting name Jahil (it means Ignorant in Arabic).

You have to measure morals by the standards applicable in the concerned age. For example, the concept of living together without marriage which is now acceptable in the judio-christian world. This might be laughable a few centuries from today.
Back then marriage was just a way of 'reserving' a girl. Its like the 'spoken for' concept. This was normal then. Saffiya (ra) which was the daughter of the Jewish King then, was also married to Mohamed (saaws) when she was about 15 and she was already a Divorcee (meaing she was already married before that). She was jewish which meant it was not an islamic custom, but a period custom.

Marriage to a girl that age did not MEAN sexual intercourse, it was just a way to reserve the girl.
Even today, Syrians and other arab countries marry off a girl when she is 16. The intention today is that the girl at that age is educatable in the ways of her husband and doesn't come with fixed ideas that he might not like.so Aisha didn't have any kids for the prophet?

Moayidd
02-03-05, 10:44 AM
so Aisha didn't have any kids for the prophet?

No actually she didnt but as usual you didnt read. The marriage was consumated when she matured. Read my post again. They were married very young but consumation didn't occur until they matured. This was just the custom of their day not an Islamic custom which you can also read in my short post.

craig
02-03-05, 10:59 AM
No actually she didnt but as usual you didnt read. The marriage was consumated when she matured. Read my post again. They were married very young but consumation didn't occur until they matured. This was just the custom of their day not an Islamic custom which you can also read in my short post.M, whats wrong with what i asked? did she have kids or didn't she? i believe it had nothin to do with your post quoted but just a simple question.

Stay Blessed

Debater
02-03-05, 12:07 PM
.. "Even if she never met Muhammad until the very night,
she obviously did not have freewill or a choice in the matter."- debator
The above is not my comment.

I think you haven't gone through all posts from me at least, or you wouldn't ask questions which already have been answered before.

If the narrations about Ummul Momineen's marrying at the age of 6/9 years were AUTHENTIC, I would believe them blindly, because whatever the Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam did was from Allah.

You have continually been missing my primary argument about Ummul Momineen's age, which you can check again in my first post of this thread. Their participating in Badr and Uhud is only supporting my point. But you have based your argument on these only narrations of Badr and Uhud.


ask a few of our muslim brothers and sisters who live in bosnia if the kids know how to pull a ring and throw a grenade.
Kids didn't participate in Badr and Uhud. You can see the evidence in the same post from me.


there are many hadiths about the service of women in the battles and a diference of age between 9-18 isn't that much.
I am interested to see those hadiths about 9-18 year old girls serving in battles.

I would like to add that I haven't brought my personal opinion to prove that Ummul Momineen were around 17 or 22 when they married Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam but I have referred to Sahih Bukhari's authtentic narrations pricipally and supported my arguments with Sahih Muslim and other sources so I expect sadaqah or others to restrict themselves to hadith/history sources instead of giving me examples from their personal life or from any part of this world, because no example other than of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam and his blessed companions is a beacon to me/us.

~Stanley~
02-03-05, 02:25 PM
Age of Ummul Momineen Aishah (r.a) when she married our Prophet (s.a.w)


Q5-Why did Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) have Eleven wives? When a Muslim is allowed to marry a maximum of four wives, how is it that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had eleven wives?

1-MUHAMMAD (PBUH) HYPER-SEXUAL?

Some have falsely accuse the Prophet (pbuh) of being hyper sexual, because he had eleven wives. If you read the life history of the Prophet (pbuh), only two of his marriages one with Khadija (ra), and the other, with Ayesha (ra) were marriages in the normal course. All his other marriages were contracted as a necessity and were based on various considerations.

The first marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) took place when he was 25 years of age and he married Khadija (ra) who was twice widowed, and was 40 years old. If the Prophet (pbuh) was hyper-sexual, why would he marry a woman who was 15 years older than him and already twice widowed?

Until his first wife, Khadija (ra) was alive, he never took a second wife. Khadija (ra) died when the Prophet (pbuh) was 50 years age and only after this, did he marry the others. If he married eleven wives for sexual reasons, he should have had multiple wives during his youth. Contrary to this, history tells us that all his marriages with his remaining ten wives took place when he was between the age of 53 AND 59 YEARS.

All his wives (ra) were between the age of 36 to 50 years, except for two wives (ra). His reputation had spread far and wide, not only in Arabia, but also in the neighboring countries. Could he not have easily got younger and lovelier girls to marry? Most of his marriages were for political gain and for the spread of Islam.

2-THE NORM FOR MARRIAGE IN THAT ERA

The customs at the time for all people almost everywhere except maybe in the Roman Empire, men were to marry as many wives as they wished. In the Hindus scriptures and the Old Testament of the Bible one can not find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. Jesus (pbuh) has not spoken against polygamy though the Jews of his society practiced it. If it was something evil or unclean as some claim, he would have spoken against since he was sent to teach what is right, unless we choose to believe that he did not teach what is right and what was wrong. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago, probably because of the Roman Empire strong influence on Christianity, that the (Roman) Church restricted the number of wives to one. With all that in mind people who lived in Arabia whether they were Jews, early Christians or pagans, were to mary as many wives as they wished. Muhammad (pbuh) and Muslims were living their lives just as anybody else who lived in their ear. (See our article; Islam and the question of polygamy (http://goodislam.com/women/polygamy.htm))

3-ONLY FOUR WIVES IN ISLAM

It was until, the revelation of chapter 4 verse 3, states that a Muslim is allowed to marry a maximum of only four wives. All Muslims who were married to mare than four had to divorce them except for four only. Since there was not any welfare system to take care of these women, other Muslims married them.

As for the case of Muhammed (pbuh), another verse in the Qur’an makes him an exception to this rule.In Surah Ahzab chapter 33 verse 52: "It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as hand maidens) and Allah doth watch over all things ". [Al-Qur’an 33:52]

This verse clearly gives Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the permission to keep all his previous wives but prohibits him to marry any more women except those which his right hand possessed i.e. slave girls.

The Prophet (pbuh) was allowed to keep all his previous wives because no one was allowed to marry the Prophet’s wives (ra) after they were divorced or widowed as they were UMMUL-MOMINEEN (MOTHER OF THE BELIEVERS). As they were considered by everyone to be their mothers, it has become impossible for any Muslim man to marry his mother (the wife of the prophet).

After the revelation of the verse in Surah Ahzab, chapter 33 verse 52, the Prophet (pbuh) only married Mary the Coptic who was a slave girl sent as a present by the Christian Muqauqas of Egypt. Since the Christian Chieftain of Egypt sent Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) a slave girl as a present, he could not refuse this gift as a refusal would have disturbed the political alliance. He could not keep her as a slave girl, since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) preached that slaves should be freed. The only option left with him was to marry her, since the Qur’an gave him the permission to do so. Later on she became the mother of Ibrahim (ra) who died in his infancy.

4-WHY 11 WIVES FOR MUHAMMAD (PBUH)?

In Arabia, no one could carry on the work of reform and uplifting unless he belonged to, or was related to some specific and respectable tribe. Thus, in the interest of his mission, the Prophet (pbuh) needed inter-tribal relationships. He wanted to weld the quarreling tribal and clannish factions into one Muslim body, as brethren in faith (Ikhwan fi’d-din).

For instance, his wife Juwayreeyah (ra) belonged to the Banu Mustaliq clan, which was very powerful. The entire clan was a bitter enemy of Islam from the start, and they were finally suppressed by military action. When the Prophet (pbuh) married Juwayreeyah (ra), the Muslims released all their prisoners, saying that they could not keep the prophet’s relatives in bondage. It was due to this marriage that the whole clan of Banu Mustaliq accepted Islam and became peaceful and obedient to the laws of the new Islaamic state.

Maymunah (ra) also came from a very powerful and recalcitrant clan from Najd and was the sister of the wife of the chief of the clan in those days. It was this clan which had brutally murdered seventy members of an Islaamic missionary deputation. The Prophet’s (pbuh) marriage with Maymunah (ra) changed the whole atmosphere and Najd accepted Madinah’s authority under the leadership of the Prophet (pbuh).

Umm Habibah (ra) was the daughter of the Quraysh chief, Abu Sufyan. It was after the Prophet’s (pbuh) marriage to Umm Habibah, that Abu Sufyan never fought against the Prophet (pbuh). This marriage was largely responsible for the conquest of Makkah. Furthermore, Umm Habibah was first married to a certain Ubaydullah and emigrated with him to Abyssinia, where Ubaydullah became a Christian and a drunkard. Excessive consumption of wine killed him since it was a double shock to her that her husband had become a Christian and later died, she was badly in need of solace.

Safiyyah (ra) was the daughter of a very prominent Jewish chief, Huyyah ibn Aktab. In consideration of her family status, she could not be merged into an ordinary household. So the Prophet (pbuh) himself married her. After this marriage, the Jews did not dare to revive their opposition to the Prophet (pbuh) and his mission.

In the case of Hafsah (ra), it was the Prophet’s (pbuh) desire to bind in relationship with those of his great companions (sahabah) who were his advisers and who were trained for future leadership. He had married Abu Bakr’s (ra) daughter, married two of his own daughters to Uthman (ra) and one to ‘Ali (ra). ‘Umar (ra) could not be kept outside this wide circle of relationship. By marrying Umar’s daughter Hafsah (ra), the Prophet (pbuh) forged a strong bond of relationship within the Islamic movement thus strengthening the pillars of the ummah.

The Prophet (pbuh) had married his first cousin, Zaynab (ra), to his freed slave, Zayd ibn Haritha (ra), whom he had adopted as his son. This marriage of Zaynab (ra) with Zayd (ra) was intended to break the family and social barriers, but the marriage did not prove to be successful and ended in divorce. When the Prophet (pbuh) saw that Zaynab (ra) was left alone, he felt his responsibility in the matter. He also had to break another convention, according to which an adopted son became a real son. This difficult problem was solved by the Prophet’s (pbuh) marriage to Zaynab (ra) (as mentioned in the Qur’an, in Surah Ahzab, chapter no 33 verse 37) to annul that pre-Islamic conception and promulgate an Islamic law instead.

Another lady Zaynab (ra), Umm al Masakin (mother of the poor and helpless), daughter of Khuzayma ibn Al-Haith, belonged to the Hawazin clan. Her husband was killed in the battle of Uhud. To rescue her from widowhood, the Prophet (pbuh) took her as his wife.

A careful examination for the history of Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) reveals that he did not marry for the sexual reasons, he did not marry the most beautiful or the youngest women. Even though he could have done so as he became the ruler of all Muslims and had good relations with neighboring countries as you see in the case of the ruler of Egypt and his gift to Muhammad (pbuh)

If you have a question or a comment that you would like to share with others and us, please feel free to e-mail it to: introducingislam@yahoo.com (introducingislam@yahoo.com)
http://goodislam.com/Miscellaneous/questions/Muhammad.htm

Marwan
02-03-05, 05:55 PM
.

sadaqah
02-03-05, 08:01 PM
as-salaamu-alaikum



no kids didn't participate in those battles. and Aisha at 10 or 11 was a woman. according to the hadith she consummated the marriage at age 9 and she was a woman then. but for the sake of arguement everyone keeps identifying that because she was 9 or 10 or 11 she was a kid. if you like, put the word "person" into the places where i said "kid". today people say you have to be over the age of 18 to be an adult. and some say 21. Quran and Hadith measure the age of adulthood according to each individuals physical maturity. for boys - they become men when their semen runs clear and at that point they become mahrams for their female relatives and are free to marry. for girls - they become women when their body matures (the develope breasts and their figure changes) and they obtain their menses, and there are recorded cases of women being married and consummating their marriages before they acquired menses. so if you want to say there were no children there, then fine - there was a mother of the believers there at age 10 or 11 and she was a married woman. if you want me to forward some hadith showing men who parictipated in the battles at ages under 18 then i can dig those up for you, but i am thinking that you can already think of several men who fought in the battle field at these ages. but we often refer to people under the age of 18 as kids.

Makki
03-03-05, 12:55 AM
this is a very good point.

is a person the day before thier 18th birthday considered a child, only to be considered mature the day after? does this make any sense at all?

i have not grown up and im 18

i know people who are in their mid 20s and still not mature,

alternatively i know people who were mature both physically and mentally at 11, 12, 13...

~Stanley~
03-03-05, 03:23 AM
if you like, put the word "person" into the places where i said "kid".

I do not believe it is the case of labeling a person a child or an adult that is in question here but, rather was Aisha a WILLING participant in the consummation of the marriage to a 50+ year old elder and prominent Leader of the community.

She was a child, told to do this and that, without having a choice in the matter.
I'm sorry to say (and I'm sure people will call for me to be banned) but that is RAPE and PEDOPHILIA.

Debater
03-03-05, 11:26 PM
She was a child, told to do this and that, without having a choice in the matter.
I'm sorry to say (and I'm sure people will call for me to be banned) but that is RAPE and PEDOPHILIA.
If you are a Muslim, you should have made use of decency to prove your point because this goes to the Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.

And sadaqah repeated once again the same approach as propagating her 'own point of view' though I had requested her to bring evidences from hadith/history to prove me/us wrong.

It seems everyone like sadaqah defining things on his/her own criteria/standards, because I never asked when exactly a girl/boy becomes mature or reach puberty. If you people can't reference hadith/history sources then please stop posting because it will only lengthen the thread.

~Stanley~
04-03-05, 05:20 AM
If you are a Muslim, you should have made use of decency to prove your point because this goes to the Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.

Hello Debater,

While I agree that the "use of decency" is always best,
there is no other manner in which to describe the actions being spoken of.
To use softened words would be to do the act an injustice.
Would it not be similar to saying a murderer is only a person with an anger management problem ?

As I understand, all Muslims would regard my words as an affront to their prophet,
and I truly do not mean ill-will.
But, in my viewpoint all I see is a very influential man of the community
who was able to make any demand and have it fulfilled.
We are also speaking of a man in his mid-fifties having sexual relations with a nine year old girl.
The one topic which hasn't been approached in this thread is this:
What reason would Muhammad have for having sexual relations with a nine year old girl ?


Was it for PRO-CREATION ?
Was it for PLEASURE ?
For who's pleasure would it be ?

jamila
04-03-05, 06:09 AM
When she was 9, he was 51.

BTW. In north Africa, until 50 years ago, it was the norm for women to be married by the age of 12.

Nowadays, 25 (after University)

Times change.
;)
So do standards. What you call RAPE and PAEDOPHILIA was simply normal human behaviour.

Remember, the Prophet was married to Aisha fro 3 years before having sexual relations with her.

If he was a Paedophile or Rapist, why didn't he indulge before?


RAPE (n) [3] The action or an act of forcing a person esp. woman or girl, to have sexual intercourse against his or her will. Also, the action or act of buggering a man or boy against his will.
RAPE (v.t) [3] Commit sexual rape on a person, esp. a woman.

PAEDOPHILIA (n) Sexual desire directed towards children.
PAEDOPHILE (n) A person who exhibits paedophilia.

CHILD (n) [1] A foetus; an infant spec. a female infant. [2] a boy or a girl [3] a youth approaching or entering upon manhood (/womanhood).

WOMANHOOD [1.b] The state of being a grown woman; female maturity.
WOMAN. [1] An adult female person, as opp. to a man or a girl. [4] A kept mistress; a female lover or partner; a wife.

ADULT. [1] Grown up, having reached the age of maturity; fully developed
Maturity.

MATURITY. [2] a. the state of having the powers of body and mind fully developed, adult. b. Of or pertaining to manhood (/womanhood).

The border between childhood and adulthood is

PUBERTY. (n) [L. pubertas (or the derived Fr. puberte), from puber-, pubes (adult) + ty] The period during which adolescents reach sexual maturity and become capable of reproduction, destinguished by the appearance of secondary sexual characteristics.

Such as

MENSTRUATION: (n) The process of discharging blood and other material from the lining of the uterus through the vagina, which occurs in sexually mature women (except during and for a time after pregnancy) normally at intervals of one lunar month until the menopause.

These definitions are all from The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.

Now, Stanley, before banning you again (for the slander of Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam) I am giving you a chance to retract the language you use to describe him.

~Stanley~
04-03-05, 06:27 AM
When she was 9, he was 51.
BTW. In north Africa, until 50 years ago, it was the norm for women to be married by the age of 12.
Nowadays, 25 (after University)
Times change.
;)

Hello jamila,

Yes, times certainly do change.
I would like to ask of you, would you be able to supply an answer to my last question of:

Was it for PRO-CREATION ?
Was it for PLEASURE ?
For who's pleasure would it be ?

Afterall, we are talking about the consumation of a marriage.

jamila
04-03-05, 07:09 AM
Both men and women experience pleasure in copulation.
Procreation is the natural result of copulation.

I'd say BOTH are motives to consumate a marriage, wouldn't you?

PS. I added to the post you quoted.

~Stanley~
04-03-05, 08:09 AM
Both men and women experience pleasure in copulation.
Procreation is the natural result of copulation.

I'd say BOTH are motives to consumate a marriage, wouldn't you?

PS. I added to the post you quoted.

The reason I asked such a pointed question is that a nine year old girl in any era,
wouldn't have much of a chance at getting pregnant, if that were the direct goal.
With that in mind, that only leaves pleasure as the motivating factor.
Pleasure between a mature 50+ year old man and a child of nine.

jamila
04-03-05, 06:50 PM
The reason I asked such a pointed question is that a nine year old girl in any era,
wouldn't have much of a chance at getting pregnant, if that were the direct goal.
With that in mind, that only leaves pleasure as the motivating factor.
Pleasure between a mature 50+ year old man and a child of nine.
It depends on whether or not the nine year old has begun menstruating or not, doesn't it?

NORMAL GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT OF ADOLESCENTS (http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/cnoteShowLfts.asp?fname=00376&title=NORMAL+GROWTH+AND+DEVELOPMENT+OF+ADOLESCENTS +&cid=HTHLTH)
Girls start menstruating (monthly blood flow) at about 12 years old. But, a girl may start menstruating as early as 8 years old or as late as 13 1/2.
I'm still waiting for the retraction.

If I have to wait more than 24 hrs, I'll take it you refuse to retract. Fair enough?

PS.
WOMAN: (c.n) [4] A kept mistress; a female lover or partner; a wife.

PUBERTY: (n) [from puber-, ... (adult) + ty] The period ... adolescents reach sexual maturity & become capable of reproduction.

MENSTRUATION: (n) ... occurs in sexually mature women

Debater
04-03-05, 07:17 PM
So stanley is a nonMuslim, I see!
There is no ABSOLUTE (Quranic) proof existing that Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam married an UNDERAGED girl as Ummul Momineen. The only evidence supporting this claim is found in WEAK narrations from Sahih Bukhari, those who regard Sahih Bukhari equal to Quran or Mushaf of Fatimah can believe in such narrations but I believe that no BOOK is Absolutely Correct and Free From Errors except the Book of Allah.

Still if the age of Ummul Momineen was proven to be 9 years when their marriage was consummated I would believe that BLINDLY, because whatever my Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam did was directed by Allah, he sallAllahu alayhe wasallam couldn't do anything without a consent from Allah.

In this thread, me and Muawiya have proven through sound narrations that Ummul Momineen were never 6/9 years old when they married our Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam, but through a series of narrations their age comes to be around 16-22 when they married Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.

~Stanley~
05-03-05, 06:33 AM
If I have to wait more than 24 hrs, I'll take it you refuse to retract. Fair enough?

I have no idea when you made your post but, any time delay is simply due to my not being online 24/7 and not because I refuse to retract any statement I made.

First of all, you take special care to take note of the words I spoke.
I said "much of a chance", indicating that on the very first cycle, a female wouldn't necessarily get pregnant.
Have you become so defensive because of the implication that Muhammad might have derived pleasure from consummating a marriage to such a young girl ?

jamila
05-03-05, 11:39 AM
No, Stanley. I am not being defensive. Just stating the facts as I see them. You are calling the the Messenger of Allah a '50+' 'prominent Muslim Leader' who married a child, Aisha, against her will, because she had no say in the matter, and 'a rapist and paedophile' to boot because she was unwilling (despite having been married to him 3 years before consumation took place).

That is what you have to retract.

You know that kind of talk against the Messsenger of Allah is NOT TOLERATED.

Clear now?

Jamila.

Rizi_Wizi
05-03-05, 12:28 PM
No, Stanley. I am not being defensive. Just stating the facts as I see them. You are calling the the Messenger of Allah a '50+' 'prominent Muslim Leader' who married a child, Aisha, against her will, because she had no say in the matter, and 'a rapist and paedophile' to boot because she was unwilling (despite having been married to him 3 years before consumation took place).

That is what you have to retract.

You know that kind of talk against the Messsenger of Allah is NOT TOLERATED.

Clear now?

Jamila.

Jamila,

Absolutely I couldn't agree more. Such repugnation is completely unfounded and is deeply offensive to the law abiding muslims on this website. Astagfirullah.


[any more unsolicited advice about how I do my job here and it's bye bye to you, too]

~Stanley~
05-03-05, 04:16 PM
You know that kind of talk against the Messsenger of Allah is NOT TOLERATED.

Clear now?

Jamila.



If a previously unrevealed truth were to come to light yet, it ran contrary to the thought's and perceptions of the adherents of Islam, would that revealed truth be buried so as to not cause a disruption or confusion?

Jamila, please believe me when I say that I totally understand why you would call for (and rightly so) a retraction.
I felt the same anger and repulsion when at another time, on another board, an Atheist constantly referred to Jesus as:
" a dead Jew, on a stick "

That remark was intended to cause an inflammation among those who live by faith.
My remarks are not presented with that intension in mind, and I hope you will take that aspect into consideration when judging my words.

Perhaps it is the problem of stating a tangible, physical event on paper or computer monitors where translation of the intent gets lost ?
When one puts down a record of an event such as this and then another reads the facts of the event, the emotions & passions felt during the event are sometimes lost when placed into text.

Muslims say: (I'm paraphrasing here) This marriage is one of honor and justified.
I said: A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old.

Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.

I would offer a retraction, if it was I who began this thread and did so with an accusation.
Although offering a retraction would run counter to the facts which I presented,
I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again.
Would that be enough of a gesture to smooth this matter over and allow my continuing to post on the forum ?

Debater
05-03-05, 08:19 PM
Muslims say: (I'm paraphrasing here) This marriage is one of honor and justified.
I said: A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old.

Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.

I would offer a retraction, if it was I who began this thread and did so with an accusation.
Although offering a retraction would run counter to the facts which I presented,
I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again.
Would that be enough of a gesture to smooth this matter over and allow my continuing to post on the forum ?
Anyone with some intellect and common sense must think at least once over such a marriage.
What I know about my Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam is that HE NEVER WENT AGAINST QURAN, even his marriages with more than 4 women at a time are proven through Quran (if I am not wrong), so how it could happen that RASOOLULLAH sallAllahu alayhe wasallam marries a 6/9 year old girl and it is not validated by Quran.

Then we don't see any Mushrikeen or jews or christians at the time of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam, who put same allegations on Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam as Stanley had questions in his mind. No one can prove that in those days people gave their daughters in marriage when they were 6/9 years old.
SO WHY CAN'T WE FIND A SINGLE ALLEGATION FROM JEWS AND MUSHRIKEEN THAT THEY HAD EVER CALLED OUR PROPHET A PAEDOPHILE (M'AZALLAH)?

The answer is quite easy.
SUCH AN INCIDENT NEVER HAPPENED AS THE PROPHET sallAllahu alayhe wasallam MARRIED UMMUL MOMINEEN WHEN THEY WERE 6/9 YEARS OLD.

Such allegations on Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam have been put by the enemies of Allah and His Rasool, which are shias, so they are KUFIS AND BASRIS (the people of Iraq) who transmitted such BLASPHEMOUS narrations, but
our Muslims are so blind that in believing Imam Bukhari and other Hadith compilers, they don't even for a second think that they are ABUSING their own Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.
They shout and yell when you say a signle word against Imam Bukhari but if a narration from Sahih Bukhari (or any other hadith book) disrespects Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam they welcome it as if it has come from Jannah.
I believe this is the punishment from Allah because we have left HIS BOOK. And we have made hadith books, equal to Quran, whose everything is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT (like Quran), and we have made hadith scholars i.e Imam Bukhari and others like shias' Infallible Imams.

In the end I would like to ask stanley to read Quran and compare the records with Quran in order to reach the truth because Allah has descent Quran and not Sahih Bukhari and other books, and HE HAS PROMISSED TO PROTECT QURAN AND NOT SAHIH BUKHARI etc.
(It doesn't mean that I reject hadiths. I can't. They are the secondary source to learn about Islam.)

jamila
05-03-05, 10:37 PM
Actually, I was reading through the thread and the hadith again, and 'consumation' is described as moving from her father's house to the prophet's house. The hadiths also mention her 'playing with dolls', and having other girls round to visit, and singing and dancing at 'eid, and the Prophet, solla alahu alayhi wassalam, lifting her up to see 'a show' performed by Abbysinian players. It doesn't define 'consumation' as the having of sexual intercourse on her arrival the house he made for her. Naturally, no one knew what went on behind closed doors.

In fact, in Islam, once a man and wife are closetted together in private, it is assumed that the marriage is 'consumated'. That is why there is such a strong edict against non mahram men and women being alone in a room together. And why there must always be a third to witness interractions between the sexes (unless it is between those mahram to each other).

And those who seek to apologise for the early age of marriage to the Prophet, and go from there to abuse scholars like Bukhari and Muslim, I have no patience with them. Hadith are not Qur'an, true. But do any of the hadith on this subject contradict the Qur'an? Not to my knowledge.

jamila
05-03-05, 11:44 PM
I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again.
Would that be enough of a gesture to smooth this matter over and allow my continuing to post on the forum ?
OK. Fair enough.

Moayidd
06-03-05, 01:33 AM
If a previously unrevealed truth were to come to light yet, it ran contrary to the thought's and perceptions of the adherents of Islam, would that revealed truth be buried so as to not cause a disruption or confusion?

Jamila, please believe me when I say that I totally understand why you would call for (and rightly so) a retraction.
I felt the same anger and repulsion when at another time, on another board, an Atheist constantly referred to Jesus as:
" a dead Jew, on a stick "

That remark was intended to cause an inflammation among those who live by faith.
My remarks are not presented with that intension in mind, and I hope you will take that aspect into consideration when judging my words.

Perhaps it is the problem of stating a tangible, physical event on paper or computer monitors where translation of the intent gets lost ?
When one puts down a record of an event such as this and then another reads the facts of the event, the emotions & passions felt during the event are sometimes lost when placed into text.

Muslims say: (I'm paraphrasing here) This marriage is one of honor and justified.
I said: A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old.

Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.

I would offer a retraction, if it was I who began this thread and did so with an accusation.
Although offering a retraction would run counter to the facts which I presented,
I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again.
Would that be enough of a gesture to smooth this matter over and allow my continuing to post on the forum ?

Hello Stan,



Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.



Make that "under the legal and moral code of society in THIS age."

I've answered this issue but for some reason it fell up deaf ears.

1- Marriage didn't mean sexual relationship. It was the norm then to marry
a girl so young until she matured at which point sexual relationship would start.

2- Others at that time did the same thing. Mohamed (Saaws) married Saffeya who was the daughter of the Jewish king. She was 15 and was already a divorcee which means she was married even earlier than 15. This proves that Jews also practiced marriage at that young age.

3- Mohamed (Saaws) didn't marry Aysha for the desire of sexual relationship. If you look at the facts, instead of single cases in isolation, you will find that Mohamed (saaws) married one woman (Khadija) for his entire mature life which is the peak of a mans sexual health. After she died he married no one for years. I beleive at around 50 he married Hafsa who was over 80 and was known for her unfeminine and bad looks. Hence desires and sexual activity wasn't the reason for his marriages otherwise he would have chosen a much younger much more attractive lady of whom plenty were available and plenty would have been more than willing. He maried Hafsa because her husband died in Hijra and Hafsa was left alone.

4- He married a very young girl (aysha) for a reason. We model ourselves after our prophet. While what he did in public was recored by his companions, what he did at home, his personal life no one knew about and could not be recorded. What was needed was someone in his household who was young enough to be able to record all that went on in his personal life. An older lady would be too busy and wouldnt have the clarity of mind to do so. At Ayshas age, with no responsibilities, no sexual or marital obligations and with the recording/registering mind children are known for, she ws able to play that role perfectly. Consequently, 50% of all our hadeeths came from Aysha which proves the point. We now know how our prophet (Saaws) behaved at home, his praying habbits, how long he stayed up praying by night, how he ate, what he ate and what he didnt eat, how he did everything. None of the large amount of similar information came from any other lady he married which were older than Aysha.

Look at the total picture.
.
.
.

~Stanley~
06-03-05, 05:05 AM
Hello Stan,

Originally Posted by Stanley
Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.




Make that "under the legal and moral code of society in THIS age."
.

Hello Moayidd,
While I have made a promise to not take part in this discussion to Jamilla,
I would like to make one last point regarding my quote above.



in which I live


in THIS age

We seem to be saying the same thing, only using different words.

~Stanley~
06-03-05, 05:07 AM
OK. Fair enough.

Thank you for your understanding, equal treatment & fairness.

Moayidd
06-03-05, 05:09 AM
Hello Moayidd,
While I have made a promise to not take part in this discussion to Jamilla,
I would like to make one last point regarding my quote above.

We seem to be saying the same thing, only using different words.

Which means that what you do in this age in which you live now might be totally unacceptable, morally, ethically and socially, 500 hundred years from today.
Does this make it wrong now ?
I know you can't answer, but at least i have hopefully clarifies things for you a bit.
.
.
.

Debater
06-03-05, 03:16 PM
Actually, I was reading through the thread and the hadith again, and 'consumation' is described as moving from her father's house to the prophet's house. The hadiths also mention her 'playing with dolls', and having other girls round to visit, and singing and dancing at 'eid, and the Prophet, solla alahu alayhi wassalam, lifting her up to see 'a show' performed by Abbysinian players. It doesn't define 'consumation' as the having of sexual intercourse on her arrival the house he made for her. Naturally, no one knew what went on behind closed doors.
All you are doing is the 'guess work'.
The alleged statement of Ummul Momineen in Hisham's narrations is the marriage was consummated when Ummul Momineen were 9 years old. This is a clear statement. So you don't have any choice left. I know even your mind is not accepting that, that is why you are saying that marriage wouldn't have been consummated literally.


And those who seek to apologise for the early age of marriage to the Prophet, and go from there to abuse scholars like Bukhari and Muslim, I have no patience with them. Hadith are not Qur'an, true. But do any of the hadith on this subject contradict the Qur'an? Not to my knowledge.
No one is appologetic.
Only those are APPOLOGETIC who are defending fallibles like Imam Bukhari or Imam Hisham or Imam Kufi or Imam Basri or Imam Iraqi.
What they must have done and they are not doing is that THEY ARE NOT DEFENDING RASOOLULLAH sallAllahu alayhe wasallam and the MOTHER OF BELIEVERS, SAIYIDAH 'AISHAH TAIYIBAH radhiyAllahu 'anha.

Anyways to open eyes of people, I would like to quote the reply of an Aalim to the same question. You can see how Aalim sahab is avoiding the REAL QUESTION.

SOURCE: http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12673

Q-Is the Hadith True Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old...

POLYGAMOUS LIFE OF RASULULLAH (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam)

Allah Taãla has given certain priviledges only to Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) which are mentioned in Chapter 33 vs 50-51. Among other priviledges one was having more than four wives simultaneously. Allah Taãla says, 'Oh Nabi (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) we have made permissible for you your wives.' (Ahzaab 33-50). The polygamous marriages of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) to more than four wives simultaneously should be viewed as obeying the order of Allah Taãla to do so. It was not merely a means of fulfilling his carnal desires as many people allege. The Arab environment was infested with many evils among which was adultery and fornication. Despite living in such an environment, he never indulged in this evil act. His modesty was so popular among his people that when the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) claimed prophethood, his people made every effort to disgrace him by accusing him of being a poet, practising witchcraft, of being insane, etc. However, nobody ever accused him of any act of immodesty. The Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) was very handsome and attractive. Many beautiful women from honourable families even proposed marriage to Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) but he declined. Instead, when he was only 25 years of age he married a widow who had children from her previous marriage. Considering the fact that he was the most handsome person that Allah Taãla has created, many women desired him in marriage. Had he followed his desires, there was no obstacle for him to do so. In his youth, he could have had many many beautiful women, but he married a widow 15 years his senior. He lived with her for 25 years and she bore all the children of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) except one. When Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) was 50 years of age, Hadhrat Khadija (Radhiallaahu Ánha) passed away. Those 25 years of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)'s marriage was a monogamous one. The polygamous marriage was only after he attained the age of 50.

AFTER 50 YEARS
He married Hadhrat Sawdah and Áaisha (Radhiallaahu Ánhuma). Sawda (Radhiallaahu Ánha) lived with him immediately but Áaisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) came to live with him in the year 2 AH. when he was approximately 54 years of age.

55 YEARS (3 AH.)
He married Hadhrath Hafsa (Radhiallaahu Ánha). After a few months, he married Hadhrat Zaynab bin Khuzaymah (Radhiallaahu Ánha) who lived with him for only 3 or 18 months (as recorded in different narrations) before she passed away.

56 YEARS (4 AH.)
He married Umme Salma (Radhiallaahu Ánha)

57 YEARS (5 AH.)
He married Zaynab (Radhiallaahu Ánha)

58 YEARS (6 AH)
He married Hadhrat Juwayriyah (Radhiallaahu Ánha)

59 YEARS (7 AH.)
First he married Umme Habibah then Safiyyah then Maymoonah (Radhiallaahu Ánhunna) in one year.

From the above explanation, it is clear that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam)'s marriage was a monogamous one till he was 50 years. His polygamous marriages, mostly to widows were after the age of 50 with the command of Allah Taãla. Had Nabi (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) followed his carnal desires, he would have married all virgins and changed them in short periods of time. Since the polygamous marriages of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) was by the order of Allah, therefore, the wisdom of that order cannot be questioned nor comprehended. However, according to our limited understanding, the wisdom underlying the polygamous marriages of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) was:
1. Since Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) came as a teacher to mankind, there are many avenues of a person's domestic life which had to be conveyed to the Ummah. It was the many wives of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) who had the knowledge of these aspects and fulfilled their responsibility by conveying the teachings of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) to the Ummah. Consider the following:
Áaisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) alone narrated approximately 2210 Ahaadith with regard to different laws, character, ettiquettes, etc. The narrations of Hadhrat Umme Salma (Radhiallaahu Ánhu) totals up to 378. Hafiz ibn Qayyim (RA) mentions that if the Fataawa of Hadhrat Umme Salma (RA) had to be gathered which she gave after the demise of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam), then the need would arise to compile an entire book. The total students of Áaisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) are approximately 200 and she taught Deeni knowledge for 48 years consecutively after the demise of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam).
2. The mission of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) was to convert people and propagate Islam. By marrying one woman, her entire tribe had accepted Islam. This was done by virtue of marrying that woman.
3. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) had to transform the evils of the society by practice. The people shunned marrying widows especially if they already had children from their previous husbands. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) married a widow and thereby changed the wrong ideology of the people. Likewise, he reformed the society that abused the orphans by caring for the orphans of the women he married.

These are but just a few wisdoms of the polygamous marriages of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam).


Mufti Ebrahim Desai

reachin'out
06-03-05, 04:02 PM
Just an observation, Debater.

Where does Mufti Ebrahim Desai mention Aisha was 19 when she married the Rasul, solla ahllahu alayhi wassalam?

Hisham was an Historian, not a collector of Hadith, and his sources are notoriously slack in Sanad.

PS. This thread is extremely ancient and I contributed my bit (of sustance) around the second or third page, a little after Abu Mubarak contributed his.

Debater
06-03-05, 07:04 PM
Where does Mufti Ebrahim Desai mention Aisha was 19 when she married the Rasul, solla ahllahu alayhi wassalam?

Hisham was an Historian, not a collector of Hadith, and his sources are notoriously slack in Sanad.

I didn't mean that Mufti Ebrahim said something about the age. My point was he didn't say anything about the age of Ummul Momineen. He avoided the real question and discussed something else as why Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam had more than 4 wives or polygamous life. Our 'ulama don't address this topic, because they simply can't. I don't say they are not scholars. They are scholars, they must have vast knowledge of nubuwwah but most of them are blind followers of predecessors, they sometimes don't behave like the blind followers of Muhammad sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.

Disrespecting Imam Bukhari or anyone else is not my mission. If it was then it would be simply foolishness. Imam Bukhari did what a good Muslim could do. He collected and compiled the hadiths of Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam. But Imam Bukhari never claimed to be a Ma'sum (sinless) Imam. It is only our 'ulama (scholars) of the present era who made him an Infallible Imam (though our preceding 'ulama were much better, they did criticise Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim etc). So they regard everything in Bukhari as an ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. They forget that Imam Bukhari (and other hadith scholars) was (were) a mere human(s). So he could make mistakes in his collection. And I am sure Allah would have made him make mistakes, or else he would be our Infallible Imam. So we must depend on Quran and stick to it as the only ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. Hadiths would be consulted as a secondary source, and if some narration goes against Quran or accepted principles of science of hadith, the narration would be abandoned.

Hisham (not Ibn Hisham) is not a historian. He is the grandson of Hadhrat Asma radhiyAllahu 'anha, so he is the grand nephew of Ummul Momineen. Hisham bin 'Urwah bin Zubayr was a RELIABLE narrator of hadiths via Ummul Momineen/'Urwah untill he was in Medina, after I think 71 years of his age he moved to Iraq and LOST HIS CREDIBILITY (according to scholars of hadith and Rijaal). All hadiths about Ummul Momineen's being 6/9 years old at the time of their marriage, their playing with dolls etc have been narrated by these PEOPLE OF IRAQ (kufis, basris) which was the strong hold of Munafiqeen who FABRICATED hadiths under the Flag of TAQIYYAH. So how can we believe in such narrations which have been transmitted through Hisham (after he moved to Iraq) and Kufis and Basris.

Another thing is that if we for a second forget about anything of Hisham's narrations about Ummul Momineen's age, we won't have anything sound to claim that Ummul Momineen were 6/9 years old when married rather we will have very sound and reliable evidences which will prove otherwise i.e their age around 16-22 when getting married.
Majority of our 'ulama stick to Hisham's narrations and on the basis of Hisham's narrations they INTERPRET (the famous game) other sound narrations. Because INTERPRETATION IS A TOOL WITH WHICH YOU CAN MAKE POTATOES OUT OF TOMATOES.

reachin'out
06-03-05, 07:46 PM
Whatever you say, debater. I'm not really bothered about the issue, except where people call our prophet, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, a paedophile and worse. I don't debate for the sake of disagreeing with you or anyone. I had my say on this thread about two years ago. That's enough for me.

Songbird
09-03-05, 02:18 AM
I do not believe it is the case of labeling a person a child or an adult that is in question here but, rather was Aisha a WILLING participant in the consummation of the marriage to a 50+ year old elder and prominent Leader of the community.

She was a child, told to do this and that, without having a choice in the matter.
I'm sorry to say (and I'm sure people will call for me to be banned) but that is RAPE and PEDOPHILIA.



Amazing how Stanley was allowed to say such a thing and get away with it.

Ummah.com must have seriously have lowered its standards.

Siddiqa
10-03-05, 02:25 AM
Okay... this is getting out of hand.

It did the time Stanley called the Prophet (saws) a paedophile. This is a muslim forum, aren't the non-muslims required to follow some sort of code of conduct here!?

Its one thing to question... and another to blasphemise. I'd not have spoken had this not been for the Prophet (saws). We, as muslims know what his (saws) status is, in Islam.... for muslims and I am sure when any of the non-muslims here wish to discuss some issues they can do so without vilifying. Right!?

I request moderators to give some attention to this... and draw up some rules and regulations in this regard, as required.

jamila
11-03-05, 05:59 AM
Songbird and Siddiqa,

Stanley said, "A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old."

Although this discription clearly implied the 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community was Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, be avoided using a direct reference to him.

He then went on to say,

Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.

Which clearly leaves room for the fact that the act may not be considered such in different times and societies.

There is no overt reference to the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi wassalam) being what he described.

And he apolologised with:

"I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again".

Since he has stopped his foul talk, can I fairly 'cut him off'?

Siddiqa
11-03-05, 06:23 AM
Songbird and Siddiqa,

Stanley said, "A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old."

Although this discription clearly implied the 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community was Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, be avoided using a direct reference to him.

He then went on to say,

Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.

Which clearly leaves room for the fact that the act may not be considered such in different times and societies.

There is no overt reference to the Prophet (solla allahu alayhi wassalam, being what he described.

And he apolologised with:

"I will offer an apology for entering into this discussion and promise not to discuss this sensitive issue on this forum again".

Since he has stopped his foul talk, can I fairly 'cut him off'?


Fair enough!

Its been cleared... and I will not have more to say, no reason to. The gist of my message on this thread was to make it be known that there has to be a limitation to the discussions and questioning... not in a repressive manner... rather in a respectful one. And it can be done, in fact should be done.

Anyways, its been cleared... therefore, I leave it at that.

Thanks!

Songbird
11-03-05, 07:18 AM
Songbird and Siddiqa,

Stanley said, "A 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community married a child, age six and then consummated (apparently) this marriage three years later when this young girl was nine years old."

Although this discription clearly implied the 50+ year old Prominent Leader in the community was Muhammad, solla allahu alayhi wassalam, be avoided using a direct reference to him.
It's purely semantics Jamila, but ultimately you and the rest of the mods have the final say.

However, unlike you [all], I see this as Stanley insulting our beloved Nabi swt, whether he did it directly or indirectly, matters little to me. Lucky for him I'm not on the mod team I guess.

salmank2
14-03-05, 03:03 PM
Any one know when she died? and how she died? and where is her grave?

a mu-min
14-03-05, 04:23 PM
Aishah bint Abi Bakr



The life of Aishah is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also proof that a woman can exert influence over men and women and provide them with inspiration and leadership. Her life is also proof that the same woman can be totally feminine and be a source of pleasure, joy and comfort to her husband.
She did not graduate from any university there were no universities as such in her day. But still her utterances are studied in faculties of literature, her legal pronouncements are studied in colleges of law and her life and works are studied and researched by students and teachers of Muslim history as they have been for over a thousand years.

The bulk of her vast treasure of knowledge was obtained while she was still quite young. In her early childhood she was brought up by her father who was greatly liked and respected for he was a man of wide knowledge, gentle manners and an agreeable presence. Moreover he was the closest friend of the noble Prophet who was a frequent visitor to their home since the very early days of his mission.

In her youth, already known for her striking beauty and her formidable memory, she came under the loving care and attention of the Prophet himself. As his wife and close companion she acquired from him knowledge and insight such as no woman has ever acquired.

Aishah became the Prophet's wife in Makkah when she was most likely in the tenth year of her life but her wedding did not take place until the second year after the Hijrah when she was about fourteen or fifteen years old. Before and after her wedding she maintained a natural jollity and innocence and did not seem at all overawed by the thought of being wedded to him who was the Messenger of God whom all his companions, including her own mother and father, treated with such love and reverence as they gave to no one else.

About her wedding, she related that shortly before she was to leave her parent's house, she slipped out into the courtyard to play with a passing friend:

"I was playing on a see-saw and my long streaming hair was dishevelled," she said. "They came and took me from my play and made me ready."

They dressed her in a wedding-dress made from fine red-striped cloth from Bahrain and then her mother took her to the newly-built house where some women of the Ansar were waiting outside the door. They greeted her with the words "For good and for happiness may all be well!" Then, in the presence of the smiling Prophet, a bowl of milk was brought. The Prophet drank from it himself and offered it to Aishah. She shyly declined it but when he insisted she did so and then offered the bowl to her sister Asma who was sitting beside her. Others also drank of it and that was as much as there was of the simple and solemn occasion of their wedding. There was no wedding feast.

Marriage to the Prophet did not change her playful ways. Her young friends came regularly to visit her in her own apartment.

"I would be playing with my dolls," she said, "with the girls who were my friends, and the Prophet would come in and they would slip out of the house and he would go out after them and bring them back, for he was pleased for my sake to have them there." Sometimes he would say "Stay where you are" before they had time to leave, and would also join in their games. Aishah said: "One day, the Prophet came in when I was playing with the dolls and he said: 'O Aishah, whatever game is this?' 'It is Solomon's horses,' I said and he laughed." Sometimes as he came in he would screen himself with his cloak so as not to disturb Aishah and her friends.

Aishah's early life in Madinah also had its more serious and anxious times. Once her father and two companions who were staying with him fell ill with a dangerous fever which was common in Madinah at certain seasons. One morning Aishah went to visit him and was dismayed to find the three men lying completely weak and exhausted. She asked her father how he was and he answered her in verse but she did not understand what he was saying. The two others also answered her with lines of poetry which seemed to her to be nothing but unintelligible babbling. She was deeply troubled and went home to the Prophet saying:

"They are raving, out of their minds, through the heat of the fever." The Prophet asked what they had said and was somewhat reassured when she repeated almost word for word the lines they had uttered and which made sense although she did not fully understand them then. This was a demonstration of the great retentive power of her memory which as the years went by were to preserve so many of the priceless sayings of the Prophet.

Of the Prophet's wives in Madinah, it was clear that it was Aishah that he loved most. From time to time, one or the other of his companions would ask:

"O Messenger of God, whom do you love most in the world?" He did not always give the same answer to this question for he felt great love for many for his daughters and their children, for Abu Bakr, for Ali, for Zayd and his son Usamah. But of his wives the only one he named in this connection was Aishah. She too loved him greatly in return and often would seek reassurance from him that he loved her. Once she asked him: "How is your love for me?"

"Like the rope's knot," he replied meaning that it was strong and secure. And time after time thereafter, she would ask him: "How is the knot?" and he would reply: "Ala haaliha in the same condition."

As she loved the Prophet so was her love a jealous love and she could not bear the thought that the Prophet's attentions should be given to others more than seemed enough to her. She asked him:

"O Messenger of God, tell me of yourself. If you were between the two slopes of a valley, one of which had not been grazed whereas the other had been grazed, on which would you pasture your flocks?"

"On that which had not been grazed," replied the Prophet. "Even so," she said, "and I am not as any other of your wives. "Everyone of them had a husband before you, except myself." The Prophet smiled and said nothing. Of her jealousy, Aishah would say in later years:

"I was not, jealous of any other wife of the Prophet as I was jealous of Khadijah, because of his constant mentioning of her and because God had commanded him to give her good tidings of a mansion in Paradise of precious stones. And whenever he sacrificed a sheep he would send a fair portion of it to those who had been her intimate friends. Many a time I said to him: "It is as if there had never been any other woman in the world except Khadijah."

Once, when Aishah complained and asked why he spoke so highly of "an old Quraysh woman", the Prophet was hurt and said: "She was the wife who believed in me when others rejected me. When people gave me the lie, she affirmed my truthfulness. When I stood forsaken, she spent her wealth to lighten the burden of my sorrow.."

Despite her feelings of jealousy which nonetheless were not of a destructive kind, Aishah was really a generous soul and a patient one. She bore with the rest of the Prophet's household poverty and hunger which often lasted for long periods. For days on end no fire would be lit in the sparsely furnished house of the Prophet for cooking or baking bread and they would live merely on dates and water. Poverty did not cause her distress or humiliation; self-sufficiency when it did come did not corrupt her style of life.

Once the Prophet stayed away from his wives for a month because they had distressed him by asking of him that which he did not have. This was after the Khaybar expedition when an increase of riches whetted the appetite for presents. Returning from his self-imposed retreat, he went first to Aishah's apartment. She was delighted to see him but he said he had received Revelation which required him to put two options before her. He then recited the verses:

"O Prophet! Say to your wives: If you desire the life of this world and its adornments, then come and I will bestow its goods upon you, and I will release you with a fair release. But if you desire God and His Messenger and the abode of the Hereafter, then verily God has laid in store for you an immense reward for such as you who do good."

Aishah's reply was:

"Indeed I desire God and His Messenger and the abode of the Hereafter," and her response was followed by all the others.

She stuck to her choice both during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards. Later when the Muslims were favored with enormous riches, she was given a gift of one hundred thousand dirhams. She was fasting when she received the money and she distributed the entire amount to the poor and the needy even though she had no provisions in her house. Shortly after, a maidservant said to her: "Could you buy meat for a dirham with which to break your fast?"

"If I had remembered, I would have done so," she said. The Prophet's affection for Aishah remained to the last. During his final illness, it was to Aishah's apartment that he went at the suggestion of his wives. For much of the time he lay there on a couch with his head resting on her breast or on her lap. She it was who took a toothstick from her brother, chewed upon it to soften it and gave it to the Prophet. Despite his weakness, he rubbed his teeth with it vigorously. Not long afterwards, he lost consciousness and Aishah thought it was the onset of death, but after an hour he opened his eyes.

Aishah it is who has preserved for us these dying moments of the most honoured of God's creation, His beloved Messenger may He shower His choicest blessings on him.

When he opened his eyes again, Aishah remembered Iris having said to her: "No Prophet is taken by death until he has been shown his place in Paradise and then offered the choice, to live or die."

"He will not now choose us," she said to herself. Then she heard him murmur: "With the supreme communion in Paradise, with those upon whom God has showered His favor, the Prophets, the martyrs and the righteous..." Again she heard him murmur: "O Lord, with the supreme communion," and these were the last words she heard him speak. Gradually his head grew heavier upon her breast, until others in the room began to lament, and Aishah laid his head on a pillow and joined them in lamentation.

In the floor of Aishah's room near the couch where he was lying, a grave was dug in which was buried the Seal of the Prophets amid much bewilderment and great sorrow.

Aishah lived on almost fifty years after the passing away of the Prophet. She had been his wife for a decade. Much of this time was spent in learning and acquiring knowledge of the two most important sources of God's guidance, the Quran and the Sunnah of His Prophet. Aishah was one of three wives (the other two being Hafsah and Umm Salamah) who memorized the Revelation. Like Hafsah, she had her own script of the Quran written after the Prophet had died.

So far as the Ahadith or sayings of the Prophet is concerned, Aishah is one of four persons (the others being Abu Hurayrah, Abdullah ibn Umar, and Anas ibn Malik) who transmitted more than two thousand sayings. Many of these pertain to some of the most intimate aspects of personal behavior which only someone in Aishah's position could have learnt. What is most important is that her knowledge of hadith was passed on in written form by at least three persons including her nephew Urwah who became one of the greatest scholars among the generation after the Companions.

Many of the learned companions of the Prophet and their followers benefitted from Aishah's knowledge. Abu Musa al-Ashari once said: "If we companions of the Messenger of God had any difficulty on a matter, we asked Aishah about it."

Her nephew Urwah asserts that she was proficient not only in fiqh but also in medicine (tibb) and poetry. Many of the senior companions of the Prophet came to her to ask for advice concerning questions of inheritance which required a highly skilled mathematical mind. Scholars regard her as one of the earliest fuqaha of Islam along with persons like Umar ibn al-Khattab, Ali and Abdullah ibn Abbas. The Prophet referring to her extensive knowledge of Islam is reported to have said: "Learn a portion of your religion (din) from this red colored lady." "Humayra" meaning "Red-coloured" was an epithet given to Aishah by the Prophet.

Aishah not only possessed great knowledge but took an active part in education and social reform. As a teacher she had a clear and persuasive manner of speech and her power of oratory has been described in superlative terms by al-Ahnaf who said: "I have heard speeches of Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman and Ali and the Khulafa up to this day, but I have not heard speech more persuasive and more beautiful from the mouth of any person than from the mouth of Aishah."

Men and women came from far and wide to benefit from her knowledge. The number of women is said to have been greater than that of men. Besides answering enquiries, she took boys and girls, some of them orphans, into her custody and trained them under her care and guidance. This was in addition to her relatives who received instruction from her. Her house thus became a school and an academy.

Some of her students were outstanding. We have already mentioned her nephew Urwah as a distinguished reporter of hadith. Among her women pupils is the name of Umrah bint Abdur Rahman. She is regarded by scholars as one of the trustworthy narrators of hadith and is said to have acted as Aishah's secretary receiving and replying to letters addressed to her. The example of Aishah in promoting education and in particular the education of Muslim women in the laws and teachings of Islam is one which needs to be followed.

After Khadijah al-Kubra (the Great) and Fatimah az-Zahra (the Resplendent), Aishah as-Siddiqah (the one who affirms the Truth) is regarded as the best woman in Islam. Because of the strength of her personality, she was a leader in every field in knowledge, in society, in politics and in war. She often regretted her involvement in war but lived long enough to regain position as the most respected woman of her time. She died in the year 58 AH in the month of Ramadan and as she instructed, was buried in the Jannat al-Baqi in the City of Light, beside other companions of the Prophet.

a mu-min
14-03-05, 10:18 PM
know one nows if muwaiyeh was a true muslim or a hypocrite only allah knows the hearts of man and can you please bring proof and evidence.

a mu-min
14-03-05, 10:25 PM
abu sufyan ibn harith


Rarely can one find a closer bond between two persons such as existed between Muhammad the son of Abdullah and Abu Sufyan the son of al-Harith. (This Abu Sufyan of course was not the same as Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, the powerful Quraysh chieftain.)
Abu Sufyan ibn al-Harith was born about the same time as the blessed Prophet. They resembled each other a great deal. They grew up together and for a time lived in the same household. Abu Sufyan was a cousin of the Prophet. His father, al-Harith, was the brother of Abdullah; both were sons of Abd al-Muttalib.

Abu Sufyan was also a foster-brother of the Prophet. He was for a short time nursed by the lady Halimah who looked after the young Muhammad in the tough and bracing atmosphere of the desert.

In their childhood and youth, Abu Sufyan and Muhammad were close and intimate friends. So close were they, that one might naturally have expected Abu Sufyan to have been among the first to respond to the call of the Prophet, peace be upon him, and follow wholeheartedly the religion of truth. But this was not to be, at least not for many, many years.

From the time the Prophet made public his call to Islam and first issued the warning to members of his clan about the dangers of continuing in their existing state of unbelief, injustice and immorality, the fire of envy and hatred erupted in the breast of Abu Sufyan. The bonds of kinship snapped. Where once there was love and friendship, there was now revulsion and hate. Where once there was brotherhood, there was now resistance and opposition.

Abu Sufyan at this time was renowned as one of the best fighters and horsemen of the Quraysh and one of their most accomplished poets. He used both sword and tongue in the battle against the Prophet and his mission. All his energies were mobilized in denouncing Islam and persecuting the Muslims. In whatever battle the Quraysh fought against the Prophet and whatever torture and persecution they meted out to the Muslims Abu Sufyan had a part to play. He composed and recited verses attacking and vilifying the Prophet.

For twenty years almost this rancor consumed his soul. His three others brothers - Nawfal, Rabiah and Abdullah, had all accepted Islam but not he.

In the eighth year after the Hijrah, however, shortly before the Islamic liberation of Makkah, Abu Sufyan's position began to shift, as he explains: "When the movement of Islam became vigorous and well-established and news spread of the Prophet's advance to liberate Makkah, the world caved in on me. I felt trapped. 'Where shall I go?' I asked myself. 'And with whom?' To my wife and children, I said:

'Get ready to leave Makkah. Muhammad's advance is imminent. I shall certainly be killed. I shall be given no quarter should the Muslims recognize me.'

'Now,' replied my family, 'you must realize that Arabs and non-Arabs have pledged their obedience to Muhammad and accepted his religion. You are still bent on opposing him whereas you might have been the first to support and help him.'

They continued trying to influence me to re-consider my attitude to Muhammad's religion and to re-awaken in me affection towards him. Eventually God opened my heart to Islam. I got up and said to my servant, Madhkur: 'Get ready a camel and a horse for us.' I took my son Jafar with me and we galloped with great speed towards al-Abwa between Makkah and Madinah. I had learnt that Muhammad had camped there. As I approached the place, I covered my face so that no one could recognize and kill me before I could reach the Prophet and announce my acceptance of Islam directly to him.

Slowly, I proceeded on foot while advance groups of Muslims headed towards Makkah. I avoided their path out of fear that one of the Prophet's companions would recognize me. I continued in this fashion until the Prophet on his mount came into my view. Coming out into the open, I went straight up to him and uncovered my face. He looked at me and recognized me. But, he turned his face away. I moved to face him once again. He avoided looking at me and again turned away his face. This happened repeatedly.

I had no doubt - as I stood there facing the Prophet that he would have been pleased with my acceptance of Islam and that his companions would have rejoiced at his happiness. When, however, the Muslims saw the Prophet, peace be on him, avoiding me, they too looked at me and shunned me. Abu Bakr met me and violently turned away. I looked at Umar ibn al-Khattab, my eyes pleading for his compassion, but I found him even more harsh than Abu Bakr. In fact, Umar went on to incite one of the Ansar against me.

'O enemy of God,' lashed out the Ansari, 'you are the one who persecuted the Messenger of God, peace be on him, and tortured his companions. You carried your hostility towards the Prophet to the ends of the earth'.

The Ansari went on censuring me in a loud voice while other Muslims glared at me in anger. At that point, I saw my uncle, al-Abbas, and went to him seeking refuge.

'O uncle,' I said. 'I had hoped that the Prophet, peace be on him, would be happy about my acceptance of Islam because of my kinship to him and because of my position of honor among my people. You know what his reaction has been. Speak to him then on my behalf that he may be pleased with me.'

'No, by God,' replied my uncle. 'I shall not speak to him at all after I have seen him turning away from you except if an opportunity presents itself. I do honor the Prophet, peace and blessings of God be on him, and I stand in awe of him.'

'O uncle, to whom then will you abandon me?' I pleaded.

'I do not have anything for you except what you have heard,' he said.

Anxiety and grief took hold of me. I saw Ali ibn Talib soon after and spoke to him about my case. His response was the same as that of my uncle. I went back to my uncle and said to him: 'O uncle, if you cannot soften the heart of the Prophet towards me, then at least restrain that man from denouncing me and inciting others against me.'

'Describe him to me,' said my uncle. I described the man to him and he said: 'That is Nuayman ibn al-Harith an-Najjari.' He sent for Nuayman and said to him: 'O Nuayman! Abu Sufyan is the cousin of the Prophet and my nephew. If the Prophet is angry with him today, he will be pleased with him another day. So leave him...' My uncle continued trying to placate Nuayman until the latter relented and said: 'I shall not spurn him anymore.'

"When the Prophet reached al-Jahfah (about four days journey from Makkah), I sat down at the door of his tent. My son Jafar stood beside me. As he was leaving his tent, the Prophet saw me and averted his face. Yet, I did not despair of seeking his pleasure. Whenever he camped at a place, I would sit at his door and my son Jafar would stand in front of me... I continued in this fashion for some time. But the situation became too much for me and I became depressed. I said to myself:

'By God, either the Prophet, peace be on him, shows he is pleased with me or I shall take my son and go wandering through the land until we die of hunger and thirst.'

When the Prophet came to hear of this, he relented and, on leaving his tent, he looked more gently towards me then before. I so much hoped that he would smile."

Eventually the Prophet relented and told Abu Sufyan, "There is now no blame on you." He entrusted the newcomer to Islam to Ali ibn Abi Talib saying: "Teach your cousin how to perform wudu and about the Sunnah. Then bring him back to me." When Ali returned, the Prophet said:

"Tell all the people that the Messenger of God is pleased with Abu Sufyan and that they should be pleased with him."

Abu Sufyan continued: "The Prophet then entered Makkah and I too entered in his entourage. He went to the Sacred Mosque and I also went, trying my best to remain in his presence and not separate from him on any account...

Later, at the Battle of Hunayn. the Arabs put together an unprecedented force against the Prophet, peace be on him... They were determined to deal a mortal blow to Islam and the Muslims.

The Prophet went out to confront them with a large number of his companions. I went out with him and when I saw the great throngs of mushrikin, I said: 'By God. today, I shall atone for all my past hostility towards the Prophet. peace be on him, and he shall certainly see on my part what pleases God and what pleases him.'

When the two forces met, the pressure of the mushrikin on the Muslims was severe and the Muslims began to lose heart. Some even began to desert and terrible defeat stared us in the face. However, the Prophet stood firm in the thick of battle astride his mule "Ash-Shahba" like a towering mountain, wielding his sword and fighting for himself and those around him... I jumped from my horse and fought beside him. God knows that I desired martyrdom beside the Messenger of God. My uncle, al-Abbas, took the reins of the Prophet's mule and stood at his side. I took up my position on the other side. With my right hand I fended off attacks against the Prophet and with my left I held on to my mount.

When the Prophet saw my devastating blows on the enemy, he asked my uncle: 'Who's this?' 'This is your brother and cousin. Abu Sufyan ibn al-Harith. Be pleased with him. O Messenger of God.'

'I have done so and God has granted forgiveness to him for all the hostility he has directed against me.'

My heart soared with happiness. I kissed his feet in the stirrup and wept. He turned towards me and said: 'My brother! Upon my life! Advance and strike!'

The words of the Prophet spurred me on and we plunged into the positions of the mushrikin until they were routed and fled in every direction."

After Hunayn, Abu Sufyan ibn al-Harith continued to enjoy the good pleasure of the Prophet and the satisfaction of being in his noble company. But he never looked the Prophet directly in the eye nor focussed his gaze on his face out of shame and embarrassment for his past hostility towards him.

Abu Sufyan continued to feel intense remorse for the many and dark days he had spent trying to extinguish the light of God and refusing to follow His message. Henceforth, his days and nights he would spend reciting the verses of the Quran. seeking to understand and follow its laws and profit by its admonitions. He shunned the world and its adornments and turned to God with every fibre of his being. Once the Prophet. peace be on him, saw him entering the mosque and asked his wife: "Do you know who is this, Aishah?" "No, O Messenger of God." she replied. This is my cousin. Abu Sufyan ibn al-Harith. See, he is the first to enter the masjid and the last to leave. His eyes do not leave his shoelace."

When the Prophet, peace be on him, passed away, Abu Sufyan felt intense grief and wept bitterly.

During the caliphate of Umar, may God be pleased with him, Abu Sufyan felt his end drawing near. One day people saw him in al-Baqi, the cemetery not far from the Prophet's mosque where many Sahabah are buried. He was digging and fashioning a grave. They were surprised. Three days later, Abu Sufyan was lying stretched out at home His family stood around weeping but he said: "Do not weep for me. By God, I did not commit any wrong since I accepted Islam." With that, he passed away.

salmank2
14-03-05, 10:33 PM
That's what the references are there for. :)

Hasan2004
15-03-05, 12:04 AM
Your references are weak sources!

Why?

1. Two Muslims are meeting alone? Especially Male and Female! How is this possible? Especially the earlier episode do you think Aisha(raa) would repeat a similar scenerio? As a Politician, Muawiyah(raa), would not commit the mistake of meeting alone with a woman because then the word would spread and he would lose his leadership. Responding to this:

"Mauweyah invited Ayesha for dinner,

2. There are various historical and many accounts that Muawiyah(raa) fought the Romans!!! many! and Many companions fought under Muawiyah(raa) leadership especially the cousin of Prophet Muhammad(saaw),Qutham Bin Abbas(raa)!

3. Aisha(raa) is buried at Jannatul Baqie ! There are many graves which are not marked!

4. Who is Alama Ibn Khaldoon?

5. Oh by the way, the trap described is impossible !!! Responding to this:

ditch with lanky pieces of wood, and spread a carpet on top of it all to camouflage it. He placed a wooden chair over it

So, that trap had to be very small! Or putting a chair in the middle would be difficult if it was a large trap !!!! She is know to be of small stature and therefore it would be impossible for her to fall through if the planks were strong enough in the initial stages of setting the trap BY adult males of their time!

6. The result of the trap is also impossible!!!! :

Her bones would not be broken but rather knife marks would have left evidence of the crime! Hence, she would have been impaled.

I question the validity of the whole source based on scientific grounds and historical reliance!

injuring herself from head to toe, and breaking a lot of bones.

7. By the way, please post the Khutbah in dispute !:

The only reason that Mauweyah performed this heinous act was that Ayesha stopped him from making fun of Islam from the pulpit of Masjid-e-Nabvi.

I would like to see a transcript ! OR show evidence that Aisha(raa) meet him because of this.

Hasan

faqir
15-03-05, 12:07 AM
Your references are weak sources!




That is the understatement of the year. The Rafidi **** rely on nothing other than fabrications and weak ahadith. Seriously, look at the references he has posted. Jokers.

Hasan2004
15-03-05, 12:20 AM
I am still waiting for a response! If these are the reasons for the rafidi belief expect many changes in the Muslim world.

because many weak references could be refuted !!!

Thanks Faqir.

Crono
15-03-05, 01:19 AM
OH MY LORD...

BIG DEAL..she was 6 at amrrige... AND...big $^$%& whoope..you got a problem with it?..go die and compline to the one that made you

i amd tried of hearing this IGNORANT arguement...she was 6..9...hell i don't care if she was 1 when she was married..who cares

it's western ideology that made it worng to marry at a young age\

why the heck do you think woman are capable of haveing chidlren at that age?...what? is it for looks?...for fun?..NO..it's for ahveing chidlren...it's not a hard concept to grasp..purperty is a system that enables you to have children..end of story..so when you hit purberty..you can have chidlren, and there is NOTHING worng with what Allah has created..end of story

anyone who says this natral occurnce of yougn age marrige is worng in any way...whoooo0o0o....yallah i will bann thee form my computer for ever, (ie: ignore)

when people tell me she married at a young age..i say to them ..."and?...that is a completely normal thing..EVEN TODAY..so please, get voer it"

next thing you know..there will be a big 400 page tyhrerd/essay on why we use water for wudu instead of wine.....i tell you..the stupidity people come up with

Hasan2004
15-03-05, 02:43 AM
salmank2,

These are the references you posted!!!:

References

* Musharriful Mahbubin by Hazrat Khuwaja Mehboob Qasim Chishti Mushrrafi Qadri (RA) Pages 216-218
* Kokab wa Rifi Fazal-e-Ali Karam Allah Wajhu, Page 484, By Syed Mohammed Subh-e-Kashaf AlTirmidhi, Urdu translation by Syed Sharif Hussein Sherwani Sabzawari, Published by Aloom AlMuhammed, number B12 Shadbagh, Lahore, 1st January 1963.
* Habib Alseer Rabiyah AlAbrar, Volume 1, Alama JarulAllah Zamik (530 Hijri),
* Hadoiqa Sanai, by Hakim Sanai (Died 525 Hijri, at Ghazni), Page 65-67,
* Namoos Islam, by Agha Hashim Sialkoti, Published Lahore, 1939 - Pages 66-67
* Tazkarah Tul-Aikram Tarikh-e-Khulafa Arab-Wa-Islam by Syed Shah Mohamed Kabir Abu Alalaiyi Dana Puri, Published Le Kishwar Press, Lakhnow, April 1924/ 1346 H

Again, these are weak sources! or either they are using a weak hadith for evidence.

By the way, Ibn Kathir contain weak evidences also but he usually states that they are weak and fabricated hadiths. Usually authors are just elaborating a point and then adopt the AUTHENTIC information as a final decision !

Nahjul-Balagha states:


SERMON 38

About naming of doubt as such and disparagement of those in doubt

Doubt is named doubt because it resembles truth. As for lovers of Allah, their conviction serves them as light and the direction of the right path (itself) serves as their guide; while the enemies of Allah, in time of doubt call to misguidance in the darkness of doubt and their guide is blindness (of intelligence). One who fears death cannot escape it nor can one who fears for eternal life secure it.

In the collection of his letters:

31. There are four causes of infidelity and loss of belief in Allah: hankering after whims, a passion to dispute every argument, deviation from truth; and dissension, because whoever hankers after whims does not incline towards truth; whoever keeps on disputing every argument on account of his ignorance, will always remain blind to truth, whoever deviates from truth because of ignorance, will always take good for evil and evil for good and he will always remain intoxicated with misguidance. And whoever makes a breach (with Allah and His Messenger) his path becomes difficult, his affairs will become complicated and his way to salvation will be uncertain.

Similarly, doubt has also four aspects absurd reason- ing; fear; vacillation and hesitation; and unreasonable surrender to infidelity, because one who has accustomed himself to unreasonable and absurd discussions will never see the Light of Truth and will always live in the darkness of ignorance. One who is afraid to face facts (of life, death and the life after death) will always turn away from ultimate reality, one who allows doubts and uncertainties to vacillate him will always be under the control of Satan and one who surrenders himself to infidelity accepts damnation in both the worlds.

Now, for something miraculously strange for you:


Sunan Abu Dawud

Book 32, Number 4119:

Narrated Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib:

Khalid said: Al-Miqdam ibn Ma'dikarib and a man of Banu Asad from the people of Qinnisrin went to Mu'awiyah ibn AbuSufyan.

Mu'awiyah said to al-Miqdam: Do you know that al-Hasan ibn Ali has died? Al-Miqdam recited the Qur'anic verse "We belong to Allah and to Him we shall return."

A man asked him: Do you think it a calamity? He replied: Why should I not consider it a calamity when it is a fact that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to take him on his lap, saying: This belongs to me and Husayn belongs to Ali?

The man of Banu Asad said: (He was) a live coal which Allah has extinguished. Al-Miqdam said: Today I shall continue to make you angry and make you hear what you dislike. He then said: Mu'awiyah, if I speak the truth, declare me true, and if I tell a lie, declare me false.

He said: Do so. He said: I adjure you by Allah, did you hear the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) forbidding use to wear gold?

He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) prohibited the wearing of silk?

He replied: Yes. He said: I adjure you by Allah, do you know that the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) prohibited the wearing of the skins of beasts of prey and riding on them?

He said: Yes. He said: I swear by Allah, I saw all this in your house, O Mu'awiyah.

Mu'awiyah said: I know that I cannot be saved from you, O Miqdam.

Khalid said: Mu'awiyah then ordered to give him what he did not order to give to his two companions, and gave a stipend of two hundred (dirhams) to his son. Al-Miqdam then divided it among his companions, and the man of Banu Asad did not give anything to anyone from the property he received. When Mu'awiyah was informed about it, he said: Al-Miqdam is a generous man; he has an open hand (for generosity). The man of Banu Asad withholds his things in a good manner.

Hasan

Aftab
15-03-05, 05:58 AM
If some in the Muslim Ummah are embarrassed by historical facts, it is not going to change reality. It is recorded without a doubt that Aisha was nine when she married the Prophet and that remains a fact of life whether you like it or not.

Many a prophet in the history of mankind had young girls in either a wedlock or in concubinage. David and Solomon are some examples. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his descendents, did nothing extraordinary which other prophets before him had not done with regard to marrying a nine year old!

The West might view that with a self righteous hypocritical political correctness according to its own warped understanding of morality. But then, that is the West's problem.

Aisha was nine and that remains a fact as such. No measure of reshuffling the ahadith and twisting the facts will change the reality. Islam allows it. End of story.

Can you please show proof that other prophets took wives as young as nine? When did David and Solomon do this???

Hasan2004
15-03-05, 08:16 AM
Info from an earlier post:

"Aishah became the Prophet's wife in Makkah when she was most likely in the tenth year of her life but her wedding did not take place until the second year after the Hijrah when she was about fourteen or fifteen years old. Before and after her wedding she maintained a natural jollity and innocence and did not seem at all overawed by the thought of being wedded to him who was the Messenger of God whom all his companions, including her own mother and father, treated with such love and reverence as they gave to no one else."

Biblical evidence:

RUTH Chapter 4:

12 and let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the LORD shall give thee of this young woman.
13 ¶ So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 And the women said unto Na-o'mi, Blessed be the LORD, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter-in-law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath borne him.
16 And Na-o'mi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.

DEUTERONOMY Chapter 28:

56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,

EVEN IN THOSE TIMES THEY MARRIED VERY YOUNG !!!

Hasan

ponderingstar
15-03-05, 03:50 PM
i don't see why there is an obsession with the age of Ayesha when the marriage was consumated. All is form Allah and hence it is halal. We know the prophets exemplary character and silly threads which go on and on about the age are just futile. I know i would have quite happily been married at the age of 12 and know of cousins who were much younger when they wanted to get married and were also able to have children from the age of 9. which meant that they looked shockingly mature at such a young age and looked like developed women. they would have easily passed for 14 or 15. some races seem genetically prone to this. so many mexican girls i met in LA were very "formed" for their young ages.:embar:

The fact of the matter is that the west is obsessed with age and sex. Although they are free to suggest sex for what they see as "underage" britney spears is one example as are other young girls who are dressed up for the pleasure of men.

If a girl is able to have children at the age of 9 (and yes it is rare but it happens more often than people think) then she also has all the hormones etc which would give her the desires of a woman. If nature allows such a young girl to be willing and able to have sex then it is man made laws that prevent such a thing. Laws which were obviously not in place at the time of the prophet. Laws which did not apply to countries all over the world and hence there were peopel of ALL creeds and colours and cultures who were marrying girls of ages which in our days seem unacceptable.

That all being said ofcourse we want to protect our children from such things in the world we live in. we must accept times were different and there were no such obsessions in regards to the coming of age. Puberty indicated when a child was adult not a law which changes country to country and state to state. Also womans roles have changed in the world in part due to Islam.

Why it is deemed unacceptable for soem girls to not have sex till the age of 18 in some states? What makes 16 or 18 the age where overnight it becomes acceptable? These are all strange things. We liketo keep our children innocet and we like to protect them. we like to extend youth and childhood as far as possible. There are men who act like boys way into their 30s and boys who learn to be men at strikingly young ages.

Allah knows best and we have faith in that. if any non muslim woudl like to discuss these issues with me without being hysterical and without scandal mongering i will be happy to asist. however i think the converstaion has very little relevence otherwise.

was salaam

Chained_Water
15-03-05, 04:57 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum salmanz,

Listen and listen well.

I have already told you in private not to repost things that have been deleted.
I have already told you in private why you were banned.

Now I am warning you again. Any more of that and you will be banned again and next time I won't let you come back, I'll just keep banning you.

If you want to insult dead Muslims or ones who are alive, go somewhere else, you are not welcome here.

You're on a warning, it's your last one.

Wa alaikum as salaam,
CW

Rizi_Wizi
15-03-05, 06:41 PM
Aishah bint Abi Bakr
The life of Aishah is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. ....and as she instructed, was buried in the Jannat al-Baqi in the City of Light, beside other companions of the Prophet.


MashaAllah, this has been the best post on this topic. It should be made compulsory reading.

Debater
15-03-05, 08:14 PM
..After Khadijah al-Kubra (the Great) and Fatimah az-Zahra (the Resplendent), Aishah as-Siddiqah (the one who affirms the Truth) is regarded as the best woman in Islam..Who provided you with this RATING SYSTEM?

Koleni or Khomeni?

Ummul Momineen Saiyidah 'Aisha Siddeeqa radhiyAllahu 'anha are the Mother of Believers according to Quran. Hadhrat Fatimah radhiyAllahu 'anha is not the Mother of Believers.

Ummul Momineen are the only personality after Hadhrat Maryum (mother of Hadhrat Eesa alayhis salam) whom ALLAH the Almighty has DEFENDED in His Book Himself when Munafiqeen forged a blame on them.

Allah the Almighty has addressed the Wives of Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam as Ahl-al-Bayt in His Book but He hasn't ever mentioned Hadhrat Fatimah radhiyAllahu 'anha in the Quran.

Allah gives twice the reward on any good deed to the Wives of Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam as is said in Quran. There is no promise given to Hadhrat Fatimah (or other daughters of Prophet s.a.w).

And according to Sahih Bukhari it is only Ummul Momineen Saiyidah 'Aishah in whose bed Allah revealed Quran to Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam.

It is Ummul Momineen who followed the Messenger of Allah, when Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam called all Muslims to give bai'ah (Bai'ah of Ridhwan) over the alleged murder of Ameerul Momineen Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu.

So Ummul Momineen followed Quran and the way of Prophet sallAllahu alayhe wasallam and demanded for the Qisas of Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu. If Ummul Momineen didn't rise to stop the Fitnah of Shi'ahs who hijacked Hadhrat Ali, and if on the way of Ummul Momineen, Hadhrat Ameer Muawiyah didn't restrict Shia-Munafiqeen, there would be a very ruined picture of Islam left as in Iran of today.

So stop acting like a shia, and stop making Hadhrat Fatimah or Hadhrat Ali superior to Ummul Momineen against Quran. If you go against the Quran, you will only follow Shaytaan.

sipahesahaba
15-03-05, 08:18 PM
exactly debater. fatima and ali should be cursed. the prophet hated them. and we should all pray for the deaths of all shia

Chained_Water
15-03-05, 08:22 PM
You are banned.

We don't want sick individuals like you on this forum.

May Allah(swt) cure you of your disease and guide you.


exactly debater. fatima and ali should be cursed. the prophet hated them. and we should all pray for the deaths of all shia

Crono
15-03-05, 08:23 PM
Under the legal and moral code of the society in which I live, a 50+ year old man who has sexual relations with a child the age of nine has committed Rape as well as pedophilia and possibly Incest.



-Moral code, i am asumeing you live in the west, where woman is nothigjn but an advertisement tool, and were faggots can live freely...yes, you live in a very moral place.

Incest...you obviosuly don't knwo what incest is...incest is the act of haveing intercourse with your own chidlren, aisha was not muhammads child.

You cannot rape the willing.

Pedofillia didn't exist then, it was broguth abotu when so caled democray slapped an age limit on when people can have sex....as if domacray controls the world, much less the place it governs..where msot child births and abortions are udner teh age of 18, so really, the 18 rule is jsut a line..and no one follows it really...in your 'moral' scoiety there...

cwolf_x
20-03-05, 02:53 PM
Salam

Read these two eye-opening articles without any gobbledegook.

Islaamic Rule About Attaining Puberty! (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/puberty.htm)
and
Was Aisha عائشه رضی الله عنها a child bride? (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/aisha.htm)

Confused_Muslim
13-08-05, 02:14 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain this to me please.



If Islam is for all times, then surely Allah knows that at some point in life and in many parts of the world this whole saga would be a sore point?

Would it just not have been better if it did not occur?

And I know for a fact many Arabs (as well as others - especially in poor countries) use this to in essence abuse children.



So someone explain this to me please, cos it makes no sense to my little old brain.

abdusamad
13-08-05, 02:21 AM
First of All she did not move in with the beloved prophet till at the age of 9 or later.


so marriage at 6 holds no importance... and she was consulted of such decision. Islam is strict on forced marriage. actually there is no legal ground for forced marriage therefore they do not hold any meaning, and some scholars go as far as accusing the husband of rape if it reaches to the such case he has sexual intercourse without the consent of the wife, or without her accord.


It is best to seek further knowledge in this area, as you can see it is widely opinionated. There are alot of quranic and hadeeth evidence regarding Fiqh of Nikkah (marriage) Google it.

Confused_Muslim
13-08-05, 02:23 AM
so 9 then...

9 is still a child. no offence but ermm.. come on think...

I have a daughter who is about that age, and I cant imagine for the life of me her being even engaged to someone let alone marriage and then remember consumation.
AT THAT AGE?
thats when a child should enjoy being just that... a child...

abdusamad
13-08-05, 02:25 AM
Only Allah knows if consumation took place at such age, come on we can not go wildly assume of such act.

astughfrullah!

Confused_Muslim
13-08-05, 02:31 AM
From hadith it can b taken that it was consumated at 9.
So either way, why at that age?

would it not have been better for that eposode to not occur at all?

My point is not to argue the exact age "IT - the act" took place, but to have this done to a child is wrong... PERIOD.

I think the only way I can explain this is to say imagine if it were your daughter.

abdusamad
13-08-05, 02:33 AM
We have to accept and not be ignorant on some things. Such as we consider an 18 year old to be an adult. While in older days it was a 15 year old whom would be considered an adult. As soon as one reaches puberty one can have a child and one is a man/woman.


The hadeeth does not state if any consumation took place, so dont missinterpret it.

Confused_Muslim
13-08-05, 02:40 AM
cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064))

abdusamad
13-08-05, 02:45 AM
ok thank you.


ok you were right.


it would of been helpfull to have done it early but thank you very much.

Al-Irhaab
13-08-05, 03:33 AM
go to so called third world countries and you will see 9 to 11 year olds who are much more mature then all of us in this room put together and look after whole families and have kids at these ages. just because you judge everything by western standards doesnt make you right, look in uk you have girls 11 yrs old having sex because they enjoy it and they are women in the sense of physical maturity. In the harsh climates of any countries women and men mature a lot earliar.

Proud_2B_Muslim
13-08-05, 04:46 AM
I believe the following article will, Insha'Allah, answer some of your questions:

http://www.islamic-paths.org/Home/English/Muhammad/Other/Marriage_Aishah.htm

It is a bit lengthy, but Alhamdulillah, it does an excellent job of explaining the marriage of the Prophet :saw: to Hazrat 'Aisha (ra).

Historically, people used to marry at very, very early ages; it was the norm to do so. No one would raise an eyebrow at such marriages. And also, they didn't live as long as people do now.

In fact, there are still "primitive" cultures that practice early marriage.

Anyways, all this information and a lot more is included in the article.

I do hope you will take the time to read it, Insha'Allah.

MrBlowtatoes
13-08-05, 05:11 AM
I didn't know you considered the Whole of south asia and russia, and africa as a whole..to be 'primitive cultures' but ok...

Apparently if it isn't in favor of the west, it's primitive.






Anyways, it's the west that says yougn marriges are wrong, not Reality, in the REAL world, a woman reaches sexual matruity as soon as she starts her menses, they happen every month for a REASON, not jsut for the heck of it.

i tell you what the west and it's mdoernisst/apolgists have really screwed up the midns of alot of people.

The Prophet sallalalhu alayhi wa salaam married her at age 6...and if you come bakc ehre and say that what the Prophet did was worng, the the Propeht of mankind was worng, aozobilah i am sorry to say..but Belittleing abd BELIEING the religion takes you outside the fold of islam.

so, please, what what you say and what you believe, if you have a beleif that any part of this religion is incorrect..you are NOT a muslim.

Muhamamd married at age 6, and he gave his example to mankind to follow, it is command in Quran to follow his example.

Proud_2B_Muslim
13-08-05, 05:35 AM
I didn't know you considered the Whole of south asia and russia, and africa as a whole..to be 'primitive cultures' but ok...

Apparently if it isn't in favor of the west, it's primitive.


Brother, I put quotes around the word--"primitive"--because I was implying that is primitive according to Western standards. It is certainly not because I think such a thing.

I hope that clarifies it.

Siddiqa
13-08-05, 08:00 AM
Did anyone look into the authenticity of the Hadeethin question!?

From my limited knowledge... all statements that mention the age of Aishah (ra) are mentioned in Hadeeth not Qur'an. And there is room for error in Ahadeeth.

I recently "discovered" the inauthenticity of the hadeeth on the 72 virgins that a martyr shall be with. I forget which category it falls in... but I think that is of less importance, if a hadeeth is being questioned. Prior to this, I also "discovered" that the hadeeth that mentions a woman's awrah being everything except her hands and face is inauthentic... mursal to be more specific. Yet, these ahadeeth are used!?!? *appalled*

Perhaps, someone can clarify the authenticity of the hadeeth and the discussion can work from there.

Haji
13-08-05, 08:14 AM
Why such a young age though?

seven
13-08-05, 09:07 AM
cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064))
Aisha [ra] said that between the time she was betrothed and her nikah to the Prophet [pbuh], Allah had put so much barakah (blessings) in her life that she was a fully developed woman by the time of her nikah.

DUALEH
13-08-05, 09:51 AM
Asalamu alykum

I just want to make one point. If you look at how many hadiths aisha (ra) narrated then you will understand just abit of the wisdom behind it. Secondly this was one of the wives of the prophet(saw) that Allah asked him to marry. So that should be enough to stop there. Also anwar awlaki did a talk on this i will post the link if i can.

edit: here is the link http://www.jimas.org/awlaki.htm
walykum salam

MrBlowtatoes
13-08-05, 02:43 PM
inauthenticty of the ahdith?..look at the people you quote from: Whahab, Tammiyahh, bin baaz, uthmayin...i wouldnt be suprrised if every hadith was taken out of context and inauthentic

you see, thsoe men claime that bidah is harram because of the hadith

The Prophet saws said: Every innovation is a misguidence" Sahih, Al-Trimidiyyah

they take this hadith out of context, how do i know this?..becasue...

The Propeht saws said" Eveery innovation of guidence is rewardable, not lessing the reward of thsoe that practice it, and every innovation of misguidence is sinful, not reduceing the sin of thsoe that follow" Narrated by Al-Muslim and classified as sahih.

this is jsut one instance where your 'scholars' have taken things out of context

Free-Bird
13-08-05, 05:18 PM
cAishah, may God be pleased with her, narrated that the Prophet(P) was betrothed (zawaj) to her when she was six years old and he consummated (nikah) his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years. (Sahîh al-Bukhârî, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.064))This thread started in 2003, amazing, and you muslims don't see this? No wonder we are stuffed. But the good thing is I don't rely on anyone in doing anything, just do or die.

Anyway I copy and pasted below writing from an atheist site dated may 2005.
I removed the unnecessary part, if you are not happy with it you have to verify it yourselves from the sources and we can restart again from there.
------------------------------------------------------------

The beginning of Muhammad's prophethood is known as "The Call",
it consist of two periods:
The Meccan period was 13 years and
The Medinah period was 10 years.

The Qur'an also known is revealed in both periods, therefore there are:
Qur'an of meccan period and medina period.

The migration from Mecca to Medina is known as "Hijrah".
A.H means after Hijrah.

Muhammad was married before The Call and she died at the 7th year of Mecca period.

The well-known historian Ibn Jareer al-Tabari writes at page 50 of volume 4 of his 'Book of History':
"Abu Bakr married 2 ladies in The pre-Call era.
Fateelah was the first, from whom he had 2 children:
Abdullah and Asma.

Umm-i-Rooman was the second, from whom he also had 2 children:
Abdur Rahman and Aishah.

All the 4 children of Abu Bakr were born in The pre-Call era from the above-named 2 ladies."

1.
Abdur Rahman fought against the Muslims in the battle of Badr (year 2 A.H). His age at that time was 21-22 years,

2.
Abu Bakr planned on migrating to Habshah 8 years before Hijrah, he went to
Mut`am -- with whose son Ayesha was engaged -- and asked him to take
Ayesha in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr
had embraced Islam. And subsequently his son divorced Ayesha.

3.
When Abu Bakr was approached on the behalf of the Prophet, he replied
that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair, and that he would have
to settle the matter first with him.

4.
According to narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha is reported to have
said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Quran, was revealed, "I was a young girl" she said.
The 54th surah of the Quran was revealed 9 years before Hijrah.

5.
Aishah was a widow for 40 years since his death until she passed away.

6.
Asma died in 73 after Hijrah at the age of 100 years, she was 10 years older than her sister Aishah.

7.
It is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (RA) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicate that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battle fields to help them, not to be a burden on them.

8.
When the Prophet died Aisha had written over than 2,000 hadith, a 2nd largest.

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 06:05 PM
go to so called third world countries and you will see 9 to 11 year olds who are much more mature then all of us in this room put together and look after whole families and have kids at these ages. just because you judge everything by western standards doesnt make you right, look in uk you have girls 11 yrs old having sex because they enjoy it and they are women in the sense of physical maturity. In the harsh climates of any countries women and men mature a lot earliar.


Salaam,

Seldom do I come across utter rubbish that makes me feel like vomitting. I did just that when I read your uninformed post. Have you ever been to a third world country? I WILL PAY YOU TO GO TO FAISLABAD, PAKISTAN AND COMPARE THE GROWTH OF A 9 YEAR OLD GIRL THERE WITH ONE FROM A GIRL FROM ANY WESTERN COUNTRY. Girls are malnourished, ill educated and do not miraculously morphe into women ready for consensual marriage at 9,10,11 or 12.

Futhermore, what super vitamins were about in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago that would make girls mature into women so quickly? The area was ridden with hunger, disease and the desert is hardly arable farming land.

I understand your need to defend the actions of the Prophet, but please try and put forward a more credible defence. Not only do you do the Prophet (PBUH) a disservice but make yourself sound like a fool. You are meant to be the senior member here.l

*muslim*
13-08-05, 07:51 PM
I could not read all of articles but think it is aboust the marriage of Asiha.

please the fellow points:


a- before Ashia got engaged to prophet muhmad , she was engaged to one of her relative .then they enterd islam her family fiance force that man broke engagement with her in oreder to put pressure on her father to leave islam .


b-I was born in this area where islam start .today is 13/08/2005 , in 1912 one of my uncles get married to my ant when she was 11years old that happend 90years old which was not forbiddent and accepted in community, what about before 1400years .




3-who attack islam by using this issue , he has got nothing to crtisis this religion .



4-what make me laugh when some one comes and compare between two thing which are totlly differnt and give opinion through his experience . if i live in this period of time and saying how these people could live without tv or having cinema or football before 1400years and that sound stupid .

*muslim*
13-08-05, 08:02 PM
Salaam,



Futhermore, what super vitamins were about in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago that would make girls mature into women so quickly? The area was ridden with hunger, disease and the desert is hardly arable farming land.

I understand your need to defend the actions of the Prophet, but please try and put forward a more credible defence. Not only do you do the Prophet (PBUH) a disservice but make yourself sound like a fool. You are meant to be the senior member here.l


WHAT are you saying is rubbish , 1400years ago islam spread around world 1n 30 years from iraq to egypt to nroth afriaca.

you froget , we are first peopel in earth who set up first hospital in earth .first doctor in islam was women in that time


you have poor inforamtion about life arab in desert , you do not know women who lives there .




stop using different standard to judge other people you dont know them have you been in desert , these girls who carried fellower of prophet muhmad .

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 08:05 PM
I could not read all of articles but think it is aboust the marriage of Asiha.

please the fellow points:


a- before Ashia got engaged to prophet muhmad , she was engaged to one of her relative .then they eneterd islam her family fiency , that man broke engagement with her in oreder to put pressure on her father to leave islam .


b-I was born in this area where islam start .today is 13/08/2005 , in 1912 one of my uncles get married to my ant when she was 11years old that happend 90years old which was not forbiddent and accepted in community, what about before 1400years .




3-who attack islam by using this issue , he has got nothing to crtisis this religion .



4-what make me laugh when some one comes and compare between two thing which are totlly differnt and give opinion through his experience . if i live in this period of time and saying how these people could live without tv or having cinema before 1400years and, that is stupid .







4-


a)Could you atleast cite a source for you theory that Aisha (ra) was engaged to someone else. I am inclined not to consider any tinpot theory that carries no source. Pray tell, what does her having a broken engagement got to do with the age at which she married the Prophet (PBUH).

b)Just because something is not forbidden, does not make it right. Are your family still practicing marrying 11 year olds? if so, are they more mature now for marriage than 90 years ago.

c)This is a discussion, I have not come across a post critcising Islam. Please do not try and stifle debate, because you find the topic a bit uncomfortable.


d) What makes me NOT laugh is the fact muslims are marrying off girls as young as 11 today! Surely, it is incumbent on all muslims to seek out clarification on this thorny subject and put an end to this topic and weed out this practice. If you want to laugh then don't bother logging on to a discussion forum.

Shaolin's-Finest
13-08-05, 08:15 PM
Salaam,

Seldom do I come across utter rubbish that makes me feel like vomitting. I did just that when I read your uninformed post. Have you ever been to a third world country? I WILL PAY YOU TO GO TO FAISLABAD, PAKISTAN AND COMPARE THE GROWTH OF A 9 YEAR OLD GIRL THERE WITH ONE FROM A GIRL FROM ANY WESTERN COUNTRY. Girls are malnourished, ill educated and do not miraculously morphe into women ready for consensual marriage at 9,10,11 or 12.

Futhermore, what super vitamins were about in Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago that would make girls mature into women so quickly? The area was ridden with hunger, disease and the desert is hardly arable farming land.

I understand your need to defend the actions of the Prophet, but please try and put forward a more credible defence. Not only do you do the Prophet (PBUH) a disservice but make yourself sound like a fool. You are meant to be the senior member here.lPeace Slamdunk,

here you go:

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/aisha.htm

Shaolin's-Finest
13-08-05, 08:18 PM
a)Could you atleast cite a source for you theory that Aisha (ra) was engaged to someone else. I am inclined not to consider any tinpot theory that carries no source. Pray tell, what does her having a broken engagement got to do with the age at which she married the Prophet (PBUH).

b)Just because something is not forbidden, does not make it right. Are your family still practicing marrying 11 year olds? if so, are they more mature now for marriage than 90 years ago.

c)This is a discussion, I have not come across a post critcising Islam. Please do not try and stifle debate, because you find the topic a bit uncomfortable.


d) What makes me NOT laugh is the fact muslims are marrying off girls as young as 11 today! Surely, it is incumbent on all muslims to seek out clarification on this thorny subject and put an end to this topic and weed out this practice. If you want to laugh then don't bother logging on to a discussion forum.Slamduck,

What you fail to realise is that this marriage took place of 1400 years ago. Hence, there is an obvious difference between the norms of now, and the norms of back then, not to forget obvious 'cultural' differences.

*muslim*
13-08-05, 08:25 PM
a)Could you atleast cite a source for you theory that Aisha (ra) was engaged to someone else. I am inclined not to consider any tinpot theory that carries no source. Pray tell, what does her having a broken engagement got to do with the age at which she married the Prophet (PBUH).

.

If i got you source , it will change your opinion or rethink again .




b)Just because something is not forbidden, does not make it right. Are your family still practicing marrying 11 year olds? if so, are they more mature now for marriage than 90 years ago.

c)This is a discussion, I have not come across a post critcising Islam. Please do not try and stifle debate, because you find the topic a bit uncomfortable.


d) What makes me NOT laugh is the fact muslims are marrying off girls as young as 11 today! Surely, it is incumbent on all muslims to seek out clarification on this thorny subject and put an end to this topic and weed out this practice. If you want to laugh then don't bother logging on to a discussion forum.


What is not right , you dont have right to forbid something becasue you live in west , they are differnt standard the way life in west and east or who live close to sea and desert .in that time there was not keen to send girls to school even boys we did not have school , but now the priority is differnt , boys and girls have to learn in school and uni to have better socity .

for your information this marrige take place now in some area , i dont support because they have to pass school and uni then they get married .


you can not understand , the priority.in any community or period of time change from time to time .


please usae your brain to think about this point






c)This is a discussion, I have not come across a post critcising Islam. Please do not try and stifle debate, because you find the topic a bit uncomfortable.


d) What makes me NOT laugh is the fact muslims are marrying off girls as young as 11 today! Surely, it is incumbent on all muslims to seek out clarification on this thorny subject and put an end to this topic and weed out this practice. If you want to laugh then don't bother logging on to a discussion forum.



I am still laughing about the way you think , i would not be suprised , if you say how these peopel could live with out CARS .


WE do not support any one who marry his daughter or son in this age becaseu they have to syudy , if it happens in rare cases that doesnt give you right to campare with prophet muhmad marriage they are different .

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 08:41 PM
Peace Slamdunk,

here you go:

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/aisha.htm



Peace Shaolins-dumbest,

A lovely, verbose and colourful site, the author uses lovely colours and can render phrases in arabic. Yet, he FAILS to prove that girls of 9 years of age matured into women faster than young girls in todays age. What did they eat that bought on this change, what happened after their first menses. How common was it for girl to start menustrating at 9 1400 years ago.

Any man who writes this "Yes, I would marry my nine years old daughter provided she is pubertal, and provided she accepts the 50/55 years old " probaly isn't fit to be father. How on earth is a 9 year old (someone girl watching cartoons) going to fully appreciate the gravity of marriage.

Try again.

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 08:46 PM
Slamduck,

What you fail to realise is that this marriage took place of 1400 years ago. Hence, there is an obvious difference between the norms of now, and the norms of back then, not to forget obvious 'cultural' differences.

Shaolins-dumbest,

Yes, I realise the marriage took place 1400 years ago. What you fail to realise is that marriages of this nature are being conducted today, where the miscreants are using the Prophets (PBUH) example. Now, do you as a muslim want to stop this practice and the slur it brings on the religon or do you just want to sit their and tell people it was a practice that happened 1400 years ago. What's your motiviation?

*muslim* admitted it happened in his family three generations ago - do you seriously think its not happening now.

Do you know any 9 year olds.

*muslim*
13-08-05, 08:50 PM
Peace Shaolins-dumbest,

A lovely, verbose and colourful site, the author uses lovely colours and can render phrases in arabic. Yet, he FAILS to prove that girls of 9 years of age matured into women faster than young girls in todays age. What did they eat that bought on this change, what happened after their first menses. How common was it for girl to start menustrating at 9 1400 years ago.

Any man who writes this "Yes, I would marry my nine years old daughter provided she is pubertal, and provided she accepts the 50/55 years old " probaly isn't fit to be father. How on earth is a 9 year old (someone girl watching cartoons) going to fully
appreciate the gravity of marriage.

Try again.






do you think a boy who is around 16 years old can lead army to go to fight other people .





is that sound good?



you will say no , he is teenager and can not do this job , he has to paly and have fun .



yes i agree with you if that happen now











but 1400 years ago , young man (16years old) led army his name is asuma abn ziad , try to underdatn and move away from sex issue where you are trying to make how was prophet muhmad .









please






go and have cup of tea , the life change from time to time , girls start having period in hot ared when they are betwwen 8 to 11 but in cold area are 12 to 15 . they start cating as proper women early in my area ,But now


we need to teach our kids to know where is right and wrong to ahve better future



in the past , there was war , big families who need more supprt from other fmaily , making relationship to have more kids that was imprtnat thing in the past . big family to lookafter lands and protect from other fmaily not attack them




you have made my day when i found people think in this way

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 08:54 PM
If i got you source , it will change your opinion or rethink again .





What is not right , you dont have right to forbid something becasue you live in west , they are differnt standard the way life in west and east or who live close to sea and desert .in that time there was not keen to send girls to school even boys we did not have school , but now the priority is differnt , boys and girls have to learn in school and uni to have better socity .

for your information this marrige take place now in some area , i dont support because they have to pass school and uni then they get married .


you can not understand , the priority.in any community or period of time change from time to time .


please usae your brain to think about this point







I am still laughing about the way you think , i would not be suprised , if you say how these peopel could live with out CARS .


WE do not support any one who marry his daughter or son in this age becaseu they have to syudy , if it happens in rare cases that doesnt give you right to campare with prophet muhmad marriage they are different .

What do you mean I do not have the right to forbid because I am in the West. For some reason you Arab-types think you are way better than the rest of the worlds muslims. Doesn't matter where in the world you are sitting, marrying a 9 year old off on the onset of her menses is horrific. And whether you like it or not, its time you faced upto the fact that Islam is tainted by this slur - now its alright for websites and keyboard warriors to say 'ignore it, it was Allahs will (SWT), but the fact remains it is paedophilia. All I keep hearing is that it was a different time, or its a different culture when they practice it today. IT IS NOT RIGHT. You can not marry off 9 year old girls to 55 year old men.

It is no longer enough to tut tut tut at such practices - people like you have to open your mouths and condemn it.

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:02 PM
What do you mean I do not have the right to forbid because I am in the West. For some reason you Arab-types think you are way better than the rest of the worlds muslims. Doesn't matter where in the world you are sitting, marrying a 9 year old off on the onset of her menses is horrific. And whether you like it or not, its time you faced upto the fact that Islam is tainted by this slur - now its alright for websites and keyboard warriors to say 'ignore it, it was Allahs will (SWT), but the fact remains it is paedophilia. All I keep hearing is that it was a different time, or its a different culture when they practice it today. IT IS NOT RIGHT. You can not marry off 9 year old girls to 55 year old men.

It is no longer enough to tut tut tut at such practices - people like you have to open your mouths and condemn it.


If you are not convinced , it does not matter , we are mulsims we are proud of being mulsim , we do love prophet muhmad how much you are saying just rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish .


i dont care about what you think you are blind mind .




may allah help you

son

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 09:03 PM
do you think a boy who is around 16 years old can lead army to go to fight other people .





is that sound good?



you will say no , he is teenager and can not do this job , he has to paly and have fun .



yes i agree with you if that happen now











but 1400 years ago , young man (16years old) led army his name is asuma abn ziad , try to underdatn and move away from sex issue where you are trying to make how was prophet muhmad .









please






go and have cup of tea , the life change from time to time , girls start having period in hot ared when they are betwwen 8 to 11 but in cold area are 12 to 15 . they start cating as proper women early in my area ,But now


we need to teach our kids to know where is right and wrong to ahve better future



in the past , there was war , big families who need more supprt from other fmaily , making relationship to have more kids that was imprtnat thing in the past . big family to lookafter lands and protect from other fmaily not attack them




you have made my day when i found people think in this way

This all stemmed from my original post to some poster who claimed girls in 3rd world countries matured faster. I challenged his knowledge on the topic - next thing I get you and Mr Shaolin-funniest sending me links to websites that offer no substance to back up the fact taht girls physically mature faster in 3rd world countries, where they get married off early. I've read all the justification on the marriage of Aisha (ra).

Now perhaps you should get a cup of coffee and smell whats going on around you. Don't bury your head in the sand and come back to me with some proof to back up your claims. I want hard facts and studies to back up your claim that in TODAYS society girls are having periods at 8 years old.

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 09:08 PM
If you are not convinced , it does not matter , we are mulsims we are proud of being mulsim , we do love prophet muhmad how much you are saying just rubbish rubbish rubbish rubbish .


i dont care about what you think you are blind mind .




may allah help you

son

That's it run off. As soon as it gets a bit tough you start your I love my religon thing. Did I deny you did?

The fact of the matter is that this is sordid practice that has come about from a hadith, and we need to question it's validity.

May Allah forgive your for running away and turning your back on saving Islam's reputation. Sleep well and laugh away.

Shaolin's-Finest
13-08-05, 09:19 PM
Slamduck,


A lovely, verbose and colourful site, the author uses lovely colours and can render phrases in arabic. Yet, he FAILS to prove that girls of 9 years of age matured into women faster than young girls in todays age. What did they eat that bought on this change, what happened after their first menses. How common was it for girl to start menustrating at 9 1400 years ago.

Any man who writes this "Yes, I would marry my nine years old daughter provided she is pubertal, and provided she accepts the 50/55 years old " probaly isn't fit to be father. How on earth is a 9 year old (someone girl watching cartoons) going to fully appreciate the gravity of marriage.

Try again.

Remind me again where I said that girls aged 9 matured quicker back then?

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:20 PM
That's it run off. As soon as it gets a bit tough you start your I love my religon thing. Did I deny you did?

The fact of the matter is that this is sordid practice that has come about from a hadith, and we need to question it's validity.

May Allah forgive your for running away and turning your back on saving Islam's reputation. Sleep well and laugh away.


No
but when you have converistion with stupid one , the only thing you have to do , pray to him . then leave him.


what i found here like that .


good night and sweet dreams .


big boy

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:23 PM
This next thing I get you and Mr Shaolin-funniest sending me links to websites that offer no substance to back up the fact taht girls physically mature faster in 3rd world countries, where they get married off early. I've read all the justification on the marriage of Aisha (ra).

.

You are a aliar . i did not send to you any link or websiet .

Shaolin's-Finest
13-08-05, 09:25 PM
Shaolins-dumbest,

Yes, I realise the marriage took place 1400 years ago. What you fail to realise is that marriages of this nature are being conducted today, where the miscreants are using the Prophets (PBUH) example. Now, do you as a muslim want to stop this practice and the slur it brings on the religon or do you just want to sit their and tell people it was a practice that happened 1400 years ago. What's your motiviation?

*muslim* admitted it happened in his family three generations ago - do you seriously think its not happening now.

Do you know any 9 year olds.Slamduck,

My emphasis was on the marriage of Aisha/Prophet.

Shaolin's-Finest
13-08-05, 09:27 PM
This should be a interesting read:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 09:37 PM
Slamduck,



Remind me again where I said that girls aged 9 matured quicker back then?

You didn't but some other poster did, about girls maturing quicker in 3rd world countries.

You butted in with a website that was ....basically...useless.

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 09:50 PM
WHAT are you saying is rubbish , 1400years ago islam spread around world 1n 30 years from iraq to egypt to nroth afriaca.

you froget , we are first peopel in earth who set up first hospital in earth .first doctor in islam was women in that time


you have poor inforamtion about life arab in desert , you do not know women who lives there .




stop using different standard to judge other people you dont know them have you been in desert , these girls who carried fellower of prophet muhmad .

I thought you were going to sleep or something?
You were the first people to set up a hospital...so what? You had the first female doctor is Islam THEN...how many female heart surgeons do you have now? But we digress.

You were going to post some proof to let me know that girls in todays society reach their first period at 8, in your hot climate...Im waiting..

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:55 PM
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ

Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)! (Al-Kafirun 109:1)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=KORTOBY)]

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:57 PM
لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ

"I worship not that which you worship, (Al-Kafirun 109:2)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=2&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=2&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=2&taf=KORTOBY)]

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:57 PM
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

"Nor will you worship that which I worship. (Al-Kafirun 109:3)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=3&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=3&taf=TABARY) | Qurtub (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=3&taf=KORTOBY)



وَلَاأَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ

"And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. (Al-Kafirun 109:4)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=4&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=4&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=4&taf=KORTOBY)

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:58 PM
وَلَا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

"Nor will you worship that which I worship. (Al-Kafirun 109:5)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=5&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=5&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=5&taf=KORTOBY)]

*muslim*
13-08-05, 09:59 PM
لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

"To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)." (Al-Kafirun 109:6)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=6&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=6&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=6&taf=KORTOBY)]

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 10:26 PM
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ



Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)! (Al-Kafirun 109:1)
[Ibn Katheer (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=KATHEER) | Tabari (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=TABARY) | Qurtubi (http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=tfs&sn=109&vN=1&taf=KORTOBY)]

That better not have been a dig at me for being a Kaffir.

Typical that you can't prove your point, so you resort to insulting other muslims, to deflect the conversation. May Allah (sWt) forgive you.

DUALEH
13-08-05, 10:49 PM
Asalamu alykum

We can argue about this all day and night but the fact stands it happened and whatever the prophet did was what Allah willed. If someone wants to argue with what the prophet did, then i think you have not understood islam. We hear and we obey.

walykum salam

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 11:16 PM
Asalamu alykum

We can argue about this all day and night but the fact stands it happened and whatever the prophet did was what Allah willed. If someone wants to argue with what the prophet did, then i think you have not understood islam. We hear and we obey.

walykum salam


Let's forget what he did for a minute, the key thing is it is still happening in his name TODAY. How do you as a fellow muslim propose to stop this? Don't say girls in hot lands mature into women at 9 years old.

saladin1970
13-08-05, 11:18 PM
salaam.

Ayshe was 9 years old. The vast majority of authentic hadith confirm this. And by vast i mean dozens.

The minimum criteria for consumation was physical maturity (i.e puberty).

Other criteria such as maturity of mind was also required.

All the evidence that state Ayshe was 9, also state that she was mature, and blissfully happy throughout her entire marriage, and spent the rest of her life (after the prophets death) dedicated to relaying his messages and hadiths.

Now some kuffar, use this to attack muslims. Yet, we have the diabolical situation of kuffar (see america law in the 1800) making it legal to have sex with 10 year olds. Not marriage and commitment for life , but just some old mans fun. Even recently the age of consent in the 50's was 12. In fact to see how stupid the kuffar laws are on age of consent, all we need to do is look at the US. In one state 16 is mature and the next state it is 17. So if someone crosses the border they suddenly become mature. Forget whether the girl has reached puberty or not, as long as she is 16, or 14, or whatever age they decide she is game.
Yet in islam we have the wisdom as always.
a) physical maturity has to have been reached
b) mental maturity.

now some kuffar would suggest that how can a 9 year old be mature. This is because they live i a society where they grow up to be children and remain children. Yet we only have to look at history to see that many kings and queens ruled empires at 9.

p.s just in reply to the last post. For 1400 years the kuffar have attacked islam. yet not until the 18th century do we find ANY criticism of the marriage to ayshe because of her age. If this was not the norm then we would have seen criticism. There are biblical accounts of Mary being married to josepth when she was 12. The apologists try to make out she was 14, but the evidence suggest she was 12.

saladin1970
13-08-05, 11:26 PM
p.s just to let you know, i came on this forum through a link from another forum.
the other forum is a delphi forum called indi chatters
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Indiechatters/start

you will find slamdunk on there. This is a few of the things he has to say about islam (p.s his mother and father are muslim, yet he is a murtadd, apostate, well actually he doesn't know anything about islam so , i doubt he ever was).

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Indiechatters/messages?msg=7522.84
<<Those that don't want to be muslim but have a muslim name should change it. Very good idea>>

Oh they are! That'll f*** up your muslim statistics based on name alone.

I'm thinking about changing my surname to Focker - my first name is probably Mohamed. Do you like it?

Slamdunk
13-08-05, 11:35 PM
p.s just to let you know, i came on this forum through a link from another forum.
the other forum is a delphi forum called indi chatters
http://forums.delphiforums.com/Indiechatters/start

you will find slamdunk on there. This is a few of the things he has to say about islam (p.s his mother and father are muslim, yet he is a murtadd, apostate, well actually he doesn't know anything about islam so , i doubt he ever was).

http://forums.delphiforums.com/Indiechatters/messages?msg=7522.84
<<Those that don't want to be muslim but have a muslim name should change it. Very good idea>>

Oh they are! That'll f*** up your muslim statistics based on name alone.


Astagfurullah,

May Allah (SWT) forgive you and spare you a life in hell.

I'm thinking about changing my surname to Focker - my first name is probably Mohamed. Do you like it?

marjan
13-08-05, 11:55 PM
oh dear