marriage validity question

[sajid]

Salams,

Does a Girl has to have a Wali with her present when getting married?


Say 2 people wanna get married the dude and the dudette but dont want thier familes to know

is the marriage valid if you have only the guy and the girl + 2 witnesses?

[AbuMubarak]

marriage without a wali is zinaa

[sajid]

Ok 2 things

say the girl did not have a wali shes all on her own what happens here?

and if the girl had walis but did a marriage on the sly not letting her parents know thats zinaa right?

[AbuMubarak]

if they dont have a wali, for whatever reason, they may as well saying they are boyfriend and girlfriend

its zinaa akhi, no matter how they want to twist it

if she had a wali and did the marriage on the sly, what is that?

think about this sajid, if your daughter got married totally hidden from you, what would YOU call it?

no wali, no nothing, just pops up one day and said she was in love and is married and pregnant

what would YOU call it?

a marrriage?

[faqir]

:salams

There is some difference on this issue amongst the Ulema.

See: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2977

[AbuMubarak]

there you go sajid

even though there is a sahih hadith that states, "There is no marriage without a wali,"

the hanafi madh'hab says you dont need one

and then people wonder why i dont follow a madh'hab

[Salman Al-Farsi]

There is a misunderstanding here regarding the hanafee Madhab holding on the opinion that she does not need wali. What has happend is when the Hanafee Usul was being developed people held on to the opinions of early hanafee jurists such as Imam Mohammed and Abu Yusuf who at the time relied solely on Rai rather than text. However these later became abrogated when the books of Usul were laid down such as al-Mabut of Imam Sarakhasi, which is the most extensive and largest manual of Usul and fiqh ever written.

The Ahadith of women needing a Wali is conclusive. The evidence which supposedly overrides it from the Ayah of the Quran has been resolved by even Hanafi Ulema with the fact that it only applies to divorced women. SO a divorced woman can marry herself off without need of a Wali.

As for a virgin, she absolutely needs permission from a Wali. The ruling goes, if her father disagrees for unislamic reasons, than she must use means to convince him, if extermly unable than she must seek it frmo her paternal grandfather, if he exteremly refuses then her paternal uncle then her brother etc. If none of her natural Mehram Walaa agree than she can go to teh Qadhi or the Khaleefah. Some scholars have conceded that in the absence of the Qadhi and Khaleefatul Muslimeen she can goto a reputeable imaam.

Ruling out that she does not need permission from Wali is highly irresponsible on behalf of any contemporary scholar given the current situation and reality aside from the fact that evidences are conclusive and there is no ambiguity. The Ayah is specifically referring to a woman who has been married before, she then has the authority, even if we accept this to be somehow contradictory than Ikhtilaf only exists on the matter of a widow or divorcee woman NOT a virgin.

[hackira]

do you really get your fatwas here? why don't you people take your questions to scholars who know what they are talking about, and why don't you people stop giving fatwas. quit that "we are sharing knowledge" excuse.
YOU KNOW that your answers are considered fatwas.
YOU KNOW that your knowledge is not enough in order to give a fatwa.
YOU KNOW that you will be responsible infornt of Allah about your fatwas.
FEAR ALLAH and ask the scholars about those who give fatwas while they don't have the proper knowledge. May Allah have mercy on on a person who says i don't know !

[Salman Al-Farsi]

do you really get your fatwas here? why don't you people take your questions to scholars who know what they are talking about, and why don't you people stop giving fatwas. quit that "we are sharing knowledge" excuse.
YOU KNOW that your answers are considered fatwas.
YOU KNOW that your knowledge is not enough in order to give a fatwa.
YOU KNOW that you will be responsible infornt of Allah about your fatwas.
FEAR ALLAH and ask the scholars about those who give fatwas while they don't have the proper knowledge. May Allah have mercy on on a person who says i don't know !

We do not need Fatwas on issues which have been address and resolved by scholars hundreds of years ago and where the text is present.

Fatwas are required on new issues which the scholars of the past have not addressed such as War on Iraq, occupation of Palestine, cloning, prayer whilst travelling on the plane etc.

However I agree, we should refer questions to scholars but the discussion at hand is something every Muslim needs to know by necessity.

[faqir]

www.sunnipath.com (http://www.sunnipath.com)

There are two families that would like their children to get married to each other. However, they'd like to wait 1 year for the nikkah. They're planning to do an engagement (no such thing in Shariah right?) this summer - InshAllah. Now the the bride and groom know each other prior to the families agreement, and would like to speak to one another on the phone. I asked a Shaykh about this situation, he stated in the Hanafi Maddhab the bride can choose her wakeel (implying the groom). Then the groom can go to the local masjid ask the Imam and two witnesses to get them married. Thus the groom is the wakeel for the bride and is also the groom. The Shaykh said this is valid in the Hanafi Madhhab and stated this as an option. He preferred this by stating that as long as both families agree to marry their child to other family and the issue is time (because of wedding plans) than this is an option. My question, the Shafi'i Madhhab has designated the father as the wakeel from my research, thus is there any differences of opinion in the Shafi'i Madhhab that allow the women to choose her own wakeel (the person who marries her of)?


http://www.sunnipath.com/images/bism01.jpg

http://www.sunnipath.com/images/A_Image.jpg

Walaikum assalam,

Just a clarification:

According to the famous relied upon position within the school, the marriage of a woman without the approval of her wali is only valid if the person she is marrying is legally considered a suitable match (kuf'). Otherwise, the marriage is invalid, and they would be considered to be living in zina. This is the position adopted by the overwhelming majority of the Hanafi fuqaha, and was chosen by Ibn Abidin in his Hashiya as well. Shaykh Mahmoud Ashraf Usmani says that this is the generally adopted position of the fuqaha of the Subcontinent, and this is what I heard Shaykh Adib al-Kallas of Damascus say is generally adopted.

Given the danger of this issue, each specific case should be referred to a qualified God-fearing scholar.

It is very important to note that the fuqaha point out, as Shaykh Muhammad Shafi` does in his Imdad al-Mufteen, that even when a woman's marriage without the explicit approval of her wali is *valid*, it is: (a) going against the Sunna and (b) may well entail being bad to one's parents, which is among the most serious of enormities.

The fuqaha explain that the "approval" is not a general "acceptance" to marry but, rather, an approval of the actual marriage contract taking place, because at the legal level, the marriage contract must be seen as a civil contract where the approval of the wali is an expected part.

As for who the guardian (wali) is supposed to be, this is known, and the order of closeness of guardianship must be followed.

As such: In order to do that which is best, the two parties should press their parents to allow them to have the nikah as soon as possible, which adhering to good manners and respect. It must be noted that it is very much possible to be firm and insistent while adhering to good manners, a point lost on many. If the parents are being 'unreasonable' then the reasonable solution is to take the case to a qualified God-fearing scholar.

If such scholars seem few, then we should ask ourselves what we are doing to change this situation.

Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani.

[faqir]

The Ahnaaf considered marriage to be like any other contract / transaction about which the Qur'an mentions the clear requirements in Surah Baqarah ayah 282.





see also , from the link (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2977) I posted above:


Nikah without wali

-- "The Hanafis have ruled that a wali is not an essential part of the nikkah, and hence a nikkah is valid without one, even though there is a sahih hadith that states, "There is no marriage without a wali," along with others which state something similar. Their reasoning is that in the Qur’an, Allah states, "If he has divorced her, then she is not lawful to him until she marries (hatta tankiha) another man" (2: 229). The dhahir, outward meaning of the word hatta tankiha implies that a woman has the authority to contract her own marriage, and since the Qur’an is a qat’i and the hadith is ahad, it is rejected since the speculative cannot override the definite. Furthermore, the Hanafis consider the ‘amm of the Qur’an to be definite and hence binding it is dhahir wording and general application, unless there is a qat’i proof to specify (takhsis) its generality.

In other words, when there was a clash between a qat’i and a dhanni proof, the qat’i takes priority, and in many instances, the dhanni is disregarded. "

This is one Dalil used by the Hanafi Fuqaha regarding this issue. See: Muadin al Haqaiq Sharh Kanz Al Daqaiq (the book is originally by Imam Nasafi) Kitabun Nikah, Bab Al Awliya Wa Al Akfa', pg 294.

[hackira]

even the issues that have been addressed and resolved by scholars may not be and are not necessarily known to all of us and we should still seek scholars to tell us the fatwas of the scholars before them as they know which fatwa applies to which situation. fatwas for new issues are still to be given by scholars rather than by people who read a few books, looked at some websites...etc then started to believe they know something while their knowledge is not even a drop of what's needed in order to give a fatwa. why don't you people make the distance shorter for yourselves and for others and get your fatwas directly from scholars, and save yourself from the consequences of your actions. quit confusing yourselves and confusing people, like i said at least Fear Allah.

We do not need Fatwas on issues which have been address and resolved by scholars hundreds of years ago and where the text is present.

Fatwas are required on new issues which the scholars of the past have not addressed such as War on Iraq, occupation of Palestine, cloning, prayer whilst travelling on the plane etc.

[faqir]

Also from the link above:

1. Malik informed us a man informed us that saeed ibn mussayab said: umar ibn al-khattab said: it is not right for a woman to be married unless with the permission of her guardian, or a member of her family of sound judgement, or the ruler.

Muhammad said (commentating on the above tradition): “there is no marriage without a guardian. If she and the guardian have fallen out, then the ruler is the guardian of anyone who has no guardian. As for abu hanifa, he said: ‘if she places herself in position of equality [in terms of rank, deen, lineage, etc with respect to her husband-to-be] and does not neglect her dowry, then the marriage is permissible’. A part of his argument was the saying of Umar in the hadeeth ‘or a member of her family of sound judgement’ in that this is not a guardian and yet the marriage is permissible; the main point then, is that she does not neglect her dowry. Therefore: if she does that [represents herself] it is permissible.

Taken from Muwatta Imam Muhammad, eng edition, published by Turath publishing pg. 235-236

2. Abu hanifa has stipulated a certain criteria when using ahad hadeeth, which corresponds with that of shafee and imam ahmad, however he has an additional condition e.g. that the narrators actions must not contradict his narration. A hadeeth reported by ayesha in which she said: ‘marriage of a woman is not contracted without the permission of her wali’ however ayesha acted contrary to this when she contracted the nikah of her niece, the daughter of abdur-raham whilst he was absent in Syria.

Taken from Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence, 3rd edition, published by ITS, pg. 99-100. Also refer to imam Ghazali’s mustasfa vol 1

[Salman Al-Farsi]

The danger of this opinion, its certainly not a shari' one, a rather reactionery one, we can see in illigitimate marriages taking place in Muslim countries. These marriages are termed 'civil court marriages' where a man and women run away from home and get a judge from court to marry them off. These illigitimate marriages have been endorced by Govt scholars who have served as judges in courts of civil law in pakistan, I need not mention names.

These are mere opinions only and causing havoc in countries like Pakistan destorying and ruining families and family structures. :(

[Salman Al-Farsi]

[size=2]From the link (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2977) I posted above:

[size=2]

Akhee I have already explained that even if we were to accept the Nakhs, the Ayah of Quran only gives authority to a woman who has been married before, ie a divorcee or widow, so the Ikhtilaaaf only occurs on that and not on the issue of a virgin.

[faqir]

Brother salman, with all due respect, what is your right to tell me what is and is not the position of my Madhab on this issue? Who have you studied Hanafi fiqh with and who have you received ijazas from? I have heard the opinion of the Hanafi madhab from teachers who have studied the madhab in detail. The ruling is derived from the evidence based on the application of the Usul ul fiqh of our Madhab - it is a sound opinion accepted by thousands of fuqaha over hundreds of years. Feel free to expouse your opinion but it is just that - your opinion.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

The issue of Wali (legal guardian) and Wakeel (to whome Wakalah is given) are being confused here.

Wakalah can be given by the Wali to anyone befitting the legal criteria. So for example if I am going away for a certian period, I can give the Wakalah to my brother, trustworthy friend or even to my wife to marry off my daughter to a good suitor. So in this case my friend or brother is not her Wali but Wakil (on my bahalf).

This was the case in the past when communications were limited, nowadays we have mobile phone, emails and other ways of communicating.

[sajid]

hmm not this gets confusing

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Brother salman, with all due respect, what is your right to tell me what is and is not the position of my Madhab on this issue? Who have you studied Hanafi fiqh with and who have you received ijazas from? I have heard the opinion of the Hanafi madhab from teachers who have studied the madhab in detail. The ruling is derived from the evidence based on the application of the Usul ul fiqh of our Madhab - it is a sound opinion accepted by thousands of fuqaha over hundreds of years. Feel free to expouse your opinion but it is just that - your opinion.

JazakAllahu khayrun

Assalam Alaykum

[Salman Al-Farsi]

hmm not this gets confusing

lol saj

Confusion isnt the word, but thats the sad situation of the ummah.. why do you think people are secretly getting married in parks.. its the confusion. :wacko:

[sajid]

lol saj

Confusion isnt the word, but thats the sad situation of the ummah.. why do you think people are secretly getting married in parks.. its the confusion. :wacko:

True Say i guess its more then they want :p

[Salman Al-Farsi]

True Say i guess its more then they want :p

:rotfl:

its the deprivation :rolleyes:

[sajid]

U wud have thought they would know better....but hey nowaday cant trust what u see at face value :( :p

[Salman Al-Farsi]

U wud have thought they would know better....but hey nowaday cant trust what u see at face value :( :p

I have a perfect analogy for this, rather not say here though.. will tell you tomorrow when we meet. :p

[sajid]

I have a perfect analogy for this, rather not say here though.. will tell you tomorrow when we meet. :p
Great stuff look forward to it :)

[Niqaabi]

The responsibility of the Walee (guardian)

Question: What is the responsibility of the walee (guardian) of a young woman towards a man who has come forth to propose to his daughter?

Response: It is obligatory upon the walee to select, for the one to whom he is a guardian over, a suitable pious man whose (practise of the) religion and trustworthiness he is pleased with, as he (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) said:

((When someone with whose religion and character you are satisfied with asks for your daughter in marriage, accede to his request. If you do not do so, there will be temptation on Earth and extensive corruption)), transmitted by Ibn Maajah and at-Tirmidhee, who said the hadeeth is hasan-ghareeb.

So it is obligatory upon the walee to fear Allaah in this regard, and honour the best interests of the one to whom he is a guardian over, and not his own interests; Certainly, he has been entrusted with the responsibility which Allaah has bestowed upon him, and he is not to require of the proposer (to the young woman) that which he is unable, such as requesting mahr above the common practice (rate).

And with Allaah lies all success, and may Allaah send prayers and salutations upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and his noble companions.

The Permanent Committee for Islaamic Research and Fataawa, comprising -
Head: Shaykh 'Abdul 'Azeez Ibn Abdullaah Ibn Baaz;
Member: Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azeez Aal ash-Shaykh;
Member: Shaykh Bakar 'Abdullaah Abu Zayd
Fataawa al-Lajnah ad-Daa.imah lil-Buhooth al-'Ilmiyyah wal-Iftaa. - Volume 18, Page 46-47, Fatwa No.20062, Question 3

[Niqaabi]

If a Girl has no Wali and no other male mahrams to giver her away it is the authority of the community leader to give her away. The Divorce or widowed woman has more say in her marriage then the virgin girl.

My friend (a revert) she got married to her hubby and the imam at her local masjid gave her away :)

[Salman Al-Farsi]

If a Girl has no Wali and no other male mahrams to giver her away it is the authority of the community leader to give her away. The Divorce or widowed woman has more say in her marriage then the virgin girl.

My friend (a revert) she got married to her hubby and the imam at her local masjid gave her away :)

I was once a wali to a revert sister, bless her :)

[Niqaabi]

masha'Allah kool. Did she have to pay for your petrol :p

[Salman Al-Farsi]

masha'Allah kool. Did she have to pay for your petrol :p

:rolleyes:

[mara]

Salams,

Does a Girl has to have a Wali with her present when getting married?


Say 2 people wanna get married the dude and the dudette but dont want thier familes to know

is the marriage valid if you have only the guy and the girl + 2 witnesses?
The dudette should say to her family, and the dude will follow her example. You can't turn back to your own parents after they raised you with love. That would be really sad, if will happen.:embar:

[imran1976]

there you go sajid

even though there is a sahih hadith that states, "There is no marriage without a wali,"

the hanafi madh'hab says you dont need one

and then people wonder why i dont follow a madh'hab

Muatta imam Malik: Book 28, Number 28.2.4:

Malik related to me from Abdullah ibn al-Fadl from Nafi ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim from Abdullah ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "A woman who has been previously married is more entitled to her person than her guardian, and a virgin must be asked for her consent for herself, and her consent is her silence "

[imran1976]

The danger of this opinion, its certainly not a shari' one, a rather reactionery one, we can see in illigitimate marriages taking place in Muslim countries. These marriages are termed 'civil court marriages' where a man and women run away from home and get a judge from court to marry them off. These illigitimate marriages have been endorced by Govt scholars who have served as judges in courts of civil law in pakistan, I need not mention names.

These are mere opinions only and causing havoc in countries like Pakistan destorying and ruining families and family structures. :(

i totally agree....:up:

[Cupcake]

Is Muta (Temporary Marriage) Allowed in Islaam? (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/muta.htm)