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View Full Version : Kaffiir or just siner ..so simply ?


serious
17-07-05, 08:18 PM
The issue of trying to know what makes one kaffir and just a siner I think needs very big concentration and understanding



lots of muslems today do fool themselves under the sense once they are muslems then the paradise is already guaranteed
do we know under the conditions and stages that proceeds as a sinful muslem ?

it is after he/she is purified from the sins by passing through the hellfire

ok how long it is for a sinner to stay in the hell fire to finish his punishment to go to the paradise ? it is thousands of years isn’t it ?

how can one bear thousands of years in a fire and not able to be patient for not more than 70 or 80 years( our life span ) to avoid sins that takes us there despite being muslem

azureal
18-07-05, 05:56 PM
this is what makes you a kafir...





Types of Apostasy (Riddah)

It is obligatory upon every Muslim to preserve his faith in Islam and protect it against whatever invalidates, abolishes, and interrupts it, namely, apostasy (riddah); we seek refuge with Allah, ta^ala, from it.

The meaning of what an-Nawawiyy and others said is: "Apostasy is the most abhorrent type of blasphemy." In this age it has become common to speak carelessly to the extent some people utter words which turn them out of Islam, and they do not deem such words sinful despite them being blasphemous. This is asserted by the saying of the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam: <<A person may utter a word he thinks harmless, which results in his falling the depth of seventy years into Hellfire.>> This hadith was related by at-Tirmidhiyy who classified it as a hasan1 hadith. A hadith related by al-Bukhariyy and Muslim has a similar meaning. This hadith is evidence it is not a condition for a person to commit blasphemy that he must have learned the judgement per se or that he must have liked or believed the meaning of the uttered blasphemous words--as falsely stated in the book called Fiqh-us-Sunnah. It is also not a condition for falling into blasphemy that one is not angry when uttering blasphemy. Imam an-Nawawiyy said: "If a man was angry with his child or slave and hit him severely, then another person asked him, 'How could you do this? Aren't you a Muslim?' and to that his deliberate answer was 'No,' he blasphemed." This was said by Hanafiyy scholars as well as others.

An-Nawawiyy and other scholars among the four schools (madhhabs), classified apostasy into three categories: beliefs in the heart, actions committed by different parts of the body, and sayings with the tongue. Each category of apostasy is divided into many subdivisions.

1) Examples of the first category of apostasy, i.e., the beliefs in the heart, are:

having the doubt in Allah, His Messenger, the Qur'an, the Day of Judgement, Paradise, Hell, Reward, Punishment, or similar matters upon which there has been scholarly consensus (ijma^1);
believing the world is eternal by kind and elements or by kind only;
renouncing one of the attributes of Allah, ta^ala, known by ijma^ He is attributed with--such as knowing about everything;
ascribing to Him what is known by ijma^ does not befit Him--such as being a body;
legitimating what is commonly known among the Muslims to be unlawful (haram)--such as adultery and fornication (zina), sodomy (liwat), killing (qatl), stealing (sariqah), and taking money of others by force (ghasb);
deeming unlawful (haram) what is commonly known among the Muslims to be lawful (halal)--such as selling and marriage;
renouncing the obligation of the matters commonly known among the Muslims to be obligatory--such as the five prayers or one prostration of them, Zakah, Fasting (Sawm), Pilgrimage (Hajj), and Ablution (Wudu');
deeming obligatory the matters commonly known among the Muslims not to be obligatory;
renouncing the legitimacy of what all Muslims know is legitimate;
intending to blaspheme in the future;
intending to do any of the aforementioned;
hesitating whether or not to blaspheme--but not the mere involuntary thought of it;
denying the companionship of our master Abu Bakr, may Allah raise his rank;
denying the Message of he who is recognized by all Muslims as a messenger or a prophet;
renouncing, just to be stubborn, a letter of the Qur'an which is known by all Muslims to be of it;
adding, just to be stubborn, a letter to the Qur'an which is known by all Muslims not to be of it;
belying a messenger or blemishing his attributes;
making a messenger's name diminutive with the purpose of degrading him;
believing in the possibility of the prophethood of someone after our Prophet Muhammad, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam.
2)The second category of apostasy, i.e., the apostasy of actions committed by different parts of the body, includes prostrating to an idol or the sun, or prostrating to any other creation with the purpose of worshipping it.

3) The third category of apostasy, i.e., the apostasy of sayings uttered with the tongue, are very numerous and uncounted. Some examples are:

to say to a Muslim: 'O blasphemer', 'O Jew', 'O Christian', or 'O you without religion', meaning the religion of the addressed person is blasphemy, Judaism, Christianity, or not a religion--but not with the purpose of likening him to those non-Muslims in behavior;
to mock one of the names of Allah, ta^ala, His Promise, or His Threat, by someone who is aware these have been attributed to Him, subhanahu;
to say: 'If Allah ordered me with such a thing I would not do it'--out of belittlement or out of stubbornness which is showing that Allah does not deserve to be obeyed even though one believes He does;
to say: 'If the Qiblah were changed to another direction I would not pray towards it'--out of belittlement or out of stubbornness which is to show that it is not an obligation to face the Qiblah in prayer although one believes it is;
to say: 'If Allah gave me Paradise I would not enter it'--out of belittlement or out of stubbornness, i.e., refusing to glorify Paradise although one knows glorifying it is part of the Religion;
to say: 'If Allah punished me for leaving out prayers despite my sickness He would wrong me';
to say: 'Something happened without the will of Allah';
to say: 'If prophets, angels, or all Muslims testified before me about something I would not accept from them';
to say: 'I will not do that even if it is a recommended matter (sunnah)'--with the purpose of mockery;
to say: 'If someone were a prophet I would not believe in him';
to say: 'What is this law (Shar^)?' when a scholar gives a religious judgement--with the purpose of belittling the judgement of the Islamic law;
to belittle the status of knowledge by saying: 'May Allah's damn be upon every religious scholar';
to say: 'I do not acknowledge Allah, the angels, the Prophet, the Qur'an, the Islamic law (Shar^), or Islam;
to say: 'I do not know the judgement'--with the purpose of mocking the judgement revealed by Allah;
to say Ayah 34, Surat an-Naba' after one has filled a cup:
http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/images/sum06.gif



This ayah refers to a cup full to the brim with the drinks of Paradise;






to say Ayah 20, Surat an-Naba' after one has emptied a drink:


http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/images/sum07.gif



This ayah refers to mountains that will vanish on the Judgement Day as if they were a mirage;






to say Ayah 30, Surat al Mutaffifin upon weighing or measuring:


http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/images/sum08.gif



This ayah refers to some people cheating in measuring and weighing;






to say Ayah 47, Surat al-Kahf when seeing a crowd:


http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/images/sum09.gif



which refers to the Judgement Day when the people will be assembled without any of them left out--with the intention of belittling the meaning of these ayat, and likewise whenever the Qur'an is used for that purpose. If it is used in such situations for other than that purpose, one does not blaspheme; however, Shaykh Ahmad Ibn Hajar, may Allah have mercy upon him, said: "This is not far from being unlawful (haram).";






to cuss a prophet or an angel;
to say: 'I would be a pimp if I performed prayer';
to say: 'I have not gained any good since I have performed prayer';
to say: 'Prayer is not good for me'--with the purpose of mockery;
to say to a Muslim: 'I am your enemy and the enemy of your Prophet';
to say to a descendent of the Prophet (Sharif): 'I am your enemy and the enemy of your grandfather'--meaning the Prophet, sallallahu ^alayhi wa sallam;
to say anything similar to those aforementioned, abhorrent, and ugly words.
A large number of faqihs,(A faqih is the one who is authoritatively knowledgeable in the Religion.) like the Hanafiyy faqih, Badr-ar-Rashid, who lived close to the eighth Hijriyy Century, and Qadi ^Iyad, may Allah, ta^ala, have mercy upon them, enumerated many blasphemous words one needs to know, because whoever does not know evil is more likely to fall into it.

The rule is: any belief, action, or saying which belittles Allah, His Books, His Messengers, His Angels, His Rites, the well-known practices of His Religion, His Rules, His Promise, or His Threat is blasphemy. Hence, the human being must use caution with the utmost effort to avoid blasphemy.



Repentance of the Apostate from Islam Murtadd)


It is obligatory upon the apostate from Islam (murtadd) to return to Islam immediately by uttering the Testification of Faith and leaving off whatever caused apostasy (riddah). Moreover, it is obligatory upon him to regret having done that and to intend not to return to committing anything like it. If one does not quit the blasphemy by uttering the Testification of Faith, he must be ordered to do so. If he does not reembrace Islam, the caliph will have him killed. The caliph will rely on the testimony of two upright (^adl) male witnesses or upon the person's own admittance of committing blasphemy. This is done in compliance with the hadith related by al-Bukhariyy, which means: <<Kill whoever leaves Islam.>> One's Fast (Sawm), Dry Purification (Tayammum), and marriage before the first sexual intercourse are invalidated as a result of apostasy, as is one's marriage after the first sexual intercourse if one did not return to Islam within the post marital waiting period (^iddah). The marriage contract of an apostate--male or female--is not valid with a Muslim or a non-Muslim. It is unlawful (haram) to eat from what the apostate slaughters; the apostate does not inherit; his wealth is not inherited; he is not prayed for, washed, shrouded, or buried in Islamic cemeteries; and his money1 will be in the Muslim treasury (fay').




It is not known the lognest time a muslim will spend in hellfire, some say 70,000 years..some say other wise.

Arsalan
18-07-05, 06:33 PM
Salam

You should shate the source of ur article, its website, the person who wrote it, when he wrote it, and what book is it taken from...

Else your article should NOT be read, HOWEVER TRUE it may be.

azureal
18-07-05, 09:35 PM
what if i wrote it myself?












www.aicp.org is where the article comes from...

xphile101
19-07-05, 11:36 AM
i am a convert to islam (15 years), and i have a question for you regarding your post.

How can muslims justify killing someone who has turned away from Islam (no matter how misguided they may be), when in the Quran, it states:
"there is no compulsion in religion"
?
Are you saying that there is a law above the law of God?
How do you know what will happen to this person? Maybe they eventually become muslim again, stronger faith etc.
please answer without use of hadith. In something as important as this (killing someone), i feel your answer should only come from God Himself.
aisha

azureal
19-07-05, 06:23 PM
an apostate is given 3 days to repeant, in which a knowlageable person will try to explaine his bad deed to him, and if even after being taught that he is worng , he still is stubborn and refuses to repent, then the calipha has the right to kill him.

and ignorance is not an excuse for blasphemy

xphile101
19-07-05, 06:27 PM
but why does the caliph have the right to kill him. Where does it say this in the Holy Quran?

Salman Al-Farsi
19-07-05, 11:23 PM
Salam

You should shate the source of ur article, its website, the person who wrote it, when he wrote it, and what book is it taken from...

Else your article should NOT be read, HOWEVER TRUE it may be.

I agree, if the sources are not posted alongside the articles espeically on creedal matters, they will simply be deleted. And if its written by the user themselves than it should also be stated.

azureal
20-07-05, 01:38 AM
but why does the caliph have the right to kill him. Where does it say this in the Holy Quran?

it doesn't state it in the holy Quran

when you apostate, you blaspheme against Allah, ...

in can't even believe soemone woudl ask the validity of that...you shoudl WANT to rid the world of apostates

you are killed for rape, and murder, what makes you think your not killed for blapshemy?...blasphemy is the WORST sin you can do..it is the worst act any human can do

there is nothing that is worse than blapshemy, JUST being killed is a good thing, for surely Allahs wrath will be grevious to the blapshemrs

and ontop of that..ignorace is nto an excuse for blapshemy, when you go to judgeemnt day..and your charged with blapshemy, saying 'i didn't know it was blapdhmey' is not going to save you from it....other wise everyone human on earth would go to jannah...

H25
20-07-05, 10:39 AM
it doesn't state it in the holy Quran

when you apostate, you blaspheme against Allah, ...

in can't even believe soemone woudl ask the validity of that...you shoudl WANT to rid the world of apostates

you are killed for rape, and murder, what makes you think your not killed for blapshemy?...blasphemy is the WORST sin you can do..it is the worst act any human can do

there is nothing that is worse than blapshemy, JUST being killed is a good thing, for surely Allahs wrath will be grevious to the blapshemrs

and ontop of that..ignorace is nto an excuse for blapshemy, when you go to judgeemnt day..and your charged with blapshemy, saying 'i didn't know it was blapdhmey' is not going to save you from it....other wise everyone human on earth would go to jannah...

but there are so many 'muslims' who do do not follow their religion properly - does that mean that they should all be killed? and if so who is suppossed to kill them in Britain for example?

azureal
20-07-05, 02:50 PM
all thsoe 'muslims' who are comiting apostate actions...if they don't repent, they will be going to hell anways

apostasy is not a joke, apostasy is an instant one way ticket to hell, even if you don't know you apostated...

you could apostate, and then for the next 50 years think your muslim and do everyhtign right, and whne you die, the anegls munka and nakir will smahs your face in for being kafir..simply becasue you apostated and you didn't even know about it.

that is how bad apostasy is.

ignorance is not an excuse for blasphemy

Aida
20-07-05, 03:44 PM
Sallam,



I just have a quick question for you...Everything you said well most of it I agree with but the last paragraph didn't make sense to me.

To my knowledge apostate means to abandon one's religious faith, now you stated and I quote:

"you could apostate, and then for the next 50 years think your muslim and do everyhtign right, and whne you die, the anegls munka and nakir will smahs your face in for being kafir..simply becasue you apostated and you didn't even know about it."



How can someone abandon his/her religion and then go back to it?!?! If that is the case in my eyes it would be repentance in some cases, which The All Mighty Allah excepts. I had a friend she was lost and by name she was a Muslima she left Islam (well she never actually knew much about Islam and the media was one source of negativity that pushed her away, one would say she was ignorant) and joined a church and studied the Bible. Some time passed she took the holly Quran and read it, she visited an Imam here and wanted to learn more. After some time she converted to Islam and is one of the most devoted people to Allah!

Maybe I'm mistaken so please help me understand what you are saying in more detail/examples.

Wasalam
Aida

azureal
20-07-05, 06:00 PM
Here is an example:

A sheikh is giveing a khutbah on the attributes of Allah, and he IS a muslim, and as he talks, he lectures, he says that Allah sits on alarsh [[from this point on..he is a kafir, wether he knows he comited an apostate action or not]], and he finishes the elcture..and goes on with his life..albiet, he thinks he is still a muslim, when in truth, he became a kafir when he attributed location to Allah.

so he will be going to hell, unless he takes the shahadah again.

if one learns about an apostate action, and is nto sure wether he done it or not, he would take a precautinary shahadah.

but if he remebers his action, he shoudl repent...and take his shahadah again.

and he doesn't need a witness or wudu or any of that stuff. [some whahabies say that you HAVE to have wudu and there has to be 2 witnesses...and both of those are lies.]

Aida
20-07-05, 06:56 PM
so you are still saying if they repent and take the shahadah they can/are/will be/ forgiven... I agree

Sorry previous post made it seem as though you cannot back on your actions which is contradictory to what I know and what you just said.

Thank you

Wassalam,

Aida

azureal
20-07-05, 10:01 PM
yes, and if they refuse out of stuborness..the Caliph can kill them

Aida
21-07-05, 01:46 AM
hmmm by the law of Sheriat... well I don't agree with one thing that you said..

"yes, and if they refuse out of stuborness..."

Not necessarily 'Stuborness' my brother it's their lack of love for Allah and the Truth!

azureal
21-07-05, 02:09 AM
when i said stuborn ness..i meant

The apostate, and if you tell them they were wrong..and they refuse to repent, after learning the turth..then you kill them

(i see this situation on this forum everyday..sadly)

Aida
21-07-05, 02:22 AM
yes to some degree.. but don't you agree when I say that even if you tell the unbeliever the truth their hearts and eyes are closed and they do not witness the beauty of Allah...sad it is, the day will come when the truth will shine ! But to some it will be too late..

azureal
21-07-05, 03:35 AM
i have seen people sit down with a salafi and prove his entire beleif wrong by useing actual Quran and hadith, , he walked the guy through every single aspect of aqqedah, step by step..and in the end..the salafi still didn't believe...

some people jsut have ahrden hearts and don't know how to open thier eyes

verily Allah guides whom he wills and misguide whom every he wills

H25
21-07-05, 02:40 PM
all thsoe 'muslims' who are comiting apostate actions...if they don't repent, they will be going to hell anways

apostasy is not a joke, apostasy is an instant one way ticket to hell, even if you don't know you apostated...

you could apostate, and then for the next 50 years think your muslim and do everyhtign right, and whne you die, the anegls munka and nakir will smahs your face in for being kafir..simply becasue you apostated and you didn't even know about it.

that is how bad apostasy is.

ignorance is not an excuse for blasphemy

you still haven't answered my question - who exactly is suppossed to be in charge of killing these blaspemmmius people in Britain?

azureal
21-07-05, 06:41 PM
you still haven't answered my question - who exactly is suppossed to be in charge of killing these blaspemmmius people in Britain?

i don't know....they are not udner shraiah rule...so the ruels chnage under that circumstance...

though, i am not going to give a fatwa in that area...as i am not knowlageable to the circumstances of britan.

serious
24-07-05, 10:31 PM
lets take an example from the muslem world instead of britain to make the question more easier
the caliph should be one for all muslems where ever they are .so is there caliph for us (all muslems) where and who is he ?

so if we are talking in general what penalty the apostate desreves i think the case is different

today the reverts who are confused due to the muslems born themselves by their deeds and verdicts contradicting one another .we can not call such confusion and questions an apostacy
they need answers and clarififcation but they are not declaring a clear hatred to the religion and claim they are apostated
i think this is what is happening ..just pointing at these type of people
so where is the caliph who is standing for them so that they will be acountable if there is any apostacy
and their confusion is not that way .it is what they want to know but they are not answerd yet

but that is not the point anyway .it is ,assuming as a muslem why to not be aware of not commiting sins intentionaly knowing we will pay this cost in the hereafter

azureal
29-07-05, 07:46 PM
why?..becasue i woudl rather comit a zillion sins and eventually go to jannah..then to comit 1 apostate action, and burn in hell forever..simply becasue i was ignorant of my apostate action



Again, a christian doesn't know the truth about islam...is he going to hell becasue of his ignorance?..yes

So, if we know that an ignorant person will go to hell, simply becasue they are ignorant to truth.

you can only say that someone who ALREADY HAS truth, and THEN comits blapshemy will have it WORSE than the perosn who was ignorant to the act.

and remeber, Allah guides whom he wills, and MISGUIDES whom he wills, people are ignorant for a reason,a nd that reseaon is the eternal the devine and unchaneging Will of Allah.

Again, Chrstians are ignorant to truth, will christians sitll go to hell becasue of it?..yes

jews, know the turht, but out of arrogance, they reject it, will they go to hell for it?..yes, Hindus are ignorant to the truth, will they be going to hell for thier blasphemy?..yes

So what on earth makes you think that a Muslim, who knows what is right and what is worng.. will NOT go to hell, if he comits blasphemy?

and with all that said, a perosn is given 3 days to repent, [Three Days], or they are simply killed

now, which sin is worse?.. zina with another woman [which you are stoend to death for..]

or blasphemy agaisnt The Almighty?

obviously, blapshemy is the worst, so why woudl the penalty for blapshemy, be less than the penalty for Zina?