Believers and Unbelievers

[History]

The Quran speaks of "unbelievers" quite frequently. How would you define this term--or define "Believers," ftm?


I find there are as many "Muslim" unbelievers as non-Muslim (by their words and actions)--yet somehow they have the ignorance/arrogance in thinking that because they claim to be "Muslim" that this alone makes them a "true Believer."
What do you think?

Respectfully,
History
[Or is this merely a rehashing of my older discusssion thread: "Which matters more? Being right or living right?" http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53647 ]

[Mira]

The Quran speaks of "unbelievers" quite frequently. How would you define this term--or define "Believers," ftm?


I find there are as many "Muslim" unbelievers as non-Muslim (by their words and actions)--yet somehow they have the ignorance/arrogance in thinking that because they claim to be "Muslim" that this alone makes them a "true Believer."
What do you think?

Respectfully,
History
[Or is this merely a rehashing of my older discusssion thread: "Which matters more? Being right or living right?" http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53647 ]


I totally agree. Some "so-called" Muslims are so insincere in their shahadah; they can be easily classified as "non-believers".

I will leave the "define believers" part for another, more knowledgable member to answer.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Anyone who has conviction in the Islamic doctrine (aqeedah) and the rules which eminate from it and affirms (tasdiqh Jazim) the belief (Imaan) in all of its tenents such as Belief in Allah, His angels, His books,His messengers, divine fate and destiny (al-Qadha Wal qadar), the day of judgement etc is a Muslim.

Anyone who denies any of this is no longer a believer (Mo'min)

[This is me]

The Quran speaks of "unbelievers" quite frequently. How would you define this term--or define "Believers," ftm?
the "unbelievers" are those who reject allah's message and the prophethood of messenger of allah http://80.249.99.228/forum/images/smilies/saws.gif , therefore, believing in allah (god) alone does not constitutes a believer. this (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/najat.htm) will further help under this issue. quran 4:150 defines disbelievers and quran 49:15 defines the believer for a layperson beside many other ayat.
first who defines ignornace and arrogant? it is to be islamic definition and not a general sense of perception of the words ignornce and arrogant.

people accuse many muslims to being arrogant while they are simply standing firm of their deen. nevertheless, even if a muslim is ignorant or arrogant according to the definition of islamic shariah, it does not make him or her a unbeliever or disbeliever or neither put him ouside the fold of islam.

I find there are as many "Muslim" unbelievers as non-Muslim (by their words and actions)--yet somehow they have the ignorance/arrogance in thinking that because they claim to be "Muslim" that this alone makes them a "true Believer."
What do you think?

Respectfully,
History

in a nutshell, let me put it this way. take an example of a palestinian child who father was murdered by the jews while he was infant and his sister was raped by idf soldiers. that child grewup without father and a steady source of income that may have enable him to go to school. but he has to work some odd job and subsequently remain ignorant or illiterate of secular knowledge and islamic knowledge. he also developed some of his view based on arrogance to compensate the short comings in his life. he is not guitly of any wrong doing and will not be punished in the hereafter since he is the byproduct of the crimes committed by the jews and he has not control over actions and unexpected results brought by those action. in fact, he is a victim as much as rest of his family. because the guilt and cause of his actions are the jews and they will have to bear the punishment of the crimes they committed and the punishment of the byproducts of their crimes, since they are the cause of it all. islam goes after the root cause of the problem for such conduct (the one who perpatuated the action is guilty, not the reaction) agai it is a subject that cannot be sumed up in few line here, and need extensive and elaborated discussion.

however, if a muslim with proper edcuation of secular and islamic knolwedge is acting contrary to the teaching of islam and he think he is strong man and he beats up some one real bad or even cause his death by this action, will be considered ignorant and arrogant and will be subject of punishment under "tazir" (criminal code) and for "hudd" punishment in case of death. this will not be a case of "qasas" since the death was not accidental, which means he will be put to death after due process. but he is still a muslim and not outside the fold of islam. only apostasy makes a muslim unbeliever, not any other kind of crime or stupidity per se.

[History]

Anyone who has conviction in the Islamic doctrine (aqeedah) and the rules which eminate from it and affirms (tasdiqh Jazim) the belief (Imaan) in all of its tenents such as Belief in Allah, His angels, His books,His messengers, divine fate and destiny (al-Qadha Wal qadar), the day of judgement etc is a Muslim.

Anyone who denies any of this is no longer a believer (Mo'min)
You are implying "True Believer" = "Muslim" and only Muslim.
And that there is no identification of "True Belief" unless it is within Muslim faith.

And by the rest (heeding all the rules), there are then how many "true Muslims"? >smile<

Respectfully,
History

[spes]

Also see the various lists titled something like "(10) Things which nullify one's Islam".

There are many varieties of this list found on the web, and it is also quite common to see books with this title in many bookstores.

For Example: 10 Things Which Nullify One's Islam (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=117)

.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

You are implying "True Believer" = "Muslim" and only Muslim.
And that there is no identification of "True Belief" unless it is within Muslim faith.

And by the rest (heeding all the rules), there are then how many "true Muslims"? >smile<

Respectfully,
History

We cannot determine who a true believer is or not, except maybe thier piety from their actions.

As i said anyone who denies or disbelieves in any one of the tenents of Imaan becomes a kaffir.

[This is me]

Also see the various lists titled something like "(10) Things which nullify one's Islam".

There are many varieties of this list found on the web, and it is also quite common to see books with this title in many bookstores.

For Example: 10 Things Which Nullify One's Islam (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=117)

.
is the web deciding and believing factor of islam? beside that do you understand the complexity, underlying causes, meaning and message of these these ten things or violations? do you know how to deduce and deliberate? i don't think so. what you can read is the only english translation?

what you don't get is that even if one's islam is nullified due to one of the reasons accoriding to islamic shariah or more of the ten violations, this person still have the opportunity to repent and correct himself or (her) and s/he is back in the fold of islam?

these are juristic matters, so please keep yourself to english translation as layperson. because if i ask you few questions quoting the english transaltion of one ayah, you cannot answer a single question your own, unless peeking in islamic sources.

[History]

Dear Salman al
Thank you for your post.
We cannot determine who a true believer is or not, except maybe thier piety from their actions.
And this is were we strongly agree.
As I've shared, per Jewish Teachings on this subject:

The Lord is near to all who call upon Him; to all who call upon Him in truth"--Tehillim 145:18

The righteous among all the nations of the earth have a share in the world-to-come--Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a, Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:2

I love moments like this.

Respectfully and many blessings,
History