What is a Madhhab? Why is it necessary to follow one?

[firdaws]

What is a Madhhab?
Why is it necessary to follow one?
© Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1995The word madhhab is derived from an Arabic word meaning "to go" or "to take as a way", and refers to a mujtahid's choice in regard to a number of interpretive possibilities in deriving the rule of Allah from the primary texts of the Qur'an and hadith on a particular question. In a larger sense, a madhhab represents the entire school of thought of a particular mujtahid Imam, such as Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi'i, or Ahmad--together with many first-rank scholars that came after each of these in their respective schools, who checked their evidences and refined and upgraded their work. The mujtahid Imams were thus explainers, who operationalized the Qur'an and sunna in the specific shari'a rulings in our lives that are collectively known as fiqh or "jurisprudence". In relation to our din or "religion", this fiqh is only part of it, for the religious knowledge each of us possesses is of three types. The first type is the general knowledge of tenets of Islamic belief in the oneness of Allah, in His angels, Books, messengers, the prophethood of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), and so on. All of us may derive this knowledge directly from the Qur'an and hadith, as is also the case with a second type of knowledge, that of general Islamic ethical principles to do good, avoid evil, cooperate with others in good works, and so forth. Every Muslim can take these general principles, which form the largest and most important part of his religion, from the Qur'an and hadith.

The third type of knowledge is that of the specific understanding of particular divine commands and prohibitions that make up the shari'a. Here, because of both the nature and the sheer number of the Qur'an and hadith texts involved, people differ in the scholarly capacity to understand and deduce rulings from them. But all of us have been commanded to live them in our lives, in obedience to Allah, and so Muslims are of two types, those who can do this by themselves, and they are the mujtahid Imams; and those who must do so by means of another, that is, by following a mujtahid Imam, in accordance with Allah's word in Surat al-Nahl, " Ask those who recall, if you know not " (Qur'an 16:43),and in Surat al-Nisa, " If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter " (Qur'an 4:83),in which the phrase those of them whose task it is to find it out, expresses the words "alladhina yastanbitunahu minhum", referring to those possessing the capacity to draw inferences directly from the evidence, which is called in Arabic istinbat.

These and other verses and hadiths oblige the believer who is not at the level of istinbat or directly deriving rulings from the Qur'an and hadith to ask and follow someone in such rulings who is at this level. It is not difficult to see why Allah has obliged us to ask experts, for if each of us were personally responsible for evaluating all the primary texts relating to each question, a lifetime of study would hardly be enough for it, and one would either have to give up earning a living or give up ones din, which is why Allah says in surat al-Tawba, in the context of jihad: " Not all of the believers should go to fight. Of every section of them, why does not one part alone go forth, that the rest may gain knowledge of the religion and admonish their people when they return, that perhaps they may take warning " (Qur'an 9:122).The slogans we hear today about "following the Qur'an and sunna instead of following the madhhabs" are wide of the mark, for everyone agrees that we must follow the Qur'an and the sunna of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). The point is that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is no longer alive to personally teach us, and everything we have from him, whether the hadith or the Qur'an, has been conveyed to us through Islamic scholars. So it is not a question of whether or not to take our din from scholars, but rather, from which scholars. And this is the reason we have madhhabs in Islam: because the excellence and superiority of the scholarship of the mujtahid Imams--together with the traditional scholars who followed in each of their schools and evaluated and upgraded their work after them--have met the test of scholarly investigation and won the confidence of thinking and practicing Muslims for all the centuries of Islamic greatness. The reason why madhhabs exist, the benefit of them, past, present, and future, is that they furnish thousands of sound, knowledge-based answers to Muslims questions on how to obey Allah. Muslims have realized that to follow a madhhab means to follow a super scholar who not only had a comprehensive knowledge of the Qur'an and hadith texts relating to each issue he gave judgements on, but also lived in an age a millennium closer to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and his Companions, when taqwa or "godfearingness" was the norm--both of which conditions are in striking contrast to the scholarship available today.

While the call for a return to the Qur'an and sunna is an attractive slogan, in reality it is a great leap backward, a call to abandon centuries of detailed, case-by-case Islamic scholarship in finding and spelling out the commands of the Qur'an and sunna, a highly sophisticated, interdisciplinary effort by mujtahids, hadith specialists, Qur'anic exegetes, lexicographers, and other masters of the Islamic legal sciences. To abandon the fruits of this research, the Islamic shari'a, for the following of contemporary sheikhs who, despite the claims, are not at the level of their predecessors, is a replacement of something tried and proven for something at best tentative. The rhetoric of following the shari'a without following a particular madhhab is like a person going down to a car dealer to buy a car, but insisting it not be any known make--neither a Volkswagen nor Rolls-Royce nor Chevrolet--but rather "a car, pure and simple". Such a person does not really know what he wants; the cars on the lot do not come like that, but only in kinds. The salesman may be forgiven a slight smile, and can only point out that sophisticated products come from sophisticated means of production, from factories with a division of labor among those who test, produce, and assemble the many parts of the finished product. It is the nature of such collective human efforts to produce something far better than any of us alone could produce from scratch, even if given a forge and tools, and fifty years, or even a thousand. And so it is with the shari'a, which is more complex than any car because it deals with the universe of human actions and a wide interpretative range of sacred texts. This is why discarding the monumental scholarship of the madhhabs in operationalizing the Qur'an and sunna in order to adopt the understanding of a contemporary sheikh is not just a mistaken opinion. It is scrapping a Mercedes for a go-cart.

[Debater]

Before contributing to this topic, I would like to say something about me. Since my childhood, I have been praying in mosques which are run by those who follow Imam Abu Hanifah. And if you pray like Hanafis, and if you come across, Hanafi scholars you become a Hanafi. This is so simple a formula. Same is true with other madahib.
Not long ago, it came to my mind, that why do most of Muslims follow 4 imams, why not more than them. And why can't another Imam comes whose madhab can be followed.
Once I asked the Imam of my mosque that you have visited Makkah and Madinah, so please tell me how the people of Makkah and Madinah pray salaat. He said that some pray like us, some like hambalis and some without their arms held. I really want to know how Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam prayed salaah. But still I think that since Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam lived in Makkah and Madinah for the most part of his life, so the prgeny of Sahabah in these cities would be praying the same way. So it's better to follow them. But Imam sahab said all hadiths about holding hands on chest of below are dhaif (weak). WAllahu A'lam.

Anywas, right now I think, that I can't stick to just one Imam, but I ll decide myself whose decision should be adopted regarding a matter. May be one problem, Imam Abu Hanifah solves very well, but he can't solve another matter so well, but another Imam, like Imam Malik solves that problem efficiently. But in any case I will keep the Book of Allah in view. So I will choose a decision which seems closer to Quran.

Taqleedi scholars say, if you don't STICK to one Imam like, Imam Ahmad bin Hambal or so, you would be following your desires.
Sorry, my mind doesn't accept that.
THIS IS A HOME MADE FORMULA by our scholars, ANGELS DIDN'T GIVE ANY INSPIRATION TO THEM.
What I do is between me and my Allah. If I come to follow my desires then no Imam can stop me. Obviously when following Allah and His Messenger, we don't merely accept things which suit us, and leave those which don't suit us.

Anyways, this is just my opinion, if anyone else can help me resolve this problem, I will be highly obliged.
But please don't type too much. No one wants to read too much in this world.

[neel]

This is the real problem of the Muslim community now. On the one hand, I do not have the capability of attaining at the correct decision regarding a matter. On the other hand I see the same problem associated with the traditional Alims in many respects.

Islam, as a religion, has many aspects. Philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, culture are all related with it. A traditional Alim may have vast knowledge on Koran, Hadith, jurisprudential matters regarding Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Ablution etc. But traditional Ulama has poor knowledge on philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, culture etc. The non-traditional Muslim intellectuals have some proficiency in this respect. But they usually make mistakes in judgment and are often criticized by the traditional Ulema.

The traditional Ulema do not have the capability of producing the good part of the non-traditional intellectuals' works. The non-traditional intellectuals are not free from errors. We are living in this dilemma now.

[Debater]

This is the real problem of the Muslim community now. On the one hand, I do not have the capability of attaining at the correct decision regarding a matter. On the other hand I see the same problem associated with the traditional Alims in many respects.

Islam, as a religion, has many aspects. Philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, culture are all related with it. A traditional Alim may have vast knowledge on Koran, Hadith, jurisprudential matters regarding Prayer, Fasting, Hajj, Ablution etc. But traditional Ulama has poor knowledge on philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, culture etc. The non-traditional Muslim intellectuals have some proficiency in this respect. But they usually make mistakes in judgment and are often criticized by the traditional Ulema.

The traditional Ulema do not have the capability of producing the good part of the non-traditional intellectuals' works. The non-traditional intellectuals are not free from errors. We are living in this dilemma now.
I have been fed up with hearing about this PLAY WITH WORDS that Ulama lack other sciences. In the same way Scientists lack the Knowledge of Quran. So what a big deal in that?
Quran is so simple and easy to understand. You don't need to be an Engineer or a Doctor to understand Quran.
And if someone feels that to understand Quran one must know philosophy, politics, sociology, economics, culture etc, then this means the lack of number of NEURONS. This is like to proceed with a medical surgeory, the SURGEON should be Anesthesia Professional, the Ward boy, the Nurse, the Electrician, Patient's guardian etc at the same time, which is stupid. The surgeon knows about his own work, he will only take help from other people. So Ulama must take help from philosophers, doctors, politicians, economists etc.
Please don't follow SECULARS to oppose Islam indirectly by claiming that Ulama are incompetent. If they are Incompetent then who we are. WE ARE IDIOTS. Because Islam hasn't come for Ulama. It is for everyone. And we can't find a simple excuse to go away from Quran saying our Ulama don't guide us. WE ARE NOT DISABLED, TO WAIT FOR ULAMA TO GUIDE US, WE HAVE QURAN AND SUNNAH FOR OUR OWN GUIDANCE. Ulama will help us understand Quran.

[omer1234]

You can follow any one of the four schools and still be following the sunna of the beloved prophet sallallahualaihewassallam. It was mentioned that Muslims are known to pray in different styles. This is due to the fact that Muhammad saws prayed in different styles throughout his life. There are hadith that show him pray in these different styles. What the hanifi mathhab did was choose the style the he saws prayed near the end of his life. This is just a difference in opinion between the scholars on what style we should pray. The opinions of all four scholars are respected and we can choose which one to follow because all four schools are based on the qur'an and sunnah.

[Debater]

You can follow any one of the four schools and still be following the sunna of the beloved prophet sallallahualaihewassallam. It was mentioned that Muslims are known to pray in different styles. This is due to the fact that Muhammad saws prayed in different styles throughout his life. There are hadith that show him pray in these different styles. What the hanifi mathhab did was choose the style the he saws prayed near the end of his life. This is just a difference in opinion between the scholars on what style we should pray. The opinions of all four scholars are respected and we can choose which one to follow because all four schools are based on the qur'an and sunnah.
But they put a compulsion that if you pray like Hanafis (or any other) you will do everything like them.
I ask who made this formula?
Has Quran been consulted to make this?
And if yes then how?

And I am sure, there must be other scholars of Fiqh existed as well, so why not other schools of thoughts (madahib) followed as well as these four.

[faqir]

lol, Mr. Debater, come back and debate madhabs when you have corrected your creed and you no longer deny the return of Isa a.s., the coming of the Mahdi a.s., etc. And while you are at it, throw away those books of Parvez and his followers.

This chap has been banned from other forums , and it would appear that some of his messed up articles have even been removed from places like the yanabi site!! lol!! [never mind, he has found a home in ummahforums!]

[Debater]

lol, Mr. Debater, come back and debate madhabs when you have corrected your creed and you no longer deny the return of Isa a.s., the coming of the Mahdi a.s., etc. And while you are at it, throw away those books of Parvez and his followers.

This chap has been banned from other forums , and it would appear that some of his messed up articles have even been removed from places like the yanabi site!! lol!! [never mind, he has found a home in ummahforums!]
Yeah I know, your Imam Mahdi alayhis salam will not come, so stop waiting for him, stop getting inspired by shias and shia-transmitted-narrations.

And believe in the creed of Seal of Prophets, and stop making the way for another Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani, you enemy of Quran.

Stop acting like a blind parrot, who speaks the lanugage blind people.

Because of you people, this Ummah can't be united, because the Book which can unite us, has been abandoned by you, as Bani Israel did, and you people have stuck to fabricated narrations (from shias).

And when you can't prove anything, using your head, you start behaving like shia idiots.

[MangoChutney]

But they put a compulsion that if you pray like Hanafis (or any other) you will do everything like them.
I ask who made this formula?
Has Quran been consulted to make this?
And if yes then how?

And I am sure, there must be other scholars of Fiqh existed as well, so why not other schools of thoughts (madahib) followed as well as these four.

I dont THINK there is compulsion to it. You see, there is no such thing as "converting" into any of these madhabs, therefore, you do not have to submit yourself to any of these imams. However you cannot mix up the madhabs while performing ONE certain action. For example, when praying your salah, you CANNOT pray the first half like Shafi and the second half like hanafi beacause that would not be the sunnah practice. While performing an action, you complete it enitirely like hanafi, shafi, maliki, etc. You dont break it apart.
And yes, you may call it a "formula" but this formula is only made to ease things up for others. It would be more confusing to follow different madhabs so its just easier to stick to one. But again, i think its personal preference, and i think there is no compulsion in following one madhab...it's entirely up to you.

[Makki]

Yeah I know, your Imam Mahdi alayhis salam will not come, so stop waiting for him, stop getting inspired by shias and shia-transmitted-narrations.

And believe in the creed of Seal of Prophets, and stop making the way for another Mirza Ghulam Qadiyani, you enemy of Quran.

Stop acting like a blind parrot, who speaks the lanugage blind people.

Because of you people, this Ummah can't be united, because the Book which can unite us, has been abandoned by you, as Bani Israel did, and you people have stuck to fabricated narrations (from shias).

And when you can't prove anything, using your head, you start behaving like shia idiots.

i like how you blame shia for loads of stuff and then blame "you people" for the lack of unity in the ummah

nice hypocrisy :rolleyes:

[simmy]

But they put a compulsion that if you pray like Hanafis (or any other) you will do everything like them.

I ask who made this formula?
Has Quran been consulted to make this?
And if yes then how?

And I am sure, there must be other scholars of Fiqh existed as well, so why not other schools of thoughts (madahib) followed as well as these four.

If you are on a journey, and you have directions on how to get there. They tell you go left and the go straight. You have some other directions too, which tell you to go forward and then go left. They both take you to your destination, However if you try and mix these up by taking one direction from the first set and the second from the other set, you will not reach ur destination.

Crap analogy, i know, but there are some things which if you try to mix won't be acceptable. In shafa'i fiqh the tarteeb of doing wudhu is compulsory, in hanafi fiqh it isn't. Shafa'i and hanafi peoples prayers are slightly different. If you try to pray as a shafa'i with the wudhu you have done as a hanafi, your prayer won't be accepted.
It becomes tricky when people try to use these differences to their advantage, for example, contact with a womans skin for shafa'is breaks their wudhu, if they now decide to pray as hanafis then they are just trying to escape having to go to the effort of doing wudhu. This is something that we should avoid as we are giving into our desires over what is right, and what is safe. This formula, as you call it, is for your own benefit, to help you to choose between your desires and what will be safer.

There are situations where you can do things from different Madahibs, which people take a ruksah on, through guidance from learned people, such as being in Hajj, if the ruling which I mentioned above about the shafa'is wudhu breaking on skin contact with women is applied to al haram during hajj, then it would cause problems for muslims there, as the place is heavily crowded and contact is easily possible. It is not practical for them to leave, do wudhu and come back, as this will not necessarily solve this. For this shafa'is take ruksah from the Hanafi Madhab.

Now this is different to the shafa'is to who this may happen generally as doing wudhu is not unpractical.

i'm not trying to lecture you or anything, just trying to explain that it is better to be safe than sorry.

Yes I am sure there must have been other scholars too, do you know who they are? Obviously not, else you would've mentioned them. And to be honest I don't know them too. The fact that these Imams documented their findings and rulings makes what they say more practical for us to follow, not all learned people of that time did this, as we would have had their information too.

These four imams are from the taba'een and taba eh taba'een (excuse the spelling) which is only 2 generations after the prophet(saw) and no one doubts what they taught.

Allahu Aalim

please correct me if I have said anything wrong above.

[Imaan]

But they put a compulsion that if you pray like Hanafis (or any other) you will do everything like them.
I ask who made this formula?
Has Quran been consulted to make this?
And if yes then how?

And I am sure, there must be other scholars of Fiqh existed as well, so why not other schools of thoughts (madahib) followed as well as these four.

Hi

Can you tell me please that how followintg any madhab is contrary to the Qur'an?

Who are "they" who put compulsion and how do they do it?

Well these four Juristic schools are followed by the entire Umman, Hanifis are the largest, in fact, more tham other three combined.

[Imaan]

What is a Madhhab?
Why is it necessary to follow one?






© Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1995The word madhhab is derived from an Arabic word meaning "to go" or "to take as a way", and refers to a mujtahid's choice in regard to a number of interpretive possibilities in deriving the rule of Allah from the primary texts of the Qur'an and hadith on a particular question. In a larger sense, a madhhab represents the entire school of thought of a particular mujtahid Imam, such as Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi'i, or Ahmad--together with many first-rank scholars that came after each of these in their respective schools, who checked their evidences and refined and upgraded their work. The mujtahid Imams were thus explainers, who operationalized the Qur'an and sunna in the specific shari'a rulings in our lives that are collectively known as fiqh or "jurisprudence". In relation to our din or "religion", this fiqh is only part of it, for the religious knowledge each of us possesses is of three types. The first type is the general knowledge of tenets of Islamic belief in the oneness of Allah, in His angels, Books, messengers, the prophethood of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), and so on. All of us may derive this knowledge directly from the Qur'an and hadith, as is also the case with a second type of knowledge, that of general Islamic ethical principles to do good, avoid evil, cooperate with others in good works, and so forth. Every Muslim can take these general principles, which form the largest and most important part of his religion, from the Qur'an and hadith.










The third type of knowledge is that of the specific understanding of particular divine commands and prohibitions that make up the shari'a. Here, because of both the nature and the sheer number of the Qur'an and hadith texts involved, people differ in the scholarly capacity to understand and deduce rulings from them. But all of us have been commanded to live them in our lives, in obedience to Allah, and so Muslims are of two types, those who can do this by themselves, and they are the mujtahid Imams; and those who must do so by means of another, that is, by following a mujtahid Imam, in accordance with Allah's word in Surat al-Nahl," Ask those who recall, if you know not " (Qur'an 16:43),and in Surat al-Nisa," If they had referred it to the Messenger and to those of authority among them, then those of them whose task it is to find it out would have known the matter " (Qur'an 4:83),in which the phrase those of them whose task it is to find it out, expresses the words "alladhina yastanbitunahu minhum", referring to those possessing the capacity to draw inferences directly from the evidence, which is called in Arabic istinbat.










These and other verses and hadiths oblige the believer who is not at the level of istinbat or directly deriving rulings from the Qur'an and hadith to ask and follow someone in such rulings who is at this level. It is not difficult to see why Allah has obliged us to ask experts, for if each of us were personally responsible for evaluating all the primary texts relating to each question, a lifetime of study would hardly be enough for it, and one would either have to give up earning a living or give up ones din, which is why Allah says in surat al-Tawba, in the context of jihad:" Not all of the believers should go to fight. Of every section of them, why does not one part alone go forth, that the rest may gain knowledge of the religion and admonish their people when they return, that perhaps they may take warning " (Qur'an 9:122).The slogans we hear today about "following the Qur'an and sunna instead of following the madhhabs" are wide of the mark, for everyone agrees that we must follow the Qur'an and the sunna of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace). The point is that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is no longer alive to personally teach us, and everything we have from him, whether the hadith or the Qur'an, has been conveyed to us through Islamic scholars. So it is not a question of whether or not to take our din from scholars, but rather, from which scholars. And this is the reason we have madhhabs in Islam: because the excellence and superiority of the scholarship of the mujtahid Imams--together with the traditional scholars who followed in each of their schools and evaluated and upgraded their work after them--have met the test of scholarly investigation and won the confidence of thinking and practicing Muslims for all the centuries of Islamic greatness. The reason why madhhabs exist, the benefit of them, past, present, and future, is that they furnish thousands of sound, knowledge-based answers to Muslims questions on how to obey Allah. Muslims have realized that to follow a madhhab means to follow a super scholar who not only had a comprehensive knowledge of the Qur'an and hadith texts relating to each issue he gave judgements on, but also lived in an age a millennium closer to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and his Companions, when taqwa or "godfearingness" was the norm--both of which conditions are in striking contrast to the scholarship available today.




While the call for a return to the Qur'an and sunna is an attractive slogan, in reality it is a great leap backward, a call to abandon centuries of detailed, case-by-case Islamic scholarship in finding and spelling out the commands of the Qur'an and sunna, a highly sophisticated, interdisciplinary effort by mujtahids, hadith specialists, Qur'anic exegetes, lexicographers, and other masters of the Islamic legal sciences. To abandon the fruits of this research, the Islamic shari'a, for the following of contemporary sheikhs who, despite the claims, are not at the level of their predecessors, is a replacement of something tried and proven for something at best tentative. The rhetoric of following the shari'a without following a particular madhhab is like a person going down to a car dealer to buy a car, but insisting it not be any known make--neither a Volkswagen nor Rolls-Royce nor Chevrolet--but rather "a car, pure and simple". Such a person does not really know what he wants; the cars on the lot do not come like that, but only in kinds. The salesman may be forgiven a slight smile, and can only point out that sophisticated products come from sophisticated means of production, from factories with a division of labor among those who test, produce, and assemble the many parts of the finished product. It is the nature of such collective human efforts to produce something far better than any of us alone could produce from scratch, even if given a forge and tools, and fifty years, or even a thousand. And so it is with the shari'a, which is more complex than any car because it deals with the universe of human actions and a wide interpretative range of sacred texts. This is why discarding the monumental scholarship of the madhhabs in operationalizing the Qur'an and sunna in order to adopt the understanding of a contemporary sheikh is not just a mistaken opinion. It is scrapping a Mercedes for a go-cart.




We need more authorative articles from Islamic scholars.

[Imaan]

Before contributing to this topic, I would like to say something about me. Since my childhood, I have been praying in mosques which are run by those who follow Imam Abu Hanifah. And if you pray like Hanafis, and if you come across, Hanafi scholars you become a Hanafi. This is so simple a formula. Same is true with other madahib.
Not long ago, it came to my mind, that why do most of Muslims follow 4 imams, why not more than them. And why can't another Imam comes whose madhab can be followed.
Once I asked the Imam of my mosque that you have visited Makkah and Madinah, so please tell me how the people of Makkah and Madinah pray salaat. He said that some pray like us, some like hambalis and some without their arms held. I really want to know how Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam prayed salaah. But still I think that since Rasoolullah sallAllahu alayhe wasallam lived in Makkah and Madinah for the most part of his life, so the prgeny of Sahabah in these cities would be praying the same way. So it's better to follow them. But Imam sahab said all hadiths about holding hands on chest of below are dhaif (weak). WAllahu A'lam.

Anywas, right now I think, that I can't stick to just one Imam, but I ll decide myself whose decision should be adopted regarding a matter. May be one problem, Imam Abu Hanifah solves very well, but he can't solve another matter so well, but another Imam, like Imam Malik solves that problem efficiently. But in any case I will keep the Book of Allah in view. So I will choose a decision which seems closer to Quran.

Taqleedi scholars say, if you don't STICK to one Imam like, Imam Ahmad bin Hambal or so, you would be following your desires.
Sorry, my mind doesn't accept that.
THIS IS A HOME MADE FORMULA by our scholars, ANGELS DIDN'T GIVE ANY INSPIRATION TO THEM.
What I do is between me and my Allah. If I come to follow my desires then no Imam can stop me. Obviously when following Allah and His Messenger, we don't merely accept things which suit us, and leave those which don't suit us.

Anyways, this is just my opinion, if anyone else can help me resolve this problem, I will be highly obliged.
But please don't type too much. No one wants to read too much in this world.

This is absurd, first of all I am Hanifi, and let me tell you that we Hanifi out number rest of the three Imam's followers combined and that has always been the case historically. But, we don't force anyone to adopt our way. Thus, you are spreading rumors here. In our Masijd, people even do completely unIslamic and against the Shariah things? Who are these people? They follow Shafi'i and Maliki Madhabs. Malikis each day and for every prayer do their own seperate Salat/Jamah, it is against any Shariah rule. But they have not been stopped because those ignorant thinks and acts subjectively. If I am in Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali Masjid, I would follow that Imam for Salat.

Anyway, I suggest that you acquire some knowledge before slandering any scholar of Imam, be they Hanifi, Shafi'i, Maliki or Hanbali.

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

Ignore this Debater chap.

Has on this forum denied the return of Isa as

Denied the arrival of the Mahdi as

Posted some Parvezi hadith rejection nonsense.

And on other forums [eg. sunniforum and yanabi] denied that Hadhrat Ali RA was one of the righteous Khalifas.

He has been banned from other forums yet I fail to see why he is allowed to propagate his false beliefs here.

Wasalam.

[Kayled]

if this is true take it up to the moderators and ban him .. lol
really is simple :rolleyes: .

Peace Out

[simmy]

For those who are interested on reading more from scholars regarding madhabs here are some links to sunnipath.org

I think you'll find a more latest and loooonnngerr reply from Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/PrintMedia/Articles/AR00000083.aspx


one from Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/PrintMedia/Articles/AR00000164.aspx

and one from Shaykh Murabatal Haaj Translated by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/PrintMedia/Articles/AR00000165.aspx


3 very learned scholars ;)

Yeah, ur right Faqir, we should ignore him :up: , the above is for the sake of muslims who would like to know more about madhabs, seen as this will be a thread that will show up on doing a search for Madhabs

[Bubble-Buster]

Stop acting like a blind parrot, who speaks the lanugage blind people.


I thought I have seen the world, have been at countless places, have read a lot. But, frankly I have no clue what you are talking about and how did you acquire this knowledge that how a blind parrot acts who speaks the language the blind people?

Are you talking about a blind parrot who knows the Braille, or I am missing something here?

[Debater]

This is absurd, first of all I am Hanifi, and let me tell you that we Hanifi out number rest of the three Imam's followers combined and that has always been the case historically. But, we don't force anyone to adopt our way. Thus, you are spreading rumors here...

I never said, one group forces another. Only that you didn't understand what I meant.

And to faqir

He belongs to people who are, in Urdu language, lakeer kay faqir.

When people like him don't have answers to questions asked, they slander like faqir is famous for.

La'natullahi 'alal kazibeen, is the token for those who issue certificates of being deviants, without any witness.

[Debater]

Asalamu alaykum,

Ignore this Debater chap.

Has on this forum denied the return of Isa as

Denied the arrival of the Mahdi as

Posted some Parvezi hadith rejection nonsense.

And on other forums [eg. sunniforum and yanabi] denied that Hadhrat Ali RA was one of the righteous Khalifas.

He has been banned from other forums yet I fail to see why he is allowed to propagate his false beliefs here.

Wasalam.
I didn't want to intervene any more but just to make things clear I will try to clear these allegations faqir has put which he always does under any thread, proving himself a Fasaadi.

1. He claims I deny the return of Isa alayhis salam, though I have cleared it on many occasions that I am still doing my research on this belief.
Imam Malik rahimahullah holds the view that Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam died at the age of 33, but this faqir doesn't call him a pervezi.
Not far away, Doctor Allamah Muhammad Iqbal, Maulana Abul Kalam Azaad (Ahl-al-Hadith), Maulana Obedullah Sindhi (Deoband) have the same views regarding Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam that he has died and won't come again.
Are they all Pervezis?
Pervez must be born much later.

2. As for coming of Mahdi, there is no narration in Sahihain about Mahdi. All are shi'ite narrations which are included to less authentic hadith books.
Ibn Khaldun who was a muhaddith, have also objected these narrations, Allamah Iqbal and others have the same views.
Are they all pervezis?

3. As for Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali, I do believe in the Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali as the 4th rightly guided caliphate but in that thread on sunniforum I proved through a research that (majority of) Sahabah didn't agree on the Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali, this is the reason why Hadhrat Ameer Ma'aviyah ruled half of the Islamic State during the Rule of Hadhrat Ali on the other half. But it doesn't mean that I reject the Khilafah of Hadhrat Ali, that is the part of my faith because a group of sahabah still supported him.

Not only this faqir but even our ulama have this problem, that you ask them questions and if the questions are against what they believe in, they start calling you deviant or name you with other titles.

The purpose of asking questions might be to learn the truth, but it doesn't mean that when you don't have the answer, or you can't satsify the query, so you ll start calling the questioner a deviant.
I call such people idiots, who are blind parrots. They learn words from their masters and keep repeating them.

And the point to ban me shows that you don't have any qualities to defend your own faith. If I am wrong, then prove me wrong. What does banning mean?
It means you yourself are not sure of what you believe.

[Bubble-Buster]

I didn't want to intervene any more but just to make things clear I will try to clear these allegations faqir has put which he always does under any thread, proving himself a Fasaadi.

1. He claims I deny the return of Isa alayhis salam, though I have cleared it on many occasions that I am still doing my research on this belief.
Imam Malik rahimahullah holds the view that Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam died at the age of 33, but this faqir doesn't call him a pervezi.
Not far away, Doctor Allamah Muhammad Iqbal, Maulana Abul Kalam Azaad (Ahl-al-Hadith), Maulana Obedullah Sindhi (Deoband) have the same views regarding Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam that he has died and won't come again.
Are they all Pervezis?
Pervez must be born much later.

Can you please post your quote with context and with complete reference about Imam Malik (RA), so I can verify that? I don't care about your dialogue with others. By the way Doctor Allamah Muhammad Iqbal, is not the right source to use in religious dialogue. He is not even qualified to offer opinion on this subject matter.
102-CHAPTER: The killing of pigs
And Jabir said: «The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) made the sale of pigs unlawful».
[2222] Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: «Allah's Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: «By Him in whose Hands my soul is, son of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims) as a just ruler and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the taxation taken from the non-Muslims. who are in the protection, of the Muslim government. Then there will be abundance of money and nobody will accept charitable gifts.
The parts of this hadith are in: 2476, 3448, 3449.
49- CHAPTER: The advent (descent) of Jesus, son of Mary (may Allah be pleased with them)
[3448] Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: «Allah's Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: «By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, surely (Jesus) the son of Mary will soon descend amongst you as a Just Ruler; he will break the Cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jizya (i.e. taxation taken from nom-Muslim). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allah (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it». Abu Huraira added: «If you which, you can recite (this Verse of the Holy Book): And there is none Of the people of the Scriptures (Jesus and Christians) But must believe in him (i.e. Jesus as an Apostle of Allah and a human being) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgement He will be a witness Against them» (4:159).
[3449] Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: «Allah's Apostle (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: «How will you be when the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you, and he will judge people by the law of the Qur'an and not by the law of Gospel (fateh al-Ban page No.659, Vol.8).

2. As for coming of Mahdi, there is no narration in Sahihain about Mahdi. All are shi'ite narrations which are included to less authentic hadith books.
Ibn Khaldun who was a muhaddith, have also objected these narrations, Allamah Iqbal and others have the same views. Are they all pervezis?

Since when if a Hadith is not in Sahihian become unreliable and on what basis? How do you disregard the Khayr Al-Usool Fi Hadith Al-Rasool (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/hadith.htm)?


3. As for Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali, I do believe in the Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali as the 4th rightly guided caliphate but in that thread on sunniforum I proved through a research that (majority of) Sahabah didn't agree on the Caliphate of Hadhrat Ali, this is the reason why Hadhrat Ameer Ma'aviyah ruled half of the Islamic State during the Rule of Hadhrat Ali on the other half. But it doesn't mean that I reject the Khilafah of Hadhrat Ali, that is the part of my faith because a group of sahabah still supported him.

Not only this faqir but even our ulama have this problem, that you ask them questions and if the questions are against what they believe in, they start calling you deviant or name you with other titles.

The purpose of asking questions might be to learn the truth, but it doesn't mean that when you don't have the answer, or you can't satsify the query, so you ll start calling the questioner a deviant.
I call such people idiots, who are blind parrots. They learn words from their masters and keep repeating them.

Muslims don't disccus the merits of these issues and it is not permissible. Perhaps it may help knowing:
BELIEFS CONCERNING THE SAHABAH [RADHIALLAAHU ANHUM رضى الله عنهم] (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/sahabah.htm)

All the Sahabah صحابه رضى الله عنهم و رضواعنه (Companions) are the people of Paradise, and they must be followed! (http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/pop.htm)

[Moayidd]

I didn't want to intervene any more but just to make things clear I will try to clear these allegations faqir has put which he always does under any thread, proving himself a Fasaadi.

1. He claims I deny the return of Isa alayhis salam, though I have cleared it on many occasions that I am still doing my research on this belief.
Imam Malik rahimahullah holds the view that Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam died at the age of 33, but this faqir doesn't call him a pervezi.
Not far away, Doctor Allamah Muhammad Iqbal, Maulana Abul Kalam Azaad (Ahl-al-Hadith), Maulana Obedullah Sindhi (Deoband) have the same views regarding Hadhrat Isa alayhis salam that he has died and won't come again.
Are they all Pervezis?
Pervez must be born much later.



While doing your research on the 'beleif' try reading the Qur'an. I strongly advise you to stop 'debating' beacuse it is considered Jaddal and start reading/studying instead.

Now read along with me:


This is Jesus speaking:

019.033 وَالسَّلامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدْتُ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا
019.033 "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!

In Arabic the verse reads: The day i WAS Born. The day i WILL Die, and the day i WILL be resurrected.
Ok ? He WAS born, this we know but he is YET to die and be resurrected. So is he dead now ?

Now read this:

003.046 وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلا وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ
003.046 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

This verse is about 2 miracles o Jesus, speaking as a baby and at an old age. Why is speaking at an old age a miracle? Because he departed at 33 !

He speaks in the Crib (As a baby) and speaks as an old man (not maturity as incorrectly translated). If he departed at the age of 33 how can he speak as an old man UNLESS he returns ?
Also notice this: He was the messiah when he was alive, to further prove that he will return notice the part shall be (of the company) of the righteous. If this was about before his dearture it would have said the Messiah, but it says SHALL be of Al Salleheen (No longer a Messiah when he comes back).


004.159 وَإِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلا لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا
004.159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

Do ALL the people of the book beleive in Eesa yet ? No. Hence he can't be dead yet.


See how simple it is when you actually read the Qur'an ? I don't know who all the people you have been quoting are but apparently they are debators too instead of being reader of the Qur'an.
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