My intent IS to further Islam not hinder it

[~Stanley~]

What do you think about Islam & Arab customs being accepted and applies by peoples of different cultures ?

Is Islam to be applied through the intellect of the mind of the observer or through customs and rituals of a foreign culture ?

I ask this question with the intent of furthering Islam, not hindering it's growth.

[Mr_Jailer]

I voted for the sunnah of the Prophet saw. Followin' ones heart and mind is dangerous as ppl can introduce to Islam what they seem fit out of their own desires, and change the message, like the Xtians and Jews did with the Testaments.

Muslims should not repeat their ways. Islam as a Way of Life was completed 1400 years for all mankind and for all times.

[~Stanley~]

I voted for the sunnah of the Prophet saw.

But, is it practical to ask a Chinese or Middle-American or Icelandic person to adopt the mode of dress, just to worship the same God?

[Mr_Jailer]

But, is it practical to ask a Chinese or Middle-American or Icelandic person to adopt the mode of dress, just to worship the same God?

Yes. It happens all the time. It happens everywhere, includin' the uk. Women give up their skirts and blouses for hijab and jilbab. When the Truth dawns on anyone, no culture gets in the way.

[ponderingstar]

But, is it practical to ask a Chinese or Middle-American or Icelandic person to adopt the mode of dress, just to worship the same God?

it is not necessary to adopt a way of dress. dressing appropriately is necessary. I am not sure what else the question relates to. the essence of islam is the belief in One Allah and the Quran as being his word. Some arabs develop a superiority issue becaus ethey are arab but for the most part Islam is here to propogate equality amongst mankind.

[~Stanley~]

..........Islam is here to propogate equality amongst mankind.

Did you vote ponderingstar ?

[ponderingstar]

Did you vote ponderingstar ?

no stan i did not because i did not quite understand the question. to understand the Quran not only would you need to learn arabic as a language but you would need to study it and i can imagine it could become a lifetime of education. but i expect that all comes if you want to devote your life to that extent. that is not a prerequisite to becoming a muslim. Allah has made life very easy for us but temptations to do wrong or to do things which are unbeneficial seem easy, although most times humans do not see the harm of small actions.

a very simple example is the concept of sexual relations between two consenting adults. it may seem harmless in theory but in practice it denies the very nature of man. (and by "man" i mean mankind) there are issues of trust, jealousy, privacy etc. which are not taken into consideration. Also the repurcussions throughout society. Islam is whole system and i do not think that the arabic roots are what make you closer to God.

i would have voted if i understood what you were getting at.

quick q: have you ever read the quran? I mean i know it's a huge book but have you even read the start of it? I have just started readingthe translation myself and i do not really read the interpretations much unless a part of it really leaves me dumbfouded. however, my point being that so far i am amazed how simple and beautiful it is. Even some of the verses i have come across so far which are usually brought up either by muslims who are hungry to wish death on any non believer or by the non muslims who are desperate to show that the Quran is flawed and severe are all making sense within their context and show both those parties to be at fault in my opinion. although Allah knows best.

it makes so much sense that i wonder sometimes why there are so many differing scholars and sects and opinions. but i suppose i am beginning to believe that we will be judged upon our own understandings and that we must never give in to our personal agendas and personal pride which makes us think we know the real meaning above anyoe else. Only Allah knows best and only Allah can guide us to the right answer.

[~Stanley~]

no stan i did not because i did not quite understand the question.

You explained it very well in my eyes.
Thank you for taking the time in considering an answer to my question even if it didn't make sense :)

I believe you got the core essence of what I wished to discuss though.

[a muslim]

the prophet said my religion has been completed anything knew that comes after me will be rejected.

[~Stanley~]

the prophet said my religion has been completed anything knew that comes after me will be rejected.


Hello a muslim,

As a non-muslim on this forum, this point of "the prophet said ", has always been the central point of contention for me with regards as to how the knowledge of Islam is implemented.

As is also true in regards to how Christianity promoted the Risen Christ concept above
the Human Jesus and the struggles he endured as an example.
So too, I believe has Muhammad been elevated above and beyond
that which he intended as his examples.

[Rizi_Wizi]

quick q: have you ever read the quran? .

A very interesting q, for Stan to respond to.

[Rizi_Wizi]

So too, I believe has Muhammad been elevated above and beyond that which he intended as his examples.

Stanley, kindly substatiate your statement. What do you mean by been elevated above and beyond.. above what and beyond what?

.. that which he intended. as his examples What do you mean by this? Have you got a full and comprehensive understanding of his intentions. If so please share with us.

Please be specific in what you say and substantiate your statements.

[~Stanley~]

Stanley, kindly substatiate your statement.

Would Muhammad's honor be defended any differently than an average person living today?

If I pointed out a fact which was detrimental to a persons image,
would the amount of defense from the Ummah be greater if this person was Muhammad?

[Rizi_Wizi]

Stanley,

I requested that you substantiate your statement, not reply back with rhetorical questions.

This time, please answer the question being posed to you, with evidence and reasoning or retract your statement.

[Makki]

What do you think about Islam & Arab customs being accepted and applies by peoples of different cultures ?

we see the problems quite clearly when culture intrudes on the practices of islam, honour killings in pakistani culture, female circumsision in african cultures and people deciding to change the religion to suit their cultural practices all over the world.

these are problems because people start thinking these things are part of the deen

[Sultan]

What do you think about Islam & Arab customs being accepted and applies by peoples of different cultures ?

Is Islam to be applied through the intellect of the mind of the observer or through customs and rituals of a foreign culture ?

I ask this question with the intent of furthering Islam, not hindering it's growth.


If you bothered to learn Islam from its sources, I doubt you will bother asking.

A non-muslim, especially one who has not studied Islam at sufficient depth, is not going to tell us how to 'further' islam.

Our deen is our business.

[~Stanley~]

Originally Posted by ~Stanley~
What do you think about Islam & Arab customs being accepted and applies by peoples of different cultures ?

Is Islam to be applied through the intellect of the mind of the observer or through customs and rituals of a foreign culture ?

I ask this question with the intent of furthering Islam, not hindering it's growth.

If you bothered to learn Islam from its sources, I doubt you will bother asking.

A non-muslim, especially one who has not studied Islam at sufficient depth,
is not going to tell us how to 'further' islam.

Our deen is our business.

You are absolutely correct, each individuals path is of their own making.
Like a stubborn, rebellious teenager, some refuse to learn and grow into being a faithful and humble servant of God just for spite of the teachers appearance.

[Bubble-Buster]

But, is it practical to ask a Chinese or Middle-American or Icelandic person to adopt the mode of dress, just to worship the same God?

Hi

Stan

There is no uniform in Islam, it rather make covering to human bodies to be modest. So what a Chinese were in China has no bearing as long as the dress meets the coveerage requirements of Islamic Shariah. Obviously you are not familiar with the minimum requirements of Islamic dress code, not design.

[Bubble-Buster]

Hello a muslim,

As a non-muslim on this forum, this point of "the prophet said ", has always been the central point of contention for me with regards as to how the knowledge of Islam is implemented.

Hi Stan

With due reagrd, had you possessed the indepth knowledge of Islam, you have not have said that. What the Prophet {SAW} said" is the Islam, no less and no more. Because Qur'an backs it up 100%, which is not the case in Christianity and Judaism. The knowledge of Islam or Islam can only be implemented with Qur'an and Sunnah, as these two are the two legs of Islam.

As is also true in regards to how Christianity promoted the Risen Christ concept above the Human Jesus and the struggles he endured as an example.

Well, the case about Christianity is obviously different and questionable, but one cannot judge Islam with Biblical yardstick, it would be plain absurd.

So too, I believe has Muhammad been elevated above and beyond that which he intended as his examples.

Well, what believe does not constitutes that your belief is correct, here you have used the middle part of your post as pretext and judged Islam and Prophet of Islam using the Biblical yardstick. Muhammad {SAW} has not been elevated above and beyond than Islam, Qur'an and Allah has intended. You are perhaps, using this reverse psychology subtley here. But I was wondering as non-Muslim (as you have professed yourslef about you), why it is bothering you how we Muslims revere our Prophet (SAW)? Obviously, your objectives are to question and not to learn.

Take care

[Bubble-Buster]

If you bothered to learn Islam from its sources, I doubt you will bother asking.

A non-muslim, especially one who has not studied Islam at sufficient depth, is not going to tell us how to 'further' islam.

Our deen is our business.

Actually the term "further" is very vague and ambiguous and require to be elaborated?

[Bubble-Buster]

What do you think about Islam & Arab customs being accepted and applies by peoples of different cultures ?

Is Islam to be applied through the intellect of the mind of the observer or through customs and rituals of a foreign culture ?

I ask this question with the intent of furthering Islam, not hindering it's growth.


Hi Stan

Can you please elaborate the last sentence of your post, especially the term "Furthering" and how you as non-Muslim intend to "further" Islam is beyond me? As far as spread of Islam is concerned, it is spreading with leaps and bounds and we are quite satisfy with that.

By the way Arab customs and Islam are two seperate things, but you obviously have something subliminal here to imply with. There is a very delicate line between Islamic culture and Muslim culture, which some one like you canot understand by merely scanning the Internet. Islamic culture is unifored worldwide, contrary to that Muslim culture may vary from country to country or nation to nation, but always remains under the umbrella of Islamic culture (following the guidelines of Islam).

Islam is applied through Qur'an and Sunah, nothing else. A religion is judged by its scripture, and not by its followers or their customs and ritual. Nevertheless, Islam requires humans to use their intellect to examine Islam, unlike Christianity that requires you to blindly believe.

[Bubble-Buster]

Still waiting!:rubeyes:

[~Stanley~]

Hi Stan

Can you please elaborate the last sentence of your post, especially the term "Furthering" and how you as non-Muslim intend to "further" Islam is beyond me?

Still waiting!:rubeyes:

Please do accept my plea of forgiveness for not being tied to my computer while my life is slowly being ripped apart at the seams ! :rolleyes:

I ASK: Is not striving to promote and foster those ideals and desires our creator has instilled within us, called Islam (by some) ?

Understanding my question's answer above would present you with the answer
you are requesting me to "further" explain.

You intimate that my knowledge is limited to scanning web pages for my insight into what Islam is today,
as well as what it's true intent was.
Some seem to actually think that our creator will become upset with their lack of adherance
if their beard is not a certain length. :nono:
Some seem to actually think that some topics of discussion should be off-limits,
especially if one doesn't like hearing the truth which might be revealed.
Some seem to actually think that if a human being does not swear that Muhammad
was in reality the last of the great prophets, they will be left to survive continual torment by our creator.
I actually think that there is nobody alive who can say for certain that the knowledge
mankind possesses regarding our creator is 100% infallible.
I also believe that our creator is more interested in our mind and personality
than in the mode of our dress or length of hair.
I firmly believe mankind needs a wake-up call in regards to how best to visualize and give worship
to our concept of a One True God,
so that we may all join in this wonderful journey our creator has provided for us to travel.

[Bubble-Buster]

Please do accept my plea of forgiveness for not being tied to my computer while my life is slowly being ripped apart at the seams ! :rolleyes:

I ASK: Is not striving to promote and foster those ideals and desires our creator has instilled within us, called Islam (by some) ?

And who are you to ask, you are not a Muslim and you certainly have no knowledge of Islam.

Understanding my question's answer above would present you with the answer
you are requesting me to "further" explain.

You intimate that my knowledge is limited to scanning web pages for my insight into what Islam is today,
as well as what it's true intent was.

Of course I believe that, I also believe that you have some kind of agenda to prey on ignorant and naive to further confuse them.

Some seem to actually think that our creator will become upset with their lack of adherance if their beard is not a certain length. :nono:

You are stepping into very indepth area of Islamic fiqh. As a disbeliever you are not even close to be qualified to discuss these issues , let alone taunting it.

Some seem to actually think that some topics of discussion should be off-limits, especially if one doesn't like hearing the truth which might be revealed.

Of course, you have to be qualified to dicuss some issues. As a disbeliever you are not even qualified to discuss any issue, let alone being an inquisitor. If I sit down in person, you cannot discuss any issue beside spining it ir distorting it. That is why your kind patiently prey of ignorant and naive from behind the desktop. Yes, there are topics even Muslims are not qualified to discss without proper knowledge. So why it is bothering you? You are not a Muslim and why you are so much concerned about our faith?

Some seem to actually think that if a human being does not swear that Muhammad was in reality the last of the great prophets, they will be left to survive continual torment by our creator.

Obviously, you are clueless about Islam. It is not some that thinks, it is rather a Muslim belief and Qur'an testifies of that, about all those who rejects Islam and Muhammad (SAW) are destined to Hell.

I actually think that there is nobody alive who can say for certain that the knowledge mankind possesses regarding our creator is 100% infallible.

I actually think that you are shooting your mouth off without realizing that you are dead wrong and not the others. I say with 100% certainty that I possess the knowledge more that your priests and poses about Allaah and my knowledge is infallible. But who are you for making such generalized but absurd claims about others?

I also believe that our creator is more interested in our mind and personality than in the mode of our dress or length of hair.[quote]

Again, you and your belief is dead wrong and you have no way to proving that. Coming from Judeo-Christian background you have no truth and credibility to begin with.
[QUOTE=~Stanley~]I firmly believe mankind needs a wake-up call in regards to how best to visualize and give worship to our concept of a One True God,
so that we may all join in this wonderful journey our creator has provided for us to travel.

The underline text is a pretty nice way to deceive and invite people to Christianity and to worship a false deity. By the way why don't you go ahead and elaborate:

our concept

we may all join

Stan, everything is false, fabricated and abroagted and Islam is the only solution.

[~Stanley~]

Of course I believe that, I also believe that you have some kind of agenda to prey on ignorant and naive to further confuse them.

Of course, you have to be qualified to dicuss some issues.
As a disbeliever you are not even qualified to discuss any issue, let alone being an inquisitor.
If I sit down in person, you cannot discuss any issue beside spining it ir distorting it.
That is why your kind patiently prey of ignorant and naive from behind the desktop.
You are not a Muslim and why you are so much concerned about our faith?

Obviously, you are clueless about Islam.

I actually think that you are shooting your mouth off without realizing that you are dead wrong and not the others. I say with 100% certainty that I possess the knowledge more that your priests and poses about Allaah and my knowledge is infallible.
Coming from Judeo-Christian background you have no truth and credibility to begin with.

The underline text is a pretty nice way to deceive and invite people to Christianity and to worship a false deity.

By the way why don't you go ahead and elaborate:

our concept

we may all join


Stan, everything is false, fabricated and abroagted and Islam is the only solution.

Stan, everything is false, fabricated and abroagted ?
Seems like that is exactly what I said !


some kind of agenda to prey on ignorant and naive to further confuse them.

That is a very dangerous and libelous charge you are leveling, do you have proof that would be upheld in an Islamic court to prove these charges you level against me in a public forum?


As a disbeliever ........Coming from Judeo-Christian background

I find both quotes above to be nothing more than arrogant, elitist rhetoric,
unworthy of a servant of our Creator.

BTW, this new role-play you've got going as a bubble-buster suits you nicely.
A wise stern man, with a big stick, keeping all the sheep in line.
Does it actually work in the real world or just on these cyber forums where nobody can see you?

[Bubble-Buster]

That is a very dangerous and libelous charge you are leveling, do you have proof that would be upheld in an Islamic court to prove these charges you level against me in a public forum?


You want to give it a shot; we do have an Islamic Shariah court here in the USA? Get yourself familiarize with Islamic law of evidence and Islamic law about freedom of expression.

[Rizi_Wizi]

Originally Posted by ~Stanley~
So too, I believe has Muhammad been elevated above and beyond that which he intended as his examples.


Stanley, kindly substatiate your statement. What do you mean by been elevated above and beyond.. above what and beyond what?

.. that which he intended. as his examples What do you mean by this? Have you got a full and comprehensive understanding of his intentions. If so please share with us.

Please be specific in what you say and substantiate your statements.

I am still waiting for your reply Stan!

[~Stanley~]

You want to give it a shot; we do have an Islamic Shariah court here in the USA? Get yourself familiarize with Islamic law of evidence and Islamic law about freedom of expression.



I am more than willing to enter into a sharia court with you and your claims.
Tell me when and where to meet you and we shall present the facts to the court and I will submit
myself to any judgement handed down, as long as you are willing to commit to the same.

[Bubble-Buster]

I am more than willing to enter into a sharia court with you and your claims.
Tell me when and where to meet you and we shall present the facts to the court and I will submit
myself to any judgement handed down, as long as you are willing to commit to the same.

Are you that naive, Stanley?

I doubt that, and I believe that you are a very clever and learned person (not of Islam) from Judeo-Christian background with a well defined agenda.

You also know it well that in the land of Kuffar you are well off the hook. You take your complaint to Islamic Shariah court and tell them in your pleading that:

1. You are not a Muslim.
2. You want to further Islam
3. This guy (me) is a Muslim
4. But he opposes me (you) and have questioned my intentions etcetera
5. More blah blah blah
6. And more blah blah blah

Once the people there would stop laughing :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rofl1: :rofl1: :rofl1: they will talk to you, though it would be humanly impossible to keep the straight face.

Then they will do the :buttkick: that I know because I know the Islamic Shariah (al-Hamdu-lillah) more than, anything you would ever know; even if you live multiple lives.

You have thrived and survided here, not because you are smart or learned (of Islam). It is rather apparent ingorance of Muslims and kindness of moderators. But I can see through you, Stanley!

By the way, you have just shot yuor mouth off, without meeting my stipulation in my post that you responded. It was because you were cornered and have no way out. Just an observation! So your rhetoric is without any merits.

[Stillcurious]

Islam is like any other religion. There are quite a few of them and all think theirs is the only right one.

[Bubble-Buster]

Islam is like any other religion. There are quite a few of them and all think theirs is the only right one.

Don't you think then you are wasting your time in this forum, when you already know this?

I didn't know that you can't process this simple thought and leave?

[Stillcurious]

Don't you think then you are wasting your time in this forum, when you already know this?

I didn't know that you can't process this simple thought and leave?

It is always good to know more about other religions and the way people behave. Don't you agree?

[~Stanley~]

You want to give it a shot; we do have an Islamic Shariah court here in the USA? Get yourself familiarize with Islamic law of evidence and Islamic law about freedom of expression.
I am more than willing to enter into a sharia court with you and your claims.
Tell me when and where to meet you and we shall present the facts to the court and I will submit
myself to any judgement handed down, as long as you are willing to commit to the same.

Hey, Mr. Bubble Buster !
Are you ready to take that long walk into the courtroom yet?
Heck, I've got lots of spare time and I will even offer to sharpen the judges sword, real sharp.

Ready????

[~Stanley~]

I am returning after having been away from this board for a while and in going through some of the old posts so I might leave a response, I am struck by one aspect of this thread.

The main two questions are:

Islam is a religion of the heart and mind of the believer


Islam should be adhered to just like during the days of the Prophet

It seems the vast majority of participants in the POLL results above, believe seeking Allah?God,
is tied directly to how society functions.
I believe, it is truly the opposite, in that those who seek Allah?God with a sincere heart
and through spiritual guidance, is what makes a society function in a proper manor.

The hearts and minds of those individuals whom we place in a position of trust over our welfare
must be guided by Spiritual values.

Take as an example, a child, raised by a father who offers wisdom and guidance.
Then there is the child who lives under repression and a father who strikes out with his belt
each time the child does not live up to his expectations.

Which child do you believe will grow and flourish into an upstanding citizen?

[*IslamicGirl*]

Only Allah really knows. As the child who was beaten up may grow up and treat life more preciously as opposed to the kid who hasn't seen the brutality of life.

Family life is really stressed upon in Islam, as it's the family life that is a foundation for understanding, love and faith. If the kid grows up without both parents giving a t0ss then he/she will start searching and maybe comes to the worong sort of help but wont realise it as they have never been exposed to either side.

That's why Islam gives roles to everyone in the Muslims household, so that yes everyone has freedom of choice but aloso kids need to grow up with good morals. A father and mother figure can be a great dad/mom to his/her kids by simply trying to follow the way of Muhammad, Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him :saw: as he :saw: had the best character.

[Stillcurious]

Is it advisable for the Arab roots of Islam to be assimilated by other cultures. Similarly, other religions should be aware of the trends in other religions as well. We all live in the 21st century now and all of us have to develop.

[Rizi_Wizi]

[/i]


Heck, I've got lots of spare time and I will even offer to sharpen the judges sword, real sharp.

Ready????

The judge doesnt have a sword, the executioner does. I suggest you also bring a chopping block and lubricate the back of your neck. You will not feel a thing!

Like a lamb to the slaughter....:buttkick:

[~Stanley~]

Like a lamb to the slaughter....:buttkick:

You mistakenly assume that TRUTH automatically loses out
if one is a non-muslim and the accuser is Muslim.

Any court, unless it is a kangaroo court, operates with understanding the facts and truth of the charge.
On that basis, I would gladly walk into any court of your choosing and defend myself
against the charges labeled against me.

When & where are thee only questions I am left with.

Sincerely, ~Stanley~

[~Stanley~]

Is it advisable for the Arab roots of Islam to be assimilated by other cultures.

Hello Stillcurious,

I am not quite certain I understand the statement above.
Do you mean European & American's should assimilate toward the Arab roots of Islam?
Never happen !

What I believe needs to occur in this world of ours is the assililation of all the spiritual aspect of the Monothiestic Religions and the guidance that comes with that, which would rebuild our society toward good, decent people once again.
NOT through forced adherance but, through training and sharing of knowledge from one generation to the next.

Spiritual guidance & adherance comes from within the individuals mind.
I Believe, this is what needs to be promoted rather than ruling with an iron fist.
AH ! but, what about all those who don't adhere to the proper socially accepted guidelines?
Well, let's look at our options.
We could force all non-compliant people into forced labor camps,
with all proceeds going to support of the ministry services.
:shock:
No, that would be right now would it. HMMM?
We could simply divide up the seven continents into 7 respective church/religious properties.
Then each continent would demand all the adherants of their faith to relocate within their borders.
:rolleyes:
No, that would be right now would it. HMMM?

Maybe we could just build a great learning center for all the worlds people to come and use for their own purposes in finding their own chosen path toward the Kingdom of God?

HMMM?, I think I said that once before ?

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:
Would Muhammad's honor be defended any differently than an average person living today?

If I pointed out a fact which was detrimental to a persons image,
would the amount of defense from the Ummah be greater if this person was Muhammad?

:salams

YES it would, as Allah has given Muhammad :saw: peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him a very high status, his character and kindness alone is worthy fo all our time. It's not about preferential treatment because i can assure you anyone who spent time whith Muhammad :saw: Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him would be willing to sacrifice their life for him :saw: .


That's why Islam states that a Muslim should love Muhammad :saw: Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him more than anyone else in the world. As Allah will love you.

:salams

[*IslamicGirl*]

Islam is like any other religion. There are quite a few of them and all think theirs is the only right one.

So will you revert? :) Whats stopping you? :)


I sincerely hope you will, then i'll find you the best avatar in the world InshaAllah (God willing) as yours are a bit strange Farmer Jones :D

[~Stanley~]

So will you revert? :) Whats stopping you? :)

Hello *IslamicGirl*,

I'm curious, can a non-muslim seek to promote Islam without (as you say) reverting?

I began this thread and yet, I still am under the impression that my efforts are unwanted.
I believe that muslims have forgotten that ISLAM means a path toward spiritual living according to God's directions and have taken to regarding ISLAM as a club of sorts with memberships and rules.

[*IslamicGirl*]

:start:



Hello *IslamicGirl*,

I'm curious, can a non-muslim seek to promote Islam without (as you say) reverting?

I began this thread and yet, I still am under the impression that my efforts are unwanted.
I believe that muslims have forgotten that ISLAM means a path toward spiritual living according to God's directions and have taken to regarding ISLAM as a club of sorts with memberships and rules.

:salams

To promote something, you have to sincerely beleive in it 100% so if a Non Muslim wants to promote Islam i'm puzzled why they wouldn't just accep Islam esp when they belive it it to such an extent they want to promote it :)

Hope i made some sense stan

Best wishes
IG

:salams

[~Stanley~]

To promote something, you have to sincerely beleive in it 100% Best wishes
IG
:salams

Good point !

I believe in the spiritual rather than the societal aspects of what is termed ISLAM today.
I just posted a response which deals with this exact question under another thread of mine called: Acceptable behavior in Allah's eyes?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=590233#post590233