~*uc*~

[jamila]

Situations which lead believers into being Awliya (friends) of disbelievers, particularly among the Muslim rulers include examples which are,

Other examples of taking disbelievers as Awliya are supporting them,

Whoever is involved in these actions or has apart in them has established ample evidence against himself that he has willingly accepted disblief. He becomes a disbeliever. He will not be saved from this apostasy and disbelief until he abandons the act of taking disbelievers as Awliya and renews his Eeman (belief).

Taken from: Book of Eeman; According to the classical works of Shaikul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah; By dr Muhammad Naim Yasin You have every right to think he isn't Muslim. You have every right to shun him. You have every right to warn others against his company. You have evry right to confront him, face to face. What you keep in your heart or try and correct with your words or your hand is perfectly allowable, in fact commendable.

This still does not give you the right to make takfir on him by name. You are not the Shariah judge or the ruler or even one of the ulema you are quoting.

You have ignored my clear warning,

I have asked Brother Daniel for an official judges ruling that each of the individually named men are non-believers/apostates. If he cannot produce one, he is to cease making takfir.

If he produces a general ruling from the Ulema about Shias, Secular Party Politicians and the like, this is not sufficient evidence for a direct, personal accusation.

However, wording the opinion appropriately (e.g. reference to a group of people who have been declared non-Muslim by the Consensus of the Scholars) will be tolerated as a comment, of course.

The same kind of evidence must be produced by UC, and anyone who decides a Muslim is fare game. Now I will say once again Allawi is a kaffir and if anyone wishes to ban me, feel free to do so :)So I am banning you. 3 days.

Jamila

[^o)]

So, are users allowed to slander and backbite Mujahideen if they want without being banned?

Please answer without abusing your powers please.

[sajid]

Well u asked for a ban u got it......u even quoted "ban me" if u wish.....why u complaining for? and what u on about people Abusing mujahideen etc? it wud help if u actually read the stickies on top before making comments

[Phoenix CG]

hi my names phoenix cg, nice to meet you. i'm bored. and now must work. goodbye. ps sajid give me access to bro's

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Assalam Alaykum

I would like to know who are the judges today, issuing fatwas? And do they have scholarly credibility superior to the one of ibn Abbas, Ibn Umar or even latter Imams uptil Hujjatul Isalm Imam al-Ghazali and shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah ?

I would like an answer from the admin who issued warning and rejected the ruling of ibn taymiyah, which is has also been the opinions of Ibn Abbas (ra), Ibn Umar (ra) and vast majoirty of classical scholars?

Waslaam

[Chained_Water]

Wa alaikum as salaam,

Bro, reread the first post and quoted text in that. The issue was about ruling regarding a SPECIFIC person.. none was provided by the user, but they continued in making takfir upon that person so were banned.

The opinion of classical scholars wasn't rejected.. the act of specific users making their own rulings on other individuals was rejected.

Sis jamilah, could probably elaborate and explain if needed, because I haven't been keeping up too closely with the threads today, but she is sleeping now I think :)

Wa alaikum as salaam

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Assalam Alaykum

I would also like to see a clarification of a superior juristic opinion from the Salaf as-SAliheen which states that only a jurist can declare Takfeer and what qualification does this jurist need to possess in order to carry out this takfeer ?

I am very curious about this since, I personally do not subscribe to the takfeeri thought, for this I would like to see who is the suitable person to declare this takfeer in terms of rank in knowledge.

Barakallahu feek.

Waslaam

[aamilah]

Assalaamu alaykum wa rahamtullaahi wa barakaatuhu

May this post reach you all whilst you are in the best of health and Imaan AMEEN

I insist that this is read by the Mods inshaAllaah ta'aala.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Just as it is not permissible to label a specific person as a kaafir unless the conditions of labeling someone as such have been met in his case, so too we should not shy away from labeling as kaafirs those whom Allaah and His Messenger <!--#include virtual="/saws.htm" -->(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have labeled as such. But we must differentiate between what is specific and what is general.
Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed, 2/281.

UC quoted the following which resulted in her bann; I particularly insist on you to RE-READ the final paragraph which was quoted by UC from Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (it has been highlighted and underlined for u :D):
Situations which lead believers into being Awliya (friends) of disbelievers, particularly among the Muslim rulers include examples which are, showing respect to disbelievers and bringing them closer as consultants in order to take their advice regarding decisive and crucial matters; taking disbelievers as their entourage instead of the believers; assisting disbelievers in their injustice; imitating the actions, customs and traditions of disbelievers, forcing the Islamic ummah, by means of threat, attraction and media, to imitate and adopt worldly affairs of the disbelievers and tehir systems of ruling the nation and educating children.

Other examples of taking disbelievers as Awliya are supporting them; conspiring and carrying out their plans; joining their organizations and alliances; fighting on their side; spying for them..; giving them protection; putting them in charge of significant tasks; appointing them to very important and sensitive postssuch as the army and public utilities; approving their ideas, manners, values and beliefs; and calling Muslims to them and preferring their scholars to Muslim scholars.

Whoever is involved in these actions or has apart in them has established ample evidence against himself that he has willingly accepted disblief. He becomes a disbeliever. He will not be saved from this apostasy and disbelief until he abandons the act of taking disbelievers as Awliya and renews his Eeman (belief).

Taken from: Book of Eeman; According to the classical works of Shaikul-Islam Ibn Taymiyah; By dr Muhammad Naim Yasin

Shaykh Uthaymeen did say we should not shy away from labelling kaafirs who Allah (swt) and His Messenger (saw) have labelled. Now, unfortunately, Allawi's name has not been foretold by the Messenger of Allah (swt) but Alhamdulillah we have great scholars through time who have set out conditions to aid us in identifying those who are true enemies of Islam. Shaykh Uthaymeen also said we should not generalise and therefore to avoid doing so, we turn to what Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah has said which outlines the characteristics of a disbeliever i.e someone who has "made friends" with the enemies of Islam. Now having looked at these conditions as well taking Shaykh Uthaymeen's advice on labelling a kaafir, I can comfortably argue that Allawi is not exactly a friend of the Muslims having sided with Kafirs who openly declare War against the Islam. Therefore, I strongly believe that Allawi very comfortably fits into the genre of being a "Disbeliever".

I hope this answers all your queries.

JazaakAllaahu Khayr for taking time to read this.
May Allaah (swt) give me and you the tawfique to act upon the Qur'an and Sunnah of Muhmmad (saw). (AMEEN)

Wassalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu

[sajid]

hmm J
its not that trobule maker who i originally thought it was remmber the one that used to spam the board with constant bickering and drivel? it someone else this lol...ill xplain later to ya

[jamila]

Where in that quote, which I assure you I have read with great interest, does it authorise one such as yourself or me to say, "That man, with such and such a name, is a disbeliever."

If you re-read my post, I tell you exactly what rights I think you have - please compare then with the list you just quoted.
You have every right to think he isn't Muslim. You have every right to shun him. You have every right to warn others against his company. You have evry right to confront him, face to face. What you keep in your heart or try and correct with your words or your hand is perfectly allowable, in fact commendable.

This still does not give you the right to make takfir on him by name. You are not the Shariah judge or the ruler or even one of the ulema you are quoting. The issue, however, was not what your opinion of him is. Nor that you called him a kaffer in the first instance. That simply produced a warning of what would or would not be tolerated on this forum.

Now having looked at these conditions as well taking Shaykh Uthaymeen's advice on labelling a kaafir, I can comfortably argue that Allawi is not exactly a friend of the Muslims having sided with Kafirs who openly declare War against the Islam. Therefore, I strongly believe that Allawi very comfortably fits into the genre of being a "Disbeliever".If you enjoy making takfir on every person whose manhaj is different from your own, and who does not follow your ideas of what is meant by living in an international community, then by all means go to a forum where they enjoy wallowing in labelling each other rather than communicating. Here, there are limits imposed by the essentially plural nature of this discussion forum and its members.

A discussion of what in general is evidence of Kufr, apostasy and hypocrisy is perfectly within the limits of discussion on the forum (best done in the Muslim forum), but not the discussion of who are kaffers, apostates and hypocrits by name, get me?

No. The issue was deliberate defiance of a plain warning. She even challenged me to ban her while she deliberately flouted the warning.

We are a public forum, not a court of law or a shourah of ulema. We have a set of rules painstakenly posted up and linked to in every forum. You comply to them or face disciplinary action (and a three ban is not so bad a disciplinary action, is it?). Besides, I had already warned you (as well) that I was in no mood to play games. That is the end of the discussion. At least from me.

:love: Love you for the sake of Allah:love:

Jamila

[aamilah]

Besides, I had already warned you (as well) that I was in no mood to play games. That is the end of the discussion. At least from me.

:love: Love you for the sake of Allah:love:

Jamila
I am in no mood to play games and neither was that ever my intention to "play games". further on that note, I think it would be in your best interest to do something abt that thread on allawi and bann all those who have openly aired their opinions and thus, breaching the rules of this forum. (neither me or UC started that thread, just for the record)

Love you for the sake of Allah too (not to kean on the pumping hearts tho :eek2: )

wassalaamu alaykum

[jamila]

walaykum assalam,
bann all those who have openly aired their opinions
O advisor to the Moderating Admin of this forum, who should I start with?

Yourself ;) ?

If you aren't keen on the hearts, I won't employ them.

May Allah guide you.

PS. Hint... moderating is moderator's business. Users are not invited to bandy words with moderators for the gallery. Any further discussion you wish to have should be done by pm with me or any other member of the moderating staff listed in the rules.

[aamilah]

walaykum assalam,

O advisor to the Moderating Admin of this forum, who should I start with?

Yourself ;) ?

If you aren't keen on the hearts, I won't employ them.

May Allah guide you.

PS. Hint... moderating is moderator's business. Users are not invited to bandy words with moderators for the gallery. Any further discussion you wish to have should be done by pm with me or any other member of the moderating staff listed in the rules.
>>May Allah guide you
-AMEEN

>> O advisor to the Moderating Admin of this forum, who should I start with?

Yourself ;) ?
- im simply pointing a thread out that is of interest to u, just to be fair since i feel u missed it. If after all that you feel i deserve a bann.. then i embrace the bann with a big :D

>>bandy words with moderators for the gallery
- Im extremely sorry but i am not aware of what you mean by "bandy words". However if u are assuming that i am doing this purely for the sake of attention, then might i add that you are very wrong :)

>>Any further discussion you wish to have should be done by pm with me or any other member of the moderating staff listed in the rules
- Thanks for the invite but I shall kindly decline it

That is all from me too, I might be banned after this and to be honest its ur job, so do so, ONLY if it is justified.

Jazaakillaahu khayr
Wassalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu

[Umm Layth]

eerrr are we disagreeing that Allawi is kaffir?

I am sorry, but isnt testification of 80% of Sunni population in iraq not enough, that we need some guy sitting in the palace of Saudi regime, or some guy who has had dinner with geroge Bush the night before or some guy or teh payroll of British govt dubbed Scholar to issue a fatwa to this regard?

While Allah(swT) says in Surah al-maidha 'Whosoever does not rule by whatever Allah has revelaed are the Kafiroon" ..Allah (swt) doesnt say find a scholar to declare this?

Are people trying to make a new version of Islam, the one with clergies and highter priests adn popes...does that remind you of medieval Britiain...lol We are being taken back to dark ages...yikes

Brother Salman sorry. :embar:

:outta:

[~Stanley~]

Where in that quote, which I assure you I have read with great interest, does it authorise one such as yourself or me to say, "That man, with such and such a name, is a disbeliever."

:love: Love you for the sake of Allah:love:

JamilaHello Jamila,

I just happened upon this thread, and while I don't wish to comment on the focus of the thread,
I would like to make one comment that everyone might consider.
"That man, with such and such a name, is a disbeliever."The above phrase is used with impunity against non-muslims, IMHO
Is the phrase "a disbeliever" to indicate a person who does not follow the words of Muhammad or
"a disbeliever" in the existance of a Creator ?

[Umm Layth]

Hello Jamila,

I just happened upon this thread, and while I don't wish to comment on the focus of the thread,
I would like to make one comment that everyone might consider.
The above phrase is used with impunity against non-muslims, IMHO
Is the phrase "a disbeliever" to indicate a person who does not follow the words of Muhammad or
"a disbeliever" of the existance in a Creator ?
A kaffir is someone who rejects even one attribute of God or even one aspect of Islamic Doctrine from the definitve ones. In the case of Allawi he has denid Allah the right to rule, and has given this right to Geroge Bush.

Therefore he has taken george Bush has awliyah.

And Allah (swt) says:

“And of Humankind are some who take (in obedience), others besides Allah (swt) as rivals (Andaad); they love them as they love Allah (swt). When those who are followed disown those who followed them, and they see their torment. And all their relations will be cut off from them. And those who followed will say, ‘If only we had one more chance to return (to the worldly life), we would disown them as they have disowned us’. Thus Allah (swt) will show their deeds as regret for them. And they will never be able to get out of the Fire”

[TMQ Surah al-Baqarah 165-167]

[~Stanley~]

'Whosoever does not rule by whatever Allah has revelaed are the Kafiroon" ..Allah (swt) Hello Umm Layth,

The above phrase perplexes me,
in that it decrees unlawful activities against those whom might not know of the laws existance.

Take for instance :
Did Yeshua Nulify Kosher Torah? http://messianicfellowship.web1000.com/mark75.html (http://messianicfellowship.web1000.com/mark75.html)
In Leviticus, chapter 11,
God detailed exactly which animals were edible and which were not.
He did so, not as an arbitrary test of obedience, but for the benefit of His creation.
God knew long before modern science that pork is bad for your heart.
He knew that shellfish are the garbage-disposals of the sea and have their own unique place in the food chain, separate from human consumption.NOW, compare the above guidance from GOD to all of mankind with this:
http://www.saintbrendan.com/cdndec00/graphdec00/letter%20%22big%20boy%22%20lobster.jpg

The tail portion of this beauty would be so delicious !

Will this young boy be doomed to everlasting hell-fires because he ate his days catch ?

[Umm Layth]

I dont talk to bible bashers.

Bubye



Hello Umm Layth,

The above phrase perplexes me,
in that it decrees unlawful activities against those whom might not know of the laws existance.

Take for instance :
Did Yeshua Nulify Kosher Torah? http://messianicfellowship.web1000.com/mark75.html (http://messianicfellowship.web1000.com/mark75.html)
NOW, compare the above guidance from GOD to all of mankind with this:
http://www.saintbrendan.com/cdndec00/graphdec00/letter%20%22big%20boy%22%20lobster.jpg

The tail portion of this beauty would be so delicious !

Will this young boy be doomed to everlasting hell-fires because he ate his days catch ?

[~Stanley~]

In the case of Allawi he has denid Allah the right to rule
Was Allah on the ballot ?

No disrespect intended Umm Layth !
It's just that from all appearances, Allah is not present nor filing a complaint about being excluded from being the lowly ruler of a war-torn speck of land.
I would assume, if Allah wished to rule that war ravaged dust bowl, he could easily do so.

Perhaps the difference between Middle Eastern thought and the west is that in the West, we approach social problems from the masses desires, sending those wishes to the top authorities to implement on our behalf.
Whereas in the M.E., they have always been ruled from the top, down.
Strong forceful rulers, telling the masses what and how they shall live.
If the masses, are made up of followers of Allah, going from the bottom to the top, in governmental affairs would produce the results desired by the people.
Living as Allah intended us to live.
But authoritative figures, issuing ruling dictated from Allah's lips to their ears is treading on very dangerous grounds.

[~Stanley~]

I dont talk to bible bashers.

Bubye

bible basher ?
Is that how you interpret my words ? { You're either with us, or against us } ?

[jamila]

Hello Jamila,

I just happened upon this thread, and while I don't wish to comment on the focus of the thread,
I would like to make one comment that everyone might consider.
The above phrase is used with impunity against non-muslims, IMHO
Is the phrase "a disbeliever" to indicate a person who does not follow the words of Muhammad or
"a disbeliever" in the existance of a Creator ?Stanley, the difference between a Muslim and a Kaffir, or even a Mushrik (subset of Kaffir) is not their belief (or lack thereof) in the Creator.

Disbelief consists of denying that the Creator is worthy of submitting oneself to. It is denying that the Creator alone is worthy of worship, and that we are created to worship Him. It is denial that we are dependent on Him second by second, breath by breath, and so is everything in His creation. It is attributing to others a share in the worship we owe Him, either by assigning them roles that puts them in authority to legislate on God's behalf (without His express authority) or by making them mediums through which God dispenses his favours or hears our petitions. It is disobeying His commands as we have heard them through His prophets, particulary through the Prophet Muhammad (saws), who is the seal of all prophets.

The list of actions which take you out of belief/submission is quite comprehensive in Aalimah's post, and you can also search for 'nullifiers Islam' on this forum or in google.

Umm Layth,

I know you have your own forum and you are one of the two principle administrators there. That does not give you the right to make judgements on what standards we use for moderating here.

As for your contention that the consensus of a large block of believers concerning one man is sufficient excuse to call him a kaffer yourself, directly. Well, you do it if you want to However, let me ask you, what GOOD does it do for the ummah for you to label him such? Could you warn against what you perceive as his kufr without mentioning his name (Did Ibn Taymiyya mention any names in his fatwa above, for instance)? Are you sowing discord among Muslims by freely labelling anyone you please Kaffir if he doesn't happen to conform to your concept of Muslim? If you are, then YOUR ACTION is causing fitnah and setting Muslim against Muslim. It's opening the door for people to take the law into their own hands, pasisng sentence on a man, and possibly even encouraging unauthorised executioners to carry out the hudud.

Do you honestly expect me to even follow you a centimetre down the road that takes the administration of justice out of the hands of the Judges and Men of the Shariah and gives it to groups of taliban ul 'ilm all from differing manhajs.

And don't equate our authority on this forum with the authority of the ulema. Having virtually no training and simply English translations of the minimal information we have access to, we aim for the conservative and for the encompassing, rather than the extreme and devisive. So we placed a set of rules for all to see, and expect users to comply to the regulations.

Jazakillah khayr for your advice, and I hope this response has clarified our caution.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Assalam Alaykum

I would also like to see a clarification of a superior juristic opinion from the Salaf as-SAliheen which states that only a jurist can declare Takfeer and what qualification does this jurist need to possess in order to carry out this takfeer ?

I am very curious about this since, I personally do not subscribe to the takfeeri thought, for this I would like to see who is the suitable person to declare this takfeer in terms of rank in knowledge.

Barakallahu feek.

Waslaam
Assalam Alaykum

I dont mean to be a pest, but my above question is still pending.

Barakallahu feek

[jamila]

Assalam Alaykum

I dont mean to be a pest, but my above question is still pending.

Barakallahu feek
Well, I can't actually put my hands on it. I only know what my hubby told me Sheikh Fawzan said at one of his nightly talks after Magrib. Also the general information one learns among students of knowledge while learning the deen.

Perhaps YOu can produce one fatwa naming a definitive individual a Kaffer, rather than fatwas that say such and such type people are kaffirs.

I'd be interested to see one.

The nearest I've seen on this forum is on the situation in Iraq, where it is implied Saddam is apostate (in fact, they call him 'taghout', not kaffer or apostate), and the Bathists are called 'his disbelieving party'.

And your role here isn't to try and challenge me or the moderators in doing their job. My explanation for my actions is quite clear.

So why am I answering you? To please the gallery? I believe it is to show that your 'challenge' isn't worth the time it would take to research to find the answer which we both know to be true. At least, I expect you to know the answer. You seem far better educated in the deen than little me - and AbuM thinks highly of you.

Jamila

[Salman Al-Farsi]

eerrr are we disagreeing that Allawi is kaffir?

I am sorry, but isnt testification of 80% of Sunni population in iraq not enough, that we need some guy sitting in the palace of Saudi regime, or some guy who has had dinner with geroge Bush the night before or some guy or teh payroll of British govt dubbed Scholar to issue a fatwa to this regard?

While Allah(swT) says in Surah al-maidha 'Whosoever does not rule by whatever Allah has revelaed are the Kafiroon" ..Allah (swt) doesnt say find a scholar to declare this?

Are people trying to make a new version of Islam, the one with clergies and highter priests adn popes...does that remind you of medieval Britiain...lol We are being taken back to dark ages...yikes

Brother Salman sorry. :embar:

:outta:
Assalam Alaykum Sister Umm Layth

Sister, I think you are blowing this out of proportion, i agree with some of what you have stated in the first paragraph, as to the second paragraph what sister Jamila wrote is worth a read and includes elbaroation on this point.

However the argument of 80% Sunni agreeing, is not a legislative argument, since the jumhur itself is not a valid source of Shariah, niether is jumhur or Ijma al-Ulema from the current scholars, since for it to be a legislation or hukm it has to be based on the qati' usul al Shariah. This is the case, as people can have consensus on dalalah, if they have consensus on dalalah we cant obviously except that, so therefore whatever the majoirty agree will alwasy be dubious and will not mount to proof of evidence. Nonetheless, if your argument is the one of testification which needs to be accepted than there is a valid argument, but I cannot say I have heard a general takfeer, rather slogans have always been calling him, 'sell-out, stooge, criminal, puppet etc.' This itself does not mount to evidence for declaring takfeer, since the condition of Takfeer is Kufr buwa, which would be kufr dun kufr. In the case of Allawi we can only accuse him of Kufr in action, unless he openly declared disbelief in Allah Tala or disbelief in Isalmic shariah and its implementation. I can say if one was to look for this, it will not be a mission impossible. :)

Are people making a new version of Islam? Well sister, you should know this, Allah Tala said 'al-Ulema Warasatul Anbiyaa' Scholars are inheitors of Prophets, so we alwas need thier guidance and proof.

Waslaam

Your brother in Isalm

PS Sis not sure why you said sorry to me? :embar:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Well, I can't actually put my hands on it. I only know what my hubby told me Sheikh Fawzan said at one of his nightly talks after Magrib. Also the general information one learns among students of knowledge while learning the deen.

Perhaps YOu can produce one fatwa naming a definitive individual a Kaffer, rather than fatwas that say such and such type people are kaffirs.

I'd be interested to see one.

The nearest I've seen on this forum is on the situation in Iraq, where it is implied Saddam is apostate (in fact, they call him 'taghout', not kaffer or apostate), and the Bathists are called 'his disbelieving party'.

And your role here isn't to try and challenge me or the moderators in doing their job. My explanation for my actions is quite clear.

So why am I answering you? To please the gallery you are performing for? I believe it is to show that your 'challenge' isn't worth the time it would take to research to find the answer which we both know to be true. At least, I expect you to know the answer. You seem far better educated in the deen than little me - and AbuM thinks highly of you.

Jamila
Assalam Alaykum Sister

Jazakallahu khayr for the reply, and I do really appreciate your authority of moderator and have deep respect for every decision taken by the moderators. I am very sorry and regret that my post came accross as if I was questioning your decision, I can assure you I was not.

Sister, I am not performing for any gallery, niether am I part of any clique, since i dont believe in chronism :)

Even though dissatisfied with the answer given, I will not raise this again since I am very sorry you felt undermined, it was never my intention, I asked you this as my sister in Islam.

All knowledge is from Allah ta'la, He gives it to whoever He likes, and takes away from whoever He likes. The only thing we can do is to share this knowledge with fellow believers to spread as-salaam amongst us and to live in the shade of Islamic brotherhood.

Waslaam
Your brother in Islam

[jamila]

Assalam alaykum, brother Salman,

First of all I want to apologise for taking you the wrong way. I edited out my snide comment from my post even before you replied. May Allah forgive me and you forgive me and May He forgive you, and grant both of us protection from the fire.

Secondly, one of the scholars of this day and age I trust is Sheikh Fawzan. I have also respect for Sheikhs Uthaymeen, Bin Baz and Albani, May Allah grant them Mercy. Believe it or not, I also hold Sheikh Qaradawi in high esteem.

Can't say that they are the 'great jurists' of this day and age, though Sheikhs Bin Baz and Albani are both considered so by my teachers in Saudi Arabia, and Shaikh Uthaymeen and Fawzan only a smidgen below these two.

What qualifies a person to declare takfir on a person? I know I have read somewhere such a list of qualifications that make someone a competent judge. But I have also heard that it is best to avoid naming people in indictments against kufr. Naming a person and his manhaj as erronious and misleading should be done only if the benefit will outway the evil if he is not named. In such a situation, the jurist is obliged to warn the Muslim against following such a persons espoused opinion.

Sorry not to be able to come up with something better than these generalizations off the top of my head at such short notice. When I have some time I'll try and search for the actual words describing (or correcting) what I said above.

[Umm Layth]

Stanley, the difference between a Muslim and a Kaffir, or even a Mushrik (subset of Kaffir) is not their belief (or lack thereof) in the Creator.

Disbelief consists of denying that the Creator is worthy of submitting oneself to. It is denying that the Creator alone is worthy of worship, and that we are created to worship Him. It is denial that we are dependent on Him second by second, breath by breath, and so is everything in His creation. It is attributing to others a share in the worship we owe Him, either by assigning them roles that puts them in authority to legislate on God's behalf (without His express authority) or by making them mediums through which God dispenses his favours or hears our petitions. It is disobeying His commands as we have heard them through His prophets, particulary through the Prophet Muhammad (saws), who is the seal of all prophets.

The list of actions which take you out of belief/submission is quite comprehensive in Aalimah's post, and you can also search for 'nullifiers Islam' on this forum or in google.

Umm Layth,

I know you have your own forum and you are one of the two principle administrators there. That does not give you the right to make judgements on what standards we use for moderating here.

As for your contention that the consensus of a large block of believers concerning one man is sufficient excuse to call him a kaffer yourself, directly. Well, you do it if you want to However, let me ask you, what GOOD does it do for the ummah for you to label him such? Could you warn against what you perceive as his kufr without mentioning his name (Did Ibn Taymiyya mention any names in his fatwa above, for instance)? Are you sowing discord among Muslims by freely labelling anyone you please Kaffir if he doesn't happen to conform to your concept of Muslim? If you are, then YOUR ACTION is causing fitnah and setting Muslim against Muslim. It's opening the door for people to take the law (http://69.42.87.196/cgi-bin/v40/ezlclk.fcgi?id=7037) into their own hands, pasisng sentence on a man, and possibly even encouraging unauthorised executioners to carry out the hudud.

Do you honestly expect me to even follow you a centimetre down the road that takes the administration of justice out of the hands of the Judges and Men of the Shariah and gives it to groups of taliban ul 'ilm all from differing manhajs.

And don't equate our authority on this forum with the authority of the ulema. Having virtually no training and simply English translations of the minimal information we have access to, we aim for the conservative and for the encompassing, rather than the extreme and devisive. So we placed a set of rules for all to see, and expect users to comply to the regulations.

Jazakillah khayr for your advice, and I hope this response has clarified our caution.
Jamila, why are you so judgemental??? you dont even know me. And what are you talking about? Which forum? lol.. I dont follow salafi manhaj or whatever you are implying. For your information I am an ummah loyalist and have been for two years. Oh yeah :rolleyes: I do own a forum, but its nothing to do with islam, its do with 'acoustics and mechanics'. I am sure you wont find that a threat to your admin :D

So mate, if I was you, I d get some fresh air and get off the hight horse of power, you know what they say about power. ;)

And honey, its not a quesiton of what good it does, its called following the command of Allah (swt), where He obliged us to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Good means all the good, and evil is all the evils. I bring to your intention that Bin Baz, uthaymeen, Al-Bani, ibn taymiyah have all passed away, unfortuntly they did not live to see mr Allawi to do takfeer on him. As for Fawzan, without being disrespectful, he couldnt see kufr even if you put it in front of him in a plate. He is on saudi payroll, he will never say anything which goes against the interest of the saudi regime and their American masters.

So its just difference of opinion, you do taqleed with Fawzan who says you need scholar, and i have adopted the takfeer from the Ulema who dont sit in an office issuing fatwas, they are proof of thier sincerity, they speak the huqq in front of tyrant ruler, in prisons, in battlefields, and active amongs the Muslims.

As a moderator you might have the right to ban people, but you dont have the right to adopt rule of Islam and impose it on others, you are not ameerul momineen, only he has to right to adopt rules.

You dont need scholar to tell you have to pray five times, and you dont need scholar to tell you Riba is haraam, thought Qaradhawi would argue Riba is halal in some places (how can you trust people like that???)....so its our opinion that you dont need scholars to tell you when someone has done kufr.
So your taqleed only applies to you, not others, so dont impose.

Anyway, I am stressing out for no reason here. argggh :eek2:

[Umm Layth]

Assalam Alaykum Sister Umm Layth

Sister, I think you are blowing this out of proportion, i agree with some of what you have stated in the first paragraph, as to the second paragraph what sister Jamila wrote is worth a read and includes elbaroation on this point.

However the argument of 80% Sunni agreeing, is not a legislative argument, since the jumhur itself is not a valid source of Shariah, niether is jumhur or Ijma al-Ulema from the current scholars, since for it to be a legislation or hukm it has to be based on the qati' usul al Shariah. This is the case, as people can have consensus on dalalah, if they have consensus on dalalah we cant obviously except that, so therefore whatever the majoirty agree will alwasy be dubious and will not mount to proof of evidence. Nonetheless, if your argument is the one of testification which needs to be accepted than there is a valid argument, but I cannot say I have heard a general takfeer, rather slogans have always been calling him, 'sell-out, stooge, criminal, puppet etc.' This itself does not mount to evidence for declaring takfeer, since the condition of Takfeer is Kufr buwa, which would be kufr dun kufr. In the case of Allawi we can only accuse him of Kufr in action, unless he openly declared disbelief in Allah Tala or disbelief in Isalmic shariah and its implementation. I can say if one was to look for this, it will not be a mission impossible. :)

Are people making a new version of Islam? Well sister, you should know this, Allah Tala said 'al-Ulema Warasatul Anbiyaa' Scholars are inheitors of Prophets, so we alwas need thier guidance and proof.

Waslaam

Your brother in Isalm

PS Sis not sure why you said sorry to me? :embar:

Wa'alaikum as-Salaam brother Salman al-Farsi

Shukran for the post, very enlightening. Mashalah you have a nice way of putting things, the knowledge shines out. I can't disagree with what you have said. But i mentioned 80% not to denote it makes some sort of jumhur but as testification to the open kufr Allawi has committed.

The guy had a choice to be Musa or firown, and he chose to be firown. Do we have to give him a gold medal for that? yes, the Ahle Sunnah of Iraq would lynch him to death if they ever got hold of him, cuz he deserves it along with all the other rulers. Thats a fact.

[Mary Carol]

I know you have your own forum and you are one of the two principle administrators there.

Mashallah.

Are we all invited to join?

[Umm Layth]

Mashallah.

Are we all invited to join?

errr.. I think that was an allegation towards me :D.. hay if you know anything about acoustics and mechanics... more than welcome to join. But there is a vetting process, and its not a Musilm forum, but I am a co-owner :)

[jamila]

An interesting read (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_RE/ch1pre.htm)

and

another interesting read (http://www.islamistwatch.org/texts/hamza/ruling/ruling.html)

I don't necessarily agree with all the details of either. In fact, I don't actively espouse either position - but they do represent solid opinion.

[Umm Layth]

An interesting read (http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_RE/ch1pre.htm)

and

another interesting read (http://www.islamistwatch.org/texts/hamza/ruling/ruling.html)

I don't necessarily agree with all the details of either. In fact, I don't actively espouse either position - but they do represent solid opinion.

Ok.. still no explaination of which forum am I suppose to be principle adminstrator of, if its 'acoustics and mechanics forum' than how on earth is that even relavent to this discussion?


dont avoid the subject.

you made an accusation, now either apologise for falsly accusing another Muslim or I can only advice you to fear Allah and refrain from judging other Muslim..while you yourself preach that we do not have the right to judge poeple. In my books this is called Nifaaq.

Waslaam

[jamila]

Sorry, sis.

actually, I wrote a long and responsive post to your previous post,, but Sajid decided to close the forum just as I was posting the reply and I lost it all.

I was under the impression you were umm Layth from Clear Guidance who opened a forum with her husband just about the time she gave birth to Layth. Looks like I made a mistake. I was not deliberately 'falsly accusing another Muslim', but I certainly apologise for mistaking the forum you are part owner of. The other Umm layth was very able in knowledge and administrative matters, and I thought you were too. I just took exception to you telling me what my job is and what I should accept and not accept from posters. Especially after referring you to the Forum regulations.

I sometimes wonder which of us has the highest horse to fall off :)

Jamila

What is the big deal with you?

[Umm Layth]

Sorry, sis.

actually, I wrote a long and responsive post to your previous post,, but Sajid decided to close the forum just as I was posting the reply and I lost it all.

I was under the impression you were umm Layth from Clear Guidance who opened a forum with her husband just about the time she gave birth to Layth. Looks like I made a mistake. I was not deliberately 'falsly accusing another Muslim', but I certainly apologise for mistaking the forum you are part owner of. The other Umm layth was very able in knowledge and administrative matters, and I thought you were too. I just took exception to you telling me what my job is and what I should accept and not accept from posters. Especially after referring you to the Forum regulations.

I sometimes wonder which of us has the highest horse to fall off :)

Jamila

What is the big deal with you?

You are asking me whats the deal? I think you should ask urself, as a moderator its ur responsibility to to double check what you are saying and and who u associating to who. I dont know who this other umm layth is, and what did u think there is only one umm layth in the world?

Anyway take it easy :)

waslam

[jamila]

Anyway take it easy :)

waslam
Walaykum :)