Will all Christians go to hell?

[Martini]

Yes


3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.


Or No?


2:62 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.


5:62 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

[Arsalan]

Those who associate partners with Allah, in truth commit major Shirk, and Shirk is unforgiveable, and the end result of this is Hell, as i understand it.

The mission of the Propphets and Messengers of Allah swt , from the time of Adam ( on whom be peace) was to invite people to Pure Monothesism, and to al that is good, and away from all that is evil. Shirk which is also EVIL and a major sin, is to *worship* other then Allah in his Lordship, Attribtues and Essence.

2.62 was aborgated by the verses u have quoted first. Furthermore one needs to read the commentry on these Verses to get a fuller understanding of them God Willing.

"To beleive in Allah and the Last day", is to beleive in his LAst messenger and Prophet , Mohammad ( peace and blessings be upon him ), and the final LAW he has brought.

[AbuMubarak]

was it abrogated akhi, or just clarified?

2:62 was referring to what happens to those who came before the Prophet, whereas the latter ayaat were referring to islam being completed, and the message from God to mankind was sealed with the advent and departure of the Prophet, for he was sent as a mercy to all of mankind

[Martini]

Originally posted by Abumabarak
2:62 was referring to what happens to those who came before the Prophet
No, it wasn't. Those who are Jews and Christians and Sabeans, not those who were Jews and Christians and Sabeans. Whoever believethin Allah and doeth right, not whoever hath believeth in Allah and hath done right.

and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.Do you want me to believe God is talking to the dead here?

[Muslimah006]

W'salam,

Excuse me if I'm wrong but I would believe that in



62 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.


5:62 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.



Is in reference to the Jews who followed Judaism in its pure form and Christianity in its pure form, i.e. believing in One God, are being referred to here. Rather than;



3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.



** Islam= surrender onto Allah. Muslims believe that Jesus(pbuh) and Moses(pbuh) and their true and pure followers were "Muslims" or those who submitted(surrender) themselves unto Allah. Therefore whatever contradiction you are implying here is not correct.



5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribed partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.



These are the "Christians" in their polytheistic form, the ones that believe in the three Gods, of the Father,the son and the Holy Spirit.





On the point of Allah sending a verse down to dead people, perhaps it was not for the dead but the living they left behind. What if someone's close relative passed away before the advent of Islam, and they needed confirmation that since they had only believed in the 1 and Only Allah, they would enter Jannah even if they were not technically "Muslims".

..."Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."

It is not unusual to find parts in the Quran were Allah is referring to what people will say in the future or had said in the past.



All true knowledge lies with Allah (swt) alone.

Peace

[Martini]

Originally posted by Muslimah006
W'salam,

Excuse me if I'm wrong but I would believe that in



62 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.


5:62 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.



Is in reference to the Jews who followed Judaism in its pure form and Christianity in its pure form, i.e. believing in One God, are being referred to here. Rather than;



3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.


So, you will simply wiggle out of this one by saying God must have meant certain kinds of Christians in these parts and other kinds of Christians in these other parts? Wouldn't God specify this. Read again:

2:62 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right
Wouldn't God specify that this doesn't include Christians who believe in the trinity? Isn't one of the central beliefs in Christianity that you do believe in the trinity?

[Ali_Khan]

problem is, these days so called christians like americans and british dont really follow christianity, they follow a sort of cult where they worship Jesus instead of God and in his name murder as many people as they can. I doubt thats going to get them into paradise.

[Abdul-Curim]

martini , you have an objective mind , read the quran with an open mind .

you are trying to seek verses in the quran which you think are contradicting and incorrect .

the quran is talking about the true believers in allah and his messengers and revelations amongst the people of the book , and not the corrupted forms of the their faiths .

and that is what is mentioned in those verses you quoted , and it is extremely difficult for anybody to blindly read the quranic translation without commentaries and imagine that one knows all about the quran .

do you know atleast how the quran was revealed , in what manner ?

[faqir]

Fate of Non Muslims in the Afterlife??

This was dealt with in the article from http://www.masud.co.uk (http://www.masud.co.uk/), a refutation of the idea of the 'universal validity of all religions,':




5. The Fate of Non-Muslims in the Afterlife


The reason that contemporary writers affected by the writings of Gunon and Schuon, such as Chittick and Gai Eaton (or such as Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt etc.), seem to want the universal validity of all religions at any price, even to the extent of attributing it to masters like Muhyiddin ibn al-`Arabi ("in principle") or Emir `Abd al-Qadir ("he protected the Christians against massacre by taking them into his own home because he understood" [as if other scholars considered massacring them halal]) would seem to be the emotive impalatability of followers of other religions going to hell. Where is the mercy? Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam?





This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities:


(1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Koran 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.

The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa.






(2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Koran 4:48).




In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity.

It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.





.

[Abdul-Curim]

For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination. (67:6)

When they are cast therein, they will hear the (terrible) drawing in of its breath even as it blazes forth, (67:7)

Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?" ( 67:8)

They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'Allah never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'" (67:9)

They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" (67:10)



those who have not recieved the message , through a messenger directly , or through the media or any other source , Allah is all-knowing all wise .

some scholars say such people would be forgiven by Allah (swt) on the day of judgement .

the non-muslims of this forum have got the message of Allah , during their stay here .

[History]

Currim writes: the non-muslims of this forum have got the message of Allah , during their stay here .Well, currim,
The message you seem to profess, imho, is one of hatred--at least for Jews, whom you have described as "this evil lot" and "the enemies of humanity" and "enemies of Allah," etc.

If this is "the message" you propose, then it is not from Allah, imho.
And if you state such injustice and hatred is the message of Islam ("Peace"), then I must disagree and (thankfully) continue to be a Jew under G-d, Blessed be His Name.

In Judaism, as I have previously shared, it is not what you profess to believe that matters to G-d/Allah, but what you do, how you treat others ethically, and how you live your live righteously under Him.

Love your fellow as yourself--Vayikrah 19:18

The righteous among ALL the nations of the earth have a share in the world to come.
--Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a

Respectfully,
History the happy Jew >smile<

[Abdul-Curim]

history , i have not expressed any hatred towards jews in general but only those who have forcefully occupied the land of the palestinians and continue to kill them everyday but never let it be shown on the international media but project only the blowing up of buses full of jews .

[History]

currim,
99% of World Jewry understand and support Israel as the Jewish homeland.
Thus your statements, such as:
"any jew who supports the zionist entity is an enemy of islam and an enemy to humanity ."
--http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49117is "generalized" and hatred.

Respectfully,
History

[Abdul-Curim]

history , neither i nor any muslim is against your homeland for jews anywhere except the present location which is nothing but a forceful occupation of someone else's land who happens to be my brothers in faith .

and the zionist continue with their genocide against my brethren , and the joke is you accuse me of generalising and hatred .

[jamila]

No, it wasn't. Those who are Jews and Christians and Sabeans, not those who were Jews and Christians and Sabeans. Whoever believethin Allah and doeth right, not whoever hath believeth in Allah and hath done right.

Do you want me to believe God is talking to the dead here?Present perfect.
Including those in existance at the time of the prophet (and after him to a certain point) and all those before him.

He said, "By Him in Whose hand Muhammad's soul is, there is none amongst the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies without believing in the message with which i have been sent, but he will be amongst the dwellers of the Fire."
Sahih Muslim

[History]

Dear currim,
Thank you for your post.
history , neither i nor any muslim is against your homeland for jews anywhere except the present location Except the "present location" is the "homeland for Jews,"
This is historical fact and also thus designated by the holy writings of all 3 faiths (including the Quran).
I hope a negotiated Palestinian State in the Territories, thus sharing the land, will suffice for you and your "brothers in faith." If not, there will be only continued suffering.

Your language calling Jews/Israelis/Zionists "the enemies of Islam" and "the enemies of humanity" is Jew-hatred (antisemitism), by definition.

It's like "the nose on your face," you may not see it but it is apparent to those around you.

Respectfully,
History

[Al-Nasser]

W'salam,

Excuse me if I'm wrong but I would believe that in



62 Those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.


5:62 Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.



Is in reference to the Jews who followed Judaism in its pure form and Christianity in its pure form, i.e. believing in One God, are being referred to here. Rather than;



3:85Whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.



** Islam= surrender onto Allah. Muslims believe that Jesus(pbuh) and Moses(pbuh) and their true and pure followers were "Muslims" or those who submitted(surrender) themselves unto Allah. Therefore whatever contradiction you are implying here is not correct.



5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. ... Lo! whoso ascribed partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.



These are the "Christians" in their polytheistic form, the ones that believe in the three Gods, of the Father,the son and the Holy Spirit.





On the point of Allah sending a verse down to dead people, perhaps it was not for the dead but the living they left behind. What if someone's close relative passed away before the advent of Islam, and they needed confirmation that since they had only believed in the 1 and Only Allah, they would enter Jannah even if they were not technically "Muslims".

..."Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."

It is not unusual to find parts in the Quran were Allah is referring to what people will say in the future or had said in the past.



All true knowledge lies with Allah (swt) alone.

Peace
Bingo!!

and also there is something

Cursed be the makers of the pit,
Of the fire (kept burning) with fuel,
When they sat by it,
And they were witnesses of what they did with the believers.
And they did not take vengeance on them for aught except that they believed in Allah, the Mighty, the Praised,
085.004-008

the believers in this story from Quran were christians martyred in Yemen by Pagans in the pre Islamic era

[Martini]

the quran is talking about the true believers in allah and his messengers and revelations amongst the people of the book , and not the corrupted forms of the their faiths .But how can a Christian not believe in a corrupted form of the muslim faith? That's what makes them Christians and not muslim.

[reachin'out]

But how can a Christian not believe in a corrupted form of the muslim faith? That's what makes them Christians and not muslim.I can't quite grasp the meaning of the question. Explanation necessary, please.

[Sultan]

I can't quite grasp the meaning of the question. Explanation necessary, please.He means christians don't convert to Islam.

And since you and I are reverts, that's another blow to another of his statements.

I think I have sussed him out.

He is not an ex-muslim. He has no real understanding of the Quran, or arabic. Soon as he put a link to the answering-islam website, I knew he was just another fraud. it's funny how 'ex-muslims' always post the same tired rubbish from that site.

[Abdul-Curim]

answering-islam is a christian site which is slanderous about islam , http://answering-christianity.com has refuted all the garbage the xian site claims .

[History]

Is, then, http://answering-christianity.com (http://answering-christianity.com/) "slanderous about" Christianity?

Respectfully,
History

[Hasan2004]

Christianity is self-slanderous.

History, Christians(Minim) slander G-d everyday!

If you continue to defend their ideas I am telling an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi on you. I'm telling.

Hasan

P.S. , to answer the question....Yes, they are going to Hell(fire)!


Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 438:

Narrated Anas:

A young Jewish boy used to serve the Prophet and he became sick. So the Prophet went to visit him. He sat near his head and asked him to embrace Islam. The boy looked at his father, who was sitting there; the latter told him to obey Abu-l-Qasim and the boy embraced Islam. The Prophet came out saying: "Praises be to Allah Who saved the boy from the Hell-fire."

[sfvalley]

Christianity is self-slanderous.

History, Christians(Minim) slander G-d everyday!

If you continue to defend their ideas I am telling an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi on you. I'm telling.

Hasan

P.S. , to answer the question....Yes, they are going to Hell(fire)!


Sahih Bukhari:
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 438:

Narrated Anas:

A young Jewish boy used to serve the Prophet and he became sick. So the Prophet went to visit him. He sat near his head and asked him to embrace Islam. The boy looked at his father, who was sitting there; the latter told him to obey Abu-l-Qasim and the boy embraced Islam. The Prophet came out saying: "Praises be to Allah Who saved the boy from the Hell-fire."
coming from someone who believes that UFO technology will save the muslim world, then I had better listen.

[Moayidd]

martini , you have an objective mind , read the quran with an open mind .

you are trying to seek verses in the quran which you think are contradicting and incorrect .

the quran is talking about the true believers in allah and his messengers and revelations amongst the people of the book , and not the corrupted forms of the their faiths .

and that is what is mentioned in those verses you quoted , and it is extremely difficult for anybody to blindly read the quranic translation without commentaries and imagine that one knows all about the quran .

do you know atleast how the quran was revealed , in what manner ?
He says he is only seeking the TRUTH.
That is where the contradiction is if you ask me.
.
.
.
The verse he is struggling with is refering to True christians, and true Jews, Dead and Alive who are/were faithful to the original message . Is there a problem with knowing wether the dead are going to heaven or hell ? Does it mean God is speaking to the dead in the Qur'an ? No, a truth seeker would see that God is telling US, which of the living (so to speak) are amongst the good and which amongst the dead were also amongst the good.
By the way, are the Sabians still alive as a group ?
It's very simple really.
.
.
.
.
.

[History]

Dear Hasan,
It is all a matter of perspective.

What Muslims claim as slander by Christians, Christians can with as much validity claim as slander by Muslims.

"mote-beam" and "casting first stone" and all that.

Imho, too much energy is wasted on the differences between our faiths and not what we all share--which is what really matters: belief in the One G-d, treating others as you wish to be treated, helping others, living ethically as G-d/Allah commands, etc.

[And this is just what my Orthodox Rabbi colleagues would tell you]

Respectfully,
History

[History]

Moayidd posts:
The verse he is struggling with is refering to True christians, and true Jews, Dead and Alive who are/were faithful to the original message . Actually, it says nothing about "true" Christians and Jews. This is your addition.
And do you not understand it is the peak of arrogance for Muslims to decide who are "true" Christians and "true" Jews?
Can Christians and Jews decide who are "true" Muslims?

It is also hubris, as well as an obvious conceitful contrivance, that Muslims can state the faith and Holy writings of Christians and Jews are not the "original message." It is also counter-intuitive that a later (much much later message) can claim to be the "original" one. It is illogical. But I respect you disagree.

Respectfully,
History

[Hasan2004]

History,

well explain this:.......
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Washington Report pm Middle East Affairs
JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2001, Pages 71-72
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101071.html
By Allan C. Brownfeld

"... The Halakhic instrument promoted by ultra-Orthodox rabbis, both in Israel and the U.S., that ultimately convinced Yigal Amir that he should kill Yitzhak Rabin was the ancient Jewish doctrine of zealotry. The doctrine maintains that under the most extreme circumstances, a God-loving Jew can kill another person without asking permission.

"The doctrine of zealotry goes back to the first biblical Jewish zealot-Pinchas Ben-Eleazar. As told in the Bible, Pinchas, acting in awe of God, killed Zimri, who had prostituted in public with a Midianite girl. Pinchas's problem was that the killing was totally unauthorized and he acted out of an uncontrollable momentary drive. And yet, in spite of the severity of the act, which was denounced, according to the Talmud, by the people's elders, it was forgiven by God. The reason given was that Pinchas "was zealous for my sake among them." God instantly terminated a plague that had already killed 20,000 Jews.

Pinchas' entire line of ancestors were made priests of Israel. The prophet Elijah is also described in the Bible as a zealot who killed in his wrath 400 priests of Baal, a Canaanite god. Yigal Amir convinced himself that in killing Rabin he was acting in the best tradition of Jewish zealotry.

"For the ultra-Orthodox, both in Israel and the U.S., a form of "messianic Zionism," which makes control over the biblical Land of Israel a religious mandate, has been growing. In his book, 'Terror in the Mind of God: the Global Rise of Religious Violence' , Professor Mark Juergensmayer notes that Jewish activists "have been convinced that their violent acts have been authorized as weapons in a divine warfare sanctioned by God. Dr. Baruch Goldstein's massacre at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron in 1994 was described as a military act. One of his supporters explained, 'It goes back to biblical times,' indicating that the present-day Arabs are simply the modern descendants of the enemies of Israel described in the Bible for whom God has unleashed wars of revenge ..."

[Hasan2004]

History,

Yes, we should all concentrate on the "positive" but at the same time we are COMPETING for minds and souls. "Competing" is really relative since we are at the same time destined.

There is a reason for all these different types of religions and beliefs.

007.035
YUSUFALI: O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
PICKTHAL: O Children of Adam! When messengers of your own come unto you who narrate unto you My revelations, then whosoever refraineth from evil and amendeth - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.
SHAKIR: O children of Adam! if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My communications, then whoever shall guard (against evil) and act aright-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

007.036
YUSUFALI: But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever).
PICKTHAL: But they who deny Our revelations and scorn them - each are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.
SHAKIR: And (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily-- these are the inmates of the fire they shall abide in it.

007.037
YUSUFALI: Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees): until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say: "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides Allah?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected Allah.
PICKTHAL: Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah or denieth Our tokens. (For such) their appointed portion of the Book (of destiny) reacheth them till, when Our messengers come to gather them, they say: Where (now) is that to which ye cried beside Allah? They say: They have departed from us. And they testify against themselves that they were disbelievers.
SHAKIR: Who is then more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah or rejects His communications? (As for) those, their portion of the Book shall reach them, until when Our messengers come to them causing them to die, they shall say: Where is that which you used to call upon besides Allah? They would say: They are gone away from us; and they shall bear witness against themselves that they were unbelievers

007.038
YUSUFALI: He will say: "Enter ye in the company of the peoples who passed away before you - men and jinns, - into the Fire." Every time a new people enters, it curses its sister-people (that went before), until they follow each other, all into the Fire. Saith the last about the first: "Our Lord! it is these that misled us: so give them a double penalty in the Fire." He will say: "Doubled for all" : but this ye do not understand.
PICKTHAL: He saith: Enter into the Fire among nations of the jinn and humankind who passed away before you. Every time a nation entereth, it curseth its sister (nation) till, when they have all been made to follow one another thither, the last of them saith unto the first of them: Our Lord! These led us astray, so give them double torment of the Fire. He saith: For each one there is double (torment), but ye know not.
SHAKIR: He will say: Enter into fire among the nations that have passed away before you from among jinn and men; whenever a nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until when they have all come up with one another into it; the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them: Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire. He will say: Every one shall have double but you do not know.

[AbuMubarak]

you can wiggle, duck, dogde, or whatever, bottom line, you have been reminded over and over again of how there is nothing worthy of worship, but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah

if every muslim on earth was a walking devil, that would not change that message

Well, currim,
The message you seem to profess, imho, is one of hatred--at least for Jews, whom you have described as "this evil lot" and "the enemies of humanity" and "enemies of Allah," etc.

If this is "the message" you propose, then it is not from Allah, imho.
And if you state such injustice and hatred is the message of Islam ("Peace"), then I must disagree and (thankfully) continue to be a Jew under G-d, Blessed be His Name.

In Judaism, as I have previously shared, it is not what you profess to believe that matters to G-d/Allah, but what you do, how you treat others ethically, and how you live your live righteously under Him.

Love your fellow as yourself--Vayikrah 19:18

The righteous among ALL the nations of the earth have a share in the world to come.
--Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a

Respectfully,
History the happy Jew >smile<

[History]

Dear Abu,

Only G-d matters.

No human being, not any Hebrew Prophet, not Jesus, not Mohammed should be in any fashion placed between G-d and any human being. They are all, relatively, inconsequential. They, like us, are all servants of G-d.
This is why it matters not whether one professes he/she is Jewish, Christian, or Muslim, etc.

It is how one acts, treats one fellow, and lives ethically as He desires that defines the true Believer.

Respectfully,
History

[Hasan2004]

sfvalley,

UFO technology will save the Muslim world???

Are you kidding!?

Technology does not save anything! It is the heart and belief of the people who use the technology for Good or Bad.

I was thinking any technology introduced may make the world good or bad. I am sure that if the Khailfah(Islamic State) returns applying Islam accordingly and are able to get that technology then it would do much good for everyone.

Hasan

[Abdul-Curim]

history , it is very obvious from your posts , what jews have been claiming over the centuries .

jews and gentiles are two different entities , what applies to gentiles doesnot apply to jews .

your prophets and our prophets both preached the message of the one god , but yet we are different .

now that is the highest form of racism !

[History]

Dear currim,

Thank you for your post.

history , it is very obvious from your posts , what jews have been claiming over the centuries .

jews and gentiles are two different entities , what applies to gentiles doesnot apply to jews .

your prophets and our prophets both preached the message of the one god , but yet we are different .

now that is the highest form of racism !
Do you know what a non sequiter is?

1) A Jew is not a gentile in belief system. True.
But in all other ways (i.e. our shared humanity) we are the same.
Judaism (Hebrew Scripture) teaches Jew and gentile are both human beings--actually siblings, equally made in G-d's image, and equally loved by Him. If you wish me to repost a sampling of the exhaustive Scriptural and Talmudic Teachings on this, just ask.

2) What applies to Jews but not to gentiles is the obligations of the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants. True.
A Jew is bound to keep G-d's 613 active mitzvot (Laws)
Both Jew and Gentile are bound by the obligations of the Noahide covenant (as we are all descendents of Noah). These are only 7 Laws, but they are universal:

Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.

For more on this see [http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/am/goyim.asp]

A Gentile who keeps the 7 Laws are deemed "righteous."
The obligations that must be kept for a Jew to achieve this is a bit more.

3) The three Abrahamic faiths believe in the One G-d and share belief in many of His ethical teachings for human behavior In this we are the same.
The "differences" of belief are inconsequential in comparison to what is really important under G-d/Allah: peace, justice, humility, respect, charity, and love.

Respectfully,
History

[Hasan2004]

History,

Are you willing to denounce the crimes of the founders of the Israeli state?

Do you believe what they have done, in massacring innocent Plaestinians, a crime and an immoral act?

How could you support the Israeli state which has violated the OATHS and the Talmudic injunction(s)?

I will present from your "tampered" Talmud atleast THREE things:

1. The Israeli state has no right to exist because of the violation the preconditions of the building of the TEMPLE.

2. Prophet Jesus(pbuh) is the Messiah because of the rule of the Romans! The Talmud will even has MICAH Chapter 5 as evidence.

3. DEUTERONOMY 18:18 is a reference to a NON-Jew in this evidence! Although, I have proven in another thread that DEUTERONOMY 18:18 is Prophet Muhammad :saw: Also, Paul(Saul) is wrong in his writtings in the New Testament to suggest that this is Jesus(pbuh) when clearly Jesus(pbuh) is a Jew and clearly he is not part of the "Brethren" suggested in this Talmudic evidence.

However, there are some errors in this TALMUDIC evidence pertaining to the prophecies of Prophet Daniel(pbuh) which have been fulfilled 100 to 60 years before the advent of Prophet Jesus(pbuh). As for the prophecies in ISAIAH those were allegorical in describing prophet Jesus(pbuh) either during his time or in the future when he is part of the Islamic State. I will highlight the parts I would want everyone to observe at the evidence I described earlier in this post above.....

Begin:

R. Johanan b. Turtha said: Why had Shiloh fallen? Two sins were committed there: adultery and sacrilege. Adultery, as it is written [1 Sam. ii. 22/1st Samuel 2:22]: "Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons were in the habit of doing unto all Israel; and how they would lie with the women that assembled at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation." And sacrilege, as it is written [ibid. 17]: "And the sin of the young men was very great before the Lord; for the men despised the offering of the Lord."

Why has the first Temple fallen? Because there were three things: idolatry, adultery, and bloodshed. Idolatry, as it is written [Jerem. xxviii. 20/JEREMIAH 28:20]: "For the bed shall be too short for a man to stretch himself out on it; and the covering too narrow to wrap himself in." And R. Johanan said: The bed is too narrow that there should be two, God and the idols. [Said R. Samuel b. Nahmoni: When R. Jonathan used to come to this verse, he used to cry, saying: That the Lord, of whom it is said [Ps. xxxiii. 7], "He gathereth together like heaps the waters of the sea," should feel too little space because of an idol.] Adultery, as it is written [Is. iii. 16]: "Forasmuch as the daughters of Zion are fraud, and walk with stretched forth necks and casting about their eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet." R. Itz'hak said to this: What is meant by tinkling? They used to fill the shoes with spices, and when a young man was by, they pressed the spices with the feet, to attract his attention.

Bloodshed, as it is written [2 Kings xxi. 16/2nd Kings 21:16]: "And also innocent blood did Manasseh shed in very great abundance."

But the second Temple(Destroyed in 69 or 70 AD), where the occupations were study of the Law, religious duties, and charity--why fell it? Because there was groundless enmity. 1 From this we can infer that unfounded hatred is equal to all the three sins together: idolatry, adultery, and bloodshed. In the time of the first Temple, although they were wicked, yet because they put their trust in the Holy One, blessed be He, as it is written [Micah iii. 11/MICAH 3:11]: "Her heads judge for bribes, her priests teach for reward, and her prophets divine for money: and yet they will lean upon the

p. 11

Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us? evil cannot come over us." For this, the Holy One, blessed be He, brought on them three chastisements, for their three sins; as it is written [ibid. 14]: "Therefore for your sake shall Zion be ploughed up as a field, and Jerusalem shall become ruinous heaps, and the mount of the house, forest-covered high places."

R. Johanan and R. Elazar both said: In the time of the first Temple, as their sin was laid bare, therefore the date of the end of their suffering has likewise been revealed; but in the time of the second Temple, when their sin was not stated clearly in writing, therefore the date of the end (of their suffering) was not revealed either.

R. Johanan said again: The nail of those of the time of the first Temple was preferable to the belly (whole body) of those of the time of the second Temple. Said Resh Lakish to him: On the contrary, the last were better. Although they were subject to a foreign government, nevertheless they studied and observed the Law. Rejoined R. Johanan: The fact of the Temple can prove it. The first obtained the Temple once more, and the last have it not yet. R. Elazar was asked Who were greater, the first or the second? He replied: Take the Temple as a sign.

Resh Lakish was bathing in the Jordan: Rabba bar bar Hana came to him, and shook hands with him. Resh Lakish said to him: God detests you Babylonians, as it is written [Solomon's Song viii. 9]: "If she be a wall, we will build upon her a palace of silver; and if she be a door, we will enclose her with the boards of cedar." That signifies thus If you were all strong as a wall, and went all with Ezra, you would have been like silver, which can never rot; but as you did not, you were like wooden doors, which are subject to decay.

It is possible that Resh Lakish spoke with Rabba bar bar Hana? If with R. Elazar, who was the principal man in Palestine, Resh Lakish did not speak; because it was a rule that, with whomsoever Resh Lakish spoke in the street, money could be given to him without witnesses. Should Resh Lakish then have spoken with Rabba bar bar Hana (who was an inferior man)? Says R. Papa: Substitute another person. Either it was Resh Lakish and Z'eri, or R. Elazar and Rabba bar bar Hana. When the last came to R. Johanan and related to him what Resh Lakish had told him, he said: This is not the reason. If all had come with Ezra, even then the Shekhina would not have dwelt in the second Temple, since it is written [Gen. ix. 27]: "May

p. 12

God enlarge the boundaries of Japheth, and may he dwell in the tents of Shem"; that signifies, that although God enlarges the boundaries of Japheth, his Shekhina can only dwell in the tents of Shem (i.e., because the second Temple was under the rule Of the Persians, who are of Japheth, the Shekhina could not dwell there, but only in Solomon's Temple, which was Shem's). And how is it known that the Persians are descendants of Japheth? Because it is written [Gen. X. 2]: "The sons of Japheth: Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Jabon, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Thirass"; and R. Joseph has taught, that Thirass is Persia.

R. Joshua b. Levi said in the name of Rabbi: A time will come, when those who have destroyed the second Temple will fall into the hands of the Persians.(Who are NOW MUSLIMS!!!!!!!!!!) As it is written [Jerem. xlix. 20/JEREMIAH 49:20]: "Therefore hear the counsel of the Lord, that he hath resolved against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath devised against the inhabitants of Theman. Surely the least of the flocks shall drag them away: surely he will devastate their habitation."(This prophecy has already occurred after the fall of the first Temple by the Babylonians,read ISAIAH which relevant to this) Rabba b. Ula opposed: How is it known that by the least of the flocks Persia is meant? Because it is written [Dan. viii. 20/DANIEL 8:20]: "The ram that thou hast seen, him with the two horns, signifies the kings of Media and Persia?"(This also has already occured 100 to 60 years before the birth of Jesus(pbuh) Perhaps Javan (the Greeks) are meant? As it is written [ibid. 21]: "And the shaggy he-goat is the king of Javan (Greece)." When R. Habiba b. Surmika went up to Palestine, he told to a scholar the objection of Rabba b. Ula. He said to him: A man who cannot explain the verses of the Bible should dare oppose Rabbi? What is meant by "the least of the flock"? the youngest of the brothers (that is, Thirass), and R. Joseph has said, Thirass is Persia.

Rabba bar bar Hana in the name of R. Johanan, quoting R. Jehudah b. Ilai, said: Those who have destroyed the second Temple will fall into the power of Persia. And this is an a fortiori reasoning: If the children of Shem, who built the first Temple, and the Chaldeans, who destroyed it, fell into the hands of the Persians, how much more the destroyers of the second Temple, which the Persians themselves have built(?????Ofcourse,this could just be stating that the responsibility was given to Zerubbabel,Nehemiah and Ezra(peace be upon them)?????), must fall into the power of the Persians. Rabh, however, said: On the contrary, it will come that Persia will succumb under those who have destroyed the Temple.(BOTH interpretations were wrong) Said R. Kahana and R. Assi to Rabh: Is it right that those who had built the Temple should fall under the dominion of those who have destroyed it? He answered: Yea, such is the decree of the King. R. Jehudah also said in the name of Rabh: The Messiah, descended from

p. 13

David, will not arrive until Rome shall have dominated over the entire world nine months. As it is written [Micah v. 2/MICAH 5:2]: "Therefore he will give them up until the time that she who travaileth hath brought forth"; and the end of the verse is, "then shall the remnant of his brethren return with the children of Israel."

SOURCE: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t03/yom06.htm

END!

MY OBSERVATION:

1. DID everyone notice this:

the end of the verse is, "then shall the remnant of his brethren return with the children of Israel."

in King James Version it is MICAH 5:3 -

" Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel. "

- Brethren is used again! Just like what is stated in DEUTERONOMY 18:18 !!!!

" I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. "

NOW , WE ALL KNOW THAT THIS "Brethren" IS NOT AN ISREALI NOR A JEW but an ARAB or a NON-JEW !!!!!!!!

2. Prophet Jesus(pbuh) is clearly the MESSIAH !!!

3. Israel has no right to exist! Which has been proven above with evidence and correction! The conditions for them to exist has not been achieved because of the BLOODSHED of Palestinians!


Hasan

[Hasan2004]

Now let me add how the "Brethren" are NOT CHRISTIANS!!!

We go back to MICAH Chapter 5.....

MICAH 5:2-4

2 ¶ But thou, Bethlehem Eph'ratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel( The descendants of Ishmael with Islam and the descendants of Isaac under Islam ).
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1."Bethlehem" the birthplace of Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him)

2."Ruler in Israel" he is labeled as a fellow Israeli because he is the Messiah over them.

3. "then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel( The descendants of Ishmael with Islam and the descendants of Isaac under Islam or coming into Islam ).

The mention of "Brethren" here has prophecied automatically another NATION which is the ARABS. "Brethren" and "Children of Israel" are seperately noted in this verse!

WHY? WHY? WHY?

The Gospel of Matthew 21:43-46 -

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken(With JIHAD): but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 ¶ And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

HE WAS NEVER CRUCIFED! HE SAID ANOTHER NATION WILL REPLACE ...THE JEWISH NATION!!!!!

Who is this nation????

This nation is prophecied in the BOOK of JEREMIAH in connection with this passage!

The other nation derives from KEDAR ! Why is this relevant rather than connected with the other prophecy(In Jeremiah Chapter 49)?

Jeremiah Chapter 49 mentioning KEDAR already happened during the invasion of the Babylonians in the region!

The future prophecy is located in JEREMIAH Chapter 2 because of the mention of the ROMANS/GREEKS they are titled: "THE ISLES OF CHITTIM" !!! Here is the transition dictated to Jeremiah(pbuh) and this is why Jeremiah(pbuh) hid the 'Ark of the Covenant' from the Jews!

9 ¶ Wherefore I will yet plead with you, saith the LORD, and with your children's children will I plead.
10 For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.
11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people(The Israelites) have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the LORD.
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.(They lost the rights and NOW it is given the descendants of Ishmael(pbuh)).

VERSE 13 says it all!!!

GENESIS 25:12-18

12 ¶ Now these are the generations of Ish'ma-el, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:
13 and these are the names of the sons of Ish'ma-el, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ish'ma-el, Neba'joth; and Kedar, and Ad'beel, and Mibsam,
14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,
15 Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Ked'emah:
16 these are the sons of Ish'ma-el, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
17 And these are the years of the life of Ish'ma-el, a hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died, and was gathered unto his people.
18 And they dwelt from Hav'ilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.



KEDAR is related to Prophet Ishmael(peace be upon him)!!!


Hasan

[Mary Carol]

This ayat seems to have some revelance:

"That no soul shall bear another's burden."

~Al-Najm 53:38

[sfvalley]

History,

Are you willing to denounce the crimes of the founders of the Israeli state?

Do you believe what they have done, in massacring innocent Plaestinians, a crime and an immoral act?

How could you support the Israeli state which has violated the OATHS and the Talmudic injunction(s)?

I will present from your "tampered" Talmud atleast THREE things:

1.
Hasan
Why argue about other people's tampered documents? Why do you constantly have to be a total idiot? You sound much more intelligent (albeit still on a very low level) when you talk about UFO's. How many times do you want to start your arguement offending other peoples religion? I guess people who oppose you could get down to your level (although for most human being that would take a lot of effort) and disparage your holy scriptures, but then they would get banned. Sometime in the near future , GROW UP!!!! quit being a dork!!!

[Abdul-Curim]

sfvalley , we are not on a mission to interfere in other peoples religions or defame them , its the jews and the xians who have defamed and attributed lies to allah's noble prophets and we muslims would never sit quiet to such evil around us floruishing .

if you dont like , take a walk .

[Hasan2004]

:jkk: Currim.

He has still not give ONE intelligent counter-point.

Hasan

[Moayidd]

Moayidd posts:
Actually, it says nothing about "true" Christians and Jews. This is your addition.
And do you not understand it is the peak of arrogance for Muslims to decide who are "true" Christians and "true" Jews?
Can Christians and Jews decide who are "true" Muslims?

It is also hubris, as well as an obvious conceitful contrivance, that Muslims can state the faith and Holy writings of Christians and Jews are not the "original message." It is also counter-intuitive that a later (much much later message) can claim to be the "original" one. It is illogical. But I respect you disagree.

Respectfully,
History
And do you not understand it is the peak of arrogance for Muslims to decide who are "true" Christians and "true" Jews?
Can Christians and Jews decide who are "true" Muslims?
It isn't really arrogant to say that the original christians and original jews have to be the people following the original Torah and the Original Injeel.

The book of Esther in the Torah for example, was added later. This alone would indicate that the book it is in is not the original. Also, books have been written after the death of Moses and added to the Torah. Doesn't that make the current Torah not the original?
When was the current Torah written ? Wasn't it written by Ezra centuries after the older copy was burnt ?
The same applies to the Injeel of which we don't even have an original source.
Also, just remember, at least we call you people of the book of God with Valid Messengers/messages from God. What do you call us and our message/messenger? If you are looking for arrogance, here is where it is.


It is also counter-intuitive that a later (much much later message) can claim to be the "original" one. It is illogical. But I respect you disagree.
As you have said yourself before, they are all one message from one God with slight additions. Hence 'much later' doesn't apply. Infact, if anything, it just means an original that is free of the errors introduced with the passing of time and translation/memory mistakes.
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