Islam and mountains

[Martini]

Can any muslims here tell me What Allah is getting at?


The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:31, Middle Meccan,
``And We have set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should
shake with them...''

The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, Late Meccan,
``And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should
shake with you...''

Luqman 31:10, Late Meccan, ``He has created the heavens without
supports that you can see, and has cast onto the earth firm
mountains lest it should shake with you..''

The News (Al-Naba') 78:6-7, Early Meccan,
``Have We not made the earth an expanse, and the mountains as
stakes.''(``as those used to anchor a tent in the ground'' -
Bucaille p182.)

The Overwhelming (Al-Ghashiya) 88:17,19, Early Meccan,
``Do they (the unbelievers) not look...at the mountains, how they
have been pitched (like a tent)'' (Translation Bucaille p 181)

[Al-Nasser]

this topic is the play ground of Dr Zaghloul Al Najjar :D

and when i talk about Dr Zaghloul Al Najjar i don't talk about Islamic science Doctor but...

Dr Zaghloul Al-Najjar has a PhD from Wales University in geology, specialising in micropalaeontology. He has worked in a variety of Universities around the world and currently is a Professor at King Saud University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

here is an article by him and then back again to the mountains topic

Scientific Facts Revealed in the Qur'an

By Zaghlool El-Naggar, PhD



The Holy Qur'an is basically a book of guidance, revealed by the Creator to address areas that cannot be answered by the human intellect such as the essence of faith, the acts of worship, the moral code and the rules and regulations that govern the various transactions between human beings.

Besides this guidance, the glorious Qur'an refers to the cosmos, the earth and the heavens, as well as to many of their components, inhabitants and phenomena, in numerous verses that exceed 1000 in number. Such references come in the context of testifying to the unlimited might, knowledge and wisdom of the Creator who has brought this universe into being, and is capable of its annihilation and of its recreation.

Consequently, the Qur'anic cosmic verses are not meant to be pieces of scientific information, but as scientific knowledge that has been left for man to gain over a long span of time. This is simply due to the limitations of the human senses and the cumulative nature of the scientific knowledge. The illustrious Qur'an, being the word of the Creator is, hence, the absolute truth, therefore Qur'anic verses with cosmic reflections must convey a number of absolute facts about the universe. Of these verses, a large number speak of the "earth", which is mentioned 461 times throughout the Holy Qur'an to describe the whole planet, its outer rocky cover, or the soil section on top of that cover. Verses of geological interest amongst these amount to more than 110, and can be grouped into 11 categories as follows:

* One verse that instructs man to travel through the earth, make his own observations and use such surveillances to reflect on how creation was originated (29:20).

* A group of verses that refer to the shape of the earth (13:3; 15:19; 26:28; 39:5; 50:7; 55:17; 65:12; 67; 70:40, 41); its motions (21:33; 36:40; 27:88; 12:3; 91: 1-4; 92:1,; 10:67; 77:10, 11; 27:71-73; 2:27; 29:61; 31:29; 35:13; 57:6; 36:37; 2:164; 3:190; 10:6; 23:80; 55:5; 14:33) and its origin (21:30) where both the earth and the heavens are clearly described to have constituted (in their distant past) one entity (the initial singularity) before they split apart (Big Bang). This group also includes verses that emphasize the vastly distant positions of stars (56: 75, 76), the expanding nature of the universe (51:47), the smoky nature of the early sky (universe) (41:11, 12), the existence of the interstellar matter (20:6; 21:16; 25:59; 30:8; 32:4; 37:5; 38:10, 27, 66) and the concentric nature of both the heavens and the earth (the universe) (67:3); (71:15) and (65:12).

* One verse stating that iron was sent down to us, thus emphasizing the celestial (extraterrestrial) origin of iron in our planet (67:25).

* One verse that describes the deeply faulted nature of the earth (86:12).

* A group of verses that describe some of the most recently discovered oceanographic phenomena such as:

i) The superheated nature of the bottoms of certain seas and oceans - implying intensive submarine volcanic activity associated with sea-floor spreading.

ii) The complete separation of different bodies of water (fresh and saline, as well as saline water of different compositions) that do not mix completely or immediately due to the constant presence of impassable barriers in between (25:53; 55:19, 20).

iii) The multitude of darkness produced in the greatest depths of oceans by deep currents, topped by surface currents, topped by clouds (24:40).

* One verse that describes mountains as pegs or pickets (78:7), emphasizing their relatively small, above-ground elevations, compared to their much more deeply buried parts (roots), and their role in the fixation of continental masses as well as of the whole planet. This role is emphasized in ten other verses that also ascribe more functions to mountains such as their part in the process of precipitation of rain and in the formation of natural heads for running streams (27: 61; 31: 10; 50:7; 77: 27; 79: 32). In this group, the Qur'an asks human beings to contemplate on a number of observations in the universe including how mountains are made to stand up on the surface of the earth (88:19). Such speculation has led to the formulation of the concept of isostacy which is currently used to explain the rising of mountains (and of all other surface elevations) above their surroundings. In another verse of this group (35:27), the Qur'an describes mountains as being composed of white and red tracts of various shades of colours and of others that are black and intense in hue. This is in clear reference to both acidic mountains (which are dominantly granitic in composition, with overwhelming white and red colours of various shades) and basic to ultrabasic mountains (which are dominantly basaltic/ gabbroic in composition with black coloured ferromagnesian minerals). Each of these major primary rock groups has its specific chemical and mineralogical compositions as well as its specific temperature of separation from its mother magma. Their dominant colours are also reflected in their secondary and/or tertiary products of sedimentary and metamorphic rock, and hence, the importance of these three principal colours (white, red and black) in the classification of igneous rocks and of their derivatives.

* A group of verses that reflect on the earth's hydrosphere and atmosphere, which are both clearly stated to have been outgassed from within the earth (LXXIX: 20, 31), a fact that has only very recently been discovered. Other verses in this group comment on the protective nature of the atmosphere for life on earth ( 21:32 ; 86: 11), the absolute darkness of outer space ( 15: 14 , 15), the reduction of atmospheric pressure with elevation (6:125) and the glowing nature of the early nights of our planet before the formation of its protective atmospheric spheres ( 17:12 ).

* A group of verses that emphasize the thinness of the earth's crust (71:19), the constant levelling and degradation of the earth's surface and the gradual change in the geographic dimensions of continental masses, and even the contraction of the whole planet and the deformation of its surface ( 13:41 ; 21:44 ; 78:6).

* Verses emphasizing the fact that groundwater is generated from rain, thus reflecting on the hydro-geological cycle (14:22; 22:18), and others relating life on earth to water (21:30; 24:45) or reflecting on the possibility of classifying life forms (6:38).

* Verses emphasizing the fact that the process of creation took place in successive stages over tremendously long spans of time (41:2-12; 22:47 ; 32:5).

* Two verses that describe the end of our planet and of the whole universe by reversing the process of its creation after which the eternal universe will be created ( 14:48 ).

Such knowledge was not available before the turn of the present century, and most of it has just started to be understood through the painstaking analysis of massive amounts of scientific observation. The Qur'anic precedence with such precise and comprehensive knowledge points to only one facet of the multifarious, miraculous nature of this Glorious Book, being the last Divine message, and the only one that has been kept intact with exactly the same language of revelation word for word and letter for letter for more than 14 centuries.

From the above mentioned discussion it is obvious that Qur'anic verses with geological notions exceed 110 in number and would need voluminous texts to explain. Consequently, the present paper concentrates on only a few of these verses which represent established facts and concepts in the area of Earth Sciences and are only given as examples of the miraculous nature of the Holy Qur'an.

[Al-Nasser]

by Dr Zaghloul Al Najjar

Mountains in the Qur’an

Another striking example in the Qur’an relates to mountains. The Qur’an speaks about mountains in 49 different verses. In one of these verses the Qur’an describes mountains as pegs or pickets. “And the mountains as pegs (awtaadaa) (78:7). If we take any scientific or linguistic dictionary of today and look for the meaning of mountain, we will find that scientists define mountains as high elevations on the surface of our planet.

Elevations that exceed 610 m in height are called mountains and anything below this is regarded as a hill. However, in many of the American references, elevations above 300 meters are considered mountains. The Qur’an that was revealed more than 14 centuries ago describes mountains as pegs or pickets. If we look at a tent’s peg, we find that most of its length, is buried in the ground, its smallest part crops out on the surface of the ground and its function is fixation.

Scientists have now come to realize that mountains are not just surface elevation into the ground, and these are called mountain roots. Mountain roots were never known to scientists before the turn of this century and they were highly debated until recently. A peak like Mount Everest, which is almost 9 km above the ground’s surface, has a root that develops for more than 125 km inside the Earth’s outer rocky layer.

Just as the peg or picket’s function is mainly to hold the tent solidly to the ground, so too is the exact same role of mountains. We have come to know that the outer rocky layer of the Earth is fractured by faults into plates that float on molten magma. With the earth’s rotation around its own axis, these floating plates would have been rapidly moving had it not been for the stabilizing influence of mountains. No soil could have accumulated, no water could have been stored in the soil, no plant could have germinated, no road constructed, no house could have been built, and life would have been impossible on our planet. For this reason Allah showered his bounties on man by fixing the earth with mountains. Mountains act like pegs or pickets that hold the continental masses down and stops them moving. Muhammad (peace be upon him) is quoted to have said in an authentic hadith that when Allah created the earth it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it with mountains

[Al-Nasser]

the same article above can be found here (http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_p1_04.php) with illustrated description

[Al-Nasser]

Likewise the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains as stabilizers for the earth has just begun to be understood in the framework of plate tectonics since the late 1960's (Geological Concept of Mountains p. 5).

Plate tectonics (http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/november01_index.php?l=1)

Geology 100: Mountains help stabilize crust (http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm)

the above are two posts by brothers Sultan (member.php?u=21) and Abu Sabr (member.php?u=5118) in The Quran's magnificent scientific data on mountains, a must read! (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35916&page=1&pp=20)

[Uthman]

Yes, this is indeed a miracle for those not blind :)

[Martini]

I'm not going to play this game this way Al-Nasser. You simply cut and paste a large article and I am supposed to take the time and energy to pick apart (which I can) the author's nonsene? Not fair at all.

He (and you) are interpretting things in a totally ridiculous manner to have the Qur'an say whatever it is you want it to say.

It is clear that the Qur'an states that mountains were put here so the Earth wouldn't shake, and that is incorrect.

Just as the peg or picket’s function is mainly to hold the tent solidly to the ground, so too is the exact same role of mountains. We have come to know that the outer rocky layer of the Earth is fractured by faults into plates that float on molten magma. With the earth’s rotation around its own axis, these floating plates would have been rapidly moving had it not been for the stabilizing influence of mountains.This is utter nonsense and scientifically inaccurate. Mountains do not stabilize anything and were not around in the Earth's beginnings! Please understand this.

Mountains act like pegs or pickets that hold the continental masses down and stops them moving.Scientifically inaccurate! What more can I say? I'm afraid you are going to do just what I thought you would do. You are not being intellectually honest and you have will never budge on the Qur'an being wrong anywhere because you have formed your conclusion first and want to back it up with facts ( even incorrect ones) second. Backwards logic. I am afraid I am wasting my time here.

[Al-Nasser]

I'm not going to play this game this way Al-Nasser. You simply cut and paste a large article and I am supposed to take the time and energy to pick apart (which I can) the author's nonsene? Not fair at all.
ok ok...i am sorry.....but i am not a moving encyclopedia and i need articles help and such......ok...no more full articles copy and pasting


He (and you) are interpretting things in a totally ridiculous manner to have the Qur'an say whatever it is you want it to say.

It is clear that the Qur'an states that mountains were put here so the Earth wouldn't shake, and that is incorrect.


This is utter nonsense and scientifically inaccurate. Mountains do not stabilize anything and were not around in the Earth's beginnings! Please understand this.


well....but in this article (http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm) in a website called "Geology 100" and its not an Islami website it say

This diagram shows how blocks of wood floating on water can be compared to blocks of crust floating on the mantle. Like an iceberg floating in the water, only a small part of the wooden block shows above the surface.
The parts of the crust do the same when floating on the mantle. Tall land masses like mountains have huge roots pushing down into the mantle to stabilize them. The taller the mountains the deeper the roots push into the mantle. Valleys on land and oceanic trenches at sea have the most shallow roots. and as for "mountains were not there" i refer you again to the 2nd article i posted...at the bottom of it you reads

Muhammad (peace be upon him) is quoted to have said in an authentic hadith that when Allah created the earth it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it with mountains





Scientifically inaccurate! What more can I say? I'm afraid you are going to do just what I thought you would do. You are not being intellectually honest and you have will never budge on the Qur'an being wrong anywhere because you have formed your conclusion first and want to back it up with facts ( even incorrect ones) second. Backwards logic. I am afraid I am wasting my time here.
i believe that geology 100 (http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm) link answer that

[Abdul-Curim]

martini , what is your relationship with geology ?

[Martini]

Al-Nasser, I'm not sure what that web-site you provided by a community college is trying to say, but mountains are formed by moving land masses. They are not "created" through nature or by God to stop land masses from moving. They are the result of land masses moving.


Muhammad (peace be upon him) is quoted to have said in an authentic hadith that when Allah created the earth it started to shake and jerk, then Allah stabilized it with mountainsIf the Earth was shaking when it was created, you sure as hell can't use science to show that mountains stopped it from shaking. Again, it took millions of years for mountains to form and the Earth was not shaking during this time.

Hypothetical question: Would you ever admit the Qur'an is wrong about something if showed enough evisence or would you just think that there must be a way to interpret it so Allah is correct because you are already convinced the Qur'an is the word of God?

To get off the subject for a minute let me tell you a little about myself. I was born into a muslim family. Everyone in my family is still muslim except for me. I didn't become an atheist because I wanted to be a rebelious teenager (many years ago) or because I wanted to be evil or because I was too lazy to pray or fast during Ramadan. I became an atheist because searching for truth in life became very important to me. It became obvious to me fairly quickly during this search that all cultures around the world throughout all time made up stories of God and gods as a way of explaining things that they couldn't explain. I'm not knocking this aspect of humans because I think it is rather natural.

When looking at the Qur'an specifically I, can not see whatsoever how anyone can be fooled in to thinking that this was written by a supreme being. It is full of scientific inacurracies, contradictions, and historical and moral problems. Do you really think a fair and compassionate God would punish me by burning me in fire for simply not believing He exists?

[Sultan]

martini , what is your relationship with geology ?
He probably has none.

I'm gonna have fun watching this guy make a fool of himself by attempting to disprove the scientific truths of the Quran, just like many others have tried.

I just hope he is more scientifically educated than the others.

[Sultan]

Al-Nasser, I'm not sure what that web-site you provided by a community college is trying to say, but mountains are formed by moving land masses. They are not "created" through nature or by God to stop land masses from moving. They are the result of land masses moving.

It's saying that you are wrong, and by using the tactic of someone cornered, you prefer not to acknowledge it.

So you are a fake claiming to be an apostate?

Hmm. we get them all the time.

Usually, they turn out be xtians only pretending (you can tell coz they usually post the same crap from their websites).

[Martini]

So Sultan, you think that mountains keep the earth stable and you call me the fool? You think I am A Christian? Laugh if you like Sultan, that's what fools do best.

[Sultan]

So Sultan, you think that mountains keep the earth stable and you call me the fool? You think I am A Christian? Laugh if you like Sultan, that's what fools do best.
I am laughing. I studied tectonic plates in Natural Science course.

So far you you failed to live up to your expectation in trying to disprove the science in the Quran.

[Martini]

You learned in Natural Science course that mountains stop the Earth from shaking? I think you are being purposefully dishonest to defend Islam.

[Sultan]

You learned in Natural Science course that mountains stop the Earth from shaking? I think you are being purposefully dishonest to defend Islam.
Did you ever study Geology?

[miss_islam2006]

hey peeps i'm miss islam 2006 and i just wanna say hi to everyone

[I don't know]

You learned in Natural Science course that mountains stop the Earth from shaking? I think you are being purposefully dishonest to defend Islam.- The appropriate thing to do would be to cite some sources, if only to be more convincing.

[MsWesterner]

Sultan
In support of Martini, why are you "laughing" - did your Natural Science course give you a degree in Geology???

Mountains still continue to be formed, and as for them stopping the earth shaking......well now I laugh, given that my home country is NZ, very mountainous and right on a fault line, so with plenty of earth tremors.

The peg theory and some "graphs" were debunked on this very forum some months ago.

[Al-Irhaab]

Sultan
In support of Martini, why are you "laughing" - did your Natural Science course give you a degree in Geology???

Mountains still continue to be formed, and as for them stopping the earth shaking......well now I laugh, given that my home country is NZ, very mountainous and right on a fault line, so with plenty of earth tremors.

The peg theory and some "graphs" were debunked on this very forum some months ago.

yes i know so now an uneducated challenged nobody is going to disprove geologists .. and her proof ... she lives in new zealand... round of applause everyone pure genius her theory is :rolleyes:

[MsWesterner]

I beg your pardon Al Irhaab....so how qualified are you, and what are you trying to refute - that mountains don't continue to form??? Or could it be that you dont know about the fault line? I guess that you must therefore have a university degree and much life experience in this field then, given the nature of your comments.

please....do tell us all.

[GothiKa]

Regarding the Quran's comparsion of mountains with pegs, I got this:

The mountains, like pegs, have deep roots embedded in the ground. (Anatomy of the Earth, Cailleux, p. 220)

[MsWesterner]

it also said earth was flat, stationary, and infers earth (crust) was spread out like a carpet with the mountains then put on as pegs/anchor/weights - with the function of mountains being to prevent the earth from shaking.

definition of pegs would "tie in" with the above theory of weighing something down - but the function???? no, not at all.

mountains do continue to form, and it's not true that they make stability. Not at all true.

regarding "pegs".....I believe this has been debunked.

[GothiKa]

it also said earth was flat, stationary, and infers earth (crust) was spread out like a carpet with the mountains then put on as pegs/anchor/weights - with the function of mountains being to prevent the earth from shaking.

Ahhhh....this is getting interesing. Please show me the pertinent verses regarding the shape and stability of the earth.

For your information, I've had many debates with non-muslims on those two charges. So you should be careful in making your points. If I succeed in debunking your claims, you will be exposed as a liar once and for all.

[MsWesterner]

Gothika....do mountains prevent the earth shaking?
Are mountains still being formed?

[GothiKa]

Please don't try to cop out now. I asked you to show me the verses which confirm your assertion that the earth is flat and stationary.

[MsWesterner]

I beg your pardon Gothika.....Im at work right now but will post it when I can, so what's with this "cop out" wording.

Again, I ask you.........do mountains prevent shaking, and are they still being formed? What do you think???

[GothiKa]

I beg your pardon Gothika.....Im at work right now but will post it when I can, so what's with this "cop out" wording.

Silly excuse!:rolleyes:
You once stated that you read the Quran. It should not be difficult for you to point out the pertinent verses, unless you have lied like always

[MsWesterner]

don't call me a liar Gothika....remember once you did and had to apologise.
Never once have I stated to read "the Quran" in totality, so who is being untruthful on here now? Sure is not me.
Why are you always so aggressive in your stance?

[MsWesterner]

and I noted....you still dont want to answer my questions!!!! why not?

[GothiKa]

don't call me a liar Gothika

Liar

Never once have I stated to read "the Quran" in totality, so who is being untruthful on here now? Sure is not me.

By God, I truly read a statement of yours wherein you had said "As for the Quran, I have read it"

Why are you always so aggressive in your stance?

You are again trying to change focus. You have enough time to digress, but no time to post relevant verses?

[GothiKa]

because I asked you to point out the verses first. Instead of doing that, you responded with questions. Truly, you know you are lying. Otherwise, you could have easily responded to my claims

[MsWesterner]

you really show your true colours - I dont appreciate it, always calling others liars.....have you so quickly forgotten the time you had to apologise??? seems not.

[I don't know]

Ahhhh....this is getting interesing. Please show me the pertinent verses regarding the shape and stability of the earth.

For your information, I've had many debates with non-muslims on those two charges. So you should be careful in making your points. If I succeed in debunking your claims, you will be exposed as a liar once and for all.- You should be more careful with that word, the fact that someone is wrong doesn't mean that they're lying.

[GothiKa]

you really show your true colours - I dont appreciate it, always calling others liars.....have you so quickly forgotten the time you had to apologise??? seems not.

It seems that you do have time to respond, but not enough to address my request.
You are being mendacious, as usual.

[GothiKa]

- You should be more careful with that word, the fact that someone is wrong doesn't mean that they're lying.

kindly mind your own business since this is between me and MsWesterner

[MsWesterner]

please Gothika....grow up - what is it you are trying to prove?

[I don't know]

kindly mind your own business since this is between me and MsWesterner- If it was a private matter you'd be doing it by PM, not on a public forum. It's an interesting topic, and I'm just doing what I can to help make the debate constructive.

Now stop whining :|

[MsWesterner]

Gothika....I guess you know of the late Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz and the fatwa he issued. He knew how it is embarrassing for him in the scientific circles, but he was willing to face the whole world because of his confidence in the Quran!!! What did the fatwa say???? you tell me.

[GothiKa]

again you respond to my question with a question.........why is it difficult for you to show me the pertinent verses, why?

[WhatAJoke]

I'm not going to play this game this way Al-Nasser. You simply cut and paste a large article and I am supposed to take the time and energy to pick apart (which I can) the author's nonsene? Not fair at all.

He (and you) are interpretting things in a totally ridiculous manner to have the Qur'an say whatever it is you want it to say.

It is clear that the Qur'an states that mountains were put here so the Earth wouldn't shake, and that is incorrect.

This is utter nonsense and scientifically inaccurate. Mountains do not stabilize anything and were not around in the Earth's beginnings! Please understand this.

Scientifically inaccurate! What more can I say? I'm afraid you are going to do just what I thought you would do. You are not being intellectually honest and you have will never budge on the Qur'an being wrong anywhere because you have formed your conclusion first and want to back it up with facts ( even incorrect ones) second. Backwards logic. I am afraid I am wasting my time here.

you dont need to be a scholar to point out what God is saying in the Quran. These versus are for the people who dont believe, Allah explains to them how he sets the mountains on earth, how he has created the mountains, Surely it should be a sign for the non believers that God does exist.

[Al-Nasser]

Gothika....do mountains prevent the earth shaking?
Are mountains still being formed?

are you blind or you do have problems reading and comprehending!!?

the answer is in the first page of this site........not from an Islamic source but from a geology science website

This diagram shows how blocks of wood floating on water can be compared to blocks of crust floating on the mantle. Like an iceberg floating in the water, only a small part of the wooden block shows above the surface.
The parts of the crust do the same when floating on the mantle. Tall land masses like mountains have huge roots pushing down into the mantle to stabilize them. The taller the mountains the deeper the roots push into the mantle. Valleys on land and oceanic trenches at sea have the most shallow roots.

http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture2.htm

http://dl.ccc.cccd.edu/classes/telecourses/geology100/IntroLecture_files/image011.jpg

kufr really sucks......it is a form of blindness......

[MsWesterner]

Al Nasser
I have no trouble whatsoever reading and comprehending......but obviously read different books and "pictures" than you.

the question is:
do mountains prevent the earth shaking?
are mountains still being formed?

[MsWesterner]

and I note you chose not to show the positive and negative diagrams.

Why don't you answer my questions, given how disparaging you have been? They are very simple.

[Omar]

Al Nasser
I have no trouble whatsoever reading and comprehending......but obviously read different books and "pictures" than you.

the question is:
do mountains prevent the earth shaking?
are mountains still being formed?

here you go

do some reading inshaAllah.

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-b.htm

What pictures u been checking? Im not tlaking bout dodgy stuff

[MsWesterner]

Omar
if you are talking about the diagrams above being "dodgy stuff".....it was one of your fellow muslims that posted them.

I already do plenty of reading thanks, and prefer to read "independant" reports that dont have to come up with the word "pegs".

Would you like to answer the two questions for me???

[Omar]

Omar
if you are talking about the diagrams above being "dodgy stuff".....it was one of your fellow muslims that posted them.

I already do plenty of reading thanks, and prefer to read "independant" reports that dont have to come up with the word "pegs".

Would you like to answer the two questions for me???

I wasnt reffering to those pics i was saying u prob check dodgy pics.

What independant reports?

[MsWesterner]

non islamic reports obviously.

now, please....answer my questions - they are simple.

[Omar]

non islamic reports obviously.

now, please....answer my questions - they are simple.

can i have the name of these reports please id like to read them. Thnks

[MsWesterner]

Contrary to how you might be, I do not record all that I read and see. However, if you look you will find the same.

Omar....but why have you ignored my questions????? One does not need "research" to know the answers, I'm sure.

[Omar]

Contrary to how you might be, I do not record all that I read and see. However, if you look you will find the same.

Omar....but why have you ignored my questions????? One does not need "research" to know the answers, I'm sure.

But i want to know wht books u read so i can check them too i want others perspective

[MsWesterner]

do you need books to be able to answer such basic questions? Or are you choosing to ignore them?

in this information age you can easily look up whatever you wish.

[Omar]

do you need books to be able to answer such basic questions? Or are you choosing to ignore them?

in this information age you can easily look up whatever you wish.

But i want to know wht books u read

[MsWesterner]

you are very transparent.......and this shows you can answer.

books you say? just recently I read an "article" but told you, I dont record them.

so again......do mountains prevent the earth from shaking??? yes or no

[GothiKa]

It seems that MsWesterner has chosen not to answer my questions. See how mendacious she is?

[GothiKa]

you are very transparent.......and this shows you can answer.

books you say? just recently I read an "article" but told you, I dont record them.

so again......do mountains prevent the earth from shaking??? yes or no

will you answer my question or not? It is clear that you are being cornered in this thread. Better luck next time!

[MsWesterner]

what did you make of the Fatwa Gothika?

[Omar]

you are very transparent.......and this shows you can answer.

books you say? just recently I read an "article" but told you, I dont record them.

so again......do mountains prevent the earth from shaking??? yes or no

can you scan the "article" for me please

[Omar]

what did you make of the Fatwa Gothika?

Mswesterner all i want is one of ur sources i want to try and understand ur thinking

[GothiKa]

MsWesterner, why is it so difficult for you to answer my question?

[Omar]

MsWesterner, why is it so difficult for you to answer my question?

I want my question answered first can u go to the back of the que please

[GothiKa]

No problem bro! Let us wait and see if MsWesterner answers our questions at all. There is a 90% chance that she won't, as usual.

[MsWesterner]

I've answered yours Omar.
But you havn't answered mine......does that mean you cant?

Gothika
do you agree a Fatwa was issued by a man considered to have unquestionable knowledge of Islam...."that the earth is flat and those muslims who say otherwise contradict the Quranic teachings". Was this issued or not?

[Omar]

U didnt answer mine

[GothiKa]

I've answered yours Omar.
But you havn't answered mine......does that mean you cant?

Gothika
do you agree a Fatwa was issued by a man considered to have unquestionable knowledge of Islam...."that the earth is flat and those muslims who say otherwise contradict the Quranic teachings". Was this issued or not?

omar, do you see what I mean?

[GothiKa]

In page2, I had asked you to show me the pertinent verses. You replied

[quote=MsWesterner;1267661]I beg your pardon Gothika.....Im at work right now but will post it when I can, so what's with this "cop out" wording. quote]

Are you still at work, or at home? If in the latter, can you please show me the verses now?

[MsWesterner]

stop being so ridiculous again Gothika......I did answer his, when I told him I didnt have the "name" of a book.....I dont keep records of articles I read, but also one doesn't need a book to answer the questions Ive asked, do they.

[Omar]

omar, do you see what I mean?

yeah lol

I dont think this is going to get anywhere, Ms west jsut doesnt seem to want to give her sources and answers to nything.

[GothiKa]

Kaffirs.....:rolleyes:

[MsWesterner]

88.20 Nor even how the earth has been flattened out.
43.10 Yea, the same that has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out (Mahdan)
13.3 And He it is who hath outstretched the earth, and placed on it the firm mountains (Madda)

now - what about the Fatwa??? this Sheikh was of high authority, and it wasnt that very many years ago either.

p.s. I understand the words used originally actually mean flat ( mahdan and madda)

[Omar]

88.20 Nor even how the earth has been flattened out.
43.10 Yea, the same that has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out (Mahdan)
13.3 And He it is who hath outstretched the earth, and placed on it the firm mountains (Madda)

now - what about the Fatwa??? this Sheikh was of high authority, and it wasnt that very many years ago either.

p.s. I understand the words used originally actually mean flat ( mahdan and madda)

Pleaseeee can i have the source of the article?

[MsWesterner]

You now have the reference Omar......

but you still have not answered my questions......why not? I am taking it that you cant!

[Omar]

You now have the reference Omar......

but you still have not answered my questions......why not? I am taking it that you cant!

Wheres the reference?

[MsWesterner]

ive quoted it...the Quran

[GothiKa]

The Arabic word for "earth" is "ard". Apart from meaning the planet earth, ard has several other meanings. The correct translation of 88:20 should be "Nor even how the land/soil/ground has been flattened out"

Mahad, as used in 43.10, also has several meanings. The correct translation should be "well perpared". You asserted that it originally meant "flatten". I would like you to prove it.

As for the Shiek's fatwa, I'm afraid he never made such a statement. It was lie forged against him.

But what do you make of Ibn Tayimiyah who in the 8th century declared that the earth is spherical using the Quran as his basis?

[Omar]

ive quoted it...the Quran

U said u read an article

[MsWesterner]

oh.....was a lie "forged against him" was it? really!!!

so did the arabs of the 7th century hear Mohammed reciting the verses describing the movement of the sun around a flat earth that is stabilised by placing mountains here and there......and him saying the earth is like a carpet.

[GothiKa]

oh.....was a lie "forged against him" was it? really!!!


Yes it was, and I'm sorry to say this but you are not the only liar in this world.

Shiek Ibn Baaz said, " I affirm in the statement what I have quoted from the Allamah Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy upon him, that which proves the affirmation of the roundness of the earth."

The Collection and Sayings of Ibn Baz, Vol. 9


so did the arabs of the 7th century hear Mohammed reciting the verses describing the movement of the sun around a flat earth that is stabilised by placing mountains here and there......and him saying the earth is like a carpet


No because Muhammad(pbuh) died before the 7th century

[MsWesterner]

my turn now......"do mountains prevent the earth from shaking"?

[MDK]

88.20 Nor even how the earth has been flattened out.
43.10 Yea, the same that has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out (Mahdan)
13.3 And He it is who hath outstretched the earth, and placed on it the firm mountains (Madda)

now - what about the Fatwa??? this Sheikh was of high authority, and it wasnt that very many years ago either.

p.s. I understand the words used originally actually mean flat ( mahdan and madda)

And where is your evidence that the arabic word madda and mahdan means "flat".

Hens wehr's dictionary, lisaan al 3rab?
where?

Remember this Mswesterner, the translation of the Qur'aan are merily Tafseer of the Qur'aan. Let me show you a translated tafseer of that ayaah (13.3) in the Qur'aan (tanwir al-Miqbas min tafseer al abbaas):

(And He it is who spread out the earth) He spread out the earth on water...

As you can clearly see, the earth refered in that Ayaah is refering to the land, the soil of which we rest upon.

As for 43.3 (43.10 Yea, the same that has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out (Mahdan)you again are looking at the tafseer. But it seems to be that you are trying to decieve us Mswesterner. The translation of that tafseer you quoted is yusuf Ali's, this is what he shown:

(Yea, the same that) has made for you the earth (like a carpet) spread out, and has made for you roads (and channels) therein, in order that ye may find guidance (on the way);

Note the carpet part is in brackets, therefore showing that it is his own opinion and not actually part of the arabic ayaat. what you have done Mswesterner, is that you removed the brackets to make it look it is part of the actual ayaah.:rolleyes:

Look at the actual ayaah:

الَّذِي جَعَلَ لَكُمُ الْأَرْضَ مَهْداً وَجَعَلَ لَكُمْ فِيهَا سُبُلاً لَّعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ

There is no arabic word for carpet there, at all. The arabic word mahdan has many meanings, but let me present to you the tafseer (tanwir al-Miqbas min tafseer al abbaas):

Allah says: yes, He created them Him (Who made the earth a resting place for you, and placed roads for you therein, that haply ye may find your way) by means of the roads;

Both the ayaat and the tafseer in no way supports that the earth is flat.

Now look at this:

039.005 خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأرْضَ بِالْحَقِّ يُكَوِّرُ اللَّيْلَ عَلَى النَّهَارِ وَيُكَوِّرُ النَّهَارَ عَلَى اللَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ الشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لأجَلٍ مُسَمًّى أَلا هُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْغَفَّارُ
039.005 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?
039.005 Khalaqa a(l)ssam[a]w[a]ti wa(a)l-ar[d]a bi(a)l[h]aqqi yukawwiru allayla AAal[a] a(l)nnah[a]ri wayukawwiru a(l)nnah[a]ra AAal[a] allayli wasakhkhara a(l)shshamsa wa(a)lqamara kullun yajree li-ajalin musamman al[a] huwa alAAazeezu alghaff[a]r(u)

In verse 39.005 above, Allah says Yukawwir (to move in a ball motion, to cause revolve in a circular motion) the night around the day and the day around the night. This is a clear indication of a round earth.

wasalaam.

[MsWesterner]

and are mountains still forming?

[Al-Nasser]

and are mountains still forming?

yes.....

[GothiKa]

my turn now......"do mountains prevent the earth from shaking"?

as in earthquakes?

[MsWesterner]

the function is to prevent the earth from shaking.....yes or no?

[GothiKa]

no.............

[ibn suleman]

my turn now......"do mountains prevent the earth from shaking"?

is the earth shaking?

[MsWesterner]

the reality is that people believed the earth was flat - and the Quran uses words that meant flat

Madda, madadnaha, firasha, mahdan, farashnaha, bisata, mihada, dahaha, tahaha and sutehat

yukawer - translated as "wraps" refers to the day and night

[Al-Nasser]

the function is to prevent the earth from shaking.....yes or no?

one of the functions.....but not to prevent "shaking"

imam Ar Razi gave an excellent example for us to understand the word "tamyeed"

إن السفينة إذا ألقيت على وجه الماء ، فإنها تميد من جانب إلى جانب ، وتضطرب ، فإذا وضعت الأجرام الثقيلة في تلك السفينة استقرت على وجه الماء فاستوت . قالوا فكذلك لما خلق الله تعالى الأرض على وجه الماء اضطربت ومادت ، فخلق الله تعالى عليها هذه الجبال الثقال فاستقرت على وجه الماء بسبب ثقل هذه الجبال .


like the ship on water......it swings left and right.....until you put much weights in it and it stabilize

the earth (the crust) is like this ship.....the water is the liquid under the crust....and the weights are the mountains

simply amazing

[GothiKa]

the reality is that people believed the earth was flat - and the Quran uses words that meant flat

Madda, madadnaha, firasha, mahdan, farashnaha, bisata, mihada, dahaha, tahaha and sutehat

yukawer - translated as "wraps" refers to the day and night

you neither speak nor understand Arabic, and you have the audacity to quote Arabic words and assert nonsense? YOU ARE A LIAR!!!!

[MsWesterner]

I see....just "one" of the functions!!!! mmm

[MsWesterner]

Gothika....why is it that on here you are often calling people "liar"....I see you write stuff that others properly refute, yet never do I call you such names.

what do those words mean then?

[MsWesterner]

and are you honestly saying it's nonsense that people did not believe the world to be flat???? come on!!!

[Al-Nasser]

"And remember how He made you inheritors after the 'Ad people and gave you habitations in the land: ye build for yourselves palaces and castles in (open) plains, and care out homes in the mountains; so bring to remembrance the benefits (ye have received) from Allah, and refrain from evil and mischief on the earth."
007.074

And your Lord revealed to the bee saying: Make hives in the mountains and in the trees and in what they build:
016.068

And Allah has made for you of what He has created shelters, and He has given you in the mountains places of retreat, and He has given you garments to preserve you from the heat and coats of mail to preserve you in your fighting; even thus does He complete His favor upon you, that haply you may submit.
016:081

[GothiKa]

you tell me what those words mean? and please quote from relevant sources, for instance, dictionaries(Arabic to English)

[MsWesterner]

I've told you.....they mean flat. If you dont agree, then you look it up.

And what was the other "nonsense" you referred to......was it the fact that people did believe the earth was flat????

[StrawberryMilk]

Gothika....why is it that on here you are often calling people "liar"....

because if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it must be a . . . . .

[Arifa]

the reality is that people believed the earth was flat - and the Quran uses words that meant flat

Madda, madadnaha, firasha, mahdan, farashnaha, bisata, mihada, dahaha, tahaha and sutehat

yukawer - translated as "wraps" refers to the day and night

Source:

http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/myth_of_scientific_miracles.htm

[Umar`]

the word yukawer is a word used to describe the wrapping of a turban on somones head and the cycle of night and day so by analogy it is clear that the earth is being described as spherical but 7th century people had no concept of gravity and may have struggled to understand it and Allah swt did not overburden them with knowledge that would not have any real benefit for them.

[Al-Nasser]

one important verse about the mountains

Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed: but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.
027.088

it says............you see mountains so big and firm....but actually these mountains are flying like clouds

this is possible because the whole earth is flying in the space

[Ibn Sina]

the reality is that people believed the earth was flat - and the Quran uses words that meant flat

Madda, madadnaha, firasha, mahdan, farashnaha, bisata, mihada, dahaha, tahaha and sutehat

yukawer - translated as "wraps" refers to the day and night


Can you please give exact references to the Surahs and the Arabic? To start off , Dahaha does NOT mean flat on the contrary it means egg shaped, this is supported by the translation of Rashid Khalifa:

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَهَا

Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha

He made the earth egg-shaped.*


http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search.cgi?search_text=egg-shaped&search_type=Exact+String&khalifa=1

Dr. Zakir Naik further elaborates on the meaning of dahaha :


The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.


http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:ZDpoDjj62RcJ:emuslim.com/QuranandScience/Astronomy.asp+dahaha&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


See what happens when you cut and paste from anti-Islamics?

Another detailed rebuttal o what you said:


In 31:29, Allah says,

"Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night?" [31:29] [also see 3:27, 22:61, 35:13, 57:6]

The key word in 31:29 is “yooliju”. The root of the word “yooliju” is W-L-J. From the same root there is a word, “WOLUJUN”, which means a bend, or a place of bending, of a valley. When you walk on a place of bending of a valley, you see the horizon changing steadily, in front of your eyes. According to 31:29, the night changes into the day steadily as you see horizon changing steadily in front of your eyes, when you walk upon a place of bending of a valley. So, the change of day and night according to 31:29 give the idea of earth being NOT FLAT.

In 39:5, Allah says,

"…He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night…" 39:5

The key word in 39:5 is “yukawwiru”. The primary signification of the root of the word “yukawwiru” is “to wind a thing in a round form”, like e.g. a turban is wound round a head. This verse 39:5, again gives the idea of the earth being roundish and not FLAT.

In 79:30, Allah says,

[Transliteration] Waal-arda baAAda thalika dahaha [79:30]

The key word in the above verse is “dahaha”. In Arabic, there is a phrase, “iza dahaha” which means “when he throws the stones over the ground to the hole”. The hole is called “Udhiyatun”. “Almadahi” signify round stones according to the size of which a hole is dug in the ground in which the stones are thrown in a game. “Almadahi” also signify a round thing made of lead by the throwing of which persons contend together. So there is a signification of ROUNDNESS in the root of the word “dahaha”. According to some etymologists, the word for the “egg of an ostrich” also has the same root as “dahaha”. They also take from this that the earth is of the shape of the egg of an ostrich. Latest science findings confirm that the earth is not exactly spherical but the earth is an ellipsoid, i.e. flattened by its poles,[ just like the shape of an egg of an ostrich].

The Arabic words for “flat” or “level” or “straight shaped” are “sawi” and “almustavi”. There is not a single place in Quran where there is any indication of the earth being “flat” or “straight shaped”. The word “faraash” in 2:22, 51:48; the word “wasia” in 4:97, 29:56, 30:10; the word “mahd” in 20:53, 43:10, 78:6; the word “basaat” in 71:19; the word “suttihat” in 88:20; and the word “tahaaha” in 91:6, all may mean, “to spread”, “to expand” or “to extend” with slight differences in their connotations but none signify the earth being straight-shaped or flat.


http://quranicteachings.co.uk/earth-shape.htm

[Omar]

Can you please give exact references to the Surahs and the Arabic?

lol you're asking for too much

[MDK]

the reality is that people believed the earth was flat - and the Quran uses words that meant flat

Madda, madadnaha, firasha, mahdan, farashnaha, bisata, mihada, dahaha, tahaha and sutehat

yukawer - translated as "wraps" refers to the day and night

You still havent answered my question Mswesterner.

Which sourece did you get that all those words mean "flat".

By reading what you say, you are not only devoid of the arabic language, but also islaam itself. (like a christian missionary:rolleyes: )

Also, let me add just another question. Read my early post in this thread, you took away the brakets for the carpets, answer me this, why did you take this away?
Yakawwiru is derived from the word KWR, meaning to revolve in a ball motion, around something. The arabic word cannot be used in a non-sphereical shape, it would be linguisticallly incorrect. The day and night covers what? it covers the earth ofcourse. As i said before, it the arabic word yakawir can only be used on sphereical objects, therefore since Allah ta'aala has used that word, the earth has to be sphereical according to the Qur'aaan.

The arabic word Madda means to stretch out, NOT "flat".

The arabic word madadnaha does not at all mean "flat", it is actually a phrase or secnetnce, not one word. It says we spread/ellongtate her.

Firasha does not mean "flat", rather a bed, or (if during Nabi (saaws) time), a resting place.

Mahdan too does not mean simply "flat", rather it means to smooth out or make level.

Basically all of those words do NOT mean flat.

[GothiKa]

MsWesterner is simply a dishonest person.

[MsWesterner]

oh really Gothika, dishonest am I........so you are saying that people "did not" believe the earth to be flat.
And regarding the Fatwa issued by the Sheik? you claim it was a lie.

[GothiKa]

oh really Gothika, dishonest am I

Of course

........so you are saying that people "did not" believe the earth to be flat.

I don't care about that. The only thing I find perplexing is your persistence that you, a person who neither understands nor speaks Arabic, know what the meanings of those Arabic words are!!!

And regarding the Fatwa issued by the Sheik? you claim it was a lie.

Maybe that lie was forged by Mr.Westerner:D

[MsWesterner]

lol.....a lie forged by me! you are struggling to come up with such an answer.

[GothiKa]

I said MRWesterner, not MSWesterner

[MsWesterner]

sorry
but what about the Fatwa.....was one issued, or not?
I do note you are not at all concerned that people thought the earth was flat though.

[GothiKa]

Don't you read? I have already covered the Fatwa issue

[MsWesterner]

of course I read.....how do you think I learned of it in the first place.

[Tahiyah]

"The stabilization of lithospheric plates by mountains is effected by their sinking deeply into the zone of weakness of the Earth (the asthenosphere) as wooden pegs sink into the ground to stabilize the corners of a tent. Such a process of stabilization cannot take place without the presence of a viscous, plastic material under the outer rocky cover of the Earth, into which the mountains "roots" can float. In as much as the ship casts its anchor into the anchorage of a port to avoid the dangers of rolling and swaying by winds and waves, the Glorious Quran uses the term "Rawasi" (=moorings or firm anchors) to describe mountains. Such firm anchors do not only stabilize the lithospheric plates, but also the whole planet in its spinning around its own axis (nutation, recession, etc.)."

[MDK]

oh really Gothika, dishonest am I........so you are saying that people "did not" believe the earth to be flat.
And regarding the Fatwa issued by the Sheik? you claim it was a lie.

This is getting ridiculous, MSwesterner, Answer my two Questions.

Yes it is true that the Arabs thought at that time thought the earth was flat, and so does that indicate the Qur'aan is implying the earth is flat?

The Qur'aan was written by Allah, he is not an arab, or human, he is God, the most high. The Qur'aan was not made up like the gospels.

And what fatwa are you talkking about?

[MsWesterner]

Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.

and yes, there are some "writers" who say the Quran implies the earth is flat.

I understand the Quran was written by people?

[Al-Nasser]

Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.


this is a hoax

[MsWesterner]

oh really? is there proof of that?

[GothiKa]

oh really? is there proof of that?

I have already shown you his testimony. He adheres to the view of the 8th ceuntry Islamic scholar that the earth is spherical.

are you blind or stupid?

[MsWesterner]

there you go again with insults......"blind or stupid".

your rudeness and arrogance I find quite abhorrent.

I didnt see actual proof.

[MsWesterner]

did he issue a fatwa or not!

[GothiKa]

so his own testimony is not proof? :rolleyes:

Grow up MsWesterner

[GothiKa]

he issued no such fatwas

[Al-Nasser]

in the 9th book of Fatawee Al Sheikh Ibn Baz

رد على المفترين على العلماء
من عبد العزيز بن عبد الله بن باز إلى حضرة الأخ المكرم
وفقه الله لما فيه رضاه آمين
سلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته :
بعده : كتابكم الكريم المؤرخ 21 / 10 / 1397 هـ وصل وصلكم الله بهداه ، وأفيدكم أني لم أطلع على كتابكم السابق الذي أشرتم إليه ، بل سلم لمندوبكم قبل أن أطلع عليه ، وقد كان فضيلة مدير مكتبي أخبرني به وذكر أنه مطول ، فأجلت قراءته إلى وقت مناسب خارج المكتب ، فطلبتموه قبل ذلك ، فأمرت بتسليمه لمندوبكم . . وقد اطلعت على ما نشرته صحيفة السياسة الكويتية ، فألفيتها قد ذكرت ما أشرتم إليه من زعمها أن مدير الجامعة الإسلامية بالمدينة المنورة كفر من قال بهبوط الإنسان على سطح القمر ، أو قال : إن الأرض كروية ، أو أنها تدور ، وهذا تنقله السياسة عن البيان الذي أصدره كتاب وأدباء التجمع التقدمي في مصر .
ولا شك أنهم يقصدون بمدير الجامعة شخصي . لأني أنا الذي كتبت في الموضوع حينما أذيع خبر النزول على سطح القمر وكنت ذلك الوقت رئيس الجامعة ، ولا شك أن الأمر كما أشرتم إليه من جهة وجود المفترين على العلماء وغيرهم ، كما يوجد من ينقل الأخبار على غير وجهها كما قيل : وما آفة الأخبار إلا رواتها ، ومقالكم الذي نشر في المجلة الأمريكية ونقلت بعضه مجلة الاعتصام هو من هذا الباب ، وكنت كلمت جلالة الملك خالد في الموضوع بحضرة المشايخ ، لأن المقال خطير فأردت من ذلك أن يطلع على الواقع ويوعز إليكم أن تكذبوه إن كان كذبا ، لأن أعداء الله قد يكذبون عليكم وعلى غيركم ، أو تتوبوا منه حتى يعلم ذلك كل من اطلع على المقال وغيرهم ، وبذلك ينتهي الأمر ويتضح الحق ، وليس في هذا الإجراء غرابة ، لأن المنكر العظيم إذا ظهر وجب أن ينكر ظاهرا حتى لا يغتر به أحد ، وحتى لا يلتبس أمره على بعض الناس .
ومن هذا الباب قصة حاطب بن أبي بلتعة الصحابي المشهور أحد المهاجرين لما كتب إلى قريش يخبرهم بعزم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم على غزوهم عام ثمان من الهجرة ، فأخبر الله نبيه بذلك ، فأرسل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم علي بن أبي طالب ، والزبير بن العوام ، والمقداد بن الأسود رضي الله عنهم ، إلى المرأة التي تحمل الكتاب وقال : تجدونها في روضة خاخ فذهبوا وأدركوها وأخذوا الكتاب منها وسلموه للنبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فأحضره النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وسأله بحضرة الناس عما حمله على الكتاب فأجاب بما لا يخفى على مثلكم ، وقال عمر في ذلك قوله المشهور وهو طلب قتله فقال النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم : إنه قد شهد بدرا الحديث .
وليس أحد منا معصوما وإنما العصمة لله ولرسله فيما يبلغونه عنه سبحانه ، والمؤمن يبتلى ويمتحن بالغلط منه وبالكذب عليه وبغير ذلك ، والواجب عليه عند ذلك تكذيب الكذب والتوبة مما زل به لسانه أو قلمه أو غير ذلك من جوارحه .
وقد اطلعت على ما كتبتم في صحيفة " المدينة " من التكذيب ، وأسأل الله أن يوفقنا وإياكم للفقه في دينه والثبات عليه والنصح لله ولعباده ، كما أسأله سبحانه أن يمن علينا جميعا بالتوبة النصوح من جميع ذنوبنا وتقصيرنا ، وأن يصلح قلوبنا وأعمالنا إنه سميع قريب .
أما ما نشرته عني مجلة " السياسة " نقلا عن البيان الذي كتبه كتاب وأدباء التجمع التقدمي في مصر من إنكاري هبوط الإنسان على سطح القمر وتكفير من قال بذلك ، أو قال إن الأرض كروية ، أو تدور ، فهو كذب بحت لا أساس له من الصحة ، وقد يكون الناقل لم يتعمد الكذب ولكن لم يتثبت في النقل ، ومقالي مطبوع ومنشور وقد أوضحت فيه الرد على من أنكر هبوط الإنسان على سطح القمر ، أو كفر من صدق بذلك ، وبينت أن الواجب على من لا علم لديه التوقف وعدم التصديق والتكذيب حتى يحصل له من المعلومات ما يقتضي ذلك .
كما أني قد أثبت في المقال فيما نقلته عن العلامة ابن القيم رحمه الله ما يدل على إثبات كروية الأرض ، أما دورانها فقد أنكرته وبينت الأدلة على بطلانه ولكني لم أكفر من قال به ، وإنما كفرت من قال إن الشمس ثابتة غير جارية لأن هذا القول مصادم لصريح القرآن الكريم والسنة المطهرة الصحيحة الدالين على أن الشمس والقمر يجريان ، وإليكم نسخة من المقالات الثلاث الصادرة مني في هذه المسائل ، وسأكتب إن شاء الله كلمة للسياسة أوضح فيها بطلان ما نقلته صحيفة السياسة عن البيان المشار إليه فيما يتعلق بالمسائل الأربع المذكورة وسأنشره في غيرها من الصحف إن شاء الله ليعلم القراء غلط أو كذب أصحاب البيان المذكور فيما نقلوه عني . . . والله المسئول بأسمائه الحسنى وصفاته العلى أن يرينا وإياكم وسائر إخواننا الحق حقا ويرزقنا اتباعه ، وأن يرينا الباطل باطلا ويرزقنا اجتنابه ، إنه جواد كريم .
والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته .
الرئيس العام لإدارات البحوث العامة والإفتاء
والدعوة والإرشاد
خطاب صدر من مكتب سماحته برقم 2925/1 في 7/11/1397هـ.

translation >>>>>

a response to the lies against ulema

in regard to what "Al Siyasa" newspaper claimed about me (that i denied man landing on moon, and the spherity of earth, or that the earth rotate around its axes) it is a total fabrication.......maybe they didn't intend to lie but they were not precise when they quoted my fatwa out of context

in the article i said that the man landing on moon shouldn't be denied or believed until we see solid proof

and in the same article i proved from the sayings of Imam Ibn Al Qaiyym that the earth is spherical

i only made takfir on those who said that the sun is fixed in its place, because according to Quran and sunnah the sun does move in an orbit

translation >>>>>

[MsWesterner]

given what I have learned, I will read the actual fatwa myself

then perhaps you boys can tell me more about "the sun setting in the pond" "trees that talk" (even talked about Jews)...and how the earth was spread out as a bed!!!

[MDK]

Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.

and yes, there are some "writers" who say the Quran implies the earth is flat.

I understand the Quran was written by people?

I cant believe it, you still have'nt answered my questions!

Let me repeat them to you:
Question no1
Where is the source where you said all those arabic words mean "flat"?
Lisaan al 3rab?
Hnaswheres dictionary?

Question no2
Why did you remove the brackets of the carpet in that ayah?

If you cannot answer them, just say so, instead of avoiding them.

[MDK]

given what I have learned, I will read the actual fatwa myself

then perhaps you boys can tell me more about "the sun setting in the pond" "trees that talk" (even talked about Jews)...and how the earth was spread out as a bed!!!

Do not say stuff of which you have little knowledge of.

You have been exposed of deciet, more than once. So i suggest not to embarrase yourself some more.

As for the sun setting, this has been replied to so many times before, For example:
This is another of YOUR Myths not the Qur'ans. The verse says he reached a puddle of water at Sunset (time of day) not that the sun set physically IN murkey water.
Maghrib is time of day not the location 'west'. West is Gharb not Maghrib.
The location Gharb is deduced from the time of day
For a start, the relevant word would have ended in a U sound not in an I sound.
Now pay close attention because the Arabic speaking Christians/jews would know what I am about to tell you for a fact but they still lie to mislead.

________________________________________
018.086 حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَنْ تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَنْ تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا
018.086 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
018.086 [H]att[a] i[tha] balagha maghriba a(l)shshamsi wajadah[a] taghrubu fee AAaynin [h]ami-atin wawajada AAindah[a] qawman quln[a] y[a] [tha] alqarnayni imm[a] an tuAAa[thth]iba wa-imm[a] an tattakhi[th]a feehim [h]usn[a](n)
________________________________________

Here is the relevant part: (note the red underscored letter)
The verse says: [H]att[a] i[tha] balagha maghriba a(l)shshamsi
If this was the act of the sun setting physically and the sun was hence an agent (do-er)
It would have said: [H]att[a] i[tha] balagha maghriba a(l)shshamsu

It would have ended with an u not an i.

The trees that talk? im not sure wether that is in the Qur'aan or not, but it is in the hadeeth, nonetheless i do not see any thing wrong with that happening, Allah is all-powerful, isnt he capable of willing a tree to talk?

I suppose you are refering to this verse:

Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #22)
The arabic word for the bed/couch is Firasha, but there was no such thing as a "bed" during Nabi (saaws) time, as we think of it right now. I read two tafseers of it, and it translated that word as a "resting place". Not bed or couch.

[GothiKa]

looks like MsWesterner got defeated real bad :D

[MsWesterner]

really Gothika.....so why don't you tell me about trees that talk, and do they talk about Jews?

[GothiKa]

First, it was about mountains, then shape of the earth, now trees? MsWesterner, you have not answered MDK's questions. Face it, your dishonesty has been exposed.

[Al-Nasser]

really Gothika.....so why don't you tell me about trees that talk, and do they talk about Jews?

this is the science which is very advanced

indeed the world of the unseen is a science like any other science........and like it is impossible to convince someone who never heard of telecommunications that a small piece of metal and plastic can talk to you it is also impossible to convince you that the tree will talk

there is strong resemblance

[MsWesterner]

dishonesty.....not at all?
remember that you did agree that "mountains dont prevent the earth shaking".

There is lots of dispute/writings about the Quran and interpretation Gothika, and that is undeniable.

[Ibn Sina]

given what I have learned, I will read the actual fatwa myself

then perhaps you boys can tell me more about "the sun setting in the pond" "trees that talk" (even talked about Jews)...and how the earth was spread out as a bed!!!

Although brother MDK has sufficiently answered your allegation about the sun setting in a pool of murkey water, I'd also like to explain that misinterpreated verse of the Quran:

The verse reads:

________________________________________
018.086 حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِنْدَهَا قَوْمًا قُلْنَا يَا ذَا الْقَرْنَيْنِ إِمَّا أَنْ تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمَّا أَنْ تَتَّخِذَ فِيهِمْ حُسْنًا
018.086 Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
018.086 [H]att[a] i[tha] balaghamaghribaa(l)shshamsi wajadah[a] taghrubu fee AAaynin [h]ami-atin wawajada AAindah[a] qawman quln[a] y[a] [tha] alqarnayni imm[a] an tuAAa[thth]iba wa-imm[a] an tattakhi[th]a feehim [h]usn[a](n)

Notice how it says HE found the sun to et in a pool of murkey water, this is taken from Dhul-Qarnayn's veiwpoint, thats what he saw in with his own two eyes, it does not imply that the sun literally does set in a pool of murkey water, its just what HE , Dhul-Qarnayn, saw. Also the word wajadah[a] وَجَدَهَا means it APPEARED to set in a pool of water or he found it to set in a pool of water ,its what Dhul-Qarnayn saw. Ibn Katheer explains in his tafsir:

[وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِى عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ](he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed.Mohammad Asad writes:


Note 85 (Quran Ref: 18:86 )</I>Or: "abundance of water" - which, according to many philologists (cf. Taj al-'Arus), is one of the meanings of `ayn (primarily denoting a "spring"). As for my rendering of the phrase "he found it (wajadaha) setting...", etc., as "it appeared to him that it was setting", see Razi and Ibn Kathir, both of whom point out that we have here a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the sun's "disappearing into the sea"; and Razi explains this, correctly, by the fact that the earth is spherical. (It is interesting to note that, according to him, this explanation was already advanced in the - now lost - Qur'an -commentary of Abu `Ali al-Jubba’i, the famous Mu'tazili scholar who died in 303 H., which corresponds to 915 or 916 of the Christian era.)(Quran Ref: 18:86 ) http://www.islamicity.com/Quransearch/shownote.asp?chap=18&note=85

[Ibn Sina]

Sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz.

and yes, there are some "writers" who say the Quran implies the earth is flat.

I understand the Quran was written by people?

MsWesterner, this is a complete lie!

Translated by Shakiel Humayun. Foreword by Abu Aadam

Foreword

Ibn Taymiyyah (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/index.php?category=24) recorded seven centuries ago the agreement (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=38) between astronomers and Muslim scholars on the spherical nature of the earth. Muslim scholars derived their position based on exegeses of the Qur’an - and this should come as no great surprise, since true religion and true science have always been considered by Islam to be perfectly harmonious.

In recent years, controversy flared up due to statements falsely attributed to the great scholar, Shaikh ‘Abdul-‘Aziz ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Baz [1]. He was alleged to have said that the earth is flat, and that one who denies this is a disbeliever in Islam. These unfounded allegations were picked up by Cornell astronomer Carl Sagan [2], and also reported in The New York Times [3]. Such high profile sources in turn provided fodder to a host of anti-Islamic writers, with which to label Islam as a backward and anti-scientific way of life. There was also much delight amongst followers of various heretical sects, who used these statements to attack Shaikh Ibn Baz – known throughout his life as a tireless defender of Islamic orthodoxy.

In the letter presented below, Shaikh Ibn Baz affirms his agreement with the position of the classical Islamic scholars on the spherical nature of the earth. He also categorically denies that he said that a person who says the earth is round is a disbeliever.

The letter represents a challenge to all those who have attributed these lies to Shaikh Ibn Baz. Whether they failed to verify sources due to sloppiness, or chose not to due to malice, they are required to retract their statements if they want to salvage any semblance of intellectual integrity.

Text of the Letter

From ‘Abdul-‘Aziz ibn ‘Abdullah ibn Baz to the honoured brother

May Allah direct you to what pleases Him. Aamin

Salamun alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu…

… As for what the magazine, as-Siyasah has published about me quoting from al-Bayan that was written by the writers of at-Tajamu’ at-Taqadumi in Egypt in regards to me denying the landing of man on the moon and me making takfir [to declare a person a disbeliever] of the one who says it or says that the earth is round or rotates - then it is a pure lie; it has no basis of authenticity. And perhaps the one who quoted it did not intend the lie but failed to verify the quote.

My statement is published and distributed and I explained the response to the one who denies the landing of man on the moon and the kufr [disbelief] of one who says it. Furthermore, I clarified that it is an obligation on the one who does not have knowledge to withhold and not to affirm or deny until some knowledge is attained which necessitate affirmation or denial.

Also, I affirm in the statement what I have quoted from the Allamah Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allah have mercy upon him, that which proves the affirmation of the roundness of the earth.

As far as its rotation, then I have denied it and explained the evidences denying it. However, I did not declare kufr upon the one who upholds it. I only declared kufr upon the one who says that the sun is stationary and does not run on a course because this statement collides with the clarity of the Noble Qur’an and the pure authentic Sunnah which both prove that the sun and the moon both run on a course…

Was-Salamu ‘alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

General Director of the Offices of General Research, Verdicts, Da’wah, and Guidance

(Ibn Baz)

This letter was issued from the office of the noble shaikh with the number: 1/2925 on 7/11/1397.

Source: <A href="http://www.ibnbaz.org.sa/Display.asp?f=bz01759">http://www.ibnbaz.org.sa/Display.asp?f=bz01759 (http://www.ibnbaz.org.sa/Display.asp?f=bz01759)

and:

Refuting the Lie Against Shaikh Ibn Baaz
Is the Earth Round or Flat?

By: Shahid Bin Waheed شاهد بن وحيد

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
الحمدلله رب العالمين والصلوة والسلام على اشرف الانبياء وسيدالمرسلين نبينا محمد صل ا لله عليه وعلى آله واصحابه وازواجه اجمعين - امابعد
Thanks to be Allaah, Sustainer of the Universe, and blessing and salutation to be the most distinguish of the Messengers and foremost among the Prophets, our Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allaah be on him and on his wives, children and Companions.

Forces for falsehood always spread the disinformation about Islaam and Glorious Qur’aan. One of their examples is the absurd lie about the flat earth and an alleged Fatawaa. Anti-Islaam forces selects parts of the Islaamic history and/or Qur’aanic teachings treating them as the whole, omitting the entire context from the subject. And then expect people to believe that their claim is true, while the leading parts of and controlling features of the Islaamic and/or Qur’aanic teachings are carefully suppressed. Following is a synopsis of what is being taught by the respected Shaikh Ibn Baaz رحمة الله عليه about the issue in question, which clearly impeaches the lies and slanders against the respected scholar of Islaam.

The Shaikh Ibn Baaz: According to the people knowledge (scholars of Islaam) the earth is round; for indeed Ibn Hazim and a group of other scholars mentioned that there is a consensus (unanimous agreement, Ijmaa') among the people of knowledge that it is round. This means that all of it is connected together thus making the form of the entire planet like a ball. However, Allaah has spread out surface for us and He has placed firm mountains upon it and placed the animals and the seas upon it as a mercy for us. For this reason, Allaah said: "And (do they not look) at the Earth, how it was made FLAT (Sutihat)." [Al-Ghaashiyyah (88): 20]

وَإِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ
WA- 'ILAA AL- 'ARD. KAYFA SUT.IH.AT
And at the earth, how it is spread out?

Therefore, it (the Earth) has been made flat for us in regards to its surface, so that people can live on it and so that people can be comfortable upon it.

The fact that it is round does not prevent that its surface has been made flat. This is because something that is round and very large, if it is made flat (its surface), then its surface will become very vast or broad (i.e. having a flat appearance). Yes."

This is the Fatawaa of the Shaikh Ibn Baaz about the earth's flatness and its roundness. So do not listen to those who lie against Islaam, Glorious Qur’aan and Scholars of Islaam. Shaikh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah be always please with him) was not some fool. In fact, such people are liars and slanderers at most, and their sole objective is to obscure and obfuscate the truth. As the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said in a Hadeeth recorded by Imaam Muslim, "It is sufficient to consider a man lying when he narrates everything that he hears.”

http://www.islam-is-the-only-solution.com/earth.htm

[MsWesterner]

I appreciate the effort you have made, but of course you know there is much written about the subject..........and I understand scholars also believed the earth was "flat" as did all people years ago.

[Ibn Sina]

I appreciate the effort you have made, but of course you know there is much written about the subject..........and I understand scholars also believed the earth was "flat" as did all people years ago.

Actually there was an agreement between scholars and astronomers that the Earth was indeed round:

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=38

[GothiKa]

MsWesterner has been defeated. End of story

[MsWesterner]

not at all....not at all Gothika.

isnt it true that there is lots of dispute/different interpretation regarding the wording in the Quran???

[GothiKa]

MsWesterner, I see you have not responded to MDK's questions. Must be a real shame losing to Muslims, no?

Prove that there are lots of dispute/different interpretation regarding those particular verses of the Quran

[MsWesterner]

remember how you yourself told me about something specifically!!! do you wish that I remind you on here?

[MsWesterner]

lose lol.....oh you do make me laugh.

[Ibn Sina]

MsWesterner, here's some advice, why not actually read the Quran on your own instead of posting some cut 'n' paste articles from anti-Islam polemicists? And yes, there are always different interpreations on the meaning of the Ayahs of the Quran

[MsWesterner]

of course there are.......and one only has to be on this very forum to know that, let alone read anything outside of here.

[MsWesterner]

I do read various parts of the Quran, and I can assure you its not from anti islam site.......although it would be fair to say that with any particular subject, one can look up the related verse on the internet.