STOP Muslims from taking part in Elections.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Assalam Alaykum


We need to be prepared in advance to save the Muslims from participating in coming general elections in the UK.

Inshalah i would like to see what activities brothers/sisters have done previously or are thinking of doing to create awareness for this.

I think every Muslim should raise the following points in discussing with muslims wanting to pariticipate in Kufr system.


Explain to them the nature and definition of Democracy.
Show them the contradiction between democracy with our Aqeedah.
Show them the danger of having any association with man made law, which is rule of man instead of rule of God, leading to Shirk Ta'a.
Show them that tactical voting will not solve any problems.
Expose the Modernist agenda.
Please add more points.

[Semantic]

Erm, plenty of qualified traditional scholars have indicated it is permissable to vote.

I think you're confusing the issue somewhat - even Qu'ranic injunctions are subject to the interpretations of man (our fiqh), so there is always a place for our input to adapt to circumstance (eg curtailment of a *hadd* punishment of chopping off of hands if you're in a famine for example). That is, unless you're Khwarij (see their disputations with Ali).

Still, I think you would do well to outline the differences between representative democracy (as opposed to full on democracy, which doesn't exist anywhere) and the shura based system of the Khalifah. Explanation of the nature and definition certainly seem to be required, but I would venture that relating it to the "man-made law" paradigm isn't the best way.

[dour]

If you do not like voting what do you want to replace it?

So if you do not want Muslims to vote, how do you want leaders elected? And what do you want done if the people did not like that leader?

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Thanks.

Semantic, with all due respect, I dont wish to turn this into another debate on the permissabiliy of participating in elections.

Please refer to another thread where this discussion took place.

The purpose of this thread is for those Muslims who care about the Muslim identity and consider themselves Muslims and believe in only the Islamic system. And wish to create awareness to explain to the average Muslim the harm in pariticpating in this.

I would really like input from those who carry this value.

Wasalaam

[Semantic]

I gave you some input on that from someone who's seen both sides of the coin.

In the end, if you want to tell them it's *Islamically* impermissable, it's your fatwa vs theirs. And there are plenty of fatwa which state it is permissable.

If you want to promulgate your view on another basis, for example that tactical voting is useless/harmful, that's a different story.

If you want to sell your ideal about an "Islamic" civil system vs a representative democracy, you should also get your facts/concepts right, or your message will be devalued.

I do of course take issue with your assumptions about Muslim identity and that there is harm in this, but oh vell :)

[sfvalley]

Thanks.

Semantic, with all due respect, I dont wish to turn this into another debate on the permissabiliy of participating in elections.

Please refer to another thread where this discussion took place.

The purpose of this thread is for those Muslims who care about the Muslim identity and consider themselves Muslims and believe in only the Islamic system. And wish to create awareness to explain to the average Muslim the harm in pariticpating in this.

I would really like input from those who carry this value.

Wasalaam[Edited- Keep stupid comments to youself, Thanks, Muslimah]

[Chained_Water]

You know what.. all I'm hearing is "voting voting voting"
blah blah blah

like the whole world depends on it..

it has LITTLE effect in reality.. because you have LITTLE choice in reality and even smaller say in anything.. democracy is a farce, it is not we the people choose, it is we the people put a cross on a paper to say which of the losers were would prefer from all of the losers we can possibly have..

I have voted, not in the general elections, but in local ones.. and it involves what, putting a cross on a paper and going back home..

there are people who act like it is the end of the world.. and people who act like it is THE most pivotal thing ever and the most important thing in thier lives, like they are waging some huge jihad by putting a cross on a paper.

get over it everyone!

:rolleyes:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I gave you some input on that from someone who's seen both sides of the coin.

In the end, if you want to tell them it's *Islamically* impermissable, it's your fatwa vs theirs. And there are plenty of fatwa which state it is permissable.

If you want to promulgate your view on another basis, for example that tactical voting is useless/harmful, that's a different story.

If you want to sell your ideal about an "Islamic" civil system vs a representative democracy, you should also get your facts/concepts right, or your message will be devalued.

I do of course take issue with your assumptions about Muslim identity and that there is harm in this, but oh vell :)

I have started raising this discussion in my local community and the reponse has been positive. Muslims in the community are not aware of these fatwas, its matter of sitting down with them and explaining the hukm and refuting democracy with its principles.

This wil inshalah be done on a large scale to really have an effect.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

You know what.. all I'm hearing is "voting voting voting"
blah blah blah

like the whole world depends on it..

it has LITTLE effect in reality.. because you have LITTLE choice in reality and even smaller say in anything.. democracy is a farce, it is not we the people choose, it is we the people put a cross on a paper to say which of the losers were would prefer from all of the losers we can possibly have..

I have voted, not in the general elections, but in local ones.. and it involves what, putting a cross on a paper and going back home..

there are people who act like it is the end of the world.. and people who act like it is THE most pivotal thing ever and the most important thing in thier lives, like they are waging some huge jihad by putting a cross on a paper.

get over it everyone!

:rolleyes:
I totally agree.

Excellent points there. Mashalah

The last paragraph you mentioned is an important one as some naive people have coined or termed putting a cross on the ballot paper as 'Political Jihad' :(

[Semantic]

If you don't mind me asking, which thread was it discussed?

As an aside, I won't be voting as I personally don't see much difference between the parties. Apathy would most likely be a good thing to appeal to as well ;)

[Salman Al-Farsi]

If you don't mind me asking, which thread was it discussed?

As an aside, I won't be voting as I personally don't see much difference between the parties. Apathy would most likely be a good thing to appeal to as well ;)

One of the threads in General, look for a very long one, on issue of voting.

Stick your vote for numer 3 :)

[Shades]

"At the next election if you have the right to vote use your vote wisely and do not vote for parties which damage Islam. Election days present that rare occasion where we are all equal. My vote, your vote is just as important and carries just as much weight as any vote cast by Tony Blair or David Blunkett.

Individually we can be powerful - it takes just one snowflake to cause an avalanche, but collectively we can be an unstoppable force." - Yvonne Ridley.

[Mary Carol]

Another poll with too few options.

I can't vote in the UK elections yet, but I will encourage every eligible voter to vote, and every one with an opinion on the candidates or the voting process to express it freely.

I have voted in local, state, and federal elections at every opportunity for the last 27 years. I treasure that right.

My foremothers fought for this right for me, as my forefathers conveniently forgot to guarantee this right until 1919 for it's women citizens in the United States.

I believe the women in the UK were guaranteed this right in some cases in 1918, with full guarantees given in 1928.

To use your vote is to use your voice.

To not use your vote is to remain silent.

And it is the squeeky wheel, which receives oil.

[dhakiyya]

Thanks.

Semantic, with all due respect, I dont wish to turn this into another debate on the permissabiliy of participating in elections.


Well why did you post this poll then? You know very well that many qualified scholars do not believe that it is haram to vote in elections, so posting such a one sided view for an issue where there is no clear argument in favour of your view is bound to start debate. In fact, some might say you are trying to silence the voices that disagree with you, even those of qualified scholars whose arguments are based purely on Qur'an and Sunnah.

In fact, having done the research myself, looking at opinions of many scholars of different madhhabs or none, there appears to be no evidence from Qur'an or Sunnah that voting is haram. The only evidence put forward that I have seen from the Sunnah that voting is haram is the fact that Muhammad :saw: refused to participate in the qureishi system in Mecca. in fact this example is grossly misleading as Muhammad :saw: was in fact offered a place in the system as a bribe, to make him renounce Islam. They were trying to silence him. This is not analagous to voting or standing in an election as a Muslim candidate. It is analagous to being offered a seat in the House of Lords (or any similar house of non-elected leaders) in return for renouncing Islam. It is perfectly possible for Muslims to vote in and stand in elections in non Muslim countries as Muslims and for Islamic parties (even if you have to start one up yourself). Therefore it is NOT the same situation that Muhammad :saw: was in in Macca when he was offered a place in their system.

In addition there are many examples of Muhammad :saw: co-operating with all kinds of non Muslims, and groups of non Muslims (Christians, Pagans and Jews) so I don't see how anyone can argue that participating in an election is wrong.

it is ALSO a sin to make something haram when in fact it is halal. And as I have yet to see any evidence that voting is haram, saying that it is haram would be committing a sin. In fact this is a very serious sin, similar to shirk. There are many verses in the Qur'an that says this for example 5:90-91, 16:116, 10:59, and several others.

In addition, it is obligatory on Muslims to do whatever is within their power to to fight against evil. "If you cannot fight against evil, then you must speak out against it, if you cannot speak out against it then you must make dua." (hadith)

Voting is a way of speaking out against evil if you use your vote to attempt to elect a candidate that is anti capitalist/anti USA/Israel. Even if the candidate does not get elected, you have taken the opportunity to speak out against capitalism and USA/Israel. Demonstrating is also a way of speaking out against these things, as are consumer boycotts.

AND it is an established principle in sharia3 law that of two evils you must choose the lesser, so even voting for a non Muslim candidate who supports Palestine who is standing against capitalist pro Israeli candidates would be considered the lesser of two evils, and voting for him/her is considered by many scholars preferable to not voting because by not voting you are saying that you don't care whether the person that gets in supports Israel or not)

Now I get VERY suspicious of the motives of whoever it is that is propagating the idea that it is haram to vote, to demonstrate etc, because the capitalists have a vested interest in silencing Muslims. And what better way to silence Muslims and stop that happening than propagate the idea that these forms of speaking out are haram. Many Muslims, however, seem to have taken their arguments on board wholesale without considering them carefully or checking the evidence. I have checked the evidence myself, looking at arguments from a whole range of scholars, and checking the events in Muhammad's :saw: life, only to find that those who argue that voting is haram have left out many crucial details.

Can anyone provide me an example from the Sunnah where Muhammad :saw: had the opportunity to speak out against evil but did not?

[dhakiyya]

You know what.. all I'm hearing is "voting voting voting"
blah blah blah

like the whole world depends on it..

it has LITTLE effect in reality.. because you have LITTLE choice in reality and even smaller say in anything.. democracy is a farce, it is not we the people choose, it is we the people put a cross on a paper to say which of the losers were would prefer from all of the losers we can possibly have..

I have voted, not in the general elections, but in local ones.. and it involves what, putting a cross on a paper and going back home..

there are people who act like it is the end of the world.. and people who act like it is THE most pivotal thing ever and the most important thing in thier lives, like they are waging some huge jihad by putting a cross on a paper.

get over it everyone!

:rolleyes:


That as may be BUT to make something haram when it is halal is a major sin.

Arguing about whether voting actually makes much difference is not the same as arguing whether it is halal or haram. In fact your arguments I would tend to agree with (though not entirely), the US democracy is a total farce, and the UK is not a lot better, though in the UK there is some tiny opportunities to make a difference if you know where to hit them. I see voting as a way of speaking out, and I believe in using every avaliable method of speaking out.

I totally agree that it is wrong for Muslims to think that jihad starts and ends with voting, as in fact it is just one tiny little thing that you can do, and there are much bigger and more important things that go a lot further.

Though if you live in an area where there are many Muslims, you should attempt to get a Muslim candidate in, IMO, because that would be one more voice in a position of power to speak out for the Muslims.

I will still argue against those that claim voting is haram however, because I think they are making a huge mistake and it is a serious sin to make haram what is halal.

[Sultan]

Democracy is a big farce. The only time people have any say is election time and then they are completely ignored. Does Labour heed the demands of its people-no, it does the opposite. Makes no difference who you vote for, they are all the same, with the same agendas. It's a big joke!

What this country needs is a benevolent dictatorship.

Prefarably with someone like me in power.

:D

[Kaiser]

Id vote for you Sultan

[Makki]

im going to vote but im not a modernist im just somebody who sees the reality that this country is a democracy where we choose our leaders by voting, i suggest others try and see the reality too :rolleyes:

[Huja Usman]

im going to vote but im not a modernist im just somebody who sees the reality that this country is a democracy where we choose our leaders by voting, i suggest others try and see the reality too :rolleyes:
awsome avatar you have akhi makki

may allah swt reward you

[Al-Nasser]

i thought that democracy is haram in Dar Al Islam only because the law of Dar Al Islam must be sharia so nothing should replace it...but what about Dar Al Kufr?

[Supernova Nebula]

Democracy=the overwhelming majority of the fools.. no wonder we have so many weird political leaders.

[Makki]

awsome avatar you have akhi makki

may allah swt reward you
shukran!

your's aint so bad either :up:

[dhakiyya]

i thought that democracy is haram in Dar Al Islam only because the law of Dar Al Islam must be sharia so nothing should replace it...but what about Dar Al Kufr?

Many scholars say that in a non Muslim country you should campaign/speak out for Muslims and the rights of Muslims, and against evil, oppression etc, for fair treatment of the poor, widows and orphans (including non Muslim poor, widows, orphans) etc and give charity and do good works, and that this includes using the political system in the country (e.g. voting) to influence things in favour of the Muslims, those who help the poor etc, and those scholars use the examples from Muhammad :saw: attempting to work with non Muslims to achieve these things to support their arguments, in addition to verses in the qur'an about enjoining good, forbidding evil, giving charity etc.

Then there are those scholars who say that you should not live in/among non-Muslims at all, and use the verses in the Qur'an about not taking kaafiroon for your friends or helpers. However, arguing against this position there is one verse in the Qur'an where it says it's okay to deal justly with non Muslims who do not fight you or drive you from your homes. There are also the examples from Muhammad's life where he co-operated with non Muslims in order to achieve a society run on Allah's laws.

[Kaiser]

Remember: If you create a system, which even an idiot can use, then only an idiot would want to use it.

[Al-Nasser]

Title of Fatwa
Voting in a Majority non-Muslim Country

Question of Fatwa
Would it be alright for Muslims to register and vote for candidates in the United States? The Muslim bashers would love us not to vote. Now, some are writing articles on the net trying to scare us by saying it is shirk to even register and acknowledge the way of the kuffar or permissibility of voting for creating laws? What do you say?

Name of Mufti
Group of Muftis

Content of Reply
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Answering the question in point, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, states:

"Absolutely, it is not a matter of black and white. The structure of society in this country is a very complicated and sophisticated one. Unfortunately, we weigh things as if we were in Makkah, Cairo, or Sanaa. Aspirations of people in Muslim countries are always reinstating Islam to rule government and people. This is why people back in Muslim countries believe that any Member of Parliament or minister of government should work for enforcing Shari`ah as the only law and sovereignty of that country.

In the US, religion is not a priority in politics. On the contrary, politicians are secular in demonstrating what they are targeting. Of that secularism, we have perhaps more than 60% of our welfare and interests to be run through a polling system. Schooling, sanitation, zoning, social services, police, court, medication, finance, business, sports, recreation, etc. are run by people that are elected to office. If you have a vote power, you have the legitimacy to reach and accomplish anything of your needs or goals. Without it, you are a dead battery. Can you tell me where is the Qur'an or hadith that says to me, "Don’t help for these affairs?" Are you going to tell me that I am loyal or giving allegiance to the kuffar (non-Muslims) because I want to lead myself in the way that can get a school for my children, good sanitation for my neighborhood or good cooperation with the police to protect me?

When it comes to making a law by congressman, senators, or any other politician, I should try my best to oppose anything contradictory to Shari`ah. In Fiqh and principles of Fiqh, we know that it is a big step in the right direction to lessen evildoings. They say in Fiqh, 'Removal of an evildoing is much better than gaining any welfare.'"

In this context, the erudite Muslim scholar of Bahrain, Sheikh Nizam Ya`qubi, adds:

"In the matter of elections and voting we must look at what is in the best interest of the whole community (maslahah) and what is the less of the two evils (akhaff ad-Dararayn).

Looking into the matter from this angle, many contemporary scholars are of the opinion that you should practice your right to vote. If Muslims do not do that and there numbers are constantly increasing they will never have the power of lobbying that other groups have gained. This will lead to the benefit of Muslims in these countries in the future. It must be stated however that voting for a person does not mean endorsing every act or policy of the candidate. These facts are well known in all democratic societies!"



You can also read:


Elections in non-Muslim Countries: Role of Muslims (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=78491)


Muslims’ Participation in US Elections (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=106769)


Muslims Participating in the US Local Councils (http://islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=62236)


Allah Almighty knows best.

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=14795

[Mary Carol]

btw, I can't tick off a choice to vote in this poll, until I get some daleel as to whether such participation is halal.

[yorkshireman]

Assalam Alaykum


We need to be prepared in advance to save the Muslims from participating in coming general elections in the UK.

Inshalah i would like to see what activities brothers/sisters have done previously or are thinking of doing to create awareness for this.

I think every Muslim should raise the following points in discussing with muslims wanting to pariticipate in Kufr system.


Explain to them the nature and definition of Democracy.
Show them the contradiction between democracy with our Aqeedah.
Show them the danger of having any association with man made law, which is rule of man instead of rule of God, leading to Shirk Ta'a.
Show them that tactical voting will not solve any problems.
Expose the Modernist agenda.
Please add more points.


Perhaps a poster campaign? Clean limbed British tommy charging at fritz with a headline "Did he give his all..." then horizontal split to sinister asiaitic bearded sort marking a cross against "jihad" on a ballot form with tagline "..so that he can vote?" You could put it all under that cover line "Oppose Muslim Enfranchisement" or a more simplistic "No vote for Muslims". The Nazis disenfranchisement of Jews and the methods used to achieve that climate in which their disenfranchisement was acceptable should also give you some pointers.

(PS - as I understand it you are a Muslim, why are you seeking to disenfranchise your co-religionists? Sounds like a damn silly idea to me.)

[yorkshireman]

To avoid the possibility of Muslims voting and participating in other "kufr" measures could be introduced to insist they take easilly identifiable Muslim names, thus preventing them participating in "kufr" by stealth. (OK, this already happens in a self imposed manner in most cases)

Regulation Requiring Jews
To Change Their Names
(August 17, 1938)

Second Regulation for the Implementation of the
Law Regarding the Changing of Family Names and Given Names

§ 2

1) Insofar as Jews have given names other than those which they are permitted to bear according to § 1,* they are required as from January 1, 1939, to take an additional given name; males will take the given name Israel, females the given name Sara....

Berlin, August 17, 1938

The Reich Minister of the Interior

signed for Dr. Stuckart

The Reich Minister of Justice

Dr. Guertner

Reichsgesetzblatt, I, 1938, p. 1044.

* The reference is to conspicuously Jewish names, which were published in a separate list.

[yorkshireman]

This isprobably the best one for your aims Salman Al-Farsi. It prevented the group in question voting or holding public office, thus ensureing they will not participate in "kufr".

The Reich Citizenship Law: First Regulation
(November 14, 1935)

Article 1

1. Until further regulations regarding citizenship papers are issued, all subjects of German or kindred blood, who possessed the right to vote in the Reichstag elections at the time the Citizenship Law came into effect, shall for the time being possess the rights of Reich citizens. The same shall be true of those to whom the Reich Minister of the Interior, in conjunction with the Deputy of the Fuhrer, has given preliminary citizenship.

2. The Reich Minister of the Interior, in conjunction with the Deputy of the Fuhrer, can withdraw the preliminary citizenship.

Article 2

1 The regulations in Article 1 are also valid for Reich subjects of mixed Jewish blood.

2 An individual of mixed Jewish blood is one who is descended from one or two grandparents who were racially full Jews, in so far as he or she does not count as a Jew according to Article 5, paragraph 2 One grandparent shall be considered as full-blooded if he or she belonged to the Jewish religious community.

Article 3

Only the Reich citizen, as bearer of full political rights, exercises the right to vote in political affairs or can hold public office. The Reich Minister of the Interior, or any agency empowered by him, can make exceptions during the transition period, with regard to occupation of public office. The affairs of religious organizations will not be affected.

Article 4

1. A Jew cannot be a citizen of the Reich. He has no right to vote in political affairs and he cannot occupy public office.

2. Jewish officials will retire as of December 31, 1935. If these officials served at the front in the world war, either for Germany or her allies, they will receive in full, until they reach the age limit, the pension to which they were entitled according to the salary they last received; they will, however, not advance in seniority. After reaching the age limit, their pensions will be calculated anew, according to the salary last received, on the basis of which their pension was computed.

3. The affairs of religious organizations will not be affected.

4. The conditions of service of teachers in Jewish public schools remain unchanged until new regulations for the Jewish school systems are issued.

Article 5

1. A Jew is anyone who is descended from at least three grandparents who are racially full Jews. Article 2, para. 2, second sentence will apply.

2. A Jew is also one who is descended from two full Jewish parents, if (a) he belonged to the Jewish religious community at the time this law was issued, or joined the community later, (b) he was married to a Jewish person, at the time the law was issued, or married one subsequently, (c) he is the offspring of a marriage with a Jew, in the sense of Section I, which was contracted after the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor became effective, (d) he is the offspring of an extramarital relationship with a Jew, according to Section I, and will be born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.

Article 6

1. Requirements for the pureness of blood as laid down in Reich Law or in orders of the NSDAP and its echelons--not covered in Article 5—will not be affected.

2. Any other requirements for the pureness of blood, not covered in Article 5, can be made only by permission of the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Deputy Fuhrer. If any such demands have been made, they will be void as of January 1, 1936, if they have not been requested by the Reich Minister of the Interior in agreement with the Deputy Fuhrer. These requests must be made by the Reich Minister of the Interior.

Article 7

The Fuhrer and Reich Chancellor can grant exemptions from the regulations laid down in the law.

[jahil]

I have started raising this discussion in my local community and the reponse has been positive. Muslims in the community are not aware of these fatwas, its matter of sitting down with them and explaining the hukm and refuting democracy with its principles.

This wil inshalah be done on a large scale to really have an effect.
I think muslims should vote and vote to defend their interests in this country! there is nothing un-Islammic about voting! Can you prove it? Have you forgotton that Abu Bakr and Ali were elected by people (not by Allah), the former by group of Sahabas and the later with the popular support.

Don't mislead muslims by you twisted ideas and cause more problems among the muslim community by your immature ideas!

My advice to muslims: Vote as two muslim Khulafas were elected by voting not by selection!

[jahil]

Democracy=the overwhelming majority of the fools.. no wonder we have so many weird political leaders.
What is the opposite of democracy: = dictatorship = Husni Mubarak, Pervez Musharaf, Saddam Hussain, Bashar Al Haafiz, King Abdullah, King Fahad, Col. Qadhaafi, and many dozens more!

Even rulers of Ottoman Empire were bucn of thugs, the dictators!

[Umm Layth]

lol

Last general elections we held a banquet invited all our muslims friends.

But Inshalah this time around, we will compile a domcument with with all the angles as to why Muslims shouldnt vote covered and present it to all our friends. Even non-muslims at work and those around the village will not be voting since they feel bad about voting labour. :)

[Umm Layth]

I think muslims should vote and vote to defend their interests in this country! there is nothing un-Islammic about voting! Can you prove it? Have you forgotton that Abu Bakr and Ali were elected by people (not by Allah), the former by group of Sahabas and the later with the popular support.

Don't mislead muslims by you twisted ideas and cause more problems among the muslim community by your immature ideas!

My advice to muslims: Vote as two muslim Khulafas were elected by voting not by selection!

you should change your name.

Voting is not haraam, voting for or within a kufr system is haraam. When people voted or gave Bayah to Abu bakr or later Khulafah they voted for a ruler to implement Islam, whereas in uk you are voting for a man to implement kufr over you.

[Mary Carol]

Participating in our Municipal Elections

| Sheikh Sa`ûd al-Funaysân|

Some Muslims in Saudi Arabia eye elections suspiciously, as something alien and foreign, imported to us from the West. Others dismiss them as something being held for appearances only, without any substance behind them. These notions might cause some people not to encourage the elections, forget about their participating in them. However, it seems to me that those people are seriously mistaken. Elections are the main avenue for our realizing the principle of consultation that Allah has enjoined upon us when He said:

“And their affairs are determined by consultation among themselves.” [Sûrah al-Shûrâ: 38]

This verse is general and applies to all people; it applies to the ruler along with the masses as well as to the members of the population among themselves, and even to the husband and wife in their domestic affairs. Allah says:

“And if they (the parents) both desire weaning through mutual consent and consultation between them, there is no blame upon either of them.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 233]

Serving the people and fulfilling their daily needs is one of the most emphatic obligations in Islamic Law. Indeed, even caring for the needs of animals and maintaining their pathways is recognized as a collective obligation and an act of devotion.

`Umar b. al-Khattâb, the Caliph, said:

“I swear by Allah! If a sheep were to stumble in Iraq, I ould expect Allah to call me to account for it on the Day of Judgment, asking: Why did you not make the roads suitable for it, O Umar!”

How much more important is serving of the needs of the populace and keeping their neighborhoods clean?

When the Prophet (peace be upon him was asked about good works, he said:

“Do not belittle any good deed, even if you but give someone a stretch or rope or the thong of a sandal, or pour out some water from a pitcher to give to someone to drink, or remove some harmful impediment from the road…” [Musnad Ahmad]

These words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) show us the importance of our individual, voluntary efforts at meeting the needs of others. From this we should be able t grasp how much more important general services are, services that Islamic Law makes incumbent upon society to carry out, like road maintenance, street lighting, and supplying basic necessities to society, like electricity, water, communications, and public transport to prevent urban congestion? We can also add to this the maintenance of parklands, recreation facilities, and public grounds. Then we have the supervision of markets and enforcing quality standards in the consumer goods that are offered for sale. These are but some of the duties that fall under the authority and jurisdiction of the municipal government, which either carries out these duties itself, or in conjunction with other agencies.

The corpus of Islamic Law and the obligations that it sets forth are studied collectively by people who consult with one another about them. These rulings are also carried out collectively. The opinion arrived at collectively is better than the opinion arrived at by a single individual. For instance, scholars of hadîth reject as strange any narration of a hadîth that runs contrary to way the majority of narrators quote the hadîth, even if that narration is conveyed to us by someone who is reliable and trustworthy.

Even though general elections are not happening as yet in our country, it is right to start with municipal elections. It is the norm of life that things come in stages. We can benefit from the experience of those who came before us as well as from our own experience. I believe that this experiment will have a positive effect upon all of our people, and particularly for the voters and the candidates.

The most important qualities for a candidate to have are the following:

1. He must be sincere to Allah, because love for others is a form of worship and the candidate seeks appointment to a post where he will really have to put this into practice. He must “love for his brother what he loves for himself.”

2. He must be a person of ethics and good moral conduct. He will have to be positively involved in many programs and the activities that are vitally important to the public welfare.

3. The dictates of loyalty to his country and to its people require him to work to serve the general welfare and not his personal interests or the interests of his ethnic group, ideology, or region.

4. The candidate who is elected needs to speak in the spirit of those with him in the municipality and not in a high-handed, individualistic tone.

It is my sincere hope that these elected municipal councils – to provide tangible proof to the general populace – will hasten to engage the local citizenry in its activities. I believe they should establish community centers that provide cultural, social, and recreation al activities, as well as citizen councils through which the general public can share in policy and budgetary decision-making.

It is critical that people of the country – especially the younger generation – become involved in these elections for the municipal councils, either as candidates or as voters, if they are going to be a success. They cannot remain ambivalent or negative in their attitudes after the nation has called for them and adopted them.

These elections – Allah willing – will be followed by other elections. However, when this will be is contingent on the success or failure of these elections. Therefore, it is upon every citizen to get a voter’s card and then get to know who the candidates are and then chose those whom he believes are the best for the job.

We are optimistic about this attempt and what will follow of broader elections in the future that will be of equal or greater importance.

We wish to thank everyone who is making a contribution to these elections and is encouraging people to participate in them. Allah helps His servants as long as they are engaged in helping one another.

http://islamtoday.net/newenglish/showme2.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=729

[Sayf]

you should change your name.

Voting is not haraam, voting for or within a kufr system is haraam. When people voted or gave Bayah to Abu bakr or later Khulafah they voted for a ruler to implement Islam, whereas in uk you are voting for a man to implement kufr over you.
Please revoke your passport and stop collecting child benefits lol

[Sayf]

Also, what kind of Poll is this???? Is this Poll according to Islam, Since when does voting for people has to be with their names known to everyone?

Also I think you gave wrong options, "I am a modernist, I will Vote." well i think that should be changed to "I am a Muslim, & living in the UK I will take part in the Political Jihad for the sake of Islam and Muslims"

[jahil]

If you coudn't convince your co-religionist, then run another campaigne asking them to leave European countries and then see what response you would get! If they left then both the muslims and the non-muslims would be better off with out each other! But these muslims who if leave would cause more havocs in their respective countries as they would NOT get the same quality services so ultimatley they would en up in the hands of sectarian mullahs and in this way they would start slaughtering each other making the task of their governments easier to deal with povert alleviation programmes because these orthdox muslims would have already killed thosands of muslim poors!

Not a bad campainge by you though!

[Umm Layth]

Title of Fatwa
Voting in a Majority non-Muslim Country

Question of Fatwa
Would it be alright for Muslims to register and vote for candidates in the United States? The Muslim bashers would love us not to vote. Now, some are writing articles on the net trying to scare us by saying it is shirk to even register and acknowledge the way of the kuffar or permissibility of voting for creating laws? What do you say?

Name of Mufti
Group of Muftis

Content of Reply
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.


Dear questioner, we would like to thank you for the great confidence you place in us, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake.

Answering the question in point, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti, member of the North American Fiqh Council, states:

"Absolutely, it is not a matter of black and white. The structure of society in this country is a very complicated and sophisticated one. Unfortunately, we weigh things as if we were in Makkah, Cairo, or Sanaa. Aspirations of people in Muslim countries are always reinstating Islam to rule government and people. This is why people back in Muslim countries believe that any Member of Parliament or minister of government should work for enforcing Shari`ah as the only law and sovereignty of that country.

In the US, religion is not a priority in politics. On the contrary, politicians are secular in demonstrating what they are targeting. Of that secularism, we have perhaps more than 60% of our welfare and interests to be run through a polling system. Schooling, sanitation, zoning, social services, police, court, medication, finance, business, sports, recreation, etc. are run by people that are elected to office. If you have a vote power, you have the legitimacy to reach and accomplish anything of your needs or goals. Without it, you are a dead battery. Can you tell me where is the Qur'an or hadith that says to me, "Don’t help for these affairs?" Are you going to tell me that I am loyal or giving allegiance to the kuffar (non-Muslims) because I want to lead myself in the way that can get a school for my children, good sanitation for my neighborhood or good cooperation with the police to protect me?

When it comes to making a law by congressman, senators, or any other politician, I should try my best to oppose anything contradictory to Shari`ah. In Fiqh and principles of Fiqh, we know that it is a big step in the right direction to lessen evildoings. They say in Fiqh, 'Removal of an evildoing is much better than gaining any welfare.'"

In this context, the erudite Muslim scholar of Bahrain, Sheikh Nizam Ya`qubi, adds:

"In the matter of elections and voting we must look at what is in the best interest of the whole community (maslahah) and what is the less of the two evils (akhaff ad-Dararayn).

Looking into the matter from this angle, many contemporary scholars are of the opinion that you should practice your right to vote. If Muslims do not do that and there numbers are constantly increasing they will never have the power of lobbying that other groups have gained. This will lead to the benefit of Muslims in these countries in the future. It must be stated however that voting for a person does not mean endorsing every act or policy of the candidate. These facts are well known in all democratic societies!"



You can also read:


Elections in non-Muslim Countries: Role of Muslims (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=78491)


Muslims’ Participation in US Elections (http://www.islam-online.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=106769)


Muslims Participating in the US Local Councils (http://islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=62236)


Allah Almighty knows best.

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=14795

Brother Nasser, I am very disappointed.

since you trust teh fatwa council so much, why dont you also ask them for a fatwa regarding your favourite superhero Zarqawi and better still ask them regarding their stance on jihad in iraq and other places.

I am surprised that when it comes to issues of muslim countires you would take fatwa from Taliban, but in this you want to take fatwa from the modernists.

Are you confused? Or just the case that you like bit of action so you keep updates with action in iraq?

Since any govt that comes in uk will not change its policies towards middle-east or Iraq as it was the case in the US.

Mr Qaradhawi is chummy with Ken Livingstone ...I am sure he wouldnt say anything against his paymaster adn would give fatwas urging muslims to vote for his party.

Waslaam

[Mary Carol]

Question: Are Muslims allowed to participate in voting in a non-Muslim country's elections? Can Muslims run for election in such a country?

Answered by: Sheikh Salman al-Oadah

I hold the opinion that it is lawful to participate in elections, as this may reduce suffering, and it is a way to choose the better among the availible candidates. I believe participating in elections will, in any event, contribute to the reduction of evil and be a forum for countering bad policies and exposing their deficiencies, as well as being an opportunity to present proposals of a different kind that may help people.

As for participation in politics itself, we should consider that if the parliaments and congresses of these countries do not have any Muslim members, then this will pave the way for the opposition to come forth with their harmful views and policies, which will consequently be incorporated into the laws of their countries and bring harm to the Muslims.

Therefore, it is better to endeavor to face these views before they become laws which will be much more difficult to revoke once they are passed.

I hold this opinion to participate in elections and to vote for those who seem to be good or at least less harmful than others.

However, there is another opinion on this matter held by some prominent scholars. This issue is a matter of disagreement among scholars.

And Allah knows best.

http://www.islamtoday.net/newenglish/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=509&main_cat_id=24

[Umm Layth]

Please revoke your passport and stop collecting child benefits lol
Child benifits?

I think you are confusing me with your mom?

unfortunetly we are natives, so unlike your family we didnt come here for the handouts.

[Sayf]

Child benifits?

I think you are confusing me with your mom?

unfortunetly we are natives, so unlike your family we didnt come here for the handouts.
ah this is a HT member which hs sooo much respect for her mother in Islam :up: nice one my Sister, just goes to show your disrespect to those who do not believe in your type of Islam.

[jahil]

Please revoke your passport and stop collecting child benefits lol
Well said!

[Umm Layth]

ah this is a HT member which hs sooo much respect for her mother in Islam :up: nice one my Sister, just goes to show your disrespect to those who do not believe in your type of Islam.
I am not a HT member, I am Freelance.
And give me your mom's number cuz I want to ask her if she ever claimed Child benifet ?

If she hasnt than I will apologise to her.

[Sayf]

I am not a HT member, I am Freelance.
And give me your mom's number cuz I want to ask her if she ever claimed Child benifet ?

If she hasnt than I will apologise to her.
No such thing in a freelance the way your talking my dear sister, believe me no child benefits here, but what about the passport, next time have the manners not to bring any ones mother in a discussion.

It just shows your un-islamic manners ukhti, and I forgve you on this one, and believe me I ain't a type of guy who lets anyone who disrespects my mother.

[Mary Carol]

Do not say about what your lying tongues describe:
‘This is halal and this is haram,’
inventing lies against Allah.
Those who invent lies against Allah are not successful —
a brief enjoyment,
then they will have a painful punishment.

~An-Nahl 16:116

[jahil]

Child benifits?

I think you are confusing me with your mom?

unfortunetly we are natives, so unlike your family we didnt come here for the handouts.So being a native (aboriginals!) you are not getting any hand outs at all!!! I will doubt it. The natives are more spoiled and hence more prone to this dependency culture of handouts. While the immigrants (non-natives/aliens) are more hard working and contribute equally to economy of your NATIVE COUNTRY. Plus in Islam you don't talk about native or non-natives!

The bottom line here is: Muslims you should vote and don't let the religious zealots to take you as a hostage!

In few days time Eid is coming and you will see the real charactor of these Jahiloon when they divide muslims in the same area and in the same house to have two, three differents eids!

They are getting their bootys from the Saudi mentors after all!

[Ahlam]

Do not say about what your lying tongues describe:
‘This is halal and this is haram,’
inventing lies against Allah.
Those who invent lies against Allah are not successful —
a brief enjoyment,
then they will have a painful punishment.

~An-Nahl 16:116

Sister Mariam speaks of wisdom so please take this into account.
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Umm Layth]

No such thing in a freelance the way your talking my dear sister, believe me no child benefits here, but what about the passport, next time have the manners not to bring any ones mother in a discussion.

It just shows your un-islamic manners ukhti, and I forgve you on this one, and believe me I ain't a type of guy who lets anyone who disrespects my mother.
I dont need your forgiveness.

Mr Sayf you made the accusation first on claiming child benifit.

I dont even know why you are in this thread, I think Salman al-farsi made it clear why he started this thread, so now just go back to your own world of kuffar sucking...and worshiping George Galloway.

Please dont bother responding to this.

Thanks

[jahil]

I dont need your forgiveness.

Mr Sayf you made the accusation first on claiming child benifit.

I dont even know why you are in this thread, I think Salman al-farsi made it clear why he started this thread, so now just go back to your own world of kuffar sucking...and worshiping George Galloway.

Please dont bother responding to this.

Thanks

...long live GEORGE GALLOWAY!

[jahil]

I dont need your forgiveness.

Mr Sayf you made the accusation first on claiming child benifit.

I dont even know why you are in this thread, I think Salman al-farsi made it clear why he started this thread, so now just go back to your own world of kuffar sucking...and worshiping George Galloway.

Please dont bother responding to this.

Thanks
These are kuffar who are mainly helping PSUNAMIS victims by their actions while muslims are having PSUNAMIS IN THEIR DISCUSSIONS ONLY!

[Umm Layth]

These are kuffar who are mainly helping PSUNAMIS victims by their actions while muslims are having PSUNAMIS IN THEIR DISCUSSIONS ONLY!
Helping Muslims really?

They are the ones who left Muslims unable to defend themselves after sucking all their resources.

Secondly refer to the thread 'Missionery Watch' to know what else they are doing to muslims alongside giving aid.

[jahil]

Helping Muslims really?

They are the ones who left Muslims unable to defend themselves after sucking all their resources.

Secondly refer to the thread 'Missionery Watch' to know what else they are doing to muslims alongside giving aid.
Don't worry about them you do your bit and help muslims by raising awareness among them so that they could distinguish between benefical and harmful , between truthful and hypocrite etc not by stoping them from voting, it would only harm them!

[dour]

If you do not like voting what do you want to replace it?

So if you do not want Muslims to vote, how do you want leaders elected? And what do you want done if the people did not like that leader?
for those who say they are against voting, what is your answers?

[Ahlam]

Asalamu Alaykum

Sister Umm and brother Sayf...show an example to others...i'm more mature than both of you and yet younger....we all have different views. Bring forth evidence to back your views instead of seating there making sarcastic comments about one another and accusing others of being a hypocrite...sister that is a dangerous thing to say.

sorry for sounding annoying!

[Sayf]

I have seen my mistake ukhti and my mistake was wording my sentence wrongly, what I should of stated was "If you have a passport then please revoke it and if you claim child benefits then please don't bother" because you are living off the kufr system.

I apologise for my mistake and I ask forgivness from my dear Sister :),

How is that for an example coming out and seeing your mistake and then asking for forgivness?

Also Sister Umm you are doing the same thing which I did (accusing), anyway have to go pray inshAllah will talk about this afterwards.

Allah Hafiz and Sister Ahlam Jazakillah khair for bringing this up, I was about to do it but thought id wait but thought now is the best time.

[Ahlam]

Asalamu Alaykum

I should be the police officer of ummah, stopping the arguments, acting mature blah blah, jks, lol.

Allah (swt) is oft-forgiving and merciful akhi Sayf...those who seek refugee in him are truly those who will prosper in this life and the hereafter.

sorry for going slightly off-topic here.

[Sayf]

JAzakillah khair no carry on ukhti we learn from our mistakes and people show you your mistakes with their kind words.

[parvez]

I will vote in the election but I didn't vote in this poll because it was biased ! I don't consider myself as a modernist no matter what YOU say about that :)

[parkman]

A British point of view.

If you refuse to vote you deny yourself a say in how this country is
governed. I accept the argument that the parties vying for power all
seem remarkably similar but that does not change the fact that you
have a choice.

There are so many reasons why you should vote. Not least the fact that
you could vote for representatives of your own choosing; those who
would (for example) advance the interests of Muslim communities in
Britain.

And, as was stated before, the fact that you vote for a particular
candidate does not mean that you endorse all of his/her policies, let
alone those of any Party. :)

[dhakiyya]

And I hope people are thinking seriously about Allah's warnings about making haram what is halal, there are several verses in the Qur'an saying this, including the one Mariam posted, and including the ones I referred to in an earlier post, and some others in addition to those....... if you think voting is a bad idea, so be it........ but to say it's haram.... well then you are committing a BIG sin, because there is no evidence from Qur'an or Sunnah to suggest voting is haram, or that participating in non Muslim systems in non Muslim countries in order to enjoin good and forbid evil, or in order to promote Islam in that country is haram. In fact many would say those things were beneficial and good things to do. After all, enjoining good and forbidding evil is obligatory on Muslims, as is promoting Islam. The only argument thenf is the best way to do this.

Umm Layth, I can't bring myself to vote for labour either, nor have I ever suggested anyone should. However, saying that it is a bad idea to vote labour, and saying that it is haram to take part in elections in non Muslim countries are two very different things. Please be very careful what you are saying because it is a big sin to make haram what is halal.

Whether it is a good idea to vote would depend entirely on the candidates standing, and the situation in that area. If there is no-one in your area that is suitable to vote for (e.g. they are all capitalists, supporters of Israel or other oppressors etc) then it is, in my opinion, better to turn up and trash the ballot paper to show your contempt to the system, than to not vote, which will be seen by the establishment as you not caring who gets in. In the recent Palestinian elections, Hamas told Palestinians to vote, and that if they didn't like any of the candidates they should return a blank ballot paper. This was despite the fact that they were not putting forward a candidate because of their suspicion of interference in favour of Abbas by Israel/USA.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

With all due respect, I am saying this again, I would like to keep this forum for those who concur that voting and participating in democracy is haram and would like to explain this to community.

If you would like to debate this matter, there is already a thread in the gernal section, I would encourage you to post there.

jazakallahu khayr

[yorkshireman]

With all due respect, I am saying this again, I would like to keep this forum for those who concur that voting and participating in democracy is haram and would like to explain this to community.

If you would like to debate this matter, there is already a thread in the gernal section, I would encourage you to post there.

jazakallahu khayr


You do know your sig is saying that democracy is the best form of government thus far practiced by man don't you?

[Reema]

You do know your sig is saying that democracy is the best form of government thus far practiced by man don't you?

hahahahahahha:D nicely put;)

[faqir]

“Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.” Winston Churchill
You do know your sig is saying that democracy is the best form of government thus far practiced by man don't you? lol!

I hadn't read this signature until now :D

Akhi Salman al-Farsi, here is the full quote of your Churchill - think about it deeply:

“Many forms of government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time. - Winston Churchill, 1947




You shouldn't promote this nonsensical statement - the best government implemented to date is that of our beloved Nabi salallahu alayhi wasalam. I suggest you change your signature.

Wasalam.

[dhakiyya]

With all due respect, I am saying this again, I would like to keep this forum for those who concur that voting and participating in democracy is haram and would like to explain this to community.

If you would like to debate this matter, there is already a thread in the gernal section, I would encourage you to post there.

jazakallahu khayr


So I'm supposed to remain silent when I see people not only making haram what is halal, but attempting to promote this widely within the Muslim community?

If you don't want debate, don't post such provocative polls which suggest that anyone who disagrees with you must be a "modernist", even though there are many qualified scholars that disagree with you and base their arguments entirely on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

My signiture is just a joke...

[abu yusaf]

I think Akhi Salman, we should discuss the capitalist system which all political parties adhere to and which is the basis of their manifesto that they are presenting to the people (including Muslims) at the elections. In particular we should highlight the contradiction to Islam of these solution contained therein and then highlight what Islam has to say on these issue. Some core issues are:

Freedom<O:p></O:p>
Pension crises<O:p></O:p>
Care in Old age<O:p></O:p>
Housing<O:p></O:p>
Foreign trade<O:p></O:p>
Colonialism.<O:p></O:p>
Crime<O:p></O:p>

As an example there is a big problem of binge drinking in this country and the government and other parties are proposing to allow pubs and clubs to open more hours in an attempt to stop people spilling on to the streets all at once highly intoxicated, causing violence and crime. The issue here is not the opening or closing time, but that the people really believe that it is their freedom to drink as they please and that government, which on one hand promotes and collect taxes from the drinks industry, should not then on the other hand restrict their freedom to drink. We should highlight to Muslims that in Islam we do not have the concept of individual freedom but that we are bound to the halal and haram. Therefore no capitalist government can solve this problem unless it admits that the concepts of freedom are wrong and of course they will not do this as this is an intrinsically part of their aqueedah. So if Muslims vote they are infact endorsing these un Islamic solutions.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Ukhti this maybe the opinion of some scholars who have a presence on the internet, or others who are bigged up by media, who have somehow made a big base of audience on the internet, since its convinient to get the right fatwa by clicking a few buttons.

However vast majority are in agreement that its haraam to participate such except a few such as the modernist soufi trend, modernist wahabbi trend adn the modernist ikhwani trend, all of them are recieving benifets from the govt weather in forms of grants for thier institutions, public handouts like MCB, recognition of their institution and there is currently a big bid for who will get the new 'Representative of Msulims title'.

I know most of these ulema, adn according to my own research ..i cannot put my trust in any of them in this matter.

I am not the only one who follows this opinion,.

I dont wish to go round and round in circles, please highjack another thread.

Barakallahu feek



So I'm supposed to remain silent when I see people not only making haram what is halal, but attempting to promote this widely within the Muslim community?

If you don't want debate, don't post such provocative polls which suggest that anyone who disagrees with you must be a "modernist", even though there are many qualified scholars that disagree with you and base their arguments entirely on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

[dhakiyya]

not all parties support the capitalist system, some are dedicatedly anti-capitalist, and there is nothing to prevent Muslims from starting up an Islamic party whose policy it is to impliment shari3a law.

By not voting you are also endorsing unIslamic solutions because by not voting you are saying you don't care who wins, even if they are pro capitalist pro zionists and pro all kinds of haram things.

[Mary Carol]

So I'm supposed to remain silent when I see people not only making haram what is halal, but attempting to promote this widely within the Muslim community?

If you don't want debate, don't post such provocative polls which suggest that anyone who disagrees with you must be a "modernist", even though there are many qualified scholars that disagree with you and base their arguments entirely on the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Sis, Ummah.com is open to the public, that means that all opinions are given a voice, within the site's own restrictions.

The thread was posted in a public forum at the site, therefore any member is free to respond as they see fit, offering personal opinion, or daleel from scholars.

Perhaps the brother could ask for a private forum where his threads would only be open to his own pre-selected population whose opinions coincide with his own?

I think that would be an equitable solution.

[abu yusaf]

not all parties support the capitalist system, some are dedicatedly anti-capitalist, and there is nothing to prevent Muslims from starting up an Islamic party whose policy it is to impliment shari3a law.

By not voting you are also endorsing unIslamic solutions because by not voting you are saying you don't care who wins, even if they are pro capitalist pro zionists and pro all kinds of haram things.
So if you vote for labor, conservative or the lib dems, you don't vote for a pro zionist policy, continued war on Islam and all manners of other evils, where as if I don't commit haram by not voting I am endorsing all these policies? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

And I don't think there are any, anti capitalist parties unless you are saying that respect is a communist party?<o:p></o:p>

[dhakiyya]

Ukhti this maybe the opinion of some scholars who have a presence on the internet, or others who are bigged up by media, who have somehow made a big base of audience on the internet, since its convinient to get the right fatwa by clicking a few buttons.

Sorry bro, but those accusation do NOT apply to the majority of scholars that have the opinion that voting is halal.

It seems you believe that everyone is a modernist who doesn't agree with you. Yet when you read their arguments, it's all based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and it's all verifiable when you go and check the evidence. Hardly the actions of modernists, unless you believe that basing your actions on the Qur'an and Sunnah is "modernist"?

I appreciate that there are some that think voting is haram, but they are not a majority. As there is by no means scholarly consensus on this issue it is dreadfully rude of you to make such accusations about people who disagree with you.

In addition I would remind you that it is a sin to make haram what is halal. Many scholars in the past would not say that something is haram unless they were 100% certain, and from my own research those I have come across that say voting is haram are leaving out crucial details from their evidence. (which become apparent when you check up on it) Leaving out crucial details is not the actions of people who are 100% sure of their views, or even the actions of people who are trying to promote Qur'an and Sunnah. Its more like the actions of people who are trying to push a particular agenda. And who has a vested interest in silencing Muslims...?

I'm not hyjacking this thread, I am attempting to promote awareness of the Qur'an and Sunnah. If you weren't calling everyone who disagrees with you names, I might not have bothered to post anything here

[Al-Nasser]

look sister.....they say that the variety of opinions (fatwas) is a mercy upon this Ummah...so thats how i decide my stance regarding issue X...i see what the scholars i REALLY trust say about it....lets say i have 10 fatwas....ranging from mellow to extreme.....i just then pick the fatwa i like among these 10 fatwas...the one which my heart say that it is right....and in the elections issue i feel that Islam Online fatwa is right and regarding Abu Musab i believe that Abu Mohammed Al Maqdesi fatwa is right.....of course Abo Mohammed Al Maqdesi have some fawats i disagree with...but i trust him....not worship him.....when he say something i believe that its wrong i don't take it........didn't prophet Muhammad :saw: said "ask your heart for a fatwa even after scholars give you a fawta"?

so in breif :
1- infiltrate the base
2- place explosives near the trains which hold the cannons
3-...

ouch..sorry...that is Commandos : behind the enemy line briefing...games rot my brain :(

in brief :
1- ask trusted scholars for fatwa
2- ask your heart which of these fatwas is to be followed
3- follow your heart
Brother Nasser, I am very disappointed.

since you trust teh fatwa council so much, why dont you also ask them for a fatwa regarding your favourite superhero Zarqawi and better still ask them regarding their stance on jihad in iraq and other places.

I am surprised that when it comes to issues of muslim countires you would take fatwa from Taliban, but in this you want to take fatwa from the modernists.

Are you confused? Or just the case that you like bit of action so you keep updates with action in iraq?

Since any govt that comes in uk will not change its policies towards middle-east or Iraq as it was the case in the US.

Mr Qaradhawi is chummy with Ken Livingstone ...I am sure he wouldnt say anything against his paymaster adn would give fatwas urging muslims to vote for his party.

Waslaam

[dhakiyya]

So if you vote for labor, conservative or the lib dems, you don't vote for a pro zionist policy, continued war on Islam and all manners of other evils, where as if I don't commit haram by not voting I am endorsing all these policies? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Read my other posts on this issue, I don't support any of the mainstream parties, for the exact reasons that you state.

I never once said it is haram to not vote. I simply said that if you don't vote you are effectively saying that you don't care who gets in.

If there are no candidates that are pro Palestine/committed to helping the poor and needy/etc then it is better to trash your ballot than not vote, because a trashed ballot says you feel contempt towards the system and all the candidates (it is much better to write this on your ballot than simply scribble over it or whatever) and shows that you do care about issues, its just there is no-one to represent you.

And I don't think there are any, anti capitalist parties unless you are saying that respect is a communist party?<o:p></o:p>

Respect is not a communist party, and it is an anti-capitalist party. The Green party is also an anti capitalist party, and not a communist party. In fact there are many other possible systems besides communism and capitalism, and there are a number of parties that don't support either. The best system of government is Allah's law, and it would be really nice if Muslims could get together to form an Islamic party, so we could all vote for Muslim candidates from a Muslim party who wish to impliment Allah's laws. There is nothing stopping Muslims from doing this except apathy and hizbul tahrir propaganda saying its haram to do these things. And until such party exists, I'll continue to vote for anti-capitalist parties that support Palestine and Iraq, and attempt to provide better services for the elderly and poor people, like respect and greens and plaid cymru do (for as long as they support those things and don't sell out), on a "lesser of two evils" basis, because Muhammad :saw: says we should enjoin good and forbid evil. (note: I quite understand if people don't want to vote for these parties and would only vote for a Muslim candidate) And I'll continue to remind people that it is a sin to make haram what is halal. If they don't want to vote, fine, but don't go round saying it is haram.

[abu yusaf]

Sister,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The Muslim who immigrated to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Abyssinia</st1:place>, never participated in Nagashis rule, but they did invite him to Islam. The Prophet (saw) never accepted participation in the Kufar system of Qurash, simply because his (saw) risala was to replace the man made rule with that of Allah. Therefore we can remain in the <st1:country-region><st1:place>UK</st1:place></st1:country-region> and give dawa and raise awareness for the maslah of the Islamic cause without committing the sin of voting. <o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Those who issue fatwa’s legitimizing voting do so only on the basis that people are making a choice of the lesser harm for the Muslims, like the choice between Clinton & Bush (and boy did they get that one wrong) and the perceived benefit for the Muslims. They know as well as we all do, that calling for the rule of kufar as opposed to the Sharia is shirk. Unfortunately they have not understood the basis of western democracy and the mechanism of voting is electing a body which legislates on your behalf. They mistakenly have taken the Islamic concept of selecting/voting for the ruler and applied this to the capitalist election process. The reality of voting, however the arguments are spun, is the transfer of individuals consent for others to legislate on ones behalf. <o:p></o:p>

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Sorry bro, but those accusation do NOT apply to the majority of scholars that have the opinion that voting is halal.

It seems you believe that everyone is a modernist who doesn't agree with you. Yet when you read their arguments, it's all based on Qur'an and Sunnah, and it's all verifiable when you go and check the evidence. Hardly the actions of modernists, unless you believe that basing your actions on the Qur'an and Sunnah is "modernist"?

I appreciate that there are some that think voting is haram, but they are not a majority. As there is by no means scholarly consensus on this issue it is dreadfully rude of you to make such accusations about people who disagree with you.

In addition I would remind you that it is a sin to make haram what is halal. Many scholars in the past would not say that something is haram unless they were 100% certain, and from my own research those I have come across that say voting is haram are leaving out crucial details from their evidence. (which become apparent when you check up on it) Leaving out crucial details is not the actions of people who are 100% sure of their views, or even the actions of people who are trying to promote Qur'an and Sunnah. Its more like the actions of people who are trying to push a particular agenda. And who has a vested interest in silencing Muslims...?

I'm not hyjacking this thread, I am attempting to promote awareness of the Qur'an and Sunnah. If you weren't calling everyone who disagrees with you names, I might not have bothered to post anything here

There arguments have been refuted point by point in the other thread, your personal argument is a very weak one, and I have not even come accross a scholar who uses the Makkahn argument to justify voting in capitalism/kufr system.

[dhakiyya]

Sister,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The Muslim who immigrated to <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place>Abyssinia</st1:place>, never participated in Nagashis rule, but they did invite him to Islam. The Prophet (saw) never accepted participation in the Kufar system of Qurash, simply because his (saw) risala was to replace the man made rule with that of Allah.

No, he :saw: didn't participate because he was offered a position in their system as a bribe if he shut up about Islam. His refusal to participate was on that basis, not because it was a non Muslim system.

There are a number of examples from Muhammad's :saw: life when he did participate with non Muslims, for example consulting Jews, Pagans and Christians in Medina when drawing up the written constitution for the town of Medina. He was also a member of an organisation (before he recieved revelation from Allah) which had a pledge to help the poor and the oppressed in Macca. Long after he recieved revelation, he said he would still act to help someone who asked help of him under this pledge. So co-operating with non Muslims to attempt to make a better society is what Muhammad :saw: did and this is an example we should follow.

[color=black]Those who issue fatwa’s legitimizing voting do so only on the basis that people are making a choice of the lesser harm for the Muslims, like the choice between Clinton & Bush (and boy did they get that one wrong) and the perceived benefit for the Muslims. They know as well as we all do, that calling for the rule of kufar as opposed to the Sharia is shirk. Unfortunately they have not understood the basis of western democracy and the mechanism of voting is electing a body which legislates on your behalf. They mistakenly have taken the Islamic concept of selecting/voting for the ruler and applied this to the capitalist election process. The reality of voting, however the arguments are spun, is the transfer of individuals consent for others to legislate on ones behalf. <o:p></o:p>

Actually when you read what they have to say, they have a much better understanding of democracy than those who think voting is haram, and they base their evidence on Quran and Sunnah for why it is okay to vote in such a system.

In addition you will have someone legislating on your behalf simply by living in a non Muslim country, whether you choose to vote or not. So if it is wrong to have someone legislate on your behalf who is not a Muslim, you shouldn't live in a non Muslim country.

The election process is not capitalist. The people who are currently elected are capitalist. There is nothing in the system to stop Muslims forming an Islamic party and voting for Muslim candidates from the Muslim party they formed.

And (as I keep saying) it is a sin to make haram what is halal. I have yet to see any evidence for any of these things to be haram, and the evidence I've seen cited for these things being haram leaves out important details, and there are many scholars who say voting is halal based on Qur'an and Sunnah. Beliving voting is a bad idea is one thing (and I probably wouldn't even bother with the argument if thats all people were saying), but saying it is haram is another matter.

[dhakiyya]

There arguments have been refuted point by point in the other thread, your personal argument is a very weak one, and I have not even come accross a scholar who uses the Makkahn argument to justify voting in capitalism/kufr system.

thats funny because most of the ones I come across use that exact argument and verses from the Qur'an about not co-operating with non Muslims, and their arguments have been refuted on the other threads.

This is not a personal argument of mine, but you choose to disregard the large numbers of scholars who disagree so why would you listen to me?

[dhakiyya]

There arguments have been refuted point by point in the other thread, your personal argument is a very weak one, and I have not even come accross a scholar who uses the Makkahn argument to justify voting in capitalism/kufr system.

the other thread in general, near the top? I didn't see much refuting of the scholars who say voting is halal going on. Certainly not refuting point by point, in fact there are large numbers of issues that fail to be addressed.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

Brother Nasser, mind my ignorance, can you please explain me the rule which allows one to follow the daleel of the heart over textual daleel ?

becasue in essence if your heart says Jihad is no good, you can find a fatwa from the fatwa council to agree with this, or from Hamza Yusuf and those Soufis, or even some saudi Salafis. The same time if your heart gives the fatwa that you shoudl help kuffar to get some money, you will easily find some fatwas again from the same sources fatwa banks, the soufis and some wahabbis to say you can ally with kufar. Because your heart may become convinced of Batil, or deviancy may come in your heart, but you can still find fatwas to suit your heart, so the heart takes priority?

I am unable to understand this logic?

So what happends when the scholars you trust such as those who have permitted particiapation in kufr system condemn the Jihad operations in iraq and Palestine and call the Mujahdeen Terrorists. How do you reconcile that? Is there some principle of usul which i am missing here?

Ikhtilaaf is a blessing, in matters where ikhtilaaf is permissable. You wouldnt accept Ikhtilaaf in jihad being fardh or the rule of Allah being supreme, niether would you accept Ikhtilaaf in the beheading which go on?
or Would you, because if you would then there would be no lengthy discussions on each news article you post in the world affairs section ?




look sister.....they say that the variety of opinions (fatwas) is a mercy upon this Ummah...so thats how i decide my stance regarding issue X...i see what the scholars i REALLY trust say about it....lets say i have 10 fatwas....ranging from mellow to extreme.....i just then pick the fatwa i like among these 10 fatwas...the one which my heart say that it is right....and in the elections issue i feel that Islam Online fatwa is right and regarding Abu Musab i believe that Abu Mohammed Al Maqdesi fatwa is right.....of course Abo Mohammed Al Maqdesi have some fawats i disagree with...but i trust him....not worship him.....when he say something i believe that its wrong i don't take it........didn't prophet Muhammad :saw: said "ask your heart for a fatwa even after scholars give you a fawta"?

so in breif :
1- infiltrate the base
2- place explosives near the trains which hold the cannons
3-...

ouch..sorry...that is Commandos : behind the enemy line briefing...games rot my brain :(

in brief :
1- ask trusted scholars for fatwa
2- ask your heart which of these fatwas is to be followed
3- follow your heart

[ponderingstar]

this is a stupid post which is meant to do nothing but cause rifts between the ummah. what type of a person would think they were clever by implying voter=modernist especially considering endless references which prove otherwise?

if you're going to put up a poll and then act all high and mighty when poeple object to its questioning and say "oh why dont you go to the other post and post there?" then i think you need to analyse your own intentions.

I know MANY muslims who will be voting and for you to look down upon them because you think they are doign something unislamic is very rich.

The only way you are going to inspire people to not vote is by posting a LOGICAL argument regarding the issue PREFERABLY with references. I honestly think posting "duh... you know what... those of you who vote are unislamic" (which is essentially what you are trying to say with this post/poll) is not going to teach anyone anything. All you are going to get are a few backslaps from your non voting buddies. If that's what you need (validation) then whoopee and well done. If you actually wish to spread a practice that you believe to be Islamic then a more inspirational approach would be advisable. BY pointing fingers at those who you deem to be less knowledgable, you are doing nothing but making enemies within the ummah.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

No, he :saw: didn't participate because he was offered a position in their system as a bribe if he shut up about Islam. His refusal to participate was on that basis, not because it was a non Muslim system.

There are a number of examples from Muhammad's :saw: life when he did participate with non Muslims, for example consulting Jews, Pagans and Christians in Medina when drawing up the written constitution for the town of Medina. He was also a member of an organisation (before he recieved revelation from Allah) which had a pledge to help the poor and the oppressed in Macca. Long after he recieved revelation, he said he would still act to help someone who asked help of him under this pledge. So co-operating with non Muslims to attempt to make a better society is what Muhammad :saw: did and this is an example we should follow.



Actually when you read what they have to say, they have a much better understanding of democracy than those who think voting is haram, and they base their evidence on Quran and Sunnah for why it is okay to vote in such a system.

In addition you will have someone legislating on your behalf simply by living in a non Muslim country, whether you choose to vote or not. So if it is wrong to have someone legislate on your behalf who is not a Muslim, you shouldn't live in a non Muslim country.

The election process is not capitalist. The people who are currently elected are capitalist. There is nothing in the system to stop Muslims forming an Islamic party and voting for Muslim candidates from the Muslim party they formed.

And (as I keep saying) it is a sin to make haram what is halal. I have yet to see any evidence for any of these things to be haram, and the evidence I've seen cited for these things being haram leaves out important details, and there are many scholars who say voting is halal based on Qur'an and Sunnah. Beliving voting is a bad idea is one thing (and I probably wouldn't even bother with the argument if thats all people were saying), but saying it is haram is another matter.
Can you please raise these points in teh other thread to carry on with this discussion.

[jahil]

Ukhti this maybe the opinion of some scholars who have a presence on the internet, or others who are bigged up by media, who have somehow made a big base of audience on the internet, since its convinient to get the right fatwa by clicking a few buttons.

However vast majority are in agreement that its haraam to participate such except a few such as the modernist soufi trend, modernist wahabbi trend adn the modernist ikhwani trend, all of them are recieving benifets from the govt weather in forms of grants for thier institutions, public handouts like MCB, recognition of their institution and there is currently a big bid for who will get the new 'Representative of Msulims title'.

I know most of these ulema, adn according to my own research ..i cannot put my trust in any of them in this matter.

I am not the only one who follows this opinion,.

I dont wish to go round and round in circles, please highjack another thread.

Barakallahu feek

For decades all main religious parties in Pakistan have been actively participating in National as well as Provincial elections and have been having scores of MPs (members of parliament). Few examples are: Jama'at-i-Islami of Pakistan, Jam'iat-i-Ulmaae Islam of Pakistan and many more. They have never said that democracy was haraam!

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I think Akhi Salman, we should discuss the capitalist system which all political parties adhere to and which is the basis of their manifesto that they are presenting to the people (including Muslims) at the elections. In particular we should highlight the contradiction to Islam of these solution contained therein and then highlight what Islam has to say on these issue. Some core issues are:

Freedom<O:p></O:p>
Pension crises<O:p></O:p>
Care in Old age<O:p></O:p>
Housing<O:p></O:p>
Foreign trade<O:p></O:p>
Colonialism.<O:p></O:p>
Crime<O:p></O:p>

As an example there is a big problem of binge drinking in this country and the government and other parties are proposing to allow pubs and clubs to open more hours in an attempt to stop people spilling on to the streets all at once highly intoxicated, causing violence and crime. The issue here is not the opening or closing time, but that the people really believe that it is their freedom to drink as they please and that government, which on one hand promotes and collect taxes from the drinks industry, should not then on the other hand restrict their freedom to drink. We should highlight to Muslims that in Islam we do not have the concept of individual freedom but that we are bound to the halal and haram. Therefore no capitalist government can solve this problem unless it admits that the concepts of freedom are wrong and of course they will not do this as this is an intrinsically part of their aqueedah. So if Muslims vote they are infact endorsing these un Islamic solutions.

Akhee Jazakallahu khayr for these points. We can use some of these points to furhter this discussion.

I think the main problem here is secularism, people cannot simple begin to understand that Islam could possibly have anything to say on ruling or economics, or societal issues. Its the same with the scholars who have given these fatwas, these scholars too have a very secular understanding of Islam, so you would never hear any of them give a fatwa on Jihad issues, or to give a fatwa on establishment of an islamic state or supremacy of shariah simply because they do not have the comprehensive understanding of Islam. So when it comes to Ibadah issues like Salah or Zakah they are able to scruitanise the rules of islam and formulate a fatwa, but when it comes to new issues like kufr system and pariticipating in it, they are unable to look this up in the old fiqh manuals, therefore they just adopt whats good for society in their view rather than scrutanising all the principles and texts to formulate a detailed Ijtihad. They cannot see how islam could possibly have something to say on voting in kufr system, because of their deep secular knwoledge.

May Allah save us all

Allahuma Ameen

[dhakiyya]

Can you please raise these points in teh other thread to carry on with this discussion.



I already did.

[dhakiyya]

this is a stupid post which is meant to do nothing but cause rifts between the ummah. what type of a person would think they were clever by implying voter=modernist especially considering endless references which prove otherwise?

if you're going to put up a poll and then act all high and mighty when poeple object to its questioning and say "oh why dont you go to the other post and post there?" then i think you need to analyse your own intentions.

I know MANY muslims who will be voting and for you to look down upon them because you think they are doign something unislamic is very rich.

The only way you are going to inspire people to not vote is by posting a LOGICAL argument regarding the issue PREFERABLY with references. I honestly think posting "duh... you know what... those of you who vote are unislamic" (which is essentially what you are trying to say with this post/poll) is not going to teach anyone anything. All you are going to get are a few backslaps from your non voting buddies. If that's what you need (validation) then whoopee and well done. If you actually wish to spread a practice that you believe to be Islamic then a more inspirational approach would be advisable. BY pointing fingers at those who you deem to be less knowledgable, you are doing nothing but making enemies within the ummah.

Well said!

When I see some more evidence that voting is haram I'll check that evidence too, and if it isn't full of holes like the evidence presented so far seems to be, I might consider the issue again.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

this is a stupid post which is meant to do nothing but cause rifts between the ummah. what type of a person would think they were clever by implying voter=modernist especially considering endless references which prove otherwise?

if you're going to put up a poll and then act all high and mighty when poeple object to its questioning and say "oh why dont you go to the other post and post there?" then i think you need to analyse your own intentions.

I know MANY muslims who will be voting and for you to look down upon them because you think they are doign something unislamic is very rich.

The only way you are going to inspire people to not vote is by posting a LOGICAL argument regarding the issue PREFERABLY with references. I honestly think posting "duh... you know what... those of you who vote are unislamic" (which is essentially what you are trying to say with this post/poll) is not going to teach anyone anything. All you are going to get are a few backslaps from your non voting buddies. If that's what you need (validation) then whoopee and well done. If you actually wish to spread a practice that you believe to be Islamic then a more inspirational approach would be advisable. BY pointing fingers at those who you deem to be less knowledgable, you are doing nothing but making enemies within the ummah.
Jazakallahu khayr

i suppose that was the purpose of this thread to brainstorm ideas as to how we can channel these ideas in the ummah.

But some great suggestions. thanks
:)

[Sayf]

I am boycotting this vote because it is Biased, and YES I will be voting.

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I am sorry to hear that. :(

[ponderingstar]

Jazakallahu khayr

i suppose that was the purpose of this thread to brainstorm ideas as to how we can channel these ideas in the ummah.

But some great suggestions. thanks
:)
i think you are confused brother.

i am criticising your approach and the fact that you are looking down upon other muslims and labelling them according to your own personal ideas as "modernists".

i shall be voting. i am not a modernist.

get my point?

was salaam.

[Sayf]

I am sorry to hear that. :(
Sorry for what labelling those Muslims who will be voting modernist?

[Mary Carol]

I am boycotting this vote because it is Biased, and YES I will be voting.

If you please, I am a emigre wannabe.

So if you could begin explaining the ins and outs of the coming election to me, I would appreciate it.

A comparison would be helpful also.

I am a registered US Democrat now and have voted Democratic in every election for the last 27 years until this last one, when I chose the Libertarian Party.

What Party in the UK is comparable to our Democrats? Our Republicans? Is there a Libertarian Party on the UK ballot?

Jazakllah khair for your help.

[Sayf]

oh I don't want to hijack Brother Salman Al-Farsi thread :p lol for this I think we need a new thread, but personally speaking Sister i Don't know much of your political parties but hey it would be good to talk about parties from america and the UK, what you say ukhti?

[Sayf]

emigre wannabe.

what does this mean, I asked Saj he didn't have a clue aswell :p

[yorkshireman]

what does this mean, I asked Saj he didn't have a clue aswell :p

She is wishing to emigrate from the United States to our fine nation. A welcome addition she would be to these isles in my opinion.

[ponderingstar]

we just need to find her a handsome good muslim brother of good character and kind heart....

oh and a sense of humour....

so then she can join us easy!:)

[Sayf]

She is wishing to emigrate from the United States to our fine nation. A welcome addition she would be to these isles in my opinion.

oh neat come to yorkshire my home town, you'l love the place

we just need to find her a handsome good muslim brother of good character and kind heart....

oh and a sense of humour....

so then she can join us easy!

oh lol well then do dua :p and hey just a tip of advice, dua without action is useless, so don't sit on the prayer mat all day asking for Mr right or Mr not so perfect, get out and find someone in a halal way my sister. :)

[Marb]

If you do not like voting what do you want to replace it?

So if you do not want Muslims to vote, how do you want leaders elected? And what do you want done if the people did not like that leader?

All canditates seve one and only one master zion-illuminati & et..who else

you don'dt even come close to having any real choice

don't you see always a choice of the lesser evil

why do I have to answer these dumb questions?

[Makki]

why dont people ever just agree to disagree?

:rolleyes:

[Umm Layth]

For decades all main religious parties in Pakistan have been actively participating in National as well as Provincial elections and have been having scores of MPs (members of parliament). Few examples are: Jama'at-i-Islami of Pakistan, Jam'iat-i-Ulmaae Islam of Pakistan and many more. They have never said that democracy was haraam!
I am not pakistani but I do know pakstanis are very nationalistic. Does that mean Nationalism must now be permissable since majority of ppl are nationalistic.

Or majority of the women do not wear the hijaab is pakistan, does that mean we shouldnt wear hijaab in the uk?

Interesting argument. We were told about our times, the people following the truth will be small faction.

[Umm Layth]

This seemed like an interesting discussion, until...

anyway, as far as i know voting in kufr system is same as praying in a church towards the cross using the argument we have no where else to pray so we gonna pray in the church...or the Gurdawara for that matter.

the only different between the two is that, Salah is fardh and voting is not.

SO instead of establishing a mosque in the community, people are just happy going to the gurdawara with their sikhs neighbours or the church.

[Umm Layth]

Akhee Jazakallahu khayr for these points. We can use some of these points to furhter this discussion.

I think the main problem here is secularism, people cannot simple begin to understand that Islam could possibly have anything to say on ruling or economics, or societal issues. Its the same with the scholars who have given these fatwas, these scholars too have a very secular understanding of Islam, so you would never hear any of them give a fatwa on Jihad issues, or to give a fatwa on establishment of an islamic state or supremacy of shariah simply because they do not have the comprehensive understanding of Islam. So when it comes to Ibadah issues like Salah or Zakah they are able to scruitanise the rules of islam and formulate a fatwa, but when it comes to new issues like kufr system and pariticipating in it, they are unable to look this up in the old fiqh manuals, therefore they just adopt whats good for society in their view rather than scrutanising all the principles and texts to formulate a detailed Ijtihad. They cannot see how islam could possibly have something to say on voting in kufr system, because of their deep secular knwoledge.

May Allah save us all

Allahuma Ameen


Good analysis. But I dont entirely agree becuase the very fact tha they now want to pariticipate in politics for an Islamic reason actually shows that have said good buy to secularism. These people are sincere in doing something for Islam, htey are willing to do things just that they need to be pointed towards the right direction, into following the sunnah of Mohammed (saw) and not hte sunah of Zionist Jews as followed staunchly by MPACUK, or the sunnah of the kuffar.

It is only when the Muslims begin to follow the emulate the prophet (saw) in all his actions will they succeed.

[myy]

The reality is that when we vote in the lUKl election we are voting for a person who will represent us and make hukum law on our behave, they will do this in accordance to what they publish in there manifesto. For example the Lib dem want to legalise brothels, if they get in to power this is what the will do, they are saying to the Muslims give us your consent by voting for us and we will implement this hukum law, the other parties have similar policies things that they will make lawful that contradicts Islam IE is haram. Now if something leads to haram can we still do that action, because this is what those who argue that we should vote are in reality saying, We now have scholars that , are saying that if something leads to haram it is halal, rather we should know that is something leads to haram from its basis it is haram, so to vote for haram is haram. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Now ask your self this question who is our best example, no doubt every Muslim with out exception would say <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas:contacts" /><st1:Sn>Muhammad</st1:Sn> SAW. Now ask your self this question, if Muhammad SAW was here now today in our reality what would he do how would he vote for a party that Wants to make drinking all hr of the day halal, would he vote for a party that wants to make brothels legal, would he vote for a party that wants to send more troops out to murder Muslim, would he vote for a party that want to give more rights to homosexuals,, because this is the policies of the current political parties, Muslims are been asked to vote to put in to power people and parties that will commit haram . So who would Muhammad SAW vote for something that would lead to Haram or would he reject this notion, because voting for something that is and leads to haram is haram.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>

Those who still advocate taking part in voting for haram polices should read Ibn Kathir tasfir on the ayat “those who do not rule by what Allah SWT has revealed” it makes interesting reading and will show quite clearly the error of those who call for and give fatwas advocating voting in kuffar elections

[H25]

Salam Alaikum,

Why don't we vote Tony Blair again then and join them killing our fellow muslims???
We are not allowed to vote in a kaffir country - end of story.

Ma Salam

[Umm Layth]

The reality is that when we vote in the lUKl election we are voting for a person who will represent us and make hukum law on our behave, they will do this in accordance to what they publish in there manifesto. For example the Lib dem want to legalise brothels, if they get in to power this is what the will do, they are saying to the Muslims give us your consent by voting for us and we will implement this hukum law, the other parties have similar policies things that they will make lawful that contradicts Islam IE is haram. Now if something leads to haram can we still do that action, because this is what those who argue that we should vote are in reality saying, We now have scholars that , are saying that if something leads to haram it is halal, rather we should know that is something leads to haram from its basis it is haram, so to vote for haram is haram. <O:p></O:p>

<O:p></O:p>

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Now ask your self this question who is our best example, no doubt every Muslim with out exception would say <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas:contacts" /><st1:Sn>Muhammad</st1:Sn> SAW. Now ask your self this question, if Muhammad SAW was here now today in our reality what would he do how would he vote for a party that Wants to make drinking all hr of the day halal, would he vote for a party that wants to make brothels legal, would he vote for a party that wants to send more troops out to murder Muslim, would he vote for a party that want to give more rights to homosexuals,, because this is the policies of the current political parties, Muslims are been asked to vote to put in to power people and parties that will commit haram . So who would Muhammad SAW vote for something that would lead to Haram or would he reject this notion, because voting for something that is and leads to haram is haram.<O:p></O:p>

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Those who still advocate taking part in voting for haram polices should read Ibn Kathir tasfir on the ayat “those who do not rule by what Allah SWT has revealed” it makes interesting reading and will show quite clearly the error of those who call for and give fatwas advocating voting in kuffar elections

Some excellent points there.

Also Ibn Abbas' s tafseer of this Ayah considers those believing in the kufr rule as kaffir, those who believe its kufr and still refer to it (with good intentions) as kaffir, and those who live under it and remain silent also as kaffir.

I wil get the exact text translation. Inshalah

[faqir]

why dont people ever just agree to disagree?

:rolleyes:
Asalamu alaykum,


Exactly bruv.


I suggest that those who do not believe voting in non muslim lands to be haram stop posting in this thread as it was clearly not intended for them.

Let the Haram party discuss amongst themselves :D


Wasalam.

[Mary Carol]

oh I don't want to hijack Brother Salman Al-Farsi thread :p lol for this I think we need a new thread, but personally speaking Sister i Don't know much of your political parties but hey it would be good to talk about parties from america and the UK, what you say ukhti?

Isn't the topic voting?

Whether you are for or against voting, learning more about the different parties and their candidates isn't haram, is it?

[Umm Layth]

Isn't the topic voting?

Whether you are for or against voting, learning more about the different parties and their candidates isn't haram, is it?
I agree, I dont see anything wrong.

Why doesnt sayf educate us with the party menifestos?

[Umm Layth]

I believe the cornerstone of the modernist argument for pariticipation in Uk politics/govt is the principle of 'lesser of two evils'This maybe we can discuss.

[myy]

In reality when we say the lesser of two evils we mean the lesser of two harams we now seem to have a Fiqh of haram and doing haram, another new Fiqh like the Fiqh of minoritys aimed at deviating the Ummah away from Islam and towards Kuffar. As for Mariam point it is important that we study these parties and what they call for so we can see the clear contradiction in there call to the Muslims, and so we can see the clear haram they are calling us to.

[Umm Layth]

Spot on.

What these ***** dont understand is that Harm or fear has to be Haqeeeqi not Khayaali.

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

What some fail to understand is that when the Mujtahids mention the principle of fiqh "bearing the lesser harm / choosing the lesser of evils" it is in relation to the choice of candidate on offer and has nothing to do with the separate issue of the judgement on voting in non-muslim lands which many if not most Ulema consider Halal in principle. The reasons for this have been outlined in various other threads on the subject and it is not necessary to repeat this over and over again.

And Allah knows best.

[Abu Dayyan]

I guess what you guys mean in harm as opposed to haram? furthermore this choice is in mubah area.

wa Allahu alim

[faqir]

Spot on.

What these mofos dont understand is that Haram or fear has to be Haqeeeqi not Khayaali.

SubhanAllah, I expect such language from Kufar - not from a sister in Islam.

[Abu Dayyan]

faqir the question is in which area the choice lies.

[zayd]

I believe the cornerstone of the modernist argument for pariticipation in Uk politics/govt is the principle of 'lesser of two evils'This maybe we can discuss.
Its also to do with manfaha as well.

[Abu Dayyan]

do you mean maslaha?