Palestine Demo

[slmz :)]

hey ppl who like demonstrations...
theres 1 in MARCH 19 2005 in london!!! not sure wher in london but ill get bk 2 u all!
its gonna b huge!!! for OUR BRO'S N SISTAZ IN PALESTINE!!!

[Umm Layth]

hey ppl who like demonstrations...
theres 1 in MARCH 19 2005 in london!!! not sure wher in london but ill get bk 2 u all!
its gonna b huge!!! for OUR BRO'S N SISTAZ IN PALESTINE!!!
After the last year demo a university professor from Neblus made a clear statement 'All your demonstrations and marches will not raise a single hair on sharon's body.'

Though it might be a good day out, alot of guys and girls intermingled, held hands with socialist -who dont believe in Allah, even carried their flags, and there was free mecca cola i think. The -supposedly- most active govt organisation the MCB had nothing to offer the Muslims and non-muslims except £1 sandwitches while MAB was busy fornicating with the socialist. Not to mention Mr Galloway, who gained his fame from the misery of Palestinians and Iraqis and now he is contesting elections.

I am sure it will be HUGE....a HUGE disaster maybe.

[aurorascopic]

The main focus of March 19th is meant to be an demonstration to close the E.U Summit in Brussels... i.e a demo against war, privatisation, racism... (an anti-capitalist demo essentially) i know for sure i deffo will be there..inshallah..depending if my daddums is feeling up to it :rolleyes: i was at the march 19th and feb 15th 2003 too...awesome.. :1peace:

[Umm Layth]

The main focus of March 19th is meant to be an demonstration to close the E.U Summit in Brussels... i.e a demo against war, privatisation, racism... (an anti-capitalist demo essentially) i know for sure i deffo will be there..inshallah..depending if my daddums is feeling up to it :rolleyes: i was at the march 19th and feb 15th 2003 too...awesome.. :1peace:
15th feb was a good day out for those who are not allowed out on a saturday.


What was so awesome about it?

[slmz :)]

i went to that 1 tooo...the awesome things about demos is that @ least ur doing something... ok mayb not going and killing 10 israeli soldiers or woteva,...but when tony blair hears 1 million ppl shouting hatred towards them... he feels guilt...HE BETTER OTHER WISE ILL GO OVER THERE AND MAKE HIM FEEL GUILTY- but at the end of the day uve dun something to tell ur broz ans sistaz round the world...look we r demonstrating 4 U!!! WE DO CAAREE!!

[slmz :)]

Yo From Where Do You Come From...bham??

[Umm Layth]

Yo From Where Do You Come From...bham??
We have to first question if the action is Halal by examining the shariah.. As far as I know from the statements of stop teh war co-alition and MAB the objective of the march was to lobby for UN. It was also clear from the talks including one Muslim Mr Azam Tamimi who just talks trash. As I said the response we got from the Palestinians was not 'Thanks you...well done'. It was 'all your demonstrations wil not raise a single hair on sharon's body, if you really wanna do something pressure the Muslim govt to release their armies." Here is an agenda being dictated by Muslims..why not do this instead of following the socialist Stop the war co-alition like a poodle dog.

just some thought :)

[slmz :)]

yeah but we r not 'following the stwc like a poodle dog' because thyre not making us go to these demos.. its our choice...
we r onli xpressing our opinions withothers. when u r with others at a demo..theyr from all diffrent bakgrounds..religions..etc... so when it 1 million ppl at 1 time together chanting the same thing.. as one voice.. it brings the sense of UNITY....4once!

[Umm Layth]

yeah but we r not 'following the stwc like a poodle dog' because thyre not making us go to these demos.. its our choice...
we r onli xpressing our opinions withothers. when u r with others at a demo..theyr from all diffrent bakgrounds..religions..etc... so when it 1 million ppl at 1 time together chanting the same thing.. as one voice.. it brings the sense of UNITY....4once!
c'mon you know its organised by Stop the war co-alition, they set the agenda infact they are only organising this to get Muslim sympathy for their RESPECT cadidates in upcoming elections. Most of the speakers will be socialist like tha Kaffir Galloway and Tony benn, there maybe one or two muslim speakers the moderates, who are most likely RESPECT candidates like Yvonne Rideley or Anas Tikriti.


If you really want to do something for Muslims in IRaq or Pal demonstrate outside embassies of Muslim govt and tell them to release their armies instead of pressuring UN (taghoot) for solutions.

[aurorascopic]

that is brilliant and what my dad's been saying for years! BUT the only problem is...its very few muslims, well, speaking mainly about asians ie indians/pakistanis who even bother to take interest in such issues such as campaigning, demonstrating etc..hey if they all would..then wow..it'd be perfect it'd be amazing..the unity of people is awesome but the unity of our ummah! no words.. another issue is like you say, the whole mixing of sexes..*shrugs* like in my small town up north (yorkshire) for feb 15th they organised a few mini buses..but..only for men..and the message to the women is 'yuo dont need to take no interest in such issues they are not of your concern'..which is..just..wrong..and so obviously me and my dad ended up going with the stwc :rolleyes: like 'poodles' hm maybe, i dont know but in the end its whats in your heart and what your agenda is..and it's only you and god who knows whats there..better than staying at home shouting at the TV...

[Salman Al-Farsi]

I believe the point being made here is that, when we decide to do something we must first make sure its in line with the shariah of Allah tala. Allah tala does not allow friendship with those who hate Him and His deen such as the Socialists, who mock the deen of Allah Tala and label the prophet of Allah (swt) as poedophile (Au'zobillah).

Like Umm Layth said, they have thier own agenda insincere ones for sure and we have our own agenda given to us by Allah Tala so we should follow that. Its permissable for us to lobby or demonstrate, rally or march but to whome? its prohibited if this action is to the tawagheet such as US, UK, UN etc.

[slmz :)]

wot are socialists?

[Umm Layth]

wot are socialists?
Socialism is the political framework of communism which came about after the collapse of communism and the state which embraced it, ie soviet russia. They deny the existence of God and hate Islam deeply, please refert to socialist worker's party's website and newpaper and other literature.

It was sad to see old Muslim men with beards and naive sisters in Hijaab holding placards of socialist workers party, these kuffar must be laughing their heads off at how dumb the muslims are :(

Maybe Salman Al-Farsi can ellaborate more on the socialist ideology and how they percieve Islam.

[Twix]

Demonstration in the uk is a joke.


yeah but we r not 'following the stwc like a poodle dog' because thyre not making us go to these demos.. its our choice...
we r onli xpressing our opinions withothers. when u r with others at a demo..theyr from all diffrent bakgrounds..religions..etc... so when it 1 million ppl at 1 time together chanting the same thing.. as one voice.. it brings the sense of UNITY....4once!

U need to go and learn the basics of islam then come and make comments.

[dhakiyya]

Demonstrating is part of democracy, it DOES change things, it got women the vote in the UK (the suffragette movement is worth reading up on), it has been instrumental in a great deal of political change in the UK. One demo never changed anything, but it builds a movement that does change stuff.

I agree that you must be sure that stuff is in line with Islam, however I don't see what is wrong with allowing non Muslims to campaign with us on Islamic issues like Palestine. I mean, would you rather they fought against us or stayed at home and didn't bother?

oh and I converted to Islam right after the big Iraq demonstration, and I bet I wasn't the only one who saw that the issues we had been campaiging for for years have been written down in the Qur'an for the last 1400 years. If Muslims had refused to campaign alongside "socialists" that would never have happened.

And Umm Layth, you want to check your definition of "socialist" - the people at these demonstrations are not "socialists" by your definition, most don't call themselves that at all, but most people use the term "socialist" to mean someone who is in favour of a system that puts the needs of human beings before business/finance. (capitalism is entirely profit driven)

the reason why left wing people in the UK campaign alongside Muslims is because their values are so similar. The Islamic zakat system is just like the system of social support that they are trying to make, they are against usury, so is Islam, they are in favour of ending oppression, so is Islam.

These left wing politics are inferior to Islam, because they are made by humans instead of by Allah, and as soon as I realised that (and that the Qur'an comes from the God that I always beleived in) I converted to Islam.

PLEASE don't dis socialists/left wingers for their imperfections, we must let them campaign alongside us, and we must show them how their values are that of Islam, and inshallah more of them will come to Islam.

As for joining non Muslim parties, I don't recommend that, but that does not mean we cannot campaign with them on issues where we do agree. Palestine needs all the help it can get, and turning down genuine support of non Muslims is not going to help anyone. Ditto Iraq, ditto campaiging against usury, campaigning for fair trade, environmental issues, or anything that is the same as what Islam teaches.

[Umm Layth]

Congradulations on your acceptance of Islam.

My dear, if you study the basic principles of Islam it will be quiet apparent that western or the eastern ideas, liberal democracy or as I call demoCrazy, or socialism/communism are directly in contradiction wiht islamic polity and its rules.

These same socialist who would hold your hand to demonstrate with you are the same ones who consider Islamic Shariah violation of human rights.

If they do campaign for Iraq or Palestine they do it for their own benifit. They need to recruit ppl in their org so they need to continously mobilise ppl against the govt. They need sympathisers and supporters for upcomng elections. They found Muslims vulnerable and naive enough to jump on thier bandwagon.

The reality of the demo was that the socialist controlled the platform, presenting their ideas and having on panel moderate Muslims who are disliked by Muslim community in general if not outcast.Such as Azzam Tamimi who is declared apostate by many and his organisation MAB is a fringe element in Muslim community. They couldnt raise 50 people if they were to organise the demo on their own.

[dhakiyya]

Congradulations on your acceptance of Islam.

My dear, if you study the basic principles of Islam it will be quiet apparent that western or the eastern ideas, liberal democracy or as I call demoCrazy, or socialism/communism are directly in contradiction wiht islamic polity and its rules.


I have studied Islam, however it seems you have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about "socialists" (please note that the majority of people at demonstrations don't call themselves "socialists")

You can't tell me I know nothing of the movement I was part of for five years, which is a movement of people who want a fair system, an end to exploitation and oppression and a political system that puts human beings first. The movement has no name as such, often called "mayday" after the may day demonstrations or "anti capitalists" because they are against capitalism. Islam provides exactly such a system, Islam is anti-capitalist. In fact, if your statement that Islam is in direct contradiction with this movement is true, then you are saying that Islam is capitalistic, which is blatantly is not.

Just because people live in the west does not mean they all have the same political ideas. In fact the people who go on demonstrations are those who oppose the mainstream western ideas such as capitalism and the idiotic system that gets called "democracy" in the west. I KNOW this because I was part of it. I KNOW what values they are fighting for.

These same socialist who would hold your hand to demonstrate with you are the same ones who consider Islamic Shariah violation of human rights.

Oh really? :rolleyes: I was with these people for five years, I don't recalll EVER coming across such an idea. (that's the five years before I entered Islam, where no-one would fail to tell me such, me not being a Muslim...)


If they do campaign for Iraq or Palestine they do it for their own benifit. They need to recruit ppl in their org so they need to continously mobilise ppl against the govt. They need sympathisers and supporters for upcomng elections. They found Muslims vulnerable and naive enough to jump on thier bandwagon.

You are talking utter crap, sorry. The people who demonstrate do so because they care enough about the issue to do what they can to oppose it.

People who go to Palestine demonstrations do so because they care about the Palestinian people. That's all there is to it. If you find it so hard to believe that someone who isn't a Muslim could care about the Palestinians, then you should aquaint yourself with non-Muslim campaigners like Rachel Corrie, who died as a result of being crushed by a bulldozer whilst attempting to save a Palestinian family's home from being destroyed. And there are plenty more where she came from.

There are MANY non Muslims who share so many values with Muslims, and the only reason why they are not Muslims is because they don't understand Islam. Hence this is what DAWA is for. And joining with like minded people in campaigning for these values, whilst explaining how Islam embodies these values, is DAWA and it is totally effective, hence me being Muslim.

You don't like it when people mobilise against the British government? Do you support the British goverment then? You don't want to try to work towards an alternative? If you don't want to be a part of a non Muslim party (even if it does share many values with Islam) why not set up a Muslim party?


The reality of the demo was that the socialist controlled the platform, presenting their ideas and having on panel moderate Muslims who are disliked by Muslim community in general if not outcast.Such as Azzam Tamimi who is declared apostate by many and his organisation MAB is a fringe element in Muslim community. They couldnt raise 50 people if they were to organise the demo on their own.

I was at the demo, there were people from every walk of life, and it was organised by an organisation called "stop the war" which existed solely to attempt to "stop the war", and did not even exist before the threat of the war on Iraq, and it formed in an attempt to stop it. Just as the mayday demonstrations consist solely of people who oppose capitalism, and exist solely to oppose captialism. You will always find groups at demonstrations that you don't agree with, it does not mean that they have any kind of agenda, or that you are somehow supporting every group that's there, and if you don't like it when they stand in elections, then don't vote for them. You could even stand for election yourself, if you feel so strongly about it.

[Umm Layth]

Well, sister what can I say? Any other sane member in this forum will tell you, you cannot marry off Islam and socialism. They are two contradicting ideologies.

Its funny how Anti-war co-alition turned into a political party known as RESPECT.

I applaud the political stunt.

Me..I am not interested in socialism or demoCrazy or as another participant calls is Democrappy.

wasalaam

[aurorascopic]

i think...at the end of it..we all want one thing..unity..peace..and..there's no harm in being in peace with other religions?..nup..and if you're going to slag off their, yes maybe slightly disillusioned ideas and ideas we may not agree on things such as homosexuality etc, well..that's not creating much peace..ok fine we may agree on some things..most we may not agree on..but instead of focussing on the things we dont' agree on..why not focus on what we do?..and so so in peace?and hopefully..you never know..it may end up in many more convert/revertisms (if that's even a word o_O) such as that of sis dhakiyya :) (yeah abit dreamy i know..im in too much of a 'peace' mood atm..)

I Love You All :love:

:salams

[dhakiyya]

Well, sister what can I say? Any other sane member in this forum will tell you, you cannot marry off Islam and socialism. They are two contradicting ideologies.

PLEASE read what I'm actually saying. The people you refer to are NOT SOCIALISTS nor am I talking about "a marriage between Islam and socialism" I'm merely saying that when non-Muslims agree with us on certain issues, and are prepared to campaign with us on those issues, we should not stop them campaigning alongside us and we should also use the fact that we share opinions and values as a means of making dawa.

What are you going to do with non Muslims who support you? Tell them to go home and not bother? Tell them to fight against you? Fail to give dawa to them even though there is a good chance they could become Muslims? What can that possibly gain?


Its funny how Anti-war co-alition turned into a political party known as RESPECT.

Yes, because when you get a large number of people who oppose the government and have no party to represent them, they form a political party that does represent them :rolleyes: it would be great if Muslims could stop criticising everyone else that is trying to stop some of the bad things that are happening in the world, and get off their butts and do something about it. If you don't like the Respect party, fine, don't join it, don't vote for them, why not go and form a Muslim party so we've got an Islamic party to vote for in the elections instead of having to choose between Labour, Tory and Lib Dem (who are all supporters of capitalism) - which was all there was before there was Respect, hence the reason why people wanted to start a new party to represent the people who oppose capitalism. If you think you can do a better job then go and do it. I will vote for the least evil party. At the moment that's respect. If you can do better then I'll vote for you.

And there is nothing wrong with my sanity. However much you consider you know about Islam, you obviously know very little about alternative politics.


:up: @ aurorascopic :1peace:

[Salman Al-Farsi]

From shariah its not permissable for us to march under their (socialis/kaffir) banner, which is the case with stop the war demos. Whereas its permissable for them to march under our banner, for example the Muslim unity action march.

[slmz :)]

GO AURORA GO
GO DHAYIKKAH GO!
gosh man u 2 rok!lol
um layth u can rok 2 but when i asked wot r socialists... i kinda dnt understand the answer either coz i dnt really no wot communism is!

look u may say woteva u want,,,,, but im gonna demonstr8 whether u like it or not!
and if RESPECT r soo socialists or woteva then that means Salma Yaqoob is a div!! is that wot ur sayin??? coz she isnt! shes a luvli person who actually CARES WOTS happening to us muslims!!! unlike tony blair!

[Umm Layth]

GO AURORA GO
GO DHAYIKKAH GO!
gosh man u 2 rok!lol
um layth u can rok 2 but when i asked wot r socialists... i kinda dnt understand the answer either coz i dnt really no wot communism is!

look u may say woteva u want,,,,, but im gonna demonstr8 whether u like it or not!
and if RESPECT r soo socialists or woteva then that means Salma Yaqoob is a div!! is that wot ur sayin??? coz she isnt! shes a luvli person who actually CARES WOTS happening to us muslims!!! unlike tony blair!
You never heard of the term socialism or communism?

exactly how old are u or what world do you live in?

And yes, Salma Yaqoub is a div, silly women wants fame even if it means shaking hands and kissing foreign men and embracing an ideology like socialism which denies existence of God. Being Muslim and socialist is same as being Muslim and homosexual, ie your no longer Muslim. Oh yeah..but she wraps that cloth around her head ..but then so does that Qadiani clown Shazia Mirza. Funny thing is just like the Mirza clown the yaqoub clown sometimes doesnt wear the hijaab either. Interesting...she might strip a bit more closer to elections..these ppl woudl do anything for publicity.

BTW anyone know if Salma yaqoub and shagufta yaqoub sisters?

[slmz :)]

I NO HER AND SHE IS NOT A DIV OK!!!
oh i im 15 i hav cum across the terms but i jus dnt no the meanings...
she is not doing it 4 publicity.. shes doing this to stik up 4 herself and others... sum ppl havent got the guts to face the govrnment and say that theywere rong to go to rong and that they are gonna do sumthing about it.. seriously how many muslims are in parliament???
she 1 of the few that r helping us muslims politically...

[Umm Layth]

Face the govt? She is very intelligent isnt she? She doesnt like the govt ..yet she wants to join it?

There is nothing in Islam that allows for a Muslim to participate in kufr govt and system. Just like our Prophet (saw) never took part in the Qureshi govt, even when they offered him position. So I wonder whose Sunah is she following..oh yeah Karl Marx maybe.

Now you know why there arent Muslims in parliament. Do you feel enlightended ?

[slmz :)]

she doesnt want to join the government she wants to join palrlaiment.. or has she alredy dun that???

[dhakiyya]

Umm Layth

It seems that not only do you not understand alternative politics, but you don't understand mainstream politics either. I don't see how anyone can make an Islamic judgement on something that they don't understand. Oh, and there are Muslims in parliament and local government. They are elected in wards that have enough Muslims to vote them in to represent them.

How Parliamentary democracy works: (this is the system we have in the UK and yes there are lots of people campaigning to change it in various ways, but unless or until it changes you have to work with what you've got)

People in different areas of the country vote for people to represent them. These people go to parliament, to discuss things, like new laws or what taxes should be spent on. "parliament" has no agenda, its just a building where people make decisions. Now then, people form political parties with the intent of getting into parliament to influence these decisions. In fact, if your party gets more people into parliament than any other party, basically it's your party that makes the most decisions. So, if the Muslims start a political party, and get a majority in Parliament, we'd be able to make all the laws Islamic. That's how it works.

The current government is the party that has the majority in parliament. At the moment it is the Labour party, and when people say "I am against the government" they are talking about the Labour party (or whichever party is in at the time) If someone is standing in an election, they are not trying to join the current government, but to stop them from having a majority any more, and being able to dominate the decision making. Basically, the more candidates you can get into parliament, the more decision making power you get. Now I'd rather have Salma Yakoob in there than some BNP or some Labour candidate trying to influence things their way. Now wouldn't it be even better if there was a Muslim party to vote for? One which, if they were to get a majority in Parliament, would impliment Sharia law?

Mainstream democraic activities involve voting and writing to your MP - that is the candidate that is elected to parliament from your area - to make him or her discuss certain issues in Parliament. They are required to do something about all letters to them, even from people who don't support their party. Demonstration (e.g. going on marches) and Lobbying (going to parliament, meeting with MPs etc) are also part of democracy. Only people who feel really strongly about things tend to do those, but they are fairly affective at getting the issues discussed and have resulted in laws being changed.

Alternative politics is any kind of political activity outside the mainstream democratic system, and outside the mainstream parties. In the UK the mainstream parties (labour, tory, lib dem) are all capitalist, so anyone who opposes capitalism, (including Muslims), are by definition part of the Alternative politics movement (whether they are active or not). Alternative politics involves demonstrating, campaigning, lobbying, writing to MPs, government officials in any country, and also direct action. Direct action means going out and doing something about the problem. For example in the summer, myself and activists from all over the world went and rebuilt a home for a Palestinian family whose home had been destroyed by Israeli bulldozers. Most people consider protest to be a form of direct action, especially when the protest involves putting up banners on buildings, or planting flowers on parliament square to make a point about the environment and land ownership. It can also include (as an example of how creative direct action can be) dressing up as badgers and occupying a starbucks restaurant because they support the occupation of Palestine (see: http://www.bigcampaign.org/badgers.html ) Some forms of direct action are illegal and/or violent. Personally I will not get involved with violent direct action, but I will stand up for myself if necessary.

There are alternative politicial parties too, and there is no need whatsoever to join any of them to get involved in alternative politics or direct action. In fact the vast majority of people in Alternative politics are not a member of any party. Any specific action (e.g. a protest) is done for a single cause. For example, a protest to "stop the war in Iraq" is for the purpose of stopping the war in Iraq, and turning up to it says that you are against the war in Iraq. Nothing more, nothing less. Now that's regardless of who happened to organise the protest. Someone has to organise it, don't they?

I've been involved in UK alternative politics for years. I discovered that the better system that I and all the other anti-capitalists are fighting for has been detailed in the Qur'an for the last 1400 years. I have not changed my political opinions as a result of converting to Islam. I just realised that Allah has already given us the very system we are trying to create, and no only that but Allah has solved the problems that various lefties have been arguning about (not having had the guidance of ALLAH from the Qur'an) for ages. Islam is by its very nature anti-capitalism.

Salman al Farsi:

That's just what I'm saying, we should allow sympathetic non-Muslims to support our causes.

Going to a protest does not mean you are marching under the banner of the organisation that organised it. By turning up you are simply making your opposition to a certain thing very clear. Go along to a protest and you will see many different banners, including Muslim organisations. No-one stops anyone else from turning up, so you can turn up with your own banner if you want to make absolutely sure you are not marching under a kaafir banner.

Also "stop the war" is not a kaafir banner, because "stop the war" says "stop the war" and there is nothing kaafir about trying to stop the invasion of Iraq, in fact it is what ALLAh commands us to do, i.e. to defend Muslims from invasion. If the non-Muslims are actually beating us to it when it comes to defending Muslims, then shame on us!! Perhaps we should be the ones organising the protests rather than leaving it for the non-Muslims to do and then having to "join in" rather than taking the lead.

Slmz:

Where do you know Salma Yakoob from? (if that's not too nosy, you don't have to answer, and you can PM me if you want)

Socialism: any form of government that puts the needs of people before the needs of big business/money making. (kind of a wide definition really)

Communism: A system whereby all the wealth of a land is owned by the government and shared out between the people according to their need. (generally speaking people will get equal shares, but handicapped etc may need more money than average because of their handicap) Everyone works according to their capability, and the profits of all work go to the government to be shared out. Communism is an excellent system in theory, but in practice, people don't work hard if they aren't going to get paid, and in Russia, it took less than a year before the communist government was totally corrupt and failed to share the wealth out fairly (read George Orwell's Animal Farm to get an idea of how the corruption occurs - it is based on what happened in Russia)

As you can see, although neither system is Islam, the idea of ensuring that wealth is distibuted to the needy is the central idea in both systems, and also as you know Islam ensures this through zakat and charity.

Most anti-capitalists are not communist nor consider themselves as "socialists", and when you compare what the anti capitalists want with Islam, you see they are against usury and unfair trade,they are in favour of safeguarding the environment and making a sustainable society, all of which Islam will provide.

[Umm Layth]

Non-sense

Simple Rule is as Allah Tala states in the Qur'an Innal Hukmu Ila liAllah, TMQ "Rule is for none but Allah" and in surah al-Maidah "whosoever does not rule by whatever (Bima) Allah has revealed are the Kafirroon" (Wa manLam YahKum Bima AnzalAllahu fa Ulayka homul Kafiroon"

Simple rule of democracy is "Rule of man by man" so anyone who pariticipates in liberal democratic framework takes up the democratic challenge of legislating, adopting and implementing man made laws. While Allah Tala says in Suran an-nisa "Fa laa wa Rabbika Laa Yuminoona Hattaa yu¡¦hakkimooka fee maa Shajara baynahum, thumma laa yajidoo fee anfusihim harajam mimmaa qadayta wa yusallimooo tasleemaa" TMQ "But no, I swear by your lord (Allah), they will have no Eeman, until they make you, (O Prophet) rule between them in whatever they dispute amongst themselves, and then they find no resistance in their souls from what you have decided, instead they submit with absolute submission¨."

So anyone participating in the political system other than Islam is standing on dangrous grounds, since its haraam and believing in any sysyem other than islam is kufr.

You talk about Muslims in Parliament..lets see who? Mr Sarwar -what has he ever done for Islam or Muslims imprisoned in camp bay or bell marsh even, Khalid Mahmood from bahm was pro war.

This is the opinion of Muslims, except for the secular Muslims like Yaqoobi, and the MAB and MCB who only follow Islam in spiritual matters and divorce Islam from political matters...and deny the soverignty and power of Allah and supremacy of Shariah. Inface they consider shariah to be backward.

[Umm Layth]

Anyway I dont even understand why you became Muslim..cuz i m sure bible too or has the same values as what you believe conform with lefty ideas, as many christians would argue.

Is it the new trend to beocme Muslim? Or are u part of the integrationist agenda?

[dhakiyya]

Anyway I dont even understand why you became Muslim..cuz i m sure bible too or has the same values as what you believe conform with lefty ideas, as many christians would argue.

Is it the new trend to beocme Muslim? Or are u part of the integrationist agenda?

I think you need to be very careful before making accusations like that. All your words and deeds are to be judged by Allah.

I recognise the truth in the Qur'an. The fact it "conforms" with my previous "lefty ideas" is a statement of fact. My ideas that it is wrong to murder people and steal and that it's good to give charity and help the sick haven't changed either.

If you can't handle the idea that there are non-Muslims who share some of the same values as Islam that is your problem. Why don't you try looking for the good in others, instead of being suspicious of everything, including your Muslim brothers and sisters?

Yes there has been a big increase in conversions to Islam, because people are seeing the truth in Islam. Every other Muslim I ever spoke to sees this as a good thing.

What is an "intergrationalist agenda" anyway?

[Umm Layth]

How convenient, you accepted Islam because it conformed with what you already believed rather than accepting it and then changing ur thoughts and emotions according to it.

I wonder what you make of ISlamic rules regarding cutting the hand of the theif, flogging the adulterer, polygamy, killing homosexuals and fighting the disbelievers and polythist until fitnah disappears and deen of Allah prevails?

DO you just pick adn chose?

Integrationist agenda is what you are preaching, the unity of Idea, to divorce Islamic principles regarding politics, ruling, economics and socio education and adopting democracy leving islam for the mosque and homes only.

If Islam was established today, we would have to fight and kill these dirty socialist, communists because they are enemies of Allah in both ideological and political sense.

If you want to go and hold hands with homosexuals, dirty socialist who usually never have a bath and other wierdos by all means go ..but dont do it in the name of Islam do it in ur own name.

You dont actually become a Muslim by saying the Shahadah, you have to accept everything which Allah has legislated and one aspect is to never let the disbelievers have a way over the believers, and to hate them for the sake of Allah, not to make any alliances with them. The only thing which allows us to have relationship with them is either as neighbour, or for sake of dawah.

You may have time to write essays, i dont, its not even worth discussing ur demo crappy.

[dhakiyya]

Can you give me a reference for those verses please so I can check them for myself? (chapter and verse) I also don't see how exactly these verses prohibit attempting to change a kaafir system of government into an Islamic one. In fact they seem to suggest that that's precisely what you should be doing.

[dhakiyya]

How convenient, you accepted Islam because it conformed with what you already believed rather than accepting it and then changing ur thoughts and emotions according to it.

:confused: um...... is that supposed to make sense????

actually I gave up alcohol after converting to Islam, and started wearing hijab, and various other changes in lifestyle. I can't help it if the system of government I always supported is the same as is already in the Qur'an. It just is, okay??

I wonder what you make of ISlamic rules regarding cutting the hand of the theif, flogging the adulterer, polygamy, killing homosexuals and fighting the disbelievers and polythist until fitnah disappears and deen of Allah prevails?

cutting theives hands of, flogging the adulterer - provided it's in line with sharia3 law
polygamy - actually my husband's about to take a second wife.
fighting the disbelievers - I support Palestine and Iraq :rolleyes:

PLEASE get over your petty prejudices and preconcieved ideas....

DO you just pick adn chose?

You are making some very unkind and incorrect assumptions based on your own prejudice. Please get over them.

Integrationist agenda is what you are preaching, the unity of Idea, to divorce Islamic principles regarding politics, ruling, economics and socio education and adopting democracy leving islam for the mosque and homes only.

"unity of Idea" - what does that mean????

I have no intention of leaving Islam for the mosques and homes only. Have you not read anything I've written?

please take your pathetic assumptions and attacks on my character elsewhere. Like I said, if you refuse to see anything good in non Muslims, even non Muslims like Rachel Corrie who died protecting a Muslim family and their home, then that is your problem.

[Umm Layth]

Do you support man made law?

Verses TMQ al-imran 47-49
An-nisa 65

read the Tafseer of imam Qurtubi or Ibn Kathir (not the abrdiged one).

Islam has a clear cut political system which is derived in the same way as method of prayer is derived. If you dont want to follow that ...thats ur problem.

Anyway, ppl who become Muslim because they found some nice things in Islam dont last very long, like Tyson, Jemima khan, chris eubank..with the attitude u have i dont think u will last long either.

[dhakiyya]

No, I don't support man made law.

I am proposing using the existing system to attempt to change man made law into Islamic law.

I make decisions based on Qur'an and Sunnah, not on what some human being has to say (though i listen to opinions of humans that are based on Qur'an and Sunnah, but remember that they are human opinions and you can get humans that have very different opinions, even based on the same verses and hadith)

Most converts started of by finding stuff in Islam they just instinctively know is right. How well they cope with the difficult stuff is a matter for the individual. Some cope, others don't. It doesn't change the fact that large numbers of anti capitalists will find the very things they are fighting for in the Qur'an, because they happen to be the same. Yes, I am proposing making dawa to anti capitalists, part of that is letting them join you on demonstrations to do with those very things.

Al Imraan 47-49?????? can you check those numbers because those verses are about Allah creating things. Al Imraan 50 says "(I have come to you) to attest the Law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me" Al Nisaa' 65 isn't like any of your quotes either.