Post removal

[Stanley Stunodd]

even i get harassed at times too !http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif Hello sajid, I have a problem.


<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Hello sajid, I have a problem. I made a post and it was immediately close by AbuM.
Please see below:

http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/misc/navbits_start.gif (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=484772#)ummah.com forum (http://www.ummah.com/forum/index.php?) > Main (http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8) > The Courtroom (http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=96)http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/misc/navbits_finallink.gif (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?p=484772)In your mind, how do you visualize God/Allah ?
Stanley Stunodd (http://www.ummah.com/forum/member.php?u=5440)
Senior Member #1 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=484767&postcount=1)



AbuMubarak (http://www.ummah.com/forum/member.php?u=763)
Porter #2 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=484772&postcount=2)

this is islam, we dont visualize god
http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/buttons/threadclosed.gif (http://www.ummah.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=484767)

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47398 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47398)

In case it becomes deleted, I'll repost it precisely as the original, below.

In your mind, how do you visualize God/Allah ?

Like One great big -->http://www.jasoncohn.com/Eye-_01.gif
focused in your direction ?

Sincerely, how do you visualize Allah?God when you think of Her / Him / It / ? ... ?

Besides the post having been placed in the COURTROOM,
I do not see any problem with it, do you ?

I believe AbuM has gone way beyond his duties
of being a hall monitor with this action, do you ?

Please let me know either way, so that I will understand
what the function of this forum, truly is.

Thank you in advance, Richard aka Stanley
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Semantic]

An eye? Isn't it just orcs that think of their master in that way?

[Stanley Stunodd]

An eye? Isn't it just orcs that think of their master in that way?Well, frankly the whole concept of the post is asking for one's characterization or
depiction of how they envision Allah?God.
What else could I find on the internet which might give some indication of the intent of the question?


http://web.fkm.utm.my/islam/Allah.jpg

[sfvalley]

An eye? Isn't it just orcs that think of their master in that way?

yeah, but that one is lidless breathed in flame.

of course i could ask what word that rhymes with orc, but stan would not think that's funny.

on another side note i feel like i am harrassed. It seems like every once in a while people disagree with me even though i am right and they are wrong. How do i stop people from doing this?

[sfvalley]

i am being harassed, every day, on the forum

who do i speak to about it?










i am subjected to kufr from the kuffar and some of those who say they are muslim (they love to be called moderates)


now some of you may think this is funny, but when you think of the duty that we have as muslims, and medium of the computer, there is so much more that we can be doing, besides this daily onslaught of "opinions", when we know "opinions are like ............, everyone has one"

there are so many levels that mankind can achieve, but he loves to become bogged down with the petty and insignificant, because to aspire higher requires soul-searching and finger-pointing to himself

so i would like to know, who can i take my complaint to?

you can compain to me AM. I will listen and i will commiserate with you. I think a great thing you can do is vent and that can get rid of some of your frustrations. and a sympathetic ear can really be soothing and helpful. If you ever need someone to talk to or vent or need any type of opinion you can PM me. If it is really really serious you can call me.

[ZawjatuRaafi]

Stan we do not as Muslims envision Allah. This would fall into areas we as Muslims do not go and this is something that if we do not do images of Muhammad Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam we definitely would not place this on Ummah either... therefore i believe it was removed because of this. I do not know if the word for this legistically would be called shirk but I am sure it falls somewhere there in.

I doubt it was anything in the form of harrasment but moreso that we cannot delve into such areas, therefore it has no place on a muslim forum and Allah knows best...

[sajid]

Stan we do not as Muslims envision Allah. This would fall into areas we as Muslims do not go and this is something that if we do not do images of Muhammad Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam we definitely would not place this on Ummah either... therefore i believe it was removed because of this. I do not know if the word for this legistically would be called shirk but I am sure it falls somewhere there in.

I doubt it was anything in the form of harrasment but moreso that we cannot delve into such areas, therefore it has no place on a muslim forum and Allah knows best...


Stan,

as zawja pointed out...regarding this issue
a pm will be sent expalning u about this

[AbuMubarak]

it was not because of that eye

it was the theme of the thread, how do we VISUALIZE god?

we do not visualize god, period

whats so hard for you to understand about that?

i told you before stan, you sit there and think up question after question to throw on this forum

some of them stick, some wont

this was one that wasnt gonna stick, period

[AbuMubarak]

if you spent some time reading about islam, you would know we have major issues regarding someone giving us their VISUALIZATION of god

funny how you can pick out hadiths for this or that, or ayaat for this or that, but something as basic as not rendering any likeness of god, nor our own personal visualizations of god, all fall into major shirk

[ponderingstar]

http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif Hello sajid, I have a problem.






<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message --><!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
dear stan, this is ultimately a muslim website and although you may have not intented to offend anyone, pictures of allah in any way are simply unacceptable in our religion.

To ask muslims how we visualise Allah was answered for you by a muslim. If you want to know how other religions visualise allah you may wish to visit various websites which specialise in other religions. (i think you'll have fun on the hindu site ;) )

do not take this personally, it was not intended to be as such i am sure.

To leave the thread open would have caused people from non muslim thinking to post all types of images which they would see as being representativce of God. This ultimately would not sit well with Muslims because we know that Allah is beyond our comprehension in this way. It would have also been open to ridicule etc. from some of the athiest posters who enjoy mocking our beliefs.

When i was a child i used to visualise God (a very christian looking one, probably due to my education) but was taught that this was ridiculous and wrong. (the fact that i used to think he sat on the roof of the house opposite due to how people face that way when they prayed is also a testiment to my ignorance.)

Allah is a power beyond all of that.

He is way beyond an eye etc...

also bear in mind that a picture is worth a thousand words, and so controlling the impact of images is very difficult indeed. We have enough problems as humans misunderstanding each others words, pictures can be ever more problematic.

[Unreged2day]

dear stan, this is ultimately a muslim website and although you may have not intented to offend anyone, pictures of allah in any way are simply unacceptable in our religion.

The question was not, could you post a picture, depicting Allah.
The question was, how do you view Allah and His Kingdom ?
Throughout all the lessons contained withing the Quran, surely there are inklings of what & how to perceive Allah.
In the vain of a Peaceful, compassionate Father figuire.
A Stern & legal Monarch who takes delight in finding fault in his creations, so He may punish them for their faults.
An all-encompassing energy-force which permeates the entire Universe ???

Surely, the question was not in anyway slanderous or demeaning.

[ponderingstar]

The question was not, could you post a picture, depicting Allah.
The question was, how do you view Allah and His Kingdom ?
Throughout all the lessons contained withing the Quran, surely there are inklings of what & how to perceive Allah.
In the vain of a Peaceful, compassionate Father figuire.
A Stern & legal Monarch who takes delight in finding fault in his creations, so He may punish them for their faults.
An all-encompassing energy-force which permeates the entire Universe ???

Surely, the question was not in anyway slanderous or demeaning.
Dear Unreged2day,

asking the question od how Allah is perceived is one thing, ask what we understand his atributes to be etc. But to ask what we VISUALISE Allah to be is different.

By visualising we mean what is the/a visual representation of Allah. This is impossible. You can try and change what visualisation means but i don't think that's going to change the meaning of the word.

There are many things that are problematic when concerning visualising God. We have not attcked you, we have not condemned you, we are just telling yuo that within this littel Ummah community it is unacceptable.

If you wish to discuss how you think of God, what traits you think he has, thats fine, but posting a big hairy eyebrowed closed eye to express something on a visual plain that is not expressable is not acceptable in Islam.

it's like showing a picture of a boat and saying it is what you visualise what a cat is like, because you think they both purr. But far more obscure and unecessary because you actually have a pretty goid idea what a cat is like.

if you actually bother reading my initial post your question regarding the "slanderous and demeaning" will be answered.
regards.

[simona]

myby? therefore answer ===> www.gameusiscus.net (linoczka.blox.pl/html)

[guest]

Three Questions


There was a young man who went overseas to study for quite a long time.
When he returned, he asked his parents to find him a religious scholar or any expert who could answer his 3 questions.
Finally, his parents were able to find a Muslim scholar.

Young man: Who are you? Can you answer my questions?
Scholar: I am one of Allah (SubHana Wa Ta`ala )'s slaves and insha-Allah
(God willing), I will be able to answer your questions.
Young man : Are you sure? A lot of Professors and experts were not able to answer my questions.
Scholar: I will try my best, with the help of Allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala.
Young Man: I have 3 questions:
1. Does God exist? If so, show me His shape.
2. What is takdir (fate)?
3. If shaitan (Devil) was created from the fire, why at the end he will be thrown to hell that also created from fire. It certainly will not hurt him at all, since Shaitan (Devil) and the hell were created from fire. Did God not think of it this far?
Suddenly, the Scholar slapped the young man's face very hard.

Young Man (feeling pain): Why do you get angry at me?
Scholar: I am not angry. The slap is my answer to your three questions.
Young Man: I really don't understand.
Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: Of course, I felt the pain.
Scholar: So do you believe that pain exists?
Young Man: Yes
Scholar: Show me the shape of the pain!
Young Man: I cannot.
Scholar: That is my first answer. All of us feel God's existence without being able to see His shape.
Scholar: Last night, did you dream that you will be slapped by me?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: Did you ever think that you will get a slap from me, today?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: That is takdir (fate).
Scholar: My hand that I used to slap you, what is it created from?
Young Man: It is created from skin.
Scholar: How about your face, what is it created from?
Young Man: Skin.
Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: In pain.
Scholar: Even though Shaitan (Devil) and also the hell were created from the fire, if Allah wants, insha-Allah (God willing), the hell will become a very painful place for Shaitan (Devil).

[Stanley Stunodd]

Three Questions I, Richard Owl Mirror aka Stanley Stunodd, have been accuse of asking too many questions and not applying the answers receive but, simply ask a new question instead.

The wisdom embodied within your post bring up the "INTENT" behind my post which is in question.
In response to your post, rather than focusing upon the words of your post,
I would like to become the "young man who went overseas to study " and be availed by this Ummah
(as if you were my parents ) and ask "Three Questions".

I inquired of this Ummah, regarding how theY view Allah.
[CLOSED], was the response.

Question number One:
I Say: Practicing and adhering to Islam is akin to standing in an active crater of a volcano.
Muslims live their lives in fear, so as to not step upon the spot which might set off an explosion of this volcano.

Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme,
he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of stoning a human being to death for having sex.
When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father,
the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith,
in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch,
a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished.
Is my assessment of Islam correct?

Question number Two:
If Allah?God, gave mankind life, a thinking mind and freewill to chose their path in life,
scores of instruction manuals as how best to live, as in Heaven
(which religion should be the training ground, so we are worthy & prepared for citizenship).
Why is it that mankind has not found a way to implement this plan, given by Allah?God?
The problem continues, due to one side wishing to speak, while the other continues to fight on.
This comes from either side, day or night, but one day, someday, a man will rise and speak the truth within earshot of his enemy & Truth will spread like wildfire from that point on.
***






But, whose truth will prevail ?






This is why I wish to call for a summit between each head of state, from each country found within the region commonly known as the Middle East.
No other countries will be allowed access to this summit.
What more important task do these rulers have, that they cannot join together until
such time as agreements of cooperation would prevail for the benefit of the entire region.
Make no mistake though, Israel is a Nation-State with an equal vote.

Question number Three:
As I see, ... Islam stands upon two legs, that of worshiping Allah & learning his lessons of living in a righteous way.
When Islam was formulated in a cohesive manner, under Muhammad,
His directives were for Social reforms in accordance to Allah's will.
These "implemented" reforms were welcomed due to the lawlessness of societies in those days.
With strangers filtering throughout the cities, unnoticed at times.
What is it within man, which makes him rebel against the just and righteous laws of his creator?
My short answer is ("man is a physical being, living in a physical world, which he must control")
Today, is appears that Islam is once again, attempting to overrule the physical realities such as:
MAGNA CARTA http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html (http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html)
In a physical world, violence and destruction is inevitable.
During my time with you here at this Ummah, I have always advocated an alternative to violence, in solving our world problems. Regardless if these are border, water rights, starvation, the list goes on forever.
My signature makes this plain, with words as my weapon of choice, and Truth as my shield, ...
My presence among you, is to implore this alternative be considered, and possibly forwarded.
The spoken word, with truth behind it, is the most powerful weapon god ever gave us.
I proposed in earlier posts:
"Shame, is the most damaging of all wounds which can be inflicted through the use of words."
If the social benefits of Islam's sharia is ultimately more beneficial to all of mankind,
standing up for this justice should be offered toward all of mankind.
Since Islam is fighting against being persecuted by an aggressor, what better weapon than to wound
your advisories underbelly? Doing this through SHAME, in a world body, such as the UN, or the UAU
for a fellow human being, I believe is what Jesus meant when picking up the downtrodden from the gutter and giving them hope of a new day.
So, my question to this Ummah is this, do you believe Islamic representatives would go out of their way to lend a hand to a downtrodden and suppressed people, TODAY?

Count the ranking Men involved with the shaping of governments around the world.
Next, count all the pawns, pushed to the front lines, in order to sacrifice themselves for the King's sake.

If only all the Kings pawns, and all the Kings horsepower, would learn these few words.







In a Democracy



Silence
is Permission


A true Leader is one who takes his direction and mandate from the people he serves, and sees to it that they are carried out, as the people demand.

I wish to say, I personally feel that America's Democracy has a crack in it at this point in time.
This is due to the will of the people, allowing others to conduct their business for them, while they go shopping and to picnics.
Life has become so self-centered in America that the citizens of this nation have relegated the governing of our affairs to others, just as long as they are safe, secure & prosperous.

Usama Bin Laden knows this lesson, and this has become his weapon of choice, steal away Americas safety, security & prosperity.

Regardless of the future outcome of our Presidential election, I believe Muslims could cause due influence upon the American Government, in the World body of the United nations, simply by bringing forth a petition for the unconditional release of Leonard Peltier. @ http://www.freepeltier.org/ (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://www.freepeltier.org/');)

[sfvalley]

I, Richard Owl Mirror aka Stanley Stunodd, have been accuse of asking too many questions and not applying the answers receive but, simply ask a new question instead.

The wisdom embodied within your post bring up the "INTENT" behind my post which is in question.
In response to your post, rather than focusing upon the words of your post,
I would like to become the "young man who went overseas to study " and be availed by this Ummah
(as if you were my parents ) and ask "Three Questions".

I inquired of this Ummah, regarding how theY view Allah.
[CLOSED], was the response.

Question number One:
I Say: Practicing and adhering to Islam is akin to standing in an active crater of a volcano.
Muslims live their lives in fear, so as to not step upon the spot which might set off an explosion of this volcano.

Is my assessment of Islam correct?

Question number Two:
If Allah?God, gave mankind life, a thinking mind and freewill to chose their path in life,
scores of instruction manuals as how best to live, as in Heaven
(which religion should be the training ground, so we are worthy & prepared for citizenship).
Why is it that mankind has not found a way to implement this plan, given by Allah?God?


Question number Three:
As I see, ... Islam stands upon two legs, that of worshiping Allah & learning his lessons of living in a righteous way.
When Islam was formulated in a cohesive manner, under Muhammad,
His directives were for Social reforms in accordance to Allah's will.
These "implemented" reforms were welcomed due to the lawlessness of societies in those days.
With strangers filtering throughout the cities, unnoticed at times.
What is it within man, which makes him rebel against the just and righteous laws of his creator?
My short answer is ("man is a physical being, living in a physical world, which he must control")
Today, is appears that Islam is once again, attempting to overrule the physical realities such as:
MAGNA CARTA http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html (http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html)
In a physical world, violence and destruction is inevitable.
During my time with you here at this Ummah, I have always advocated an alternative to violence, in solving our world problems. Regardless if these are border, water rights, starvation, the list goes on forever.
My signature makes this plain, with words as my weapon of choice, and Truth as my shield, ...
My presence among you, is to implore this alternative be considered, and possibly forwarded.
The spoken word, with truth behind it, is the most powerful weapon god ever gave us.
I proposed in earlier posts:
"Shame, is the most damaging of all wounds which can be inflicted through the use of words."
If the social benefits of Islam's sharia is ultimately more beneficial to all of mankind,
standing up for this justice should be offered toward all of mankind.
Since Islam is fighting against being persecuted by an aggressor, what better weapon than to wound
your advisories underbelly? Doing this through SHAME, in a world body, such as the UN, or the UAU
for a fellow human being, I believe is what Jesus meant when picking up the downtrodden from the gutter and giving them hope of a new day.
So, my question to this Ummah is this, do you believe Islamic representatives would go out of their way to lend a hand to a downtrodden and suppressed people, TODAY?
[/color]



[/center]
Why can't you ever make a simple question or a simple statement in one font size and colour? i refuse to try to follow posts that are visually complicated. Stan, just be like everyone else sheesh

[ponderingstar]

Why can't you ever make a simple question or a simple statement in one font size and colour? i refuse to try to follow posts that are visually complicated. Stan, just be like everyone else sheesh

:rotfl: i know, stan, your visual writing style is an effort and a half...

[ZawjatuRaafi]

4 stans in one thread huh??? IP check!!!

This is all getting ridiculous...

[Stanley Stunodd]

4 stans in one thread huh??? IP check!!!

This is all getting ridiculous...
Three post of myself logged in and this was me as well :
Unreged2day
Guest

[AbuMubarak]

sajid

since when do we have guests posting?

do you think its easy being the porter around here, without leaving the door open and any ol' body comes up in here tracking their shoes all over the place????

sheesh

[Stanley Stunodd]

Why can't you ever make a simple question or a simple statement in one font size and colour? i refuse to try to follow posts that are visually complicated. Stan, just be like everyone else sheeshI, Richard Owl Mirror aka Stanley Stunodd, have been accuse of asking too many questions and not applying the answers receive but, simply ask a new question instead.

The wisdom embodied within your post bring up the "INTENT" behind my post which is in question.
In response to your post, rather than focusing upon the words of your post,
I would like to become the "young man who went overseas to study " and be availed by this Ummah
(as if you were my parents ) and ask "Three Questions".

I inquired of this Ummah, regarding how theY view Allah.
[CLOSED], was the response.

Question number One:
I Say: Practicing and adhering to Islam is akin to standing in an active crater of a volcano.
Muslims live their lives in fear, so as to not step upon the spot which might set off an explosion of this volcano.

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset"></FONT>
Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme,
he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of stoning a human being to death for having sex.
When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father,
the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith,
in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch,
a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</FONT>
Is my assessment of Islam correct?

Question number Two:
If Allah?God, gave mankind life, a thinking mind and freewill to chose their path in life,
scores of instruction manuals as how best to live, as in Heaven
(which religion should be the training ground, so we are worthy & prepared for citizenship).
Why is it that mankind has not found a way to implement this plan, given by Allah?God?

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">The problem continues, due to one side wishing to speak, while the other continues to fight on. </FONT>
This comes from either side, day or night, but one day, someday, a man will rise and speak the truth within earshot of his enemy & Truth will spread like wildfire from that point on.
***
But, whose truth will prevail ?

This is why I wish to call for a summit between each head of state, from each country found within the region commonly known as the Middle East.
No other countries will be allowed access to this summit.
What more important task do these rulers have, that they cannot join together until
such time as agreements of cooperation would prevail for the benefit of the entire region.
Make no mistake though, Israel is a Nation-State with an equal vote.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></FONT>

Question number Three:
As I see, ... Islam stands upon two legs, that of worshiping Allah & learning his lessons of living in a righteous way.
When Islam was formulated in a cohesive manner, under Muhammad,
His directives were for Social reforms in accordance to Allah's will.
These "implemented" reforms were welcomed due to the lawlessness of societies in those days.
With strangers filtering throughout the cities, unnoticed at times.
What is it within man, which makes him rebel against the just and righteous laws of his creator?
My short answer is ("man is a physical being, living in a physical world, which he must control")
Today, is appears that Islam is once again, attempting to overrule the physical realities such as:
MAGNA CARTA http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html (http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/magna-carta.html)
In a physical world, violence and destruction is inevitable.
During my time with you here at this Ummah, I have always advocated an alternative to violence, in solving our world problems. Regardless if these are border, water rights, starvation, the list goes on forever.
My signature makes this plain, with words as my weapon of choice, and Truth as my shield, ...
My presence among you, is to implore this alternative be considered, and possibly forwarded.
The spoken word, with truth behind it, is the most powerful weapon god ever gave us.
I proposed in earlier posts:
"Shame, is the most damaging of all wounds which can be inflicted through the use of words."
If the social benefits of Islam's sharia is ultimately more beneficial to all of mankind,
standing up for this justice should be offered toward all of mankind.
Since Islam is fighting against being persecuted by an aggressor, what better weapon than to wound
your advisories underbelly? Doing this through SHAME, in a world body, such as the UN, or the UAU
for a fellow human being, I believe is what Jesus meant when picking up the downtrodden from the gutter and giving them hope of a new day.
So, my question to this Ummah is this, do you believe Islamic representatives would go out of their way to lend a hand to a downtrodden and suppressed people, TODAY?
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">
Count the ranking Men involved with the shaping of governments around the world.
Next, count all the pawns, pushed to the front lines, in order to sacrifice themselves for the King's sake.

If only all the Kings pawns, and all the Kings horsepower, would learn these few words.
In a Democracy
Silence
is Permission


A true Leader is one who takes his direction and mandate from the people he serves, and sees to it that they are carried out, as the people demand.

I wish to say, I personally feel that America's Democracy has a crack in it at this point in time.
This is due to the will of the people, allowing others to conduct their business for them, while they go shopping and to picnics.
Life has become so self-centered in America that the citizens of this nation have relegated the governing of our affairs to others, just as long as they are safe, secure & prosperous.

Usama Bin Laden knows this lesson, and this has become his weapon of choice, steal away Americas safety, security & prosperity.

Regardless of the future outcome of our Presidential election, I believe Muslims could cause due influence upon the American Government, in the World body of the United nations, simply by bringing forth a petition for the unconditional release of Leonard Peltier. @ http://www.freepeltier.org/ (http://javascript<b></b>:ol('http://www.freepeltier.org/');)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
</FONT>

[ponderingstar]

do you think its easy being the porter around here, without leaving the door open and any ol' body comes up in here tracking their shoes all over the place????


:rotfl:

[ponderingstar]

okay stan,


i still lost it after the first q. i'll try again later. VERY long and difficult to read posts make PS dizzy.

1.

Allah is not offended. Allah had given us ways to make society work. There are rules for the acheivement of social stability. that is why so many proofs are required etc. we do not flaunt our weaknesses. Ideally in a non corrupt world, once this social stability is acheived, all the easier and better it is to fulfil our purpose, which is to worship Allah. NOT because he needs it, but because we do.

In Islam Allah is beyond comprehension. he is hence not like a father.

[sajid]

ws

its just this particular forum only the trouble shooting thing its for people if they have problems with their account or anything cos my Main Forum email address is not working at the moment and ive no idea whats up with it so if anyone wants to contact they will be getting bounced back emails so ive left this free for all until i sort something out.....its just this forum besides i dont think people shud be having discussions here shud be moved to General board or something ive left this specifically for forum diagnostics and help
sajid

since when do we have guests posting?

do you think its easy being the porter around here, without leaving the door open and any ol' body comes up in here tracking their shoes all over the place????

sheesh

[Stanley Stunodd]

:rotfl:
Originally Posted by AbuMubarak

do you think its easy being the porter around here, without leaving the door open and any ol' body comes up in here tracking their shoes all over the place????

http://www.ediscountwholesalers.com/tin_signs/personalities_3_stooges/PG_435_LG.jpg
http://www.erskine.edu/seminary/gore/iraq/pictures/Three%20Stooges%20CH%20Waldrop%20CH%20Gore%20CH%20 Lowe1.JPG


Guest, Guest & Guest ? = Tom, **** & Harry ?

[Stanley Stunodd]

As this thread is both about Help Desk (http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=100) > Trouble Shooting (http://www.ummah.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=36) and Thread: Post removal (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47420) ,
And the reason for it's being, is due to my actions, I believe I should make ( at least ) one more comment.
I sincerely apologize for attempting to bring some c o l o r & character to the forum.
I also apologize for utilizing the http://www.mcm.edu/mcminfo/button.jpg feature.

I would like to continue posting on this forum but, only if I may make a suggestion to the members regarding my thought's & views.
Whether you may agree or not, with that which I speak,
If I may ask of this Ummah, to use my views as a springboard to propel the truth as is regarded within Islam, rather than attacking me for having an opposing view.

If it pleases everyone, I can write my posts in a style which continues throughout each thought without utilizing punctuation or highlighting a section either through the size of the font or the color I speak with.
Heck, if it's easier to read, I'll even forego the spellchecker :)

One more item which I would like to freely address, is my emotional state TODAY.
I'm quite certain that is has an effect upon the mood or respond I may make at any given time.

I joined this forum, not out of desperation because of being disillusioned by all other forms of worship or guidance but, to discover who the people are that adhere to Islam, each in their own way and find out if there truly is a common denominator.

In my constant requests for answers to some of the most archaic aspects being adhered to within Islam, it is not that I am ridiculing Islam so much as I am attempting to give this Ummah, the opportunity to present it's truth and show me, as well as all who may read the responses, an opportunity to learn the correct answer, according to Islam.
Hence, at heart, I'm still a Master Baiter.

In my mind, a true Islamic response to my initial question of :
In your mind, how do you visualize God/Allah ? (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47398)
should have been an explanation, absent of anger or animosity.
Which brings me back to discovering that elusive common denominator.

[AbuMubarak]

each one of your posts are making my eyes hurt

too much, too long, too confusing

we dont really need you to teach us your truth, nor does islam need you to propel truth, as a matter of fact, you dont know the truth

why dont you learn the truth, then maybe you can get a better shot

but if you are going to ask wacky questions, and each one is wackier than the one before, you can imagine that your posts will be deleted edited or what have you

its the nature of being the MASTER BAITER

[AbuMubarak]

i feel like i am harrassed. It seems like every once in a while people disagree with me even though i am right and they are wrong. How do i stop people from doing this??my sentiments, exactly, sfvalley

[AbuMubarak]

maybe i can sue sajid and baba for allowing these posters to harass me?

maybe we should have harassment awareness?

you heard of columbine, where if you bully people, they can shoot you, so after columbine, everyone has a anti-bully policy

i recommend we have an anti-bullying-the-porter awareness program

no one is allowed the harass the porter

i know a few people who deserve at least 100 community hours in such a class

[ponderingstar]

In my mind, a true Islamic response to my initial question of :
In your mind, how do you visualize God/Allah ? (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47398)
should have been an explanation, absent of anger or animosity.
Which brings me back to discovering that elusive common denominator.
how is a statement of fact a sign of animosity or anger. AM may have been abrupt but i dont think he was being angry... i dunno? i dont know.

stan you say certain things at times which suggest you wish to "civilise" us muslims, but we dont want that intrusion upon our beliefs. Although muslims are imperfect we could never say that our religion is.

i realise you come form very christian perspective. but it just doesn't make sense to a muslim.

[Stanley Stunodd]

if you are going to ask wacky questions, and each one is wackier than the one before,As I said earlier, asking a question is simply a springboard for others to pronounce the truth about the topic at hand.

I asked one, if I went to the Ka'ba, would I gain entry ?
That could be a simple question or it could develop into a very complex question about the root origins of the Ka'ba
Today, Islamic protectors guard the Ka'ba and tend to it's upkeep.
They have also for generations, rebuilt it and repaired it after wars have caused damage to it.
But, the root origin states that it should belong to ALL of Mankind.

Is the above, an example of one of those WACKY QUESTIONS you refer to ?

[Stanley Stunodd]

how is a statement of fact a sign of animosity or anger. AM may have been abrupt but i dont think he was being angry... i dunno? i dont know.
AbuMubarak (http://www.ummah.com/forum/member.php?u=763)
Porter #2 (http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=484772&postcount=2)
this is islam, we dont visualize god
http://www.ummah.com/forum/images/buttons/threadclosed.gif (http://www.ummah.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=484767)stan you say certain things at times which suggest you wish to "civilise" us muslims, but we dont want that intrusion upon our beliefs.
Do you mean civility, such as the cessation of stoning people for having SEX?Although muslims are imperfect we could never say that our religion is.
When you mix religion with social orders such as the slicing off of one's hand because they stole some bread to feed their children, or stoning a perosn to death simply because they had SEX, then yes I am guilty of
"wishing to "civilise" muslims" for the greater good of Islam.i realise you come form very christian perspective.
but it just doesn't make sense to a muslim.
Actually, you are completely wrong on this account.
Simply because one is born into a family which practices a particular faith, doesn't mean they automatically are of that faith nor believe in that faith.
From the moment of becoming self-aware, I knew instinctively that these religious institutions are not pleasing to God.
I also reviewed every religious doctrine to find morsals of truth, mixed in with history of certain peoples and their social structures of their particular day.
I simply see the workings of God's Kingdom with more clarity than most religions teach their followers.
The very pointed question within the post being discussed which asked:
" Like One great big Eye, focused in your direction ? "
Was merely meant as a metaphor to begin the thread.
I used this phrase, particularly because it seems to me that Islam as a whole,
regards Allah?God as an all-powerful ruling monarch, who finds wrongdoing in his subjects.
This, I believe stems from the root religion of the Torah, being fearful of offending God.
Which is why my posts are most likely found to be out of order, or beyond that which Muslims discuss or contemplate upon.

I ask each of you, monitors, admins & member posters, look around at the content being discussed on this forum. It's mostly about Wars, rumors of wars & one group being suppressed by a "conqueror".
Take all of the above and apply it against the words I wrote concerning the two neighbors, a fenceline with a fruit tree growing on both sides of the fence.
If this one concept were taken to the streets, all around the world, by the masses of people, demanding their leaders make decisions in accordance which just such logic, THIS I believe would alleviate the vast majority of our worlds problems and in accordance with the will of Allah?God, we would soon learn to live in peaceful harmony, just as he wishes for us.

Admittedly, I certainly could be going slightly mad but, I also may be presenting truths to this Ummah which they might consider, for the sake of their children & grandchildren.

When I registered for participation on this forum, I didn't see any button which required me to

http://www.ideas2market.qld.gov.au/(oov4ljvjujjr4h24kjzqmq45)/images/submit_button.gif to http://skillcity.iaaf.uwa.edu.au/images/header/submit_button_roll.gif otherwise http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/light/grabbagimages/button-answers-over.gif regarding http://www.4yi.com/2001/100801WhatIsIslam/button.jpg or seek the http://schultz.kewill.net/images/exit_button.gif

[Al-Nasser]

i like creative people

[ponderingstar]

well you know what stan. I realise you have had it tough but please dont allow yur victim mentality provide excuses for you annoying habits. WHy have you not even answered my post regarding social structure? Are you just here to bang a drum?

As for what brother AM said in the closed thread are you offended by its abrupt nature? If you are i think you are being EXCESSIVEY touchy. you are a fully grown man not a child.

i will attempt to answer your reaction to the best of my limited knowledge and ability some other beter informed members may correct me.

stoning to death; man and woman. in circumstances in which FOUR EYE witnesses are provided. this is the way social stability is maintained. if you think public orgies are all the rage then thats fine but please don't come with those views in an attempt to give muslims "civility". even this requirement promotes the idea of hiding faults in society not promoting them.

please repond.

secondly. Stealing for food as far as i have been lead to believe does not require such a punishment.

please respond.

As for religious institutions, this may be the unfortunate future of the Ummah, but islam is not a religious institution it is an alternative way of life. An alternative that makes sense to a whole load of people. it is a FULL system not a bunch of random nice ideas that don't add up in the real world.

if you are still crying about your silly bushy eyebrow how about getting over it and starting a new thread in comparative religion? titled "what is your perception of God"? and instead of pictures people can just use words eh?

please respond

i think you do have a christian mentality ingrained within you. the god as father thing, the desire for martyrdom. etc. VERY christian.

It is the nature of people to have pride in themselves. i do it and do not even realsie it. It is bad. humility is difficult to acheive.

"From the moment of becoming self-aware, I knew instinctively that these religious institutions are not pleasing to God."

what makes your instinct better or worse than anyone elses? we all have instincts. they tell us different things.there are people who are instinctively athiests, hedonists, etc. What gives you authority over reality?

please repond.

[Stanley Stunodd]

i like creative people
Admittedly, I certainly could be going slightly mad but, ...
http://www.ideas2market.qld.gov.au/(oov4ljvjujjr4h24kjzqmq45)/images/submit_button.gif to http://skillcity.iaaf.uwa.edu.au/images/header/submit_button_roll.gif otherwise http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/light/grabbagimages/button-answers-over.gif regarding http://www.4yi.com/2001/100801WhatIsIslam/button.jpg or seek the http://schultz.kewill.net/images/exit_button.gif

[ponderingstar]

well i suppose i dont qualify for a response... ho hum...

i suppose i can come across a bit jagged. sorry stan.

i hope you stay, but stop trying to "civilise these darn natives" ... or whatever it is that you want to do...

[Stanley Stunodd]

well you know what Stan. I realize you have had it tough but please don't allow your victim mentality provide excuses for you annoying habits. Why have you not even answered my post regarding social structure? Are you just here to bang a drum?

As for what brother AM said in the closed thread are you offended by its abrupt nature?
If you are I think you are being EXCESSIVELY touchy. you are a fully grown man not a child.

I will attempt to answer your reaction to the best of my limited knowledge and ability some other better informed members may correct me.

stoning to death; man and woman. in circumstances in which FOUR EYE witnesses are provided. this is the way social stability is maintained. if you think public orgies are all the rage then that's fine but please don't come with those views in an attempt to give Muslims "civility". even this requirement promotes the idea of hiding faults in society not promoting them.

please respond. ~ "FOUR EYE witnesses " ~ "if you think public orgies are all the rage" ???
The description of the application of sharia in this matter, leads me to conclude that it is a non-binding edict,
which is written but, usually never applied due to it's requirements.
We have archaic laws in America, like a fine for spitting in the gutter on Sunday, etc...
Pretty much a non-binding, enforceable issue but yet, it remains on the law books.

secondly. Stealing for food as far as I have been lead to believe does not require such a punishment.

please respond. ~ "Stealing for food " & the attributable punishment, based upon sharia law.
My perception of this topic may be due to western media as my source of news in distant lands.
Perhaps it would be of use to me, if somebody would list offenses which actually do require this aggressive punishment?

* As for religious institutions, this may be the unfortunate future of the Ummah,
but Islam is not a religious institution it is an alternative way of life. *
An alternative that makes sense to a whole load of people. it is a FULL system
not a bunch of random nice ideas that don't add up in the real world.
please respond. ~ " unfortunate future of the Ummah"
In my heart, each word I have written on this forum has been with the intentions of offering assistance in the form of "deep thought's",
which one may go through life, never asking themselves.
if you are still crying about your silly bushy eyebrow how about getting over it and starting a new thread in comparative religion? titled "what is your perception of God"? and instead of pictures people can just use words eh?
please respond. ~ "titled "what is your perception of God"? "
If my presence is still welcome, I shall take your advice. Thank You!

I think you do have a Christian mentality ingrained within you.
the god as father thing, the desire for martyrdom. etc. VERY Christian.
please respond. ~ "Christian mentality ingrained "
It is only natural that I would absorb that which is most prevalent around me in my daily life.
But, it is not the prevalence of Christianity which forms my opinions but,
the message of "Sonship of the Father" & "the brotherhood of mankind".
This very concept is the basis of what separates the various major religions of this world.
Which is why I asked: In your mind, how do you visualize God/Allah ?
Like One great big Eye, focused in your direction ?
I had no mal-intent in asking the question, and YES, I was surprised that within 30 seconds of having posted it,
AbuM had responded and closed the thread.
It is the nature of people to have pride in themselves.
I do it and do not even realist it. It is bad. humility is difficult to achieve.
please respond. ~ "humility is difficult to achieve"
Are my posts viewed as being filled with hubris (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hubris) ?

"From the moment of becoming self-aware, I knew instinctively that these religious institutions are not pleasing to God."
what makes your instinct better or worse than anyone else's? we all have instincts.
they tell us different things.there are people who are instinctively atheists, hedonists, etc.
What gives you authority over reality?
please respond. ~ "What gives you authority over reality? "
Are my posts viewed as being filled with hubris (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hubris) ?
Is my signature, intimidating ?
Are the challenges I present, above anyone's will to promote ?
You mention "humility is difficult to achieve", my guess is that because I am bold and forthright in my inquiries,
that is perceived as a lack of humility. Right?
If I may ask, (without drawing any comparisons between myself and any other person)
Did any, or all of the great Prophets who walked this earth since time began for mankind, lack humility?
Therefore, men can stand up, speak truths to the people and do so, without a lack of humility.
(without drawing any comparisons between myself and any other person)
In all humility, I must ask once again, take a really good review of what transpires on this forum,
then ask yourself, is this a representation of ISLAM, or Muslims.
For that answer is one of the reasons for which I came to be among you.
I found this forum, due to a search for information, and a webpage popped up for this forum.
You mention "humility is difficult to achieve", therefore, look upon all the content on this forum,
and ask yourselves, how much humility is being given or received ?
I realize nobody likes to be challenged, especially regarding spiritual matters.
I truly believe, Islam as a whole body, will only achieve it's peace and sancuary through example.
Rather than leaders standing before world bodies and saying:
With words as my weapon of choice, and Truth as my shield, ....
Young "lions" are sent out and die, all for a cause which could be averted by utilizing WORDS.

please respond. ~ ..................................., please ?

[Stanley Stunodd]

Originally Posted by ponderingstar
Why have you not even answered my post regarding social structure?
Are you just here to bang a drum?

Please refresh my memory regarding the post in question, I may have missed it.
"Are you just here to bang a drum?"
Do not most member bang their own personal drum ?
And from the looks of it, those who cheer deaths, seem to be the loudest voices.
The drum can be a beautiful and alluring instrument in the proper hands.
Given to an unlearned child, they make a lot of noise which has no rhythm.
In today's world, passions run wild.
They can & are manipulated by those seeking power and Kingdoms to rule over.
I hear calls for this caliph to appear and begin a new chapter in Islamic history.
Through the process of the American "occupation" and resulting election process, a coalition government between Iran & Iraq will develop, issuing this caliph everyone so desires.

So why is there still fighting in the streeets ?

[ponderingstar]

please respond. ~ ..................................., please ?
Errrm what am i responding to?

if you're talking about humility then i think you sometimes come across as having a very slight messianic complex, which was embedded into the consciousness of this forum when you had your vision. when most muslims talk in this forum it is with the knowlegde that Allah knows best. we are just peeps. we think there is a gerater purpose and that most people will crave this at some point. i feel that you seem to think that YOU personally have found this greater purpose and this just seems strange to most of us.

i appreciate that you have a kind heart and that you value the greater good and that you want peace etc. but for most muslims Islam make a lot of sense. Like even if there are small things that dont add up there is SO MUCH THAT does that it seems impossible to be from anywhere other than God. i mean i just get amazed at how much sense it makes sometimes... but then as a muslim i would. anyway, you seem to suggest you haev better answers for us than Islam as it stands, and stan i am not blind, i see what things you are sayig but at no point do i think "OMG! stan has come up with this WHOLE social system which makes sense and is logical etc." you have some sincere and important points but a lot of times you seem to ignore things which are VERY obvious to us.

Like harping on about the woman being stoned. DO you understand how the logic of the law is seperated from those who wish to manipulate it?

its just weird.

as for the eye thing. It's such a staple good, not having images of God. I mean to a muslim it just feels like a way to idolatry or something for a start. also it suggests that we can express something which is a basic fact in our religion we cannot express. the visual medium is a very strong and powerful one. if you study the history of art or film you will know this. It his highly loaded and powerful and to play around with it is not safe. You could probably read thousands upon thousands of books regarding intention and interpretation in the visual medium.

anyway i have no idea what your asking me to respond to...

i am glad you can see how you may have misunderstood some of the points you had made and now i'm just off topic i think....

[Stanley Stunodd]

Errrm what am i responding to? ...
Originally Posted by Stanley Stunodd
please respond. ~ ..................................., please ?
Actually, I was refering to each instance whereby I responded to your plea of "please respond. ~ ".

I took the time to go point by point in response to your post,
all I asked for was the same in return.

[ponderingstar]

Actually, I was refering to each instance whereby I responded to your plea of "please respond. ~ ".

I took the time to go point by point in response to your post,
all I asked for was the same in return.
sorry stan i have dificullty in understanding a few posters on this forum and you're one of them. I mean i'm just talking about writing style now. so basically are you askig me to frespomd individually to each of the respponses that you gave to my points?

sorry to be a pian becasue i can do that if thats what you'd like... i just didn;t geddit.

[Stanley Stunodd]

sorry stan i have dificullty in understanding a few posters on this forum and you're one of them. I mean i'm just talking about writing style now. so basically are you askig me to frespomd individually to each of the respponses that you gave to my points?

sorry to be a pian becasue i can do that if thats what you'd like... i just didn;t geddit.
Good Morning PS,

Yes, in you original post you included 4 please repond's , one after each of your questions.
Since there are so many varied points, I would appreciate it if you could touch upon each point, however briefly.

[ponderingstar]

please respond. ~ ..................................., please ?dear stan i am going to try and address the things you wished i reposnd to although since you were responding to me originally i did not think that you had counterpoints so i am a little confused.... :scratch:

"The description of the application of sharia in this matter, leads me to conclude that it is a non-binding edict,
which is written but, usually never applied due to it's requirements.
We have archaic laws in America, like a fine for spitting in the gutter on Sunday, etc...
Pretty much a non-binding, enforceable issue but yet, it remains on the law books."

well i believe the laws are there for a few reasons. Primarily because i think that having sex outside of wedlock is not permitted neither is having sex with someone else when you are married to someone else. I realaise that to people in the west these laws can seem a little irrelevent. They believe that free love is okay as it is love. but it really isn't love it basically sex. before the pill free love was not particularly acceptable here and even since the pill most women feel weary of men who are out for a bit of "free love" i know many women are not, from my personal experience these women do tend to be of the emotionally unstable nature. a couple i know have ended up marryign men and becoming very loyal although along with being EXTREMELY clingy... ho hum...

so other than these acts not being acceptable for the protection of a fully functioning society, the laws have conditions upon them which make it very very difficult to enforce them on innocent people. If a person WAS having an affair openly and with no regard for the effects on society, then the punishament is harsh and they are fully aware of it. Allah had created a societal structure in which people can enjoy intimate relations to their hearts content. It is not as though Islam has ever been a fan of life long celibacy.

"My perception of this topic may be due to western media as my source of news in distant lands.
Perhaps it would be of use to me, if somebody would list offenses which actually do require this aggressive punishment?"


in regards to stealing you may wish to ask some more knowledgable member of teh forum. I am sorry i am not able to answer this question. i have been told by family memebers that this does not apply if the thief is for example staeling a loaf of bread to feed his family. bUT my fa,mily members are a mixed bag and tell me all sorts of things:D .

In my heart, each word I have written on this forum has been with the intentions of offering assistance in the form of "deep thought's",
which one may go through life, never asking themselves.

I am not suggesting that philosphising is pointless but for a muslim it can seem so. It people philosphise regarding the nature of man or the nature of creation then that is all well and good. However we feel we understand "why are we here" "what is our pupose" "what is right and wrong" amongst many other things. It is not because we blindly accept them but because we feel we understand them. We do think deeply and analyse just as deeply.
6 + 5 = 11 BUT if we were to apply a new set of rules and codes for a new mathematical model 6 + 5 could very easily = 3. Although this may be logical when working on for example a scale of 1 to 8 which then return back to 1 like a clock, it does not have much use in everyday life. (although something similar can, as when reading a 24hour clock :D )

to think we do not enjoythe luxuries of sitting and pondering the greater nature of things simply because we are muslims is incorrect, however we feel we have many of the basics explained to us.

It is only natural that I would absorb that which is most prevalent around me in my daily life.
But, it is not the prevalence of Christianity which forms my opinions but,
the message of "Sonship of the Father" & "the brotherhood of mankind".

The sonship of father thing is very christian from where i am standing. the desire for passive martyrdom is even more so....

this is just my perception of your outlook, it is not a legally binding contract.


Are my posts viewed as being filled with hubris (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=hubris) ?
sometimes
Is my signature, intimidating ?
that question is an example of the sometimes
Are the challenges I present, above anyone's will to promote ?
what does that mean?
You mention "humility is difficult to achieve", my guess is that because I am bold and forthright in my inquiries,
that is perceived as a lack of humility. Right?If I may ask, (without drawing any comparisons between myself and any other person)
Did any, or all of the great Prophets who walked this earth since time began for mankind, lack humility?
No actually, i was not directing the humility thing at you, remember? ALL humans have issues with humility. In my opinion i think the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not lack humility, he was a servant of Allah. When some of the brothers on this board have signatures along the lines of "all good that i acheive is from allah and all bad is from my own lack of forsight etc..." i think they show what we mean by humility. People think they are better than others for a million reasons on this earth, for their money, for their glamour, for their power, for their humour and wit, for the way they do things, for the boldness in their actions and for the courage in their steps. Ultimately all these actions become meaningless. Pride pervades every part our lives. When a man compliments the way a woman looks they feel pride in their hearts, when really it has very little to do with them for most of the time.


Therefore, men can stand up, speak truths to the people and do so, without a lack of humility.
(without drawing any comparisons between myself and any other person)
what is your driving force stan? Is it an ultimate beief that your own opinions are greater than other peoples? Because that is not what the prophets thought. Their message was from God. You may disagree with that statement but that is just life. I believe their is a greater nature of things far more iimportant than what you think about things and how you woudl go about solving the worlds problems or indeed myself. If we made women the rulers of the world and gave love to all burglars you maythink this world would be teh most finest and dandiest place on earth. BUt thats what communists thought, they forgot one MAJOR problem: the nature of man. I believe that Islam takes into account this nature and then steps forward.


In all humility, I must ask once again, take a really good review of what transpires on this forum,
then ask yourself, is this a representation of ISLAM, or Muslims.
For that answer is one of the reasons for which I came to be among you.
I found this forum, due to a search for information, and a webpage popped up for this forum.
You mention "humility is difficult to achieve", therefore, look upon all the content on this forum,
and ask yourselves, how much humility is being given or received ?
I realize nobody likes to be challenged, especially regarding spiritual matters.
I truly believe, Islam as a whole body, will only achieve it's peace and sancuary through example.
Rather than leaders standing before world bodies and saying:
With words as my weapon of choice, and Truth as my shield, ....
Young "lions" are sent out and die, all for a cause which could be averted by utilizing WORDS.


although muslims unfortunately unavoidable will represent islam to the masses who wacth what the media says, the only true representation of islam is the Quran. just because human kind will never have humility ooze naturally from it's masses, that does not mean it is RIGHT.

i hope i have responede sufficeintly to your post. I am juist tryign to convey my understanding. I hope you do not have difficulty undertstanding it.

[Stanley Stunodd]

dear stan ........ The sonship of father thing is very christian from where i am standing.
the desire for passive martyrdom is even more so....
Thank you for taking the time to answer all those points.
I know on a forum , it's quicky answers with a few well chosen words. ( at best )


One entry found for martyrdom: 1 : the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith

I'm not quite sure I understand the difference between passive martyrdom and that being carried out daily by young boys in the Middle East.

Is "passive martyrdom " like when the guards yelled out "where is this man, Jesus?" and Jesus stood forward and said "I am the one you seek" ?

Because, rather than this particular incident being one of passive martyrdom ,
I would consider it more akin to the story of :
line 37 (http://www.ubook.org/cgi-bin/mfs/29/home/urantia/webdocs/upapers/ubpaper178.html?37#mfs): It is the believer's duty to render to Caesar the things which are Caesar's and to God the things which are God's.

[Stanley Stunodd]

PS, I noticed that I did not touch upon one other important topic within your post.
what is your driving force Stan?
Is it an ultimate belief that your own opinions are greater than other peoples?

No! on the contrary, I only brought fresh batteries for the light which seems to be going dim in todays world.