Distortion About Islam And the Holy War

[abdulhakeem]

The Independent (http://allafrica.com/publishers.html?passed_name=The%20Independent&passed_location=Banjul) (Banjul)
November 5, 2004
Muhammed Lamin Jaiteh

War is not an objective of Islam nor is it normal behaviour of Muslims. It is only the last resort and it is used under the most extraordinary circumstances when all other measures fail. This is the actual status of war in Islam.

Islam is the religion of peace: one of Gods names is peace the daily greetings of Muslims and angels are peace, paradise is the house of peace, the adjective 'Muslim' means peaceful. Peace is the nature, the meaning, the emblem and the objective of Islam. Every being is entitled to enjoy the peace of Islam and the kindness of peaceful Muslims; regardless of religions, geographical or racial consideration, so long as there is no aggression against Islam or the Muslims.

If non-Muslims are peaceful with the Muslims or even indifferent to Islam, there can be no ground or justification to declare war on them.

There is no such thing as religious war to force Islam on non-Muslims, because if Islam does not emerge from deep convictions from within, it is not acceptable to God nor can it help its professor. If there is any religion or constitution to guarantee peaceful freedom of religion and forbid compulsion in religion, it is Islam, and Islam alone.

The Quran says: let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the trustworthiest handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things (Quran 2:256).

Even in the propagation of Islam, a Muslim is not only forbidden to employ force but is also commanded to use the most peaceful methods.

To Muhammad (PBUH) God said: Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. For your Lord knows best who have strayed from his faith and who receive guidance (Quran 16:125).

And dispute you not with the people o the book (Jews and Christians) except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury).

But say: 'We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which come down to you, our God and your God is one, and it is to him we bow (In Islam). Quran 29:46.

Now, if Islam is so designated to peace, and if the Quran is favourable to peace, why then did Muhammad launch wars and command battles? Why does the Quran say slay them and fight them?

To seek some answers to this seemingly innocent inquiry, it is dispensable to mention some historical facts that accompanied and proceeded the Muslim wars against the infidels.

After receiving the charge from God, Muhammad called a public meeting and told the assembly of what he had received, appealing to them to give up their idol worship and believe in the one true God. His first peaceful and logical appeal was met not only with resistance but also with jeers, mockery and laughter. He tried continually to present his people with the blessed call but had little success. Because he was not left free to propagate Islam in the open, he had to resort to private preaching for some years to save the lives of his few followers and mitigate their hardship.

When instructions from God came to him to preach in the open, persecutions and torture increased and were brutally inflicted on the Muslims. But the more then persecutions increased, the higher the number of Muslims rose. The infidels tried all kinds of pressure and temptation to silence the call of God. But the more they tried, the former Muhammad and Muslims stood.

When the infidels failed o shake the faith of the believers by threats, pressure, confiscation of property, jeers etc. they organised a harsh boycott, a fierce campaign of ostracism, against the Muslim. For some years, the Muslims were forced to remain within a very tight circle of association, unable to preach, sell, buy, marry or contact any of their fellow Meccans.

Even this did not shake the Muslim faith. The boycott went on until the infidels themselves were tired of its observance and had to call it off.

Bringing the severe boycott to an end was no indication of peace or sign of inclination to peace on the part of the infidels. On the contrary, pressure and persecution continued though to no avail as regard daunting the Muslims or preventing Islam.

Finally, the infidels convened a summit conference behind close doors to discuss what to do next in order to eliminate Islam and get rid of Muhammad once and for all. An unanimous resolution was adopted to select a string man from every tribe and murder Muhammad in his bed. The mission of Muhammad was not destined to end at that level. So God instructed him to leave Mecca, his dear home town, and migrate to reunite with the native Muslims there and the earlier emigrants who had fled from Mecca to Medina (see Quran 8:30, 9:40).

This was the great event of the Hijrah or Emigration with which the history of Islam began and from which the Muslim calendar dates. Fleeing from Mecca, the Muslims were forced by variety of circumstances to leave behind practically all their properties, belonging and even families. As soon as they settled in Medina, Muhammad (PBUH) resumed his peaceful preaching and his gracious invitation to Islam. Some natives responded favourably to the call of God and immediately became full-fledged members of the Muslim community. Others did not embrace Islam but maintained their traditional beliefs. And because Muhammad was dedicated to dignified peace and reform, he concluded treaties with non-Muslims assuring them of freedom and security, and creating in their hearts, for the first time a socio-national conscience instead of narrow tribal allegiance. While Muhammad (PBUH) was engaged in these reforms, trying to organise the Muslims community at Medina and lay down the foundations of stable and peaceful society where in Muslims and non-Muslims could live side by side, the enemies at Mecca were restless. Their hatred of the Muslims was burning, and their determinations to eliminate Islam was getting stronger and stronger everyday. They reviewed their tactics and, as soon as they completed their new plans, they started to implement them. They decided to make trouble for the Muslims from within and from without. Plundering and fighting raids were organised to attack Medina and get back to Mecca with whatever loot they could lay their hands on.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200411050816.html

[AbuMubarak]

ISLAM IN A NUTSHELL

"Actions Shall be judged according to Intentions."
[Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, first Hadith in Sahih of Bukhari, narrated by 'Umar, r.a.]

The most important aspect of Islam is TAQWA which has been translated as:

God-consciousness or Awareness of God or Fear of Allah

A major purpose of fasting and prayer is to develop this awareness {taqwa}.

Islam creates this awareness through THREE stages of development:

1. Purity of Faith [Aqeeda]
2. Good Actions ['Amal]
3. Good motivation [niyyah]

The Muslim must have direct contact with God through prayers and supplications. No priesthood is needed.
The Muslim must be socially aware and SPEND of his/her wealth, time, intellect to help others and create a just and balanced community and society, hopefully leading on to a better world.

Why do we do what we do? Islam is very strong on this issue of MOTIVATION. We must learn to do good for the sake of acceptance by God, not for financial profit or ego. Hence GOOD DEEDS must be done without publicity.

SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT SELF-RESTRAINT. We must follow God's teachings in the way we live, the way we earn our living and even in the food we eat. INTOXICANTS and foods which harm the body are forbidden in the Qur'an.

When we eat, we must share.
-------------------------------------------
Editorial:
New Trend Urges All decent People to Speak out against the Crucifixion of Fallujah


FREEDOM, ISLAM, SELF-DETERMINATION Under U.S. ASSAULT in FALLUJAH
"ALLAHU AKBAR" Comes the Call from Mosques as 1500 Mujahids Face 15,000 U.S.'Best troops

November 8: In one of the most shameful episodes in Bush's occupation of Iraq, 15,000 U.S.
Marines and 4th Infantry Division, with units of Iraqi renegades, tried to punch their way into
Fallujah with massive artillery and air support. On Day 1, the Americans captured about 4 blocks
of Fallujah town starting with the hospital. There was an interesting reason for the capture of the
hospital: It used to report the stream of civilian casualties, mostly women and children, American air attacks have caused in Fallujah. Nearly 100,000 civilians are still in the doomed city.
America's own best traditions do not allow for the brutalization of a small town in Iraq. Iraqis
have no weaponry which would match America's vast arsenal. How can any decent American be
proud of this shameful spectacle of the massing of an American legion against lightly armed militias sustained only by their faith and improvised explosive devices.
Language itself under the tyranny of George W. Bush has lapsed into Orwellian double speak when Iraqis defending their homes, their city, their mosques against heavily armed barbarians from America are dubbed "insurgents, " while Muslims who have come in from other countries
to help their Iraqi family are labeled "terrorists" and "foreign fighters." In fact the only forces which are foreigners in Iraq are the Americans, the British and their European and Australian allies.
After all there are definitions of international behavior which the Bush Administration theoretically accepts. The U.S. has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS BEING IN IRAQ. It does
not have even the FIG LEAF of United Nations' support, its own creature which initiated "Israel."
Even the loyal Kofi Annan does not see U.S. military adventure in Iraq as legitimate.
FALLUJAH UNDER ISLAM is an excellent example of democracy. The people rose up and took Fallujah and drove out the American occupation forces. It's a peoples' city, organized street by street under peoples' rule, fighting for its independence and self-determination. The tragedy
which the U.S. is imposing on the valiant people of Fallujah is no less than what Israel did in Jenin and Hafez Assad in Hamah.
Bush and Blair must be the only two people in the world who believe that Allawi is the leader of Iraq! and is "permitting" them to attack Fallujah. Independent observers agree that Allawi is the **** of the earth, a
dirty agent of the CIA who was so verminous that Saddam kicked him out of his secret service: Allawi then begged the CIA to use his service.
Ya Allah! What filthy curs Bush, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz have honored as "leaders" of
Iraq": Traitors who come dime a dozen are presented as the "Iraqi government." George W. should not forget that more than 47 million Americans voted against him. He certainly does not have a mandate from Americans to continue his dastardly crimes in Iraq.
New Trend urges all decent people, in particular the Muslims of America and the Muslims of
the world, to condemn in the clearest terms this assault by the American juggernaut on Fallujah.
The 1500 mujahideen in Fallujah are fighting back against 15,000 American elite troops.
These Iraqis seem determined to free themselves of American tyranny whatever the cost. There can be
no doubt, as the Adhan ["Allah Akbar," "Allahu Akbar,"] lilts across the eerie battlefield, even as
U.S. heavy artillery lashes out and the U.S. air force drops 500 pound bombs, that Iraq will be finally victorious and Iraq will be, finally, Islamic.
-----------------------------------

FALLUJAH During RAMADAN 1425
[A poem by Ale Yasir]

O Muslims of America! Like you, we fast during the Day.
At Night we Watch your Shaitan's F-16s Light up the Horizons.
Our Mosques are packed with Young People
Their beards are still green
They want to live, to die, for Allah, for Iraq under Islam.
We hear the Adhan: It is Peaceful, Reminding us of Paradise

We say to the Americans: Go back to your families.
This is not your land. Take Allawi with you.

Don't we have the right to Fast, to Pray in Peace?
Do you, sons of Bush, know nothing sacred?
You bomb homes, hospitals, schools.
You desecrate mosques, burn the Qur'an, shred the Hadith of the blessed Messenger.

Are you not Afraid that the Cries of the Oppressed will Rise up to Heaven?
You break into our homes and "body search" our Maidens who fast and pray!
Have you no Shame? Have you no God?

You had to bomb us in Ramadan? You had to drown out our Adhan with Artillery?

You will never win.
Listen! we are Muslims, the followers of Muhammad (p).
You will never win.
Listen! we have the Qur'an.
You will never win.
Listen! we love Paradise.
The Houris are Waiting for us. Shame and Hellfire is waiting for you.

You will never win. We are the people of Fallujah!
We pray and fast in this blessed Ramadan.

Your big guns speak, your rockets smash our homes.
Yet we pray and fast and WE FIGHT BACK.
Ramadan 1425: The month in which the tyrants drowned decency in blood.
----------------------------------
LOCAL NEWS: New Trend report
White Supremacy/Islamophobia in Action

68 Year Old Egyptian Woman, Mrs. Afaf Saudi, Diabetic, Disabled, Handcuffed for "resisting arrest."

Greensboro, North Carolina: November 6. Sami Helmi's mother, Afaf, is 68 years old. Today she went shopping at Walmart and forgot her purse at the checkout counter. When she decided to buy a gift, she remembered her purse was at the counter. The Walmart lady at the counter handed back her purse. When she opened it, she found that instead of $170, only $20 were in it and $150 were missing.
She complained to the Walmart employee and then to the manager [her English is not good]. They both laughed at her and joked together about her. She was in her Islamic dress, all wrapped her except her face. She kept asking for her money back.
She wouldn't leave, and told them to call the police. The police officer, however, joined the Walmart employees in laughing at her. The police told her to leave. She said she wanted her money back. The police then ARRESTED HER for TRESPASSING on Walmart property!
As she is disabled, the police had to take her away in a wheel chair. The Walmart employees helped the police to tie her to the wheel chair. Then the police put HANDCUFFS on the 68 year old and booked her for RESISTING ARREST.
From the wheel chair, she was taken out and fell down because her feet were tied. Then she was stuffed by force into the police car.
On the way, her diaberic condition started affecting her and she pleaded for water. She felt faint and begged them to take her to hospital, which they finally did. The hospital people were shocked to see her handcuffed and her arms were bleeding. She was examined by the doctor who found that her shoulder was broken and her rib damaged when she was stuffed into the police car.
The police have given her three tickets, trespassing, resisting arrest and attacking police [because her shoes slid off when she was in the chair and touched the police].
Till November 8, she was still in hospital.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For protests by human rights activists, read this press release.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Immediate Release, Nov 8, 2004
For more information call Scott Trent, 336-558-8066

or Badi Ali, 336-988-0818

The October 22nd Coalition to Stop Police Brutality and the Islamic Center of the Triad stand together in strongly condemning the vicious attack on Mrs. Afaf Saudi on Saturday, November 6th, 2004. There is no possible justification for the brute force that was used in the arrest of Mrs. Saudi that resulted in her multiple injuries, including a fractured arm and bruised ribs.

Mrs. Saudi, who is sixty-eight years old and in very poor physical health, was reportedly hog-tied and tossed like an animal into a police cruiser after having been violently detained by a Greensboro police officer at the Wal-Mart on Battleground Ave. We know that there is no possible justification for this type of treatment by the police. We are also aware that police brutality and killings have increased dramatically in recent years, and that since September 11th, 2001 a vicious new form of racial profiling has been put into effect against Arab, Muslim, and South Asian immigrants. We will not stand idly by as this epidemic of police brutality and expanded racial profiling spirals violently out of control.

The October 22nd Coalition and the Islamic Center of the Triad stand together in firm solidarity, and call on the entire community to speak out in condemnation of this brutal attack on Mrs. Saudi. We require at the very minimum an apology to Mrs. Saudi in Arabic or French (the two languages she speaks), and a clear statement on how the officers involved will be disciplined.

[Stanley Stunodd]

If non-Muslims are peaceful with the Muslims or even indifferent to Islam, there can be no ground or justification to declare war on them.

And dispute you not with the people o the book (Jews and Christians) except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury).


ISLAM IN A NUTSHELL

"Actions Shall be judged according to Intentions."
[Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, first Hadith in Sahih of Bukhari, narrated by 'Umar, r.a.]



http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/ter0328.jpg

http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/ter3017.jpg

http://inhonor.net/pictures/112802_kenya_paradise/images/19kenya_israel_terror_suicide_attack.jpg

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavat/protest/pimages/arabterror.jpg

http://www.iaca.it/mideast_israel_palestinians2.jpg

Why is it that the words above do not match the deeds in pictures below them?

[AbuMubarak]

stan

do you see "non-muslims are peaceful with the muslims" in those pictures?

[Stanley Stunodd]

stan

do you see "non-muslims are peaceful with the muslims" in those pictures?
I understand we live in a tit for tat world, and that violence begets violence.
I also understand that if anyone takes the words written in each of the Religions text,
they are useful for guidance in life but, it seems that most USE the cover of religion
as their reason for fighting yet, they are not following the words or lessons of their particular religion.
I have never found much fault in the texts of religions but, in the actions of those who align themselves with a religious cause and in the process, bring dishonor to it.

This comes from all sides, throughout all generations.

[AbuMubarak]

so what is the solution stan? not prostelize the religion or to adhere to secularism, as if that is a panacea for the worlds ills?

[Stanley Stunodd]

so what is the solution stan? not prostelize the religion or to adhere to secularism, as if that is a panacea for the worlds ills?

http://www.suck.uk.com/photos/3Guns01.jpg

Why not turn all swords into plow shears?




Actually, all I can recommend is that people follow the lessons of peaceful co-existence that their religious texts describe. It isn't the fault of Religion but, in those who purport to be followers of that religion which deviate from the teachings expressed and promote their own interpretation of the ugly side they desire to foment.



I believe that if the Palestinians have a beef with the Israeli's,
they should voice this opposition in peaceful ways and vice-versa.
I do not believe bringing in the cause of a religion does any one of them any good as it simply destroys their standing in the worlds eyes.
Throughout history, people of each faith have gone to war with each other,
while flying the banner of their respective religion.
If there truly is a GOD, I can't understand any reason why this GOD would wish
for his creations to make war against each other in his/her name.

[ponderingstar]

Dear Stan,

i think you are well intentioned yet very naive. (and somethign about your collection of posts has got me REALLY riled)

people who live in the comfort of the west, with wealth, health loving families etc. cannot TRULY sit on thier arm chairs and judge how people who have their homes, mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, wives and husbands , their way of life, their access to opportunity and freedom taken away from them SHOULD act. No matter how we try we cannot even begin to imagine what that is like. For all my liberal thoughts and ideals of peace i'm pretty sure i could KILL if someone broke into my home and tried to kill my mother/husband/brothers. NOt to say i would be right. (in fact i'd probably end up in jail with some big momma beating the c**p out of me for being a prissy little thing)

we can TRY and think how these matters would best be handled, but in the case of the oppressors and the oppressed we can't sit and judge. facts are far more complicated than any side can see and unfortunately WAR is in the nature of man. (some may say it is not and it is the shaytan, but ultimately it is man that is so willing to hear the cry for justice or for greed. please note that the nature of war for Islam can only EVER be for justice)

If the Isrealis or the Palestinians for one moment thought that this should be a war of winning hearts and minds things may start looking up. Please do not come on a Muslim forum and suggest that the best thing would be if we could find some MLK in our midst to lead our people to a brighter future. It is patronising and as i mentioned before naive. Especially when you consider the situation in America during the time of MLK. There was injustice, but ultimately the time was ripe. If white america where not ready for civil rights it would not have been. And most muslims in this world subscribe to the words of Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali during that time. (they were not muslims but their philosophy) And many muslims, including myself see the injustices towards black americans to this day and wonder how the privilidged white classes in all their protected splendour DARE pass judgments of a racial nature upon the struggling classes when it was their forefathers that instigated the cycle. (and by forefathers i don't mean centuries ago i mean grandaddy and sometimes even daddy)

I believe in propogating peace, but there are far too many people in powerful positions who are willing to oppress in this world for me to ever believe in pacifism. It is a Christian mindset that cherises the pacisfist but then it has been a world dominated and many times oppressed by so called christians for the last few centuries.

your links are a snapshot of mankind, not of islam. by suggesting it is Muslims who somehow CRAVE violence, or cherish it, you do not see the bigger picture AND youl lend yourself to bigotry. if you would like i can send you a list of topics in the last century which COULD lead some to believe that somehow it was in the NATURE of white people to hurt, manipulate and oppress, but that would not be true and i would like to inflict your seemingly easily influenced mind to such a thought.

okay.

rant over now.:up:

[Stanley Stunodd]

Dear Stan,

i think you are well intentioned yet very naive.
(and somethign about your collection of posts has got me REALLY riled)
okay.

rant over now.:up:

I appologize if my "collection of posts" has gotten you riled ! :1peace:


I am only expressing my thought's on the thread topics in question.
It's only natural that my expressed thought's reflect how I perceive the world around me.
.
As for the troubles in Israel & Palestine,
historically, Jews lived on those same lands alongside the Arab/Muslims and even though
the BRITISH made possible the state of Israel, Palestinians who seek to remove Israel
through violent means does nobody any good.
If all the violence simply stopped,
commerce and employment would then be offered to the Palestinian people by Israel,
since they would have no fear of allowing them in their midst.
Wouldn't this be more beneficial to the palestinian people than a continual struggle and death?
Maybe with the passing of Yasser Arafat,
the Palestinian people will move beyond this notion of armed struggle
and begin a new century of cooperation between the two peoples?

[ponderingstar]

I am only expressing my thought's on the thread topics in question.



It's only natural that my expressed thought's reflect how I perceive the world around me.
.
As for the troubles in Israel & Palestine,
historically, Jews lived on those same lands alongside the Arab/Muslims and even though
the BRITISH made possible the state of Israel, Palestinians who seek to remove Israel
through violent means does nobody any good.
If all the violence simply stopped,
commerce and employment would then be offered to the Palestinian people by Israel,
since they would have no fear of allowing them in their midst.
Wouldn't this be more beneficial to the palestinian people than a continual struggle and death?
Maybe with the passing of Yasser Arafat,
the Palestinian people will move beyond this notion of armed struggle
and begin a new century of cooperation between the two peoples?

i realise that this would all be good and groovy but:
1. if it's all good and groovy to just have one big israeli state then surely that indicates the british were indeed pesky to remove what was one big palestinian state in which jews, muslims and christians resided in peacefully. (I know there is a NEED for a jewish state but the means do not justify that need)
2. I doubt very much that this proposed multi-cultural israeli state would be welcomed by most of the current Israeli citizenry since most projected population reports suggest that the palestnian population will be outnumbering the Israeli population within the next few decades. (again, this would not solve the problem of there being a need for a Jewsih state.)
3. the proposed scheme would not account for the fact that palestinian homes and land were simple stripped from them by the british arrogant/evil empire. (they were arrogant because they thought they were better than everyone else and evil because they so systematically employed a divide and conquer strategy.) What can possibly be proposed to redress this balance?
4. the concept of Israeli fear is very real but i get the feeling that you think the Palestinians do not live in fear? i think to assume that the complete demolitian of a nation and the identity of it's people may seem light hearted to you. The rights of the people of the "occupied territories" have been suspended. i realise it is an impossible situation. that is why grand gestures of "oh but wouldn't it be nice if..." are silly and naive.
5. the palestinian people do not want commerce and employment. I mean they do, but primarily they want their homes back, their land back, their standard of living returned and justice brought to the people who have oppressed them.
Oh and hold on, they want people to stop building israeli settlements on what is not considered israeli land. You can TALK of peace but this is an act of aggression EQUAL to the terrorist bombers. DO you think if the everyday palestinian had a choice between blowing themselves up or building an army protected "palestinian settlement" on Israeli land they would instinctively choose suicide? If you do, again i say you lend yourslef to bigotry. Infact a settlement had FAR longer lasting effects since the settlement can't be removed or dismantled and continues to grow.
6. finally i must remind you that many many Israelis beleive it is thier GOD GIVEN right to have ALL of the occupied land. Now as you know it's quite useless to argue with religious convictions. HOw do you propose to convince these people it is not morally sound to displace people when they do not care about human morals but only what they consider to be LAW from God?

This is where it becomes IMPOSSIBLE. muslims are not in their nature to accept terms which do not strike them as fair adn just. Many people who lost their homes in what is now Israel still live and breath in the occupied territories and wonder what their crime was.

SO all your notions of "wouldn't it be nice if..." are blind to the harsh realities of the situation. It's a little like two men holding weapons behind their back who DO NOT TRUST one another, both requesting that the other drop their weapon FIRST.

NOw isreal can (and do) claim that their weapon (settlements, building a wall over disputed land) is not a weapon at all, but i think if you have even half an open mind you can see the which weapon has FAR more power yet screams far more innocence.

I do not doubt that the israelis need a secure homeland and that many arabs believe this in itself is a crime, however i get the feeling you have a somewhat askewed visioned of what i consider to be BOTH sides of the argument.

as for you expressing your feelings, ofcourse you have a right to do so and i encourage it. But i also have the right to express my indignation and offense;)
especially when i consider you teetering of some dodgy edge between reason and assumption.

By the way, do you have to use the central align tool? it is most annoying to read your posts when they look like poetry but lack any structure that would make them so.

[Stanley Stunodd]

6. finally i must remind you that many many Israelis beleive it is thier GOD GIVEN right to have ALL of the occupied land. Now as you know it's quite useless to argue with religious convictions. HOw do you propose to convince these people it is not morally sound to displace people when they do not care about human morals but only what they consider to be LAW from God?

By the way, do you have to use the central align tool? it is most annoying to read your posts when they look like poetry but lack any structure that would make them so.
use the central align tool?
Sorry!

Re: "believe it is thier GOD GIVEN right to have ALL of the occupied land."

Is there not an equal cry from both sides on this point ?
Heck, I have heard the cry for the entire planet to become ONE ISLAMIC STATE.
Is that a fair and just solution?
I'll ask you, do you believe that all Muslims would cease attempting to convert the rest of the world to come under the laws of this sharia, if the entire Middle East were to become ONE ISLAMIC STATE?
Would all Muslims "go back home" in order to enjoy this lifestyle and leave the rest of the world alone?
I'm not saying Muslims wouldn't be welcomed to remain in all the countries of their birth, as long as they lived under the rules of those nations but, like whats happening around the world such as in france with the wearing of Islamic apparel in the schools or even down in Florida where Muslim women are protesting that they have the right to have their faces covered on their drivers licenses.
I mean, that one really flabbergasted me when I heard it !
A drivers license is used to identify a person, how would one be identified if their picture was only of their eyes?

Please don't view me as a bigot as I am not !
I am only seeking to understand the thought process that seems to permeate through Islamic culture.

[ponderingstar]

PLease note that i said MANY and not ALL. As for the CRY being equal. The Palestinians do not consider their rights to come from GOD. They consider their rights to be that they used to live in a place that seemed kinda okay and then the brits came along and screwed things up rather majorly. And what are the Brits going to do about it in hindsight? Erm.. nothing really we'll just talk about how very important it is to have peace in the middle east and twiddle our thumbs when people ask 'how did it all come to this?'. Also, in regards to ONE islamic state please refer to the original post on this thread. The "cry" you have heard may very well be from the fanatical fringe. Just as MANY right winged Christians in America feel the need to attack all muslims for being somehow inherently evil. Also you bring up many topics which are deterring from our original points. I will indulge myself and assume that this is because i have addressed your assumptions in a most worthy manner. wot wot!:D

why are fireworks still going off outside?!!

anyway. I would never "go back home" to the middle east since i am 1. British and 2. of pakistani heritage. The ONLY reason i would flee to Pakistan would be if there was a race war whch made it dangerous for me to stay. I would then feel displaced and heartbroken.

As for what you state, quite dramatically, "to be happening around the world" i think you have to look at each situation in itself. The deal of the driving licenses, i think it's just plain silly for anyone to make such a fuss and would like to know where you heard a bout such a thing? women are not compelled to cover their faces in Islam. Also if this story is true i can assure you it is one in a million if not less.

THe state of France is a different matter. FREEDOM of religion when it is not harming anyone else should be practised in all so called democratic countires. I think one of the staples of democracy is to protect the rights of minority groups. the islamic "apparel" as you call it, is not an outfit but part of a way of life. It does not threaten anyone and MANY girls in Britain wear the garments to school and live normal lives. To ban the garments not only shows bigotry and ignorance but encourages these qualities in the society as a whole towards women who do wear such clothing. The french did not BAN crosses in schools but requested that they be made smaller. When Christians do not even consider it mandatory to wear a cross unlike large numbers of muslim women who think it is mandatory for them to wear a headscarf.

I have heard that one of the reasons that this rule was made was under some blind assumption that women who wear headscarves want to kill everyone who isn't muslim! What on eartH?!! We are not creating stepford-wife-like clones here, they are human beings!

besides there is no muslim country in the world, in my opinion, that can hold its hand up and claim to be a perfect Islamic state.

As for a thought process that you consider to be permeating through Islamic culture. Where do you live? How many muslims do you know?





Sorry!
Re: "believe it is thier GOD GIVEN right to have ALL of the occupied land."

Is there not an equal cry from both sides on this point ?
Heck, I have heard the cry for the entire planet to become ONE ISLAMIC STATE.
Is that a fair and just solution?
I'll ask you, do you believe that all Muslims would cease attempting to convert the rest of the world to come under the laws of this sharia, if the entire Middle East were to become ONE ISLAMIC STATE?
Would all Muslims "go back home" in order to enjoy this lifestyle and leave the rest of the world alone?
I'm not saying Muslims wouldn't be welcomed to remain in all the countries of their birth, as long as they lived under the rules of those nations but, like whats happening around the world such as in france with the wearing of Islamic apparel in the schools or even down in Florida where Muslim women are protesting that they have the right to have their faces covered on their drivers licenses.
I mean, that one really flabbergasted me when I heard it !
A drivers license is used to identify a person, how would one be identified if their picture was only of their eyes?

Please don't view me as a bigot as I am not !

I am only seeking to understand the thought process that seems to permeate through Islamic culture.

[abdulhakeem]

Professor clears up some Islamic misconceptions

Tue, Nov 9, 2004
By Alex Shaine
For the Marshfield News-Herald

STEVENS POINT - While coalition forces laid siege to insurgents holed up in the Iraqi city of Fallujah on Monday, a University of Wisconsin Stevens Point professor clarified some misconceptions about jihad, a term often associated with terrorism.

Speaking to a lecture hall filled with students and local residents, UWSP professor of history Howard Eissenstat dispelled the notion that jihad explicitly refers to a holy war against infidels. Rather, he said, the Islamic term refers broadly to "a struggle" - be it spiritual, moral or political.

Though jihad has taken on myriad meanings in the modern era, it has become associated with nationalist struggles during the 20th century, Eissenstat said. He cited Hezbollah as one example of a nationalist organization that uses the concept of jihad to justify violence against its enemies, namely Israel.

Al-Qaida, he said, is not as widely accepted in the Islamic world.

"You might compare (al-Qaida) quite fairly to the Michigan Militia and Timothy McVeigh," Eissenstat said. "They claim to represent Christianity, but they don't do so accurately."
Eissenstat likened the Quran's usage of militaristic imagery to passages from the Old Testament, which sometimes include calls to violence. Neither text, he said, accurately reflects the nature of its religion.

"If you look at the Old Testament, there are all sorts of things we think of as contextual ... You'll often see people reading (religious) texts for positive things and negative things to support their thinking," Eissenstat said.

The comparison between Islamic and Judeo-Christian texts resonated among many of the students in attendance at the lecture. UWSP freshman Kathryn Stankivitz said she was surprised to learn that the two religions, which have clashed over the centuries, share some doctrinal similarities.

Linnea Weeden, also a freshman at UWSP, said the lecture contributed to her understanding of Islam.

"Since 9/11 our eyes have been opened to a new culture," Weeden said. "I'm learning what (Islam) is all about, not just the violence of it."

UWSP vice chancellor Bob Tomlinson said Eissenstat's lecture is a continuation of an ongoing dialogue that began in the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks.

http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/wdhlocal/288291163194793.shtml

[Stanley Stunodd]

The Palestinians do not consider their rights to come from GOD. They consider their rights to be that they used to live in a place that seemed kinda okay and then the brits came along and screwed things up rather majorly.


Also, in regards to ONE islamic state please refer to the original post on this thread. The "cry" you have heard may very well be from the fanatical fringe. Just as MANY right winged Christians in America feel the need to attack all muslims for being somehow inherently evil.
I would never "go back home" to the middle east since i am 1. British and 2. of pakistani heritage. The ONLY reason i would flee to Pakistan would be if there was a race war whch made it dangerous for me to stay. I would then feel displaced and heartbroken.
As for what you state, quite dramatically, "to be happening around the world" i think you have to look at each situation in itself.
THe state of France is a different matter. When Christians do not even consider it mandatory to wear a cross unlike large numbers of muslim women who think it is mandatory for them to wear a headscarf.
As for a thought process that you consider to be permeating through Islamic culture.
Where do you live?
How many muslims do you know?

As for the first point, I would suggest that a document be drawn up, which declares the Balfour decree, null & void and have each and every Palestinian sign this petition to the United Nations (which permitted the Balfour decree to become valid, without the agreement of the Palestinains). I would then request all Arab neighbors to sign on as co-sponsors to this document prior to presenting it before the Security Council.The shear weight of this document would move mountains ! Included in this document should be language that all past hostilities will be forgiven by both sides and a new beginning should become the normal daily interaction between Israeli's & Palestinains. That a New Government should be formulated with an equal sharing of responsibilities and duties for the benefit of ALL the citizens. RELIGIOUS LAW should not be implimented in this governing body but, individuals should be able to practice their religion as a personal duty and obligation to themselves and their community.
Point number two, while it true that each side has within them a radical fringe, bent upon forcing their beliefs upon the other, any Islamic state surely would require that SHARIA be instituted as the law of the land.
Point number three, the point I was attempting to make with regards to this question was one of the implication that an Islamic State seems preferable to Muslims over that which they see as EVIL abound in societies in the western nations. It is for this reason I implied that perhaps Muslims might wish to travel to an Islamic Nation/State rather than remaining in a despoiled and polluted society.
Point number four, while the headlines tend to scream about the wars and fahtwa's being waged around the world, I am aware that these occurances are only a fraction of the Muslim population. Perhaps the majority of Muslims need to voice their opinions louder than these occurances so that the good and peaceful message of Islam drowns out these shouts for violence and destruction of innocents?
Point number five, I agree that it is purely prejudice that has reared it's ugly head, both in France and around the world as a whole regarding these attitudes which we are speaking about. To be completely fair, France should require that priests and nun's remove their religious attire when entering any facility run by the government as well.
Point number six, "thought process, permeating through Islamic culture", this comment was only in relation to understanding the desires in the Muslim community to bring about social changes that are in line with Islamic traditions, in countries that are NOT Islamic.
Where do you live? ~, The United States of America
How many muslims do you know? ~ Personally, none. However, I have worked alongside many muslims as well as had interaction with many throughout daily life and have NEVER had any problems with even ONE muslim. I harbor no animosity toward muslims nor toward Islam as a religion. Any dispute I might have is with those who attempt to force their chosen lifestyle upon me or who regard my existance as something which they have the right to destroy based upon their religious convictions.

I hope you find my answers satisfactory and have a better idea regarding my thoughts and beliefs, as well as my reasons for posting on this forum.

[ponderingstar]

Perhaps the majority of Muslims need to voice their opinions louder than these occurances so that the good and peaceful message of Islam drowns out these shouts for violence and destruction of innocents?
thank you for your feedback it is much appreciated. There is a mixed bag on what we SHOULD do on regards to this. I do not go actively to promote myself as a sane member of society as i feel there is a small part of me that resents this. I mean, sure i'll talk to people about it if it comes up but to actually go out of my way to form a movement.... i don't know it just seems somewhat odd to have to defend myself in such a manner, althoughi do agree something needs to be done. (it just is annoying that the fanatical fringe are somehow considered 'one of me' which is not how i see it...)

[Stanley Stunodd]

thank you for your feedback it is much appreciated.
(it just is annoying that the fanatical fringe are somehow considered 'one of me' which is not how i see it...)
That's exactly how I feel when I hear these radicals say that they would kill me in a heart beat, for the sole reason that I happen to be born an American.
Just because some in our government and others in business commit crimes against Islam, shouldn't sentence ME to death !
I wonder how many people in those twin towers actually sympathized with the plight of the Muslims? And yet, they were killed without cause, simply to strike back against a perceived enemy (which by the way, didn't get hurt).

I think one of the perceptions or misconceptions in America stems from a sense that 'good muslims' are akin to COPS protecting their own, even if they are bad cops. Sort of the brotherhood thing.

[Ehsanparham]

I just thought it was important to mention you are not allowed to force people into Islam. As you mentioned, Jews lived in Muslim land for ages even after an invasion. Yes, they had to pay a tax, but that's just the price of living on someone else's property.

As for the war in Palestine, it's about Muslims. The holy mosque and the holy land has to be protected. Now, you have to either look at it from the religious side, or the non-religious side:

1) *Religious* It doesn't say anywhere in the Jewish religion that they should re-build their temple or whatever it is. But that's what they want. The holy land belongs to both actually because we are both descendants of Abraham/Ibrahim, which is why both religions claim the land.

2) *Non religious* Invasions are wrong, so Israel shouldn't be there at all. There is no claim to the land if you disregard religion, which means Israel just came and invaded the land.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to decide which route you're taking: either way,it's the Israelis that are imposing themselves.

Your solution is to live in piece, but who gets the holy land? Do you propose that Jews, who hate Muslims, are allowed near one of our most sacred possesions? That's not the way things work, see: Non-Muslims not allowed near Ka'aba.

[Stanley Stunodd]

but who gets the holy land?
First, what make land HOLY?
Secondly, I have never been able to understand this presumption of one owning land. Land is owned by the Creator only, I don't believe God ever granted a deed to anyone with regards to the land.
One may occupy and utilize the land but, one can never truly OWN the land.