Essential Jewish Wisdom

[History]

Hillel says,
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me?
But if I am only for myself, who am I?
If not now, when?"
--Pirke Avot (Ethics of the Fathers), 1:14
c. 100 BCE

Respectfully,
History

[swan]

Reliance on Allah

"If Allah is your helper none can overcome you and if He does not help you, who is there to help you? The reliant rely only on Allah." (3:160)
"...He who relies on Allah, Allah is enough for him..." (65:3)

[History]

Dear swan,
Thank you for sharing. I not many looked but you are the first to add to this dialogue.

I have one key question which I hope you will share your thoughts:

Do you find these two lessons (Rabbi Hillel's and the Quranic ones) complimentary or contradictory?

Respectfully,
History

[History]

Correction:
Dear swan,
Thank you for sharing. I note many looked but you are the first to add to this dialogue.

I have one key question which I hope you will share your thoughts:

Do you find these two lessons (Rabbi Hillel's and the Quranic ones) complimentary or contradictory?

Respectfully,
History

[swan]

History,

your always making me think! lol.

could you give me a little more information on Rabbi Hillel? and Pirke Avot?

i guess i am not really sure if the Quranic quote i stated is contradictory to the above quote? its just that Hillels quote seems to suggest that we can only depend on ourselves? (and the last line, the "If not now, when" part kinda throws me off.)

I thought it appropriate to post the Reliance on Allah quotes from the Quran as we should always rely on Allah, especially in the most difficult of times. to have faith in Allahs plan.

however, we still must depend on ourselves to stand up for what is right and forbid the wrong.


gosh, throw me a line here History..

[History]

Dear swan,
Thank you for your post.

The Pirke Avot "Ethics/Sayings of the Fathers" is my favorite "book" in the Talmud, the Rabbinic Commentary on the Torah, respectively the Oral Law and the Written Law, the two central works of Judaism.

The Pirke Avot us a collection of the most memorable sayings of our ancient Sages spanning a few hundred years before and after the beginning of the Common Era (per the Christian World, " AD"). The sayings are arranged chronologically and tell of the transmission and the safeguarding of G-d's Word from Moses down the millenia and what further wisdom the Sages gleaned from G-d's Word. For example, the first Chapter begins with:

1. Moses received the Torah from Sinai and gave it over to Joshua. Joshua gave it over to the Elders, the Elders to the Prophets, and the Prophets gave it over to the Men of the Great Assembly. They [the Men of the Great Assembly] would always say these three things: Be cautious in judgement. Establish many pupils. And make a safety fence around the Torah.

2. Shimon the Righteous was among the last surviving members of the Great assembly. He would say: The world stands on three things: Torah, the service of G-d, and deeds of kindness.
--Pirke Avot, I:1-2

As with most Hebrew Teachings, the commentary on these verses is far more extensive than the verses themselves. For example here is a small part of a commentary on I:14 (see lead post):

Every person is a singular entity. In all of history and Creation there will never be two people exactly alike, with exactly the same mission. (This) mishnah is directed toward each of us in our unique roles: "If I am not for myself, who will be for me?" No one but I can achieve my purpose in life; no one but I can fulfill my particular part in the Divine Plan.

On the other hand, man cannot be an island unto himself (or herself). A Jew's connection to his fellow Jews (and non-Jews) individually and to the nation (and world) at large is the catalyast through which he (she) can actualize his (her) own potential. [N]"And if I am only for myself, what am I?"[/B] Alone I will never become what I could be.

Time (is fleeting); every moment is special, every moment has a special task for which it is uniquely suited; every moment is a now that has never existed before and will never exist again, because tomorrow and the next day have their own opportunities and challenges. One must be sensitive (and fully attentive) to the call of the particular hour. "And if not now, when?" If I do not seize the opportunity now and imbue the moment with its particular meaning, the opportunity may not be there when I am ready.
--Pirke Avois Treasury, The Sages Guide to Living, Chiddushei HaRim, ArtScroll/Mesorah Press, p. 44.

What may aid your understanding is understanding this from the Jewish perspective that G-d has created us (humanity) for a Purpose. We are "partners" with G-d in achieving His Will in Creation. The Jewish mystics described this as tikkun olam: working toward the Perfection/Repair of the world under G-d.

From the Jewish perspective (and I believe Muslim and Christian as well), "submitting" to G-d is not to be done passively or with mere words or belief statement. Stating "I accept Jesus" or "There is none but All-h and Mohammed is His Prophet" alone is, as we say, bubkus >smile< if it is not accompanied by action, specifically working toward the world's redemption through living ethically as G-d/All-h desires of us.

We must do it for ourselves; we must do it for others; we must do it now, in every moment.

Respectfully,
History

[orange]

do jews believe that Prophet muhammad (saw) was a prophet?

because he told us about the day of judgement and about the punishments in the grave.

the jews believe that too. don't they?

[History]

Dear orange,
Thank you for your post.

do jews believe that Prophet muhammad (saw) was a prophet?

Jews believe the Age of Prophecy ended after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the rebuilding and dedication of the Temple in Jerusalem. This occured ~1200 years before Mohammed was born.

However, Jews respect the important role Jesus and Mohammed have had, with their respective Christian and Muslim followers, in bringing billions of people to acknowledge the One G-d/All-h.

because he told us about the day of judgement and about the punishments in the grave. the jews believe that too. don't they?

There are prophecies regarding the End-Times and some writings concerning the grave, death, afterlife in Torah and Talmud. But they are of relatively minor importance, imho, in Judaism compared to the more prominent role they play in Christianity and Islam.

Judaism is concerned primarily with G-d's greatest gifts of Life and Torah (His Teachings for ethical human behavior).

Although we long for the coming of the Messiah and the universal Peace and Joy of the Messianic Age, we do not do so in neglect of fully appreciating and enjoying this Life and in fullfilling G-d's Purpose for us: helping to repair/perfect the world under G-d (in Hebrew, "tikkun olam")

Respectfully,
History

[swan]

Originally posted by History


What may aid your understanding is understanding this from the Jewish perspective that G-d has created us (humanity) for a Purpose. We are "partners" with G-d in achieving His Will in Creation. The Jewish mystics described this as tikkun olam: working toward the Perfection/Repair of the world under G-d.



hmmm... ok History this part i have trouble with. (i realize you have quoted partners here) but i am still unclear on exactly what the Jewish perspective is? in Judaism, you dont believe that we were created so G-d/Allah could be known to us and so that we could worship him? muslims do not believe Allah has any "partners" and we do not believe Allah needs our help in any way rather we need and rely upon him. we are here to work good deeds and to establish Allahs laws. He doesnt need our help. this is a test for mankind.

forgive me, i mean you seem clear in your explanations, but i am still having trouble understanding what exactly the Jewish perspective on G-d/Allah is. i thought i knew, but i am learning that i dont. "shirk" which is associating partners with the Creator is a major sin in Islam. is it in Judaism as well?

[orange]

yeh but so many jews converted to islam,
i heard someone say that when he lectured about the punishments in the grave, a rabbi looked over in awe.
he accepted that muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet but did not accept that jesus(pbuh) was a prophet, because christians and jews beleive jesus died on the cross.
and jews beleive that whosoever dies on a tree is cursed.
so since jesus died on a cross, he was not really the messiah.
however Allah clarifies the truth in the Quran by saying that jesus was saved, and that another mans face was changed to jesus's face,
he was crucified not jesus.
Allah raised jesus up.

quran
4 :157- 159

"but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of jesus was put over another man"

thats why the man who was crucified, said "my lord why hast thou forsaken me?"

jesus wouldnt say that would he?

one of the wives of the Prophet muhammad was once a jew, but she became muslim and accepted him as a prophet.
due to him marrying her, the rest of her tribe became muslim.

but see the rabbi said that the children of israel disobeyed moses, how could they obey muhammad if they disobeyed moses? thats why the rabbi didnt become muslim. secondly the rabbi also had a high position within his community. i guess he loved that position alot.

[orange]

who is ezra?

[History]

Dear swan,
Thank you for your post.

? in Judaism, you dont believe that we were created so G-d/Allah could be known to us and so that we could worship him?

No, I don’t. This would imply a vanity in G-d, Blessed be His Name, which does not exist. G-d does not need our worship and praise (though we can’t help doing so because of all the wonderful gifts He provides us—foremost Life and His Teachings ). What He desires of us, I believe, for us to fully appreciate His Gifts and each other; to study and live by His Teachings, and teach them to our children; to improve ourselves individually and as a species both spiritually and ethically. He is provided us a world that is incomplete and imperfect, as we are ourselves, and our task under G-d is to work towards its perfections and, thereby, our own. In this, through His Guidance and Teachings, He partners with us.

He wants what is best for us. He needs nothing for Himself.

muslims do not believe Allah has any "partners" and we do not believe Allah needs our help in any way rather we need and rely upon him. we are here to work good deeds and to establish Allahs laws. He doesnt need our help.

I feel semantics is all that divides us here.
There is no god but G-d. He has no “partner” in Creation (no Satan, no Ahriman-Marduk, no polytheism).

Absolutely [I] “we are here to work good deeds and to establish Allahs laws”.
And this is what we partner ([U]work[U]) with G-d to do.

Being omnipotent, G-d could make it so we only perform good deeds and obey His Laws. We’d be akin to the angels then who have no free will but only act as G-d desires.

But G-d purposely gave us the gift of free will. We can do good deeds or evil ones. We can establish His Laws and live by them; or wage war against them. The decision has been given to us. We have no one but ourselves to blame for our poor choices, and we are given credit for those choices which are good.
As the freedom to choose is the foundation for this world’s relationship with the Almighty, He has given us the potential for greatness (spiritually and ethically)—but the rest is up to us!

Our “part” is to perform good deeds/acts of loving-kindness, live by His Laws for ethical human behavior, to become better human beings under G-d/All-h today than we were yesterday and better tomorrow than we are today. This is one definition, traditionally, of “What is a Jew?” and I believe it is also a definition of “What is a human being?” and “What is our purpose under G-d/All-h?”

this is a test for mankind.

Perhaps. But I see Life as more than a test. It is a Gift of G-d. And He expects us to appreciate and enjoy it fully. It just so happens (and I am not surprises) that this is best accomplished by performing “good works” and “living by His Laws.”

Respectfully,
History

[History]

Dear orange,
Thank you for your post.

You’ll need to provide me with your sources.
There have been Jewish and Christian converts to Islam and Islamic and Christian converts to Judaism. Jewish emphasis on deed over professed beliefs allows us to recognize Christians and Muslims as “Believers” and there is no need to proselytize.
Historically, neither Christianity nor Islam has been as accommodating in the countries they ruled; though there have been times of great tolerance and respect between Muslims and Jews, notably Andalusian Spain in the Middle Ages.

The rest of your post, I’m afraid, is unclear to me.
Jesus was not the Messiah because he did not do what the Messiah is promised to do.
Mohammed is not a Prophet, per the Jewish perspective, for the Age of Prophets ended 1200 years before his birth nor were all Mohammed’s teachings, per the Jewish perspective, in accordance with G-d’s known Word per Hebrew Scripture. But there is much that we share, and that is good and respected.

It is the tendency of people (including Muslims, wouldn’t you say?) to disobey at times. This is why G-d, in His mercy, has provided us the means for atonement, to repent and return to Hs Path of Righteous Behavior.

Respectfully,
History

P.S. Ezra was one of the last of the Hebrew Prophets, known as “the Scribe” who lived in the 5th century BCE and helped re-establish Jerusalem and the Holy Temple.

[orange]

see there is a miracle in islam, when prophet muhammad ascended the heavens and met moses the prophet and all the others.
moses spoke to him and stuff.

in islam, we beleiev jesus did do what he was sent to do, to call people to islam and Allah. to beleive in one God only an make lawful the things that the jews made unlawful, which was originaly lawful.
and he's gonna come back to establish the truth around the world.
and he's gonna kill the antichrist
the bani israel (children of israel) were originally muslim, until they broke their covenant, made unlawful what was lawful, and made lawful what was unlawful.
such as the eating of rabbits is lawful, but the jews made it unlawful
riba or interest was unlawful, but you guys made it lawful.
and then the jews killed the prophets for no reason whatsoever,
that earn't the wrath of Allah so they will never be given their promised land, i.e paradise.

so jesus peace be upon him was sent to call them back to the truth,
but the jews rejected him because they wanted to carry on about the way they were going. plus the scribes and pharisees had high positions of power which they wanted to keep.
if they obeyed allah, they knew they would no longer have those high positions of power from the romans.
so after so long to be freed from the romans and waiting for the messiah, they rejected the truth after it was revealed to them, and Allah says in the holy quran, we do not punish a nation before we have shown them truth.
so when they plotted against jesus , and rejected the truth, God punished the hypocrites.
by changing the face of another mans to the face of jesus.
and having him crucified whilst raising jesus up to the heavens.
and causing much confusion, that was their punishment for rejecting the truth.

jesus, pbuh, who performed miracles, with God's permission, and his birth was also a miracle, in which he had no father and was born from a virgin, then he has to be special.

and the torah, god says in the quran that the priests changed it, added bits in, took things out, made lawful what was unlawful, and made unlawful what was lawful. and moses even said, after my death the scriptures will be tampered with. they will make lies in it.

so thats why god sent jesus, to establish the truth, but the jews wanted to follow their desires.
so they wanted him killed just like they had killed other prophets.
but see they said that he did black magic, and wanted him killed on a tree to prove that he was cursed.
if god can create adam and eve without mothers or fathers, cant he create jesus without a father?
and jesus healed the lepers with Gods permision, surely if he was really a magician, he wouldnt be healing people with his arts.
and moses peace be upon him, when he threw the stick infront of the pharoah, and it turned into a snake, it was a miracle, but the pharoah said, that it was just black magic. your argumants are the same as the pharoahs, we know moses was really a prophet, and we also know that jesus was really a prophet, cause the argumants against him were the same as the argumants against moses.
u guys beleiev moses was a prophet why cant u believe that jesus was also a prophet?

the priests tampered with the scripture, so if they say prophethood ended 1200 years ago, they might've written that in there.


prophet muhammad was a prophet, performed some miracles, not to nthe extent of jesus. but muhammads lineage, character, behaviour, led caesar the roman emporer to even believe he was really a prophet. but caeser like the pharisees loved his high postion, if he became muslim, he would've feared his enemies trying to kill him.

and the quran in itself is a miracle. has never changed since it was revealed. because it was given to the people directly. the priests or the church didnt keep it, it was given directly, and God has also promised to preserve it. several museums that have some of the first copies of the quran have confirmed that the quran has stayed the same.

[orange]

anyway why wud muslims convert to judaism if israel is illegally killing palestinians and setting up illegal jewish settlements?
and besides since 9/1 there have been at least 14000 converts to islam in britain. the conversion rate to islam has increased.
i know of christians converting to judaism because their boy friends are jewish and they wanna get married.
but i have not met any1 who sincerely wants to become jewish.
i also have a friend who was jewish and converted to islam 30 years ago. her son is very very pious.

[History]

Dear orange,
Thank you for sharing your Muslim beliefs.
I respect them but do not share them.

In regard to the Quran, it is a fine book but it's claims against Hebrew Scripture are false and contrived, similar to the New Testament accusations of the Christians before it, to falsely elevate itself and it's reported version of G-d/All-h's Word as a replacement for all before; as the Bahai similarly (though less aggressively) does in its treatment/fulfillment of the Quran and the earlier Holy Scriptures.

For a Jew knowledgeable in Hebrew Scripture, G-d's Revelation to the world at Sinai 4000 years ago, the denigrating and dismissive and even derogatory accusations found in these later "holy" works fall flat, and their unloving and unjust and even inhumane depiction of the Jews as somehow diffeent from themselves further demonstrates the hand of man and not G-d--per the Jewish perspective.

Simply, we have found in the New Testament and the Quran many good things which are true--but what is true is not new (being in G-d's Word per Hebrew Scripture); and what is claimed as "new" is untrue (being contrary to G-d's Word in Hebrew Scripture).

I respect that we must agree to disagree here.

The tragic issue of the Arab/Palestinian-Israeli conflict would be best discussed in a different forum than "Peace and Calm"--but if we do engage in such dialogue, I expect we will have disagreements on many things, but I hope we can share a desire for a resolution to the conflict that permits both Palestinains and Israelis to live in peace in states of their own. I've always felt they have so much to gain from each other if the ideologues and militants on both sides would only let them.

In my place of worship alone, we have had many converts to Judaism these past few years. And, I humbly admit, I can't imagine why. But they are profoundly dedicated and very spiritual people who are eager to learn Hebrew, take part in prayers and are very active in the community tzedakah ("justice/charity") work we engage in. They are a delight, and I find their commitment to Hashem and His Teachings often greater than many of my fellows born into the faith. I learn much from their enthusiasm for Judaism, and see much anew and fresh in the Teachings I have studied all my life through their experience.

If you wish to learn more about those who have converted to Judaism and why, I could share this with you.

Shalom aleichem,
History

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Can I ask you about the origin of Judaism and what became of the Children of Israel, under the time of Prophet Moses, peace be upon him?

Did you know the Arab Jews used to take the Prophet Ezra as a 'son' of Allah, Glorified and Exalted be He?

[History]

Dear Xaxerian,
Thank you for your post.

The origin of Judaism begins with Abraham who was the first of us to recognize and follow the One G-d. How we are to follow the One G-d was codified by G-d in His Covenant with Moses and the Children of Israel (Abraham's descendents through his heirs: Isaac, Jacob, Joseph...).
This is recorded in Hebrew Scripture.

If you will permit me, Xaxerian (and forgive me if say anything offensive to you in stating my Jewish understanding, my friend)I've read in the Quran it's claim regarding the Jews purportedly believing that the Prophet Ezra was Jesus-like, i.e. a "son" of G-d; but there is nowhere in the extensive Jewish writings that support this Quranic claim and, as such a belief is and always has been anathema in Judaism, it is unlikely. More likely is that the great respect we Jews have for our prophets, including the prophet Ezra who reinvigorated the Jewish people and faith and preserved G-d's Word in Hebrew Scripture after the Babylonian Exile (5th century BCE) was misconstrued by Mohammed and his Muslims (perhaps even deliberately as a means to falsely denigrate Judaism--as Mohammed was puportedly angered by the Jews rejection of himself as a prophet and of his understanding of All-h's Word where it differed from the Hebrew Scripture the Prophet Ezra had made sure was preserved unchanged). In many ways the Prophet Ezra in Judaism and, for Muslims, the Prophet Mohammed were very alike in their accomplishments for their respective understandings of the Jewish and Muslim faiths.

2 great faiths, imho.

Respectfully,
History

[orange]

oh whatever!!!
many jews accepted islam and muhammad (pbuh), one of his wives was once jewish. so it proves that yes jews do beleieve quran is word of God.
and prophet muhaamad and jesus were descendants of abraham(pbuh)

and your preists changed the scripture, prophet moses (pbuh) even predicted that after his death the laws of God would be changed.
it is a well known fact that the gospels and scriptures were given to the priests before they were given to the people, so they were changed. and if you think that they weren't, then why, why after all this time, after following the scripture for thousands of years,and thinking that your fulfilling the covenant, why isn't God giving you guys what he promised? where's your promised land? the last messenger God sent to you guys was prophet muhammad (pbuh) thats your last chance. now theirs the Quran which has replaced any more prophets from coming, you ought to follow that,

and also the jews were called to worship one God, but when God told moses to go to the mountain for a certain number of days , his brother aaron said that the jews or bani israel at the time were worshipping a cow made of gold. so they associated partners to God, therefore they committed the biggest sin.

secondly, the Quran is the word of God, it has been protected since it was revealed, ask the historians in the university of istanbul, tey have a copy of one of the original qurans, and they have confirmed that the quran has not changed one bit. the Quran was revealed and given directly to the people and Prophet muhammad was illeterate , he couldn't read or write, a well known fact by historians, how could he have written the Quran?
if you go to this site you will see some of the amazing scientific things told by the Quran, embryology, oceanography, physics etc, how could an illeterate man, 1400 years ago, without any microscopes or computers know stuff like that? it was from God thats why. and it has been confirmed that the quran has stayed the same, so no-one else could've written it in.
www.islam-guide.com

Prophet ezra was muslim, not jewish.

when the jews finally earnt God's anger and broke their covenant, they took the scriptures and changed them to what they wanted.

God has sent prophet muhammad and jesus and ezra and prophet lut to bring you guys back to islam, back to the way of truth.
the scripture is a mixture of falsehood and truth, how can you continue to follow that?
part of the quran clarifies whats meant to be in the scriptures.
another part clarifying whats meant to be in the gospels, and another part clarifying whats in the psalms, and finally another part for the followers of muhammad.

this is your last chance, many jews have recognised that and have converted.
and you might say that people have converted to judaism, but our conversion rates are a hell of alot more higher. and in israel many people have converted to islam but your government aren't letting them register themselves down as muslims, i saw it on a bbc documantary several years ago.

and no prophet muhammad and jesus and the muslims did not make lies against judaism, the truth was revealed from God. God's tellin u guys that your following sheer misguidance. muslims did not make up the laws of the Quran, the laws are too much for an ordinary person to think about.
the reason why you guys don't accept prophet muhammad and jesus as your prophets is because they're trying to establish the truth again, but you guys didnt like it. they pointed out the wrongs and lies your preists were making. your preists didnt like it so in the scriptures they made up lies against jesus and his mother mary, and then said no other prophet would ever come because the times for the prophets to come had gone. then how could you guys be ever be guided back agian when you go astray? why would God stop trying to give you guidance? He wants you to follow him.

[Númenor]

dont they have a promise land? israel? If you look at the arabic versions of the Qur'an dating all the way back to Ali (r) time they will be identical verse by verse and if you look at the 13 liners which i love they will be exactly the same even by page. and most of these might i add are hand written by calligraphers and checked again and again Huffaz and Alims to make them errorless.

Unfortunately with the Bible,so many sects have developed and have their own rules etc... It has been corrupted. I was talking to a minister once who admitted that the Bible does infact have "ammendments" as time progresses due to the change of lifestyles and the times.

I ask you one thing, does the word of Allah SWT who knows everything past present and future ever need to be modified? If he knows everything surely he wouldve sent down a set of rules that would apply universally for all time.

And then let's look at Jesus' (saw) disciples, one of them betrayed him for gold, and who bribed him to turn in his "beloved" Prophet? The Jews. Now if his disciple was capable of treason like this whos to say the others wouldn't change around his [Jesus] words to fit their own thinking. Lets admit it Jesus (saw) ideas were not popular. And the only ones who had good knowledge were his disciples.

O and by the way in reply to the latter post, the Prophet (saw) did not wright down anything, he memorised every passage that was recited to him, and his followers did the same. It was not till Abu Bakr became Caliph that it was written down at the behest of his decree because the Huffaz and the Sahabi were dying in wars led by Khalid Ibn Walid (r) and of age...

[History]

Dear orange,
Your passion is commendable.
Your "reasoning" is not.
You use non-sequitors as your "proofs" which of course is oxymoronic.
You promote the tired "line" of Muslim anti-Judaism.
You seem more interested in "justifying" your beliefs and denigrating my own; repeating blindly what you have been taught because it is easier than thinking for yourself, even if what you espouse is based on convenient untruths--and you demonstrate you have no interest in challenging what you have been told is true--rather than learn, understand, and appreciate how we Jews know G-d, and His Word in Hebrew Scripture.

Islam is a great faith, but Muslims are no different than other human beings in their laziness in accepting what they are told is true rather than doing the work of learning and understanding what is true.

Respectfully,
History