PDA

View Full Version : Shocking: Ex-muslim Wafa Sultan Debates Sheikh Omar Bakri



faatima18
12-06-12, 11:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQwn4-jXNLs


has he gone crazy. since when was the general rule that the blood and property of non muslims is permissible.

Perseveranze
13-06-12, 12:04 AM
Pretty sure the blood of say women, children, monks etc. basically civilians isn't permissible.

Ibnul Qayim (Rahimahullaah) said:



"Killing is only obligatory when facing warfare and armed combat not when facing kufr. For this reason, neither women are to be killed nor children, or the elderly, nor the blind nor those worshippers who do not fight, rather we fight against those who fight us. This was the way of the Messenger of Allaah in dealing with the people of the earth, he used to fight those who fought against him until they either entered into the deen, make an agreement or treaty with him or came under his authority via paying the jizya. This is what he used to instruct his armies if they fought against their enemies, as has preceded from the Hadeeth of Buraydah". ("Ahkaam Al Udh-Dhimmah", Vol 1, Page 17).



Ibn Taymiyah said:



"As for those who are not from the people who help and fight, such as women, children, the worshipper, the elderly, the blind, the disabled and the likes then they are not to be killed according to the majority of the Ulama' unless the person participates in fighting (against the Muslims) with speech or action. Even though some Ulama' permitted the killing of all merely on account of kufr, except for women and children which become for the Moslims. The first opinion (that non-combatants are not to be killed or fought against at all) is the most correct opinion, because fighting is only against whoever fights us when we want to manifest the deen of Allaah, just as Allaah says: "Fight in the way of Allaah against thse who fight you and do not trangress the limits. Indeed, Allaah does not love those who trangress". (Qur'an 2:190). In the Sunan is a Hadith from the Prophet that he passed by a woman who had been killed within a battle and the people had gathered around the body. The Prophet said: "This is not one who should be fought against", and sent the men away saying to one of them: "Tell Khalid not to kill children or workers". Also reported from him is that he said: "Do not kill a frail elderly man or a young child or a woman". ("As Siyaasah Ash Shariyah", Page 177).

"The foundation is that the blood of Bani Aadam is sanctified and inviolable and no one is killed except with right. Killing due to kufr is not something which the legislations have agreed upon at any one time of the Shariah, such as killing the one who sits out of combat, for this is something that the legislations and intellect do not differ over. The blood of a disbeliever during the early history of Islaam was sanctified and inviolable just like the original sanctity of a person. Allaah prevented the Muslims from killing such a disbeliever". ("As Saarim Al Maslool 'Alaa Shaatim ir Rasool", Page 104).

"Killing a women merely on account of kufr is not permissible and we do not know that it was allowed to kill any disbelieving women at any time whatsoever. Rather, the Qur'an and the sequence of its revelation prove that it is not allowed at all, because the first verses revealed about fighting: "Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allaah is competent to give them victory. They are those who have been evicted from their homes without right". (Qur'an 22:39 and 49). So it was allowed for the believers to fight in defending themselves and to retaliate against those who evited them from their homes and prevented them from tawheed of Allaah and His worship, and women are not included from those who do this. Then it was prescribed for them to fight absolutely and this is explained in His saying: "Fight in the way of Allaah against those who fight you". (Qur'an 2:190). So those people who are nor people of combat are not permitted to be fought against". ("As Saarim Al Maslool", Page 101).


Just thought i'd make that part clear.

And I think the Sheikh is talking about offensive Jihad, which from my understanding is not obligatory. It's usually when the Muslim Ruler invites them to Islam, if they say no, they tell them to pay Jizya, if they say no again, then they have permission to fight.

Ibn Qudaamah said:



“Jihaad is an obligation upon the community; if some people undertake it, the rest are relieved of the obligation.”

What fard kafaayah means is that if it is not undertaken by enough people, then all the people are guilty of sin, but if enough people undertakes it, the rest will be relieved of blame. Initially the command is addressed to all of them, as in the case of an individual obligation (fard ‘ayn), but then in the case of fard kafaayah the obligation is dropped if enough of the people undertake to do it, unlike the case with fard ‘ayn where the obligation is not dropped if someone else does it. Jihad is a fard kafaayah, according to the majority of scholars.”

(al-Mughni, 9/163)



It does become obligatory in 4 cases though;

1 – When the Muslim is present in a jihad situation. (where fighting is already present, basically saying you shouldn't run away)
2 – When the enemy has come and attacked a Muslim land
3 – When the ruler mobilizes the people, they must respond. (like the Ameer/Caliphate)
4 – When a person is needed and no one else can do the task except him.

http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/20214/jihad

It's a deep subject which you can't really explain in a few sentences or in a "video chat". I think the sheikh could've been a bit more elaborative, but it's not like he could have the time to.

Allahu Allam.

TripolySunni
13-06-12, 12:16 AM
al-Salamu `Aleykum,

I'm Lebanese, and `Umar Bakri is in my city, the man is not qualified for debates, this is why mainly christians TV channels invite him, to make a mockery of him and Islam, Bakri is a poor naive man.

I just wanted you brothers to know that.

Arashim
13-06-12, 12:19 AM
Sheikh Omar Bakri? sure islamophobes network love him so much...why don't they debate some real Sheikh?

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/05/robert-spencer-to-debate-achmed-the-dead-terrorist-and-the-dictator/

-Shamil-
13-06-12, 12:34 AM
al-Salamu `Aleykum,

I'm Lebanese, and `Umar Bakri is in my city, the man is not qualified for debates, this is why mainly christians TV channels invite him, to make a mockery of him and Islam, Bakri is a poor naive man.

I just wanted you brothers to know that.

Agree - Ive never seen him come across well, inarticulate and unfortunately he became quite a laughing stock after that lebanon fiasco

Abu Dhahabi
13-06-12, 01:10 AM
his protege Anjum Choudary was owned by an Arab Christian recently.

Mikha’eel
13-06-12, 08:06 AM
In order to have been an ex-muslim, you actually had to have actually been a muslim to begin with. Wafa Sultan is an alawite, therefore was never a muslim.

Also, it seems they love inviting him or Anjem Choudary on tv, just so they can use em to prove how evil & violent Islam is and then praise them afterwards saying how these guys speak the truth and the rest of the scholars that say otherwise are doing taqqiyah which Islam intructs muslims to do with non muslims to deceive them in their jihad against them.

abubakarbristol
13-06-12, 09:01 AM
In order to have been an ex-muslim, you actually had to have actually been a muslim to begin with. Wafa Sultan is an alawite, therefore was never a muslim.

Also, it seems they love inviting him or Anjem Choudary on tv, just so they can use em to prove how evil & violent Islam is and then praise them afterwards saying how these guys speak the truth and the rest of the scholars that say otherwise are doing taqqiyah which Islam intructs muslims to do with non muslims to deceive them in their jihad against them.

Wafa has trouble with meanings of words as her statement "I even don't believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim", clearly shows.

Choudary is a self publicist, and he appears to have a warped grasp of Islam which is a combination that makes him a useful sap for any anti-Muslim going.

I can find NO evidence that he is a Sheikh.

deen1984
13-06-12, 09:30 AM
this is the type of nonsense you would expect to find on memri tv lol.

h-rahman
13-06-12, 12:07 PM
cherry picking her oponents as usual.wafa shaytan has been exposed to manny times,especially her stories which contain a lot of contradictions.

Muslim_man
13-06-12, 12:39 PM
Omar Bakri is well known to be a deciever and a liar. He was known to be a liar when he lived in the UK.

This is why he was the poster boy for Islam among the ignorant non-muslims. Just as Anjum Choudhury is today.

Among muslims, they have zero reputation, despite being in "dawah" for 20 plus years !

Normally even a semi-literate well intentioned muslim, even after a few months of dawah establishes a good reputation among muslims, but after 20 years, Omar Bakri established nothing ?? what does this tell you ?

Pure controlled opposition.
In this debate about Islam, their is a non-muslim versus a non-muslim (dressed as a muslim)
Are you surprised that Islam becomes the casualty ??

blackarmour
13-06-12, 01:17 PM
wafa shaytan

lool

noobz
13-06-12, 01:51 PM
how do u get the label sheikh?

a degree? .. appearing on tv? ...

sis_niqabi
13-06-12, 02:25 PM
They always put these ex Muslims in a debate with ignorant and extreme scholars. Because they want to make Islam look bad.

And I'm on minute 14 with wafaa sultan. That woman says the craziest things to just get her 15 minutes of fame.

truepath
13-06-12, 02:31 PM
how do u get the label sheikh?

a degree? .. appearing on tv? ...

lol, I was gonna ask the same Q on another thread.

By appearing on youtube vidoes. No wonder you spend too much time on youtube :D *outta*

noobz
13-06-12, 02:41 PM
lol, I was gonna ask the same Q on another thread.

By appearing on youtube vidoes. No wonder you spend too much time on youtube :D *outta*

how dare u ..


wheres my sheikh title?

Ariadne
13-06-12, 02:49 PM
Honestly, the nonmuslims who are islamphobe will never have a guts to invite the real sheikh who are qualified to explain the real islam. Why? Their intention is very clear to make Islam look bad. And they only want to play it one-side.

One word : Coward.

There are bunch of Wafa Satans in my country who admitted they are murtaadins, and they are highly exposed in Christian community. But when I came to one of a seminar where he became a speaker and debating a really qualified scholar, he freezed. His arguments are weak and very ridiculous, how he squandered the hadiths and aayats to support his argument. Fail fail fail!

Ariadne
13-06-12, 02:53 PM
Honestly, the nonmuslims who are islamphobe will never have a guts to invite the real sheikh who are qualified to explain the real islam. Why? Their intention is very clear to make Islam look bad. And they only want to play it one-side.

One word : COWARD.

There are bunch of Wafa Satans in my country who admitted they are murtaadins, and they are highly exposed in Christian community. But when I came to one of a seminar where one of them became a speaker and debating a really qualified scholar, he froze. His arguments are weak and very ridiculous, how he squandered the hadiths and aayats to support his argument. And in curriculum vitae he admitted he's a former scholar. LOL! What a lie!