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noobz
12-08-11, 09:55 AM
The malikis pray with their hands on their sides if im not mistaken ... and this was also the practice of the people of medina during Imam Malik(rah) time which was like 120 years after hijra ? ...... so like i dont get why there is so much difference in the style of praying ......

mozlem
12-08-11, 10:21 AM
It seems Imam Maalik used put his hands on the side due to a certain reason(not sunnah) And Allah(swt) knows best....... Check out this link bro,

Maalikis putting their hands by their sides when praying (http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/6109)

faisal.r
12-08-11, 10:49 AM
It seems Imam Maalik used put his hands on the side due to a certain reason(not sunnah) And Allah(swt) knows best....... Check out this link bro,

Maalikis putting their hands by their sides when praying (http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/6109)
I can't recall where I saw it, but I also read earlier in an another explanation that Imam Maalik [ra] was very much hurt and possibly that was the reason he held his hands at his sides. The above Islam QA link seems to corroborate that.

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 10:50 AM
The malikis pray with their hands on their sides if im not mistaken ... and this was also the practice of the people of medina during Imam Malik(rah) time which was like 120 years after hijra ? ...... so like i dont get why there is so much difference in the style of praying ......

Where did you get that this was the practice of the people of Madinah? It certainly wasn't. Even the main Maliki opinion is to fold your arms on your chest while praying. The practice of praying with hands on the sides came about from when Imam Malik was badly beaten and couldn't fold his arms so he prayed with them by his side. It is a weak opinion in the Maliki madhab. Most Malikis that I know pray with their arms folded.

faisal.r
12-08-11, 10:54 AM
The real question is, hold hands below the navel or above the navel?

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 11:00 AM
The real question is, hold hands below the navel or above the navel?

Well, this issue came up in class a couple weeks ago, and the Shaykh who is a Maliki but really strong in comparative fiqh, said that Rasulullah was known to hold his hands at his chest except a couple times in his life it is reported that he folded his hands at the navel as the Hanafis do. So there is daleel for both sides. I myself was grew up praying with my hands at the navel, so I'll continue doing so since it is a valid opinion with valid daleel.

Peacenik
12-08-11, 11:05 AM
I thought it was shias that did this ?

faisal.r
12-08-11, 11:50 AM
Well, this issue came up in class a couple weeks ago, and the Shaykh who is a Maliki but really strong in comparative fiqh, said that Rasulullah was known to hold his hands at his chest except a couple times in his life it is reported that he folded his hands at the navel as the Hanafis do. So there is daleel for both sides. I myself was grew up praying with my hands at the navel, so I'll continue doing so since it is a valid opinion with valid daleel. My case is similar. I've been taught to hold hands at the navel, but recently I've become very conscious about my hand position for some reason. Now, I sometimes hold them just above the navel, sometimes at the navel, and sometimes just below. I just hope this won't be held against me when I'm judged. :nervous:

abooo
12-08-11, 11:57 AM
Well, this issue came up in class a couple weeks ago, and the Shaykh who is a Maliki but really strong in comparative fiqh, said that Rasulullah was known to hold his hands at his chest except a couple times in his life it is reported that he folded his hands at the navel as the Hanafis do. So there is daleel for both sides. I myself was grew up praying with my hands at the navel, so I'll continue doing so since it is a valid opinion with valid daleel.

Problem with those who continue to follow a madhab regardless of stronger opinion . Imam hanifah said if you find evidence which is different from what he does follow evidence.
The imams all based their fiqh and work around the availability of hadeeths. so if a hadith later was found to be stronger then you can still blind follow the imam..

IbnulQayyim
12-08-11, 12:11 PM
Where did you get that this was the practice of the people of Madinah? It certainly wasn't. Even the main Maliki opinion is to fold your arms on your chest while praying. The practice of praying with hands on the sides came about from when Imam Malik was badly beaten and couldn't fold his arms so he prayed with them by his side. It is a weak opinion in the Maliki madhab. Most Malikis that I know pray with their arms folded.

No, this opinion did not come from Imam Malik being beaten severely and thus put his arms on the side. Please ask Maliki 'Ulamaa about their own Fiqh. Did you get this from Bilal Philips in his Evolution of the Fiqh book?

Maliki view isn't on the chest if I am not work...wallahu a'lam. Would need to confirm.

Noobz - Maliki Madhhab allows putting arms on the side. If you are confused why so much differences then watch Mufti 'Abdur Rahman Ibn Yusuf and Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam's video on taqleed. They explain the difference part at some point in their lecture.

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 12:13 PM
My case is similar. I've been taught to hold hands at the navel, but recently I've become very conscious about my hand position for some reason. Now, I sometimes hold them just above the navel, sometimes at the navel, and sometimes just below. I just hope this won't be held against me when I'm judged. :nervous:

I think that folding the arms is not a rukn of prayer. But maybe someone else can cofirm that.

Just try to be consistent and don't let Shaytan play with your mind. I was listening to a speech once, and the person who gave the speech said that Allah will not condemn someone to Hell on a technicality. So InshaAllah try to be consistent and don't worry too much about it. But if someone can confirm that it is a rukn of prayer then you should be more careful.

IbnulQayyim
12-08-11, 12:14 PM
Problem with those who continue to follow a madhab regardless of stronger opinion . Imam hanifah said if you find evidence which is different from what he does follow evidence.
The imams all based their fiqh and work around the availability of hadeeths. so if a hadith later was found to be stronger then you can still blind follow the imam..

u dont know if abu hanifah knew the hadeeth that scholars that came after them knew.

and he dint say if u find sahih hadith leave my opinion, to any layman,
that statement was for the scholars.

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 12:16 PM
No, this opinion did not come from Imam Malik being beaten severely and thus put his arms on the side. Please ask Maliki 'Ulamaa about their own Fiqh. Did you get this from Bilal Philips in his Evolution of the Fiqh book?

Maliki view isn't on the chest if I am not work...wallahu a'lam. Would need to confirm.

Noobz - Maliki Madhhab allows putting arms on the side. If you are confused why so much differences then watch Mufti 'Abdur Rahman Ibn Yusuf and Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam's video on taqleed. They explain the difference part at some point in their lecture.

No, I got it from my Shaykh who is a Maliki from Ghana and studied in Madinah and Makkah. Although he did say that the story is weak. But basically, the point is that holding the arms by the sides is a weak opinion even amongst the Malikis, according to my Shaykh.

Brother Hassan
12-08-11, 01:18 PM
There are different hadith, some say the Prophet :saw: folded hands below navel & others say above navels. I personally think that all opinions are valid if based on Sahih Hadith. The difference could be because the Prophet :saw: could have prayed in different ways. Allah knows best :)

abooo
12-08-11, 02:14 PM
u dont know if abu hanifah knew the hadeeth that scholars that came after them knew.

and he dint say if u find sahih hadith leave my opinion, to any layman,
that statement was for the scholars.

Yes it is for the scholars i know...and those after wards have commented that hands over the chest is stronger opinion

Kas1m
12-08-11, 02:22 PM
This jamaican guy at taraweehs put his hands down whenever he wants suiting his own leisure. Sometimes he would put them proper and most of the times down lol maybe that's some other firqa.

islam4u
12-08-11, 02:57 PM
The malikis pray with their hands on their sides if im not mistaken ... and this was also the practice of the people of medina during Imam Malik(rah) time which was like 120 years after hijra ? ...... so like i dont get why there is so much difference in the style of praying ......

I think we should start a confused Brothers club, can I join?

But yeh there are so many different ways of praying, just don't stick to the salafi way which force you to pray one way or take the highway. You know they even have posters on the wall showing how to pray. If your toe is 1 cm out of alignment they will probably say your salaat is null and void lol

alGhurabaa77
12-08-11, 03:30 PM
I think we should start a confused Brothers club, can I join?

But yeh there are so many different ways of praying, just don't stick to the salafi way which force you to pray on. Ittaqu way or take the highway. You know they even have posters on the wall showing how to pray. If your toe is 1 cm out of alignment they will probably say your salaat is null and void lol

Stop inciting hatred against a group of Muslims; at least in Ramadan have some self restraint. Ittaqil laah. And for your information there are numerous ahadeeth on making the rows straight & how much importance the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi wasallam gave to straightening them.

I was bought up on hanafi fiqh & they taught us to have hands just above belly button. I advise to study fiqh of salaah , better if its comparitive fiqh, with a Shaykh who doesnt just blindly follow the crowds. That would be the ideal thing in order to perfect salaah as much as possible & also to avoid doubts.

To the O.P. this is the way of ahlul bid'ah & i dont know if any other groups implement this. However the correct view without getting into technicalities is right hand over left. Allaahu a'lam.

alGhurabaa77
12-08-11, 03:38 PM
u dont know if abu hanifah knew the hadeeth that scholars that came after them knew.

and he dint say if u find sahih hadith leave my opinion, to any layman,
that statement was for the scholars.

Bro thats a weak excuse. In any case if thats the reason people want to hide behind then all your scholars who encourage & teach to pray without raful yadain must be wrong then. Raful yadain is an established sunnah but you dont see majority of scholars of the hanafi madhab implementing it & the laymen blindly follow.

IbnulQayyim
12-08-11, 04:09 PM
Bro thats a weak excuse. In any case if thats the reason people want to hide behind then all your scholars who encourage & teach to pray without raful yadain must be wrong then. Raful yadain is an established sunnah but you dont see majority of scholars of the hanafi madhab implementing it & the laymen blindly follow.

ppl need to understand ijtihad then.

Soliloquy
12-08-11, 04:15 PM
Problem with those who continue to follow a madhab regardless of stronger opinion . Imam hanifah said if you find evidence which is different from what he does follow evidence.
The imams all based their fiqh and work around the availability of hadeeths. so if a hadith later was found to be stronger then you can still blind follow the imam..

And people need to get over this saying; it doesn't apply to the laymen.

Btw, there have been many additions to the Hanafi madhab (and all the other madhabs) by mujtahids over the years (refer to the examples of the direct students of Imam Abu Hanifa), a madhab isn't the work of only just the Imam whom it was named after.

islam4u
12-08-11, 05:03 PM
Stop inciting hatred against a group of Muslims; at least in Ramadan have some self restraint. Ittaqil laah. And for your information there are numerous ahadeeth on making the rows straight & how much importance the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi wasallam gave to straightening them.

I was bought up on hanafi fiqh & they taught us to have hands just above belly button. I advise to study fiqh of salaah , better if its comparitive fiqh, with a Shaykh who doesnt just blindly follow the crowds. That would be the ideal thing in order to perfect salaah as much as possible & also to avoid doubts.

To the O.P. this is the way of ahlul bid'ah & i dont know if any other groups implement this. However the correct view without getting into technicalities is right hand over left. Allaahu a'lam.

Fiqh of Salaat, okay to which madhab? You should appreciate the other ways that people pray.

Peacenik
12-08-11, 06:03 PM
Well, this issue came up in class a couple weeks ago, and the Shaykh who is a Maliki but really strong in comparative fiqh, said that Rasulullah was known to hold his hands at his chest except a couple times in his life it is reported that he folded his hands at the navel as the Hanafis do. So there is daleel for both sides. I myself was grew up praying with my hands at the navel, so I'll continue doing so since it is a valid opinion with valid daleel.


Problem with those who continue to follow a madhab regardless of stronger opinion . Imam hanifah said if you find evidence which is different from what he does follow evidence.
The imams all based their fiqh and work around the availability of hadeeths. so if a hadith later was found to be stronger then you can still blind follow the imam..

Are you saying that not all Hadiths were 'discovered' at the time of the 4 Imams (ra) ?

Excuse_me
12-08-11, 06:44 PM
Asalamu Alaikum,

I really dont understand why some people who follow the Maliki Madhab(not all the people) do this. Is it because of ignorance?

Is there any proof from the Quran or Sunnah that it is allowed to pray with your hands down? I've personally yet to find any.

This is when it gets dangerous with regards to blindly following a madhab. People for some reason just ignore his situation and start adding to stuff to the salat. The general rule in ibadah is that everything is impermissible unless there is proof for it.

Wallahu Aalim

Excuse_me
12-08-11, 06:48 PM
Are you saying that not all Hadiths were 'discovered' at the time of the 4 Imams (ra) ?

Asalamu Alaikum,

It isn't that they weren't discovered it is that some hadiths never reached them because they lived in different areas. Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah(rahimullah) has a book on this issue called "Raful-Malaam anil-A'immatil-A'laam (Removing the Harms from the Noble Imams." He outlines some of the reasons why the Imams differed and why there might be stronger of opinions in different madhabs.

alGhurabaa77
12-08-11, 06:50 PM
ppl need to understand ijtihad then. go ahead & explain it then akhee.

Peacenik
12-08-11, 06:50 PM
Asalamu Alaikum,

It isn't that they weren't discovered it is that some hadiths never reached them because they lived in different areas. Sheikh Ibn Taymiyyah(rahimullah) has a book on this issue called "Raful-Malaam anil-A'immatil-A'laam (Removing the Harms from the Noble Imams." He outlines some of the reasons why the Imams differed and why there might be stronger of opinions in different madhabs.

:wswrwb:

Ah, I see.

JZK for that; I guess you learn something new everyday :)

alGhurabaa77
12-08-11, 06:52 PM
Fiqh of Salaat, okay to which madhab? You should appreciate the other ways that people pray.
Im glad too see you have realised the error of your ways.
Madhab? Whats madhab? Follow Quran & Sunnah & dont just blindly follow to the extent you only accept whats in specific madhabs. InshaaAllaah you'll be fine akhee.

Peacenik
12-08-11, 06:53 PM
Im glad too see you have realised the error of your ways.
Madhab? Whats madhab? Follow Quran & Sunnah & dont just blindly follow. InshaaAllaah you'll be fine akhee.

The laymen (like me and you) need a Madhab to make it easier for us. Why wouldn't you follow those in knowledge ?

Excuse_me
12-08-11, 06:55 PM
Im glad too see you have realised the error of your ways.
Madhab? Whats madhab? Follow Quran & Sunnah & dont just blindly follow. InshaaAllaah you'll be fine akhee.


The laymen (like me and you) need a Madhab to make it easier for us. Why wouldn't you follow those in knowledge ?

This. Nothing wrong with following your teachers madhab if you're a laymen. But once you do find a stronger opinion(from the scholars/teacher/people of knowledge) then accept it.

alGhurabaa77
12-08-11, 06:57 PM
The laymen (like me and you) need a Madhab to make it easier for us. Why wouldn't you follow those in knowledge ?
I know plenty of Muslims who dont folow 1. Their fine. Its easy enough for them.
The question is, as i have raised questions over before, why do people follow madhab to the extreme that they reject proven sunnàhs just cos they dont fall in line with their madhab. Why? Thats the million dollar question.

Excuse_me took the words out my mouth. No5hing wrong with following just dont become a sheep following everything blindly whilst rejecting other authentic sunnahs.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:00 PM
it was the practice of the people of madinah during the time of imam malik and he considered the actions of the people of madinah to be constituting the sunnah to a level of mutawattir. ibn taymiyah wrote a treatise on it called "the soundness of the principles of the madhhab of the people of madinah"

any other reason you have been given is bogus

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:02 PM
I know plenty of Muslims who dont folow 1. Their fine. Its easy enough for them.
The question is, as i have raised questions over before, why do people follow madhab to the extreme that they reject proven sunnàhs just cos they dont fall in line with their madhab. Why? Thats the million dollar question.

Excuse_me took the words out my mouth. No5hing wrong with following just dont become a sheep following everything blindly whilst rejecting other authentic sunnahs.

and how do you know 100% for sure what you are doing is "authentic sunnah"? unless you are hafith (to the classical term, not the current hafiz ul quran narrowing of the term), are versed in all the sciences of the language, etc etc then you have to rely on someone else.

i choose to follow the scholarship of the shafi`i madhhab

belal1
12-08-11, 07:05 PM
as salamu alaikum,

this is a topic of sadl (arms freely on the side) vs qabd (clasped). i tried to research this issue a while back and kept going in circles no matter how much I tried to find which is right. at the end, I realized i am just a laymen (and probably a step below that to some degree) and that's why it's hard to truly appreciate the issue of amal vs hadith. it's probably better to just follow your madhab until you reach a status of a scholar before deciding "this is incorrect". and if you never really reach that status, then at the end of the day, you'll know that you stuck to your madhab and you're still following the sunnah. especially if you are following hanafi because we all know hanafi is the strictest and most correct madhab.

anyway, the link to the amal vs hadith (sadl vs qabd) issue is better explained here: http://www.muwatta.com/ebooks/english/sadl_al-yadayn_yasin_dutton.pdf


as salamu alaikum

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:06 PM
Where did you get that this was the practice of the people of Madinah? It certainly wasn't. Even the main Maliki opinion is to fold your arms on your chest while praying. The practice of praying with hands on the sides came about from when Imam Malik was badly beaten and couldn't fold his arms so he prayed with them by his side. It is a weak opinion in the Maliki madhab. Most Malikis that I know pray with their arms folded.

see my post above but it is not a weak opinion. it is the majority opinion of the maliki madhhab.

http://www.thisisbasil.us/pdfs/fiqh/maliki/qabd_and_sadl.pdf

even yet, folding the arms is not even a pillar of the salat. your salat will be perfectly valid according to all the 4 established madhhabs with your arms to your sides.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:09 PM
at the end of the day, the malikis have their ijtihad. fuqaha more knowledgeable than everyone on this site combined followed that opinion and it is not something worth bickering about. i have prayed behind malikis who pray like that and will continue to do so if the situation arises

Excuse_me
12-08-11, 07:10 PM
Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:

Nothing to the contrary has been narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and this is the view of the majority of the Sahaabah and Taabi’een. This is what was mentioned by Maalik in al-Muwatta’, and Ibn al-Mundhir and others did not narrate any differing view from Maalik… (See al-Fath, 2/224; Nayl al-Awtaar, 2/201)

The Maalikis said, concerning the report about holding one hand with the other in fard and naafil prayers, that this is the more correct meaning, because people were commanded to do this during the earliest generations (See al-Qawaaneen, 65).

What is well-known from the later books of the Maalikis is that it is recommended for the worshipper to place the hands below the chest and above the navel, in both naafil and fard prayers. If a person does this with the intention of following the Sunnah, or with no specific intention,this is fine, but if his intention is to lean on his hands or find a more comfortable position by putting one hand on top of the other, then this is makrooh.

Al-Baaji, one of the prominent Maalikis, said: “It may be that Maalik said that placing one hand on top of the other is makrooh because he was afraid that the common people would believe that this was one of the esential pillars of the prayer and that prayer would be invalid if one did not do this.”

Anyone who thinks about this matter will realize for certain that they all acknowledge that the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is for the worshipper to place his hands on his front, not to hold them by his sides. Whatever Imaam Maalik said about holding the hands by one's side – if indeed the reports from him are saheeh – was only to counteract an action that was not prescribed in the Sunnah, which was leaning on the hands, or an incorrect belief, i.e., the belief of the common people that this was obligatory. It was said that when Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) refused to accept the position of qaadi (judge), he was beaten, and he could not put his hands on his chest when praying, so he held them by his sides because of the pain. Some of those who saw that thought this was Sunnah so they transmitted this from him. But he (may Allaah have mercy on him) definitely did not say that the arms should be held by one’s side at all. This is a misunderstanding of some written statement and it goes against what he stated clearly in al-Muwatta’ about the right hand being placed on top of the left. This was explained by a group of Maalikis and others, in various books which number approximately thirty, apart from what is mentioned in various commentaries.

Moreover, if it were proven that Maalik did hold his arms by his side for no reason, which is more deserving of being followed, the actions and words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as mentioned in the ahaadeeth quoted above, or the words of Imaam Maalik?

Every seeker of the truth will follow the Sunnah of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and give it priority over the views of anyone else.

And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/6109/praying%20arms%20down


This fatwa kind of explains why Imam Malik(rahimullah)(if what is said of him is true) might have told people it is makruh to put your hands on your chest. Though the bold part explains it the best. We dont just follow the people of Madinah. We have authentic hadiths that The Prophet(pbuh) folded his arms so we should do that instead.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:12 PM
This fatwa kind of explains why Imam Malik(rahimullah)(if what is said of him is true) might have told people it is makruh to put your hands on your chest. Though the bold part explains it the best. We dont just follow the people of Madinah. We have authentic hadiths that The Prophet(pbuh) folded his arms so we should do that instead.

to put it kindly, that fatwa is misguided. if malik couldnt fold his hands due to being beaten, then how come he was able to do takbeerat al ihram? simply put, it was the practice of the people of madinah. full stop. any other reason is batil speculation.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:14 PM
http://www.seekingilm.com/archives/185


Ibn Taymiyya on the Maliki Madhhab

Some excerpts from his book, “The soundness of the principles of the madhhab of the people of Madina “:

“Praised be Allah (SWT), the madhhab of the people of City of the Prophet – the place of the Sunnah, the place of migration (hijrah) and the place of helping (nasrah), and where the Prophet established the sunnahs of Islam and its laws and where the muhajirs came and hailed Allah (SWT) and His Prophet and from it were the Ansar who populated the city earlier and their hearts with eman – verily their (the people of Madina’s) madhhab in the era of the Sahabah and the Tabi’een and their Tabi’een is the soundest of madhhabs of all the Islamic cities east and west, in the fundamentals and branches of religion. And verily these three eras are the eras of the three esteemed generations, regarding whom the Prophet (s) said in the sahih hadith ‘The best of generations are my generation, then those who follow them, then those who follow them.’”

“..and from the generations that the Prophet (s) indicated to, the madhhab of the people of Madina was the soundest madhhab of the all the lands, for verily they used to establish [Islamic law] from the direct influences (athaar) of the Prophet (s)…”

“And those people who have reported from Abu Hanifa, or one of his companions, that the Ijma’ of the people of Kufa is incumbent to follow (hujjah) for all muslims, then verily he has mistakenly attributed this to Abu Hanifa and his companions. But as for the people of Madina, verily people have talked about the ijma’ of its populace, and it is well-known that to Malik and his companions the ijma’ of it’s (Madina’s) people is incumbent, even if the rest of the imams (from other places) dispute with them in it…”

“..this is why none of the Muslim scholars believed that the ijma’ of any of the cities except Madina was a proof which must be followed – not in those times nor after them.”

“..as for the three esteemed generations, in Madina there was no bid’a. And no bid’a in the fundamentals of religion emerged from Madina, whereas it did in the rest of the world. The five major localities that the companions (r) of the Prophet (s) populated include: the two Harams (Makka and Madina), the two Iraqs (Basra and Kufa), and Syria. And from these places emerged the Quran, hadith, fiqh, worship and other things that are followed in the matters of Islam. And from all these localities bid’as emerged in the fundamentals of religion – except for the Madina of the Prophet”.

“The people of Madina were the soundest of the people of the cities in both transmission and opinion. Their hadith is the soundest of hadiths. The people of knowledge of hadith agree that the soundest of hadiths are the hadiths of the people of Madina and then the hadiths of the people of Basra.”

“Now the action of the people of Madina was either a sunnah from the Messenger of Allah (SWT) (s) himself or they referred to the judgements of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab. It is said that Malik took the bulk of the Muwatta’ from Rabi’a, and Rabi’a from Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab, and Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab from ‘Umar, and ‘Umar related it. Of ‘Umar’s weight, Tirmidhi has related that the Messenger of Allah (SWT) (s) said, ‘If I had not been sent to you, then ‘Umar would have been sent to you.’”

“The Deen of Islam is that the sword follows the Book. When knowledge of the Book and Sunnah has the upper hand, and the sword follows that, then the business of Islam is established. The people of Madina are the most entitled of the cities to the like of that. As for the time of the Rightly-guided Caliphs, the business was like that. After them, some of them had more of it than others. When knowledge of the Book is insufficient and the sword sometimes agrees with the Book and sometimes opposes it, then where is the deen in that? Whoever is guided to these matters and their like, it is clear to him that the basis of the people of Madina is incomparably sounder than the basis of any of the people of the earth.”

Excuse_me
12-08-11, 07:25 PM
to put it kindly, that fatwa is misguided. if malik couldnt fold his hands due to being beaten, then how come he was able to do takbeerat al ihram? simply put, it was the practice of the people of madinah. full stop. any other reason is batil speculation.

Ibn Abd Al Barr(rahimullah) was a well known Maliki Scholar(300-400 AH) and from that fatwa they quote him stating that this wasnt the practice of the Tabieen or Sahabah.

Wallahu Aalim

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 07:28 PM
see my post above but it is not a weak opinion. it is the majority opinion of the maliki madhhab.

http://www.thisisbasil.us/pdfs/fiqh/maliki/qabd_and_sadl.pdf

even yet, folding the arms is not even a pillar of the salat. your salat will be perfectly valid according to all the 4 established madhhabs with your arms to your sides.

:jkk: I did some more research and found articles which agree with what you say here written by scholars whom I know and trust. I'll post those articles here shortly, InshaAllah. I think my Shaykh was probably talking about the strongest opinion overall, although he is a Maliki himself albeit with a strong Hanbali/Salafi influence. But I will ask him about this again, since maybe I misunderstood. He is usually very strong in comparative fiqh.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:31 PM
Ibn Abd Al Barr(rahimullah) was a well known Maliki Scholar(300-400 AH) and from that fatwa they quote him stating that this wasnt the practice of the Tabieen or Sahabah.

Wallahu Aalim

im not familiar with tarjih in the maliki madhhab. but id stop to think how much opinion is given precidence to that of malik within the madhhab and what the opinion of the other fuqaha have said about it.

Abu 'Abdullaah
12-08-11, 07:33 PM
It's a well known position in the Maliki madhab. There may be a difference of opinion amongst the scholars within the madhab but unless you follow or study the Maliki school, there's no point in trying to debate it.

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 07:34 PM
This is an article addressing the issue to some extent, written by Imam Suhaib Webb on his blog. He studied initially with local scholars in the USA, and then in Al Azhar for many years. He is a Maliki. The comments section of this article was also very helpful.

http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-studies/why-do-the-malikis-pray-with-their-hands-to-the-sides-part-one/

Why Do the Malikis Pray With Their Hands to The Sides?

Asalamu alaykum,

Undoubtedly a lot of us [Malikis] have been confronted with this question many times. Such question are important and, if answered correctly, can foster a greater sense of tolerance, love and appreciation for one another. However, some like to insist that there is “no dalil” for this practice and even claim that Imam Malik was beaten and prayed like that due to his injuries. Others hold that since Imam Malik related in his collection of hadith the hadith which mentions praying with one’s hands on the chest and that this is enough to nullify the schools position.

This article is not, by any means, the final word on this matter, nor is it meant to create the latest debate in our Islamic centers. The goal of this article is to provide enough proof for those who want to practice what is known as al-Sadl to do so based on proofs and fare arguments.

Contention Number One: There is no evidence from the Sunna for this practice

This, in and of itself, is a problematic statement that only shows one’s immaturity in grasping the essence of Islamic Law. However, when one says such things we should assume the best and know that it is only a sign of his sincere love and connection with the Messenger of Allah [sa]. That being said, this is not the place, nor will time permit for it to be elaborated on. Thus, let’s move right along to the proofs:

The First Proof: The Hadith “Go back and pray for, indeed, you have not prayed!”

It is related from Abu Hurayra,

“The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, entered the mosque and a man entered and prayed. He greeted the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, who returned the greeting and said, ‘Go and back and pray. You have not prayed.’ He went back and prayed as he had prayed before. Then he came and greeted the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,who said three times, ‘Go back and pray for you have not prayed.’ He said, ‘By the One who sent you with the truth, I cannot do any better than that, so teach me.’ He said, ‘When you stand for the prayer, say the takbir and then recite something you know well from the Qur’an and then do ruku’ until you are at rest in your ruku’ . Then stand back up until you are completely upright. Then go into sajda until you are at rest in your sajda. Then sit back until you are at rest in the sitting position. Do that throughout all of your prayer.’ ”

Related by al-Bukhari hadith(s) 715,751, 5782, 6174. Muslim hadith 602.

Understanding the Proof:

The Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] taught this man how to pray and did not tell the man to place his hands on his chest. Thus, according to the Malki school, this is a proof for placing one’s hands on the sides. [see Ibn Batal's explanation of Sahih al-Bukhari]

Imam al-Nawawi responded to this by stating that this hadith only illustrates the obligatory acts of prayer and not the sunnas. This is answered by the narration of al-Hakim, which is considered sound, in which the Prophet [may Allah be pleased with him] not only mentions the pillars of prayer, but also mentions how to make wudu and the sunnas of prayer as well. After that the Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] said, “None of your prayers will be complete until he does it like this [how the Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] described it]. al-Mustadrak ‘ala al-Sahihayn of al-Hakim #847.

In this narration, the Prophet [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] after mentioning how to pray and saying “None of your prayers will be complete until he performs it in this manner” did not mention to the person to place his hands on his chest. Thus, what is understood from this, according to the popular opinion in the school, is that placing one’s hands to the sides is sunna.

The Second Proof:

It is related from Muhammad ibn ‘Amr ibn ‘Ata’ that he was sitting with a group of the Companions of the Prophet. “We mentioned the prayer of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and Abu Humayd as-Sa’idi said, ‘I remember the prayer of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, better than any of you. I saw that when he said the takbir he lifted his hands level with his shoulders. When he did ruku’, he placed his hands on his knees and then bent his back straight. When he raised his head, he stood up straight until each vertebra had returned to its place. When he went into sajda, he placed his arms so that they were neither stretched out nor held close. The toes of his feet pointed towards the qibla. When he sat after the first two rak’ats, he sat on his left foot and kept his right foot upright. When he sat after the last rak’at, he extended his left foot across, keeping the other upright and sat on his buttocks.” Sahih al-Bukhairi # 794.

In the narration of Abu Dawood we find: “I heard Abu Humayid As-Saa’idi say while in the company of ten of the companions of the Messenger of Allah – may Allah bless and grant him peace: “I am the most knowledgeable of you of the prayer of the Messenger of Allah – may Allah bless him and grant him peace.” They said, “How (so)? For by Allah, you were neither the one who spent the most time with him, nor the eldest of us to him in companionship.” He said, “True indeed.” They said, “Show (us).”

Commenting on this al-Shaykh Muhammad al-’Abid wrote that “this is a clear proof for the practice of placing one’s hands to the side.” His reasoning was that this description of the Prophet’s prayer [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] took place during a gathering of the companions [may Allah be pleased with them all] who initially questioned Abu Humayid’s contention. However, after relating what he knew of the Prophet’s prayer they responded, “You have stated the truth! That is how he [may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him] used to pray.” Notice, as al-’Abid noted that they did not say, “You forgot to mention clasping the hands!”

Some may counter and say that Abu Humayid did not mention placing the hands on the sides? The response is that, such a statement supports placing one’s hands on the sides since something so common did not have to be mentioned and the origin, while standing, would be to place one’s hands to the sides.

It is hoped that this brief look at this issue will open the doors of understanding between those who follow the school of Imam Malik and those who don’t. It is important to realize that this contention is based on sound evidence and over 1000 years of academic rigor. The Schools of Fiqh represent a treasure of guidance and direction and are not simply based on whims and fashions. While not perfect, they must be respect and honored for one to truly understand and grasp the Shari’ah.

May Allah’s peace and blessing be upon the Prophet and those who follow him.

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 07:43 PM
This is an article written by Ustadh Yusuf Rios (Abul Hussein) in the comments to the article by Suhaib Webb. He was together with Imam Suhaib Webb in the USA and in Egypt for several years. However, he returned to the USA a few years ago, whereas Suhaib Webb stayed for another few years. He does not follow any one Madhab as far as I know. Also, he was my teacher for almost a year before he moved to another state.



When we look to the hadiths we find a number of positions for the hands:

1.) Textual proof for folding the right hand over the left and placing the hands under the belly button.

(This is the school of the Muhaddith Imam Ishaq Ibn Rahwayah (r) and Imam Abu Hanifa (r) and the Muhaddith Imam Ahmad (in one narration).

The text to support this position can be found in Abu Dawood and in the Musannaf of Abi Shaiba. The texts mentions folding the hands right over left and placing them under the belly button this last aspect of the hadith which mentions placing the hands under the belly button is an addition (ziyadat) to the major part of the hadith which mentions the folding the hands right over left and it is of a disputed nature.

Some scholars of hadith A good many if not the majority) have said that the addition to the hadith which enjoins the practice of placing one’s folded hands under the bellybutton is not valid (not sound).

Other scholars particularly the Ulema (scholars of hadith) from India and Pakistan found the addition to be sound and recently the Muhaddith from Syria Muhammad Awaama (h) included this addition as sound in his critical edition of the Musannaf Of Imam Abi Shayba (r).

There are details as to the ways the hands are folding in the madhab of Imam Numan Ibn Thabit (Abu Hanifa). These details vary a bit from Syria to India but all are found in the main works of the madhab.

2.) The hands are folded right over left and placed on the middle area of the chest.

Then the hands are placed above the belly button and below the upper part of the chest. this is the madhab of the majority of scholars including Imam Shafi and Malik (in one narration)and Imam Ahmad (in a narration).

This act is based on the text narrated by Abu Dawood. The narration on Imam Malik is mentioned in the Sharh of Imam Muslim of the Muhaddith Qadi Iyad al Maliki (r). Qadi Iyad mentioned that this is the position of Imam Malik in both the fard and nafl salawaat.

3.) The hands are folded right over left.

Then they are placed on the upper part of the chest.
The hadith for this position is recorded in the Sahih of Imam Ibn Khuzaima (r).

This is the madhab of Shaikh al Albani (r) and the Hanbalis in Saudia, Ahl al Hadeeth in India as recorded by Bedadeen as Sindi (r).

4.) One can chose between number one and two. This is an opinion narrated on Imam Ahmad. Qadi Iyad narrated this as an opinion of the scholars and noted that the Maliki opinion is for the hands to be placed above the belly button after being folded.

The Muhaddith Imam Shaukani (r) narrated in Daarari al Bayhiyyah that there are three opinions in regard to the folding of the hands, in salah, placing the right over left:
1.) placing the folded hands on the middle of the chest while standing
2.) placing the folded hands under the belly button while standing
3.) one is left to choose between opinion 1 and 2

As far as the hadiths that identify where the hands are to be placed specifically some scholars hold the strongest and clearest hadith is that of Imam Ibn Khuzaimah according to scholars of hadith.

For the Malikis a good many of their scholars make recourse to the Amal of Madina in this issue and hold that it was their practice to leave the hands to the sides and this was the opinion of Imam Ibn Qasim in the Maliki school.

The Maliki school as is clear has two positions regarding the hands and our scholars differ over this issue but the well known position in the madhab is the position of Imam Ibn Qasim (r). Up until the contemporary period this issue is debated among the scholars of Maliki fiqh.

The Malikis have 7 proofs to refer to without weakening any hadith in Bukhari and Muslim to prove the validity of sadl.

Despite this we find two opinions on the matter in the madhab the sadl position being the well known in the madhab and folding the hands on the middle part of the chest.

One thing to be understood is that there is great flexibility in this issue. Folding the hands is not a part of the pillars of the Salah in any madhab.

Following any of the schools above over and against one’s madhab does not invalidate one’s salah.

There is no hardship in the matter as the people of knowledge have narrated on more than one occasion.

In fact, the best approach is to conform to the practice of the community one belongs to as long as what is being followed is a legitimate opinion. And this for the sake of avoiding controversy with people who have limited knowledge of differences or to going against the group the group.

In the madhab of Imam Malik (r) this is flexible matter for a number of reasons:

1.) because it is not a pillar of the salah
2.) based on the principle murahtul khilaf (acknowledging the evidence of another school as holding a strong position while acknowledging the evidence of one’s own school)
3.) both opinions are in the school (hands to the side hands on the chest)
4.) the majority opinion is the opposite of the practice of sadl so in the case of stirring conflict it is best to abide by the majority opinion on the grounds of dalil (in and out of the madhab) and predicated upon the principle in the Usul of Imam Malik, the principle of Maslaha (seeking to realize the common good) and based on the fiqhi principle hardship necessitates ease.

Shaikh Suhaib Webb, aimed to illustrate in a simple manner that sadl has a basis and that as a Maliki there is no need to press an issue and as a non Maliki there is no need to make an issue wherein there is evidence for an action.

Unfortunately, our community suffers from extremes:

1.) Those who fight to press the issue about sadl in the name of establishing the madhab (as has been reported being the case and New Jersey and California and Cleveland in the US)

2.) From those who look at the practice of the madhabs as ungrounded.

In one case, we have madhabism (pushing people to taqleed) and it another case we have a staunch push to qualify the madhabs as useless and in some cases bid’ah. I hope that in this period that followed the bash against madhabs that we do not go over board and initiate madhabism as a reaction.

The Ulema of al-Azhar ash Sharif teach that the common person can make talfiqh, and that he is on the madhab of the person that gives fatwa. The person who follows a madhab or aims to follow the approach of the Muhadithoun these people should be easy with others. The key is to follow scholars.

Our community is too diverse to create fights over non-starters. There is not a real issue in this topic for the Ulema. This is an issue (the matter of hands) for those who are not well versed in fiqh. If one is reading a basic matn in fiqh in any madhab then it ought be clear that the issue of placing the hands on the sides or chest is not from the pillars of the salah and if not done does not invalidate the salah. The goal of madhab studies is to realize when an act is valid or not and if one has not achieved this level of understanding then it is best to be humble and seek to understand rather than debate.

This is why fiqh is taken from living Ulema that are well versed in Fiqh and know how to deal with people and is not taken from books or gained via internet chats and articles. It is one thing when we learn what is in a text and it is another thing when we apply it.

Allahu Alam Wa Al’aa
Abul-Hussein

abdulsidd
12-08-11, 07:48 PM
And finally, this is a comment to Imam Suhaib Webb's article, written by Imam Yahya Ederer (Abu Majeed). He also was a companion of Suhaib Webb and Yusuf Rios. He studied alongside the other two in the USA. Then he went with them to Egypt and studied Arabic. But then he moved to Kuwait and spent several years there studying the Hanbali fiqh before returning to the USA.



As I have known him to do for over 6 years Abul-Hussein broke it down. If I’m not mistaken, Suhaib was simply trying to shed some light on a minor issue that many of us wondered about whether it be about Malikis or Shi’ah. I think as illustrated by Sh. Suhaib and Abul-Hussein we can all agree that this is a matter of disagreement well rooted into the millenium + old rich tradition of our Deen. Therefore no one may oblige anyone to do or not to do it, although it is encouragable to inform (with gentleness) a blind follower (muqallid) of al-sadl of the other more clear (qati’) texts and the overwhelming majority opinion of the other madhahib based upon all texts on the subject. Of course that would be a foolish move to do in Libya where it is the common practice wherein it would be encouraged by a vistor who is aware of the texts on the matter to leave that SUNNAH in order to fulfill the obligatory (wajib) in being part of the Jama’ah and not sowing discord.

Basil al-Mamluk
12-08-11, 07:53 PM
It's a well known position in the Maliki madhab. There may be a difference of opinion amongst the scholars within the madhab but unless you follow or study the Maliki school, there's no point in trying to debate it.

exactly

i would venture to reckon that most of the people on this board have never seen someone pray this way and have never asked them why.

focus on other things people, its ramadan

IbnulQayyim
13-08-11, 12:37 AM
I know plenty of Muslims who dont folow 1. Their fine. Its easy enough for them.
The question is, as i have raised questions over before, why do people follow madhab to the extreme that they reject proven sunnàhs just cos they dont fall in line with their madhab. Why? Thats the million dollar question.

Excuse_me took the words out my mouth. No5hing wrong with following just dont become a sheep following everything blindly whilst rejecting other authentic sunnahs.

not doing raful yadayn is a sunnah in the hanafi madhhab..

IbnulQayyim
13-08-11, 12:38 AM
Interesting read on hands by our side whilst in salah:

http://www.muwatta.com/why-do-the-malikis-pray-with-their-hands-to-the-sides/

The Maliki Madhhab is a real interesting one to be honest...

Brother Hassan
13-08-11, 03:43 PM
This is why fiqh is taken from living Ulema that are well versed in Fiqh and know how to deal with people and is not taken from books or gained via internet chats and articles. It is one thing when we learn what is in a text and it is another thing when we apply it.

Soo True ...

truepath
13-08-11, 03:49 PM
It's a well known position in the Maliki madhab. There may be a difference of opinion amongst the scholars within the madhab but unless you follow or study the Maliki school, there's no point in trying to debate it.

yeh i agree with that. most people actually don't know about it but debate on it.

alGhurabaa77
13-08-11, 11:55 PM
There's a few posts i have to reply to, however i dont think people are getting the points im making. Khair maybe i didnt type it well. Therefore i see no reason to carry on contributing as the subject of madhabs generally causes friction & this is something we should try to avoid at least in this month.

Yunus as Safadi rahimahullah had a discussion with Imaam Shafi'i rahimahullah once, & they differed on some issues. The next morning Imam Shafi'i took Yunus' hand & said "Is it not possible we can disagree and yet still be brothers?" SubhaanAllaah. May Allaah give the Muslims the ability to unite on Laa ilaaha illalaah Aameen

Pippin1376
14-08-11, 12:03 AM
Asalamu Alaikum,

I really dont understand why some people who follow the Maliki Madhab(not all the people) do this. Is it because of ignorance?

Is there any proof from the Quran or Sunnah that it is allowed to pray with your hands down? I've personally yet to find any.

This is when it gets dangerous with regards to blindly following a madhab. People for some reason just ignore his situation and start adding to stuff to the salat. The general rule in ibadah is that everything is impermissible unless there is proof for it.

Wallahu Aalim

Imam Malik would also look at what the people of Medina would do and so they prayed with their hands to the side. I'm sure there are other proof too, but I'm not too knowledgeable in it.

It's fine though, same with praying with your hands on your chest.

Glorfindel
14-08-11, 01:26 AM
As-Salam 'Aliekum,

I follow the Maliki Madhab and we put our hands to our sides and that is the mashour opinion within the Madhab. We are allowed to cross our hands in prayer (Qabd) only in the Nafl and Sunnah prayers, this is to support ourselves provided the recitation is long, i.e. in Tarawih.

It is makrooh to cross our hands in the Fard prayers which are to be kept short so as not to burden the congregation. Although some scholars in contemporary times (such as ibn Bayyah) have said we should cross our hands in a congregation that is primarily made up of those who cross their hands, so as not to cause disunity in the prayers.

As for this notion that Imam Malik (Allah Yerhamhu) only did this (sadl al-yadein) after his torture is wrong as this occurred to him later in life after he had compiled Al-Muwatta and his figh was known and famous, so it wouldn't make sense to say that his practice was a dispensation for him since he couldn't cross his hands for this would have been recorded in the books of the fuqaha in our school.

I hope this helps.

IbnulQayyim
14-08-11, 05:23 AM
As-Salam 'Aliekum,

I follow the Maliki Madhab and we put our hands to our sides and that is the mashour opinion within the Madhab. We are allowed to cross our hands in prayer (Qabd) only in the Nafl and Sunnah prayers, this is to support ourselves provided the recitation is long, i.e. in Tarawih.

It is makrooh to cross our hands in the Fard prayers which are to be kept short so as not to burden the congregation. Although some scholars in contemporary times (such as ibn Bayyah) have said we should cross our hands in a congregation that is primarily made up of those who cross their hands, so as not to cause disunity in the prayers.

As for this notion that Imam Malik (Allah Yerhamhu) only did this (sadl al-yadein) after his torture is wrong as this occurred to him later in life after he had compiled Al-Muwatta and his figh was known and famous, so it wouldn't make sense to say that his practice was a dispensation for him since he couldn't cross his hands for this would have been recorded in the books of the fuqaha in our school.

I hope this helps.

what font is in your signature btw?

and thanks for the answer.

abdulsidd
14-08-11, 05:35 AM
As-Salam 'Aliekum,

I follow the Maliki Madhab and we put our hands to our sides and that is the mashour opinion within the Madhab. We are allowed to cross our hands in prayer (Qabd) only in the Nafl and Sunnah prayers, this is to support ourselves provided the recitation is long, i.e. in Tarawih.

It is makrooh to cross our hands in the Fard prayers which are to be kept short so as not to burden the congregation. Although some scholars in contemporary times (such as ibn Bayyah) have said we should cross our hands in a congregation that is primarily made up of those who cross their hands, so as not to cause disunity in the prayers.

As for this notion that Imam Malik (Allah Yerhamhu) only did this (sadl al-yadein) after his torture is wrong as this occurred to him later in life after he had compiled Al-Muwatta and his figh was known and famous, so it wouldn't make sense to say that his practice was a dispensation for him since he couldn't cross his hands for this would have been recorded in the books of the fuqaha in our school.

I hope this helps.

I know several Malikis in my local community, mostly from Sudan and Libya, and I have only seen one person who practices Sadl, although I haven't seen that person for several years now. Everyone else folds their hands, usually on their chest. And this is in Fard prayers as well as voluntary prayers.

Not arguing your point that Sadl is a valid Maliki opinion. The articles which I posted above prove that it is, and I'll be asking my Shaykh about it again, InshaAllah, when I get the chance, but I'm skeptical about the part where you say that it is makrooh to fold the hands. As the articles which I posted mention, it seems that there are two or even three valid opinions regarding this issue in the Maliki madhab. So it may be makrooh according the Maliki opinion which you follow, but not according to other Maliki opinions.

truepath
14-08-11, 06:57 AM
There's a few posts i have to reply to, however i dont think people are getting the points im making. Khair maybe i didnt type it well. Therefore i see no reason to carry on contributing as the subject of madhabs generally causes friction & this is something we should try to avoid at least in this month.

Yunus as Safadi rahimahullah had a discussion with Imaam Shafi'i rahimahullah once, & they differed on some issues. The next morning Imam Shafi'i took Yunus' hand & said "Is it not possible we can disagree and yet still be brothers?" SubhaanAllaah. May Allaah give the Muslims the ability to unite on Laa ilaaha illalaah Aameen

It is only in recent years and from those who follow no madhab have got a problem with anyone those follows one. Otherwise, shafiis over the last several centuries, shaffis never had problem with hanafis or hanbalis, nor hanafis ever had with shafiis or hanbalis. Likewise hanbalis dont have a problem with shafis or hanafis. All have always accepted each others opinion as a valid difference of opinion and have co-existed peacefully without any problem. Its only those who dont follow any madhab, that frown upon the throat of those follow one. Recently I came across a post someone jumping on hanafis like why they do not do rafah yadain when there is proof that it is the most correct opinion. Well, that most be the most correct opinion in the school of hanbalis, however, hanafis haven't recently started to abolish rafa yadain only in recent years. It is from the time of Imam Abu Haneefa they have never done rafa yadain and the 1000s of scholars who have establish the school and revived it have their proofs for which they believe that rafa yadain is not required.

Yet, hanbalis never had a go at hanafis for this reason, nor hanafis had a go at hanbalis for rafa yadain. Its only the new followers of contemporary time that jump on people of all four madhahib and come across as these madhabis are blind following. Otherwise respect and brotherhood between the people of all 4 madhahib had always existed.

Glorfindel
14-08-11, 05:31 PM
what font is in your signature btw?

and thanks for the answer.

I think it is called "Andalus"



I know several Malikis in my local community, mostly from Sudan and Libya, and I have only seen one person who practices Sadl, although I haven't seen that person for several years now. Everyone else folds their hands, usually on their chest. And this is in Fard prayers as well as voluntary prayers.

Not arguing your point that Sadl is a valid Maliki opinion. The articles which I posted above prove that it is, and I'll be asking my Shaykh about it again, InshaAllah, when I get the chance, but I'm skeptical about the part where you say that it is makrooh to fold the hands. As the articles which I posted mention, it seems that there are two or even three valid opinions regarding this issue in the Maliki madhab. So it may be makrooh according the Maliki opinion which you follow, but not according to other Maliki opinions.

It is in Mudawaana Al-Kubra where it is stated that it is disliked. I can't remember the other places where it is mentioned.