Position on 9/11

[kaphirgoyim]

Ok, here should be a fun poll.
(in order not to poison the poll, I will answer tomorrow.)

[kaphirgoyim]

Interesting. So this is the prevailing view of the members of this board. I don't believe it. Come on, I participate in all of YOUR polls guys and girls......

I find it PLEASING that over 2/3's of us believe for a fact that Bin Laden is guilty :)

[HelpingHand]

Asslamo Allaikum All,

I have never met Bin Laden or any members of Al-Qaida and don’t have access to sensitive information so don’t know, but…

I find this approach on the forums really interesting. Isn’t this how the Media works in the West?

In a proper judicial system evidence is concerted, accused is given a chance to prove their innocence while the prosecution is given a chance to prove the guilt…but in trail by Media you are just guilty based on “opinions”

Isn’t a similar approach is being used to malign Muslims & Islam.

Please note that I am not trying to offend the Brothers/Sisters who are starting polls in anyway and please accept my apologies if my opinion is hurtful to anyone…

[THHuxley]

In a proper judicial system evidence is concerted, accused is given a chance to prove their innocence while the prosecution is given a chance to prove the guilt…but in trail by Media you are just guilty based on “opinions”
So whatever made you mistake an online poll (or even the media) for a "judicial system?"

Isn’t a similar approach is being used to malign Muslims & Islam.
Hmmmm. Perhaps. But even in a "judicial system," truth is an affirmative defense against charges of slander.

And of course, let's never forget that uncoerced confessions are pretty powerful too.

[nami]

i think it was done by the American government. it was a massive lie to frame the Muslims just so the Americans could have a reason to go to Muslims countries and attack them, but the hidden agenda was simply to use propaganda and take their oil, making it look like they are ridding the world of terrorism.

no nukes found?
no airplain found in pentagon?
osama bin ladin been ill in American hospital being cared by American government for months before the attack?

so we need more options i.e.

American bombed themselves to frame the Muslims.

[Masumah]

i dont belive any muslim cud ave done such an attack.

[salik zahid]

have you guys seen the documentary loose change.

you should check it out

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en

[THHuxley]

have you guys seen the documentary loose change.

you should check it out

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501&q=loose+change&hl=en
I've seen the "documentary." But since I am an engineer, I could not take it seriously.

[Z-Blade]

I've seen the "documentary." But since I am an engineer, I could not take it seriously.

What about this one?:

TerrorStorm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230&q=terrorstorm

[THHuxley]

What about this one?:

TerrorStorm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=786048453686176230&q=terrorstorm
What about it?

[Z-Blade]

What about it?

Have you seen it? DUH!

[THHuxley]

Have you seen it? DUH!
You just gave me the link. So, not yet, no.

But why not just cut to the chase? What about it impresses you? Rather than give random links to videos that may or may not be worth the time to watch, why don't you try and put into your own words what you find impressive about it, and we'll discuss the details?

You pose the claim you find most compelling, and let's cover them one at a time. If I have no background in the subject matter, I'll tell you. But I'm well qualified to speak to all the engineering claims, as well as discuss the details of demolitions and explosives (I'm an ex-Army officer with extensive background in demolitions).

It's very easy to be misled by general claims in a video format. So let's talk details... shall we?

PS. Have you seen the whole thing? Do you really spend hours watching all these things? Especially when it generally doesn't take that long to conclude whether the videos are competent in the subject matter.

[Fahad Hasnain]

Mossad orchestrated 9/11.

[THHuxley]

Have you seen it? DUH!
Okay, now I've seen it.

I ask again... what about it impressed you?

[ITUT]

i think it was done by the American government. it was a massive lie to frame the Muslims just so the Americans could have a reason to go to Muslims countries and attack them, but the hidden agenda was simply to use propaganda and take their oil, making it look like they are ridding the world of terrorism.

no nukes found?
no airplain found in pentagon?
osama bin ladin been ill in American hospital being cared by American government for months before the attack?

so we need more options i.e.

American bombed themselves to frame the Muslims.

al salam alaikom akhi Nami

if you watch this it will show you there is more to it than OIL.

http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=106777

salam alaikom

[Z-Blade]

Okay, now I've seen it.

I ask again... what about it impressed you?

The truth about the West and the terrorism of the USA and the many schemes they do like 9/11 to get their goals to happen worldwide.

Making it completely possible and most likely that they did commit 9/11.

[pixi]

osama bin ladin been ill in American hospital being cared by American government for months before the attack?


Really? This is the first time I've heard this. Where is the proof?

[Qualitex]

I Find 9/11 A Cooperation between the Corrupt sects of the American government and Al-Qaida.

[THHuxley]

The truth about the West and the terrorism of the USA and the many schemes they do like 9/11 to get their goals to happen worldwide.

Making it completely possible and most likely that they did commit 9/11.
The only thing that would qualify to make it "most likely" would be actual evidence to that effect.

However, the actual evidence (to include freely made confessions by Ramzi Binalshibh, Khalid Sheik Muhammad and OBL himself) is that 9/11 is exactly what it appears to be; an Al Qaeda terrorist attack.

Now... the fact that you are easily suckered by videos of conspiracy theorists interviewing each other is not such a surprising thing. After all, when one person asks a question and a false answer is provided, how can you tell it was false when both questioner and answerer are in on the scam?

But again, for those of us with actual backgrounds in relevent fields (such as engineering or demolitions), such films are a yawn.

Actual knowledge goes a long way to providing a defense against silly propaganda. This is why you are impressed, while I am not.

If you'd like to actually discuss evidence (one issue at a time of course) I'm happy to play. But please, don't ask me to waste more time watching hours worth of vacuous and ill informed speculation like these silly films.

[nami]

al salam alaikom akhi Nami

if you watch this it will show you there is more to it than OIL.

http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=106777

salam alaikom

you're right akhi! :up:

[nami]

osama bin ladin been ill in American hospital being cared by American government for months before the attack?


Really? This is the first time I've heard this. Where is the proof?

its something i read, but i bet that website has been removed from existence, they said he is still with them under their care...

[Z-Blade]

The only thing that would qualify to make it "most likely" would be actual evidence to that effect.

However, the actual evidence (to include freely made confessions by Ramzi Binalshibh, Khalid Sheik Muhammad and OBL himself) is that 9/11 is exactly what it appears to be; an Al Qaeda terrorist attack.

Now... the fact that you are easily suckered by videos of conspiracy theorists interviewing each other is not such a surprising thing. After all, when one person asks a question and a false answer is provided, how can you tell it was false when both questioner and answerer are in on the scam?

But again, for those of us with actual backgrounds in relevent fields (such as engineering or demolitions), such films are a yawn.

Actual knowledge goes a long way to providing a defense against silly propaganda. This is why you are impressed, while I am not.

If you'd like to actually discuss evidence (one issue at a time of course) I'm happy to play. But please, don't ask me to waste more time watching hours worth of vacuous and ill informed speculation like these silly films.

All that you say here does not change the fact that the attacks allegedly commited by Muslim terrorists has not helped the attackers in the least bit but in fact gave the fascists and political terrorists of the West more power to do as they please and control the people more.

It has only benefitted the corrupt leaders of the West more than anything. It's just made it easier to harrass Muslims and punish them on the basis of guilty until proven innocent. It's really too much of a coincidence and a great convenience for all this to happen due to attacks that happened allegedly by Muslim terrorists.

[THHuxley]

All that you say here does not change the fact that the attacks allegedly commited by Muslim terrorists has not helped the attackers in the least bit but in fact gave the fascists and political terrorists of the West more power to do as they please and control the people more.
An egregious miscalculation by the perpetrators is no evidence that they are not actually responsible for the atrocity. But it is not obvious that this really was a complete miscalculation on OBL's part. He seems in many ways to have gotten exactly what he wanted out of it, minus the Saudi Royal Family remaining in power through it all.

It has only benefitted the corrupt leaders of the West more than anything. It's just made it easier to harrass Muslims and punish them on the basis of guilty until proven innocent. It's really too much of a coincidence and a great convenience for all this to happen due to attacks that happened allegedly by Muslim terrorists.
There is no coincidence at all. It absolutely is easier to harass Muslims and punish them on the basis of guilty until proven innocent because Islamic Terrorists attacked the US on 9/11 and murdered thousands of innocent people. The Madrid and London bombings just added to the tension between Islam and the West.

You imagine this was not the intention of the Muslim perpetrators?

Why?

You think they care about Muslim lives any more than western lives? You guys are as much cannon fodder in their eyes as we are.

[Mace]

its something i read, but i bet that website has been removed from existence, they said he is still with them under their care...

And with that, you are convinced this is true? Do you believe everything you remember reading on the Internet once?

[Z-Blade]

An egregious miscalculation by the perpetrators is no evidence that they are not actually responsible for the atrocity. But it is not obvious that this really was a complete miscalculation on OBL's part. He seems in many ways to have gotten exactly what he wanted out of it, minus the Saudi Royal Family remaining in power through it all.


What you forgot to mention is that the West got to attack the Middle Eastern countries because of the 9/11 attack. The Western countries would have no reason to attack Afghanistan and Iraq and take their oil and build strategic bases there otherwise. The 7/7 attack was devised and done so as to keep the people under the impression that they are still under threat.

However, you should know there are no real unknown terrorists. It's known ones, and they are the people in power.


There is no coincidence at all. It absolutely is easier to harass Muslims and punish them on the basis of guilty until proven innocent because Islamic Terrorists attacked the US on 9/11 and murdered thousands of innocent people. The Madrid and London bombings just added to the tension between Islam and the West.

You imagine this was not the intention of the Muslim perpetrators?

Why?

You think they care about Muslim lives any more than western lives? You guys are as much cannon fodder in their eyes as we are.


Why would Muslims want other Muslims to suffer? That makes no sense at all. You convince nobody!

Also, you say Muslims did the attack. Let's just say for the sake of argument this is true. Now, we see that these were only a handful of Muslims which the rest (of the Muslims) were totally disconnected to. So now, why must we suffer due to the action of a handful of loonies? They did something completely un-Islamic, which is to

1) Kill mass innocents

Quran (al-Maidah 5: 32) “whosoever killed a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and who saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind”.

2) Commit suicide

"And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction, and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good." (2:195)

[Maureen]

i dont belive any muslim cud ave done such an attack.

Of course they did. OBL came on Arab TV admitting it and said more was to follow.

[Mace]

i dont belive any muslim cud ave done such an attack.

Why not?

[Z-Blade]

Why not?

It may be because of what I wrote in my post:

"They did something completely un-Islamic, which is to

1) Kill mass innocents

Quran (al-Maidah 5: 32) “whosoever killed a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and who saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind”.

2) Commit suicide

"And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction, and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good." (2:195) "

Post #25.

[Mace]

It may be because of what I wrote in my post:

"They did something completely un-Islamic, which is to

1) Kill mass innocents

Quran (al-Maidah 5: 32) “whosoever killed a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and who saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind”.

2) Commit suicide

"And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction, and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good." (2:195) "

Post #25.

So Muslims never do anything un-Islamic? They are all 100% perfect?

And does this mean that the various suicide attacks in Israel or against the USS Cole, and so on, must also then have been committed by non-Muslims?

[Z-Blade]

So Muslims never do anything un-Islamic? They are all 100% perfect?


Such a weak argument there. I don't know why you bothered to say it. I can tell you that for someone to go totally against Islam and end their lives is not an easy decision, as you can imagine, and I doubt any Muslim would do that.


And does this mean that the various suicide attacks in Israel or against the USS Cole, and so on, must also then have been committed by non-Muslims?

Perhaps. Allah knows best.

But in that situation, I would say it's more understandable why a Muslim would do that when he is so oppressed and sees no way out. He believes he will die anyway, why not do it while taking out the enemy?

Though I believe killing civilians in any situation is wrong.

[Mace]

Such a weak argument there. I don't know why you bothered to say it. I can tell you that for someone to go totally against Islam and end their lives is not an easy decision, as you can imagine, and I doubt any Muslim would do that.

Really? So by that logic then you should doubt that any Muslim has ever committed a suicide attack. In fact, other major religions forbid suicide also. So I guess there are not very many suicides in the world?

For example, why would it be different for those who attacked the USS Cole versus 9/11?

Also killing an innocent person (even without suicide) is also totally against Islam. So does that mean there are never murders committed by Muslims? So there are no murders at all in Muslim countries?

[Z-Blade]

Really? So by that logic then you should doubt that any Muslim has ever committed a suicide attack.

For example, why would it be different for those who attacked the USS Cole versus 9/11?

Of course I would doubt. I will continue doubting until I see clear evidence.

As for the USS Cole attack, that was a American guided missile destroyer for the Love of God! The difference between this and 9/11 cannot be any clearer. I don't see a problem in attacking it.


Also killing an innocent person (even without suicide) is also totally against Islam. So does that mean there are never murders committed by Muslims? So there are no murders at all in Muslim countries?


Murdering one person is one thing. But murdering in mass numbers at once and at the same time commiting suicide? It's a totally different situation/story. The motives are usually clear for murder, but for these terrorists attack, the alleged attackers didn't have good enough motives to attribute to them the crime.

[-Shamil-]

yeah i reckon it was muslims too

i dont think you'll ever find many non-muslims willing to die for an attack like that :rolleyes:

[Mace]

Of course I would doubt. I will continue doubting until I see clear evidence.

As for the USS Cole attack, that was a American guided missile destroyer for the Love of God! The difference between this and 9/11 cannot be any clearer. I don't see a problem in attacking it.

But the USS Cole was still a suicide attack. You just said that committing suicide was totally against Islam and that you doubt any Muslim could have done it.

[-Shamil-]

For example, why would it be different for those who attacked the USS Cole versus 9/11?
do you think the USS cole was a legitimate target?

[Z-Blade]

yeah i reckon it was muslims too

i dont think you'll ever find many non-muslims willing to die for an attack like that :rolleyes:

Who said any non-Muslims died to do the attack? They have enough advanced technology so that they have had automated aeroplanes and the like for some time now. Israel is especially popular in using this.

It could easily have been that. Don't believe everything you hear, unless there is clear evidence for it. Don't believe it especially when they say they hijacked the plane with box-cutters(!) and everyone just watched them pilot the plane and just decided to do nothing and die whereas the only way to save themselves would be to do something.

But the USS Cole was still a suicide attack. You just said that committing suicide was totally against Islam and that you doubt any Muslim could have done it.

Perhaps they believed they would die anyway doing the attack so they did it in a way that it would definitely work.

It's like how Muslims fought the Persians. Against elephants, they had to use the tactic where the Muslim archer stood his ground against the charging elephant, and try to shoot it in the eye! There was no other way to defeat it, and in most cases you could see they must have been trampled in the process, unless if Allah saved them. This is similar to a suicide attack which is believed to be worthwhile doing.

[-Shamil-]

Who said any non-Muslims died to do the attack? They have enough advanced technology so that they have had automated aeroplanes and the like for some time now. Israel is especially popular in using this.

and where does Bin Laden come into this? i assume you think all he's tapes urging people to fight america are fake? does he exist? who does he work for?

and where do the conspiracies stop? if thats a conspiracy, then is beslan a conspircy - despite a muslim having claimed he did it? what else?

It could easily have been that. Don't believe everything you hear, unless there is clear evidence for it. Don't believe it especially when they say the hijacked the plane with box-cutters(!)

any evidence?


and everyone just watched them pilot the plane and just decided to do nothing and die whereas the only way to save themselves would be to do something.


americans arent exactly known for their bravery

[THHuxley]

What you forgot to mention is that the West got to attack the Middle Eastern countries because of the 9/11 attack. The Western countries would have no reason to attack Afghanistan and Iraq and take their oil and build strategic bases there otherwise.
What you forget to mention is that prior to 9/11 the Western Countries already had bases in (at least) Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Yemen. There was already no shortage of "strategic bases," so no apparent subterfuge for bases was needed.

But yes, the 9/11 attacks gave the West a very good reason (rather than "excuse") to attack Afghanistan. As for Iraq, 9/11 was not a good excuse. It may have made it much easier, but Iraq had nothing directly to do with the 9/11 attacks.

The 7/7 attack was devised and done so as to keep the people under the impression that they are still under threat.
And what real evidence do you have that (like the 9/11 attacks) the London Bombings are not exactly what they appear to be? Or the Madrid bombings? And how is it (pretending your conspiracy theories are true) does "the West" keep managing to recruit your brothers to do their dirty work?

However, you should know there are no real unknown terrorists. It's known ones, and they are the people in power.
Yes, we know that this is your opinion. But the sources you go to bolster your own confidence (i.e. the pathetic videos you have shared to this point) only allow those of us with some real understanding of the issues to dismiss you as naive.

Why would Muslims want other Muslims to suffer? That makes no sense at all. You convince nobody!
Muslims have been slaughtering each other since the birth of the religion. Half of the "rightly guided" caliphs were assasinated by fellow Muslims. The grandsons of Muhammad himself were murdered by other Muslims.

Today you guys are busily killing each other in Iraq some 50 times more expeditiously than you are killing American occupiers. In Sudan, Arab Muslims are raping and killing black Muslims by the tens of thousands.

You ask why? Believe, me! I have no general idea why. I figure you are in a much better position to answer that question than I am.

But as to Al Qaeda, the objective of killing other Muslims is to create the environment of conflict between Islam and the West in which a new caliphate can form. OBL miscalculated, hoping the immediate effect would be an overthrow of the Saudi Royals, which did not happen. So now he is calling for the caliphate to be formed in Sunni iraq.

I mean, that would be worth a few hundred thousand dead Muslims, right? At least OBL seems to think so. Do you not agree with him?

Also, you say Muslims did the attack. Let's just say for the sake of argument this is true. Now, we see that these were only a handful of Muslims which the rest (of the Muslims) were totally disconnected to. So now, why must we suffer due to the action of a handful of loonies?
Yes. The loonies of Al Qaeda have done the vast masses of "disconnected Muslims" no favor. They have created a massive global “public relations problem” for Islam.

So why do you try to exonerate them and blame the West instead?

They did something completely un-Islamic, which is to

1) Kill mass innocents

Quran (al-Maidah 5: 32) “whosoever killed a human being for other than man slaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and who saved the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind”.

2) Commit suicide

"And spend [freely] in God's cause, and let not your own hands throw you into destruction, and persevere in doing good: behold, God loves the doers of good." (2:195)
As you are aware, there are a significant number of your fellow Muslims who do not interpret these ayaat the same way do you. Ignoring that Surah al-Maidah 5:32 is addressed to the Jews and not the Muslims, it has in it a rather huge loophole: “or corruption in the earth.” Since there is no clear definition of “corruption/mischief” in the Qur’an, it is a loophole big enough to fly a 767 through.

And let’s not even get into the Islamic affection for martyrdom, shall we? “Suicide” is in the eyes of the martyr.

[Mace]

do you think the USS cole was a legitimate target?

For a proper organized military or militia (legal combatants), yes. Like for instance if there was a Caliphate and the Caliphate attacked the Cole as part of a war against the US, that would be legal. And then the US could legitimately respond in a war against the Caliphate if we so chose.

But when private citizens (not part of any officially organized militia) on their own start attacking military targets, that becomes a criminal act.

This is in contrast to a rebel militia attacking military ships, for instance. In that case you have an organized militia with a known command and control structure. In many cases, those are legitimate, recognized legal combatants under the Geneva convention.

And the militia (and their supporters) are usually not trying to deny they even did it. If a Muslim militia wants to rise up and declare war on the US, that's their right. But then at least we'll know who is at war with whom. And people can choose to support them or not rather than trying to claim they don't exist or trying to say they didn't do it. People will be forced to take a position rather than weasel around with conspiracy stories.

To pick another example, if organized militia in Iraq attack military vehicles, that is their right. We might not like it. And the military forces have a right to fire back.

[Z-Blade]

and where does Bin Laden come into this? i assume you think all he's tapes urging people to fight america are fake? does he exist? who does he work for?

and where do the conspiracies stop? if thats a conspiracy, then is beslan a conspircy - despite a muslim having claimed he did it? what else?


Bin Laden comes into it only as a scapegoat. I don't think the tapes where he urges people to fight America are fake, but Allah knows best. Who he works for? Don't know enough to answer, but from his fighting in Afghanistan, he probably works for himself and his Muslim brethren.

Conspiracy? More like blaming the attack on someone with the least resources to do it and done in such a way that America could have easily stopped it with their tight security is the conspiracy.

Ask for answers, ask for evidence.

any evidence?

Eh? This is what all the media reported and America reported happened.


americans arent exactly known for their bravery

Ummm, I see you are running out of ideas.

[Mace]

Perhaps they believed they would die anyway doing the attack so they did it in a way that it would definitely work.

You could say exactly the same thing about an attack on the Pentagon. Perhaps they believed they would die anyway on an attack on the Pentagon, so they planned in a way that would be most effective.

Same thing.

BTW, I thought suicide was totally against Islam?

[THHuxley]

It could easily have been that. Don't believe everything you hear, unless there is clear evidence for it. Don't believe it especially when they say they hijacked the plane with box-cutters(!) and everyone just watched them pilot the plane and just decided to do nothing and die whereas the only way to save themselves would be to do something.
As you might recall, in the one plane where the passengers did know they would die if they did nothing... they did something!

Perhaps they believed they would die anyway doing the attack so they did it in a way that it would definitely work.
There you go. Now you're thinking like a good Islamic suicide bomber.

See? It wasn’t that hard to get through the Qur'anic proscription against suicide after all. It only took you about three posts.

[Mace]

Z-Blade, I want to make sure I understand your position. Are you saying that you just don't know who attacked us on 9/11?

Or are you saying you think it was non-Muslims?

[Z-Blade]

Z-Blade, I want to make sure I understand your position. Are you saying that you just don't know who attacked us on 9/11?

Or are you saying you think it was non-Muslims?

I'd say I believe it was done by the West, basically Bush's administration and perhaps Israel had a hand in it and all those who play a major role in the New World Order.

So, yeah I believe it was by non-Muslims.

There you go. Now you're thinking like a good Islamic suicide bomber.

See? It wasn’t that hard to get through the Qur'anic proscription against suicide after all. It only took you about three posts.

There's a difference between legitimate targets and the intention of the person and non-legitimate targets and wrong intentions. Please read properly.

[Mace]

I'd say I believe it was done by the West, basically Bush's administration and perhaps Israel had a hand in it and all those who play a major role in the New World Order.

So, yeah I believe it was by non-Muslims.



And since you don't like to believe things without proof, what convinced you of this? Some video on youtube?



There's a difference between legitimate targets and the intention of the person and non-legitimate targets and wrong intentions. Please read properly.

OK, that's the whole point. It depends on whether the attackers considered the targets to be legitimate. You made it sound like suicide was totally against Islam and therefore it would be highly unlikely that Muslim would do it.

But it turns out, that's not true is it? It depends. So if some Muslims could be convinced that the US Military command headquarters and/or one of its financial centers are legitimate targets, then what?

[THHuxley]

There's a difference between legitimate targets and the intention of the person and non-legitimate targets and wrong intentions. Please read properly.
I read it. You took all of three posts to decide that there really were legitimate reasons for Muslims to kill themselves (i.e. commit suicide) after all, conforming perfectly with the Al Qaeda line.

So now you are only a hair's breath away from agreeing with Al Qaeda that the WTC was a "legitimate target," (i.e. rationalize the "corruption" they were causing) and then you will have eliminated all your own objections to Muslim attackers.

[-Shamil-]

though i disagree with z-blade i understand his way of thinking

its not the first time certain powers would have engineered attacks on themselves to convince their own public to go to war - russia in the 1999 apartment bombings being an example

however the diff here is the russians through their general uselessness got caught in the act and some of the people involved came out i.e alexander litvenenko - it hasnt happened in the case of 9-11.

the amount of people that would have had to be involved for something like that - and still nothing comes out, no leaks, no info

[Z-Blade]

What you forget to mention is that prior to 9/11 the Western Countries already had bases in (at least) Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain and Yemen. There was already no shortage of "strategic bases," so no apparent subterfuge for bases was needed.

I don't exactly know their strategy, however, they are definitely building more bases. Why is there hardly any reconstruction taking placing? Because they are busy building their own bases. One of the reasons would obviously be to secure the oil for themselves. And any other resources.

But yes, the 9/11 attacks gave the West a very good reason (rather than "excuse") to attack Afghanistan. As for Iraq, 9/11 was not a good excuse. It may have made it much easier, but Iraq had nothing directly to do with the 9/11 attacks.

They tried to use 9/11 as an excuse first of all. However, it backfired since the people didn't buy it and I also saw a documentary about the victims of 9/11 and how Bush wanted their support for attacking Iraq but they refused.

And what real evidence do you have that (like the 9/11 attacks) the London Bombings are not exactly what they appear to be? Or the Madrid bombings? And how is it (pretending your conspiracy theories are true) does "the West" keep managing to recruit your brothers to do their dirty work?

What do they appear to be? All we have is some screenshots of Asian men with rucksacks, who may or may not be Muslim. And they are blamed for the bombing. How can you buy such hogwash?

Who said "my brothers" were involved at all?

Yes, we know that this is your opinion. But the sources you go to bolster your own confidence (i.e. the pathetic videos you have shared to this point) only allow those of us with some real understanding of the issues to dismiss you as naive.

It just not my opinion, but of many others. And slowly but surely more and more people realise that we don't have all the answers and there is so much cover-up to cause suspicion. So slowly this is becoming the majority view, if not already. Except for a few naive people such as yourself.


You ask why? Believe, me! I have no general idea why. I figure you are in a much better position to answer that question than I am.


The answer should be simple: traitors and hypocrites (they were never really Muslim, or they wanted power for themselves and became corrupt). Selfish political motives are always a problem in any community.


But as to Al Qaeda, the objective of killing other Muslims is to create the environment of conflict between Islam and the West in which a new caliphate can form. OBL miscalculated, hoping the immediate effect would be an overthrow of the Saudi Royals, which did not happen. So now he is calling for the caliphate to be formed in Sunni iraq.

I mean, that would be worth a few hundred thousand dead Muslims, right? At least OBL seems to think so. Do you not agree with him?


I don't see how the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Centre would make Muslims want to overthrow the Saudis? Or are you saying he calculated the after effects for that to happen? Even then, Saudi Arabia played no part in oppressing the Muslims (or no direct part at least). So why would they want to do that (Muslims overthrow Saudis)?


Yes. The loonies of Al Qaeda have done the vast masses of "disconnected Muslims" no favor. They have created a massive global “public relations problem” for Islam.

So why do you try to exonerate them and blame the West instead?


Because they are just a scapegoat and they never did it. Too many gains for the West and too many losses for the Muslims for them to have done it.


As you are aware, there are a significant number of your fellow Muslims who do not interpret these ayaat the same way do you. Ignoring that Surah al-Maidah 5:32 is addressed to the Jews and not the Muslims, it has in it a rather huge loophole: “or corruption in the earth.” Since there is no clear definition of “corruption/mischief” in the Qur’an, it is a loophole big enough to fly a 767 through.

And let’s not even get into the Islamic affection for martyrdom, shall we? “Suicide” is in the eyes of the martyr.

Here is the meaning of mischief, which is specific in Arabic and heavy sin (such as rape, mass killing, instigating others to murder, driving people out of their homes unjustly, rebelling and treason etc.) and not so broad nor anything light like in English. This is explained in Tafsir Ibn Kathir in the next ayat or so:







Warning Those who Commit Mischiefhttp://www.ummah.com/forum/mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/arrow-left.gif (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/5.13723.html) http://www.ummah.com/forum/mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/arrow-right.gif (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/5.13751.html)








Allah said,

﴿وَلَقَدْ جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالّبَيِّنَـتِ﴾

(And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with Al-Bayyinat,) meaning, clear evidences, signs and proofs,

﴿ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيراً مِّنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذلِكَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ﴾

(even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits in the land!) This Ayah chastises and criticizes those who commit the prohibitions, after knowing that they are prohibited from indulging in them. The Jews of Al-Madinah, such as Banu Qurayzah, An-Nadir and Qaynuqa`, used to fight along with either Khazraj or Aws, when war would erupt between them during the time of Jahiliyyah. When these wars would end, the Jews would ransom those who were captured and pay the blood money for those who were killed. Allah criticized them for this practice in Surat Al-Baqarah,

﴿وَإِذْ أَخَذْنَا مِيثَـقَكُمْ لاَ تَسْفِكُونَ دِمَآءِكُمْ وَلاَ تُخْرِجُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ مِّن دِيَـرِكُمْ ثُمَّ أَقْرَرْتُمْ وَأَنتُمْ تَشْهَدُونَ - ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَـؤُلاَءِ تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقًا مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَـرِهِمْ تَظَـهَرُونَ علَيْهِم بِالإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَنِ وَإِن يَأْتُوكُمْ أُسَـرَى تُفَـدُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَـبِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَآءُ مَن يَفْعَلُ ذلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْىٌ فِي الْحَيَوةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الّعَذَابِ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَـفِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ ﴾ (And (remember) when We took your covenant (saying): Shed not your (people's) blood, nor turn out your own people from their dwellings. Then, (this) you ratified and (to this) you bear witness. After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of your own from their homes, assist (their enemies) against them, in sin and transgression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you. Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.) ﴿2:84-85﴾








The Punishment of those Who Cause Mischief in the Landhttp://www.ummah.com/forum/mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/arrow-left.gif (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/5.13743.html) http://www.ummah.com/forum/mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/arrow-right.gif (mk:@MSITStore:C:\Islam\tafsir-ibn-kathir.chm::/5.13783.html)








Allah said next,

﴿إِنَّمَا جَزَآءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَـفٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ﴾

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah and Al-Hasan Al-Basri said that the Ayat,

﴿إِنَّمَا جَزَآءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ﴾

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger) until,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ﴾

(Allah is Of-Forgiving, Most Merciful,) "Were revealed about the idolators. Therefore, the Ayah decrees that, whoever among them repents before you apprehend them, then you have no right to punish them. This Ayah does not save a Muslim from punishment if he kills, causes mischief in the land or wages war against Allah and His Messenger and then joins rank with the disbelievers, before the Muslims are able to catch him. He will still be liable for punishment for the crimes he committed.'' Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i recorded that `Ikrimah said that Ibn `Abbas said that the Ayah,

﴿إِنَّمَا جَزَآءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ فَسَاداً﴾

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land...) "Was revealed concerning the idolators, those among them who repent before being apprehended, they will still be liable for punishment for the crimes they committed.'' The correct opinion is that this Ayah is general in meaning and includes the idolators and all others who commit the types of crimes the Ayah mentioned. Al-Bukhari and Muslim recorded that Abu Qilabah `Abdullah bin Zayd Al-Jarmi, said that Anas bin Malik said, "Eight people of the `Ukl tribe came to the Messenger of Allah and gave him their pledge to follow Islam. Al-Madinah's climate did not suit them and they became sick and complained to Allah's Messenger . So he said,

«أَلَا تَخْرُجُونَ مَعَ رَاعِينَا فِي إِبِلِهِ، فَتُصِيبُوا مِنْ أَبْوَالِهَا وَأَلْبَانِهَا»

(Go with our shephard to be treated by the milk and urine of his camels.) So they went as directed, and after they drank from the camels' milk and urine, they became healthy, and they killed the shepherd and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured. He then ordered that their hands and feet be cut off (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron. Next, they were put in the sun until they died.'' This is the wording of Muslim. In another narration for this Hadith, it was mentioned that these people were from the tribes of `Ukl or `Uraynah. Another narration reported that these people were put in the Harrah area (of Al-Madinah), and when they asked for water, no water was given to them. Allah said,

﴿أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَـفٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ﴾

(they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas said about this Ayah, `He who takes up arms in Muslim land and spreads fear in the fairways and is captured, the Muslim Leader has the choice to either have him killed, crucified or cut off his hands and feet.'' Similar was said by Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Mujahid, `Ata', Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Ibrahim An-Nakha`i and Ad-Dahhak, as Abu Ja`far Ibn Jarir recorded. This view is supported by the fact that the word Aw (or), indicates a choice. As Allah said,

﴿فَجَزَآءٌ مِّثْلُ مَا قَتَلَ مِنَ النَّعَمِ يَحْكُمُ بِهِ ذَوَا عَدْلٍ مِّنْكُمْ هَدْياً بَـلِغَ الْكَعْبَةِ أَوْ كَفَّارَةٌ طَعَامُ مَسَـكِينَ أَو عَدْلُ ذلِكَ صِيَاماً﴾

(The penalty is an offering, brought to the Ka`bah, of an eatable animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or, for expiation, he should feed the poor, or its equivalent in fasting.)﴿5:95﴾ Allah said,

﴿فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضًا أَوْ بِهِ أَذًى مِّن رَّأْسِهِ فَفِدْيَةٌ مِّن صِيَامٍ أَوْ صَدَقَةٍ أَوْ نُسُكٍ﴾

(And whosoever of you is ill or has an ailment in his scalp (necessitating shaving), he must pay a ransom of either fasting or giving charity or offering a sacrifice.) and,

﴿فَكَفَّارَتُهُ إِطْعَامُ عَشَرَةِ مَسَـكِينَ مِنْ أَوْسَطِ مَا تُطْعِمُونَ أَهْلِيكُمْ أَوْ كِسْوَتُهُمْ أَوْ تَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ﴾

(...for its expiation feed ten of the poor, on a scale of the average of that with which you feed your own families, or clothe them, or free a slave.) All of these Ayat offer a choice, just as the Ayah above. As for Allah's statement,

﴿أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ﴾

(or be exiled from the land.) some said that it means, he is actively pursued until he is captured, and thus receives his prescribed punishment, or otherwise he escapes from the land of Islam, as Ibn Jarir recorded from Ibn `Abbas, Anas bin Malik, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ad-Dahhak, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Az-Zuhri, Al-Layth bin Sa`d and Malik bin Anas. Some said that the Ayah means these people are expelled to another land, or to another state by the Muslims authorities. Sa`id bin Jubayr, Abu Ash-Sha`tha', Al-Hasan, Az-Zuhri, Ad-Dahhak and Muqatil bin Hayyan said that he is expelled, but not outside of the land of Islam, while others said that he is to be imprisoned. Allah's statement,

﴿ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْىٌ فِى الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ﴾

(That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.) means, the punishment We prescribed, killing these aggressors, crucifying them, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or expelling them from the land is a disgrace for them among mankind in this life, along with the tremendous torment Allah has prepared for them in the Hereafter. This view supports the opinion that these Ayat were revealed about the idolators. As for Muslims, in his Sahih, Muslim recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said, "The Messenger of Allah took the same pledge from us that he also took from women: That we do not associate anything with Allah in worship, we do not steal, commit adultery, or kill our children, and that we do not spread falsehood about each other. He said that he who keeps this pledge, then his reward will be with Allah. He who falls into shortcomings and was punished, then this will be his expiation. And those whose errors were covered by Allah, then their matter is for Allah: If He wills, He will punish them and If He wills, He will pardon them.'' `Ali narrated that the Messenger of Allah said,

«مَنْ أَذْنَبَ ذَنْبًا فِي الدُّنْيَا فَعُوقِبَ بِهِ، فَاللهُ أَعْدَلُ مِنْ أَنْ يُثَنِّيَ عُقُوبَتَهُ عَلى عَبْدِهِ، وَمَنْ أَذْنَبَ ذَنْبًا فِي الدُّنْيَا فَسَتَرهُ اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَعَفَا عَنْهُ، فَاللهُ أَكْرَمُ مِنْ أَنْ يَعُودَ عَلَيْهِ فِي شَيْءٍ قَدْ عَفَا عَنْه»

(He who sins in this life and was punished for it, then Allah is far more just than to combine two punishments on His servant. He who commits an error in this life and Allah hides this error and pardons him, then Allah is far more generous than to punish the servant for something that He has already pardoned.) iRecorded by Ahmad, Ibn Majah and At-Tirmidhi who said, "Hasan Gharib.''Al-Hafiz Ad-Daraqutni was asked about this Hadith, and he said that it was related to the Prophet in some narrations, and it was related to the Companions in others, and that this narration from the Prophet is Sahih. Ibn Jarir commented on Allah's statement,

﴿ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْىٌ فِى الدُّنْيَا﴾

(That is their disgrace in this world,) "Meaning, shame, humiliation, punishment, contempt and torment in this life, before the Hereafter,

﴿وَلَهُمْ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ﴾

(and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.) if they do not repent from these errors until death overcomes them. In this case, they will be stricken by the punishment that We prescribed for them in this life and the torment that We prepared for them therein,

﴿عَذَابٌ عظِيمٌ﴾ (a great torment) in the Fire of Jahannam.''


As can be seen, it is very clear what mischief is in Arabic. There is no loophole as you would like to believe.

[Z-Blade]

And since you don't like to believe things without proof, what convinced you of this? Some video on youtube?


Obviously I don't know this for a fact. However, it is most likely due to the events and the results after the attack. Also, why all the secretiveness and the cover-ups? Why not allow public investigations and inquiries into it? Completely open that is.

Even a tape which completely recorded the event of the "plane" hitting the pentagon in a nearby petrol station was taken away by the secret agents (CIA/FBI) of the government. They could easily present this as evidence against the culprits they are accusing, yet this has not been shown to ANYONE. Also, why was the debris of the plain covered up? etc. etc.


OK, that's the whole point. It depends on whether the attackers considered the targets to be legitimate. You made it sound like suicide was totally against Islam and therefore it would be highly unlikely that Muslim would do it.

But it turns out, that's not true is it? It depends. So if some Muslims could be convinced that the US Military command headquarters and/or one of its financial centers are legitimate targets, then what?

I don't know if suicide bombing is allowed. In fact, I believe it's haram. However, I'm just giving my thoughts on why others might do it.

I don't see what's wrong with attacking those who are aiding the enemy forces as strategical targets. Illegitemate targets would be those who are non-combatants and they are not causing harm to you or not helping to cause harm to you in anyway.

[Mace]

Even a tape which completely recorded the event of the "plane" hitting the pentagon in a nearby petrol station was taken away by the secret agents (CIA/FBI) of the government. They could easily present this as evidence against the culprits they are accusing, yet this has not been shown to ANYONE. Also, why was the debris of the plain covered up? etc. etc.


So what is your source on this?

And why didn't these "secret agents" visit my home and the homes of the thousands of other people on the highways all around the pentagon? Why am I not at Gitmo?

Look at the Pentagon on Google Earth. Look at how many roads are around there. Imagine how many people were on those roads at that time of morning. What happened to all of them?

[Mace]

I don't see what's wrong with attacking those who are aiding the enemy forces as strategical targets. Illegitemate targets would be those who are non-combatants and they are not causing harm to you or not helping to cause harm to you in anyway.

OK, so would you at least concede that this reasoning could be used to justify an attack against the US military headquarters and one our key financial centers?

And further, that if Muslims were attacking these targets, and the only feasible way they could think of involved a suicide attack, then you can see how would this would be at least plausible.

[Z-Blade]

OK, so would you at least concede that this reasoning could be used to justify an attack against the US military headquarters and one our key financial centers?

And further, that if Muslims were attacking these targets, and the only feasible way they could think of involved a suicide attack, then you can see how would this would be at least plausible.

No, the World Trade Centre was not a legitimate target. They were not helping the military or oppressors of Muslim and Islam. The Pentagon I believe was not an illegal target. But that's beside the point. CLEAR evidence please for who did it.


Look at the Pentagon on Google Earth. Look at how many roads are around there. Imagine how many people were on those roads at that time of morning. What happened to all of them?


My thoughts exactly. Where are the eye-witness testimonies to show what the attack was?

[Mace]

My thoughts exactly. Where are the eye-witness testimonies to show what the attack was?

Well if we believe the story that this was a conspiracy and a missile attack, then the conspirators would have had to round up all of us witnesses, yes? Why didnt' that happen?

Particularly since I'm a pilot (and the government knows that), wouldn't I have been a threat to the grand conspiracy?

There were literally hundreds of witnesses on the local news, in our local offices, on the highway itself when we all stopped in our tracks. I still run into people who were there that day. There are a few in my office alone. 3 pilots, in fact. None of this stuff makes it into conspiracy theorist videos. I wonder why? Perhaps because they are trying to string together a point however they can?

It's like those stupid videos that said Apollo was fake. The ones that spend minutes talking about escape trajectory from the moon without realizing (1) the lower section of the lander never left the moon and (2) NO PART of the lander ever left the moon's gravity.

[Z-Blade]

Well if we believe the story that this was a conspiracy and a missile attack, then the conspirators would have had to round up all of us witnesses, yes? Why didnt' that happen?

Particularly since I'm a pilot (and the government knows that), wouldn't I have been a threat to the grand conspiracy?

There were literally hundreds of witnesses on the local news, in our local offices, on the highway itself when we all stopped in our tracks. I still run into people who were there that day. There are a few in my office alone. 3 pilots, in fact. None of this stuff makes it into conspiracy theorist videos. I wonder why? Perhaps because they are trying to string together a point however they can?


The videos do show eye-witness accounts by giving reports of reporters there. Basically, what the reporters agree upon is it's not the plane the government wants you to believe it is. It's described differently to a passenger plane.

I forgot exactly what they say.

PS So did you see the plane? If not, what's the point of asking you?! :/

[Mace]

The videos do show eye-witness accounts by giving reports of reporters there. Basically, what the reporters agree upon is it's not the plane the government wants you to believe it is. It's described differently to a passenger plane.

I forgot exactly what they say.

PS So did you see the plane? If not, what's the point of asking you?! :/

How many witnesses? How many of them were pilots?

Why am I not in their videos? Or any of the other witnesses I know?

You know why I'm not in their videos? It's because I saw the plane. So I would be an unfortunate wrench in their works, wouldn't I?

But you didn't answer my other question. If you believe certain element conspired to actually murder 3,000 of our own people, why on earth would they allow the witnesses to live? Isn't that taking a huge risk?

[Mace]

The videos do show eye-witness accounts by giving reports of reporters there. Basically, what the reporters agree upon is it's not the plane the government wants you to believe it is. It's described differently to a passenger plane.

I forgot exactly what they say.

PS So did you see the plane? If not, what's the point of asking you?! :/

Of course I did. So did my co-workers. So did the other shocked people around me that day. So did other people I've met since then. Nobody, except my Muslim friends and family, in this town believes this stuff about the Pentagon. Because we all know people who were around the Pentagon that day.

[Z-Blade]

But you didn't answer my other question. If you believe certain element conspired to actually murder 3,000 of our own people, why on earth would they allow the witnesses to live? Isn't that taking a huge risk?

I don't see how people seeing a plane makes it dangerous to their (government's) conspiracy? Why would they have to kill you off for that reason? You make no sense. Think about what you say.

So, can you describe the plane to me please? I would like to know how it looked.

[Mace]

I don't see how people seeing a plane makes it dangerous to their (government's) conspiracy? Why would they have to kill you off for that reason? You make no sense. Think about what you say.

So, can you describe the plane to me please? I would like to know how it looked.

No, you're not understanding me. I'm saying imagine that there was no plane. Imagine that the conspiracy theories were true.

In that case, we would not have seen a plane. We would have seen a missile. Or we would have seen nothing at all, just an unexplained explosion.

In that case, in the imaginary case that the conspiracy theorists talk about, it would have been foolish for the government to allow witnesses. Because thousands of us could have exposed the fraud.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

[Z-Blade]

No, you're not understanding me. I'm saying imagine that there was no plane. Imagine that the conspiracy theories were true.

In that case, we would not have seen a plane. We would have seen a missile. Or we would have seen nothing at all, just an unexplained explosion.

In that case, in the imaginary case that the conspiracy theorists talk about, it would have been foolish for the government to allow witnesses. Because thousands of us could have exposed the fraud.

Do you understand what I'm saying now?

Duh, I got that part. I know they can't be 100% correct, as they don't have all the hard facts. But other than that, they definitely got the gist of it correct in my opinion, and the opinions of many more.

Also, I never said I believed every part of the documentaries. But, perhaps most of it.

So, can you tell me now how the plane looked like...?!

[Mace]

Duh, I got that part. I know they can't be 100% correct, as they don't have all the hard facts. But other than that, they definitely got the gist of it correct in my opinion, and the opinions of many more.

Also, I never said I believed all of the documentaries. But, perhaps most of it.

So, can you tell me now how the plane looked like...?!

Ok, so now that you understand what I was saying, please explain if there was no plane, why would the government have allowed witnesses? Why not stage the attack at night or something where it may have been easier to conceal?

What I first noticed was a commercial jet flying in a very unusual pattern. I've flown around here for years and so I know all the normal traffic patterns.

The next thing I remember a few minutes later was it flying low back towards the Pentagon. I was at it's 9 or 10 o'clock or so from the pilot's perspective. And lower than the plane, so I saw underside and I could see it was a 2 or 3 engine plane. (I couldn't really see the tail from where I was.) By then people were already slamming on their brakes on the road. Then the impact.

[Mace]

Duh, I got that part. I know they can't be 100% correct, as they don't have all the hard facts. But other than that, they definitely got the gist of it correct in my opinion, and the opinions of many more.

Also, I never said I believed every part of the documentaries. But, perhaps most of it.



So you don't believe they got all the hard facts. And you don't even remember exactly what those witnesses said. And yet you think they got the gist right?

How is that?

[THHuxley]

I don't exactly know their strategy, however, they are definitely building more bases. Why is there hardly any reconstruction taking placing? Because they are busy building their own bases. One of the reasons would obviously be to secure the oil for themselves. And any other resources.
Actually, having a nephew in Iraq now and several dozen West Point classmates, I can assure you that a huge amount of rebuilding is being done. However, only in Kurdistan are those efforts not being quickly destroyed again by the insurgents.

It really is a lot like trying to push a rope uphill. You Muslims can destroy faster than we can rebuild.

They tried to use 9/11 as an excuse first of all. However, it backfired since the people didn't buy it and I also saw a documentary about the victims of 9/11 and how Bush wanted their support for attacking Iraq but they refused.
Exactly as I said. It was a reason to attack Afghanistan, but not an excuse for attacking Iraq at all.

What do they appear to be? All we have is some screenshots of Asian men with rucksacks, who may or may not be Muslim. And they are blamed for the bombing. How can you buy such hogwash?
Because their bodies (what was left of them) and their rucksacks (what were left of them) were found, and they were identified by DNA and their families.

It's a good thing we don't just rely on "screenshots" for criminal investigations.

Who said "my brothers" were involved at all?
Hey, you don't consider Muslims to be your brothers, I apologize for making that assumption.

It just not my opinion, but of many others. And slowly but surely more and more people realise that we don't have all the answers and there is so much cover-up to cause suspicion. So slowly this is becoming the majority view, if not already. Except for a few naive people such as yourself.
When was the last time a majority of amateurs counted more than the actual evidence as reviewed by experts? Duh.

The answer should be simple: traitors and hypocrites (they were never really Muslim, or they wanted power for themselves and became corrupt). Selfish political motives are always a problem in any community.
Okay. Muslim traitors and hypocrites.

I don't see how the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Centre would make Muslims want to overthrow the Saudis? Or are you saying he calculated the after effects for that to happen? Even then, Saudi Arabia played no part in oppressing the Muslims (or no direct part at least). So why would they want to do that (Muslims overthrow Saudis)?
OBL's primary objective for years has been the overthrow of the House of Saud. And yes, he calculated that his attacks would elicit an American response that so horrified the Muslim world, they would rise up to replace the leaders of most of the Arab states, starting with Saudi Arabia.

He was right about horrifying the Muslim world. The rest of his plan does not appear to have gone as well.

Because they are just a scapegoat and they never did it. Too many gains for the West and too many losses for the Muslims for them to have done it.
Too bad that a more prosaic explanation is that they did it, but it just didn’t work out the way they planned.

Here is the meaning of mischief, which is specific in Arabic and heavy sin (such as rape, mass killing, instigating others to murder, driving people out of their homes unjustly, rebelling and treason etc.) and not so broad nor anything light like in English.
You don't call that broad?

Even the "etc." in your definition here is a huge loophole.

That ayaa pretty much gives any Muslim carte blanche to kill anybody for any reason at all. But why are you arguing with me?

You should be arguing with your fellow Muslims.

[Lost_Princess]

ill guees well never know with how much info weve been given and how much has been hiden for all i know everyones a liar because only god knows and maybe the american government too :)

[Z-Blade]

Ok, so now that you understand what I was saying, please explain if there was no plane, why would the government have allowed witnesses? Why not stage the attack at night or something where it may have been easier to conceal?

What I first noticed was a commercial jet flying in a very unusual pattern. I've flown around here for years and so I know all the normal traffic patterns.

The next thing I remember a few minutes later was it flying low back towards the Pentagon. I was at it's 9 or 10 o'clock or so from the pilot's perspective. And lower than the plane, so I saw underside and I could see it was a 2 or 3 engine plane. (I couldn't really see the tail from where I was.) By then people were already slamming on their brakes on the road. Then the impact.

Then I guess the documentary got this part wrong, if what you say is true.


So you don't believe they got all the hard facts. And you don't even remember exactly what those witnesses said. And yet you think they got the gist right?

How is that?


I said I don't remember what the witnesses for the Pentagon attack said exactly. But they did not describe a passenger plane is what I can remember.

What I meant by what they got the gist right is the documentary as a whole is correct in saying this was an inside job.

[THHuxley]

What I meant by what they got the gist right is the documentary as a whole is correct in saying this was an inside job.
And again... you would know that how? Exactly?

[Z-Blade]

Because their bodies (what was left of them) and their rucksacks (what were left of them) were found, and they were identified by DNA and their families.

It's a good thing we don't just rely on "screenshots" for criminal investigations.


Well, if you think about it, they could easily also have been victims including all the other innocent people in there. There is still no hard evidence to show they did it.

Hey, you don't consider Muslims to be your brothers, I apologize for making that assumption.

I meant my Muslim brothers are not involved by that question!! :rolleyes:

When was the last time a majority of amateurs counted more than the actual evidence as reviewed by experts? Duh.

What evidence? Who are these so-called experts?! ;o There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. For example, why doesn't the government allow there to be a public inquiry? I've seen the victims asking and campaigning over and over for this, but it's not being done.


Okay. Muslim traitors and hypocrites.


Which would mean they were never really Muslims (they were like spies) or they became apostates and renegades, causing mayhem and destruction.


OBL's primary objective for years has been the overthrow of the House of Saud. And yes, he calculated that his attacks would elicit an American response that so horrified the Muslim world, they would rise up to replace the leaders of most of the Arab states, starting with Saudi Arabia.

He was right about horrifying the Muslim world. The rest of his plan does not appear to have gone as well.


I understand that he would want to overthrow the Saudis, just as any good Muslim would. However, where are you getting this information that that was the reason for his attack and his masterplan?!


Too bad that a more prosaic explanation is that they did it, but it just didn’t work out the way they planned.


Sure, whatever you believe :')


You don't call that broad?

Even the "etc." in your definition here is a huge loophole.


You need to look at the Arabic word to understand that mischief is a very bad translation as we all see it as being something slight or little. So why would someone be allowed to be killed for doing mischievious (AKA basically bad behaviour) things? Because the meaning here is something like this:

2 maleficence (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/maleficence), mischief, balefulness (http://www.wordreference.com/definition/balefulness)
the quality or nature of being harmful or evil

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/mischief

And this:

mis·chief (mĭs'chĭf)
n.
Damage, destruction, or injury caused by a specific person or thing

http://www.answers.com/topic/mischief

Also, we have this:

"Al- Quran 5:32
http://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gifhttp://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gif http://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gifhttp://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gif http://emuslim.com/images/FlowerT.gif “…if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people.” http://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gifhttp://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gif http://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gifhttp://emuslim.com/images/TopFlowersT.gif

Such is the value of a single human life, that the Quran equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity. Thus, the Quran prohibits homicide in clear terms. The taking of a criminal’s life by the state in order to administer justice is required to uphold the rule of law, and the peace and security of the society. Only a proper and competent court can decide whether an individual has forfeited his right to life by disregarding the right to life and peace of other human beings.

Islam enjoins upon all Muslims to work actively to maintain the balance in which God created everything. Terrorizing the civilian population can never be termed as jihad and can never be reconciled with the teachings of Islam."

http://emuslim.com/IslamAgainstVoilence.asp

Which goes to show, mischief here is talking about big-time criminals.


That ayaa pretty much gives any Muslim carte blanche to kill anybody for any reason at all. But why are you arguing with me?

You should be arguing with your fellow Muslims.

The word al-mufasideen is actually much stronger than the translation of "Mischief," by the translator. The Arabic word conveys the stronger idea of corruption, decay, and decomposition.

In the sense of the ayat, it refers to criminals.

[Z-Blade]

And again... you would know that how? Exactly?

I would know from the evidence presented as opposed to the West's evidence showing Osama Bin Laden did it (rofl).

[THHuxley]

What evidence? Who are these so-called experts?! ;o There are still a lot of questions that need to be answered. For example, why doesn't the government allow there to be a public inquiry? I've seen the victims asking and campaigning over and over for this, but it's not being done.
What do you mean? There have been several public inquiries. I've read at least two of them, i.e. the 9/11 Commission report and the NIST draft analysis of the WTC collapses.

Have you actually read either of them? Or are you still depending on YouTube for your opinions?

What exactly are the "questions" that need to be answered that have not been? Just because you are not really interested in the answers does not mean they do not exist and have not been provided.

Which would mean they were never really Muslims (they were like spies) or they became apostates and renegades, causing mayhem and destruction.
Or they were Muslims, but merely with a different interpretation of “mischief” than yours.

I understand that he would want to overthrow the Saudis, just as any good Muslim would. However, where are you getting this information that that was the reason for his attack and his masterplan?!
For heavens sake, Z-Blade! He had been announcing his intentions publicly for years before the 9/11 attacks. There are at least three published interviews with him from before 9/11 where he outlines his goals and the reasons behind them. The overthrow of the Saudi Royals had been his first priority for years.

Sure, whatever you believe.
And I believe what the evidence leads me to believe. Not what some talking heads on YouTube tell me to believe.

Mischief/corruption includes the following concepts:

-Causing division among the believers; Muslims abandoning the believers; Muslims not being good to (Muslim) relatives; severing ties of kinship with fellow Muslims
.
-Severing ties (of belief, obedience) with Allah, Mohammad, Islam; severing what Allah has ordered to be joined; breaking Allah's covenant (i.e., rejecting Islam, Koran, Mohammad); ignoring Allah's covenant and thus breaking it; breaking Allah's covenant after ratifying it.

-Disbelief; idolatry; associating partners with Allah; calling for worship of other than Allah; arrogant/defiant belief in a religion other than Islam; making disbelief manifest; the appearance of polytheism (in the society), turning away from or shunning (Islamic) faith; denying Allah's signs, tokens, verses, etc.; hypocrisy.

-Opposition to Islam, impeding faith (in Islam), hindering people from the path of Allah, preventing people from the religion of Mohammad and the Qur'an, being astray and leading others astray, compelling others to change their (Islamic) religion, ordering others to disobey Allah.

-Disbelief gaining power and Islam becoming weak. (Hypocritical Muslims) trying to make peace with the People of the Book (in cases where this would weaken Islam).

-Disobedience to Allah, Mohammad, Islam; transgression, rebellion, neglecting to forbid what Allah forbids, degeneracy.

-Tyranny, injustice, killing, terrorizing, robbing and highway robbery (or waylaying, ambushing), belligerence, fighting, all kinds of crimes and sins, great crimes and sins.

-Spreading slander, defrauding.

-Illegal sexual intercourse.

-Evil.

The sample of verses and their respective tafsirs from which the above words and phrases were obtained are as follows (not in order): 27:14, 17:4, 47:22, 8:73, 3:63, 40:26, 7:74, 7:56, 7:86, 7:103, 89:12, 5:64, 29:36, 29:30, 26:183, 28:77, 28:4, 10:91, 11:116, 13:25, 16:88, 2:11-13, 2:27.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Archemedez/KillingInKoran.htm
And how do you imagine this list helps your position.

It sounds to me by reading it that it essentially condemns to death every non-Muslim on the planet, one way or another.

Like I said… a loophole big enough to fly a 767 through.

[THHuxley]

I would know from the evidence presented as opposed to the West's evidence showing Osama Bin Laden did it.
And yet, the actual evidence you "present" does not stand up to scrutiny.

So, it would appear you "know nothing" about the subject one way or the other.

[Z-Blade]

What do you mean? There have been several public inquiries. I've read at least two of them, i.e. the 9/11 Commission report and the NIST draft analysis of the WTC collapses.

Have you actually read either of them? Or are you still depending on YouTube for your opinions?

What exactly are the "questions" that need to be answered that have not been? Just because you are not really interested in the answers does not mean they do not exist and have not been provided.

I was talking about the 7/7 bombings, not 9/11.

Or they were Muslims, but merely with a different interpretation of “mischief” than yours.

No, it wasn't based around that. It had nothing to do with the interpretation of mischief. They create their own set of beliefs, which has nothing to do with Islam. They base it around political motives more than anything.

For heavens sake, Z-Blade! He had been announcing his intentions publicly for years before the 9/11 attacks. There are at least three published interviews with him from before 9/11 where he outlines his goals and the reasons behind them. The overthrow of the Saudi Royals had been his first priority for years.

I know, but what makes you believe this attack had anything to do with that plan?


And I believe what the evidence leads me to believe. Not what some talking heads on YouTube tell me to believe.


Same here. I never used YouTube, it's funny you keep mentioning it :')


And how do you imagine this list helps your position.

It sounds to me by reading it that it essentially condemns to death every non-Muslim on the planet, one way or another.

Like I said… a loophole big enough to fly a 767 through.

If you would look, I removed that list from my post afterwards, since it has nothing to do with the ayat we are talking about. But too bad you saw it before I edited, you stalker!

You must look at those ayah he makes reference to to understand why this mischief is different for each situation.

Anyway, I don't know whether that site is reliable and I don't even know if that list was made up by a scholar. It's best to take Ibn Kathir's definition for it and other scholars who are on True Islam.

The other 2 paragraphs under the ayat that I gave explained it nicely. So does this:

"The values of the Qur'an hold a Muslim responsible for treating all people, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, kindly and justly, protecting the needy and the innocent and preventing the "dissemination of mischief". Mischief comprises all forms of anarchy and terror that remove security, comfort and peace. As God says in a verse,

"God does not love mischief makers". (Surat al-Qasas: 77)."

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=rarticle&raid=160


The word mischief here is "fasad" in arabic and this has a very strong meaning, and in terms of the ayat it means crimes that are pure evil.

You can find out more about it here, with an excerpt:

"The Qur'anic term for corruption is al-Fasad. It means spoiling the order, disturbing the balance of justice by greed, self-interest, deception and double talk. The Qur'an has used this word about 50 times. Al-Fasad could be in morals, in values, in social system, in family system, in educational system, in economics, in politics or in human relations in general.

Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts. Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.

وَلَوِ اتَّبَعَ الْحَقُّ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ لَفَسَدَتِ السَّمَوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ وَمَنْ فِيهِنَّ بَلْ أَتَيْنَاهُمْ بِذِكْرِهِمْ فَهُمْ عَنْ ذِكْرِهِمْ مُعْرِضُونَ(المؤمنون 71)

If the Truth had been in accord with their desires, truly the heavens and the earth, and all beings therein would have been in confusion and corruption! Nay, We have sent them their admonition, but they turn away from their admonition.
(Al-Mu'minun 23:71)"

http://www.isna.net/services/library/khutbahs/as-fasad.html

[THHuxley]

"The Qur'anic term for corruption is al-Fasad. It means spoiling the order, disturbing the balance of justice by greed, self-interest, deception and double talk. The Qur'an has used this word about 50 times. Al-Fasad could be in morals, in values, in social system, in family system, in educational system, in economics, in politics or in human relations in general.

Al-Fasad appears when people follow their lusts and vain desires, when they try to twist the truth and distort the facts. Instead of following the Truth and the Guidance from their Lord and Creator, they ignore and turn away from His message.
And this definition is so broad that it pretty much gives Muslims permission to murder anybody they want, and blame it on "Corruption."

[Z-Blade]

And this definition is so broad that it pretty much gives Muslims permission to murder anybody they want, and blame it on "mischief."

The "mischief" of the ayat under discussion comes under political/social/human relations categories which means then that we are talking about evil crimes. Basically, the mischief here is terrorism/rebellion and treason and things that are similar to that, in the atmosphere of an Islamic State.

Muslims are not allowed to take the law into their own hands and kill any Tom, **** and Harry, we need the permission of the leaders first.

For example, I'm sure we would be allowed to kill Bush or Blair (even without an Islamic State). And the Israeli president. And so forth.

[Mace]

For example, I'm sure we would be allowed to kill Bush or Blair (even without an Islamic State). And the Israeli president. And so forth.

:rubeyes: You have permission from your leaders to do that?

[MangoChutney]

:rubeyes: You have permission from your leaders to do that?

we don't have any leaders.

[nami]

And with that, you are convinced this is true? Do you believe everything you remember reading on the Internet once?

i dont see why not, the internet is 100% more likely to show the truth than zionist controlled media in the uk and usa. there is some truth in the media in uk, but the media in the usa is a pure lie. i can't believe most americans have been fooled by it so easily. says a lot about the average american.

if you don't believe me, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT9el69vcUM

[Mace]

i dont see why not, the internet is 100% more likely to show the truth than zionist controlled media in the uk and usa. there is some truth in the media in uk, but the media in the usa is a pure lie. i can't believe most americans have been fooled by it so easily. says a lot about the average american.

if you don't believe me, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT9el69vcUM

But you can find almost anything you want to find on the internet. You can find someone saying A. You can find B. You can find Not A, Not B.

So what do you believe on the internet? After all there are plenty of pro-American sites. There are plenty of anti-Islam sites. Clearly you wouldn't believe those sites. So do you just believe whatever you happen to agree with?

[nami]

But you can find almost anything you want to find on the internet. You can find someone saying A. You can find B. You can find Not A, Not B.

So what do you believe on the internet? After all there are plenty of pro-American sites. There are plenty of anti-Islam sites. Clearly you wouldn't believe those sites. So do you just believe whatever you happen to agree with?

i just find it strange how certain things appear on the internet and then somehow, for some reason disappear forever.

control? is someone monitoring the internet and removing certain truths? which they dont want the world too see? this is very difficult sometimes as there is no overall control of the internet and some info is able to get to a few people before its removed.

[Z-Blade]

:rubeyes: You have permission from your leaders to do that?

We can obtain fatwas from trusted scholars to ensure this is allowed. However, I'm pretty sure it is allowed.

But I don't think there is any point taking them out, as they will be easily replaced and possibly by someone worse (as the pattern goes). I think there are even more powerful and evil people behind the scenes pulling the strings... (possibly!).