PDA

View Full Version : uncle marrying neice...permissible...



ARiSagirl
17-06-10, 05:16 AM
i always thought an uncle was considered a mehram and couldnt marry his neice but lets say a man married his cousin and then wanted to marry her niece which is actually his own niece too? then wouldnt that be unpermissible since the girl would marry her aunts husband which is her uncle? imagine being a young sister living in the same roof of your aunt and being married to your uncle? this is haraam right?
isint it only permissble if its your long-distance niece?

MuslimSoljah
17-06-10, 08:07 AM
That is not permissble and I believe it comes under incest.

Muslimah81
17-06-10, 08:14 AM
when you say she is his neice do you mean he is her mothers/fathers brother or is he just her uncle by marriage?

i got a bit lost....

MaverikAJ
17-06-10, 08:16 AM
i always thought an uncle was considered a mehram and couldnt marry his neice but lets say a man married his cousin and then wanted to marry her niece which is actually his own niece too? then wouldnt that be unpermissible since the girl would marry her aunts husband which is her uncle? imagine being a young sister living in the same roof of your aunt and being married to your uncle? this is haraam right?
isint it only permissble if its your long-distance niece?

Why do you ask?

As for the anwser it is forbidden to marry BOTH at the same time but if the man divorces his wife then he can mary her niece.

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 08:32 AM
If the man is the girl's biological uncle (mother's brother or father's brother) he is her mahram, and she can't marry him, ever - that would be incest. If the man is not related to the girl, but is married to her biological aunt (mother's sister or father's sister) then he is not her mahram. She can't marry him while he is still married to her aunt, because it's forbidden for a man to be married an aunt and her niece at the same time. It doesn't matter if they live together or not - it's still haram. However, if he divorces her aunt, or her aunt dies, then it's permissible for them to marry.

The niece of his cousin wouldn't be his own niece, unless his brother is married to his wife's sister or something like that.

,, -alwaysbeme!
17-06-10, 08:56 AM
The age gap would be huge?

~TwinklingStar~
17-06-10, 10:40 AM
“Forbidden to you (for marriage) are: your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father’s sisters, your mother’s sisters, your brother’s daughters, your sister’s daughters, your foster mothers who gave you suck, your foster milk suckling sisters, your wives’ mothers, your stepdaughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom you have gone in — but there is no sin on you if you have not gone in them (to marry their daughters), — the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins, and two sisters in wedlock at the same time, except for what has already passed; verily, Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[Al-Nisa 4:23]

***

A man married a woman. As long as he remains married to her, he cannot marry her maternal and paternal aunts and nieces.

If the relationship between two women is such that if we had to regard one of them as a man, their nikâh will not be valid, then such two women cannot marry a person at the same time. When one of them passes away or one of them is divorced and completes her iddah , only then will it be permissible for the person to marry the other woman.

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:51 AM
i always thought an uncle was considered a mehram and couldnt marry his neice but lets say a man married his cousin and then wanted to marry her niece which is actually his own niece too? then wouldnt that be unpermissible since the girl would marry her aunts husband which is her uncle? imagine being a young sister living in the same roof of your aunt and being married to your uncle? this is haraam right?
isint it only permissble if its your long-distance niece?

What is confusing is the terms used by Asians combined with English terms like Cousin.

Take Ali (ra) and Fatima (ra).
So Ali (ra) married his first Paternal Cousin's Daughter - this is permissable.

What is not permissable is to to combine two sisters and the Fuqaha have agreed that it is also not permissable to combine in mariage a woman and her Paternal or Maternal Aunt.

These relatives become 'Temporary Mahram's'

So they are forbidden in marriage to you whilst you are still married to their relative but if you divorce the relative you can marry them.
Temporary Mahram does not have the same status as permanant Mahram as Hijab still needs to be observed and you cannot be in seclusion with a temporary mahram.

I hope this is clear

MaverikAJ
17-06-10, 10:57 AM
What is confusing is the terms used by Asians combined with English terms like Cousin.

Take Ali (ra) and Fatima (ra).
So Ali (ra) married his first Paternal Cousin's Daughter - this is permissable.

What is not permissable is to to combine two sisters and the Fuqaha have agreed that it is also not permissable to combine in mariage a woman and her Paternal or Maternal Aunt.

These relatives become 'Temporary Mahram's'

So they are forbidden in marriage to you whilst you are still married to their relative but if you divorce the relative you can marry them.
Temporary Mahram does not have the same status as permanant Mahram as Hijab still needs to be observed and you cannot be in seclusion with a temporary mahram.

I hope this is clear

Not only using English terms but completely create a new relationship. OP Uncle is married to his own cousin which is fine. But can he marry his wife's niece.

You have to understand that the niece is only the niece of his wife not his. The problem with many muslims i that they dont understand this and this is where mistakes happen like mixing with non mahrem (whom by mistake they consider mahrem)

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:59 AM
Not only using English terms but completely create a new relationship. OP Uncle is married to his own cousin which is fine. But can he marry his wife's niece.

You have to understand that the niece is only the niece of his wife not his. The problem with many muslims i that they dont understand this and this is where mistakes happen like mixing with non mahrem (whom by mistake they consider mahrem)

Depends what the niece is, if it is his wifes blood brother /sister's child then they are forbidden to marry but have the status of temporary Mahram as I explained above.

ARiSagirl
17-06-10, 11:01 AM
yes it's very clear, thank you!

MaverikAJ
17-06-10, 11:03 AM
Depends what the niece is, if it is his wifes blood brother /sister's child then they are forbidden to marry but have the status of temporary Mahram as I explained above.

Yeah thats what I meant it creates a temporary mahram relationship, but most people take it as permanent even when the original relationship has ended.

Abboudy
17-06-10, 06:25 PM
I just don't understand why someone would do that anyways. Lets forget if its permissible or not and just focus on WHY someone would do that? It just doesn't make any sense to me..

MaverikAJ
17-06-10, 06:33 PM
I just don't understand why someone would do that anyways. Lets forget if its permissible or not and just focus on WHY someone would do that? It just doesn't make any sense to me..

Marrying your cousin is illegal in some Kuffar Countries. If its allowed in Shariah then we do not question the motive. I dont think you need to worry.

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 06:55 PM
I just don't understand why someone would do that anyways. Lets forget if its permissible or not and just focus on WHY someone would do that? It just doesn't make any sense to me..

In cultures where young marriages and large families are common, it's not unusual for someone to have aunts and uncles close to their own age, or even younger. If someone is widowed or even divorced under certain circumstances, remarriage within their former spouse's extended family isn't unusual either, especially if there are children involved. That's even more true if they're cousins or something to begin with. I can see how it might happen, if they like each other.

Umm_Adam_
17-06-10, 07:06 PM
i always thought an uncle was considered a mehram and couldnt marry his neice but lets say a man married his cousin and then wanted to marry her niece which is actually his own niece too? then wouldnt that be unpermissible since the girl would marry her aunts husband which is her uncle? imagine being a young sister living in the same roof of your aunt and being married to your uncle? this is haraam right?
isint it only permissble if its your long-distance niece?



Yuck :S

MaverikAJ
17-06-10, 07:11 PM
Yuck :S

Whats Yuck?

I think the OP is a little confusing. Of course you cannot mary your own (direct)niece, but can marry your wife's niece after divorce or death of wife but not at the same time.

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 07:49 PM
Suppose Niece and Aunt are the same age - Niece's mother is Aunt's much older sister. Suppose they grew up together, more like sisters, and then suppose that Aunt married a great guy and had a few kids. Niece and Aunt continue their close friendship, and Niece loves Aunt's kids as if they were her own. Niece also likes and respects Aunt's husband within the bounds of shari'ah, and knows him to be an excellent husband and father, and a good Muslim, from what she's observed, and from what Aunt has told her. Now suppose that Aunt dies tragically, leaving her husband and children. Niece knows Aunt's husband, likes him, and already has a loving relationship with his children. Aunt's husband knows Niece, remembers that Aunt has always spoken highly of her, and appreciates the relationship Niece has with his children - he knows he'll need to remarry at some point, and he's reluctant to put the children in the care of someone who's a stranger to them after they've lost their mother. If Niece and Aunt's (former) husband like each other, there's nothing wrong with them marrying - no 'yuck' necessary. :)

naila-k
17-06-10, 07:55 PM
that story is kinda sweet :) in some cultures it is normal if a womens husband dies she marries his brother...

uncle umar
17-06-10, 09:02 PM
wow i read the title and i though for a sec you were talking about me but then i re-read the title.

totaly off topic im sorry.

RaineR
17-06-10, 09:09 PM
its not permissible, becuz if my aunt (paternal or maternal ) was married to this guy, I cant marry him at all (obv not as a second wife cuz thats also not allowed) even is she is divorced, still its a nono

RaineR
17-06-10, 09:16 PM
even if its long distance niece, its better not to go down that route

RaineR
17-06-10, 09:17 PM
wow i read the title and i though for a sec you were talking about me but then i re-read the title.

totaly off topic im sorry.

lol
yes its defo offtopic :torture:

RaineR
17-06-10, 09:19 PM
wow i read the title and i though for a sec you were talking about me but then i re-read the title.

totaly off topic im sorry.

oopsy
double

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 09:51 PM
even if its long distance niece, its better not to go down that route

What about Fatima (ra) and Ali (ra)?

Was that a nono?

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 09:53 PM
If she is divorced it is permissable, even if it was the sister it is permissable.
Please be careful not to change what Allah (swt) has allowed.

RaineR
17-06-10, 09:59 PM
If she is divorced it is permissable, even if it was the sister it is permissable.
Please be careful not to change what Allah (swt) has allowed.

are u sure? cuz from what I know, a girl cant marry her aunts ex husband.

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 10:08 PM
What about Fatima (ra) and Ali (ra)?

Was that a nono?

I thought they were cousins? Were they related by marriage, also? I have a headache trying to keep up with all the different family relationships in this topic.

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:10 PM
Why can't she?
What is the reason for the prohibition?

The reason a man can't marry a woman whilst he is married to her aunt (or vice vera) is because the Ulema consider this the same as a man marrying two sisters.
This is a classical example of 'Qiyas' that is used as an example in Usool ul Fiqh.
It is clear that a man can marry a sister after he is no longer married to the first sister becasue of death or divorce.
So why would the niece be forbidden?

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:15 PM
I thought they were cousins? Were they related by marriage, also? I have a headache trying to keep up with all the different family relationships in this topic.

Cousins by the English definition. (I think they call it 2nd Cousin)

Ali (ra) Father (Abu Talib) was the Brother of Muhammed (saw)'s Father?

Understand?

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 10:20 PM
Cousins by the English definition. (I think they call it 2nd Cousin)

Ali (ra) Father (Abu Talib) was the Brother of Muhammed (saw)'s Father?

Understand?

Yeah, I just couldn't figure out what they had to do with marrying one's niece... never mind. :)

Asma-SE
17-06-10, 10:20 PM
What is a long distance niece? Your great niece? That's not the same as your second cousin...

And this thread isn't really about an uncle marrying his real niece - that would be disgusting.

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:24 PM
Yeah, I just couldn't figure out what they had to do with marrying one's niece... never mind. :)

Muhammad (saw) and Ali (ra) were 1st cousins.

By Asian standards they call the sons and daughters of their cousins nieces and nephews.
I think the OP was talking about 'niece' in this manner.

Allah know best

AbuIbraheem.
17-06-10, 10:28 PM
What is a long distance niece? Your great niece? That's not the same as your second cousin...

And this thread isn't really about an uncle marrying his real niece - that would be disgusting.

I think great niece would be third cousin the 'long distant' comes with 'removal ' which you get through marriage.

English is too hard, it would be better to stick to Arabic terms such as بنت أخ and بنت أخت as they are specific.

ابن عم = Paternal Uncle

And so on..

PurpleMuslimah
17-06-10, 10:30 PM
Muhammad (saw) and Ali (ra) were 1st cousins.

By Asian standards they call the sons and daughters of their cousins nieces and nephews.
I think the OP was talking about 'niece' in this manner.

Allah know best

I didn't know that about Asians - that explains a lot the confusion about who is and is not a mahram. JazakAllah khair.

islamz4lyf
05-09-11, 08:27 PM
i guess its permissible to marry someone who is your niece, who isn't a close relative......but how do you make your parents understand that?? because as far as i know I'm from a Asian background and many parents will not allow the their sons to do that.

Bint-Al-Islam
05-09-11, 08:40 PM
either way you look at, biological or not, im just lost for words.

neelu
05-09-11, 09:31 PM
From an Islamic perspective, the girl would only be a real niece if she was his brother/sister's daughter- in which case she would be a mahram and marriage to her would be haraam.

It is also haraam for a man to be married to two women at the same time who are kin relatives (ie sisters, or mother daughter, or aunty niece). So in the case of the OP it would be haraam for a man to remain married to this woman AND seek to marry the woman's niece. The only way he could marry the niece is if he divorces his wife or if his wife dies- he cannot be married to both his wife and her niece at the same time.

The thing is though, in some cultures, they use metaphorical terms which confuses things- like 'cousin brother'. A cousin is non mahram and should not be treated as a mahram brother. Similarly, people often refer to a first cousin's daughter as their own niece, whereas in Islamic terms, the cousin's daughter is non mahram and it is permitted in Islam for the man to marry her because he is not her real uncle, but rather 'uncle' is used like a metaphorical term. The only exception to this permissibility that I know of is the case in the OP, whereby the man is already married to a close kin relative of the niece in which case it is haraam for him to marry her.

-MA-
05-09-11, 09:39 PM
Is there a shortage of people to marry or something?

Soliloquy
05-09-11, 09:46 PM
A man married a woman. As long as he remains married to her, he cannot marry her maternal and paternal aunts and nieces.

If the relationship between two women is such that if we had to regard one of them as a man, their nikâh will not be valid, then such two women cannot marry a person at the same time. When one of them passes away or one of them is divorced and completes her iddah , only then will it be permissible for the person to marry the other woman.

:jkk:


either way you look at, biological or not, im just lost for words.


Is there a shortage of people to marry or something?

Perhaps its merely about distinguishing the haraam from the halaal? Why make something halaal akin to haraam? (This isn't addressed to you both, but just in general.)

In an Islamic family, non-mahaarim "nieces" wouldn't be sitting with their "uncles", and generally, they wouldn't even really know them... so, if a situation arose in which the two wanted to marry and found each other to be compatible, there's nothing indecent or disliked about it.

nousername
05-09-11, 10:18 PM
ThiS thread is embaressing. Do ppl really not know marrying a niece or nephew is haram bc it is incest?? This makes Muslims look bad.

.mirror.
05-09-11, 11:08 PM
ThiS thread is embaressing. Do ppl really not know marrying a niece or nephew is haram bc it is incest?? This makes Muslims look bad.

I think the confusion is because sometimes we call people uncle who are clearly our non-Mahram. Islam forbids marrying uncle as in your mother's brother or father's brother. But, we even call people uncle, such as your father's friend, older relatives, and even neighbors. I know this is very common in the Subcontinent and other places. It's almost like a title of respect.

Not sure about North America or UK.