a question non-muslims continualy ask

[peacedove]

assalam-o-alaykum

people continue to ask questions about the authenticity of the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) & of the Quran as a revealed book. They say the the Quran was "written" by the pophet (saws) from Jewish & Christian & other sources.

Does anyone have answers to refute them, or give precise links.

Shukran

[Ayah]

The prophet was illiterate ;) I'll try and find you more info though

[.: Anna :.]

well....off the top of my head, like Ayah said - he saws couldnt actually write so how is he sposed 2 write a whole Qur'an? a Qur'an which is written in reeeeally good quality arabic, its not just slang or anything you know
plus, noone could immitate the Qur'an there are verses saying that, like "if any of you can write a verse like those from the Qur'an, go on then n see what u can do" (NOT direct quote!!!)
noone has ever managed
PLUS Qur'an tells us so many things that muhammad saws could not have know, like about science that they are only just finding out by science now
basically i think they just claim this because if they admitted qur'an is from allah they would have to admit there are some errors in their own books due to them having been changed and all that

[Believer]

Peace,

I believe Muhammed was literate.
He was involved in alot of buisness transactions with his first wife, Khadiyah.
I'm sure he learned some degree how to read and write.
Also, he had alot of literate friends.
I can't see a 40 year old man like him as being illiterate.
Muhammed was a very brilliant man.

Here's my big question:

If God made His covenant with Jacob(Israel) and his descendants.
Most of our Prophets are Israelites.
If He was the God of Israel, why would He break His covenant with the Israelites and make an Ishmaelite His final prophet?
God is not treacherous!
Why couldn't the final prophet be a Jew, why not Jesus Christ?

[JiHaD_JoE]

Originally posted by Believer

Why couldn't the final prophet be a Jew, why not Jesus Christ?

so if Jesus is a jew, are you? also God isnt treacherous, he is all knowing

[Syph]

Of course muhammad was literate, to think otherwise is foolish. The reason muhammad created islam is because both the jews and christians refused to let him study with them. If he tried to study with them it obviously means that he was literate. While he was in the cave he wrote the koran and 'revealed' it to those willing to listen.

Another reason proving the koran is man-made. NOTHING in the koran is new, not a thing. Everything in the koran has already been written in the Torah, or in the mishnah. Any person with biblical study background looking at the document (koran) critically would understand that it is nothing new.

[Syph]

Originally posted by Believer
If God made His covenant with Jacob(Israel) and his descendants.
Most of our Prophets are Israelites.
If He was the God of Israel, why would He break His covenant with the Israelites and make an Ishmaelite His final prophet?
God is not treacherous!
Why couldn't the final prophet be a Jew, why not Jesus Christ?

God made his covenant with Abraham (not jacob).

why not jesus christ? because christianity is a just a sect of judaism, nothing more. But the methods the liars... i mean apostles, used in inviting people to convert worked very well with the gullible minds of the time. They have a good message, which although entirely false, worked on the simpletons of 2000 years ago.

Here's the kicker. Jesus said he was god. Thats the problem right there, the mosiach (messiah) is not and will not be god. he will be human. Messiah ben yosef, then finally messiah ben david.

[Stinky]

Originally posted by Syph
God made his covenant with Abraham (not jacob).

why not jesus christ? because christianity is a just a sect of judaism, nothing more. But the methods the liars... i mean apostles, used in inviting people to convert worked very well with the gullible minds of the time. They have a good message, which although entirely false, worked on the simpletons of 2000 years ago.

Here's the kicker. Jesus said he was god. Thats the problem right there, the mosiach (messiah) is not and will not be god. he will be human. Messiah ben yosef, then finally messiah ben david. to a certain point jewboy I agree with you about Jesus(pbuh) not saying he was god, He is a profit of god. but the rest HMMMMMMMMMMMMM smirk.

[Believer]

Peace Syph,

God made his covenant with Abraham (not jacob).

why not jesus christ? because christianity is a just a sect of judaism, nothing more. But the methods the liars... i mean apostles, used in inviting people to convert worked very well with the gullible minds of the time. They have a good message, which although entirely false, worked on the simpletons of 2000 years ago.

Here's the kicker. Jesus said he was god. Thats the problem right there, the mosiach (messiah) is not and will not be god. he will be human. Messiah ben yosef, then finally messiah ben david.

Chjristianity is the FULFILLMENT of your faith.
In Judaism your focus is on the worship of God, not on God Himself.
In Christianity God has been revealed.

You're aware of the Spirit of the LORD, and how the LORD touched Jeremiah's mouth with His hand.
The Lord is manifest in Spirit and in the image of a man.
Here's the Holy Spirit and God the Son, Jesus!
Moses even saw the Form of the LORD.
He and Jeremiah and others saw the Lord Jesus!
This might sound crazy, but you don't even know your own God!
You don't even know your own Messiah!
Only God is the Lord and Redeemer of Israel, and of the Gentiles.

[peacedove]

assalam-o-alaykum

dear brothers & sisters in islam, please do not forget my question.

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Syph
Of course muhammad was literate, to think otherwise is foolish. The reason muhammad created islam is because both the jews and christians refused to let him study with them. If he tried to study with them it obviously means that he was literate. While he was in the cave he wrote the koran and 'revealed' it to those willing to listen.

Another reason proving the koran is man-made. NOTHING in the koran is new, not a thing. Everything in the koran has already been written in the Torah, or in the mishnah. Any person with biblical study background looking at the document (koran) critically would understand that it is nothing new.

I'd just like to remind that new religions still come up. Two of the more recent ones are Mormonism and Moonism.

The latter may not be so well-known, so take a look at their home page: http://www.familyfed.org/.

[Rafia]

Originally posted by Syph
Of course muhammad was literate, to think otherwise is foolish. The reason muhammad created islam is because both the jews and christians refused to let him study with them. If he tried to study with them it obviously means that he was literate. While he was in the cave he wrote the koran and 'revealed' it to those willing to listen.

Another reason proving the koran is man-made. NOTHING in the koran is new, not a thing. Everything in the koran has already been written in the Torah, or in the mishnah. Any person with biblical study background looking at the document (koran) critically would understand that it is nothing new.

Muhammed (PBUH) had many enemies and people who wished to see him fail, yet not ONE of them tried to refute the fact that he was illiterate and infact ALL of them testified to his being the most honest and trustworthy in the land. Now I don't know which planet you live on but I know if I tried to pass something off as a lie, especially something soooo HUGE then I'd soon get caught out. So although his enemies tried to claim that the Quran was from Satan - not once did they say, you lie Muhammed (PBUH), you WROTE IT!!!

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello syph,
Of course muhammad was literate, to think otherwise is foolish
so you are more of an authority than all the historians. All historians, regardless of their personal faith believe in the illiteracy of the prophet Muhammed (saw). In recent times there have been various articles by non-muslims questioning this. It has taken them nearly 1400 years to say this but the fact of the matter is that the prophet was illiterate and there is ample historical evidence for this. The prophet (saw) did not however die illiterate. I can go into more detail on this if you so wish, as I have read the various articles on whether the prophet was literate or not, and to be frank they are a pile of rubbish. I am actually surprised that this is even an issue.
The reason muhammad created islam is because both the jews and christians refused to let him study with them.
lol, where is your evidence for your claim. Don’t just throw an opinion in without backing it up. Before you present your evidence I will stick my neck out and say it is rubbish and I will completely refute whatever evidence you present.
If he tried to study with them it obviously means that he was literate. While he was in the cave he wrote the koran and 'revealed' it to those willing to listen.
IF!! IF!! Show your evidence Syph. I consider this blatant lying until you present your case with references. You believe the prophet (saw) wrote the Quran. Again bring your evidence. Your claims are so far fetched that it will be very easy to clear this issue up. I look forward to your evidence and we will take it from there.
Another reason proving the koran is man-made. NOTHING in the koran is new, not a thing. Everything in the koran has already been written in the Torah, or in the mishnah. Any person with biblical study background looking at the document (koran) critically would understand that it is nothing new.
Syph Syph Syph. Seriously mate what are you saying. There is so much I can write about this that I don’t know where to start. You are completely and utterly wrong! Do you want me to cut and paste the Quran with it’s tafseer to show you the differences. It will take me years!! The [B]original[B] Torah is a holy book of muslims, the Quran does indeed build on it. But that’s it!! Islam is the culmination and the FINAL religion of Allah (swt)

Hamza

[fides]

I believe the definition of illiterate is not being able to read and write.

What does this have to do with anything?

Does that mean Mohhamed did not know how to speak Arabic?

So he speaks and someone else writes it down.

What is so amazing about that?

[Ayah]

Ermm.. just in case you didn't see the sign, this is a LEARN ABOUT ISLAM forum, not a "time to bash islam" one and "promote religions other than islam." Peacedove asked an Islamic question and wants an "islamic response." Hence, some of your replies are of no help and are apparently, only intended for insult.

~Ayah

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Fides,
I believe the definition of illiterate is not being able to read and write.
but Syph has said he wrote the Quran.
What does this have to do with anything?
If you have had a formal education in religion, science, social studies, arts and humanities, literature etc etc, you may be able to write a book encompassing these subjects. If you haven’t had this type of education and are still able to ‘produce’ the Quran which has kept many learned scholars, from different fields, occupied, then this is a miracle.
Does that mean Mohhamed did not know how to speak Arabic?

So he speaks and someone else writes it down.

What is so amazing about that?
You can still speak and be illiterate. Could you speak on various topics for over 20 years and have no inconsistencies. Could you even remember what you said 20 years ago? The Quran is not a short piece of prose. Arabic scholar’s hail it a masterpiece of the Arabic language. It is not just the content but the actual language and structure used. If yo knew Arabic you would understand that it is a miraculous feat.

Hamza

[Syph]

Arabs claim the koran was written in beautiful arabic, not slang. if muhammad was a regular old joe who couldnt read or write I doubt he would be able to read and understand the arabic of the koran.

you people are so brainwashed i laugh when i read these threads.

[Hamza Abbass]

Arabs claim the koran was written in beautiful arabic, not slang. if muhammad was a regular old joe who couldnt read or write I doubt he would be able to read and understand the arabic of the koran.

you people are so brainwashed i laugh when i read these threads.
Well syph, I see you have produced no evidence for your earlier comments. In that case it is just a lie you want to spread. Fair enough if that is what your faith teaches you to do, I won’t stop you. You have come on this board to represent your views, it’s a shame that you do not have the knowledge or ability to back up your post. All you seem to be able to do is post useless vitriol. I am far from being ‘brainwashed’ I can back my beliefs up via rational argument and can present evidence to back my assertions. Shame you can’t do that. If you can’t back your slanders on Islam then why should you be allowed to post? I believe in free speech and you should be allowed to present your case. However, if you cannot back your posts then why should you be allowed to post lies? I’ll be interested to hear your comments.

Hamza

[Hamza Abbass]

There is NO MENTION of Jerusalem in the koran AT ALL. None whatsoever. What claim do muslims have to Jerusalem and eretz yisroel? None.

The Torah refers to Jerusalem over 700 times. So let me ask you.... who was there first?

Why does the Quran have to mention Jerusalem? The muslims do not claim Jerusalem. The Palestinian’s whose land it is claim Jerusalem. As to who was there first, I will repeat my question that I have asked you previously (and had no reply) should the American’s hand the States back to the Native American’s? Should Australia hand it back to the Aborigines? Should New Zealand hand it back to the Maori’s. Should all the European descendants of South America be sent back to Europe? Should the Dutch descendants leave South Africa? The fact is the Jewish people should live in Palestine, be free to practice their faith, with no hindrance, but the government should be Palestinian as it is their land and has been for centuries. What is happening now is what the American’s did to the Native Americans, Australians to the Aborigine’s etc etc. It is morally wrong and I cannot believe God is happy with the state of Israel for what it is doing to the Palestinian people in the name of Judaism. It is dishonourable and shameful that persecution is being carried out in the name of God.

Hamza

[Details]

i question the translation of ummy to 'illiterate'

take 3:75 in the quran for example.

Among the People of the Scripture there is he who, if thou trust him with a weight of treasure, will return it to thee. And among them there is he who, if thou trust him with a piece of gold, will not return it to thee unless thou keep standing over him. That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly.

Pickthall translates it as Gentiles. (al-ommiyyeena)

2:78 says

Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. They but guess.

62:2
He it is Who hath sent among the unlettered ones a messenger of their own, to recite unto them His revelations and to make them grow, and to teach them the Scripture and wisdom, though heretofore they were indeed in error manifest,

in 7:158 it says

Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no God save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

but in arabic, it is "al-ummiyyi" So the translation doesnt quite make sense .... its not trying to say, "the prophet the illiterate" it should be "the prophet, the gentile"

go ahead, and put gentile where-ever you see 'illiterate' or 'can not read and write' ... you'll see those verses make much more sense.

[Believer]

Peace Hamza Abbass,

Why does the Quran have to mention Jerusalem? The muslims do not claim Jerusalem. The Palestinian’s whose land it is claim Jerusalem.

Because God is the God of Israel!
I fail to see how God would make an Ishmaelite His final prophet when He made a sacred covenant with Jacob and the Israelites!
At the very very least He would have mentioned the old capital city of His chosen people!

The Quran NEVER mentions Jerusalem, Jericho, Nineveh, Babylon, Sodom, Gommorah, etc!
Something is seriously wrong here!
I guess Muhammed wasn't a historian. :D

It is morally wrong and I cannot believe God is happy with the state of Israel for what it is doing to the Palestinian people in the name of Judaism. It is dishonourable and shameful that persecution is being carried out in the name of God.


I say the same for suicide bombers slaughtering innocent civilians!
Palestinians suffer because of these suicide bombers.
The Jewish army invades refugee camps in search of these terrorists, and if they inadvertantly kill some Palestinians, who is to blame?

[Syph]

Originally posted by Believer
I fail to see how God would make an Ishmaelite His final prophet when He made a sacred covenant with Jacob and the Israelites!

You are right, I dont think God would make Ishmaelite the final prophet. In the torah it says that because Ishmael's behavior, his descedents would be nothing but bandits.

Hence, no way muhammad can be the final prophet.

[awara_jawan/qaatil]

The Nabi as was illiterate this is irrefutables as the orientalists before also agree upon this.
Well done hamza for your eloquent defence, see how they resort to mockery when reasoning fails?
Actually if we were to post all the instances where the QURAN has rectified the torah and bible we would be here for a hundred years, why would your god allow you to continue letting you beleive in a book that states the earth is flat and contains so many sexual perversions and scientific inaccuracies? would your god not send a book that was pure? a book that wou;ld confirm the truth and give new meaning to life? a books whos scientific facts are still being realised, a book that dictates daily life for billions, a book upon which the most just and intellectually advanced civilisation in history was based. The fact is that even if Mohammed saw was literate where did he get the information about man, life and universe? infrmation that is still not comprehended?
Many have tried to find fault in the QURAN and all have failed, look at the threads about the errors in the bible, they speak for themselves.
AND SO WHAT IF SOME OF THE QURAN IS FROM THE TORAH AND INJEEL, ISLAM TELLS US THAT WE MUST BELEIVE IN THE FOREMENTIONED BOOKS AND ALSO TELLS US THAT THE QURAN IS HERE TO VARIFY AND ELABORATE AND CLARIFY THESE TEXTS, SO WE BELEIVE IN THESE BOOKS.
I BELEIVE IN THE TORAH AND INJEEL THAT WERE REVEALED TO IESA AS AND MOOSA AS SO IF THEY ARE SIMILAR TO QURAN BIG DEAL. WE BELEIVE IN THE PROPHETS FROM ADAM AS TO MOHAMMED SAW, SO SO WHAT IF THEY ARE MENTIONED IN ALL THE BOOKS?
AS THE BOOKS HAVE THE SAME SOURCE THEY WILL BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR.
STILL YE CANNOT PROVE THAT MOHAMMED SAW WAS EDUCATED WHERE DID HE SAW GO TO SCHOOL? WHO WAS HIS SAW TEACHER? WHAT WERE HIS SAW QUALIFICATIONS? WHERE IS IT DOCUMENTED AMONGST THE HISTORIANS OF THE TIME?
ALSO TELL ME WHY THE CHRISTIAN ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAD TO USE THE QURAN TO FIND THE REAL LOCATION OF THE ARK WHEN BIBLICAL SOURCES LED THEM FAR FROM THE ACTUAL LOCATION IF THE QURAN IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE?

[Believer]

why would your god allow you to continue letting you beleive in a book that states the earth is flat and contains so many sexual perversions and scientific inaccuracies?

This proves a lack of your understanding.
Will you judge what you don't understand?

[awara_jawan/qaatil]

beleiver the historical and scientific inaccuracies of the bible are too long to list but the moral perversions contained within the old and new testemants are a prrof that these books are not from God

The Nabi as was illiterate this is irrefutables as the orientalists before also agree upon this.
Well done hamza for your eloquent defence, see how they resort to mockery when reasoning fails?
Actually if we were to post all the instances where the QURAN has rectified the torah and bible we would be here for a hundred years, why would your god allow you to continue letting you beleive in a book that states the earth is flat and contains so many sexual perversions and scientific inaccuracies? would your god not send a book that was pure? a book that wou;ld confirm the truth and give new meaning to life? a books whos scientific facts are still being realised, a book that dictates daily life for billions, a book upon which the most just and intellectually advanced civilisation in history was based. The fact is that even if Mohammed saw was literate where did he get the information about man, life and universe? infrmation that is still not comprehended?
Many have tried to find fault in the QURAN and all have failed, look at the threads about the errors in the bible, they speak for themselves.
AND SO WHAT IF SOME OF THE QURAN IS FROM THE TORAH AND INJEEL, ISLAM TELLS US THAT WE MUST BELEIVE IN THE FOREMENTIONED BOOKS AND ALSO TELLS US THAT THE QURAN IS HERE TO VARIFY AND ELABORATE AND CLARIFY THESE TEXTS, SO WE BELEIVE IN THESE BOOKS.
I BELEIVE IN THE TORAH AND INJEEL THAT WERE REVEALED TO IESA AS AND MOOSA AS SO IF THEY ARE SIMILAR TO QURAN BIG DEAL. WE BELEIVE IN THE PROPHETS FROM ADAM AS TO MOHAMMED SAW, SO SO WHAT IF THEY ARE MENTIONED IN ALL THE BOOKS?
AS THE BOOKS HAVE THE SAME SOURCE THEY WILL BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR.
STILL YE CANNOT PROVE THAT MOHAMMED SAW WAS EDUCATED WHERE DID HE SAW GO TO SCHOOL? WHO WAS HIS SAW TEACHER? WHAT WERE HIS SAW QUALIFICATIONS? WHERE IS IT DOCUMENTED AMONGST THE HISTORIANS OF THE TIME?
ALSO TELL ME WHY THE CHRISTIAN ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAD TO USE THE QURAN TO FIND THE REAL LOCATION OF THE ARK WHEN BIBLICAL SOURCES LED THEM FAR FROM THE ACTUAL LOCATION IF THE QURAN IS HISTORICALLY INACCURATE?

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Believer, I wish you wouldn’t be so blinkered, but then I suppose you have to deal with the cards you are dealt. :)

Because God is the God of Israel!
er excuse me, are we not all equal in God’s ‘eyes’? In your opinion based on your scriptures. I do not believe in your sources. They are riddled with inaccuracies and have been tainted by man. I cannot accept them fully. Now since you know this position, why do you insist on using your scriptures when they have little value to me. Try and present your case from the Quran or historical sources and then you may see me give a bit more respect to your posts. I do not agree with the teachings of Christianity and I defend my position based on what the scriptures and history has to say. I do not defend my view (when debating with Christians) based on the Quran as I know that would not carry weight with Christians.
I fail to see how God would make an Ishmaelite His final prophet when He made a sacred covenant with Jacob and the Israelites!
At the very very least He would have mentioned the old capital city of His chosen people!
aah but God made it with Ishmael and not Isaac!! If you want to know the reality, follow this link:

http://www.islam101.com/religions/sacrifice.htm

At the very very least He would have mentioned the old capital city of His chosen people!
Why?

The Quran NEVER mentions Jerusalem, Jericho, Nineveh, Babylon, Sodom, Gommorah, etc!
Something is seriously wrong here!
So? Why should it mention these cities? Why should the Quran have to go over everything that has been mentioned before, by God?
I guess Muhammed wasn't a historian.
You shouldn’t resort to guesses, not a very good way of making your point. Muhammed (saw) is the last and greatest of all prophets. Not a guess just a simple fact. :)

I say the same for suicide bombers slaughtering innocent civilians!
The Palestinian freedom fighters are defending their people, land and property from occupation. Anyone who lives in a war zone and hav usurped the Palestinians of their rights do so at great risk. It is not a good situation but the people who have taken the land of the Palestinians are just as culpable as the Israeli military.
Palestinians suffer because of these suicide bombers.
Don’t put the cart before the horse. The Israeli’s have stolen the land and are using their military might to keep the land for themselves. David will beat Goliath. Ironic if it wasn’t so serious. Israel tries to use it’s might and influense in Washington to try and put a moral case forward. Any sensible unbiased individual knows who has morality on their side. It is a real shame that Israel has forgotten what it is like to be persecuted and has no care or humanity for the Palestinian people. It is a shame that you espouse Christian values and yet you do not live by them. Instead you prefer to be blind to the injustices meted out by Israel. Do you really have Isa (as) in your heart. What hipocrisy you display!!
The Jewish army invades refugee camps in search of these terrorists, and if they inadvertantly kill some Palestinians, who is to blame?
What nonsense!! Inadvertently!! Yes you can carry on being blind, but it will not change the Truth. Collective punishment. Is that a tenet of your faith? Is discrimination part of your faith? Surely it is not, but you surely think it is as expressed by your views.

Hamza

[Syph]

aah but God made it with Ishmael and not Isaac!! If you want to know the reality, follow this link:

http://www.islam101.com/religions/sacrifice.htm


That site is islam101, can you possibly provide a non-bias/islamic site that would say.

Hashem made his covenant with ABRAHAM, not Isaac and not Jacob. A-B-R-A-H-A-M. And it was Isaac who was to be sacrificed because the Torah clearly states that Ishmael and his decendents would be BANDITS.

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Syph,
That site is islam101, can you possibly provide a non-bias/islamic site that would say.

Hashem made his covenant with ABRAHAM, not Isaac and not Jacob. A-B-R-A-H-A-M. And it was Isaac who was to be sacrificed because the Torah clearly states that Ishmael and his decendents would be BANDITS.
lol, the site produces evidence from the Old Testament, I agree the Old Testament is biased after all the changes that have been made to it but the Truth can still be seen, if you are prepared to read the Old Testament properly  If you can argue against the article, I’m listening.

Hamza

[Syph]

Originally posted by Hamza Abbass
Hello Syph,

lol, the site produces evidence from the Old Testament, I agree the Old Testament is biased after all the changes that have been made to it but the Truth can still be seen, if you are prepared to read the Old Testament properly  If you can argue against the article, I?m listening.

Hamza

I'm gonna leave that burden to you. Any educated non-brainwashed person who has studied the Torah knows that it was Isaac and not Ishmael. Like I said in the Torah it says that Ishmael and his descendents will be bandits. That exact word, bandits, is used.

Who are you to tell me how to read the Torah properly? You can't possibly read it properly because you read it with the knowledge of the Koran. I read the Torah without my mind being tainted thus I can understand it while you, obviously, can not.

I read an article that said that a muslim wrote that the koran talks about DNA. He spread the article and eventually muslims began to believe the article. He then said that the article was false and he was just trying to show the gullibility of muslims. Because of that, I have to carefully consider what any muslim says because for all I know, it could be nothing but lies that they believed because it is so easy to get a muslim to believe anything. Why? Because muslims believe that the world of another muslim is sacred. Muslims lie too.

All that site says is "the islamic version states...." The islamic version is a lie! but of course its easy to get muslims to believe anything.

[Hamza Abbass]

Syph,
I'm gonna leave that burden to you. Any educated non-brainwashed person who has studied the Torah knows that it was Isaac and not Ishmael. Like I said in the Torah it says that Ishmael and his descendents will be bandits. That exact word, bandits, is used.
lol, Syph, if you can’t refute it have the courage to admit your failings. As to calling Ishmael and his descendants bandits. Well, what can I say your ignorance speaks louder than anything I can write. Is this the new belief that Judaism espouses?
Who are you to tell me how to read the Torah properly? You can't possibly read it properly because you read it with the knowledge of the Koran. I read the Torah without my mind being tainted thus I can understand it while you, obviously, can not.
I am just pointing out the inconsistencies in the Torah and why it is not valid. I invite you to do the same with regards the Quran. I can defend the Quran fully, shame you can’t defend the Torah. I have read the Old Testament many times and it’s a good read and interesting. Doesn’t stand up to detailed scrutiny but then only the Quran does.
It’s a very silly point you make of me being biased because I have read the Quran. I am open to being persuaded by your arguments. As of yet you have done nothing to make me think twice about my beliefs.
I read an article that said that a muslim wrote that the koran talks about DNA. He spread the article and eventually muslims began to believe the article. He then said that the article was false and he was just trying to show the gullibility of muslims. Because of that, I have to carefully consider what any muslim says because for all I know, it could be nothing but lies that they believed because it is so easy to get a muslim to believe anything. Why? Because muslims believe that the world of another muslim is sacred. Muslims lie too.
nice little story :) You will find I am not so gullible :) Everything I post I invite scrutiny. Everything I post I can defend. Every opinion I make I do so after careful consideration. Every word I write I scrutinise. I do not cloud my judgement by a person’s reputation (good or bad) I will read their post in an unbiased way. The post is all that concern’s me. You are welcome to bring me to task if I have posted something erroneous, but don’t accuse me of anything without producing your proof. Everything I post I do so diligently. I have my own thoughts and opinions and I am not ambiguous when I voice them.
All that site says is "the islamic version states...." The islamic version is a lie! but of course its easy to get muslims to believe anything.
you have missed the point. It is giving the view of what muslims believe based on the Torah. You call it a lie, so prove it to me, or are you just letting off again? Oh and I’m not as gullible as you may think so cover all the angles when you post as I will pick up on any errors in your logic.

Hamza

[Kaaju Barfi]

syph werent u the same people who called a jesus[a.s] a 'bastard' and he was in pot of boling faeces and his mother a 'whore' all these are well documented in ur religious textx authored by ur terrorists..oops i mean rabbis.so i will never believe a jew when it comes to religion.

believer..offoo i mean illogical polytheistic unbeliever u are still not answering my simple question.. who is god, jesus or the god of israel?

[Syph]

Originally posted by Kaaju Barfi
syph werent u the same people who called a jesus[a.s] a 'bastard' and he was in pot of boling faeces and his mother a 'whore' all these are well documented in ur religious textx authored by ur terrorists..oops i mean rabbis.so i will never believe a jew when it comes to religion.

believer..offoo i mean illogical polytheistic unbeliever u are still not answering my simple question.. who is god, jesus or the god of israel?

Kaaju,

There were 4 sects of Judaism at the time of Christ.

Saducees
Zealots
Esceens
Pharisees

Jesus was, himself, a pharisee.

Now I don't know what you're talking about calling his mother a whore and all that, I have never heard of that. It is probably muslims who made that argument because of their insecurities.

Perhaps maybe the zealots might have said something like that, I mean they were the ones who caused the destruction of the 2nd temple and the diaspora.

But the Pharisees (rabbis) would have never said such a thing.

[Believer]

Awara_Jawan posted:
beleiver the historical and scientific inaccuracies of the bible are too long to list but the moral perversions contained within the old and new testemants are a prrof that these books are not from God

The "historical and scientific inaccuracies " are untrue, they're a result of non-Christians' and Muslim scholars' futile arrempts to disprove the legitamicy of the Bible. I see NO contradictions in the Bible.

There are very rare stories of sexual perversion, such as the story of Lot's daughters.
The Bible is a "tell is as it is" book.
It's truthfulness stands testiment that it is truthful.

Hamza Abbas,

er excuse me, are we not all equal in God’s ‘eyes’? In your opinion based on your scriptures. I do not believe in your sources. They are riddled with inaccuracies and have been tainted by man. I cannot accept them fully

That is a very cheap way to look at the te Bible.
"Oh, I don't want to believe that so it must be a corruption"

aah but God made it with Ishmael and not Isaac!! If you want to know the reality, follow this link:

Muslim scholars lie to defend their faith.
Find me non-Muslim sources to back up this outrageous claim.

God gave Abraham and Sarah as miraculous son, Isaac.
Was this a mere parlor trick? I think not!!
Everything God does has a special purpose.

At the very very least He would have mentioned the old capital city of His chosen people!

Why? For 2000 years God's people were the Israelites.
Why would He dump them? Why would He forget about them?

The Palestinian freedom fighters are defending their people, land and property from occupation.

Oh yes! Some freedom fighters! Slaughtering innocent Jewish civilians is real freedom fighting.
You should hear yourself!


Don’t put the cart before the horse

It is a shame that you espouse Christian values and yet you do not live by them. Instead you prefer to be blind to the injustices meted out by Israel. Do you really have Isa (as) in your heart. What hipocrisy you display!!


What nonsense!! Inadvertently!! Yes you can carry on being blind, but it will not change the Truth. Collective punishment. Is that a tenet of your faith? Is discrimination part of your faith? Surely it is not, but you surely think it is as expressed by your views.



Before the horse God commanded Joshua to slaughter many thousands of people to obtain Israel. Israel was hard earned through much bloodshed, like Arabia was secured by Muhammed.

The Jews were driven from there homeland and suffered many unspeakable atrocities through the last 3000 years!
They most certainly deserved Israel!
It was given to them by God!

As a Christian, the Jewish Tanakh is a part of my scriptures.
So I believe God gave Israel to the Isaelites, but you believe differently because you reject the Bible.
As a Christian, I must keep in mind what is best for my brothers, and another Islamic state would be a tragedy for those Christians living under its power. Christians fare better under a Jewish state.
As a Christian I have a totally different view on this issue than you. Most Christians support Israel because we share significant religious beliefs with Jews. We believe the Bible justifies the state of Israel.

You as a Muslim may see things differently because of the Quran and the teachings of your Prophet. You tend to symphasize with your brothers, as I symphasize with by brothers, the Jews.
Please, don't blame me for anything! I am just a Christian.


Kaffu Barfi posted:
syph werent u the same people who called a jesus[a.s] a 'bastard' and he was in pot of boling faeces and his mother a 'whore' all these are well documented in ur religious textx authored by ur terrorists..oops i mean rabbis.so i will never believe a jew when it comes to religion.

believer..offoo i mean illogical polytheistic unbeliever u are still not answering my simple question.. who is god, jesus or the god of israel?

I'm not a polytheist!
God is the God of Israel and Jesus Christ.

Also, I don'r believe Jews said such perevrse things, but they didn't like Jesus because of His very radical message.

[peacedove]

assalam-o-alaykum

thanks all, although i am surprised at the venom from the non-muslims here. I found the following links elsewhere. Thought i would share with you:

http://www.al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/articles/do_you_know_this_book.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/

http://www.jannah.org/articles/quranwrote.html

http://www.islam101.com/science/GaryMiller.html

http://www.irf.net/irf/download/middle/displaydowncatg.php3

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/josephdetail.html

http://www.harunyahya.com/50_the_word_haman.php

http://www.al-sunnah.com/material_on_the_authenticity.htm

[Hamza Abbass]

Believer,
That is a very cheap way to look at the te Bible.
"Oh, I don't want to believe that so it must be a corruption"
lol, you have got the wrong end of the stick. The Bible has been corrupted by man and therefore I do not believe in it. Is my position clear now? :)
Muslim scholars lie to defend their faith.
Find me non-Muslim sources to back up this outrageous claim.

God gave Abraham and Sarah as miraculous son, Isaac.
Was this a mere parlor trick? I think not!!
Everything God does has a special purpose.
er, I think the ownership is on you to refute the article. After all the article is based on the Old Testament. You do believe in the Old Testament, don't you? :)
Why? For 2000 years God's people were the Israelites.
Why would He dump them? Why would He forget about them?
God hasn't forgotten about anyone. They were not 'dumped' God made his covenant with Abraham through Ishmael and He has followed it through. Judaism, then Christianity and then the FINAL religion of God's Islam came. It's quite logical really each building on the other till you get the complete 'picture'
Oh yes! Some freedom fighters! Slaughtering innocent Jewish civilians is real freedom fighting.
You should hear yourself!
mmm and yet you show no sympathy for the millions, yes millions of Palestinan men, women and children who have been turfed out of their land by the Jewish immigrants and they now live in abject poverty in refugee camps, and have done for decades. Although the situation is incredibly bad an civilians die, they shopuld not have immigrated and stolen other peole's land. People immigrating to Israel, must understand that they are moving to a war zone. It is a bad situation but my sympathies do lie with the Palestinians as they are the victims. They are the ones who have had their land and property stolen. They are the ones being persecuted. Israel and America are trying to convince the world that the Palestinians are at fault. Well, they will have an easier task in making the world believe day is night and night is day. If you cannot discern the morality of the situation then your Christian values have taught you nothing. The reading of the Bible has stayed in your throat and got no further!!
The Jews were driven from there homeland and suffered many unspeakable atrocities through the last 3000 years!
They most certainly deserved Israel!
It was given to them by God!
The Jewish people are not the only ones to have suffered atrocities. History is littered with atrocities and genocides. The Native Americans were virtually wiped out by the Americans. Now you say God has promised Israel to the Jews, I disagree. Some Jews are so intransigent in their beliefs they are willing to kill for their God. mmm sounds great. why can they not live with the Palestinians? Why do they have to steal the land?
As a Christian, the Jewish Tanakh is a part of my scriptures.
So I believe God gave Israel to the Isaelites, but you believe differently because you reject the Bible.
so the end justifies the means. That is basically what you are saying. Well if that what your faith teaches you then fair enough. I'm staying well clear of that ideology, but you go ahead and embrace it.
As a Christian, I must keep in mind what is best for my brothers, and another Islamic state would be a tragedy for those Christians living under its power. Christians fare better under a Jewish state.
er no, as a Christian you should be mindful what is morally right. It doesn't matter whose side you are on whether it is your family or a stranger. What matters is who has morality on their side. Kinship, faith does not enter into it. The Truth is the 'be all and end all'
As a Christian I have a totally different view on this issue than you. Most Christians support Israel because we share significant religious beliefs with Jews. We believe the Bible justifies the state of Israel.
You as a Muslim may see things differently because of the Quran and the teachings of your Prophet. You tend to symphasize with your brothers, as I symphasize with by brothers, the Jews.
well this is where I fundamentally differ with you. I do not side with muslims just because they are muslims. I side with whoever has the moral high ground. I have spoken in support of the Iraq war when the majority of my fellow muslims on this board were/are against it. My views on Al-Qaeda are opposed to the majority of muslims here. I am strongly opposed to most Arab governments. Now I side with the Palestinians because they are the victims and there is no doubt in my mind on this.

Please, don't blame me for anything! I am just a Christian.
I do not blame you because you are a Christian. I respect all three monotheistic faiths. In fact I respect anyone who has an honest belief in their faith, even though I may disagree. LanceThrusterX is a committed atheist. I actually respect him because he is honest in his appraisal of his belief. I can't knock him for that. He is consistent with his beliefs. I find you are not consistent with your beliefs as a Christian. You have shown favouritism and are blinkered to the wider picture, this is not what the Bible teaches and hence I find fault with you. You are, at best, prejudiced against Islam, and at worst have a hatred to Islam. Generality is not preached in the Bible. Every incident/case is taken on its merits. I have supported the American government in some of its actions and I have slated it for other actions. I never blame the American people per se as I do not generalise. If I have an issue I explain it and I am specific. I am not so ignorant as to allow my personal feelings for individuals, cloud my judgement on whole faiths. As it happens, I have no feeling of enmity or ill will towards yourself. I do not harbour enmity towards Syph (who is as Zionistic as you can get). My posts can be caustic and sharp but they are relevant to the topic being discussed. I pointed some errors out in your logic, as a Christian, and I did it 'sharply'. I just like dressing my posts up a bit.

Hamza

[Believer]

Peace Hamza Abbass,

The Bible has been corrupted by man and therefore I do not believe in it. Is my position clear now?

Then why can't I find any corruptions in it?
I looked all the "contradictons" that Muslim Schloars claim are true contradictions---but they are not!
The Bible is my book and I have been studying It for quite some time, and I do not see any corruptions or contradictions in it.


God hasn't forgotten about anyone. They were not 'dumped' God made his covenant with Abraham through Ishmael and He has followed it through. Judaism, then Christianity and then the FINAL religion of God's Islam came. It's quite logical really each building on the other till you get the complete 'picture'


God DID NOT EVER FOR ONE SECOND make His convenant with Abraham through Ismael. God's covenant went like this:
Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Israelites..........Gentiles and Jews through the Messiah.

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.
There's the Old Testiment and then the New Testiment.
There is no third testiment.


If you cannot discern the morality of the situation then your Christian values have taught you nothing. The reading of the Bible has stayed in your throat and got no further!!


I never said I didn't feel sorry that millions of palestinians were removed from Israel, but don't support the suicide bombers.
I symphasize with the innocent Jewish civilians that have been brutally slaughtered by these ""freedom fighters""
It's not like they're just fightimg millitary occupation forces, but they are directly attacking the Jewish populace.
YOU don't see the morality of this situation!

Some Jews are so intransigent in their beliefs they are willing to kill for their God. mmm sounds great

This what alot of Mulsims do.

well this is where I fundamentally differ with you. I do not side with muslims just because they are muslims. I side with whoever has the moral high ground.

I percieve that the Jews have the higher moral ground.
Our entire perspective differs, okay.
This doesn't mean I'm a bad Christian, or that your a bad Muslim.

You are, at best, prejudiced against Islam, and at worst have a hatred to Islam

No more or less than other non-Muslims on this site.
I don't hate you or your faith, I simply do not see it as having any valid grounds. Nothing against you, friend.
I feel that your faith is based on presumptions, like Jews and Christians corupted their scriptures. This is outrageous.
We love our scriptures like you, and we would be no less inclined to change our scrptures then you would.

[Ayah]

{{{{Believer said: Muslim scholars lie to defend their faith.
Find me non-Muslim sources to back up this outrageous claim.}}}}

:rolleyes: Why would we defend ourselves using sources that were changed? The truth is in the Quran, the final revelation of God. Since when do you back up your faith & beliefs using Islam? You're a walking and talking contradiction.

{{{{Believer said: I symphasize with the innocent Jewish civilians that have been brutally slaughtered by these ""freedom fighters""
It's not like they're just fightimg millitary occupation forces, but they are directly attacking the Jewish populace. YOU don't see the morality of this situation!}}}}

What about the Palestinians that are brutally murdered day in and day out? Do you cover your eyes and turn away from the reality? Do you not see that their homes are bulldozed? Children are orphaned and live in fear. How dare you speak out against Palestinians who are defending themselves and their homeland and disregard the true oppressors in Palestine?!!

{{{{Believer said: I don't hate you or your faith, I simply do not see it as having any valid grounds. Nothing against you, friend.}}}}

What a contradiction!! "I find the basis of your faith invalid 'friend.'" What a crock! Inside you are full of such hatred, and outside, you make it seem like you "love." Muslims don't need ppl like you as friends.

{{{{Believer said: I feel that your faith is based on presumptions, like Jews and Christians corupted their scriptures. This is outrageous. We love our scriptures like you, and we would be no less inclined to change our scriptures then you would.}}}}

As I asked in a post long long ago, have you ever seen the Bible in its original language? Have you ever heard its recitation in the original language? How many Christians living today have it memorized in the original language the Jesus had in his own hands?

[mohabdul]

Peacedove said:

assalam-o-alaykum

people continue to ask questions about the authenticity of the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) & of the Quran as a revealed book. They say the the Quran was "written" by the pophet (saws) from Jewish & Christian & other sources.

Does anyone have answers to refute them, or give precise links.

Shukran
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My advice to you would be the same advice Allah (swt) gave to His own Prophet (saw): Your job is just to deliver the message to them, and not to try to convince them or get into constant debate with them.
Allah says:

35:23 Thou art no other than a warner.
Surah Fatir

Plus, the Quran tells us that these arguments that the Kuffars always bring up is nothing new. They argued with all the previous Prophets. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and many others before Muhammad (saw) went through the same thing.
Try to understand that what you are facing is nothing more than what all the Kuffars in the past have argued about.
All you need to do is give them information about Islam and let them do the rest. If they are honest and seeking they will research objectively and see the truth. Most of them are like the ones you see here on this board. Just arguing and constantly making claims without any sources to back their arguments. They will always say, "I think ..." " I believe ..... " , but never present any facts or sources. So, do not waiste your time with them.

After giving them the information, follow what Allah said to His Prophet:

20:135 Say: "Each one (of us) is waiting: wait ye, therefore, and soon shall ye know who it is that is on the straight and even way, and who it is that has received Guidance."
Surah Ta-Ha


11:122 "And wait ye! We too shall wait."
Surha Hud



Just remember, the majority of Kuffars are not looking for the truth. They are only looking to argue about things and to score points. So, do not waist your time. The ones that are truly searching will do their own research with very little help from Muslims. Allah knows their heart and He will guide them to Islam.
Allah made a promise about this religion, and by Allah, it is being manifested right in front of our eyes. Here is what He said:


9:33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).
Surah Taubah

[awara_jawan/qaatil]

translation from quranic arabic is near impossible so study islam then give me your exegesis on the word ummi.

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Believer,
Then why can't I find any corruptions in it?
I looked all the "contradictons" that Muslim Schloars claim are true contradictions---but they are not!
The Bible is my book and I have been studying It for quite some time, and I do not see any corruptions or contradictions in it.
well you haven’t really been studying the Bible properly then. Let me give you a few pointers:
The Bible says Jesus thought ‘Judgement day’ was only a short time away, e.g. he told the high priest that he would see his return - Mark 14:61-62, he told three disciples that they would see his return - Matt 16;28, and he advised the disciples he would return before they had preached throughout Palestine - Matt 10:23. Additionally, when Jesus told his disciples about the end of the world (Mark 13:3-27), he told them that the generation living at that time (ca. 30 CE) would still be alive when "all these things", (i.e. the Second Coming, the Final Judgement, the end of the world, etc., etc.) took place (Mark 13:30). Despite saying all this, he then told the disciples that no one - including himself - knew when the end would come (13:32). Also, he foretold that he would be buried for 3 days and 3 nights in Matt 12:40. But Friday evening (Mark 15:42-46) to before Sunday daybreak (John 20:1-2) is not 3 days and 3 nights. (NB. Mark 15:42 states he was buried after sundown on the Friday, i.e. the sabbath (this is Saturday in Jewish reckoning - something quite impossible to have happened).
With regard to the end of the world etc, Jesus stated that there would be an "abominating sacrilege" (Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14) which would cause a tribulation (Matt 24:16-28, Mark 13:15-23) and IMMEDIATELY after this (Matt 24:29), he would return to usher in the Final Judgement (Matt 24:29-31). Now Luke has in the parallel passage, the "abominating sacrilege" as the Fall of Jerusalem (Luke 21:20; as can be seen by Luke 21:21-23, the author of Luke does equate "the abominating sacrilege" with Jerusalem's destruction). However, Jerusalem's destruction (particularly as described in Luke) occurred in 70 CE.
There are actually numerous fictional stories in the Gospels, (i.e. stories of occurrences which defy historical possibility), e.g. the Jews going to Pilate on their sabbath day (Matt 27:62) - something quite impossible. Note how Matt (26:17-19), Mark (14:12-16) and Luke (23:8-13) say that it was the Passover (eaten on the evening of 14 Nisan) that Jesus ate at the last supper. However in John, after the meal, after the arrest, after the trial before the Sanhedrin, the Passover had still not started (John 18:28) and even after his appearance before Pilate the next day, the Passover had still had not been eaten - John 19:14. John's author apparently included this variation to have Jesus executed at the same time that the Passover lambs were slaughtered (the day before the Passover) to agree with John 1:29,36 that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb (In fact lambs were NOT offered up as sacrifices for sin; only rams and goats were).
If the Gospel writers could manipulate the data with so much ease, how can their accounts be reliable ? Each Gospel either contains details known to be incorrect (e.g. that Herod was a king in Mark in Mark 6:14 when in fact he was only a petty tetrach - this is corrected in the other two Synoptic Gospels), or they contradict one another.
The Synoptics have Jesus clearing the Temple at the end of his ministry (Mark 11:15-17 and par.), but John has this at the very beginning (2:13-16). John has Jesus travelling back and forth between Galilee and Jerusalem, but the synoptics have him in Galilee and making the one journey south to Jerusalem ending in his execution. It is impossible to view the four canonical gospels as historical records.
I can give plenty more examples, just ask :)

God DID NOT EVER FOR ONE SECOND make His convenant with Abraham through Ismael. God's covenant went like this:
Abraham-Isaac-Jacob-Israelites..........Gentiles and Jews through the Messiah.

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.
There's the Old Testiment and then the New Testiment.
There is no third testiment.
Refute the article then. Don’t just state your opinion, I’m not concerned in what you believe in unless you can present an argument for your belief. As to the Old and New Testament, we revere them as Holy Books, unfortunately they have been altered and therefore their influence has diminished as it is very hard (if not impossible) to determine what is true and what has been added/omitted by the ‘hand of man’. The Quran is the only pure Word of God. You are welcome to challenge it and I am more than happy to defend it.
I never said I didn't feel sorry that millions of palestinians were removed from Israel, but don't support the suicide bombers.
I symphasize with the innocent Jewish civilians that have been brutally slaughtered by these ""freedom fighters""
It's not like they're just fightimg millitary occupation forces, but they are directly attacking the Jewish populace.
YOU don't see the morality of this situation!
I see you like side-stepping the question. The land belonged to the Palestinian. The Jewish people are/have emigrated to Palestine. They have stolen the land from the Palestinians. The Israeli population are living in a war zone. They do so at their own peril. It is not a good situation, but what can you expect if you take another nation’s land and leave millions in abject poverty living in refugee tents for decades? Now if you take the ‘religious’ argument out (i.e the land of Palestine is for the Jews etc etc) please present a moral case in support of Israel. I am interested to hear how the thief gets the moral high ground over the victim.
The Palestinian’s do not have an army, they fight for their land to remove the occupiers and use whatever means is at their disposal. I admit it is an horrendous situation, but the victims are the Palestinians whose rights have been usurped by the mighty. But it is not the mighty that will inherit the earth :) As to me not understanding the morality of the situation. Well, enlighten me with your argument, but don’t use the Bible as your reference, use philosophical techniques, I am more amenable to them.
This what alot of Mulsims do.
I admit that a lot of the ‘Jihads’ that are taking place are by people that do not understand the rules of Jihad. I dissociate myself completely from them. They are the people like Al-Qaeda and Taliban. They are involved in reprehensible acts and I condemn them in the strongest terms possible. Palestine is a different issue for the reasons I have already outlined.
I percieve that the Jews have the higher moral ground.
Our entire perspective differs, okay.
This doesn't mean I'm a bad Christian, or that your a bad Muslim.
Well show me the logic that led you to this conclusion of Israel having the higher moral ground. Don’t use the Bible, just use logic.

No more or less than other non-Muslims on this site.
I’m not comparing you with other posters. Just an observation based on your posts. You have made no effort to explain your reasons without recourse to the Bible and have not answered many of my questions. I am more than happy to answer your queries but would like you to answer the questions I pose.
I don't hate you or your faith, I simply do not see it as having any valid grounds. Nothing against you, friend.
But you have not presented a case against my beliefs. Have I not answered every question you have posed? Have you been able to refute anything I have posted?
I feel that your faith is based on presumptions, like Jews and Christians corupted their scriptures. This is outrageous.
Yes it is outrageous that the scriptures have been corrupted :) But seriously, refute my posts. My faith is not based on presumptions. You are welcome to question me on my faith and I will openly show you how I have reached my conclusions based on historical as well as religious texts. I use reason and logic as well and do not solely rely on the Quran to explain my views to non-muslims. Can you explain your views without recourse to the Bible?
We love our scriptures like you, and we would be no less inclined to change our scrptures then you would.
But even the priests and bishops of the Christian church acknowledge there have been additions and omissions to the Bible. Shouldn’t you ask them? As to the Quran, there is historical proof it has not been changed. Look at the earliest Quran’s in museums and the ones in circulation now. You will not find one bit of difference in text. All muslims testify to it being the same and it will remain so till the Day of Judgement. This is the promise of God to us all.

Hamza

[Believer]

Peace Hamza Abbass,


well you haven’t really been studying the Bible properly then

I have, and I understand it.
You don't however.
I'll answer a few of your pointers.

Mark 14:61-62--Jesus quoted the prophecy in Daniel 7:13.
This and Matt 16:28 are about the Ascension of the Son of Man into Heaven.
Matt 10:23--have all of the towns of Israel converted to Christianity? They will when Jesus comes back.
Mark 13:30 "generation" is very symbolic here. It means the Jewish people. Before the Jews are destroyed by the evil forces at the end times, Jesus Christ will return and everything will come tp pass.
32, Jesus makes it clear that the time is a complete mystery and they must be ready.

I don't know about the rest, but the Gospels share the essential and consistent message of Jesus as the Lord and Saviour.


Refute the article then. Don’t just state your opinion, I’m not concerned in what you believe in unless you can present an argument for your belief. As to the Old and New Testament, we revere them as Holy Books, unfortunately they have been altered and therefore their influence has diminished as it is very hard (if not impossible) to determine what is true and what has been added/omitted by the ‘hand of man’. The Quran is the only pure Word of God. You are welcome to challenge it and I am more than happy to defend it.


That wasn't my opinion; that's what all Christian believe.
There have been no alterations to the Bible, the Quran just isn't compatable with it.
God did NOT break His covenant with the Jews, He fulfilled it in Christ. Christ has brought salvation to all people.

Isaiah 49
5 And now the LORD says-
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD
and my God has been my strength-
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

7 This is what the LORD says-
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
"Kings will see you and rise up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the LORD , who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you." 8

The prophecies for Jesus Christ stand as testiment to the Bible's inspiration by the Spirit, it's truthfulness, and Jesus Christ Himself as the Lord and Saviour.


The Palestinian’s do not have an army, they fight for their land to remove the occupiers and use whatever means is at their disposal. I admit it is an horrendous situation, but the victims are the Palestinians whose rights have been usurped by the mighty.

Do you really expect the Jews to leave Israel?
They're there to stay, and this should be accepted.


I use reason and logic as well and do not solely rely on the Quran to explain my views to non-muslims. Can you explain your views without recourse to the Bible?


I also use logic and reason, but they differ from yours.
I see suicide bombers killing innocent Jews, and this infames me!
Moreso, 80% of Palestinians support this slaughter.
Only 20% of Palestinians deserve a state--and ironically these are probably the Jewish and Christian Palestinians.

Could you provide me with non-biased, non-Islamic links that give reports on any massive slaughterings of Palestinians by Sharon?


But even the priests and bishops of the Christian church acknowledge there have been additions and omissions to the Bible. Shouldn’t you ask them? As to the Quran, there is historical proof it has not been changed. Look at the earliest Quran’s in museums and the ones in circulation now. You will not find one bit of difference in text. All muslims testify to it being the same and it will remain so till the Day of Judgement. This is the promise of God to us all.


What priests and bishops said this?
We trace our scriptures to the Qumran written 2100 years ago!
The Bible was found to be surprisingly accurate over the years.

The Sikhs' holy book is the Adi Granth.
EVERY copy of the Adi Granth is an exact hand written copy. Every Adi Granth is exactly the same. It is so beautiful is prose and writing in Punjabi, only a few selections were translated into English.
Isn't this spectacular?
Does this mean the Adi Granth is the True Book?


Hamza,
Why don't 10000's of Palestinians peacefully protest in from of Sharon's office--like what Gandhi did to the British, instead of resorting to violence?
You know the old saying "violence begets more viloence"
I see no fruitful outcome when suicide bombers committ their acts.
The Palestinians need a different tactic, a peaceful one.

[LanceThrusterX]

Originally posted by peacedove
assalam-o-alaykum

people continue to ask questions about the authenticity of the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) & of the Quran as a revealed book. They say the the Quran was "written" by the pophet (saws) from Jewish & Christian & other sources.

Does anyone have answers to refute them, or give precise links.

Shukran

I have answers to corraborate that. Does that count? Are you guys hesitant to use search engines? I know some good ones. Just type in something like "Quran sources Christian Jewish". See what comes up, read them, determine if you feel they have any validity.

Here's one that supports Quran: http://admin.muslimsonline.com/~islamawe/Quran/Sources/BBarent.html

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Syph
Of course muhammad was literate, to think otherwise is foolish. The reason muhammad created islam is because both the jews and christians refused to let him study with them. If he tried to study with them it obviously means that he was literate. While he was in the cave he wrote the koran and 'revealed' it to those willing to listen.

Another reason proving the koran is man-made. NOTHING in the koran is new, not a thing. Everything in the koran has already been written in the Torah, or in the mishnah. Any person with biblical study background looking at the document (koran) critically would understand that it is nothing new. Originally posted by Syph
God made his covenant with Abraham (not jacob).

why not jesus christ? because christianity is a just a sect of judaism, nothing more. But the methods the liars... i mean apostles, used in inviting people to convert worked very well with the gullible minds of the time. They have a good message, which although entirely false, worked on the simpletons of 2000 years ago.

Here's the kicker. Jesus said he was god. Thats the problem right there, the mosiach (messiah) is not and will not be god. he will be human. Messiah ben yosef, then finally messiah ben david. its amazing what passes for knowledge

i am suprised he lasted as long as he did on ummah.com

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Believer
Peace,

I believe Muhammed was literate.
He was involved in alot of buisness transactions with his first wife, Khadiyah. khadijah

anyway, both of my grandfathers died at the ages of over 80 yrs old, and never knew how to read or write, he owned 150 acres of land in the south and was relatively successful

before there was a printing press, books were not readily available, and many people didnt have the need to read because there were no books, and newspapers werent that important in daily life