Ali Makes a Decision

[abdulhakeem]

Prophet Muhammad (s) had grown up in the home of his uncle Abu Talib after his parents and his grandfather had died. Abu Talib had looked after him lovingly and taken care that he got a good education and was trained to be a businessman.

But Abu Talib was not rich, and he had many children. When the Prophet Muhammad had grown up and had he and his wife Khadija had their own business, they accepted Abu Talibs youngest son Ali into their family. Thus Ali grew up with the Prophet's own children and soon started to learn the things that would be important for his future profession. At the age of twelve, he nearly was a little businessman himself.

One evening, Ali came home and found the Prophet (s) and Khadija standing there in silence, facing the Kaaba and quietly whispering words. After a while, they bowed down, then they stood straight again, then they knelt down, putting their foreheads on the ground twice, then they stood up again. Ali was amazed and watched them how they repeated the same actions several times. Finally they said a greeting to the right and to the left, and Ali asked, "What are you doing?" "We have been praying," Khadija replied.

Now Ali knew very well that people prayed in different ways. Most people in his home city Maccah frayed to carved idols that they had put up at the Ka'bah, and they also sacrificed animals to them. The Jewish merchants used to assemble on Sabbath to recite long prayers in Hebrew and to read from a scroll. In a similar way, Uncle Waraqa who had become a Christian prayed to the One invisible God, and he read books in strange languages and could tell many stories from the past. But Ali had never seen this kind of prayer. He felt attracted by it and asked, "Why do you pray like that?"

"You remember last Ramadan when we lived in a tent in the desert, don't you?" said Khadijah. Well, this was something Ali would never forget. For the children it was always some kind of vacation to get out of the hot and dusty citiy for a couple of weeks and live in the desert like the Bedouins. But last time, something had happened the adults never talked about even though it must have been very impressive for them. Ali sensed that it had to do with this kind of prayer. He nodded.

The Prophet Muhammad (s) then told him about his experience in Ramadan. He had walked out into the desert quite some distance away from the family camp. There he had sat down in a cave in order to think. Maccah was a rich city, but there was a lot of injustice and selfishness. Many of the rich merchants misused their power in order to oppress and to deceive the poor. Some men in certain influential families even believed that their gods had chosen them and given them special rights. Muhammad and his friends had often tried to protect the poor and to help them to get their rights. Once, during an epidemics, Khadija had opened a hospital for people who did not have enough money to pay a doctor. And even the children had often shared their food with the orphans. But all this seemed so little when most inhabitants of the city only thought of themselves.

So the Prophet Muhammad (s) had been sitting and thinking when an angel had talked to him and gave him a message from God. He had been very shaken because it is a great responsibility to bring God's message to the people. But the angel had also taught him to remember, in prayer, that God does not leave His sincere servants to themselves. "This is when we started to pray like this," the Prophet (s) finished his story. "Whben we stand, we remember the words of God's message. And we do not only thank Him with words but bow and prostrate with all our body. We also remember former messengers of God and ask for blessings and peace for them. And finally we give the whole world, right and left, a greeting of peace."

Ali had listened thoughtfully. Wouldn't it be great if people listened to God's message and be honest, friendly and helpful to each other instead of thinking only of themselves; if the rich shared their wealth with the poor and deal justly; if peope didn't have to be afraid because they always remembered that God is there to protect us?

Ali said, "Tomorrow I will ask my father if he agrees that I become a servant of God like you."

In this night, Ali lay awake for a long time. What if his father would not permit him to be a servant of God? Perhaps he would say that a servant of God cannot be a successful businessman. Uncle Waraqa was an example of a servant of God who lived like a poor man and fasted much and had no wife and no children. But Muhammad was a servant of God and a businessman at the same time, even one who was known for his honesty and generosity all over the city. Finally he was overtaken by sleep.

Next morning, Ali said, "I have thought about it. God did not ask my father when He created me. So I think I do nor have to ask my father when I want to be God's servant."

[alizadeh2000]

Very interesting indeed. "Ali said 'Why do you pray like that'?"
so you are implying that Ali (AS) was a polytheist(naoudubillah), just like some people say that the father and mother of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) were polytheists (naoudubillah)

Tell me, where do you get this stuff?
what is the authority of this alleged story?

Do you know about the status of Ali (AS), according to Ahmad ibn Hanbal?


Hadith al Nur:
Fourteen thousand years before Adam - upon whom be peace - was created, I and `Ali were a light in the presence of God. When God created Adam - upon whom be peace - He divided it into two parts. I am one of the parts and `Ali is the other part


narrations:


Al_Muhibb al_Tabari narrates this tradition on the authority of Salman from the Prophet (S ) in al_Riyad al_nadirah, ii, 163;

Ahmad ibn Hanbal in al_Fada'il;

Sibt ibn al_Jawzi in Tadhkirat al_khawass, 46;

Abu Hatim Muhammad ibn Idris al_Razi in Zayn al_fata fi tafsir Surat
Hal ata, MS.;
`Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal in Zawa'id manaqib Amir al_Mu'minin, MS.,

also Ibn Mardawayh, Ibn `Abd al_Barr, al_Khatib al_Baghdadi, Ibn al_Maghazili

[awara_jawan/qaatil]

Abu-bakre siddique, phirr Umar bin el-khattab, phir Uthmaan bin affan, phir Ali.

[.: Anna :.]

why does asking why they pray like that make him a polythesist?? it says he had not seen prayer like that before...so maybe he just wanted to understand

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by anna2000uk
why does asking why they pray like that make him a polythesist?? it says he had not seen prayer like that before...so maybe he just wanted to understand

Your right its quite natural for anyone to question someone going up and down on their knees, especially if they are just a kid. Im presuming that alizadeh2000 is one of those extremist shias who beleive Ali is some sort of super human being.

[Hamza Abbass]

Hi Anna,
why does asking why they pray like that make him a polythesist?? it says he had not seen prayer like that before...so maybe he just wanted to understand

It’s because Shia’s do not believe that Ali (as) was a revert. He was born a muslim, just like the prophet was born a muslim. They never prayed to any other god but Allah (swt).

Hamza

[alizadeh2000]

And the same goes for the parents of the Prophet PBUH, and his grandparents including Hadrath Abdul Muttalib(AS).



Originally posted by Hamza Abbass
Hi Anna,


It’s because Shia’s do not believe that Ali (as) was a revert. He was born a muslim, just like the prophet was born a muslim. They never prayed to any other god but Allah (swt).

Hamza

[alizadeh2000]

The Hadith i quoted above is not by some "Extremeist Shia" but its reported by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal of one of the four Sunni "madhabs".


Originally posted by Ali_Khan
Your right its quite natural for anyone to question someone going up and down on their knees, especially if they are just a kid. Im presuming that alizadeh2000 is one of those extremist shias who beleive Ali is some sort of super human being.

[Hamza Abbass]

Alizadeh,
And the same goes for the parents of the Prophet PBUH, and his grandparents including Hadrath Abdul Muttalib(AS).
yes I agree with that as well. One point though: Hadrath Abdul Muttalib(AS) should be (ra) and not (as) as they were not an Imam.

Hamza

[.: Anna :.]

Originally posted by Hamza Abbass
Hi Anna,


It’s because Shia’s do not believe that Ali (as) was a revert. He was born a muslim, just like the prophet was born a muslim. They never prayed to any other god but Allah (swt).

Hamza yeah but everyone is born a muslim really...i mean do muslim kids automatically know how 2 do salat exactly? no they have to be taught innit, u dont necessarily know the right way to worship if u havent been shown or seen it before but it doesnt mean you dont believe in only one God or that u worship other than Allah
well, maybe i'm wrong but thats how i see it, i dunno, may allah 4give me if i said something wrong

[outlandish]

Originally posted by anna2000uk
yeah but everyone is born a muslim really...i mean do muslim kids automatically know how 2 do salat exactly? no they have to be taught innit, u dont necessarily know the right way to worship if u havent been shown or seen it before but it doesnt mean you dont believe in only one God or that u worship other than Allah
well, maybe i'm wrong but thats how i see it, i dunno, may allah 4give me if i said something wrong
yep very well said ukhti :)
shias always like to attribute everything to ali(raz), even something which is reserved for prophets only,may Allah guide them ameen

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Anna,
yeah but everyone is born a muslim really...i mean do muslim kids automatically know how 2 do salat exactly? no they have to be taught innit, u dont necessarily know the right way to worship if u havent been shown or seen it before but it doesnt mean you dont believe in only one God or that u worship other than Allah
well, maybe i'm wrong but thats how i see it, i dunno, may allah 4give me if i said something wrong
mmm, you are equating the muslims of this world with Ali (as). For Shia’s, Ali (as) is the first Imam and is only second to the prophet (saw) himself. If you so wish I can give you more details via PM as I don’t want to get into a Shia Wahaabi debate.

Now Outlandish,
shias always like to attribute everything to ali(raz), even something which is reserved for prophets only,may Allah guide them ameen
lol, ignorance speaks through Outlandish. We do not demean or belittle the attributes of Ali (as). I can justify every single bit of my belief from the Quran and Sunnah. You are welcome to challenge me on anything. Pick up the gauntlet, if you are able, if not, go back to your corner.

Hamza (just a little bit of flexing, nothing to get too concerned about :) )

[Brother_Daniel]

alizadeh2000 why do you have to create so much fitnah? And when did Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal say that? And if you are going to listen to Imam Hanbal on that why not other things? Sounds like a Christian or Jew picking what to like and rejecting what they don't like from their scriptures?

[Ayah]

Originally posted by awara_jawan
Abu-bakre siddique, phirr Umar bin el-khattab, phir Uthmaan bin affan, phir Ali.

Rather than debating on this subject, I was just wondering what the word "phir" means???

~Ayah

[alizadeh2000]

Brother Daniel, i would like to say that i hope your chechnya gains its independence soon.

I quoted the book of Ahmad bin Hanbal titled "Al Fadhail", so don't ask me where he said that.

First of all, do not equate bin Hanbal to the holy scriptures. I believe that ibn Hanbal is not Allah (i dont know about your belief), so there is no requirement for me to believe in all that he says or ibn hanbal's "scriptures".

secondly, I do not subscribe to the aqeedah of ibn Hanbal because i consider his aqeedah to be far from the real teachings of Islam as taught by the Prophet PBUH and the Ahle Bayt.

However, it is obvious that he is right on one thing, because he was one of the reporters of Hadith al-Nur. This hadith is reported by other people also, as I mentioned.

Ali (AS) is not a sahaba, but an Imam of the AhleBayt. After the Prophet PBUH, he is the best authority on Islam because:

1) he was brought up in the lap of the Prophet PBUH
2) he lived in the house of the Prophet PBUH
3) he was married to the daughter of the Prophet PBUH, and therefore had access to the best of Islamic knowledge
4) he was the CLOSEST with the Prophet PBUH, his light was the same. (hadith al Nur). He and the Prophet PBUH were not different, they were of the same source, the same light. (read the hadith again).

Therefore, there is no one like Imam Ali (AS). No one can be compared to him.

[Hamza Abbass]

Salaam Ayah,
Rather than debating on this subject, I was just wondering what the word "phir" means???
it means then

Allah Hafiz
Hamza

[outlandish]

Originally posted by Hamza Abbass

Now Outlandish,

lol, ignorance speaks through Outlandish. We do not demean or belittle the attributes of Ali (as). I can justify every single bit of my belief from the Quran and Sunnah. You are welcome to challenge me on anything. Pick up the gauntlet, if you are able, if not, go back to your corner.

Hamza (just a little bit of flexing, nothing to get too concerned about :) )
If its so ignorance, why use (as) for ali while he was not a prophet, yep I know now u will come up with,no its not reserved for prophets only,I know u dont demean or whatever about Ali, but sure u exaggerate so much, make him out to be some super human being, or even excel the prophet, I am sure if Ali were alive how happy he would be to see this,and ur kind sorry to say
Take a hike now, next time unless u have something good to say, dont respond to me, I had to contain myself a lot while responding to u, since I totaly dont like u at all, not coz ur a shia, I have seen some good ones, but ur an ,well lets not go there. I have seen how deceiving and clever u get while trying to debate,twisting words and calling names, this response is a perfect example of that as well, first if u learn some manners than I will considor debating with u,else keep in ur ignorance, I am sure on the day of judgement we all will know whom was right and wrong. For me Allah and the prophet, and the source of guidance the prophet has left behind is enough, not ur versions of it. You were banned before Umar Rashid, keep this attitude up and I am sure it will happen again...
Yeah I am sure u can justify every belief with ur twisted versions of the quran and sunnah, I am sure u excel in that, as in all the other things u excel as well.:rolleyes:

[outlandish]

Originally posted by alizadeh2000
Brother Daniel, i would like to say that i hope your chechnya gains its independence soon.

I quoted the book of Ahmad bin Hanbal titled "Al Fadhail", so don't ask me where he said that.

First of all, do not equate bin Hanbal to the holy scriptures. I believe that ibn Hanbal is not Allah (i dont know about your belief), so there is no requirement for me to believe in all that he says or ibn hanbal's "scriptures".

secondly, I do not subscribe to the aqeedah of ibn Hanbal because i consider his aqeedah to be far from the real teachings of Islam as taught by the Prophet PBUH and the Ahle Bayt.

However, it is obvious that he is right on one thing, because he was one of the reporters of Hadith al-Nur. This hadith is reported by other people also, as I mentioned.

Ali (AS) is not a sahaba, but an Imam of the AhleBayt. After the Prophet PBUH, he is the best authority on Islam because:

1) he was brought up in the lap of the Prophet PBUH
2) he lived in the house of the Prophet PBUH
3) he was married to the daughter of the Prophet PBUH, and therefore had access to the best of Islamic knowledge
4) he was the CLOSEST with the Prophet PBUH, his light was the same. (hadith al Nur). He and the Prophet PBUH were not different, they were of the same source, the same light. (read the hadith again).

Therefore, there is no one like Imam Ali (AS). No one can be compared to him.
What part of the NO SECT DEBATE is it u dont get?why start each time?Is it so hard to comprehend?
And if u say ur not a follower of bin Hanbal, than why use his writings,and only those ones which suit u?
:rolleyes:

[Hamza Abbass]

Hello Outlandish, there there there. I’ve put your toys back in the pram :)
If its so ignorance, why use (as) for ali while he was not a prophet, yep I know now u will come up with,no its not reserved for prophets only
For Shia’s, Hazrat Ali (as) is an Imam. He is the first of the 12 that the prophet has mentioned the last being the Mahdi. When the Mahdi comes he will be followed by Isa (as) in prayer. Shia’s consider the Mahdi’s rank to be superior to Isa’s (as). Imam’s in Shia theology are infallible and the main difference between them and the prophets is the prophet’s reveal the message of Allah (swt) whereas the Imams guide the ummah on the message of Allah (swt). To prevent bidah being introduced Allah (swt) has made the Imam’s infallible like the prophet Muhammed (saw). This, very briefly is what Shia’s believe about the 12 Imam’s, and this is why they have (as) after their names.
I know u dont demean or whatever about Ali, but sure u exaggerate so much, make him out to be some super human being, or even excel the prophet, I am sure if Ali were alive how happy he would be to see this,and ur kind sorry to say
astagfirullah!! I have never extolled the virtues of Ali (as) above the prophet’s!! Just goes to show how much you understand. Ali (as) is second to the prophet. Allah (swt) knows why I believe what I believe. I have my eyes and ears open. I have read the Quran and the hadith with an open mind and heart. I am not speaking form ignorance, but I am speaking from having studied Islam in great detail. For me there is only one sect, and that is Shiaism. I say this after carefully examining the facts and rationality leads me to this conclusion. Now you are quick in being derogatory, but you don’t have the ilm to back up your beliefs. Isn’t that rather stupid of you? judging without understanding?
Take a hike now, next time unless u have something good to say, dont respond to me
lol, I always have something good to say to you :) You just don’t realise it :)
I had to contain myself a lot while responding to u, since I totaly dont like u at all, not coz ur a shia, I have seen some good ones, but ur an ,well lets not go there.
lol you should let it all out, you’ll feel better. It’s never good to keep things bottled up. Now you don’t like me because I continually pull you up on your comments. If you say something derogatory about someone’s faith, at least back it up with why you believe it to be the case. When you post your throwaway lines, expect to be challenged. It’s no good you crying afterwards. Don’t be naughty in the first place and I won’t smack your legs :)
I have seen how deceiving and clever u get while trying to debate,twisting words and calling names, this response is a perfect example of that as well, first if u learn some manners than I will considor debating with u,else keep in ur ignorance
:) Outlandish, you do like ‘bigging me up’ Thank you :) Oh, I’ve just twisted your words haven’t I? Schucks, what can I say, I just see the good in you, but you were being derogatory :) Now as to me having manners, I have a saying: I treat people as they deserve to be treated. Take that as you will
I am sure on the day of judgement we all will know whom was right and wrong.
yes you are right (for once :) ), but you will not be able to use ignorance as your defence.
For me Allah and the prophet, and the source of guidance the prophet has left behind is enough, not ur versions of it.
lol, I follow the Quran and the Sunnah. Tell me what is wrong with that. I have challenged you to show me where I have strayed from these two fundamental bases. You seem to have declined the offer so there is nothing more to be said. As I have said, I rely on these two for my beliefs. You are welcome to debate with me any time any place anywhere.
You were banned before Umar Rashid, keep this attitude up and I am sure it will happen again...
Everyone is so quick to ban when they have lost the argument. Tell me what I have done. Just because I belittle you (quite easy to do) for attacking my faith without providing any evidence for your assertions? I have the right to reply to your comments as do you. It just so happens I’m better at it than you and you then go off in a sulk. That is your problem, and you will have to deal with your own deficiencies. It is of no concern to me. I only defend my faith from attacks nothng more, but also, nothing less.
Yeah I am sure u can justify every belief with ur twisted versions of the quran and sunnah, I am sure u excel in that, as in all the other things u excel as well
There you go again! You call it twisted. Bring your case to why my beliefs are twisted? Do not regurgitate something that someone has told you. They will not be there defending you on the Day of Judgement. Read for yourself! I may excel in some things and I don’t in others. But thanks for the compliment :)

Hamza (putting a wailing Outlandish back in his pram)