Who is a kafir

[marjan]

Salaam, to everyone
I'm not to sure who wrote the answer here (very bad practice, I know) but I believe that it gives an interesting point of view.
From
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/octq22y1.html


Question: Who is a Kafir? How can a Christian be a Kafir and still be from among the People of the book?
Answer: A person becomes a Kafir when he denies the truth in spite of being convinced that it is the truth. Since it is humanly impossible for a person to determine whether some person is denying the truth or not, it is only on the basis of information provided by the Almighty that a person can be called a Kafir. In the times of His Rusul, He chose to impart this information to his Rusul through Wahi; however, after the departure of the last Rasul Muhammad (sws), people who have knowingly denied the truth cannot be pinpointed since the institution of Wahi has been terminated. No Muslim preacher is in a position to reveal the truth in a manner a Rasul is able to, nor can he ascertain who among his addressees is guilty of knowingly denying the truth. After the Prophet (sws), only on the Day of Judgement will it now be known whether a particular person is a Kafir or not.
It is evident from this explanation that the Christians and Jews and followers of other religions in times after the Prophet (sws) are not Kafirs; the right name for them is non-Muslims. As far as Christians are concerned, it is to be noted that they are basically followers of monotheism. They never admit to polytheism, though they are involved in it. A person becomes a polytheist when he openly admits that he is a polytheist, even though he may be practising polytheism in some form; the reason is that a person might be doing something wrong without realizing what he is doing; Christians, whether of today or from the period of Jesus (sws), have never admitted to polytheism. Trinity to them is in accordance with monotheism. Of course, we do not agree with them, but unless they realize it, we can only say that in spite of claiming to be monotheists they are involved in polytheism. Their case is the case of a Muslim who goes to the grave of a saint to ask him to grant a wish; we shall not call such a Muslim a polytheist; we shall tell him that what he is doing is something against monotheism to which he himself strongly claims adherence. Similarly, we shall not call Christians polytheists, but we will keep telling them that what they are doing is not in accordance with monotheism.
It is precisely for this reason that the Qur’an never referred to the People of the Book as polytheists though they subscribed to certain blatant forms of polytheism. The Qur’an only called the Ismaelites ( Marjan: The Arab pagans of the time, I believe) as polytheists because they admittedly subscribed and testified to the creed of polytheism. They strongly advocated that polytheism was the very religion the Almighty had revealed and claimed that they were the strong adherents to this religion.

[Justcurious]

Marjan: "Who is a Kafir? How can a Christian be a Kafir and still be from among the People of the book?
Answer: A person becomes a Kafir when he denies the truth in spite of being convinced that it is the truth."

Good question. An agnostic finds this impossible to answer. But it must be difficult also for those who think they know what the truth is. There's so little evidence.

[Raven]

Who is an "infidel?"

[Jael]

Infidel = During the Crusades, Muslims called Christians infidels because they would not accept their faith.
So plain and simple; People that does not accept Islam is called an Infidel.

Kafir = Is someone that does not accept the religion of Islam or the Quran as the truth; and believes in God's Holy Words from the Bible as the Only Truth.

These are meaningless words to Christians as they have the Holy Spirit as their guide, and their conscience is clear from any guilt trying to be imposed upon them. That is how they are still called the people of the Book, The Bible.

Jael

[Bilal]

Kafir is the Arabic meaning of infidels ;)

During the crusaders wars, the western Christian called the Muslims as ''paganism'' and they called the Jews as ‘’murders of Jesus’’, therefore they should be killed in the name of Jesus, exactly as Jushua did in the Old Testament.


Originally posted by Jael
Infidel = During the Crusades, Muslims called Christians infidels because they would not accept their faith.
So plain and simple; People that does not accept Islam is called an Infidel.

Kafir = Is someone that does not accept the religion of Islam or the Quran as the truth; and believes in God's Holy Words from the Bible as the Only Truth.

These are meaningless words to Christians as they have the Holy Spirit as their guide, and their conscience is clear from any guilt trying to be imposed upon them. That is how they are still called the people of the Book, The Bible.

Jael

[bhibbakyalibnen]

Christain belive at Jesus ALLAH so in my eyes that make them Kafir .

There is no God but ALLAH and Muhammad peace be on his name is his last messenger.

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Raven
Who is an "infidel?"

Someone who feels he/she is against fidel, such as Fidel Castro of Cuba!

[qaatil]

if u dont beleive in quran and finality of RasoolAllahs prophethood u r kaafir
there r no ppl other than those who beleive in the pillars who r muslim

[Raven]

Originally posted by Justcurious
Someone who feels he/she is against fidel, such as Fidel Castro of Cuba!

"Not only is he famous, he is in-famous."

-The Three Amigos

[AbuMubarak]

qaradawi (and his like) have said about the Christians, "Then all of the affairs are shared between us since we are the sons of a single land, our destination is the same and our Ummah is one. I say about them, ‘Our Christian brothers’ and some people reject this from me and say how can I say that they are our Christian brothers? [Allaah says] "Verily the Believers are but a single brotherhood". Yes, we are believers and they are believers from another angle". (Programme for Sharee’ah and Life, in the lecture Non-Muslims in Light of the Sharee’ah, dated 12/10/97 in Qunaat.)

1. It is an issue of consensus (Ijmaa3) that every single non-Muslim is a Kaafir. Whether that non-Muslim is a jew, christain, buddhist, communist, atheist, hindu, etc. He or she is a Kaafir, whether or not he heard the message of Islaam, and whether or not he had the ability to hear the message.

2. Ahl al-Kitaab (People of the Book) are a specific type of Kaafir group. Just like if we call someone a Dhaalim (oppressor), this does not negate the fact he is also a Faasiq (sinner).

3. Ahl al-Fatrah is a term that refers to the people who lived prior to the Message of Muhammad (Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa 3alaa Aalihee wa Sallam) who did not receive the message of Islaam. Some scholars say the period of Fatrah can reoccur, which means even after the Prophethood of Muhammad (Sallallaahu 3alayhi wa 3alaa Aalihee wa Sallam), people can exist who the Message did not reach. They still label Ahl al-Fatrah as Kuffaar.

4. The scholars differ over the one who dies as a Kaafir, but the Message of Islaam did not reach him, nor was he capable of reaching it. Some of them say he is punished in Hellfire, irregardless (which is the weaker view). Others say that he will be tested on the Day of Judgement, ruling him to be similar to those who were deaf, insane, or senile, as mentioned in another Hadeeth. This seems to be the stronger view, due to the Qur'aanic verses where Allaah describes that He does not punish a people until sending them a Messenger. But they still label the one who is a non-Muslim as a Kaafir

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by Bilal
Kafir is the Arabic meaning of infidels ;)

During the crusaders wars, the western Christian called the Muslims as ''paganism'' and they called the Jews as ‘’murders of Jesus’’, therefore they should be killed in the name of Jesus, exactly as Jushua did in the Old Testament.

No Christians never called Muslims paganistics. The Church refered to muslims at the time as heretics, mohammedans or sarceans. The Jews, the Church never called Murders of Jesus. Yes the jews AT THE TIME of Jesus were partly responsible, not the Jews a generation after or now.

[christfollower]

Kafir=me!

[MorphRC]

lol Follower. How can you be a disbeliever in something that isnt true?

[christfollower]

The same way you can look someone in the face that is lying to you, and say "I don't believe you!"

Mewwy Chwistmas!

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by christfollower
The same way you can look someone in the face that is lying to you, and say "I don't believe you!"

Mewwy Chwistmas!

Thats different than call them derogatory names.. Bro

[christfollower]

Kafir is no more derogatory than whatever term Protestants or Catholics use for unbelievers. Its a term a real kafir should wear proudly.
Abu Mubarak gave a great definition of a kafir.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by christfollower
Kafir is no more derogatory than whatever term Protestants or Catholics use for unbelievers. Its a term a real kafir should wear proudly.
Abu Mubarak gave a great definition of a kafir.

Yes it is different. For one Kafir implies you are lower class, subhuman etc. The Church has never used such a term. Infidel means a unbeliever, but it doesnt mean that ur subhuman or in a lower class Bro..

[christfollower]

Nothing to do with class, everything to do with muslim or non-muslim.
_____________________________
It is an issue of consensus (Ijmaa3) that every single non-Muslim is a Kaafir. Whether that non-Muslim is a jew, christain, buddhist, communist, atheist, hindu, etc. He or she is a Kaafir, whether or not he heard the message of Islaam, and whether or not he had the ability to hear the message.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by christfollower
Nothing to do with class, everything to do with muslim or non-muslim.
_____________________________
It is an issue of consensus (Ijmaa3) that every single non-Muslim is a Kaafir. Whether that non-Muslim is a jew, christain, buddhist, communist, atheist, hindu, etc. He or she is a Kaafir, whether or not he heard the message of Islaam, and whether or not he had the ability to hear the message.

Obviously you do not care for the status of a person so I will leave this,until you learn about statue of people and their relationship with God..

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by marjan
Salaam, to everyone
I'm not to sure who wrote the answer here (very bad practice, I know) but I believe that it gives an interesting point of view.
From
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/octq22y1.html


Question: Who is a Kafir? How can a Christian be a Kafir and still be from among the People of the book?
Answer: A person becomes a Kafir when he denies the truth in spite of being convinced that it is the truth. Since it is humanly impossible for a person to determine whether some person is denying the truth or not, it is only on the basis of information provided by the Almighty that a person can be called a Kafir. In the times of His Rusul, He chose to impart this information to his Rusul through Wahi; however, after the departure of the last Rasul Muhammad (sws), people who have knowingly denied the truth cannot be pinpointed since the institution of Wahi has been terminated. No Muslim preacher is in a position to reveal the truth in a manner a Rasul is able to, nor can he ascertain who among his addressees is guilty of knowingly denying the truth. After the Prophet (sws), only on the Day of Judgement will it now be known whether a particular person is a Kafir or not.
It is evident from this explanation that the Christians and Jews and followers of other religions in times after the Prophet (sws) are not Kafirs; the right name for them is non-Muslims. As far as Christians are concerned, it is to be noted that they are basically followers of monotheism. They never admit to polytheism, though they are involved in it. A person becomes a polytheist when he openly admits that he is a polytheist, even though he may be practising polytheism in some form; the reason is that a person might be doing something wrong without realizing what he is doing; Christians, whether of today or from the period of Jesus (sws), have never admitted to polytheism. Trinity to them is in accordance with monotheism. Of course, we do not agree with them, but unless they realize it, we can only say that in spite of claiming to be monotheists they are involved in polytheism. Their case is the case of a Muslim who goes to the grave of a saint to ask him to grant a wish; we shall not call such a Muslim a polytheist; we shall tell him that what he is doing is something against monotheism to which he himself strongly claims adherence. Similarly, we shall not call Christians polytheists, but we will keep telling them that what they are doing is not in accordance with monotheism.
It is precisely for this reason that the Qur’an never referred to the People of the Book as polytheists though they subscribed to certain blatant forms of polytheism. The Qur’an only called the Ismaelites ( Marjan: The Arab pagans of the time, I believe) as polytheists because they admittedly subscribed and testified to the creed of polytheism. They strongly advocated that polytheism was the very religion the Almighty had revealed and claimed that they were the strong adherents to this religion.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Whoever wrote this article is trying to confuse Muslims. All of his non-sense arguement can be refuted by this Ayah in the Quran:


47. O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed (The Quran), confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
(Surah an-Nisah)

If this Ayah does not make them Kafir, then nothing will.

[Believer]

Originally posted by mohabdul
Whoever wrote this article is trying to confuse Muslims. All of his non-sense arguement can be refuted by this Ayah in the Quran:


47. O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed (The Quran), confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
(Surah an-Nisah)

If this Ayah does not make them Kafir, then nothing will.


The Quran does not confirm what we believe; it denies our beliefs and tries mislead others from what has already been confirmed. You are the Kafir. The decision of God has already been carried out through Jesus Christ. He is the Seal of the Prophets, the promised Messiah.
We People of the Book will not submit to the Quran!

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by Believer

We People of the Book will not submit to the Quran!

Thats great Believer--Islam is gaining much popularity in the West, even if you personally don't--many others will find their way to the Yellow Brick Road:p .

[Believer]

Originally posted by AhmedSyed
Thats great Believer--Islam is gaining much popularity in the West, even if you personally don't--many others will find their way to the Yellow Brick Road:p .

Mostly with African-Americans for some reason.
90% of the converts to Islam are blacks.

But actually recent polls show a drop in ratings for Islam.
9-11 and recent terrorist activities has really turned down Islam's ratings in the West. Your brothers better lighten up, you're loosing ground. :p

There are plenty of polls out there on the Net.

http://www.whatthenationthinks.com/UK/results.asp?PollID=6198

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by Believer
The Quran does not confirm what we believe; it denies our beliefs and tries mislead others from what has already been confirmed. You are the Kafir. The decision of God has already been carried out through Jesus Christ. He is the Seal of the Prophets, the promised Messiah.
We People of the Book will not submit to the Quran!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are right the Quran does not conifrm your corrupted form of the Torah and Injil, but it confirms the orginal ones that were sent to Moses and Jesus respectively.

Plus, you said that Jesus is the Seal of the Prophets, where does it say in your Bible(s)??? Or are just trying to copy what the Quran say?? That is so childish!!!

As far as not submitting, it is upto you. Just remember this Ayah, it tells you what you will be saying when you are ready to be thrown in the fire:


Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever (Kafir) will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were dust!"
(Surah an-Naba)


Please, understand we are not here trying to wish you Hellfire. We are merely warning you and others of the truth. This is not a competition.

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by Believer
Mostly with African-Americans for some reason.
90% of the converts to Islam are blacks.

But actually recent polls show a drop in ratings for Islam.
9-11 and recent terrorist activities has really turned down Islam's ratings in the West. Your brothers better lighten up, you're loosing ground. :p

There are plenty of polls out there on the Net.

http://www.whatthenationthinks.com/UK/results.asp?PollID=6198
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right about most being Black-Americans. I sense that you are insinuating that it cannot be the truth since most who are converting are Blacks???

Bythe way , Whites are catching too. Specially the white women are finding more liberation in Islam that ever before.

Check some of these stories:

http://www.thetruereligion.net/mimima.htm

http://www.thetruereligion.net/newface.htm

http://www.thetruereligion.net/mum.htm

http://www.thetruereligion.net/femaleconverts.htm

http://www.thetruereligion.net/ukconverts.htm



Look at what happened to the conversions after Sep. 11th:

http://www.thetruereligion.net/convertwave.htm

http://www.thetruereligion.net/afterattack.htm

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by AhmedSyed
Thats great Believer--Islam is gaining much popularity in the West, even if you personally don't--many others will find their way to the Yellow Brick Road:p .

Actually Ahmed Bro. Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the US Now.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are right the Quran does not conifrm your corrupted form of the Torah and Injil, but it confirms the orginal ones that were sent to Moses and Jesus respectively.

Plus, you said that Jesus is the Seal of the Prophets, where does it say in your Bible(s)??? Or are just trying to copy what the Quran say?? That is so childish!!!

As far as not submitting, it is upto you. Just remember this Ayah, it tells you what you will be saying when you are ready to be thrown in the fire:


Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever (Kafir) will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were dust!"
(Surah an-Naba)


Please, understand we are not here trying to wish you Hellfire. We are merely warning you and others of the truth. This is not a competition.

Bro a book that is to complete previous revelations, MUST NOT CONTRADICT everything. The Qur'an cannot be the last revelation.

For one.

No Priesthood.
No Passover.
No Confession.
No Viewable stimulation.
No Temple or Church.
No Authority on which everything is decided.
No Supreme Council [High Priests, Juda / Papacy, RC ]
No Eucharist
No Confirmation

The Qur'an contradicts the Bible.

Issac was to be sacraficed not Ishmael.
Jesus was Cruxified not Judas.
Hagar wasnt married, Qur'an, Islamic Doctrine, She was.
Love your neighbour as yourself. Islam does not.
Love your enemy, Islam does not.
God is Love : GOd loves who He wants [Islam]
Confession to a Priest : No Priesthood in Islam.
Christ instituted the eucharist [John 6-54] : No Eucharist, or Passover.
Mary was at the foot of the cross : Jesus wasnt cruxified therefore she wasnt.

That is just some of what Judaism, Catholicism and Islam DO NOT have incommon. In Islam, God did a total backflip on everything else in the Qur'an. Still I have yet to see certain proof, from Islamic, and also non-Islamic sources which say that the Bible of today could not have possible been the one handed down by God to the Jews, and the NT from Christ to us. Where is your proof?

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by MorphRC
Actually Ahmed Bro. Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the US Now.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you got it wrong. Mormonism is the fastest growing sect of Christianity in the US.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you got it wrong. Mormonism is the fastest growing sect of Christianity in the US.

No youre wrong. Research into mormonism Bro. Does Mainstream christianity teach we become gods like in mormonism? NO! They aint Christian, they have a false prophet called Jospeh smith, does christianity have a prophet called JS? No. Is Jesus 3 different people, one God one satan and one human? No, does Christianity teach that only Mormonism is the way to eternal life? No.

DO SOME RESEARCH BRO!

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by MorphRC
Bro a book that is to complete previous revelations, MUST NOT CONTRADICT everything. The Qur'an cannot be the last revelation.

For one.

No Priesthood.
No Passover.
No Confession.
No Viewable stimulation.
No Temple or Church.
No Authority on which everything is decided.
No Supreme Council [High Priests, Juda / Papacy, RC ]
No Eucharist
No Confirmation

The Qur'an contradicts the Bible.

Issac was to be sacraficed not Ishmael.
Jesus was Cruxified not Judas.
Hagar wasnt married, Qur'an, Islamic Doctrine, She was.
Love your neighbour as yourself. Islam does not.
Love your enemy, Islam does not.
God is Love : GOd loves who He wants [Islam]
Confession to a Priest : No Priesthood in Islam.
Christ instituted the eucharist [John 6-54] : No Eucharist, or Passover.
Mary was at the foot of the cross : Jesus wasnt cruxified therefore she wasnt.

That is just some of what Judaism, Catholicism and Islam DO NOT have incommon. In Islam, God did a total backflip on everything else in the Qur'an. Still I have yet to see certain proof, from Islamic, and also non-Islamic sources which say that the Bible of today could not have possible been the one handed down by God to the Jews, and the NT from Christ to us. Where is your proof?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, you are NOT getting it. How many times do we, MUSLIMS, need to tell you guys, that we DO NOT CONSIDER YOUR BIBLE (S) AS THE PREVIOUS REVELATIONS !!! The previous revelations sent to Moses and Jesus DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL according to us. What you have is something you guys wrote with your own hands and still continue to write and there are not from Allah.

Allah tells:

79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
(Surah al-Baqarah)

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously, you are NOT getting it. How many times do we, MUSLIMS, need to tell you guys, that we DO NOT CONSIDER YOUR BIBLE (S) AS THE PREVIOUS REVELATIONS !!! The previous revelations sent to Moses and Jesus DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL according to us. What you have is something you guys wrote with your own hands and still continue to write and there are not from Allah.

Allah tells:

79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
(Surah al-Baqarah)

I know! Where is your historical proof? As a matter of fact where is ANY historical proof for anything that Islam created? bro

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by MorphRC
No youre wrong. Research into mormonism Bro. Does Mainstream christianity teach we become gods like in mormonism? NO! They aint Christian, they have a false prophet called Jospeh smith, does christianity have a prophet called JS? No. Is Jesus 3 different people, one God one satan and one human? No, does Christianity teach that only Mormonism is the way to eternal life? No.

DO SOME RESEARCH BRO!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They call themselves Christians. Thats what we know. Just like most of the Protestants in the US do not consider Catholic Christians, does that mean we do not consider you Christians??

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They call themselves Christians. Thats what we know. Just like most of the Protestants in the US do not consider Catholic Christians, does that mean we do not consider you Christians??

Oh Well that is brilliant Logic Bro! Sufis call themselves Muslims, but their not, but since they say so, Ill belief them.

Protestants claim a lot of things, just like Islam does, and hinduism, but it has nothing to back it up with. Protestants pervert history to suite them, for instance they say:

The Reformation [Revolt] was God-plan against the Catholic Church, He abandoned it, and joined Protestantism. Well firstly, Protestantism, what does that mean, it means to protest, a Protestant is a protester, what are they protesting against? The Catholic Church. Now, why would God make the Catholic Church, promise it Papal Infalliability, His protection, Judgment forever, and then go and protest against it?

Look forward to your answer.

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by MorphRC
I know! Where is your historical proof? As a matter of fact where is ANY historical proof for anything that Islam created? bro
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be really blind if you are seriously asking for historical proof !!!! But then this is what the Quran tells us:


2:171 The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.
(Surah al-Baqarah)

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be really blind if you are seriously asking for historical proof !!!! But then this is what the Quran tells us:


2:171 The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat-herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom.
(Surah al-Baqarah)

You're quoting the Qur'an to me, and expect me to care Bro?
I know you aint dumb!

I am blind for asking for historical proof?
Can you yes or no give me historical proof, whether from a Islamic site, or from a Encyclopedia?

If you answer again with, I can believe your asking that, or you quote something from the Qur'an, Ill take that as a No Bro.

[mohabdul]

Originally posted by MorphRC
You're quoting the Qur'an to me, and expect me to care Bro?
I know you aint dumb!

I am blind for asking for historical proof?
Can you yes or no give me historical proof, whether from a Islamic site, or from a Encyclopedia?

If you answer again with, I can believe your asking that, or you quote something from the Qur'an, Ill take that as a No Bro.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not quoting the Quran expecting you to believe in it. Far from it.
I am quoting it because 1424 years ago the Quran spoke about people like you. It is confirming the things you are saying as a dis-believer. Just like the Kafirs (the Jews at that time) rejected Jesus by asking for this proof and that proof , so did Quraish during Muhammad's time and so are you while all of the proof you want are right in front your eyes. Again, Deaf, dumb, and blind .....

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by mohabdul
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not quoting the Quran expecting you to believe in it. Far from it.
I am quoting it because 1424 years ago the Quran spoke about people like you. It is confirming the things you are saying as a dis-believer. Just like the Kafirs (the Jews at that time) rejected Jesus by asking for this proof and that proof , so did Quraish during Muhammad's time and so are you while all of the proof you want are right in front your eyes. Again, Deaf, dumb, and blind .....

Ok sorry misunderstood. How about this:

1971 Years Ago, 547 Years before Muhammed claimed to a Prophet:


Galatians 1:8-9

8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 7
9
As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

and so are you while all of the proof you want are right in front your eyes.

What Proof? That a Ex-Pagan worshipper, was supposedly called by God to "fix" up what went wrong? If this is so, why did Jesus say:

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek translation of rock is "Petros," and petra means "a small rock" in Greek, Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him, by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha, " not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter. Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Finally, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church.

Why didnt Jesus say:


And so I say to you [believers], I [under God's Will] will build His religion [Islam], 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. ??

Again, Deaf, dumb, and blind .....

Deaf? I can hear well, all i hear and see if contradictions Bro, I hear no proof, only nicely misleading verses of the bible, I see well, I see no proof, I see contradictions, I see double standards, I do not see the fulfillment of Christianity, why? because Christianity IS the fulfillment. Dumb? I am dumb because I refuse to submit to a arab prophet, that was neither Jew nor Christian, when throughout the history of Prophets in the Abrahamic religion they have all been jewish? I am blind, I see well, I see well enough to read the Qur'an 5 times, I see well enuf to see it contradicts the Bible, I see well enuf to read and gain knowledge and Christianity is the last revelations, I see well enuf to read and thru that KNOW Islam is not correct, but a heresy in which the Church has been fighting against for 1400 years, and will continue to fight against, until Christ comes on earth.

Brother. Unless you can show outside evidence of Islam, and Islamic topics, it just shows that Islam isnt what it says to be. I dont want to offend, but you have shown us no evidence of Islam before 613AD.

[Consider]

Originally posted by MorphRC
Bro a book that is to complete previous revelations, MUST NOT CONTRADICT everything. The Qur'an cannot be the last revelation.

For one.

No Priesthood.
No Passover.
No Confession.
No Viewable stimulation.
No Temple or Church.
No Authority on which everything is decided.
No Supreme Council [High Priests, Juda / Papacy, RC ]
No Eucharist
No Confirmation

Some of these things I have no knowledge about, but morph, let me ask:

With respect to confession : to us this seems to go against the direct relationship with God. Why do you need to confess to a priest, when God can hear you? What is the relavance of putting up an intermediary between yourself and God?

With respect to there being no temple or church in Islaam: there is no need to really see this as a contradiction. After all, all are places of worship.

Some companions of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi was sallam even prayed in a church when the time for prayer was due (when they were away from their original homelands I believe, and in a church which did not contain statues)

And Muslims are commanded to wage jihad; and one of the reasons is so that we can protect places of worship; even churches and synagogues [Quran 10:22]

The only authority we have is an imaam; but he is not like the priest in that he hears confessions etc. but he is the one who is knowledgeable, and that others can look to for advice etc.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by Consider
Some of these things I have no knowledge about, but morph, let me ask:

With respect to confession : to us this seems to go against the direct relationship with God. Why do you need to confess to a priest, when God can hear you? What is the relavance of putting up an intermediary between yourself and God?

With respect to there being no temple or church in Islaam: there is no need to really see this as a contradiction. After all, all are places of worship.

Some companions of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi was sallam even prayed in a church when the time for prayer was due (when they were away from their original homelands I believe, and in a church which did not contain statues)

And Muslims are commanded to wage jihad; and one of the reasons is so that we can protect places of worship; even churches and synagogues [Quran 10:22]

The only authority we have is an imaam; but he is not like the priest in that he hears confessions etc. but he is the one who is knowledgeable, and that others can look to for advice etc.

With respect to confession : to us this seems to go against the direct relationship with God. Why do you need to confess to a priest, when God can hear you? What is the relavance of putting up an intermediary between yourself and God?

The Priest is not a mediator, he is a tool of God for which you show your true sorrow for sin, in action. It is easy to kneel next to your bed, say God forgive me for I have sinned, its another thing to confess it to a man of God, of apostolic tradition.

Here are a few verses:

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.
John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins.
John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.
Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?
Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

II. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must confess our sins to one another (to our confessors), not just privately to God.
Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.
Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).
1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.
1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.


Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

FACT: In the first centuries of Christianity, people actually confessed their sin in Church infront of the people and the Priest/s.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Why do you need to confess to a priest, when God can hear you?

You are in a sense confessing them to the Priest, but your also confessing to God. Thats why at the start when a Catholic goes into confession he or she says:

Forgive me Father [God & Priest] for I have sinned
At this you are recognizing to God you have sinned, you are also recognizing to God that you belief in confession as from Jesus thru to the apostolic tradition.

What is the relavance of putting up an intermediary between yourself and God?

He aint a intermediary, the Priest again I saw is a tool of God, used by God on earth.

Some companions of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi was sallam even prayed in a church when the time for prayer was due (when they were away from their original homelands I believe, and in a church which did not contain statues)

Never heard it, but i seriously doubt it thou.

And Muslims are commanded to wage jihad; and one of the reasons is so that we can protect places of worship; even churches and synagogues

Jihad isnt about war with people. It is a personal struggle against sin and satan. The second but lower rated meaning is a holy war, AGAINST Agressors.

You really think Muslims would protect Synods and Churches? Come on Bro.

The only authority we have is an imaam; but he is not like the priest in that he hears confessions etc. but he is the one who is knowledgeable, and that others can look to for advice etc.

Ok. But there is their ONE SOLE Authority like the Papacy in Islam that defines everything for the followers?

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Believer
Mostly with African-Americans for some reason.
90% of the converts to Islam are blacks. öAllah has always opened the hearts of the oppressed to His message

and usually the priviledged within a society are the last to accept, if at all, and usually the staunchest opponents of truth

the examples are endless

[MorphRC]

I read from a article in the Age [Sydney Newspaper] about Islamic stats.

Arab Muslims - 16.4% [Dropped from 21.7%]
White Muslims - 56-67% [Increased 18.5-23%]
Black Muslims - 32-35%
Indonesian - 10-12%
Others - 10-24.7%

this are ruff statistics for each region, so they dont add up to 100% obviously.

[Consider]

Morph,

- In islaam, the relationship with God is very direct. One-to-one so to speak. It is he alone who forgives, and thus no man need hear our sins.

In fact, we are told to cover our faults, and not to uncover the faults of others.

- With respect to praying in a church; I cant find a reference for it at the moment, but here is something I found:

Ruling on renting churches for salaat (http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1833&dgn=4)

The Muslims should strive as much as they can to build their own places of worship, which should be built according to Islamic sharee’ah, structurally sound, without extravagance or decoration. If the Muslims cannot build their own mosques and they need a place to pray, and they cannot find anywhere other than a church, then “hiring churches to pray in them is not forbidden in sharee’ah if it is necessary, but praying towards statues and pictures should be avoided, and they should be covered or concealed if they are in the direction of the qiblah.”

- With respect to Jihad, everyone struggles with his self to perfect himself on a daily basis. Yet the jihaad, as understood by the jurists in Islaam refers to physical fighting. Its not the lower meaning, its the meaning. And yes, against agressors.

Agressors who threaten life and religion. Let me quote the ayah I referred to [22:40] (sorry, I quoted the wrong ayah initailly):

"Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." - For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty."

[MorphRC]

Ok.

So if a Church in Iraq is being attacked by Extremist Muslims, other muslims are called upon by the Qur'an to stop it?

[reachin'out]

Yes. Not willy nilly. Under the authority of the Muslim ruler. And Muslims do defend them against extremist khwaraji Muslims. What religion do you suppose the police and soldiers of a Muslim country belong to?

[Believer]

Peace mohabdul,

You are right the Quran does not conifrm your corrupted form of the Torah and Injil, but it confirms the orginal ones that were sent to Moses and Jesus respectively.


That is just what the Quran is designed to convince you.
I see no reason to this date that says my religion is wrong.
The Gospel's account of Jesus Christ is backed up in ancient prophecies. This is all I need to verify the truth of my religion.
The Word of God proves and verifies the Word of God, and does not contradict. The Quran contradicts the true Word of God.

There is no "original" Torah or Injil.
That is pure speculation based solely on the Quran.
We have the originals today, you just don't want to believe them.


Plus, you said that Jesus is the Seal of the Prophets, where does it say in your Bible(s)??? Or are just trying to copy what the Quran say?? That is so childish!!!


That's your terminology for the final prophet I assume.
Jesus is the promised one, the Messiah.
The promised Messiah is higher than a prophet, and He himself is the greatest of the prophets.
In what backwards religion does a prophet supercede the Messiah? In what kingdom does a servant have authority over his master?

As far as not submitting, it is upto you. Just remember this Ayah, it tells you what you will be saying when you are ready to be thrown in the fire:


Verily, We have warned you of a Penalty near, the Day when man will see (the deeds) which his hands have sent forth, and the Unbeliever (Kafir) will say, "Woe unto me! Would that I were dust!"
(Surah an-Naba)


Since I see absolutely no validity in your religion, this ayah isn't going to keep me up at night. :p
You sir are the Unbeliever.


You are right about most being Black-Americans. I sense that you are insinuating that it cannot be the truth since most who are converting are Blacks???


No, it just seems odd.
I always thought that some African-Americans believe Christianty is a white man's religion and they're just seeking a unique identity for themselves.
Most African-American converts are joining this Nation of Islam under Farrekan. Isn't this considered a cult of Islam?


Bythe way , Whites are catching too. Specially the white women are finding more liberation in Islam that ever before.


Yeah, I don't understand that.
Does Muhammed ever call a woman a "child of Abraham" like Jesus Christ?
Did Muhammed spare any adulteresses from stonings like Jesus Christ?
Maybe these ladies aren't familiar with the Gospels...particularly Luke.

Hey, in mosques do women have to sit in the back or can they mingle with men when praying?

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by reachin'out
Yes. Not willy nilly. Under the authority of the Muslim ruler. And Muslims do defend them against extremist khwaraji Muslims. What religion do you suppose the police and soldiers of a Muslim country belong to?

Interesting out of 123 books on Islam ive read [79% Islamic wrote] they've never given proof or examples of this, and even today I do not see it, does it happen at all Sis?

[reachin'out]

I live in a mainly non-muslim, western compound. We have Muslim military soldiers guarding our compound and Muslim police checkpoints on the approaches. Books? Read up about the rights of dhimmis. And listen to the khutbahs (lessons) of the Ulema on Fridays. I actually experience the real thing.

[MorphRC]

Originally posted by reachin'out
I live in a mainly non-muslim, western compound. We have Muslim military soldiers guarding our compound and Muslim police checkpoints on the approaches. Books? Read up about the rights of dhimmis. And listen to the khutbahs (lessons) of the Ulema on Fridays. I actually experience the real thing.

Ok. There is a difference between reading and listening about it to actually seeing it Sis.

[Believer]

Originally posted by reachin'out
I live in a mainly non-muslim, western compound. We have Muslim military soldiers guarding our compound and Muslim police checkpoints on the approaches. Books? Read up about the rights of dhimmis. And listen to the khutbahs (lessons) of the Ulema on Fridays. I actually experience the real thing.

Where exactly do you live reachin?
Can I guess? How about Africa?

[MorphRC]

Read up on the rights of dhimmis

I have. Over 35 articles, 3 books. They have as much rights as a animal being sent to the slaughter house Sis. Shariah law gives a whole new meaning to non-human rights.

[Consider]

Morph,

A person who believes is not equal to one who disbelieves in Islaam. One will gain Paradise, and one will gain the fire. How can they be the same?

In any case, "being a dhimmi" is still beneficial, which accounts for the fact that many people went and lived under the islaamic state when it existed - simply because it was safer and better!

The annual tax, jizya, that is paid, is practically the same (sometimes lower : I am not entirely sure on the details, maybe sis reachin' out will know more) than the annual Zakah paid by Muslims. Those who cannot afford it dont pay it.

For that teeny amount, you are under the protection of the state, and free to practice your own faith.

There is a difference, but in practicality, what does it amount to?

Then again, you have the choice not to live in such a place.

Originally posted by MorphRC
I have. Over 35 articles, 3 books. They have as much rights as a animal being sent to the slaughter house Sis. Shariah law gives a whole new meaning to non-human rights.

[reachin'out]

Originally posted by MorphRC
I have. Over 35 articles, 3 books. They have as much rights as a animal being sent to the slaughter house Sis. Shariah law gives a whole new meaning to non-human rights.

I don't know who wrote your 35 articles and 3 books. Orientalists, I suppose, or anti Islamic sites. Consider said I may know soething about the Jizya (http://jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/dhimmi-tax-fiftypercent.htm) - but I don't, really. Just that it served as protection money, was levied on those that could afford it and set at about 10% of one's capital on a yearly basis.

As for Dhimmitude, you might find quite a bit of information here (http://www.jamaat.org/islam/HumanRightsCitizens.html) not only about dhimmis, but also Muslims, converts and enemies of Islam and their rights.

[JiHaD_JoE]

Originally posted by Believer
Where exactly do you live reachin?
Can I guess? How about Africa?

i think Saudi Arabia