View Full Version : Christian Priests Converting To Islam
AbuMubarak
21-07-02, 01:26 PM
"Priests & Preachers Coming to Islam?"
True Life Story
How Yusuf Estes Came to Islam
Chaplain Yusuf Estes, former Christian, & Federal Prison Chaplain.
This is a very long file. You may print it out to read if you like.
Bismillah Rahman Raheem Al Hamdulilah Rabbil Alameen was Salat was Salam ala Rasoolulah
"Priests & Preachers Entering ISLAM?!"
To be
honest,
I was a
"dedicated
Christian"
and a
good 'ol boy
from
Texas.
We hated
anything
and
everything
about those
"Mozlems",
just like
you
are
supposed to,
here in the
West.
We had
been told:
"They
don't
believe in
God;
They
worship a
black box
in the
desert
and;
They kiss
the ground
5 times
a day."
Mozlems?
=
Terrorists!
Hijackers!
Kidnappers!
Pagans! -
I hated
them
- all of
them!
Many people ask me how a preacher or priest in Christianity can ever go to Islam, especially considering all the negative things that we hear about Islam and Muslims everyday. I would like to thank everyone for their interest and offer my humble story, God Willing.
Actually, a very nice Christian gentleman asked me through email why and how I left Christianity for Islam. So this is more or less a copy of the letter that I sent back to him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.todayislam.com/yusuf.htm
My name is Yusuf Estes and I am the National Muslim Chaplain for American Muslims, sponsored by a number of organizations here in Washington, DC. As such, I travel around the entire world lecturing and sharing the message of the Christ of the Quran in Islam. We hold dialogs and discussion groups with all faiths and enjoy the opportunity to work alongside of rabbis, ministers, preachers and priests everywhere. Most of our work is in the institutional area, military, universities and prisons. Primarily our goal is to educate and communicate the correct message of Islam and who the Muslims really are. Although Islam has grown now to tie Christianity as the largest of religions on earth, we see many of those who claim Islam as Muslims, that do not correctly understand nor properly represent the message of "Peace, Surrender and Obedience to God" (Arabic = 'Islam').
Dear me, I am afraid that I got a bit ahead of myself, I was trying to give a bit of background on my own personal experience to see if it would in anyway benefit you in your ministry. This may seem quite strange that I would offer to help you, while we perhaps share a few different perspectives and concepts of God, Jesus, prophethood, sin and salvation. But you see, at one time I was in the same boat as you. Really, I was. Let me explain.
I was born into a very strong Christian family in the Midwest. Our family and their ancestors not only built the churches and schools across this land, but actually were the same ones who came here in the first place. While I was still in elementary we relocated in Houston, Texas in 1949 (I'm old). We attended church regularly and I was baptized at the age of 12 in Pasadena, Texas. As a teenager, I wanted to visit other churches to learn more of their teachings and beliefs. The Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Charismatic movements, Nazarene, Church of Christ, Church of God, Church of God in Christ, Full Gospel, Agape, Catholic, Presbyterian and many more. I developed quite a thirst for the "Gospel" or as we say; "Good News." My research into religion did not stop with Christianity. Not at all. Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Metaphysics, native American beliefs were all a part of my studies. Just about the only one that I did not look into seriously was "Islam". Why? Good question.
Anyway, I became very interested in different types of music, especially Gospel and Classical. Because my whole family was religious and musical it followed that I too would begin my studies in both areas. All this set me for the logical position of Music Minister in many of the churches that I became affiliated with over the years. I started teaching keyboard instruments in 1960 and by 1963 owned my own studios in Laurel, Maryland, called "Estes Music Studios."
Over the next 30 years my father and I worked together in many business projects. We had entertainment programs, shows and attractions. We opened piano and organ stores all the way from Texas and Oklahoma to Florida. I made millions of dollars in those years, but could not find the peace of mind that can only come through knowing the truth and finding the real plan of salvation. I'm sure you have asked yourself the question; "Why did God create me?" or "What is it that God wants me to do?" or "Exactly who is God, anyway?" "Why do we believe in 'original sin?" and "Why would the sons of Adam be forced to accept his 'sins' and then as a result be punished forever. But if you asked anyone these questions, they would probably tell you that you have to believe without asking, or that it is a 'mystery' and you shouldn't ask.
And then there is the concept of the 'Trinity.' If I would ask preachers or ministers to give me some sort of an idea how 'one' could figure out to become 'three' or how God Himself, Who can do anything He Wills to do, cannot just forgive people's sins, but rather and had to become a man, come down on earth, be a human, and then take on the sins of all people. Keeping in mind that all along He is still God of the whole universe and does as He Wills to do, both in and outside of the universe as we know it.
Then one day in 1991, I came to know that the Muslims believed in the Bible. I was shocked. How could this be? But that's not all, they believe in Jesus as:
* a true messenger of God;
* prophet of God;
* miracle birth without human intervention;
* he was the 'Christ' or Messiah as predicted in the Bible;
* he is with God now and most important;
* He will be coming back in the Last Days to lead the believers against the 'Antichrist.'
This was too much for me. Especially since the evangelists that we used to travel around with all hated Muslims and Islam very much. They even said things that were not true to make people afraid of Islam. So, why would I want anything to do with these people?
My father was very active in supporting church work, especially church school programs. He became and ordained minister in the 1970s. He and his wife (my stepmother) knew many of the TV evangelists and preachers and even visited Oral Roberts and helped in the building of the "Prayer Tower" in Tulsa, OK. They also were strong supporters of Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Fae Bakker, Jerry Fallwell, John Haggi and the biggest enemy to Islam in America, Pat Robertson.
Dad and his wife worked together and were most active in recording "Praise" tapes and distributing them for free to people in retirement homes, hospitals and homes for the elderly. And then in 1991 he began doing business with a man from Egypt and told me that he wanted me to meet him. This idea appealed to me when I thought about the idea of having an international flavor. You know, the pyramids, sphinx, Nile River and all that. Then my father mentioned that this man was a 'Moslem.'
I couldn't believe my ears.
A 'Moslem?'
No way!
I reminded my dad of the various different things that we had heard about these people, how they are -
Terrorists; hijackers; kidnappers; bombers and who knows what else?
Not only that but:
They don't believe in God
They kiss the ground five times a day and
They worship a black box in the desert.
No!
I did not want to meet this 'Moslem' man. No way!
My father insisted that I meet him and reassured me that he was a very nice person. So, I gave in and agreed to the meeting.
But on my terms.
I agreed to meet him on a Sunday after church so we would be all prayed up and in good standing with the Lord. I would be carrying my Bible under my arm as usual. I would have my big shiny cross dangling and I would have on my cap which says: "Jesus is Lord" right across the front. My wife and two young daughters came along and we were ready for our first encounter with the 'Moslems.'
When I came into the shop and asked my father where the 'Moslem' was, he pointed and said: "He's right over there."
I was confused. That couldn't be the Moslem. No way.
I'm looking for a huge man with flowing robes and big turban on his head, a beard half way down his shirt and eyebrows that go all the way across his forehead.
This man had no beard. In fact, he didn't even have any hair on his head at all. He was very close to bald. And he was very pleasant with a warm welcome and handshake. This didn't make sense. I thought they are terrorists and bombers. What is this all about?
Never mind. I'll get right to work on this guy. He needs to be 'saved' and me and the Lord are going to do it.
So, after a quick introduction, I asked him:
"Do you believe in God?"
He said:
"Yes."
(Good!)
Then I said:
"Do you believe in Adam and Eve?"
He said:
"Yes."
I said: "What about Abraham? You believe in him and how he tried to sacrifice his son for God?"
He said:
"Yes."
Then I asked:
"What about Moses?"
"Ten Commandments?"
"Parting the Red Sea?"
Again he said:
"Yes."
Then:
"What about the other prophets, David, Solomon and John the Baptist?"
He said:
"Yes."
I asked:
"Do you believe in the Bible?"
Again, he said:
"Yes."
So, now it was time for the big question:
"Do you believe in Jesus? That he was the Messiah (Christ) of God?"
Again the said:
"Yes."
Well now:
"This was going to be easier than I had thought."
He was just about ready to be baptized only he didn't know it.
And I was just the one to do it, too.
I was winning souls to the Lord day after day and this would be a big achievement for me, to catch one of these 'Moslems' and 'convert' him to Christianity.
I asked him if he liked tea and he said he did. So off we went to a little shop in the mall to sit and talk about my favorite subject: Beliefs.
While we sat in that little coffee shop for hours talking (I did most of the talking) I came to know that he was very nice, quiet and even a bit shy. He listened attentively to every word that I had to say and did not interrupt even one time. I liked this man's way and thought that he had definite potential to become a good Christian.
Little did I know the course of events about to unravel in front of my eyes.
First of all, I agreed with my father that we should do business with this man and even encouraged the idea of him traveling along with me on my business trips across the northern part of Texas. Day after day we would ride together and discuss various issues pertaining to different beliefs that people have. And along the way, I could of course interject some of my favorite radio programs of worship and praise to help bring the message to this poor individual. We talked about the concept of God; the meaning of life; the purpose of creation; the prophets and their mission and how God reveals His Will to mankind. We also shared a lot of personal experiences and ideas as well.
One day I came to know that my friend Mohamed was going to move out of the home he have been sharing with a friend of his and was going to be living in the mosque for a time. I went to my dad and asked him if we could invite Mohamed to come out to our big home in the country and stay there with us. After all, he could share some of the work and some expenses and he would be right there when we were ready to go to out traveling around. My father agreed and Mohamed moved in.
Of course I still would find time to visit my fellow preachers and evangelists around the state of Texas. One of them lived on the Texas -- Mexico border and another lived near lived Oklahoma border. One preacher liked to a huge wooden cross that was bigger than a car. He would carry it over his shoulder and drag the bottom on the ground and go down the road or freeway hauling these two beams formed in the shape of a cross. People would stop their cars and come over to him and ask him what was going on and he would give them pamphlets and booklets on Christianity.
One day my friend with the cross had a heart attack and had to go to the Veterans Hospital where he stayed for quite a long while. I used to visit him in the hospital several times a week and I would take Mohamed with me with the hopes that we could all share together in the subject of beliefs and religions. My friend was not very impressed and it was obvious that he did not want to know anything about Islam. Then one day a man who was sharing the room with my friend came rolling into the room in his wheelchair. I went to him and asked him his name and he said that it didn't matter and when I asked him where he was from he said he was from the planet Jupiter. I thought about what he said and then began to wonder if I was in the cardiac ward or the mental ward.
I knew the man was lonely and depressed and needed someone in his life. So, I began to 'witness' to him about the Lord. I read to him out of the book of Jonah in the Old Testament. I shared the story of the prophet Jonah who had been sent by the Lord to call his people to the correct way. Jonah had left his people and escaped by boat to leave his city and head out to sea. A storm came up and the ship almost capsized and the people on board threw Jonah over the side of the ship. A whale came up to the surface and grabbed Jonah, swallowed him and then went down to the bottom of the sea, where he stayed for 3 days and 3 nights. Yet because of God's Mercy, He caused the whale to rise to the surface and then spit Jonah out to return back home safely to his city of Nineveh. And the idea was that we can't really run away from our problems because we always know what we have done. And what is more, God also always knows what we have done.
After sharing this story with the man in the wheel chair, he looked up and me and apologized. He told me he was sorry for his rude behavior and that he had experienced some real serious problems recently. Then he said that he wanted to confess something to me. And I said that I was not a Catholic priest and I don't handle confessions. He replied back to me that he knew that. In fact, he said: "I am a Catholic priest."
I was shocked. Here I had been trying to preach Christianity to a priest. What in the world was happening here?
The priest began to share his story of being a missionary for the church for over 12 years to south and Central America and Mexico and even in New York's 'Hell's Kitchen.' When he was released from the hospital he needed a place to go to recover and rather than let him go to stay with a Catholic family, I told my dad that we should invite him to come out and live with us in the country along with our families and Mohamed. It was agreed by all that he would so, he moved out right away.
During the trip out to our home, I talked with the priest about some of the concepts of beliefs in Islam and to my surprise he agreed and then shared even more about this with me. I was shocked when he told me that Catholic priests actually study Islam and some even carry doctors degrees in this subject. This was all very enlightening to me. But there was still a lot more to come.
After settling in, we all began to gather around the kitchen table after dinner every night to discuss religion. My father would bring his King James Version of the Bible, I would bring out my Revised Standard Version of the Bible, my wife had another version of the Bible (maybe something like Jimmy Swaggart's 'Good News For Modern Man." The priest of course, had the Catholic Bible which has 7 more books in it that the Protestant Bible. So we spent more time talking about which Bible was the right one or the most correct one, than we did trying to convince Mohamed about becoming a Christian.
At one point I recall asking him about the Quran and how many versions of it there were in the last 1,400 years. He told me that there was only ONE QURAN. And that it had never been changed. Yet he let me know that the Quran had been memorized by hundreds of thousands of people, in it's entirety and were scattered about the earth in many different countries. Over the centuries since the Quran was revealed millions have memorized it completely and have taught it to others who have memorized it completely, from cover to cover, letter perfect without mistakes.
This did not seem possible to me. After all, the original languages of the Bible have all been dead languages for centuries and the documents themselves have been lost in their originals for hundreds and thousands of years. So, how could it be that something like this could be so easy to preserve and to recite from cover to cover.
Anyway, one day the priest asked the Mohamed if he might accompany him to the mosque to see what it was like there. They came back talking about their experience there and we could not wait to ask the priest what it was like and what all types of ceremonies they performed. He said they didn't really 'do' anything. They just came and prayed and left. I said: "They left? Without any speeches or singing?" He said that was right.
A few more days went by and the Catholic priest asked Mohamed if he might join him again for a trip to the mosque which they did. But this time it was different. They did not come back for a very long time. It became dark and we worried that something might have happened to them. Finally they arrived and when they came in the door I immediately recognized Mohamed, but who was this alongside of him? Someone wearing a white robe and a white cap. Hold on a minute! It was the priest. I said to him: "Pete? -- Did you become a 'Moslem?'
He said that he had entered into Islam that very day. THE PRIEST BECAME A MUSLIM!! What next? (You'll see).
So, I went upstairs to think things over a bit and began to talk to my wife about the whole subject. She then told me that she too was going to enter into Islam, because she knew it was the truth. I was really shocked now. I went downstairs and woke up Mohamed and asked him to come outside with me for a discussion. We walked and talked that whole night through. By the time he was ready to pray Fajr (the morning prayer of the Muslims) I knew that the truth had come at last and now it was up to me to do my part. I went out back behind my father's house and found an old piece of plywood lying under an overhang and right there I put my head down on the ground facing the direction that the Muslims pray five times a day.
Now then in that position, with my body stretched out on the plywood and my head on the ground, I asked: "O God. If you are there, guide me, guide me." And then after a while I raised up my head and I noticed something. No, I didn't see birds or angels coming out of the sky nor did I hear voices or music, nor did I see bright lights and flashes. What I did notice was a change inside of me. I was aware now more than ever before that it was time for me to stop lying and cheating and doing sneaky business deals. It was time that I really work at being an honest and upright man. I knew now what I had to do. So I went upstairs and took a shower with the distinct idea that I was 'washing' away the sinful old person that I had become over the years. And I was now coming into a new, fresh life. A life based on truth and proof.
Around 11:00 A.M. that morning, I stood before two witnesses, one the ex-priest, formerly known as Father Peter Jacob's, and the other Mohamed Abel Rehman and announced my 'shahadah' (open testimony to the Oneness of God and the prophethood of Muhammad, peace be upon him).
A few minutes later, my wife follow along and gave the same testimony. But hers was in front of 3 witnesses (me being the third).
My father was a bit more reserved on the subject and waited a few more months before he made his shahadah (public testimony). But he did finally commit to Islam and began offering prayers right along with me and the other Muslims in the local masjid (mosque).
The children were taken out of the Christian school and placed in Muslim schools. And now ten years later, they are memorizing much of the Quran and the teachings of Islam.
My father's wife was the last of all to acknowledge that Jesus could not be a son of God and that he must have been a mighty prophet of God, but not God.
Now stop and think. A whole entire household of people from varying backgrounds and ethnic groups coming together in truth to learn how to know and worship the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Think. A Catholic priest. A minister of music and preacher. An ordained minister and builder of Christian schools. And they all come into Islam! Only by His Mercy were we all guided to see the real truth of Islam without any blinders on their eyes any longer.
If I were to stop right here, I'm sure that you would have to admit that at least, this is an amazing story, right? After all, three religious leaders of three separate denominations all going into one very opposite belief at the same time and then soon after the rest of the household.
But that is not all. There is more! The same year, while I was in Grand Prairie, Texas (near Dallas) I met a Baptist seminary student from Tennessee named Joe, who also came to Islam after reading the Holy Quran while in BAPTIST SEMINARY COLLEGE!
There are others as well. I recall the case of the Catholic priest in a college town who talked about the good things in Islam so much that I was forced to ask him why he didn't enter Islam. He replied: "What? And loose my job?" - His name is Father John and there is still hope for him yet.
More? Yes. The very next year I met a former Catholic priest who had been a missionary for 8 years in Africa. He learned about Islam while he was there and entered into Islam. He then changed his name to Omar and moved to Dallas Texas.
Any more? Again, yes. Two years later, while in San Antonio, Texas I was introduced to a former Arch Bishop of the Orthodox Church of Russia who learned about Islam and gave up his position to enter Islam.
And since my own entrance into Islam and becoming a chaplain to the Muslims throughout the country and around the world, I have encountered many more individuals who were leaders, teachers and scholars in other religions who learned about Islam and entered into it. They came from Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, Greek and Russian Orthodox, Coptic Christians from Egypt, non-denominational churches and even scientists who had been atheists.
Why? Good question.
May I suggest to the seeker of truth do the following NINE STEPS to purification of the mind:
1.) Clean their mind, their heart and their soul real good.
2.) Clear away all the prejudices and biases
3.) Read a good translation of the meaning of the Holy Quran in a language that they can understand best.
4.) Take some time.
5.) Read and reflect.
6.) Think and pray.
7.) And keep on asking the One who created you in the first place, to guide you to the truth.
8.) Keep this up for a few months. And be regular in it.
9.) Above all, do not let others who are poisoned in their thinking influence you while your are in this state of "rebirth of the soul."
The rest is between you and the Almighty Lord of the Universe. If you truly love Him, then He already Knows it and He will deal with each of us according to our hearts.
So, now you have the introduction to the story of my coming into Islam and becoming Muslim. There is more on the Internet about this story and there are more pictures there as well. Please take the time to visit it and then please take the time to email me and let us come together to share in all truths based on proofs for understanding our origins and our purpose and goals in this life and the Next Life.
And once again I thank you for your email today. If you hadn't sent it, I probably would still not have completed this task of putting down the story once and for all of how "Priest and Preachers Are Coming to Islam."
May Allah guide you on your journey to all truth. Ameen. And May He open your heart and your mind to the reality of this world and the purpose of this life, ameen.
Peace to you and Guidance from Allah the One Almighty God, Creator and Sustainer of all that exists.
Your friend,
Yusuf Estes
Chaplain Yusuf Estes
Originally posted by AbuMubarak
POSTED ON ANOTHER POST.
Bismillah Ir-Rahman Ir-Rahim...
As-Salaam-o-Alaykum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu!!!
The Meaning of Islam
The Pilgrimmage (Hajj):
Peace is the dominant theme.
Peace with Allah, with one's soul,
(*with one another*),
(*with all living creatures*).
To disturb the peace of anyone
or any creature in any shape or form
(*is strictly prohibited.*)
8. International Life: Man has a common origin, human status and aim. Other people's interests and (*right to life*), honour and property are respected as long as the right of Muslim are in tact. Transgression is forbidden.
(*War is only justified*)
if the state security is endangered.
(*During war*)
, destruction of crops,
animals and
homes,
killing non-fighting women,
children and
aged people are forbidden.
There is going to be some pretty awesome video tape clips shown on CNN, starting today, Sunday and showing different ones through out this week, of how the Islamic religion REALLY teaches. A Must See; It is suppose to start at 10:00pm. EDT. It might be a shock to some viewers, so caution is advised. Get your blank tape ready in your VCR, cause you'll want to review it as it teaches all humans what Islam religion is all about.
God Bless the seed of Abraham.
*Angel*
Originally posted by AbuMubarak
[B]"Priests & Preachers Coming to Islam?"
True Life Story
How Yusuf Estes Came to Islam
Chaplain Yusuf Estes, former Christian, & Federal Prison Chaplain.
This is a very long file. You may print it out to read if you like.
Bismillah Rahman Raheem Al Hamdulilah Rabbil Alameen was Salat was Salam ala Rasoolulah
"Priests & Preachers Entering ISLAM?!"
To be
honest,
I was a
"dedicated
Christian"
and a
good 'ol boy
from
Texas.
We hated
anything
and
everything
about those
"Mozlems",
just like
you
are
supposed to,
here in the
West.
We had
been told:
"They
don't
believe in
God;
They
worship a
black box
in the
desert
and;
They kiss
the ground
5 times
a day."
Mozlems?
=
Terrorists!
Hijackers!
Kidnappers!
Pagans! -
I hated
them
- all of
them!
I wouldn't waste my paper making a print-out of this story; ITS nothing but a lie from someone who truly HATES Christians!
If the man was a True Christian; he never would have said all of the above.
True Christians model themselves after Jesus Christ; Who taught that a person was to Love God and To Love their Brothers and sisters as Jesus Loves us; and that is not what the man has said in this story right from the beginning, What a deceiving story just to convince the reader to change religions, I'd say the story was written by a Muslim; lying to the reader so as to make Christians look like the evil person here, where in fact the writer of the story is the evil one! Just for lying!!
EVE.......
Originally posted by eve
I wouldn't waste my paper making a print-out of this story; ITS nothing but a lie from someone who truly HATES Christians!
If the man was a True Christian; he never would have said all of the above.
True Christians model themselves after Jesus Christ; Who taught that a person was to Love God and To Love their Brothers and sisters as Jesus Loves us; and that is not what the man has said in this story right from the beginning, What a deceiving story just to convince the reader to change religions, I'd say the story was written by a Muslim; lying to the reader so as to make Christians look like the evil person here, where in fact the writer of the story is the evil one! Just for lying!!
EVE.......
Are you kidding me??!?!? I've heard many articles written by priests who attack Islam like that.
I've heard comments such as (in response to Spet. 11) by priests such as: "Blow up mecca [or the ka'aba - im not exactly sure]". That's one of the worst things i've ever heard.
Qurratulain
29-08-02, 04:39 PM
Assalamulaikom,
Yes HAfiz you are right about that. I even heard a priest on CNN do that stuff. There was in interview with a muslim imam and a christian priest I think. They were asking the imam the reason why so many people especially the one's in prisons are converting to islam Even after sep 11. The facts they gave on CNN were that out of every 6 prisoners one converts to islam. If u had watched the show u would have seen how the other priest was losing it and in the end they just turned off the voice while he the priest was still yelling......
Originally posted by Hafiz
Are you kidding me??!?!? I've heard many articles written by priests who attack Islam like that.
I've heard comments such as (in response to Spet. 11) by priests such as: "Blow up mecca [or the ka'aba - im not exactly sure]". That's one of the worst things i've ever heard.
I too have also heard Priests saying such things; but again I say to you a True Christian will NEVER say the things that was said in that story; So what I'm saying here is Not All Priests are True Christians as most priests don't really believe in the scriptures as the true word of God, they mostly think the Bible was written to try and convince the reader to live a good life and the Bible is just a book, like some good reading material; but not something to live by. I often wonder why they are even called a christian priest, when they should just be called something else; maybe the word muslim would fit them better as they believe that there was a man called Jesus; BUT they don't put their faith in him as the Son of God, which I do. and if they REALLY had put their trust in Jesus, they would have experienced the Holy Spirit, which there is no other thing in this world that could ever take the place of that comforting feeling one gets only through The Lord Jesus Christ= Holy Spirit.
EVE....
Consider
01-09-02, 05:30 PM
Eve,
The concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story.
Eve, do you believe in Adam? Noah? Moses? Abraham? Do you believe that they were all coming with the same religion? They were werent they.
There are three main religions today, christianity, islam and judaism. They have large followings. It must be for a particular reason. There has got to be something in it.
Yes, God sent messengers. He sent a messenger to every nation, so that they could be guided.
We respect jesus (as) in a different way. He was a messenger, just like the other prophets. Why should he be different??? then a couple of generations later, through the sons of ismail, son of ibrahim, came Muhammad (pbuh). Another messenger. Yet this time, a messenger said he was the last.
When you put your faith in something, you have to have understood why, where, when, are you blindly following something that your parents brought you up into? or have you quenched your thirst for the search for truth, and have made this decision after that.
Can I ask you, why is there a need for priests in christianity??? Do you go to confessions?
In islam, the relationship with Allah is direct. You dont go via anyone else. It is so simple. We dont need to confess to anyone except God. He is all-merciful, if you repent, he will forgive you.
There are so many similarities between islam and christianity, all pointing to the fact that it has to be the same message. But the texts are different, and the concept of god is different and other things. Once you realise that, it is up to you to see which is the authentic one.
Many priests have questioned their faith, many have found that there was no true understanding in their faith, in their concept of God, and have found the way.
Muslim19
01-09-02, 09:40 PM
Meaning: Praise is Only for Allah!
Jazak Allahu Khair AbuMubarak.
And may Allah(SWT) make all those who revert to Islam one way or the other a Truthful one and rewrded with Al Jannnah. Ameen!
May Allah(SWT) guide you to the Light of Islam, and us to apprciate and die at the state of Islam (Muslims). Amen!
Beautifully sum up by Brother Yusuf:
The rest is between you and the Almighty Lord of the Universe. If you truly love Him, then He already Knows it and He will deal with each of us according to our hearts.
Amen!!!
Deare Eve,
"ISLAM"
Root: salam
SALAM means achievement of Peace, often used as a greeting between people. Peace between people means security, and security is had under just authority and through just administration. If such justice is recognized, the community experiences the peace achieve by submission to that authority.
Islam refers to that submission. The submission of people to the Justice and Mercy of our Creator and Lord, Allah subhanna wa ta'alaa.
ISLAM is our way of life, our deen: Submission to Allah.
The word Muslim is derived from the above, meaning one who partakes of the community in Islam. The person who submits and spreads peace among the community of souls by enjoining the good and forbidding the evil and conscienciously observing the worship (ibada) of our Lord in its many forms, but particularly the five daily salat.
A Muslim is not one who disbelieves the scriptures. It is one who lives by what the scriptures ordain because they deliver their souls to what it teaches. Thus MUSLIM means one who submits to Allah.
We listen. We submit.
We don't try and twist the true words of God to generate what we want them to say.
That is for you.
And may Allah give you the just reward for it.
Jamila
balqees
02-09-02, 02:40 PM
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Hi, Eve.
You are being defensive of Christianity and Christians by this way of thought...by saying that if that man said this...then he was not a 'true christian'. And that is normal. However, you have also attacked Islam and muslims..by your claim that it was a muslim who wrote that story. And as well as accusing the writer (who you have perhaps even falsely claimed...at least ignorantly claimed...as being a muslim) of being the 'evil one'.
Let me enlighten you that many many christians have turned over to Islam. And these are people who were 'true christians' in every sense of the word during their time as Christians. I myself one of them (who was previously a Christian but I am now a Muslim, alhamdulillah).
Just because a person has turned to being a Muslim does not mean that they were not 100% christian or true christian during their times as a christian.
Everyone sins...and makes mistakes...and when christians sin or make mistakes...does that make them any less christian??? Same thing can be asked of the muslims or the jews or whatever religious ahderance. Just because one makes a sin or a mistake along the way...does not make them any less of the Muslim or Christian or Jew that they are. It merely means that they have sinned. But does not make them less of a Muslim or a Christian.
And so...this Christian priest or minister who had turned eventually to Islam...who originally was frightened from Islam to the extent of hating Islam and Muslims (without even KNOWING what or who they were)...was no less of a Christian at that time when he expressed such thoughts against Muslims and Islam. It was merely evidence of the bigotry of his surroundings influencing him towards such an impression.
I myself went through a similar stage. Although for different reasons. My first encounter with Muslims was that I saw them doing things not in agreement with the teachings of Islam. And so I took on a bad impression of Muslims in general. As well as the impression enforced upon the public through the American media...that Islam meant 'extremism' and 'oppression' and 'backwardness'. I mean...it was even impressed upon us that because Islam was the religion of the language of Arabic... or rather that Arabic is the language of the revelation of Islam...and that Arabic is written and read from right to left, rather than left to right as English...that in itself was a great sign of their total 'backwardness' of the Muslims...because they wrote and read backwards in comparison to the 'more advanced' Americans.
I mean...such bigoted thought. Cannot get much more bigoted than that.
Anyways...when I finally did come in contact with some true muslims...muslims who were living their lives as muslims...I had already formed in my mind such an impression of muslims ... that i automatically hated these people...without first meeting them, getting to know them, and getting to know and understand their religion. But as time went on...and my experiences with those muslims showed me otherwise...I began to understand...not only Islam itself and muslims...but as well my own pre-conceived misconceptions on Islam. Those misconceptions were formed both by a previous encounter with muslims who were not exemplifying Islam in their lives, as well as influence from the Americans around me who were bigoted in their thinkings towards muslims...and therefore influenced me to become like them.
As for this priest...in his original misconception of Islam and muslims...I am quite familiar with that frame of mind...from the south and Texas...I have encountered that first hand myself...before my days of Islam, as well as after becoming a muslim. I was once chased from one end of a major modern mall to the other...and even outside towards my car...by a man...I was afraid he was desiring something which I had no desire to comfort him with...and only to find out...by the time that my heart was about to jump out of my chest (I had my two young children...both under 2 years old...with me at the time as well)...only to be asked by him the rediculous question: 'are you the last of the mohiquans??'
I mean...really, people...and these Americans are supposed to be so 'educated' and 'enlightened'. Since becoming a Muslim...and my encounters with Americans since that time...I have found basically the Americans to be the most uneducated in matters of the world...and in matters of manners and interaction with other peoples of other beliefs. I have found them to be the most bigoted and intolerant people, really.
And so the thoughts of this priest are not surprising at all...coming out of Texas...the 'bible belt'...you cannot get a much more bigoted area in America.
I do not question this conversion story one bit...because I myself have had similar experiences...and I have encountered many such others of such similar experiences and changeover into Islam.
balqees.
3aber sabeel
02-09-02, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by eve
BUT they don't put their faith in him as the Son of God, which I do. and if they REALLY had put their trust in Jesus, they would have experienced the Holy Spirit, which there is no other thing in this world that could ever take the place of that comforting feeling one gets only through The Lord Jesus Christ= Holy Spirit.
EVE....
In Matthew 1:18.
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."
Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.
"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."
In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. Then the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.
Unless, your Bible has contradictions.
Originally posted by 3aber sabeel
In Matthew 1:18.
"Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."
Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.
"And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."
In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. Then the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel.
Unless, your Bible has contradictions.
Angel Gabriel was only the messenger of what was about to happen to Mary, as he was also the Angel sent to Zacharias to tell him about his son that was going to be born. Angel Gabriel is also refered to as the "angel of the Lord"; which also came to the
shepherds with the Good News of Jesus' Birth. The angel of the Lord is NOT the Holy Ghost, as the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of GOD.
Matthew 1:
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, (* the angel of the LORD*) appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is (*of the Holy Ghost.*)
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Take notice that the angel of the Lord (* Who is Angel Gabriel *)
told Joseph that Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost; If Mary had conceived by Angel Gabriel, Don't you think the angel would have said that Mary conceived by me, Angel Gabriel.??????
LUKE 1:
11 And there appeared unto him (*an angel of the Lord*) standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; (*and am sent "to speak" unto thee,*) and to "shew thee" these glad tidings.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, (*The Holy Ghost "shall come" upon thee,*) and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called (*the Son of God.*)
------------------
Notice that in verse 35 it says The Holy Ghost SHALL COME; MEANING; HE WASN'T THERE YET !!
Angel Gabriel is not God, he is only an angel, Jesus is to be called the Son of GOD not son of Gabriel!!
-----------------
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 (* "For with "God" nothing shall be impossible." *)
38 And Mary said, Behold (*the handmaid of the Lord;*) be it unto me according to thy word.(* And the "angel" departed from her.*)
Notice that Mary calls herself the "handmaid" of the LORD; NOT Angel Gabriel !!
LUKE 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, (*I bring you good tidings of great joy,*) which shall be to all people.
These are the words of God; NOT mine, so you can't accuse me of twisting the scriptures.
EVE.......
3aber sabeel
03-09-02, 01:05 AM
Thank you for your reply eve.
What I have understood from your post is that, Jesus is God because he is filled with the Holy Spirit, and/or Jesus is the Holy Spiriy, is that Right?
But there are other people who have been filled with the Holy Ghost? Are they also divine?
Look at Acts 11:24: "For he [Barnabas] was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith; and many people were added unto the Lord" and Acts 5:32: "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
You should also read Acts 6:5; II Peter 1:21; II Timothy 1:14; I Corinthians 2:16; Luke 1:41.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bintmasood
[B]Eve,
The concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story.
Eve replies;
I have to smile when I read things like you wrote; WHY? Because we are only Human, and here there is a God that has created all things; Things we haven't even come close to even thinking of asking about; and even if we think of it, it take years before we even come close to the right answer, so it doesn't surprise me at all that there are a lot of people that cannot understand the concept of the trinity. But just because one doesn't understand it; doesn't mean that its not the way it is. There IS ONLY ONE GOD, and he is NOT the God of confusion, One must study the scriptures to even come close to understanding the trinity.
______________________________
Eve, do you believe in Adam? Noah? Moses? Abraham? Do you believe that they were all coming with the same religion? They were werent they.
EVE replies;
YES I believe that Adam was the First MAN, created in GOD' Image.
YES I believe Noah found grace in the eyes of God.
YES I believe Moses was called according to the will of God.
YES I believe Abraham was Chosen by God to be the Father of all nations.
________________________________
There are three main religions today, christianity, islam and judaism. They have large followings. It must be for a particular reason. There has got to be something in it.
Yes, God sent messengers. He sent a messenger to every nation, so that they could be guided.
We respect jesus (as) in a different way. He was a messenger, just like the other prophets. Why should he be different???
Eve replies;
Jesus IS the Son of GOD that's why! The Old Testament prophets, prophesied of his coming, hundreds of years before it happened. Even if the muslims try to say the prophecy was about Muhammad, it just is not true; as, to many scriptures point to Jesus.
___________________________________
then a couple of generations later, through the sons of ismail, son of ibrahim, came Muhammad (pbuh). Another messenger. Yet this time, a messenger said he was the last.
Eve replies;
I know for a fact that Muhammad was *NOT* the last prophet; as there are still some today; in fact one of them prophesied that Bush was going to be the next President of the USA, (*two years before he even thought about running for it.*) He has already prophesied that the Next one will be a Black man; so you can keep an eye open for the next election to see if it comes to pass.
and when it does; maybe then you'll think different about your *LAST* Prophet Muhammad.
____________________________________
When you put your faith in something, you have to have understood why, where, when, are you blindly following something that your parents brought you up into? or have you quenched your thirst for the search for truth, and have made this decision after that.
Eve replies;
Why am I a Christian? One night the Holy Spirit came to me in a dream and told me to get ready because there wasn't much time left before his return; then he put the desire in me to learn his words, SOoooo.....,
I study scriptures, I pray, and The Holy Spirit reveals to me things that has not been revealed, except to God's chosen few, so what I say, I know is the truth as I lean not to my own understanding.
I'm sure you don't believe me because without believing Jesus is the Son of God; The Holy Spirit will not visit you, because your religion rejects the truth, That Jesus IS the SON of GOD.
___________________________________
Can I ask you, why is there a need for priests in christianity??? Do you go to confessions?
Eve replies;
There are Priests in the Catholic religion, Which I'm not any part of, I myself, go to God in prayer, as he is the only one I need.
___________________________________
There are so many similarities between islam and christianity, all pointing to the fact that it has to be the same message. But the texts are different, and the concept of god is different and other things. Once you realise that, it is up to you to see which is the authentic one.
Eve replies;
As the Holy scriptures were good enough for Jesus to learn, quote and to live by; and because all through scriptures the prophets prophesied of things to be, bad and Good, and they have all come to pass or at least in the process of coming to pass as we speak, but one thing that was never prophesied about is the coming of the *LAST* PROPHET. In fact Jesus warned about the coming of the *FALSE PROPHET*. Which I know Muslims think it was Paul; But Not true, as Jesus had said before he was crucified how he would reveal himself to whom he wills, through the Holy Spirit, and Paul who didn't even know him before, was called by Jesus only after Jesus was risen from the dead; and instructed by the Holy Spirit ( Jesus ) where to go preach, and what to preach, and it was the same message that Jesus had taught the disciples; Plus even more into detail, as Jesus's time here on earth was not long enough for him to teach all things that needed to be taught, as we humans can only comprehend so much at a time.
___________________________________
Many priests have questioned their faith, many have found that there was no true understanding in their faith,
Eve replies;
Only the Holy Spirit can give True Understanding, and if a person denies Jesus as the Son of God, and rejects him as such; he is actually rejecting the Holy Spirit, thereby living Deaf, Dumb, and Blind, BY Their own CHOICE.
EVE........
[QUOTE]Originally posted by balqees
[B]Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Hi, Eve.
You are being defensive of Christianity and Christians by this way of thought...by saying that if that man said this...then he was not a 'true christian'. And that is normal. However, you have also attacked Islam and muslims..by your claim that it was a muslim who wrote that story. And as well as accusing the writer (who you have perhaps even falsely claimed...at least ignorantly claimed...as being a muslim) of being the 'evil one'.
Eve replies;
Being deceitful is Evil,
John 3:
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
These verses *All True Christians* believe, and once they believe; Why would they convert? Unless of course they didn’t really believe, which would make them, a non-believer from the beginning; or NOT A TRUE Christian from the start.
To be a Christian is to be Christ-Like; To turn my back on Jesus Christ would put such a fear of God in me because of his wrath, that I would be just plain stupid to do it. But the reason I don’t is because I Love THE LORD JESUS CHRIST and I depend on him everyday of my life, and he has not failed me yet, nor will he; I have his promise.
_______________________________
As well as the impression enforced upon the public through the American media...that Islam meant 'extremism' and 'oppression' and 'backwardness'.
I mean...it was even impressed upon us that because Islam was the religion of the language of Arabic... or rather that Arabic is the language of the revelation of Islam...
and that Arabic is written and read from right to left, rather than left to right as English...
that in itself was a great sign of their total 'backwardness' of the Muslims...
because they wrote and read backwards in comparison to the 'more advanced' Americans.
Eve replies;
What a Stupid statement…
How does one read Hebrew? * Smile * I myself read ONLY English, and I wish sometimes I could read Hebrew, but I can’t; I have never heard of anyone calling someone backward because they read different, to me that is another sarcastic statement along with your statement of the American media; In fact this is what the American media really is saying; Islam is a faith; Muslims are who follow the faith, and like all religions they have their * Not so good followers * who have fallen back on the religion to make excuses as to why they are murderers, and terrorists the extremists.
I say these kind of people go way back to Abraham, to when Isaac was born; Ishmael was already old enough to understand that God had given Abraham, Isaac as the covenant seed and the Blessings that God had promised to Abraham and Sarah were to be Isaac’ and his seed after him and Ishmael was already Jealous of Isaac, and that jealousy has been kept alive ever since, right up to today, to the point that no Muslim wants a Jew alive, let alone have them live in Israel, such a tiny nation; Only God himself has protected it from the nations that try to take it, or to destroy it. If one really studies the Bible; One would know from prophecy what is about to happen next, God Bless Jerusalem.
________________________________________________
I mean...really, people...and these Americans are supposed to be so 'educated' and 'enlightened'. Since becoming a Muslim...and my encounters with Americans since that time...I have found basically the Americans to be the most uneducated in matters of the world...and in matters of manners and interaction with other peoples of other beliefs. I have found them to be the most bigoted and intolerant people, really.
Eve replies;
Watch what you say about the educated American; as of 1993 there were more then 300,000 Muslims in the USA. So what you are saying is; that since Muslims settled there the country has gotten stupid? I would say that number has at least doubled since then.
I have a question for you Muslims that live in the USA; If all you do is cut it down, and you really don’t like the money you are able to make there, and the freedoms it has; Why don’t you just get out, and go to the land of beautiful sand, and hot air? Could it be that you are planning on over running the government? And taking another nation that never was yours? Just a question…
* smile *
Eve…….
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 3aber sabeel
[B]Thank you for your reply eve.
What I have understood from your post is that, Jesus is God because he is filled with the Holy Spirit, and/or Jesus is the Holy Spiriy, is that Right?
Eve replies;
You have misunderstood; Jesus is not filled with the Holy Ghost; He Is the Holy Ghost, He is the Word, He is the Son in the flesh; Jesus Is GOD.
__________________________
But there are other people who have been filled with the Holy Ghost? Are they also divine?
Eve replies;
God has visited many people and filled them with his Spirit, but until Jesus Died for mankind, that is all that it was "only a visit".
But Jesus promised that after he died that he would come to those who believed in him and be with us always, to teach us the things he taught and even more, and to comfort us in times of need. So the rest of the scriptures you gave, just proves what I have just told you.
_______________________
Look at Acts 11:24: "For he [Barnabas] was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith; and many people were added unto the Lord" and Acts 5:32: "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."
You should also read Acts 6:5; II Peter 1:21; II Timothy 1:14; I Corinthians 2:16; Luke 1:41.
Eve replies;
Maybe you should read and study the Old Testament, then you might be able to understand the New.
Eve......
eve said
But Jesus promised that after he died that he would come to those who believed in him and be with us always, to teach us the things he taught and even more, and to comfort us in times of need. So the rest of the scriptures you gave, just proves what I have just told you.
John 14:16
and I will ask the Father, and another Comforter He will give to you, that he may remain with you -- to the age;
John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it doth not behold him, nor know him, and ye know him, because he doth remain with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:26
'And when the Comforter may come, whom I will send to you from the Father -- the Spirit of truth, who from the Father doth come forth, he will testify of me;
John 16:13
and when He may come -- the Spirit of truth -- He will guide you to all the truth, for He (*will not speak from Himself*), but (*as many things as He will hear He will speak*), and the coming things He will tell you;
IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE JESUS IS SPEAKING ABOUT HIMSELF!!! :rolleyes:
Nor is this about his second coming because that is supposed to be the END (just before ressurrection) and he (the spirit of truth) *will tell you the 'coming things'*. ;)
It makes me *smile* when I read your posts.
BTW, can you tell me why 'the comforter - the spirit of truth' is referred to as 'he' or 'him' in John 14:16-17 and 15:26, but as 'He' or 'Himself' in John 16:13? :confused:
Jamila :)
Muslim19
03-09-02, 11:07 AM
Masha Allahu! Jamila.
Oh Humanity there is more to what we read, see, and hear. The Lord of the Prophets and Creations deserves more....
How can we compensate our creation?
Petermasih
03-09-02, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by jamila
BTW, can you tell me why 'the comforter - the spirit of truth' is referred to as 'he' or 'him' in John 14:16-17 and 15:26, but as 'He' or 'Himself' in John 16:13? :confused:
Jamila :)
In old English, when writing about the Lord (Allah), Jesus ('Isa) or the Holy Spirit/Ghost (ar-Ruh-ul-quddus), the words "He", "Him", "Himself" were often written with a capital letter, as a sign of respect. You will see this often in the old "King James" translation.
In modern English, the use of a capital letter in this way is not regarded as so important, so you will normally find these words written with small letters in more recent translations.
This also corresponds with the original Greek of the Injil sharif. The earliest manuscripts were written in CAPITALS (technically called UNCIALS) throughout. So there was no way of distinguishing between "He" and "he". Check out a page of one of the oldest manuscripts of John's gospel here (http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/texte/P66-2.jpg)
Having said that, I have checked out the King James translation at these points, and ALL the verses (including John 16:13) use small letters. Maybe you are using 2 different translations.
Petermasih
03-09-02, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by jamila
IT SURE SOUNDS LIKE JESUS IS SPEAKING ABOUT HIMSELF!!! :rolleyes:
Yes, sister Jamila, you're right. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is NOT the same as Jesus, even though there's a close link. That is why, as you point out, he is called "ANOTHER Comforter" (allon parakleton), and referred to as "he".
However, Eve also has a point, because Jesus also said, before he was taken up to heaven, "I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:20). So there is a very real sense in which Hazrat 'Isa is with those who believe in him here on earth, while at the same time as being in Paradise.
Isn't it wonderful God's prophet, 'Isa (as) is still alive and here with us? Doesn't this encourage us to expect him to be able to do similar miracles now to those mentioned in the Injil and Qur'an, when we ask for his help?
Muslim19
03-09-02, 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by Petermasih
Yes, sister Jamila, you're right. The Holy Ghost/Spirit is NOT the same as Jesus, even though there's a close link. That is why, as you point out, he is called "ANOTHER Comforter" (allon parakleton), and referred to as "he".
Yes, I DO know, but eve doesn't. She's a bit dense.
However, Eve also has a point, because Jesus also said, before he was taken up to heaven, "I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:20). So there is a very real sense in which Hazrat 'Isa is with those who believe in him here on earth, while at the same time as being in Paradise.
Of course there is. After all, he was taken up to heaven ALIVE, and will return to rule the last days before the final end in the same state as when he left us.
Isn't it wonderful God's prophet, 'Isa (as) is still alive and here with us? Doesn't this encourage us to expect him to be able to do similar miracles now to those mentioned in the Injil and Qur'an, when we ask for his help?
Well, he will be with us physically towards the end, and his teaching, as Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam renewed, explained, refined amd completed, is also with us. However, his spirit, as with all the spirits of the prophets, including the last, is with Allah. He can't do, and never could do, any miracles from himself. The miracles he performed, as the miracles of all the other prophets, are made by Allah and done with His will (and by His finger). Allah can do anything, with or without his prophets as a medium.
Then Martha said unto Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died. But I know that, even now, whatever you will ask of God, God will give it to you."
John 11, 21-22
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard me, and I knew that You hear me always: But, because of the people who stand by, I said it, that they may believe that You have went me." When he had spoken thus, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"
John, 11, 41-43
PS. I was using the BASIC ENGLISH VERSION, directly copied from the web from a concordance database in my previous post cocerning 'capitilization' of 'he' and 'himself'. The above is the KJV with inverted commas inserted and the old English words rendered in modern English spelling. I also capitalized the 'You', which renders 'thee' or 'thou' to emphasise Jesus is talking to Allah. Can you explain why the pronouns symbolizing 'the Father' are not capitalized in the KJV in these verses?
PPS. The 'allon' in 'allon parakletos' means another (thing/person) alike, rather than another different (ie: heteron). If Jesus is a parakletos, then the other will be of the same nature as Jesus, a man from God bearing his message. Who was that man?
Was it St. Paul, (Satan Saul)?
Was it Josephus?
Was it Mr. Smith?
Was it Billy Graham?
Or was it Muhammad, solah allahu alayhi wassalam?
And remember when Jesus, son of Mary, said, "O chlidren of Israel! I am a messenger of Allah unto you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name will be Ahmad." But when he came unto them with clear proofs, they said, "this is plain magic."
Surah Assaff [The Column] (61), v.6
Allah's messenger said,"I have 5 names.
I am Muhammad and Ahmad (one who praises Allah {more than others})
I am Al Mahi, through whom Allah will eliminate Al Kufr (disbelief)
I am Al Hashir, who will be the first to be resurrected, (the people being resurrected thereafter)
I am also Al Aqib (the seal) and there will be no prophet after me."
Sahih al Bukhari, vol. 4, Hadith no. 732
Jamila :)
3aber sabeel
07-09-02, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Petermasih
Isn't it wonderful God's prophet, 'Isa (as) is still alive and here with us? Doesn't this encourage us to expect him to be able to do similar miracles now to those mentioned in the Injil and Qur'an, when we ask for his help?
1) Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and would believe in doctrines made not by God but by man: Matthew 15:9: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
All doctrines of modern Christianity are made by men: the Trinity, the divine sonship of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus Christ, and the doctrines Original Sin and Atonement.
From Jesus' own sayings, recorded in the New Testament, it is clear that he never claimed divinity or identity with God: "I do nothing of myself" (John 8:28); "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28; "The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12: 29); "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34); and "Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit" (Luke 23:46); and "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father" (Mark 13:32).
Jesus also did the miracles with the grace of God, as he himself said: John 5:30: "I can of mine own self do nothing ..." and Luke 11:2): "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you."
All miracles performed by Jesus have been done by previous prophets, disciples, and even unbelievers.
On the other hand, Jesus could do no mighty work where there was unbelief: Mark 6:5-6: "And he could there do no mighty work save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. and he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went around about the villages, teaching."
2) From the Muslim's perspective:
Allah, the Exalted, says:
"And when My slaves ask you (O Muhammad (PBUH)) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed near (to them by My Knowledge). I respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor).'' (2:186)
"Is not He (better than your gods) Who responds to the distressed one, when he calls Him, and Who removes the evil, and makes you inheritors of the earth, generations after generations. Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Little is that you remember!" [27:62].
The Messenger of Allah said to Ibn Abbas:" Young man, I shall teach you some words of advice]: Be mindful of Allah and Allah will protect you. Be mindful of Allah, and you will find him in front of you. If you ask, ask of Allah; If you seek help, seek help of Allah. Know that if the Nation were to gather together to benefit you of anything, it would benefit you only with something that Allah had already prescribed for you, and if they gather together to harm you with anything, they would harm you only with something Allah had already prescribed for you. The pens have been lifted and the pages have dried." [Sahih al-Bukhari]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jamila
[B]
Yes, I DO know, but eve doesn't. She's a bit dense.
____________________________________
Eve replies;
REALLY Jamila, READ >
John 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him,(* I am the way, * the truth,* and the life:*) no man cometh unto the Father, (*but by me.*)
10 Believest thou not that (*I am in the Father,*) and (*the Father in me?*) the words that I speak unto you I speak not (*of myself:*) but the Father that (*dwelleth in me,*) he doeth the works.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that (*he may abide with you for ever;*)
17 Even the (*Spirit of truth;*) whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him;(* for he dwelleth with you,*) and (*shall be in you.*)
18 I will not leave you comfortless: (*I will come to you.*)
20 At that day ye shall know that (* I am in my Father,*) and (*ye in me,*) and (* I in you.*)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and (*will manifest myself to him.*)
_____________________________________________
John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, (*the Spirit of truth,*) is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak (*of himself;*) but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jamila;
John 14:6 Jesus said he is the TRUTH
Verse 16 Who is the Comforter? The Spirit of TRUTH.
Verse 17 Jesus tells them that it is he that dwelleth with them right then, and SHALL BE IN THEM.
Although later as he indicates with the words SHALL BE; meaning after he is resurrected from the dead.
Verse 18 Who said he wouldn’t leave us comfortless? Jesus did; as he said; (* I *) will come to you.
This is NOT about Jesus’ second coming, as he will be in the FLESH at that point in time; and the whole world will see him, But Now he is here in the Spirit, and he does dwell with those who believe in him; That’s how I know that Muhammad was not the last prophet; and how I know where you are headed, as you have already committed the unforgivable SIN; BLASPHEMY against the HOLY SPIRIT. By teaching (* against *) the Spirit of TRUTH, who is JESUS CHRIST THE SON OF GOD.
__________________________________________
Jamila Writes;
PPS. The 'allon' in 'allon parakletos' means another (thing/person) alike, rather than another different (ie: heteron). If Jesus is a parakletos, then the other will be of the same nature as Jesus, a man from God bearing his message. Who was that man?
Was it St. Paul, (Satan Saul)?
Was it Josephus?
Was it Mr. Smith?
Was it Billy Graham?
Or was it Muhammad, solah allahu alayhi wassalam?
Eve replies;
The Comforter does mean ALIKE; BUT its NOT a Human Man, as it is the Image of Jesus known as the Spirit of Truth, exactly what he stood for (* THE TRUTH *) as he was here in the flesh and NOW he is here in the Spirit.
So the answer to your questions above is; NO NO NO NO and NO !!.
EVE…….
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 3aber sabeel
[B]
1) Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and would believe in doctrines made not by God but by man: Matthew 15:9: "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Eve replies;
You have the scripture right, But the wrong religion; as Christians believe in the Commandments of GOD; unlike Muslims who go by what Muhammad commanded them to do, thereby going by the commandments of a man.
________________________________
All miracles performed by Jesus have been done by previous prophets, disciples, and even unbelievers.
Eve replies;
NAME THE PROPHETS from before, that did what JESUS did.
Here are a few things he did;
He turned water to wine,
He walked on water.
He made the blind to see.
He made the lame walk.
He made the sick, healed
He called the dead back to life.
He calmed a raging Sea.
He made devils to leave a person and enter into pigs.
He caused more food to come back in the baskets from feeding the people, after they were all full, then what was in them in the beginning.
He came back to life after he was dead, as he said he would.
He caused money to come out of a fishes mouth.
He could read peoples thoughts.
He forgave a woman of her sin.
He could foretell what people were going to do.
___________________________________
On the other hand, Jesus could do no mighty work where there was unbelief: Mark 6:5-6: "And he could there do no mighty work save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. and he marveled because of their unbelief. And he went around about the villages, teaching."
Eve replies;
Jesus said Ask and it shall be given; but if you don't believe or trust in him, How can you ask? Thats why he went about teaching, so they could believe, then they could ask anything of him and it would be done. Thats what the Gospels are all about, to teach the word of God, so all will have a chance to know and be able to ask.
EVE....
balqees
07-09-02, 03:01 PM
Assalaamu alaikum ya muslimeen.
Eve:
1. I have relayed to you what experiences I have had with fellow Americans...in their impressions and total bias against anything strange and different...and their bigotry against Arabs, the language of Arabic, and muslims and islam...in their considering them as 'backwards' as a relating theme with their writings. Of course, they do not consider the same or similar of the Jews because of their hebrew...but it is considerably different when arabs or muslims are concerned.
2. I am an American, Eve...just happen to also be a muslim. And, by they way...not living on the sands of America...those sands that you describe as so beautiful. Did you know...that the whole world, actually...is the creation of Allah..and therefore all the lands and sands of the world possess such beauty?? ;)
3. As for the miracles performed by Jesus...he did nothing without the permission and grace of the Lord of the Worlds...God. Without such permission...no such miracles would have been possible to begin with.
And...as for miracles...Moses' cane turned to a snake. He turned the water of the river to blood. All this by the grace and permission of God. As well, he was enabled to bring on the torments of the locusts, frogs, and other such epidemics. Again, by the grace and permission of God.
Mohammed was also granted much in the form of miracles. The most evident and everlasting of all is the miracle of the message of the Quran, which has been protected to remain in contact thru the ages of humanity, in it's original form as it was revealed to the Messenger. Yet there were also other miracles given to Mohammed. At a time when there was no beverage for the drinking of the masses, Mohammed was blessed to have the water seem to run out from his fingers and hands into the vessel to quench the thirst of the masses present. He was also graced and permitted by God to heal the sick. All, mind you, by the grace of God. Even today, his followers are able to cure many illnesses by reciting verses which he taught them, which are evidences of cures for many ailments. But for those who believe.
In a total round-up here...without the permission and grace of God, nothing is possible. Miracles or otherwise. Jesus or anyone else.
Hope you can understand and get the message, Eve.
And if not..then it is you who are the loser here.
balqees.
3aber sabeel
07-09-02, 05:38 PM
Thank you Eve for the dialogue. It is a privilege to converse with you....
You have wrote:
>>You have the scripture right, But the wrong religion; as Christians believe in the Commandments of GOD; <<
I have two questions for you:
1)Luke said about his recording in 1:2-3:
"Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word. It seemed good to me also, having held perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus."
If Luke had said that he himself was not an eyewitness and the knowledge he gathered was from eyewitnesses and not as words inspired by God, would you still believe that the Bible is God's word?
2)History has shown that the Bible has been changed. The Revised Standard Version (1952 and 1971), The New American Standard Bible and The New World Translation have expunged certain verses that are found in The King James Version. The Reader's Digest has reduced the Old Testament by 50 percent and the New Testament by about 25 percent. Some years ago Christian theologians wanted to "desex" the Bible. Does "holy" mean that the Bible is free from error?
>>unlike Muslims who go by what Muhammad commanded them to do, thereby going by the commandments of a man<<
Allah (SWT) says:
"Your companion (Muhammad SAW) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. He has been taught (this Qur'ân) by one mighty in power [Jibrael (Gabriel)]." [53:2-5].
>>He walked on water.......He calmed a raging Sea. <<
Moses stretched out his arms over the sea: Exodus 14:22: "And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left."
>>He made the blind to see. <<
So could Elisha: II Kings 6:17: "And Elisha prayed, and said: 'Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see.' And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man: and he saw ...", II Kings 6:20: "And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said: 'Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may see.' And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and behold, they were in the midst of Samaria."
Elisha was also told to cause blindness: 11 Kings 6: 18: "And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said: 'Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness.' And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha."
>>He made the sick, healed<<
So could Elisha, who told Naaman the leper to wash in the Jordan river. As recounted in II Kings 5:14: "Then went he [Naaman] down and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God [Elisha]: and his flesh came again like unto a flesh of a little child, and he was clean."
>>He called the dead back to life. <<
Compare that with Elijah: I Kings 17:22: "And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah: and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Such a miracle was also attributed to Elisha: II Kings 4:34: "And he [Elisha] went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands, and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm."
Even touching the bones of Elisha could restore a dead body to life: II Kings 13:21: "And it came to Dass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet."
>>He made devils to leave a person and enter into pigs.<<
Jesus himself admitted that other people can cast out devils: Matthew 12:27 and Luke 11:19: "And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges. "
Also the disciples could cast out devils, as Jesus said: Matthew 7:22: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Even false prophets would do wonders, as prophesied by Jesus himself: Matthew 24:24: "For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
>>He caused more food to come back in the baskets from feeding the people, after they were all full, then what was in them in the beginning.<<
The same was done by Elisha and Elijah. Elisha fed a hundred people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn, for II Kings 4:44 relates: "So he set it before them, and they did eat, and left thereof, according to the word of the Lord." Elisha secured the increase of a widow's oil and he said to her, in II Kings 4:7: "Go, sell the oil, and pay thy debt, and live thou and thy children of the rest." See also I Kings 17:16: "And the barrel of meal wasted not neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he speak by Elijah." Also I Kings 17:6: "And the ravens brought him [Elijah] bread and flesh in the morning, bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook."
>>He came back to life after he was dead, as he said he would. <<
We will talk about his crucifixion later, because there are so many controversies about it. For now, I'll only say that this was said by Paul, who never saw Jesus alive: II Timothy 2:8: "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."
The gospel of resurrection in Mark 16:9-20 has also been removed in many Bibles. If it has not been removed, it is printed in small print or between two brackets and with commentary. See The Revised Standard version, The New American Standard Bible, and The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Let me ask you one thing: Did Jesus ever claim to be God or to say: "Here am I, your God, and worship me?"
Peace
Justicator
07-09-02, 06:47 PM
What is this nonsense .
(he concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story. )
GOD can not be that complicated . One who is and was and will ever . There is no 3 Gods in the Trinity but yes if you are not a learned individual then I suppose that one would assume the Trinity meant 3 ppl .
I think the easiest way to understand the Trinity would be to state ( and do not hold me to this exact or will come back to qualify my answer ) :
The Trinity is the forms that GOD has presented Himself to man . Not that he is 3 seperate people .
Now I know you detest the Bible and state that it is corrupt but surely you can find a version that is not . Try the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate Islam by 650 years and read .
God, as already established (Isaiah 43:10; Deuteronomy 6:4), is made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each member of the godhead is called "God" in the Bible. The Father bears the name God (Galatians 1:1; Titus 1:4; etc.). The Son, or Word (logos), is repeatedly called God in verses like John 1:1,14; Acts 20:28; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8, etc. The Holy Spirit is identified as God in various Scriptures (Acts 5:3-4; 1 John 4:2,3; Hebrews 10:15,16). The concept of the unity within the Trinity is seen in a verse such as Matthew 28:19, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comprise one "name" (singular in Greek).
This is complicated for us humans becuase we are not GOD for who NOTHING is impossible .
NOT 3 GODs but 3 manifestations . GOD can choose to reveal himself in any form he chooses for he alone in infinite .
What is this nonsense?
Originally posted by Justicator
The Trinity is the forms that GOD has presented Himself to man . Not that he is 3 seperate people .
God, as already established (Isaiah 43:10; Deuteronomy 6:4), is made up of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each member of the godhead is called "God" in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 6:4
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!
Deuteronomy 6:5
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Isaiah 43:10
"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me."
Definitely says God is a Trinity, doesn't it?
Mark 12:32
The scribe said to Him, "Right, Teacher; You have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM;
Mark 12:33
AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
Mark 12:34
When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask Him any more questions.
Even Jesus agrees God is Trinity, doesn't he?
The Father bears the name God (Galatians 1:1; Titus 1:4; etc.). The Son, or Word (logos), is repeatedly called God in verses like John 1:1,14; Acts 20:28; John 20:28; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8, etc. The Holy Spirit is identified as God in various Scriptures (Acts 5:3-4; 1 John 4:2,3; Hebrews 10:15,16). The concept of the unity within the Trinity is seen in a verse such as Matthew 28:19, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit comprise one "name" (singular in Greek).
All from the NEW TESTAMENT, which POSTDATES the scrolls AND contravenes them.
This is complicated for us humans becuase we are not GOD for who NOTHING is impossible .
NOT 3 GODs but 3 manifestations . GOD can choose to reveal himself in any form he chooses for he alone in infinite .
5: Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6: I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7: Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Note: I am not sure who is being referred to, here. But whoever it is, he is called by My name
8: Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9: Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Note: Here, the believers are asked to bear witness to THE TRUTH. The Muslims bear witness to the truth: There is no Gods (worthy of worship) but the One God.
10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am He:
Who is He?
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12: I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that
I am God.
13: Yea, before the day was I am He;
and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14: Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
15: I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
ISAIAH 43
Where is your Trinity?
The Three Persons
A “summary” of a theological understanding of Trinity from Christian sources:
The Father is not God as such; for God is not only Father, but also Son and Holy Spirit. The term Father designates that personal distinction in the divine nature in virtue of which God is related to the Son and, through the Son and the Spirit, to the church.
The Son is not God as such; for God is not only Son, but also Father and Holy Spirit. The Son designates that distinction in virtue of which God is related to the Father, and (he) is sent by the Father to redeem the world, and (together) with the Father (he) sends the Holy Spirit .
The Holy Spirit is not God as such; for God is not only Holy Spirit, but also Father and Son. The Holy Spirit designates that distinction in virtue of which God is related to the Father and the Son, and is sent by them to accomplish the work of renewing the ungodly and sanctifying the church .
The ghost makes a funny sort of willess god and the son obeys the father. Sure looks like they are (*equally God). The hierarchical structure of the so called ‘attributes’ you claim these are, point to separation between the, not unity. All the attributes of Allah, according to the teaching of Islam, are total and absolute, and Allah, the infinite, encompasses them all
Below is an abbreviated ‘summary’ of Tauheed.
There are three aspects to Tauheed.
Tauheed al Robbubiyyah: is to believe there is only one Lord of all the Universe, The Creator, Organizer, Planner, Sustainer, Judge and King, who will resurrect us as He created us in the beginning.
Tauheed al Uluhiyyah: is to believe He, Alone, is worthy of our worship. To Him we should pray, for Him we should sacrifice, by Him we should give in charity, for His sake we should fast, and to glorify Him we should make the pilgrimage.
Tauheed al Asma was Sifat: is to believe in all the qualities by which Allah describes himself. He is the All Hearing, All Knowing and Infinite, the Giver of largesse, the Answerer of supplications, and the only One capable of hearing and answering you. There is nothing like unto Him, and he bears no resemblance to Creation (that which is created). Hence, He was neither born (nor has he Origin) nor does he beget.
from The Noble Quran, Appendix 2.
These three aspects are summed up in one short Surah (112):
SAY;
He, Allah (is) the (only) One
Allah, the Self Sufficient (the Depended On),
He begets not, nor was He begotten,
And (there) is not comparable unto Him, anyone.
The Noble Qur’an, word for word.
Who, then, is speaking nonsense?
Jamila :)
Justicator
07-09-02, 10:47 PM
My reply was to this comment .
( The concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story. )
Are you stating that the Trinity is true or not ??? I see you pasted alot of text but don't see much what you were trying to convey to me . Maybe you could clarify in your own words ? Not that I don't like example in an answer but it helps to explain the relevance to the example instead of just posting it as an answer .
3aber sabeel
07-09-02, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Justicator
My reply was to this comment .
( The concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story. )
Are you stating that the Trinity is true or not ??? I see you pasted alot of text but don't see much what you were trying to convey to me . Maybe you could clarify in your own words ? Not that I don't like example in an answer but it helps to explain the relevance to the example instead of just posting it as an answer .
It is said in the First Epistle of John 5:7-8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and these three agree in one."
However, that is in The King James Version, authorized in 1611, and formed the strongest evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. But now this part, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one," has been expunged in The Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text.
I John 5:7-8 in The New American Standard Bible says: "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement." Also, in The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, used by the Jehovah's Witnesses, you will find: "For there are three witness bearers: the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are in agreement." I can understand if you don't know that this important part has been removed, but I wonder why many ministers and preachers are not aware of this.
The Trinity is not biblical. The word "Trinity" is not even in the Bible or Bible dictionaries. It was never taught or mentioned by Jesus. There is no basis or proof in the Bible for its acceptance.
Justicator
07-09-02, 11:08 PM
I am not disagreeing that is not mentioned in the Bible . But we know from the Bible that the Father , Son and Holy Ghost (Spirit )are one in the same not seperate .
3aber sabeel
08-09-02, 12:13 AM
If three persons are sitting or eating together, does it mean that they form one person? No. The formulation of the Trinity by Athanasius, an Egyptian deacon from Alexandria, was accepted by the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD‹more than three centuries after Jesus had left. No doubt Roman paganism had an influence on this doctrine of a triune god. The Sabbath was shifted to Sunday and December 25, the birthday of their sun god Mithra, was introduced as Jesus' birthday, although the Bible clearly predicted and forbade the decoration of Christmas trees in Jeremiah 10:2-5: "Thus saith the Lord: 'Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold, they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."
As Christianity deviated far from the original teachings of Jesus, Allah sent His last prophet, Muhammad, as a revivalist to undo changes made by man: the Roman Julian calendar was introduced as the Christian era; Pork was allowed; circumcision was abolished by Paul (Galatians 5:2: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
The Qur'an warns in Surah 5:73: Surely they are disbelievers, those who said: 'Allah is one of the three in a Trinity.' But there is none who has the right to be worshipped but one God (Allah). And if they cease not from what they say, verily a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them. Do you still believe in the Trinity, which was never taught by Jesus?
Justicator
08-09-02, 12:33 AM
Haha . If only I can get you on one subject at a time 3aber sabeel
. I have a quite a great discussion going on under General > Does Islam follow the Bible please come over and let us debate there so i don't have to answer in 5 seperate threads .
Originally posted by eve
NO NO NO NO and NO !!.
EVE…….
Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them. They will not believe. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their hearing, and on their eyes is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. And of mankind there are some who say, "We believe in God and the Last Day," while in fact they do not. Fain would they decieve Allah and those who believe, but they only decieve themselves, and do not percieve it. And in their hearts is a desease, and Allah has increased it. And a painful torment is theirs because they would tell lies. And when it is said to them, "make not mischief on earth," they say, "we are but peacemakers." Verily, they are the mischief makers, but percieve it not.
Surah al baqara, 6-12
Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire. Then, when it lit up all that surrounded him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. So they could not see. Deaf, dumb and blind, they will not to return to the Path.
Surah al baqara, 17-18
He said, "Oh my people! Verily I am a plain warner to you, to worship Allah alone, fear Him and obey (me). He will forgive you your sins and give you respite for an appointed term. Werily, the term of Allah cannot be delayed, if you but knew."
He said, "Oh my Lord! Verily I have called to my people night and day, but all my calling added nothing but to their flight from the Truth. And, verily, every time I called unto them that you might forgive them, they thrust their fingers into their ears, and covered themselves up with their garments, and persisted in their refusal, and magnified themselves up with pride."
Surah Nuh, 2-7
Jamila :(
Originally posted by Justicator
My reply was to this comment .
( The concept of how trinity is actually one is confusing not oly to muslims and others but confusing to many religious people themselves.
God can just not be that complicated. One God, end of story. )
Are you stating that the Trinity is true or not ??? I see you pasted alot of text but don't see much what you were trying to convey to me . Maybe you could clarify in your own words ? Not that I don't like example in an answer but it helps to explain the relevance to the example instead of just posting it as an answer .
The pasted text is there to get you thinking, if the irony of my questions escape you. It is all liberally interspersed with my comments, which all centre aroud the basic and Eternal Truth of La Ilaha Il Allah (There are no gods {to whom worship will be to you gain} except Allah. This is ammply and repeatedly underlined in Isaiah 43, and testified by Jesus himself, who said (according to your gospel)
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day,
'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them,
'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of evil.'
Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."
Matthew 7:21-25
Comment, or not. It's up to you.
Jamila :)
Why am I a Christian? One night the Holy Spirit came to me in a dream and told me to get ready because there wasn't much time left before his return; then he put the desire in me to learn his words, SOoooo.....,
Islam says that women can be enlightened in dreams, to get their act together. Perhaps this has happened to you, yet you dont realize you have chosen the wrong religion?
Originally posted by Hafiz
Islam says that women can be enlightened in dreams, to get their act together. Perhaps this has happened to you, yet you dont realize you have chosen the wrong religion?
I visit many different churches, I Don't belong to any religion, although what I'm being taught is more or less the same religion as Protestant religion, but I am being taught by the very same person who came to me in my dream; The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of TRUTH who talks to my heart; as I know that you have No idea what that is like as you do not believe that Jesus is the Son of GOD and that Jesus Died for our sins. Jesus promised that If you would believe in him as such; he would send the comforter, also called the Spirit of Truth to those that believe, and I know that the Islamic religion teaches different.
Muslims point out scriptures in our Holy Bible to prove to people that Jesus was just a prophet and not the Son of God. But the scriptures seems to go right over their heads, as when Jesus says things like; The Father sent me, OR I speak not of myself but what I hear from my father and many other similar verses. This verse that I give you explains the trinity pretty much.
1 John 5
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
You see we are all made of flesh, which is made up of mostly water.
But without blood, we have No life here on earth, so we have blood.
Last but not least we all have a Spirit within us; which I can only explain as our guide, to know right from wrong. If one rejects the truth; you are an open door to satan, and then he comes in and plants his Evil seeds, and if they take root; then you are lost without someone telling and teaching you the truth, so then you can make the right choice; thats why we are told in scriptures to spread the Gospel to all nations.
So you see we too are Three in ONE; Just like Jesus, except for ONE BIG difference; His Spirit is GOD, and our Spirit God created in his image.
Therefore those of us who believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God, are blessed with having his Spirit with us, always, as he promised. Which means I don't need the Quran, as it truely does teach false teachings mixed with some truth even if you don't think so, but like I said, when you don't have the Spirit of Truth to teach you, you can't see the Truth, your only hope now would be that God would have mercy on you and give you the true desire to learn the truth, and with His help; All things are possible.
EVE....
3aber sabeel
09-09-02, 08:09 PM
>>Jesus Died for our sins<<
The Doctrine of Atonement, which was accepted by the Church three or four centuries after Jesus left the earth. It contradicts the Bible, as the following passages show:
Deuteronomy 24:16: "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."; Jeremiah 31:30: "But every one shall die for his own iniquity ...", Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." Adam and Eve were responsible for their own sin, which was forgiven by Allah according to the Islamic version.
In the NT:
Jesus himself said in Matthew 7: 1-2.
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
I Corinthians 3:8.
"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one; and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."
The proof that children are born without sin?
In Matthew 19:14.
"But Jesus said: 'Suffer not little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of heaven."
So everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the kingdom of heaven. Do you know that it was Paul who abolished the Mosaic law? Read Acts 13:39.
www.beconvinced.com
Muslim19
12-09-02, 09:06 PM
The Bible Led Me To Islam
Abdul Malik LeBlanc tells how he discovered Islam within the pages of Bible
Taken from International Edition Voice of Islam
November1998 , Page25
During my Christian days there were many verses in the Bible that made me question the religion I was following (Christianity). There was one particular verse, 1 Thessalonians 5 : 17 which says; "pray without ceasing," that lingered heavily in my mind. I often wondered how a person (Christian) was supposed to pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing? Without any biblical or divine guidance, the only way I thought this to be possible was to always do good deeds and keep the remembrance of God on my tongue and in my heart.
Source: Islamway.com -- Comperative Study (http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=232)
Indeed the Lord is Great.
Former pastor, missionary, professor in Divinity chose Islam !
http://english.islamway.com/bindex.php?section=article&id=51
Khadijah 'Sue' Watson - Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master's degree in Divinity "What happened to you !" .....
This was usually the first reaction I encountered when my former classmates, friends and co-pastors saw me after having embraced Islam.
I suppose I couldn't blame them, I was a highly unlikely the person to change religions.
Formerly, I was a professor, pastor, church planter and missionary.
If anyone was a radical fundamentalist it was I. I had just graduated with my Master's Degree of Divinity from an elite seminary five months before. It was after that time I met a lady who had worked in Saudi Arabia and had embraced Islam.
Of course I asked her about the treatment of women in Islam. I was shocked at her answer, it wasn't what I expected so I proceeded to ask other questions relating to Allah and Muhammad (pbuh).
She informed me that she would take me to the Islamic Center where they would be better able to answer my questions. Being prayed up, meaning-asking Jesus for protection against demon spirits seeing that what we had been taught about Islam is that it is Demonic and Satanic religion.
Having taught Evangelism I was quite shocked at their approach, it was direct and straightforward. No intimidation, no harassment, no psychological manipulation, no subliminal influence! None of this, "let's have a Qur'aanic study in your house", like a counter part of the Bible study.
I couldn't believe it! They gave me some books and told me if I had some questions they were available to answer them in the office. That night I read all of the books they gave. It was the first time I had ever read a book about Islam written by a Muslim, we had studied and read books about Islam only written by Christians. The next day I spent three hours at the office asking questions.
This went on everyday for a week, by which time I had read twelve books and knew why Muslims are the hardest people in the world to convert to Christianity.
Why?
Because there is nothing to offer them!! (In Islam) There is a relationship with Allah, forgiveness of sins, salvation and promise of Eternal Life. Naturally, my first question centered on the deity of Allah. Who is this Allah that the Muslims worship? We had been taught as Christians that this is another god, a false god.
When in fact He is the Omniscient-All Knowing, Omnipotent-All Powerful, and Omnipresent-All Present God. The One and Only without co-partners or co-equal.
It is interesting to note that there were bishops during the first three hundred years of the Church that were teaching as the Muslim beli eves that Jesus (pbuh) was a prophet and teacher!! It was only after the conversion of Emperor Constantine that he was the one to call and introduce the doctrine of the Trinity.
He a convert to Christianity who knew nothing of this religion introduced a paganistic concept that goes back to Babylonian times. Because the space does not permit me to go into detail about the subject insha'Allah, another time.
Only I must point out that the word TRINITY is not found in the Bible in any of its many translation nor is it found in the original Greek or Hebrew languages! My other important question centered on Muhammad (pbuh).
Who is this Muhammad? I found out that Muslims do not pray to him like the Christians pray to Jesus. He is not an intermediary and in fact it is forbidden to pray to him. We ask blessing upon him at the end of our prayer but likewise we ask blessings on Abraham. He is a Prophet and a Messenger, the final and last Prophet. In fact, until now, one thousand four hundred and eighteen years (1,418) later there has been no prophet after him.
His message is for All Mankind as opposed to the message of Jesus or Moses (peace be upon them both) which was sent to the Jews. "Hear O Israel" But the message is the same message of Allah. "The Lord Your God is One God and you shall have no other gods before Me."(Mark 12:29).
Because prayer was a very important part of my Christian life I was both interested and curious to know what the Muslims were praying. As Christians we were as ignorant on this aspect of Muslim belief as on the other aspects.
We thought and were taught, that the Muslims were bowing down to the Ka'bah (in Mecca), that that was there god and center point of this false deity. Again, I was shocked to learn that the manner of prayer is prescribed by God, Himself.
The words of the prayer are one of praise and exaltation. The approach to prayer (ablution or washing) in cleanliness is under the direction of Allah. He is a Holy God and it is not for us to approach Him in an arbitrary manner but only reasonable that He should tell us how we should approach Him. At the end of that week after having spent eight (8) years of formal theological studies I knew cognitively (head knowledge) that Islam was true. But I did not embrace Islam at that time because I did not believe it in my heart. I continued to pray, to read the Bible, to attend lectures at the Islamic Center.
I was in earnest asking and seeking God's direction. It is not easy to change your religion. I did not want to loose my salvation if there was salvation to loose. I continued to be shocked and amazed at what I was learning because it was not what I was taught that Islam believed.
In my Master's level, the professor I had was respected as an authority on Islam yet his teaching and that of Christianity in general is full of Misunderstanding. He and many Christians like him are sincere but they are sincerely wrong.
Two months later after having once again prayed seeking God's direction, I felt something drop into my being! I sat up, and it was the first time I was to use the name of Allah, and I said, "Allah, I believe you are the One and Only True God." There was peace that descended upon me and from that day four years ago until now I have never regretted embracing Islam. This decision did not come without trial.
I was fired from my job as I was teaching in two Bible Colleges at that time , ostracized by my former classmates, professors and co-pastors, disowned by my husband's family, misunderstood by my adult children and made a suspicion by my own government. Without the faith that enables man to stand up to Satanic forces I would not ha ve been able to withstand all of this. I am ever so grateful to Allah that I am a Muslim and may I live and die a Muslim. "Truly, my prayer, my service of sacrifice, my life and my death are all for God the Cherisher of the Worlds. No partner has He, this I am commanded. And I am the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam." (Holy Qur'aan 6:162-163)
* Sister Khadijah Watson is presently working as a teacher for women in one of the Da'wah (Invitation) Centers in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Muslim19
13-09-02, 10:54 AM
Allahu Akbar!
Thanks JAmila for the posting.
Wassallam,
Muslim
Originally posted by Muslim19
Allahu Akbar!
Thanks JAmila for the posting.
Wassallam,
Muslim
Khadijah 'Sue' Watson - Former pastor, missionary, professor. Master's degree in Divinity.
Formerly, I was a professor, pastor, church planter and missionary.
I had (*just graduated*) with my Master's Degree of Divinity from an elite seminary (*five months before.*)
EVE REPLIES:
Yeah Jamila, Gee Thanks for posting this story.
I wasn’t going to waste my time with a reply to this story; but as the Spirit moved me to teach the TRUTH; So here I am Lord, obedient to your desires; not mine.
After the Holy Spirit brought to my attention the half truths of the Quran; this story is just a made-up lie.
FIRST: WHERE DID SUE WATSON GO TO COLLEGE?
SECOND: WHERE WAS THE CHURCH SHE PASTORED?
THIRD: WHAT RELIGION WAS SHE?
FORTH: WHERE WAS SHE A MISSIONARY?
FIFTH: WHERE WAS SHE AN EVANGELIST?
_________________________________________________
I was fired from my job as I was teaching in two Bible Colleges at that time , ostracized by my former classmates, professors and co-pastors, disowned by my husband's family, misunderstood by my adult children and made a suspicion by my own government.
Eve replies;
WOW,,> A TEACHER IN COLLEGE ALREADY??!! AFTER GRADUATING JUST FIVE MONTHS EARLIER?? WHAT A FAST MOVE.
EVANGELISM= A preaching of the Gospel; * Earnest effort * for the spreading of the Gospel.
Five months is NOT an EARNEST EFFORT.
MISSIONARY= A Person SENT on a religious mission.
ACCORDING to this story, she would NOT have had enough time to do this, as missionaries are sent out to different countries to be there sometimes years,
----------------------------------
If anyone was a radical fundamentalist it was I.
EVE replies
(* THIS I AGREE,