Aboosait – As You Requested

[Nero]

Aboosait,

As you requested:

.......you would better start a new thread at your earliest and give me a link here so that I can join you.

Can I ask, do you consider that homeopathic treatments work in any way beyond an effective placebo? If so, what would you suggest is the mechanism by which it works?

If you do wish to discuss this, can I also humbly ask that this discussion doesn’t take the form of “cut-and-pastes” from random web sites?

Thanks

[aboosait]

...........the mechanism by which it works?


................(no) “cut-and-pastes” ........


As I told you erlier, I go to the practioner and tell him/her my ailments. S/he gives me some tabblets and tells me the dosage. Thats all I know and I continue till I am cured.

When I go to a new place all I bother to inquire about the practioner is whether s/he has an authentic degree and whether s/he has any experience.

That is my reply without any cut and paste.

As for the mechanism, it is the human body that cures itself. Of course a broken bone needs manual re-setting and a suitable bandage along with the treatment.

[Nero]

Thanks for the reply Aboosait.

From the other thread I was of the opinion that you knew something more substantive re homeopathy, it's clear from your post above that this is not the case.

In light of this, do you want to continue this discussion?

Thanks

[Nero]

In light of this, do you want to continue this discussion?

By lack of response, I'll take it as a no then.

Thanks

[aboosait]

By lack of response, I'll take it as a no then.

Thanks

I told you to prove the already disproved Avagadro's hypothesis on which you were leaning to comment on Hahneman. And this could not have been done in the thread where a member was seeking medical advice.

[nomoreillusions]

Is this discussion limited specifically to homeopathic remedies? (assuming you are both using the correct understanding of homeopathic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy) and are not confusing it with naturopathic or other natural forms of medicines ...)

[aboosait]

Is this discussion limited specifically to homeopathic remedies? (assuming you are both using the correct understanding of homeopathic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy) and are not confusing it with naturopathic or other natural forms of medicines ...)


On the contrary, it is Nero who is supposed to prove the Avagadro's Hypothesis.






.......... Avagadro’s Constant was not “discovered" by Avagadro himself, and that the name of Avagadro was merely used in honour. So any reference to him, or any of his theories, are not really relevant to this thread. The constant, and not the man, is the key................






................As you have expressed your desire to continue your discussion on the hypothesis which even the "inventor" himself was unable to prove, you would better start a new thread at your earliest and give me a link here so that I can join you.

Over to Nero.

[Nero]

Is this discussion limited specifically to homeopathic remedies? (assuming you are both using the correct understanding of homeopathic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy) and are not confusing it with naturopathic or other natural forms of medicines ...)

I was hoping to keep this thread focused on homeopathy, but who knows where it will head.

The Wikipedia definition seems sound.

Thanks

[Nero]

Aboosait,

Let’s be absolutely clear I have not posted any hypothesis be it Avogadro’s or anyone else’s so I’m not entirely sure what you consider has been disproved.

What I have referred to is Avogadro’s Constant let me repeat myself:

As I’m sure you are aware homeopathic treatments work by treating in a “like-by-like” manner, but in a massively diluted format. So for example if you had an upset stomach, a homeopath would prescribe a compound that would normally cause an upset stomach but massively diluted. Typical homeopathic dilutions are circa 30C (Hahnemann’s own invented dilution scale) this translates to a dilution of one part of the supposed active compound into 10^60 parts water.

Now getting back to Avogadro, Avogadro’s constant defines the number of molecules that can be found in a specific volume of any substance. Interestingly it turns out that diluting a substance using Hahnemann’s 30C dilution factor will result in zero molecules of the initial active ingredient ending up in the final “medicinal” treatment. So how does a medicine that contains zero active compounds aid an individual?

Just for completeness, Avogadro’s Constant is a number not a hypothesis.

Thanks

[Joha]

Just for completeness, Avogadro’s Constant is a number not a hypothesis.

Thanks

Homeopathy has always puzzled me.

As a scientist its absurdity is self evident, in terms of all the mechanisms we know.

Yet I see millions and millions of people testifying that it works. I've seen homeopathic medicines, used by family members, which seem to work. My argument has always been though, how do you prove that it works, that it isn't a) a placebo effect, or b) a natural immune response that cures the disease, or c) It is relying on a mechanism/pathway that we're not yet aware of - which is improbably but not impossible.

aboosait, Read up on the origins of Avogadro's number and what it actually means, it isn't something that mysterious or 'random'.

[aboosait]

.

aboosait, Read up on the origins of Avogadro's number.

I what way is it going to help me?

[Nero]

I what way is it going to help me?

Education?

[Joha]

Education?

I what way is it going to help me?

would probably help you understand the difference between Avogadro's number and Avogadro's Hypothesis (law) and when they're 'valid' and when 'they're not'.

[Nero]

So why do homeopathic remedies work, well it is very interesting.

The vast majority of ailments we all fall ill with are by their very nature self-limiting. Have a headache, it will soon go; have a stomach ache, it will soon go; our bodies are very capable of making us feel better in a relatively short period of time. So take nothing, or take something, nine times out of ten you will get better not as a result of the medication you have been prescribed but because your body is very well suited in healing itself.

But the nature of our perception will always associate “getting better” to whatever medication that may have been prescribed. So regardless as to the efficacy of the prescribed medication, because you will normally get better by normal human methods, any belief in the prescribed medicine becomes self full-filling.

What I haven’t as yet touched on is the power of Placebo, it’s late here in the UK I’ll do that tomorrow.

Thanks

[aboosait]

...............What I haven’t as yet touched on is the power of Placebo, it’s late here in the UK I’ll do that tomorrow.



Ok. You have changed your topic from Avagadro to Placebo. No porblem. But please take into consideration the following few words before you type out your opinion on placebos

New research shows that belief in a dummy treatment leads to changes in brain chemistry.

"There have always been people who have said that we could make ourselves better by positive thinking,” says Dr. Michael Selzer, professor of neurology at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. “After pooh-poohing this for years, here are studies that show that our thoughts may actually interact with the brain in a physical way."

New insights into how placebos work may even help scientists figure out how to harness the effect and teach people to train their own brains to help with healing.

[Joha]

On Placebos then, if it's so effective...what's so special about homeopathy?

Why go to all that trouble of diluting arsenic and deadly nightshade and mercury and the like to those sorts of levels when you could just give people distilled water poured into some sugar pills? It'll have the same effect...if this is the mechanism by which homeopathic remedies work.

ps: Placebos do not work on nearly the same level as modern medicines. You'd be lucky if someone with acute septicaemia survived after drinking distilled water...

[aboosait]

On Placebos then, if it's so effective...what's so special about homeopathy?

Why go to all that trouble of diluting arsenic and deadly nightshade and mercury and the like to those sorts of levels when you could just give people distilled water poured into some sugar pills? It'll have the same effect...if this is the mechanism by which homeopathic remedies work.

ps: Placebos do not work on nearly the same level as modern medicines. You'd be lucky if someone with acute septicaemia survived after drinking distilled water...

Did I say that placebos serve as a substitute for medication?

What a practitioner told me the other day was that since the homoeopathic medicines are so powerful that sometimes a weekly or a fortnightly dose of the medicine would be sufficient and increasing the frequencey would be harmful. It is difficult to convince some of the patients and therefore, placebos help in keeping the patient happy and the doctor too.

[Nero]

What a practitioner told me the other day was that since the homoeopathic medicines are so powerful that sometimes a weekly or a fortnightly dose of the medicine would be sufficient and increasing the frequencey would be harmful. It is difficult to convince some of the patients and therefore, placebos help in keeping the patient happy and the doctor too.

Let’s play this out, now remember that a 30C homeopathic dilution will contain zero molecules of the supposed active ingredient, it’s rather difficult to understand how any amount of homeopathic “medicine” can have a negative effect.

Aboosait – How can a substrate that contains nothing be so powerful?

But let’s assume that the practitioner in this case can charge as much for his real placebo as he can for his pretend placebo, a guess he must be coining it in on both sides. Nice work if you can get it.

Thanks

[Nero]

Absooait,

You specifically asked me to start this thread so we could discuss homeopathy. From the posts so far on this thread it’s very noticeable that you are seemingly unwilling to answer my question, despite my obvious willingness to answer yours. So if you would care to be civil:

So how does a medicine that contains zero active compounds aid an individual?

Thanks

[aboosait]

Absooait,

.........You specifically asked me to start this thread so we could discuss homeopathy. ........

Thanks

Please post the link if I ever said that. What I actually said is, I quote:

................As you have expressed your desire to continue your discussion on the hypothesis which even the "inventor" himself was unable to prove, you would better start a new thread at your earliest and give me a link here so that I can join you.

And the hypothesis is not homoeopaty but avagadro's hypothesis.

and the link to that is,http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2685471&postcount=36

[Nero]

Aboosait

As of yet I’ve not posted about Avogadro's hypothesis but I have mentioned Avogadro’s Constant. Can you expand on Avogadro’s hypothesis?

Thanks

[aboosait]

Aboosait

As of yet I’ve not posted about Avogadro's hypothesis but I have mentioned Avogadro’s Constant. Can you expand on Avogadro’s hypothesis?

Thanks

Chemistry was not my major subject. So I would be glad to learn from you.

[Nero]

Aboosait,

It would appear that there this little point in carrying on this discourse. You postulate hypothesis that you are unable/un-willing to discuss, you obfuscate and you refuse to answer simple questions.

I really do feel this to be a shame; I would have appreciated a meaningful discussion. Please let me know when/if you are willing for one.

Thanks

[Joha]

I really do feel this to be a shame; I would have appreciated a meaningful discussion. Please let me know when/if you are willing for one.


I'm disappointed too. I've always tried to find someone who would defend homeopathy using modern science. The only characters I've met are either the 'holistic' healers who ignore most of modern science or the ancient practitioners who prove by 'experience'.

The only interesting line of research was by Benveniste http://jacques.benveniste.org/inmemoriam/inmemeng.html which wasn't really looked on with much favour by the scientific community. His later work was definitely interesting

[Nero]

I'm disappointed too. I've always tried to find someone who would defend homeopathy using modern science. The only characters I've met are either the 'holistic' healers who ignore most of modern science or the ancient practitioners who prove by 'experience'.

The only interesting line of research was by Benveniste http://jacques.benveniste.org/inmemoriam/inmemeng.html which wasn't really looked on with much favour by the scientific community. His later work was definitely interesting

From what I'm aware Benveniste's work was never shown to be reproducible. Never a good start point. Can you post some links to his later work?

Thanks

[Joha]

From what I'm aware Benveniste's work was never shown to be reproducible. Never a good start point. Can you post some links to his later work?

Thanks

I will tomorrow morning. You're right, his work on the 'memory' of water wasn't reproduced (or reproducible)...

I'll be honest, when I first heard of his later work - something to do with recording the 'digital signature' of certain chemicals and then transmitting them to other places, I laughed out loud. It sounded crazy, but reading the link that I just posted, it sounds as it may not have been so insane.

Again, I haven't read the actual papers...

[Mr. Bizzy]

I'm disappointed too. I've always tried to find someone who would defend homeopathy using modern science. The only characters I've met are either the 'holistic' healers who ignore most of modern science or the ancient practitioners who prove by 'experience'.

The only interesting line of research was by Benveniste http://jacques.benveniste.org/inmemoriam/inmemeng.html which wasn't really looked on with much favour by the scientific community. His later work was definitely interesting

Numerous studies have proven that homeopathy can, indeed, be beneficial. One study in the British Medical Journal, for instance, found that people with allergies who received homeopathy had a 28 percent improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3 percent improvement.

A great resource for those of you looking to learn more about homeopathy is Impossible Cure: The Promise of Homeopathy by Amy Lansky, Ph.D.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0972751408/optimalwellnessc

Lansky provides an in-depth account on the history, philosophy and practice of homeopathy, as well as dozens of testimonials on the power of homeopathy in curing various health problems, including her own son’s autism.

Keep in mind though that it takes a very knowledgeable practitioner to develop effective homeopathic remedies. It took Dr. LaValley, who is one such physician, decades to get to the point he is at today. So if you consider homeopathy for yourself, be sure you find an extremely knowledgeable practitioner.

I am a strong believer in energy medicine and would personally always use it over conventional modalities, but please realize that it should be used to support your healthy lifestyle, not be a substitute for it.

[Ruprecht]

I wonder if Aboosait has a homeopathic remedy for ticking off Ze Little Helper...

[Kasim2k7]

How long is aboosait banned for? Does the mods know?