Is passivity/submissiveness a quality for Muslim women?

[Lovetolaugh]

This was my reply to another post. But I am reposting it here.

A passive woman may think of avoiding trouble and endure bad treatments but she and her kids will suffer.

While it is great for a wife to obey her husband if he is obeying Allah (very important), there is no point being obedient to a man who is clearly wrong and abusive. Allah gave a brain to all humans women included and we should use it. A woman who is feminine will have no problem obeying to a husband who has her respect and who is fulfilling his duties. I am not sure but I would think all Muslim women desire a strong man and not a wimp but they don't need to have a child-parent relationship with their husband.

Docile people whether adults or children are the first ones to be abused and bullied. Having a good balance of self-respect and respect for others is important. Islam stands for justice and justice means you don't wrong others and you reject those who wrong and hurt you.

I can not say enough why having docile wives and daughters isn't good for Muslims. You cannot protect your wife and children from the world around them. If your wife or daughter is modest she can still be confident and strong willed. You may be proud of having a shy daughter thinking she is pious and modest but if she is scared of expressing her opinion and speaking up, all her piety won't help when she faces an abuser and we all know that we can find abusers anywhere even in Muslim countries.

A 14 year old Muslim girl has been sexually abused in a school here and nothing was reported to the police (not sure her parents knew) but I have heard people saying she had a low self-esteem and that's why she was targeted. A stereotype or the reality? Maybe the rumors are true since some of us Muslims are promoting women submissiveness.



What do you think? Still prefer a docile wife and daughters?

[Cartman]

I don't want a completely docile wife, because someone has to be tehre to make sure I don't mess up from time to time and put it in crucial input towards important decisions...

but I don't want a damn devil for a wife either

[GuCcI]

there has to be a balance.

same goes to say for mr. hubby too.

[afsalim]

there has to be a balance.

same goes to say for mr. hubby too.

WHOA...!!!!!!

Where have you been sis?

[Metroid]

there has to be a balance.

same goes to say for mr. hubby too.

Ghost:rubeyes:

[RazielTemp]

This was my reply to another post. But I am reposting it here.

A passive woman may think of avoiding trouble and endure bad treatments but she and her kids will suffer.

While it is great for a wife to obey her husband if he is obeying Allah (very important), there is no point being obedient to a man who is clearly wrong and abusive. Allah gave a brain to all humans women included and we should use it. A woman who is feminine will have no problem obeying to a husband who has her respect and who is fulfilling his duties. I am not sure but I would think all Muslim women desire a strong man and not a wimp but they don't need to have a child-parent relationship with their husband.

Docile people whether adults or children are the first ones to be abused and bullied. Having a good balance of self-respect and respect for others is important. Islam stands for justice and justice means you don't wrong others and you reject those who wrong and hurt you.

I can not say enough why having docile wives and daughters isn't good for Muslims. You cannot protect your wife and children from the world around them. If your wife or daughter is modest she can still be confident and strong willed. You may be proud of having a shy daughter thinking she is pious and modest but if she is scared of expressing her opinion and speaking up, all her piety won't help when she faces an abuser and we all know that we can find abusers anywhere even in Muslim countries.

A 14 year old Muslim girl has been sexually abused in a school here and nothing was reported to the police (not sure her parents knew) but I have heard people saying she had a low self-esteem and that's why she was targeted. A stereotype or the reality? Maybe the rumors are true since some of us Muslims are promoting women submissiveness.



What do you think? Still prefer a docile wife and daughters?


Submissiveness To Allah and the commands of Rasul :saw: is necessary for any Muslim be he man or a women,

arrogance and pride and ignorrance etc are rejected by Islam.

Low self esteem? what my Muslim sisters?

some people man or woman may have self esteem, but Alhumdulillah, a Muslim women has no reason to have low self esteem, she is well protected by Islam.

sex abuse is in abundance in Dar-Ul-Kufr unfortunately ...
they glorify sex so much in so many ways its little wonder why it happens so often in western nations ...

a Non-Muslim woman oft has little if any self esteem or self-respect, especially when they expose their private parts and walk half naked attempting to attract the men ...

Most despicable are such people ...

they have arrogance, ignorrance but no self respect ...

regards.

[Rosalie-Beauty]

submissivness should only be given to Allah (SWT)

[Neurostyler]

submissivness should only be given to Allah (SWT)

But obedient to her husband.. or?

[RazielTemp]

But obedient to her husband.. or?

yes, on the condition the Husband does not command Anything Haram/Prohibited to her ...


If he says anything against the Quran or the Sunnah of Rasulullah :saw: it is rejected ... even if our own parents said ...

the same goes vice versa ...

regards.

[in_exile]

This was my reply to another post. But I am reposting it here.

A passive woman may think of avoiding trouble and endure bad treatments but she and her kids will suffer.

While it is great for a wife to obey her husband if he is obeying Allah (very important), there is no point being obedient to a man who is clearly wrong and abusive. Allah gave a brain to all humans women included and we should use it. A woman who is feminine will have no problem obeying to a husband who has her respect and who is fulfilling his duties. I am not sure but I would think all Muslim women desire a strong man and not a wimp but they don't need to have a child-parent relationship with their husband.

Docile people whether adults or children are the first ones to be abused and bullied. Having a good balance of self-respect and respect for others is important. Islam stands for justice and justice means you don't wrong others and you reject those who wrong and hurt you.

I can not say enough why having docile wives and daughters isn't good for Muslims. You cannot protect your wife and children from the world around them. If your wife or daughter is modest she can still be confident and strong willed. You may be proud of having a shy daughter thinking she is pious and modest but if she is scared of expressing her opinion and speaking up, all her piety won't help when she faces an abuser and we all know that we can find abusers anywhere even in Muslim countries.

A 14 year old Muslim girl has been sexually abused in a school here and nothing was reported to the police (not sure her parents knew) but I have heard people saying she had a low self-esteem and that's why she was targeted. A stereotype or the reality? Maybe the rumors are true since some of us Muslims are promoting women submissiveness.



What do you think? Still prefer a docile wife and daughters?

thats like saying there was a woman who was confident and dominating so it made some guy angry and he raped her so you shouldnt be confident and dominating *rolleyes*

the true quality of submissiveness is that once the decision has been made and is final you shut up and accept it. It doesnt mean that you dont have the right to question it or give your own opinion. Its like when you work in a team and your boss asks you for opinions. At the end of it the boss makes the final decision. Now you can keep on moaning and complaining about it, but the decision has been made and any complaints will just lead to bad teamwork...

its the same with the husband and wife, the husband is the boss, he asks opinions listens then makes his final decision.

[Medievalist]

Women should be submissive. Just as children should be submissive, pupils should be submissive, youngsters should be submissive etc. It is the natural order and should be maintained.

If her opinion is asked for she should give it, but if it isn't then she shouldnt really bother. Also just because a woman is submissive doesnt mean she can't stand up for herself, although it is hard to strike the right balance, Im sure some ladies manage it.

Women are weak glass vessels, they need to be protected and are by nature weaker and submissive. :up:

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Obviously a woman's relationship won't be the same with everyone. She would have to respect and obey her husband as long as he abides by Shariah.She doesn't have to obey everyone, nor should be submissive with everyone she comes across, that would be silly.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Women should be submissive. Just as children should be submissive, pupils should be submissive, youngsters should be submissive etc. It is the natural order and should be maintained.

If her opinion is asked for she should give it, but if it isn't then she shouldnt really bother. Also just because a woman is submissive doesnt mean she can't stand up for herself, although it is hard to strike the right balance, Im sure some ladies manage it.

Women are weak glass vessles, they need to be protected and are by nature weaker and submissive. :up:

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. My husband doesn't have to ask for my opinion; we're a team. If I feel I want to give my opinion, I give it, and he listens. Vice versa. I don't believe in the mantra of "Children should be seen and not heard unless spoken to" so I certainly don't think a grown woman should be subjected to that medieval mentality. Women are not 'weak glass vessels'; where did you get that assertion from?

[in_exile]

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. My husband doesn't have to ask for my opinion; we're a team. If I feel I want to give my opinion, I give it, and he listens. Vice versa. I don't believe in the mantra of "Children should be seen and not heard unless spoken to" so I certainly don't think a grown woman should be subjected to that medieval mentality. Women are not 'weak glass vessels'; where did you get that assertion from?

what do you do if he rejects your opinion?

[sis_niqabi]

Salam

a woman should listen to her husband but that doesn't mean she does everything he says without question. because men are not perfect. sometimes men ask their wives to do stupid and even haraam things.


Women should be submissive. Just as children should be submissive, pupils should be submissive, youngsters should be submissive etc. It is the natural order and should be maintained.


comparing women to children i see? women are not children they are adults. and men should treat their wives like adults. men shouldn't just be giving out orders like parent does to their child. women have feelings and just like men, women do not like being treated like a robot which is given orders and is not allowed to question them.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

what do you do if he rejects your opinion?

Then he'd better have a good reason ;)

[in_exile]

Then he'd better have a good reason ;)

what if his reason is cus he doesnt like what your saying and that is that end of

[KhalisahdaGreat]

what if his reason is cus he doesnt like what your saying and that is that end of

My husband is smart enough not to give that as a reason :D. Seriously though, he's not a domineering person at all and he actually cares about my feelings and opinions.

[in_exile]

My husband is smart enough not to give that as a reason :D. Seriously though, he's not a domineering person at all and he actually cares about my feelings and opinions.

great way to avoid the question *rolleyes*

[KhalisahdaGreat]

great way to avoid the question *rolleyes*

I didn't avoid it at all. My husband wouldn't reject my opinion just because he doesn't like what I have to say. He'd take the time to find out why I think the way I do, and we'd have a discussion about it BECAUSE he actually cares what I think.

[in_exile]

I didn't avoid it at all. My husband wouldn't reject my opinion just because he doesn't like what I have to say. He'd take the time to find out why I think the way I do, and we'd have a discussion about it BECAUSE he actually cares what I think.

there always always always comes a time when you reject or refuse an opinion...

for example...

family needs a car, husband wants a bmw 5 series in black, wife wants a people carrier in blue... there can only be one winner here! after talking and talking and talking... eventually husband has to make a decision, and if he has any sense he will choose 5 series in black...now how does the wife react to that?

[KhalisahdaGreat]

there always always always comes a time when you reject or refuse an opinion...

for example...

family needs a car, husband wants a bmw 5 series in black, wife wants a people carrier in blue... there can only be one winner here! after talking and talking and talking... eventually husband has to make a decision, and if he has any sense he will choose 5 series in black...now how does the wife react to that?

Yes, but that's after a DISCUSSION. As a husband you don't just arbitrarily make decisions on your own, nor do you just ask the wife her opinion so that you can pat yourself on the back for being a 'good husband', if you don't bother to listen to that opinion in the first place. Also, the husband's going to make the decision based on what's good for the family, not what's good for himself or what he thinks is 'cool'. If the 'people carrier' is all they can reasonably afford on his salary then he needs to listen to the wife if she offers that opinion otherwise he's putting family cohesiveness and well-being in jeopardy.

[Fais]

:rotfl: ...

[`asiya]

But obedient to her husband.. or?Allah says in the Quran "Men are the maintainers and protectors of women, for Allah has made one to have greater responsibilities over the other, and because they spend of their wealth, their property (for the support of women)" Surah 4 ayah 34

explanation:

The Arabic word used in this verse is " "qawwâmûn" the plural of "qawwâm". This word - qawwâm -a form of the word "qayyim", which means a person who manages the affairs of others. The qayyim of a people is the one who governs their affairs. When Allah says: "Men are the qawwâmûn of women" it means that men are held liable for handling the affairs of women and are responsible before Allah for the women under their care, whether this is their mothers who are widowed, wives or daughters.

so Allah has placed men with the greater degree of responsibility over women ie: in caring for them providing for them,and taking care of the problems in life that may arise, this takes the burden off a woman as she has other responsibilities such as the children to care for and yes we obey our husbands because our husbands are described as shepards over their flocks ( their families ) and the prophet peace be upon him said that any man who does not sincerely discharge his duties to his family will not smell the fragrance of al jannah" so its a serious thing.

so yes we obey our husbands and thats not a problem as a husband is only going to have our best interests at heart and ask his wife to do that which in in obedience to Allah, u know the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth, and u cant have more than one captain on a ship, at the end of the day a man of course will consult his wife and take on board her opinion no doubt in that, but he has to be the one to answer to Allah for his family and so he is going to have to make the final decision and to be honest i wouldn't like to be in his shoes as its such a grave matter to stand before Allah on the day of judgment and answer for those decisions.

it is a fact that a woman is more emotional by nature no doubt in that, her body is in a constant state of change due to her monthly cycle, then the menopause, and hormones as most honest women will attest to can have a great effect on us, hence why the burden is placed upon a man whoose body only goes through one change, from childhood to manhood. and the prophet Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him, has ordered men to be kind to women to overlook their faults and weaknesses and even when returning from a journey to tell his wife in advance he is coming so as "not to spy into their (wives) lapses" this doesn't mean women are "docile" or "submissive" as often thought of in the western sense, we only have to look to the women in the time of the prophet peace and blessings be upon him to see they were far from that, they were intelligent, assertive and certainly knew when to step forward, assisting their husbands and being their supporters and taking descisions in time of need.

( check these women out, these are the muslim womans role models http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90099 )



Allah says in the Quran that he has created us to be "as garments for one another" the prophet peace and blessings be upon him, warned men so many times to fear Allah in regards to women, and to be kind to women,

the prophet peace be upon him said "Fear Allah regarding women! Verily you have married them with the trust of Allah, and made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have got (rights) over them, and they have got (rights) over you, in respect of their food and clothing according to your means."

Narrated Abu Huraira, The Prophet said, "Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day should not hurt (trouble) his neighbor. And I advise you to take care of the women, for they are created from a rib and the most curved portion of the rib is its upper part; if you try to straighten it, it will break, and if you leave it, it will remain curved, so I urge you to take care of the women." so its all about team work and each knowing their role in marriage.

Women are not 'weak glass vessels'; where did you get that assertion from?

sahih muslim Volume 8, Book 73, Number 229:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet was on a journey and a slave named Anjasha was chanting (singing) for the camels to let them go fast (while driving). The Prophet said, "O Anjasha, drive slowly (the camels) with the glass vessels!" Abu Qilaba said, "By the glass vessels' he meant the women (riding the camels)."

sahih muslim Volume 8, Book 73, Number 230:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet had a Had (a camel driver) called Anjasha, and he had a nice voice. The Prophet said to him, "(Drive) slowly, O Anjasha! Do not break the glass vessels!" And Qatada said, "(By vessels') he meant the weak women."

nothing wrong in this sister, again we have to take our understanding from an islamic point of view and not what this may insinuate in the western world.

[Tahiyah]

I don't want a completely docile wife, because someone has to be tehre to make sure I don't mess up from time to time and put it in crucial input towards important decisions...

but I don't want a damn devil for a wife either

cartman, sometimes you really crack me up :rotfl:

inshaa Allah, Allah will bless you with a wonderful pious wife

[Cartman]

cartman, sometimes you really crack me up :rotfl:

inshaa Allah, Allah will bless you with a wonderful pious wife

ameen and may she be stunningly beautiful inside and out

[Tahiyah]

there always always always comes a time when you reject or refuse an opinion...

for example...

family needs a car, husband wants a bmw 5 series in black, wife wants a people carrier in blue... there can only be one winner here! after talking and talking and talking... eventually husband has to make a decision, and if he has any sense he will choose 5 series in black...now how does the wife react to that?

she reacts by piling her and the kids all into his nice car. did i mention that kids are messy and love to spill things in vehicles?

[`asiya]

lol i`d if he wants the beemer no problemo sounds good to me, and the kids wont be eating and drinking in it thats fer sure :up:

[Joha]

she reacts by piling her and the kids all into his nice car. did i mention that kids are messy and love to spill things in vehicles?

lol, sweet vengeance!

[RazielTemp]

I don't want a completely docile wife, because someone has to be tehre to make sure I don't mess up from time to time and put it in crucial input towards important decisions...

but I don't want a damn devil for a wife either

:D :jkk: Insha'allah your wife will be there to sort out your blunders... :D :outta:

Now I know the way you wrote it sounds funny, really funny but that part underlined is very Crucial akhi, very Cruicial ... :D:up: :D

the Input of a Righteous WIfe is Invaluable ...

lol :rotfl:

[RazielTemp]

there always always always comes a time when you reject or refuse an opinion...

for example...

family needs a car, husband wants a bmw 5 series in black, wife wants a people carrier in blue... there can only be one winner here! after talking and talking and talking... eventually husband has to make a decision, and if he has any sense he will choose 5 series in black...now how does the wife react to that?

er ... a)Don't talk to me ...
b)I'm going to my pareents for a few weeks ...
c) You never listen to anything I say ...

or maybe something else ...

lol,

:jkk:

[Ebony]

Desirable quality for some. Its more to do with having someone who doesn't pick a fight and argue over every single issue, problem and point made purely to "get one" over the other. Thats just immature.

And you might not always like or agree with what your wife/husband says, but thats just human natue. People upset one another and argue and then make up again. To hold a grudge or dismiss someone because you don't like what they say is stupid, especially if this person is your spouse.

And submissivness is not the same as humility, being docile is not the same as being shy, and being passive isn't the same as lazyness.

[Cartman]

:D :jkk: Insha'allah your wife will be there to sort out your blunders... :D :outta:

Now I know the way you wrote it sounds funny, really funny but that part underlined is very Crucial akhi, very Cruicial ... :D:up: :D

the Input of a Righteous WIfe is Invaluable ...

lol :rotfl:



spell check says cruicial is wrong...


I win :hidban:

[Medievalist]

Salam

a woman should listen to her husband but that doesn't mean she does everything he says without question. because men are not perfect. sometimes men ask their wives to do stupid and even haraam things.




comparing women to children i see? women are not children they are adults. and men should treat their wives like adults. men shouldn't just be giving out orders like parent does to their child. women have feelings and just like men, women do not like being treated like a robot which is given orders and is not allowed to question them.

children can also be adults **roll eyes**
They still have to be submissive to their parents. :)

Khalisah: the glass vessels comment has been responded to by asiyah.

[sis_niqabi]

children can also be adults **roll eyes**
They still have to be submissive to their parents. :)


my point was that you do not treat your wife like you treat your kids. don't you think it would be rude if a wife wanted to give her opinion on something the husband tells her to do and he goes all like "woman shut up! i don't care what you think".

i mean really. Allah does order the woman to obey her husband, however that doesn't mean it's haraam for her to question him on something.

[Medievalist]

my point was that you do not treat your wife like you treat your kids. don't you think it would be rude if a wife wanted to give her opinion on something the husband tells her to do and he goes all like "woman shut up! i don't care what you think".

i mean really. Allah does order the woman to obey her husband, however that doesn't mean it's haraam for her to question him on something.

We're not meant to be rude to people so he shouldn;t say shut yer mouth, but he might say - I've made the decision. Thank you.

You shouldnt really say to your kids - "Child shut up! I dont care what you think!" so why would you say it to an adult??

At the end of teh day you just politely say you're opinion is not warranted in this situation. Go and make me some tea. simple. :)

[Cartman]

We're not meant to be rude to people so he shouldn;t say shut yer mouth, but he might say - I've made the decision. Thank you.

You shouldnt really say to your kids - "Child shut up! I dont care what you think!" so why would you say it to an adult??

At the end of teh day you just politely say you're opinion is not warranted in this situation. Go and make me some tea. simple. :)

wow that is the way people talk to kids...not another adult who is of sound mind

I have to wonder medievalist, are you married?

with an attitude liek that, you're not goign to attract very many potential wives.

really with an attitude like that, no one would liek you

[Danniella]

what do you do if he rejects your opinion?

If he is rejecting the wife's opinion for no valid reason other than to be a tyrant and bully and assert his authority, then he should be reminded that he is being disobedient to Allah for not allowing his wife to contribute to a mutual discussion within their marriage.

[Medievalist]

wow that is the way people talk to kids...not another adult who is of sound mind

I have to wonder medievalist, are you married?

with an attitude liek that, you're not goign to attract very many potential wives.

really with an attitude like that, no one would liek you

kids **roll eyes**

Obviously Im married and alhamdulillah.

There are two types of men when it comes to marriage. The leader and the cuckold. Decide which you wanna be, young 'un.

There are some men who are weak or waver in making a decision, they need others input, others to guide them. These type of men need their women to "help" them make a decision because they dont have teh confidence to make a firm decision themselves. Then there's the man who can think clearly and logically and can see what is best for those under him, and he makes his decision and he doesnt need a woman to guide him.

Making mashwarah on things is obviously advisable and our Buzurgs advise mashwarah on things as there is barakah in it. But the mashwarah has to be done with people who are aware of the topic - no point asking a woman which drill to get, she aint gonna know. But making mashwarah with her on things she knows about is good and proper.

Cartman you're young bro and you've got a different take on things - a kinda western take where you need a woman to make decisions with you. Frankly, I dont. If there's something that I need to make mashwarah on - eg buying a car I'll seek advice from my dad and from my brothers and mates - but I wont ask my mum or my wife. I'll just tell my mom that we've decided to get this car, and she'll say ok, point of asking them is to get their permission and out of respect.

But then on things like - we're going to a wedding, how much money do I get written down from our family? Then I wont ask my dad or brothers or mates, I'll ask my mum and my wife, because they know how much is meant to be given. Or if we thinking of buying a washing machine - then I'll ask my mum and my wife to look in catelogue and decide which they think is best - because they the ones who gonna be using it. Ya get me?

[Cartman]

kids **roll eyes**

Obviously Im married and alhamdulillah.

There are two types of men when it comes to marriage. The leader and the cuckold. Decide which you wanna be, young 'un.
alhamdulillah

and your wife is completely submissive and docile and lets you talk to her like that and doesn't argue with you or question you in any way....


:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:
Oh my, good luck keeping that up, but may allah bless your marriage

[.: Anna :.]

I don't know why people are making such a fuss about what he is saying... sometimes there is a decision to be made and if both didn't agree on it, then one person will have to make the final choice, and in some cases it is husband. Obviously there is a way to say it, like not in a rude or degrading way but if he feels his decision will be the best, it's not such a crime for the husband to have the final say. Just do it in a way that makes wife feel okay about the decision. Even if you discuss about it, which sometimes is good to do, husband might still want to stick to his original decision, there's nothing wrong with it. If you marry someone you should trust his decision making skills, that he won't chose to do something which will be bad for his family or really stupid.

Also making comments to members on the forum like "you will not attract any potential wives" is quite rude because this could be like a personal insult, so could people please make their point without resorting to that kind of thing insha allah.

[Cartman]

I agree that the husband is the final decision maker, but saying thigns like "I've made the decision" when your wife tries to put in some input is not the wisest thing to do....
but oh wel,, to each his own

[Medievalist]

cartman: luck aint needed. but ameen to your du'a.

editted: just read your comment. cartman you aint married so your points are hypothetical and imaginery anyway.

Anna: gud point. Im so hurt by cartman saying Im not gonna get a wife :crying:






jokezz

[.: Anna :.]

I agree that the husband is the final decision maker, but saying thigns like "I've made the decision" when your wife tries to put in some input is not the wisest thing to do....
but oh wel,, to each his own

but sometimes it needs to be said, to stop the issue dragging out? i mean said in a nice way...
i dont see how its a big deal

[Cartman]

cartman: luck aint needed. but ameen to your du'a.

editted: just read your comment. cartman you aint married so your points are hypothetical and imaginery anyway.

Anna: gud point. Im so hurt by cartman saying Im not gonna get a wife :crying:






jokezz

well seeing as I just graduated from high school and am not desperate to get married like a lot of people on the forum,....

but, still, common sense and seeing parent's problems goes a long, long way

[Joha]

These type of men need their women to "help" them make a decision because they dont have teh confidence to make a firm decision themselves. Then there's the man who can think clearly and logically and can see what is best for those under him, and he makes his decision and he doesnt need a woman to guide him.


Something quite tasty about a wrong decision made with complete confidence :p

[Pippin1376]

These type of men need their women to "help" them make a decision because they dont have teh confidence to make a firm decision themselves. Then there's the man who can think clearly and logically and can see what is best for those under him, and he makes his decision and he doesnt need a woman to guide him.
Bismillah, this is from the Seerah of the Prophet (SAW) during the Al Hudaibiyah Treaty.

When the peace treaty had been concluded, the Prophet [pbuh] ordered his Companions to slaughter their sacrificial animals, but they were too depressed to do that. The Prophet [SAW] gave instructions in this regard three times but with negative response. He told his wife Umm Salamah about this attitude of his Companions. She advised that he himself take the initiative, slaughter his animal and have his head shaved. Seeing that, the Muslims, with rended hearts, started to slaughter their animals and shave their heads.

The Prophet (SAW) took the advice from his wife. Let's not going to extremes here, yes the man is the decision maker but he shouldn't completely ignore his wife's input. If she has something to input, discuss it and at the end of the day it might be a better suggestion than what you originally had planned.

Let's just follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), he took the advice from his wives and companions and other times he stuck to his guns and stayed firm. Balance is the key and communication is vital in a marriage. Listen to her and let her help you. She'll make tea for you in the process.

[Medievalist]

Pippin: who is saying she cant give input? and who has the courage to disagree with the sunnah of the Nabi :saw: ?

[susu12092]

My husband is smart enough not to give that as a reason :D. Seriously though, he's not a domineering person at all and he actually cares about my feelings and opinions.


As should all muslim men.

[sis_niqabi]

salam

yes the husband is the finale decision maker. but it's not good manners for a man to not taking any of the wife's input. i believe with every decision in that is made in a marriage there has to be a common ground some how in every decision. so that both parties are somewhat happy.

i think men need to realize that their marriage doesn't just revovle around them.

[Pippin1376]

Pippin: who is saying she cant give input? and who has the courage to disagree with the sunnah of the Nabi :saw: ?

These type of men need their women to "help" them make a decision because they dont have th confidence to make a firm decision themselves.
:confused:
Then there's the man who can think clearly and logically and can see what is best for those under him, and he makes his decision and he doesnt need a woman to guide him.
:confused:

What were you trying to say when you made this comment?

[susu12092]

salam

yes the husband is the finale decision maker. but it's not good manners for a man to not taking any of the wife's input. i believe with every decision in that is made in a marriage there has to be a common ground some how in every decision. so that both parties are somewhat happy.

i think men need to realize that their marriage doesn't just revovle around them.


I agree, and there are some men who take advantage of their marriage rights in islam. no good.

[Medievalist]

Pippin: It means some people need a woman to help them make a decision, that they need someone else to say - yes you are right, before they make a decision. The other type of man - if he sees a decision as right he takes it, he doesnt need a womans approval to make that decision.

In the instance which you quoted of Nabi :saw: - They :saw: saw that the mashwarah was good and they acted on it. It doesnt mean that Nabi :saw: was in that group of men who need a womans approval to make a decision.

Put it like this - Man decides x but he doesnt have the confidence in his own decision into implementation, so he looks to his wife to "help" him. Thats the weak man.

In another case - Man decides x - if his wife agrees to it or not, it doesnt bother him because he knows that he has made the right decision and implements it.

Hope thats clear.

Also - if we extend your example. Nabi :saw: also made mashwarah with Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan on issues - but the ultimate decision was theirs. They :saw: didnt need the approval of the Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan to be sure of their decision. Its irrelevant how a man gets the idea - whether its from his own education or his reading or his friends or his wife - what matters is - does he have the confidence to make a decision on his own? :)

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Pippin: It means some people need a woman to help them make a decision, that they need someone else to say - yes you are right, before they make a decision. The other type of man - if he sees a decision as right he takes it, he doesnt need a womans approval to make that decision.

In the instance which you quoted of Nabi :saw: - They :saw: saw that the mashwarah was good and they acted on it. It doesnt mean that Nabi :saw: was in that group of men who need a womans approval to make a decision.

Put it like this - Man decides x but he doesnt have the confidence in his own decision into implementation, so he looks to his wife to "help" him. Thats the weak man.

In another case - Man decides x - if his wife agrees to it or not, it doesnt bother him because he knows that he has made the right decision and implements it.

Hope thats clear.

Also - if we extend your example. Nabi :saw: also made mashwarah with Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan on issues - but the ultimate decision was theirs. They :saw: didnt need the approval of the Sahaabah Karaam alayhim ridhwaan to be sure of their decision. Its irrelevant how a man gets the idea - whether its from his own education or his reading or his friends or his wife - what matters is - does he have the confidence to make a decision on his own? :)

I think your views are more cultural than anything else.

The Prophet (Saws) took the advice of Umm Salamah (his wife) at a crucial time at the conclusion of the treaty of Hudaibiyyah.

When the peace treaty had been concluded, the Prophet [pbuh] ordered his Companions to slaughter their sacrificial animals, but they were too depressed to do that. The Prophet [pbuh] gave instructions in this regard three times but with negative response. He told his wife Umm Salamah about this attitude of his Companions. She advised that he himself take the initiative, slaughter his animal and have his head shaved. Seeing that, the Muslims, with rended hearts, started to slaughter their animals and shave their heads. They even almost killed one another because of their distress.


If a man takes his wife's advice, it doesn't mean he is 'weak', it can mean that she has a point. Obviously the end decision is his, but what's wrong with deciding her opinion is good, or asking her for advice?

[Medievalist]

You are entitled to your view.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

I don't know why people are making such a fuss about what he is saying... sometimes there is a decision to be made and if both didn't agree on it, then one person will have to make the final choice, and in some cases it is husband. Obviously there is a way to say it, like not in a rude or degrading way but if he feels his decision will be the best, it's not such a crime for the husband to have the final say. Just do it in a way that makes wife feel okay about the decision. Even if you discuss about it, which sometimes is good to do, husband might still want to stick to his original decision, there's nothing wrong with it. If you marry someone you should trust his decision making skills, that he won't chose to do something which will be bad for his family or really stupid.

Yes, sister, but that's not what this man is saying. No one disagrees that it's the husband who will have to make the final choice regarding decisions in a family. He's saying that since he's the husband that he rules over the wife as an adult rules over a child, meaning, he doesn't need to consult her or care about her feelings. He makes decisions and she, his property, should just go along, because obviously the 'little woman' isn't intelligent enough to be considered a friend and an equal partner in his union. May Allah bless his marriage.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

You are entitled to your view.

It isn't her 'view', it's the example of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, which you obviously aren't following in this regard. Allahu 3lem I guess.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

You are entitled to your view.

Of course, but please don't label men as 'weak' just because they take the advice of their wives. That's not an Islamic view, it's a cultural one, if your wife is happy that you think that way, then no problem.....

At least I have evidence from sunnah for my view.

May Allah bless your marriage ameen.

[Medievalist]

Khalisah: So its ok for parents to make a decision for teh child, its ok for a teacher to make a decision for a pupil, but its not ok for a husband to make a decision for the wife? :scratch:

Especially when its established that in the religion the husbands rank over his wife is greater than the rank of any creation over another creation?


hmmmmm. Nabi :saw: stated to the effect that if he were to command any creation to prostrate before another creation - he would have commanded teh wife to prostrate her husband (not a son to his father or a pupil to his teacher). Thats the rank the husband has in the religion - but some deficient women want to feel that they are some how equal.

I really am amazed at women getting jumped up - its ok for a parent to make a decision for their child (and child doesnt have to be a non-pubescent, child can be an adult aswell) yet its not ok for a man to be like that with his wife? hmmmmm

bent logic people.

[Medievalist]

Of course, but please don't label men as 'weak' just because they take the advice of their wives. That's not an Islamic view, it's a cultural one, if your wife is happy that you think that way, then no problem.....

At least I have evidence from sunnah for my view.

I think you need to re-read my post. its about men who need to have their wifes approval who are weak. If gud advice comes from a child you take it.

[Medievalist]

It isn't her 'view', it's the example of the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, which you obviously aren't following in this regard. Allahu 3lem I guess.

Her view is that my stance is cultural. Whats that got to do with the sunnah? :scratch:

and similarly - you need to reread my posts. **roll eyes**

[Umm_Hanzalah]

So its ok for parents to make a decision for teh child, its ok for a teacher to make a decision for a pupil, but its not ok for a husband to make a decision for the wife? :scratch:

Especially when its established that in the religion the husbands rank over his wife is greater than the rank of any creation over another creation?


hmmmmm. Nabi :saw: stated to the effect that if he were to command any creation to prostrate before another creation - he would have commanded teh wife to prostrate her husband (not a son to his father or a pupil to his teacher). Thats the rank the husband has in the religion - but some deficient women want to feel that they are some how equal.

I really am amazed at women getting jumped up - its ok for a parent to make a decision for their child (and child doesnt have to be a non-pubescent, child can be an adult aswell) yet its not ok for a man to be like that with his wife? hmmmmm

bent logic people.

If this post refers to me bro, then I think you've muddled up issues with regards to taking advice from your wife and making the ultimate decision for himself and the whole family. I'm not saying that the wife makes the decision, but she can be equally adept at providing a good enough viewpoint. Whether he chooses to take it or leave it, it's up to him. She shouldn't argue if he has made a decision and it is well within Shariah.

[Medievalist]

Let me put it in context. Im an adult alhamdulillah. Yet Im my parents child. When they make a decision for me then thats the end of the matter - Im intelligent, sane and an adult, I can make my own decisions; but when my father or my mother make a decision for me then my choice finishes. Their obedience is precedence over my adulthood, my intelligence and my sanity.

So it should be for the wife to her husband.

[Medievalist]

If this post refers to me bro, then I think you've muddled up issues with regards to taking advice from your wife and making the ultimate decision for himself and the whole family. I'm not saying that the wife makes the decision, but she can be equally adept at providing a good enough viewpoint. Whether he chooses to take it or leave it, it's up to him. She shouldn't argue if he has made a decision and it is well within Shariah.

the post was for the other one . . . khalisah.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Her view is that my stance is cultural. Whats that got to do with the sunnah? :scratch:

and similarly - you need to reread my posts. **roll eyes**

The sunnah is that the Prophet (Saws) took advice from his wives when he deemed that it was good.

[thurber]

Obviously Im married and alhamdulillah.

So there really is someone out there for everyone?

What marvelous luck. :love:

[Medievalist]

The sunnah is that the Prophet (Saws) took advice from his wives when he deemed that it was good.


But who's disagreeing with that?? :scratch:

[KhalisahdaGreat]

So its ok for parents to make a decision for teh child, its ok for a teacher to make a decision for a pupil, but its not ok for a husband to make a decision for the wife? :scratch:

Especially when its established that in the religion the husbands rank over his wife is greater than the rank of any creation over another creation?


hmmmmm. Nabi :saw: stated to the effect that if he were to command any creation to prostrate before another creation - he would have commanded teh wife to prostrate her husband (not a son to his father or a pupil to his teacher). Thats the rank the husband has in the religion - but some deficient women want to feel that they are some how equal.

I really am amazed at women getting jumped up - its ok for a parent to make a decision for their child (and child doesnt have to be a non-pubescent, child can be an adult aswell) yet its not ok for a man to be like that with his wife? hmmmmm

bent logic people.

:zzz: You're boring me with your flawed, culturally biased logic. I can see why you picked the name 'Medieval' lol. Anyway, that goes back to what I was saying. A higher rank doesn't denote that you are superiour in any way, it means that your God-given position as the decision-maker and provider in the home makes you the boss in the household, the final say-so goes to you. Again, as we've all pointed out, women are NOT children. It's ok for a parent to make a decision for their child because the parent is superiour in intelligence and judgment. Not necessarily the case with a grown man and a grown woman. Allah Ta'Ala made men the heads of their households because he made them PHYSICALLY stronger and gave them other qualities that make them better suited to that role. He never said that women's intelligence was deficient in a manner that would necessitate men ruling over them as parents do children. Women are not 'deficient'; to say so would suggest that Allah made a flawed creation astaghfirullah. The Holy Qur'an says that men and women ARE equal; they just play different roles.

[Medievalist]

So there really is someone out there for everyone?

What marvelous luck. :love:

dont worry. Im sure you'll find some1 **roll eyes**

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Let me put it in context. Im an adult alhamdulillah. Yet Im my parents child. When they make a decision for me then thats the end of the matter - Im intelligent, sane and an adult, I can make my own decisions; but when my father or my mother make a decision for me then my choice finishes. Their obedience is precedence over my adulthood, my intelligence and my sanity.

So it should be for the wife to her husband.

I agree. But my point was that it's ok to take advice from your wife..she might think of something you hadn't thought of. Or even with issues with regards to herself, she can advise you on that as well, and an example is pregnancy. That way you ensure that both your needs are met but the ultimate decision is obviously yours. This is just an example.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Her view is that my stance is cultural. Whats that got to do with the sunnah? :scratch:

and similarly - you need to reread my posts. **roll eyes**

Well you need to start putting Islam BEFORE your culture and use the Prophet SAWS as an example of how to treat your wife, not your culture because culture is flawed but Islam is not. Allahu 3lem.

[Cartman]

Let me put it in context. Im an adult alhamdulillah. Yet Im my parents child. When they make a decision for me then thats the end of the matter - Im intelligent, sane and an adult, I can make my own decisions; but when my father or my mother make a decision for me then my choice finishes. Their obedience is precedence over my adulthood, my intelligence and my sanity.

So it should be for the wife to her husband.

generally parents don't tell their adult kids what to do and dont treat them like children.....

[KhalisahdaGreat]

generally parents don't tell their adult kids what to do and dont treat them like children.....

lol yeah I know. How many parents out there are making decisions for their children once they leave the house? Also, there are some decisions that parents make that the adult child has the right to disagree with, like who to marry and how to raise their own children.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Put it like this - Man decides x but he doesnt have the confidence in his own decision into implementation, so he looks to his wife to "help" him. Thats the weak man.

In another case - Man decides x - if his wife agrees to it or not, it doesnt bother him because he knows that he has made the right decision and implements it.




)

But who's disagreeing with that?? :scratch:

This is what I'm referring to bro. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man asking his wife for help in advising on an issue. That's not a weak man as you say.

[Medievalist]

:zzz: You're boring me with your flawed, culturally biased logic. I can see why you picked the name 'Medieval' lol. Anyway, that goes back to what I was saying. A higher rank doesn't denote that you are superiour in any way, it means that your God-given position as the decision-maker and provider in the home makes you the boss in the household, the final say-so goes to you. Again, as we've all pointed out, women are NOT children. It's ok for a parent to make a decision for their child because the parent is superiour in intelligence and judgment. Not necessarily the case with a grown man and a grown woman. Allah Ta'Ala made men the heads of their households because he made them PHYSICALLY stronger and gave them other qualities that make them better suited to that role. He never said that women's intelligence was deficient in a manner that would necessitate men ruling over them as parents do children. Women are not 'deficient'; to say so would suggest that Allah made a flawed creation astaghfirullah. The Holy Qur'an says that men and women ARE equal; they just play different roles.

I;ve answered this in my previous post:

Let me put it in context. Im an adult alhamdulillah. Yet Im my parents child. When they make a decision for me then thats the end of the matter - Im intelligent, sane and an adult, I can make my own decisions; but when my father or my mother make a decision for me then my choice finishes. Their obedience is precedence over my adulthood, my intelligence and my sanity.

So it should be for the wife to her husband.

Basically you're stance is one of arrogance. I dont have a problem accepting that I will ALWAYS be inferior in social order to my father and mother, to my Teachers etc. I could be the most respected person in my city, but Im still lower than my parents and my teachers. It doesnt bother me, and Im content with it.

For some reason women get in a huff when you say the husband is superior to her. It hurts some womens egos - why should my husband be superior to me? Why should men be superior to women? Its all about the ego and nothing else.

Superiority in taqwa and religion is something known ONLY to ALLAH Ta'ala so it doesn even come into the equation. Yes it is entirely possible the daughter is more pious and righteous than the father or that a wife is more pious than her husband. But these things are matters between ALLAH and individuals.

On a social level - the wife is ALWAYS inferior to the husband, just as a child is ALWAYS inferior to his parents. I think people should make reckoning of themselves and try and identify why they get annoyed at such comments, and will find its the nafs.

I dont have a problem accepting my inferiority to my parents and teachers - regardless of my age. And put it like this - if for example Im a hafiz and my first Ustadji wasn't - it doesnt make a difference. He's my teacher and my senior.

End of.

Khalisah - Im sorry you have difficulty comprehending the points but thats not my concern.

[Medievalist]

This is what I'm referring to bro. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a man asking his wife for help in advising on an issue. That's not a weak man as you say.

The weakness is when a man needs a woman to say "yes yes you are right". **roll eyes**

[Medievalist]

Well you need to start putting Islam BEFORE your culture and use the Prophet SAWS as an example of how to treat your wife, not your culture because culture is flawed but Islam is not. Allahu 3lem.
I think you need to take a bit of your own advice sister and read up on the rank of a husband for the wife from the Prophet :saw:

[Umm_Hanzalah]

The weakness is when a man needs a woman to say "yes yes you are right". **roll eyes**

You mean when he believes that she is wrong, but feels compelled to say that she is right?

[KhalisahdaGreat]

I think you need to take a bit of your own advice sister and read up on the rank of a husband for the wife from the Prophet :saw:

I have read up on it, and I already addressed that. Maybe if you weren't so sure of your intellectual superiourity you could comprehend what I'd written.

[thurber]

The weakness is when a man needs a woman to say "yes yes you are right". **roll eyes**

The strength is when a couple asks each other "What do you think, dear"?

And really take the advice sincerely.

[Medievalist]

You mean when he believes that she is wrong, but feels compelled to say that she is right?


:smack:

No. Look some men are indecisive, yes. They cant make a decision and NEED someone else to tell them that yes tahts the right decision or no thats the wrong decision. Thats a weak man. men who NEED a woman to say "husband your decision is right" - most men nowadays are like this. In every major issue they need the wife to make the decision with him, note the word NEED.



anyways going round in circles:

I've said my bit. and repeated myself a number of times aswell.

At the end of the day, people live their own lives how they wish. I was just speaking from my own way and alhamdulillah I believe its perfectly within the confines of the shari'ah. Those who disagree - well and good - but I dont take these people are religious authorities so it means squatdiddly to me.

Peace out

:salams

[carol_au]

The Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: "Every one of you is a protector and a guardian of his immediate charge and is responsible for the actions of those people who are committed to his charge. A man is a guardian in respect to the family members of his house. A woman is a guardian in respect to her husband's house and his children." [Saheeh al-Bukharee and Saheeh Muslim]

[KhalisahdaGreat]

I;ve answered this in my previous post:



Basically you're stance is one of arrogance. I dont have a problem accepting that I will ALWAYS be inferior in social order to my father and mother, to my Teachers etc. I could be the most respected person in my city, but Im still lower than my parents and my teachers. It doesnt bother me, and Im content with it.

For some reason women get in a huff when you say the husband is superior to her. It hurts some womens egos - why should my husband be superior to me? Why should men be superior to women? Its all about the ego and nothing else.

Superiority in taqwa and religion is something known ONLY to ALLAH Ta'ala so it doesn even come into the equation. Yes it is entirely possible the daughter is more pious and righteous than the father or that a wife is more pious than her husband. But these things are matters between ALLAH and individuals.

On a social level - the wife is ALWAYS inferior to the husband, just as a child is ALWAYS inferior to his parents. I think people should make reckoning of themselves and try and identify why they get annoyed at such comments, and will find its the nafs.

I dont have a problem accepting my inferiority to my parents and teachers - regardless of my age. And put it like this - if for example Im a hafiz and my first Ustadji wasn't - it doesnt make a difference. He's my teacher and my senior.

End of.

Khalisah - Im sorry you have difficulty comprehending the points but thats not my concern.

lol ok whatever. The wife is NOT inferiour in intelligence to the husband; that's just your flawed understanding of Islam based on YOUR culture. Rank in a household, or a business, or the military doesn't denote inferiority or superiority in the sense that you're smarter or more special, and that no one else's opinion matters because you're a 'higher rank'. If ANY general or high-ranking official followed this flawed premise they would lose wars; just ask Rumsfeld. ;) I'm angry because your understand of 'superiour rank' seems to indicate that you feel that women are of inferiour intelligence, and as such, their thoughts and opinions don't matter.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

:smack:

No. Look some men are indecisive, yes. They cant make a decision and NEED someone else to tell them that yes tahts the right decision or no thats the wrong decision. Thats a weak man. men who NEED a woman to say "husband your decision is right" - most men nowadays are like this. In every major issue they need the wife to make the decision with him, note the word NEED.



Maybe there are some men like that (refer everything to their wife, thus leaving the decision making to her), but they might also be some men who WANT to see what their wife's opinion is and weigh it up and then make a decision, nothing wrong with that either. Or, sometimes the wife and husband might clash on something and the husband might compromise without compromising his authority in the marriage as it IS possible for him to be unreasonable too. But overall we agree that taking the advice of your wife isn't a weakness, alhamdulillah.

[carol_au]

This is an excellent article on the subject.. I've posted the first couple of paragraphs.. the rest is worth a read

BTW.. I've heard teachers say we are not created equal we are created with equity. .. We don't have the same roles in life.. but in the roles we have been created to do.. we have all we need to fulfil them properly if we are under submission to our Rabb.


Shura in the family:
why we need it, how to do it


by Abdul Malik Mujahid

Gender relations in Islam are not based on male-female competition as is seen in a number Western societies today. Rather, this relationship is based on gender cooperation. (Quran: 4:32 (http://soundvision.com/info/%7Equran/search.asp?transtable=yusufali&sura=4&ayah=32&word=&Search=Search)).


In the context of the family, the husband is the leader (Qawwam) of the family as defined by God.


However, the power of this leader, like that of all other Islamic leaders, is limited on the one hand by the Quran and the Prophet's teachings, and on the other by Shura or mutual consultation - amruhum shura bainahum (Quran 42:38 (http://soundvision.com/info/%7Equran/search.asp?transtable=yusufali&sura=42&ayah=38&word=&Search=Search)). Shura in this verse is mentioned by God as one of the essential characteristic of a believer along with prayers and justice.

The Muslim family, therefore, like all other Muslim institutions, formal or informal, must be run with mutual consultation.One major cause of problems in the Muslim society today is the absence of Shura. The Shura process, if adopted as a personal behavior and nourished by the family as a way of life, will benefit the Ummah in the long run.


continued here....



http://www.soundvision.com/Info/marriage/shura.asp

[KhalisahdaGreat]

This is an excellent article on the subject.. I've posted the first couple of paragraphs.. the rest is worth a read

BTW.. I've heard teachers say we are not created equal we are created with equity. .. We don't have the same roles in life.. but in the roles we have been created to do.. we have all we need to fulfil them properly if we are under submission to our Rabb.
Shura in the family:
why we need it, how to do it


by Abdul Malik Mujahid

Gender relations in Islam are not based on male-female competition as is seen in a number Western societies today. Rather, this relationship is based on gender cooperation. (Quran: 4:32 (http://soundvision.com/info/%7Equran/search.asp?transtable=yusufali&sura=4&ayah=32&word=&Search=Search)).


In the context of the family, the husband is the leader (Qawwam) of the family as defined by God.


However, the power of this leader, like that of all other Islamic leaders, is limited on the one hand by the Quran and the Prophet's teachings, and on the other by Shura or mutual consultation - amruhum shura bainahum (Quran 42:38 (http://soundvision.com/info/%7Equran/search.asp?transtable=yusufali&sura=42&ayah=38&word=&Search=Search)). Shura in this verse is mentioned by God as one of the essential characteristic of a believer along with prayers and justice.
The Muslim family, therefore, like all other Muslim institutions, formal or informal, must be run with mutual consultation.


continued here....



http://www.soundvision.com/Info/marriage/shura.asp

EXACTLY! This is just what I've been trying to say, but my anger got the best of me astaghfirullah. I feel as if some men look at the notion of them being the 'superiour' in their homes as a competition, as if they need to somehow show that they are better than a woman. The word superiour refers to their roles as LEADERS, not as someone asserting that the other is inferiour. No one who owns a business or runs a military unit refers to their subordinates as their 'inferiours'. Subordination doesn't denote inferiority. It simply means that SOMEONE ELSE, in this case, the husband, has been appointed as a leader and that the subordinate should defer to him for final decision-making, as you can't have too many cooks in the kitchen, as someone said. It doesn't mean that a woman isn't intelligent enough or capable enough to make decisions at all. She just isn't in the leadership role, but as part of a team she should still be consulted. An excellent leader ALWAYS consults the team to see what's best for the whole team, and makes a decision BASED on, but not necessarily from, opinions he receives from subordinates, in this case, the wife. Anyway Allah Ta'ala knows best and I'm not going to argue over this anymore. :rubeyes:

[sis_niqabi]

I really am amazed at women getting jumped up - its ok for a parent to make a decision for their child (and child doesnt have to be a non-pubescent, child can be an adult aswell) yet its not ok for a man to be like that with his wife? hmmmmm

bent logic people.

a parent-child relationship is totally different from a husband-wife relationship. you cannot compare the 2. you do not deal with your children(whether they are young or an adult) like you would deal with your wife.

[in_exile]

seriously people are so immature and so cultural....

the only difference is they accuse asians of being cultural but instead they become cultural themselves, allbeit the western cultural...

let me repeat again for those that can not understand...

1) a wife has the right to have an opinion and to give an opinion
2) the husband SHOULD ask the wifes opinion
3) the husband SHOULD take on board the wifes opinion
4) the husband has the final say in a matter
5) the wife MUST obey the husbands decision

what muslim men hate and why so many of them marry outside the uk is that SOME sisters even after the husband has made the final decision and made the decision after taking on the opinion of his wife and deciding against it, start to moan and throw hissy fits and act like spoilt brats.... that is what muslim men hate...not that they give their opinion but the fact that they can't take having their opinion rejected... and that unfortunately is the culture of the west, that they feel the must force their opinion on their husband and that they do not have to obey them.. and unfortunately they seem to be the loudest muslimahs

[Umm_Hanzalah]

1) a wife has the right to have an opinion and to give an opinion
2) the husband SHOULD ask the wifes opinion
3) the husband SHOULD take on board the wifes opinion
4) the husband has the final say in a matter
5) the wife MUST obey the husbands decision


I don't think you'll find many practicing sisters disagreeing with that...yes even in the West.....

[Enigma Dreamer]

Submissivneness to the Almighty only.

[in_exile]

I don't think you'll find many practicing sisters disagreeing with that...yes even in the West.....

oh you'd be surprised.... they the but types...

yes the husband is in charge but...
yes we must obey him but....
he does know best but...
i would obey him but...

or the other type...

islam is about equality....
this is a partnership...
he must respect my opinion....
he wouldnt do that...
if he did that then i would....

[Umm_Hanzalah]

oh you'd be surprised.... they the but types...

yes the husband is in charge but...
yes we must obey him but....
he does know best but...
i would obey him but...

or the other type...

islam is about equality....
this is a partnership...
he must respect my opinion....
he wouldnt do that...
if he did that then i would....

Ok, I see what you're saying. May Allah help us all, ameen.

[Rasema2008]

oh you'd be surprised.... they the but types...

yes the husband is in charge but...
yes we must obey him but....
he does know best but...
i would obey him but...

or the other type...

islam is about equality....
this is a partnership...
he must respect my opinion....
he wouldnt do that...
if he did that then i would....

**I am a muslim woman who was raised in several different countries and I have seen both women obeying their husbands and not! This is from the western culture..the country I was born in is muslim but is in europe, so feelings on how to obey your husband were a little bit mixed, because women have become other roles in the household...It used to be that women stayed at home and took care of the household and children and family, but now that women work as well, it is a little hard for the women to do both things, so we need help! If a woman works as hard as the man does all day, 8-10hrs a day, then coming home tired, the man cannot expect a "great" homecooked meal, and that everything is orderly..like said, there is equality in Islam, so the man should respect his wife and help, and definitely understand us women more in the modern culture in Islam. ;)

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Yep, as the sister quite rightly pointed if the men fulfill their role and it makes it easier for the woman to fulfil hers and vice versa.

I guess it's an issue of trust as well.....if men can show that they are worthy women will also trust them more to make decisions for them..I guess there are many aspects of Western culture that prevents this trust and worthiness from developing. The men have confidence issues and the women have trust issues with regards to allowing another person to make decisions for them.

[Kal-El]

The term "submissive" in this context of a marriage suggests you or she has no free will or that his will is the only factor hence why you'll find many people not using the analogy. There is no real set of guidelines or check box which by couples dictate their relationship based on. You can't get Woman A who doesn't like the idea of submission (loss of will) and tell her "this is how you must be" in a relationship, the relationship would deteriorate

[carol_au]

I just read a chapter from the "Ideal Musimah" on this subject and very interestingly the author points out that when the Prophet (SAW) first received his revelations.. who did he go to first? Where did he go for comfort, for advice on how to deal with the revelations and what was being asked of him?' Who organised to take him to her cousin who affirmed his Prophethood?

A wife who loves and submits to her husband and believes in him as Khadijah (RA) did, can be an amazing source of comfort, source and peace for her husband.

Ibn Hisham said in his seerah

"Khadejah had faith, and believed in what he brought from Allah. In this way, Allah helped His Prophet (SAW) Whenever he heard hateful words of rejection or disbelief that upset him, Allah would cause to put his spirits high (and revived) when he came back to her. She would encourage and advise him to be patient, to believe in him, and make it easier for him to bear whatever people said or did." May Allah have mercy on her."

Instead of endless discussions on this topic.. let's follow the example of this wonderful wife.. who had the respect and love of her husband, who he loved and trusted all their married life.... and of the husband who was the best of all husbands to his wives.

There are many examples of the Prohet and the Sahaba taking advice from their wives.. but wives, husbands won't accept your advice if you are not giving them the rights they have over you.. Marriage will not be the place of tranquility and peace it is meant to be unless both are submtted first individually and in their marriage to their Lord.

[turquoise]

Salaam,

I'd really like to get brother Medievalist's response to this, based on his previous posts in this thread and the smart/successful women thread. Of course, everyone else is welcome to respond as well :)

My ex-fiance managed to get himself into a mess where he owes $30,000+ on credit cards. This was partly due to ignorance about how these things work in the west, and partly due to general lack of financial sense (his family, while good people, are the very definition of the phrase 'more money than sense'). He kept his growing money problems a secret from everyone, but I eventually figured it out. Had I been married to him and living with him (we were in different countries during this time period), I would have figured it out much sooner, and insha'Allah helped him resolve it before it got to be anywhere near the problem it is now. However, if I'd never been taught about financial matters because 'women don't need to know that', I probably never would have noticed anything 'off' about the situation... not until it all came crashing down and we found ourselves homeless or something.

Interestingly, his family still has no idea. So i guess I'm more financially savvy than his father and brothers...

(I know using credit cards that way is haram. But there are all sorts of other ways to get into a financial mess, so that's not the relevant part of this example.)

The 'women don't need to know this' mentality only works if the man doesn't screw things up. I doubt there are many men who've been supporting themselves for more than a year or two who've never made a well-intentioned but expensively bad financial misjudgment. The same is true for women, of course, but in many cases (such as this one), two heads are better than one.

Also, if I had married him, and I was aware of the financial problems, and he continually ignored my advice to cut back on extravagances to pay back the balance rather than just making the minimum payments and charging even more... what, according to your view, should I have done? Idly minded my own business and pretended I didn't know that the house of cards would soon come crashing down? Is this sufficient grounds for divorce (keeping in mind that, by charging groceries and whatnot to the credit cards, he was 'providing' just fine for the time being)? This is a serious question.

The obvious solution is, of course, don't marry an idiot... and hamdulillah, I didn't :) I'm just curious how far the husband's right to make decisions without consulting his wife actually goes. When she knows that following along with his decisions will obviously be a disaster, what is she supposed to do? If she didn't know enough about the subject matter to question his decisions, that might make for a more peaceful home life short-term, but long-term, it would be an even bigger mess. What's the solution in this case? And would you still think it was better for the woman not to know anything about it?

[PiElle2]

:smack:

No. Look some men are indecisive, yes. They cant make a decision and NEED someone else to tell them that yes tahts the right decision or no thats the wrong decision. Thats a weak man. men who NEED a woman to say "husband your decision is right" - most men nowadays are like this. In every major issue they need the wife to make the decision with him, note the word NEED.



anyways going round in circles:

I've said my bit. and repeated myself a number of times aswell.

At the end of the day, people live their own lives how they wish. I was just speaking from my own way and alhamdulillah I believe its perfectly within the confines of the shari'ah. Those who disagree - well and good - but I dont take these people are religious authorities so it means squatdiddly to me.

Peace out

:salams

i dun think tha'ts an entirely right observation. the prophet used to consult his wives on various matters also, esp. when he encountered the angel in the cave for the first time, he ran back and consulted his wife Khatijah... and she gave an advice that has made Islam possible today. had she been weak in her thinking, then the prophet would not have done what she encouraged him to do.

so no, you do not want a wife who has passive and submission mind for the wrong reason, she has to be passive and submissive towards Allah but not with matters regarding Islam and her family.

true the husband may be the final decision maker in the household, it's good practice to nominate a final decision maker in the family, naturally and usually that role falls in the hands of the husband, because natuarally a man has a stronger voice. a woman's voice is more gentle and it usually get passed by ears like breeze (also by men complain women nag too much) however, this is done so that there's a mutual understanding to avoid confusion in the whole family (imagine your kids running between dad and mom for some decisions), but he stills needs his wife to be able to give sound advice at times when he consult her... so she needs to be strong at times like that... strong mind.

so, a wife may appear passive and submissive by appearance, so she is approachable when her husband or family wants to consult her on certain matter, but that does not mean she has a passive and submissive mind, just for the sake of that, on the contrary she has to have a strong mind esp. when giving advice...

of course there are women who doesn't give you a straight forward answer (i got this from my girlfriends sometimes or people who just talk, but not getting anywhere), that's when you put your foot down.

so the right part you say is when you need to consult her when it comes to certain matters, say, relating to domestic issues, but not all matters, but it's still no harm to consult in matters not relating to her so you both can learn and grow together... as a couple and a family...

:)

[sis_niqabi]

what muslim men hate and why so many of them marry outside the uk is that SOME sisters even after the husband has made the final decision and made the decision after taking on the opinion of his wife and deciding against it, start to moan and throw hissy fits and act like spoilt brats.... that is what muslim men hate...not that they give their opinion but the fact that they can't take having their opinion rejected... and that unfortunately is the culture of the west, that they feel the must force their opinion on their husband and that they do not have to obey them.. and unfortunately they seem to be the loudest muslimahs

but you have to realize that sometimes men do make wrong decisions and sometimes there decisions have bad effects on the family that the husband might not see. this is why sometimes women are not happy with the decisions. like i said just because men are the maintainers and providers doesn't mean they always make the right decisions. no one is perfect.


and i think it's a bit unfair of you to say that only Muslim women in the west are disobedient to their husbands. because i've seen tons of arab/asian women being disobedient to their husbands and they never step foot in the west.

and i'll say again, as i've said in so many threads like this before. it doesn't matter what part of the world a muslimah comes from it depends on how religious she is.

[sis_niqabi]

double post

[Rosalie-Beauty]

Why oh why people cant you throw away your cultural garbage and follow the sunnah of the prophet (SWT)?

[Abu Mu'adh]

i dun think tha'ts an entirely right observation. the prophet used to consult his wives on various matters also, esp. when he encountered the angel in the cave for the first time, he ran back and consulted his wife Khatijah... and she gave an advice that has made Islam possible today. had she been weak in her thinking, then the prophet would not have done what she encouraged him to do.



This is laughable and mere conjecture. What makes you so sure that Islam would not have been made possible had it not been for Khadijah's (ra) 'Thinking'.

[Abu Mu'adh]

seriously people are so immature and so cultural....

the only difference is they accuse asians of being cultural but instead they become cultural themselves, allbeit the western cultural...

let me repeat again for those that can not understand...

1) a wife has the right to have an opinion and to give an opinion
2) the husband SHOULD ask the wifes opinion
3) the husband SHOULD take on board the wifes opinion
4) the husband has the final say in a matter
5) the wife MUST obey the husbands decision

what muslim men hate and why so many of them marry outside the uk is that SOME sisters even after the husband has made the final decision and made the decision after taking on the opinion of his wife and deciding against it, start to moan and throw hissy fits and act like spoilt brats.... that is what muslim men hate...not that they give their opinion but the fact that they can't take having their opinion rejected... and that unfortunately is the culture of the west, that they feel the must force their opinion on their husband and that they do not have to obey them.. and unfortunately they seem to be the loudest muslimahs

Great post, my sentiments exactly.

[carol_au]

Great post, my sentiments exactly.

I am sure most sisters would agree too insha'Allah.

[PiElle2]

This is laughable and mere conjecture. What makes you so sure that Islam would not have been made possible had it not been for Khadijah's (ra) 'Thinking'.

what's so funny, bro?

everything is in Allah's planning.

take it or leave it.

he did go to his wife for opinion, first! not his uncle, not his best friend.

do you think you can do the same...?

and she was his first convert.

[muslimah85]

some poeple got power issues

[carol_au]

This is laughable and mere conjecture. What makes you so sure that Islam would not have been made possible had it not been for Khadijah's (ra) 'Thinking'.

PiElle is correct on this one.. we have no right to conjecture what if.. we have to accept what happened.. it was in the will of Allah and was naseeb for Khadijah to be the person he turned to for support and help.

Please read my earlier post (#96) as this idea is not only from PiElle, but is written in the book "The Ideal Muslimah".. which most Muslimahs would read.. as a recommended book in her behaviour and attitudes and actions and character.

[Danniella]

This is laughable and mere conjecture. What makes you so sure that Islam would not have been made possible had it not been for Khadijah's (ra) 'Thinking'.

You mock someone for (allegedlly) conjecturing and yet you ask them to conjecture 'what if'...Hmmm, you know how Med was saying there are some weak men who need to be helped with their ideas/decisions, i guess you must fall into that category. :D

Seriously, it would be pointless and irrelevant to even consider what if.
You are no better than that hyped-up stereotypical women who refuse to accept a decision/facts.

Prophet Muhammed (SAW) made his decision upon Khadijah (RA) opinions, and a wonderful creation came into existence.

Fact!

Try not to conjecture around it otherwise you will become guilty of being a history revisionist!

[.: Anna :.]

Personal insults are against forum rules so please restrain yourself sister.

[Danniella]

what muslim men hate and why so many of them marry outside the uk is that SOME sisters even after the husband has made the final decision and made the decision after taking on the opinion of his wife and deciding against it, start to moan and throw hissy fits and act like spoilt brats.... that is what muslim men hate...not that they give their opinion but the fact that they can't take having their opinion rejected... and that unfortunately is the culture of the west, that they feel the must force their opinion on their husband and that they do not have to obey them.. and unfortunately they seem to be the loudest muslimahs

Oh why the pointless and false conjecture.
Why cant these brothers accept that the only reason why the majority of these brothers 'go back home' to get married is because they are not marriage material for the sisters.

The only reason why 'back home' sisters marry these unfortunate brothers is because they see such marriages as a means of escaping their poverty-stricken lifestyle.

[Abu Mu'adh]

Not for a second did I deny that Rasul (saw) turned first & foremost to Khadijah (ra), what I had an issue with was the fact the sister said that had she (ra) not been the way she was in her 'thinking' then Islam would not have reached us. One can not say that with such certainty.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

I just read a chapter from the "Ideal Musimah" on this subject and very interestingly the author points out that when the Prophet (SAW) first received his revelations.. who did he go to first? Where did he go for comfort, for advice on how to deal with the revelations and what was being asked of him?' Who organised to take him to her cousin who affirmed his Prophethood?

A wife who loves and submits to her husband and believes in him as Khadijah (RA) did, can be an amazing source of comfort, source and peace for her husband.

Ibn Hisham said in his seerah

"Khadejah had faith, and believed in what he brought from Allah. In this way, Allah helped His Prophet (SAW) Whenever he heard hateful words of rejection or disbelief that upset him, Allah would cause to put his spirits high (and revived) when he came back to her. She would encourage and advise him to be patient, to believe in him, and make it easier for him to bear whatever people said or did." May Allah have mercy on her."

Instead of endless discussions on this topic.. let's follow the example of this wonderful wife.. who had the respect and love of her husband, who he loved and trusted all their married life.... and of the husband who was the best of all husbands to his wives.

There are many examples of the Prohet and the Sahaba taking advice from their wives.. but wives, husbands won't accept your advice if you are not giving them the rights they have over you.. Marriage will not be the place of tranquility and peace it is meant to be unless both are submtted first individually and in their marriage to their Lord.

:jkk: sis carol. :)

[in_exile]

Oh why the pointless and false conjecture.
Why cant these brothers accept that the only reason why the majority of these brothers 'go back home' to get married is because they are not marriage material for the sisters.

The only reason why 'back home' sisters marry these unfortunate brothers is because they see such marriages as a means of escaping their poverty-stricken lifestyle.

keep telling yourself that....

thats why sisters complain about brothers going back home to get married... *rolleyes*

[GuCcI]

keep telling yourself that....

thats why sisters complain about brothers going back home to get married... *rolleyes*

nothing wrong with that -

both my brothers are gonna get married to back home girls inshaaallah :freedom:

[in_exile]

what's so funny, bro?

everything is in Allah's planning.

take it or leave it.

he did go to his wife for opinion, first! not his uncle, not his best friend.

do you think you can do the same...?

and she was his first convert.

yes he came to Khadijah *ra* first and mashallah at how Khadijah *ra* reacted and subhanallah at how she was his ease and his comfort throughout their marriage and alhamhdulillah at how much the prophet *saw* loved Khadijah *ra*...

now ask yourself this, how often did the prophet *saw* spend away from Khadijah *ra*, how much did she have to go through because of him, what did she lose because of what the prophet *saw* did... and then ask unfortunately what some sisters react when their husbands situations put them in bad positions,

the prophet *saw* would come and ask Khadijah for advice like husbands should do with their wives, and then taking into consideration her advice he would make his decisions... has anyone heard of anywhere where Khadijah *ra* naudhubillah argued constantly or bickered with the prophet *saW* on minor matters... or where she asked him why he spent so much time with his friends? did she every criticise the decisions he made?

[PiElle2]

Not for a second did I deny that Rasul (saw) turned first & foremost to Khadijah (ra), what I had an issue with was the fact the sister said that had she (ra) not been the way she was in her 'thinking' then Islam would not have reached us. One can not say that with such certainty.

i'm sure she did 'think' before she spoke. as anyone should be encouraged to do like wise. do you not speak before you 'think'...? this is what we call inspiration - ilham, and the best one must be from Allah. :)

tell me if you still have an issue with that? or do you hate to 'think' that sometimes women do get some things right...? :rolleyes:

do you not 'think' she did not play a big part in the prophet's life in spreading Islam...? ;)

[.: Anna :.]

sis thinking before u speak is not ilham :S don't understand what ur saying?

[PiElle2]

PiElle is correct on this one.. we have no right to conjecture what if.. we have to accept what happened.. it was in the will of Allah and was naseeb for Khadijah to be the person he turned to for support and help.

Please read my earlier post (#96) as this idea is not only from PiElle, but is written in the book "The Ideal Muslimah".. which most Muslimahs would read.. as a recommended book in her behaviour and attitudes and actions and character.


oh yes, inspirations that come to me are not from myself, esp. the good ones, alhamdulillah...

sis carol, i do have the book, bought it quite recently, but have not started reading it... in the same rank is "The ideal muslim" and "The ideal muslim society"...

(what a coincidence...)

:)

[miss-islamic]

yes he came to Khadijah *ra* first and mashallah at how Khadijah *ra* reacted and subhanallah at how she was his ease and his comfort throughout their marriage and alhamhdulillah at how much the prophet *saw* loved Khadijah *ra*...

now ask yourself this, how often did the prophet *saw* spend away from Khadijah *ra*, how much did she have to go through because of him, what did she lose because of what the prophet *saw* did... and then ask unfortunately what some sisters react when their husbands situations put them in bad positions,

the prophet *saw* would come and ask Khadijah for advice like husbands should do with their wives, and then taking into consideration her advice he would make his decisions... has anyone heard of anywhere where Khadijah *ra* naudhubillah argued constantly or bickered with the prophet *saW* on minor matters... or where she asked him why he spent so much time with his friends? did she every criticise the decisions he made?

They did, not Khadijah (r) specifically, but his wives. Even the drivorce incident was based on them complaining about him not spending a lot of money on them (if i'm remembering correctly). The wife who refuse sto accept decisions of her husband is indeed a hyped-up stereotype, like Danniella said. And women don’t complain for no reason. :torture:Anway, a lot of sunnah-owning in this thread too, wooottt!. :D

[Lovetolaugh]

OMG I have been absent 2 days oh maybe 3 and wow 6 pages of discussion! I have to come back to read all that as it is late here.

Salam to all.

[Songbird]

has anyone heard of anywhere where Khadijah *ra* naudhubillah argued constantly or bickered with the prophet *saW* on minor matters... or where she asked him why he spent so much time with his friends? did she every criticise the decisions he made?
Um, can we not compare men of today to the Prophet :saw:?

Many men and a few brothers I personally know spend much time with their friends and hours on the Net. Some actually spend more time online than with their wives and children. Charming, I know.

Whilst I'm not against brothers doing their own thing, you can hardly compare brothers of today, to the Prophet :saw:

One thing I do know is our Nabi :saw: didn't waste his time around his 'friends' [I prefer to call them companions RAA] or farting online as we all tend to do nowadays.

[PiElle2]

sis thinking before u speak is not ilham :S don't understand what ur saying?


sorry sis Anna, didn't mean to confuse you. i said 'inspiration is ilham', not the process of 'thinking before speaking is ilham'. but you cannot deny that it's from inspiration, we have certain thinking... and where do you think we get our ilham (inspiration) from....? hope i am making myself clearer now...?

(i know this word ilham through searching for a muslim name and almost wanted to name myself that when i converted...):o

[PiElle2]

yes he came to Khadijah *ra* first and mashallah at how Khadijah *ra* reacted and subhanallah at how she was his ease and his comfort throughout their marriage and alhamhdulillah at how much the prophet *saw* loved Khadijah *ra*...

now ask yourself this, how often did the prophet *saw* spend away from Khadijah *ra*, how much did she have to go through because of him, what did she lose because of what the prophet *saw* did... and then ask unfortunately what some sisters react when their husbands situations put them in bad positions,

the prophet *saw* would come and ask Khadijah for advice like husbands should do with their wives, and then taking into consideration her advice he would make his decisions... has anyone heard of anywhere where Khadijah *ra* naudhubillah argued constantly or bickered with the prophet *saW* on minor matters... or where she asked him why he spent so much time with his friends? did she every criticise the decisions he made?

you are quite right in what you say and your observations of some of the undesirable characters of some wives...

unfortunately, we do not usually have good examples in our surroundings, that's why self-education, self-improvement is very important for us muslims...

May all the muslimahs find their way to their husbands hearts...

[Umar`]

This was my reply to another post. But I am reposting it here.

A passive woman may think of avoiding trouble and endure bad treatments but she and her kids will suffer.

While it is great for a wife to obey her husband if he is obeying Allah (very important), there is no point being obedient to a man who is clearly wrong and abusive. Allah gave a brain to all humans women included and we should use it. A woman who is feminine will have no problem obeying to a husband who has her respect and who is fulfilling his duties. I am not sure but I would think all Muslim women desire a strong man and not a wimp but they don't need to have a child-parent relationship with their husband.

Docile people whether adults or children are the first ones to be abused and bullied. Having a good balance of self-respect and respect for others is important. Islam stands for justice and justice means you don't wrong others and you reject those who wrong and hurt you.

I can not say enough why having docile wives and daughters isn't good for Muslims. You cannot protect your wife and children from the world around them. If your wife or daughter is modest she can still be confident and strong willed. You may be proud of having a shy daughter thinking she is pious and modest but if she is scared of expressing her opinion and speaking up, all her piety won't help when she faces an abuser and we all know that we can find abusers anywhere even in Muslim countries.

A 14 year old Muslim girl has been sexually abused in a school here and nothing was reported to the police (not sure her parents knew) but I have heard people saying she had a low self-esteem and that's why she was targeted. A stereotype or the reality? Maybe the rumors are true since some of us Muslims are promoting women submissiveness.



What do you think? Still prefer a docile wife and daughters?


define submissiveness

[PiElle2]

Um, can we not compare men of today to the Prophet :saw:?

Many men and a few brothers I personally know spend much time with their friends and hours on the Net. Some actually spend more time online than with their wives and children. Charming, I know.

Whilst I'm not against brothers doing their own thing, you can hardly compare brothers of today, to the Prophet :saw:

One thing I do know is our Nabi :saw: didn't waste his time around his 'friends' [I prefer to call them companions RAA] or farting online as we all tend to do nowadays.


ditto that, sis. the quality of humans are not as what it used to be... we all need to step up, otherwise we'll lose out in the favour of Allah... :(

there's no time to lose like today, small bit of change everyday means a lot... i'm outta here... :outta:

[carol_au]

define submissiveness

It's a very good question and worth answering.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Oh why the pointless and false conjecture.
Why cant these brothers accept that the only reason why the majority of these brothers 'go back home' to get married is because they are not marriage material for the sisters.

The only reason why 'back home' sisters marry these unfortunate brothers is because they see such marriages as a means of escaping their poverty-stricken lifestyle.

Not to mention that 'back home' they are free to marry little girls.

[Medievalist]

Morality Police:

can the lesbians all gather in one corner so we can flog them.:asta: :asta:

[Kal-El]

Um, can we not compare men of today to the Prophet :saw:?

Many men and a few brothers I personally know spend much time with their friends and hours on the Net. Some actually spend more time online than with their wives and children. Charming, I know.

Whilst I'm not against brothers doing their own thing, you can hardly compare brothers of today, to the Prophet :saw:

One thing I do know is our Nabi :saw: didn't waste his time around his 'friends' [I prefer to call them companions RAA] or farting online as we all tend to do nowadays.

The force is strong in this one.

[in_exile]

Um, can we not compare men of today to the Prophet :saw:?

Many men and a few brothers I personally know spend much time with their friends and hours on the Net. Some actually spend more time online than with their wives and children. Charming, I know.

Whilst I'm not against brothers doing their own thing, you can hardly compare brothers of today, to the Prophet :saw:

One thing I do know is our Nabi :saw: didn't waste his time around his 'friends' [I prefer to call them companions RAA] or farting online as we all tend to do nowadays.


one thing is for certain the women of the prophet *saw* or the companions *ra* did not speak like you do *rolleyes*

if you dont want to draw comparisons to the the salaf as saliheen then dont expect to be treated like they treated their wives *ra*...

its a shame you know so many brothers and men... maybe you just know the wrong type, or maybe you just shouldnt know them in the first place

[Lovetolaugh]

I don't want a completely docile wife, because someone has to be tehre to make sure I don't mess up from time to time and put it in crucial input towards important decisions...

but I don't want a damn devil for a wife either


Lol @ to make sure I don't mess up from time to time. Even if you don't mess up, you can't do everything. I have a friend who told me that her dad let her mom do so much stuff he should be doing (the mom doesnt really like that as it makes more work for her) Sometimes it is not that the women want to take charge but how the couple share work load and decision making.

Wish you the best wife in the world. InshaAllah.

[Lovetolaugh]

there has to be a balance.

same goes to say for mr. hubby too.



Sounds good. May Mr. hubby and you have a beautiful marriage.

[Lovetolaugh]

Submissiveness To Allah and the commands of Rasul :saw: is necessary for any Muslim be he man or a women,

arrogance and pride and ignorrance etc are rejected by Islam.

Low self esteem? what my Muslim sisters?

some people man or woman may have self esteem, but Alhumdulillah, a Muslim women has no reason to have low self esteem, she is well protected by Islam.

sex abuse is in abundance in Dar-Ul-Kufr unfortunately ...
they glorify sex so much in so many ways its little wonder why it happens so often in western nations ...

a Non-Muslim woman oft has little if any self esteem or self-respect, especially when they expose their private parts and walk half naked attempting to attract the men ...

Most despicable are such people ...

they have arrogance, ignorrance but no self respect ...

regards.



Submission to Allah is not discussed here as that's the prerequisite for being Muslim.

All Muslim women protected by Islam from low of self-esteem? Ameen!


The post wasn't about non-Muslims. We should lose the habit of defining Muslims in comparison to non-Muslims.

[Lovetolaugh]

Obviously a woman's relationship won't be the same with everyone. She would have to respect and obey her husband as long as he abides by Shariah.She doesn't have to obey everyone, nor should be submissive with everyone she comes across, that would be silly.


So she must reverse her coat. Submissive at home and assertive outside. Needs some flexibility but maybe maybe :)

[Lovetolaugh]

And submissivness is not the same as humility, being docile is not the same as being shy, and being passive isn't the same as lazyness.


Agree!

[Lovetolaugh]

Khalisah: So its ok for parents to make a decision for teh child, its ok for a teacher to make a decision for a pupil, but its not ok for a husband to make a decision for the wife?


its ok for a parent to make a decision for their child (and child doesnt have to be a non-pubescent, child can be an adult aswell) yet its not ok for a man to be like that with his wife? hmmmmm

bent logic people.



Putting your wife on the same level than your child??? :shock: no comment.

[Lovetolaugh]

lol yeah I know. How many parents out there are making decisions for their children once they leave the house? Also, there are some decisions that parents make that the adult child has the right to disagree with, like who to marry and how to raise their own children.


Actually, there are lots of Muslims who never question what their parents do even if it is unislamic. I wonder how many born Muslims would convert if they weren't born Muslim. How many would be strong enough to confront their own way of life and culture?

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Actually, there are lots of Muslims who never question what their parents do even if it is unislamic. I wonder how many born Muslims would convert if they weren't born Muslim. How many would be strong enough to confront their own way of life and culture?

True. Sadly most born Muslims these days put their horrid culture before Islam. It's why we see honor killings and men forcing women to hide under tons of clothing, when it should be a personal choice. It's why we see South Asian Muslims STILL following the caste system when choosing spouses. It's why we see men treating grown women, their wives, like children.

[in_exile]

True. Sadly most born Muslims these days put their horrid culture before Islam. It's why we see honor killings and men forcing women to hide under tons of clothing, when it should be a personal choice. It's why we see South Asian Muslims STILL following the caste system when choosing spouses. It's why we see men treating grown women, their wives, l