Do you find smart/sucessful women intimidating?

[Abu Mus'ab]

Erm, i wasn't the studying type of student lol .. :coolbro:

I got kicked out of school :smack: .. :o .. :outta: I used to think it was well cool back then lol .. Used to brag about being kicked out :rotfl: ..

Those were the days ... :coolbro:

Edit: And its not like my school was any good either, it almost got closed to because of it was so crap.
So you used to play hooky :0: not a wonder they kicked you out :buttkick:

[Abu Mus'ab]

It was 2 plus 2 actually :smack:

and I've got nothing to hide. ne1 who comes onto view my comments can see them. Empty threats. **roll eyes**
well you're firing blanks yourself *Roll Eyes*

[Medievalist]

well you're firing blanks yourself *Roll Eyes*

er . . . do u knw what firing blanks means? :rubeyes:

[Abu Mus'ab]

er . . . do u knw what firing blanks means? :rubeyes:
making empty threats of course, don't tell me you lot got another meaning for it? :0:

[Medievalist]

making empty threats of course, don't tell me you lot got another meaning for it? :0:

it means something else where we come from. :buttkick:

[Al-Farooq]

making empty threats of course, don't tell me you lot got another meaning for it? :0:

Being unable to have children.

[miss-islamic]

I'm pretty sure you already know what is emant by "opinionated" "modernistic" and "westernised" so i'm not going to bother explaining them.

If you can bring me the proof for that statement you just made then i wont get "prissed" (whatever that means), but if not, then....... well either way you'll have some explaining to do *Roll Eyes*

Hah, it’s a cross between between prissy and p*ssed. It’s how you seem to reply to things. :torture: Well, I read it long ago…I was hoping you’d correct me on it’s exact detail? You’ve never heard anything along those lines(i.e. medinan men being more lenient-medinan women being more bold-and then the prophet saying that’s good)? I don’t make up stuff. *Roll Eyes* :rolleyes: And no I don’t know what you or medievalist meant by opinionated being a bad thing. Funny thing, some of the synonyms for opinionated are; “prejudiced”, “narrow-mindednes”, “intolerant”? :eek:

[`asiya]

is this what u were thinking of ukhti

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said to the Prophet :saw:

“We Quraysh used to control our women, but when we came to the Ansaar we found that they were a people who were controlled by their women. So our women started to adopt the ways of the Ansaari women.

I got angry with my wife and she argued with me and I did not like her arguing with me.

She said, ‘Why do you object to me arguing with you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet :saw: argue with him….’

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4895; Muslim, 1479.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in discussing the lessons to be learned from this hadeeth

" This shows that being harsh with women is something unaceptable, because the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him adopted the way of the Ansaar with women forsaking the way of his people."

[Supernova Nebula]

is this what u were thinking of ukhti

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said to the Prophet :saw:

“We Quraysh used to control our women, but when we came to the Ansaar we found that they were a people who were controlled by their women. So our women started to adopt the ways of the Ansaari women.

I got angry with my wife and she argued with me and I did not like her arguing with me.

She said, ‘Why do you object to me arguing with you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet :saw: argue with him….’

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4895; Muslim, 1479.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in discussing the lessons to be learned from this hadeeth

" This shows that being harsh with women is something unaceptable, because the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him adopted the way of the Ansaar with women forsaking the way of his people."


awwwww:inlove:, jazakillah asiya for sharing.

[miss-islamic]

She's confused an incident regarding Nabi :saw: and Sayyidina Umar radhiyallahu anh.

She's talking about when Nabi :saw: stayed away from the Noble Mothers for a time and when Sayyidina Umar radhiyallahu anh was granted permission finally to enter in Their company; Sayyidina Umar stated along the lines that "we the Quraysh were a people who ruled over their women, then we came to a people who were ruled by their women (people of Madinah), our women have learnt from their women"

And this is what amused the Nabi :saw:

As for what she has inferred or made up from this - thats her intellect and understanding.



Yeh, that’s it. It shows as do similar hadeeths( there’s another where he criticize his wives for being bad to prophet and the prophet (saw) says, “let them be”) that Umar ® was strict with women (as he was with a lot of thing in general) but prophet (saw) wasn’t. He was more lenient with his wives and women in general, more Muslim should take that approach….

btw - miss islamic if you are going to reply to me, just like to inform you that you're on ma ignore list so wont be reading the comments.

Oh God…no…you were my only lifeline…I’m going emo, its official…:crying: hah, loser, its been aaaages since we’ve discussed anything. You’re a lost case, but I still make dua for your womenfolk tho. :D I know you’re reading this. :D

[miss-islamic]

is this what u were thinking of ukhti

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said to the Prophet :saw:

“We Quraysh used to control our women, but when we came to the Ansaar we found that they were a people who were controlled by their women. So our women started to adopt the ways of the Ansaari women.

I got angry with my wife and she argued with me and I did not like her arguing with me.

She said, ‘Why do you object to me arguing with you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet :saw: argue with him….’

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4895; Muslim, 1479.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in discussing the lessons to be learned from this hadeeth

" This shows that being harsh with women is something unaceptable, because the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him adopted the way of the Ansaar with women forsaking the way of his people."

yeh, see, this is why I love you? :D JazakaAllahu khairun. :D

[Miss-Neurofen]

Right brothers and sisters, i dont mean to be rude, but i asked a simple question and for some reason you have all gone completely off topic... :S

[Lovetolaugh]

Salaam

I am very successful in my job and financially secure. That does not mean I am career minded or materialistic.

I would be happy to be the submissive wife actually and stay at home and cook dinner and run the house. I am single at present but inshallah when I do marry, my role will be to stay at home and run the affairs of the house and look after the children. Surprise you hey!!! Us women do exist.

However, I would like to make joint decisions with my husband on most affairs such as money and house related issues. Its not that I dont trust him or I am being domineering; its because I need to know that whatever decisions he is making that may affect me and my children are the right decisions. I would feel better that he had shared his thoughts with me so that I can also give my feedback before he makes those decisions. Behind every successul man is a woman!

I do need to know how to run my husbands affairs should one day my husband pass away. The true reality is that most people's families are unable to look after widows and their children full time because they have their own families to look after.

When I meant a woman being able to speak to other people outside of the home, I actually meant when you go to the bank; when you go shoppingl when you apply for benefits; when you go to the docs or dentist. I am talking about communication where necessary - I am not talking about social activities!




Wa alaiku wassalam


This is an interesting discussion and I didn't feel a need to participate because everything has been already said and there are so many replies as usual on Ummah. But I don't know if many of your read this reply.

I don't like the word submissive myself for the same reason Kal-El explained as it has negative connotations. But I agree with the rest of this sister wrote.

All the men who think their wife doens't need to know about most decisions and family affairs and financial situation should think twice. I have a good friend who became widow suddenly and she never had to worry about finances as her husband had good businesses and they lived well. He had a heart attack at the age of 34-35 (young but it happens) and she had no clue what was going on. He had many debts that needed to be paid and his money barely covered them. She had to move and from nice big villa to her father's home with all her brothers and sis with no money to buy things for her children (1 year and 1 she was expecting).


Second, if you men want a docile woman who has no opinion and think that's respect for you well you need to wake up. Is that the model you want for your daughters? A woman who has a bad self-esteem will raise children with low self-esteem and believe it takes years to raise low self-esteem when it comes from home. If your wife never questions you, she will also never question the teacher of your children, she will not know how to stand up for her rights and the rights of your children. If she doesn't speak good English (or any official language in your country), she will not know how to answer to the phone and how to defend negotiate with people she needs to negotiate with.

Maybe in the old simple life back home, it was still possible to have all the important decisions taken by the husband but in today's world, you will not be able simply because you will not be there. If you want to be the breadwinner (with a busy job), you will not be the first one the principal of the school will call in the case your child pushed and hurt another child.


An assertive woman with a good self-esteem shouldn't be a threat for her husband. She is his partner in life and they complete each other-they are complementary and none should feel threatened by the other spouse.

Educated doesn't mean Westernized or full of herself. Education is good, arrogance isn't. If we Muslims are threatened by each others and the husband by the wife and the wife by the husband, we are sabotaging our own couple, family and prosperity. To prevent that, we need trust and love and I hope all the men who are scared by educated women will one day be so in love they will not remember to keep their guards and forget to build their fortress where all the decisions must be taken, where all the secrets must be kept. Just because there are some women who are educated and arrogant, you shouldn't condemn all women and blame education or intelligence. When you have a virus on your computer, do you blame technology and throw away your ipod and computer?


Also, we can oppose intelligence vs education but isn't it better to have both? Also, if the wife is smart why wouldn't the man try to be smarter instead of looking for one who wont be too smart/educated/cultured for him?

[Miss-Neurofen]

Good post sister :)

[Lovetolaugh]

:)

[vermeersch]

All the men who think their wife doens't need to know about most decisions and family affairs and financial situation should think twice. ?hey, that's a very good post.

Sometimes I think that many people really are still living in past ages.
In past ages, women were at a distinct disadvantage on the labour market, since most employment implied heavy physical efforts.

But, since now in developed economies intellectual work has become more important than manual work, women can of course participate in economic activities on the same basis and with the same productivity as men.

The main obstacle (as we all know) is that reconciling a career with family is very tricky, and can be even impossible, at least for a time period.

In my view, there is the need for flexibility: part-time jobs are a solution, but they tend to be in the less qualified area, and more often than not, will cut you off from real career development...

In any case, it's clear that financial independence brings a new assertiveness to women, and some men might be ill at ease with this development: yes, times change, but usually there is a time lag before attitudes also change.

In any case, I find that any reasonable woman should discuss these issues thoroughly with her prospective husband before marriage.

[Danniella]

Wa alaiku wassalam


This is an interesting discussion and I didn't feel a need to participate because everything has been already said and there are so many replies as usual on Ummah. But I don't know if many of your read this reply.

I don't like the word submissive myself for the same reason Kal-El explained as it has negative connotations. But I agree with the rest of this sister wrote.

All the men who think their wife doens't need to know about most decisions and family affairs and financial situation should think twice. I have a good friend who became widow suddenly and she never had to worry about finances as her husband had good businesses and they lived well. He had a heart attack at the age of 34-35 (young but it happens) and she had no clue what was going on. He had many debts that needed to be paid and his money barely covered them. She had to move and from nice big villa to her father's home with all her brothers and sis with no money to buy things for her children (1 year and 1 she was expecting).


Second, if you men want a docile woman who has no opinion and think that's respect for you well you need to wake up. Is that the model you want for your daughters? A woman who has a bad self-esteem will raise children with low self-esteem and believe it takes years to raise low self-esteem when it comes from home. If your wife never questions you, she will also never question the teacher of your children, she will not know how to stand up for her rights and the rights of your children. If she doesn't speak good English (or any official language in your country), she will not know how to answer to the phone and how to defend negotiate with people she needs to negotiate with.

Maybe in the old simple life back home, it was still possible to have all the important decisions taken by the husband but in today's world, you will not be able simply because you will not be there. If you want to be the breadwinner (with a busy job), you will not be the first one the principal of the school will call in the case your child pushed and hurt another child.


An assertive woman with a good self-esteem shouldn't be a threat for her husband. She is his partner in life and they complete each other-they are complementary and none should feel threatened by the other spouse.

Educated doesn't mean Westernized or full of herself. Education is good, arrogance isn't. If we Muslims are threatened by each others and the husband by the wife and the wife by the husband, we are sabotaging our own couple, family and prosperity. To prevent that, we need trust and love and I hope all the men who are scared by educated women will one day be so in love they will not remember to keep their guards and forget to build their fortress where all the decisions must be taken, where all the secrets must be kept. Just because there are some women who are educated and arrogant, you shouldn't condemn all women and blame education or intelligence. When you have a virus on your computer, do you blame technology and throw away your ipod and computer?


Also, we can oppose intelligence vs education but isn't it better to have both? Also, if the wife is smart why wouldn't the man try to be smarter instead of looking for one who wont be too smart/educated/cultured for him?

The best post i read on this thread.

:up:

[Ebony]

:1popcorn:

[Abu Mus'ab]

Being unable to have children.
You people have butchered the english language :nono:

[Abu Mus'ab]

Hah, it’s a cross between between prissy and p*ssed. It’s how you seem to reply to things. :torture: Well, I read it long ago…I was hoping you’d correct me on it’s exact detail? You’ve never heard anything along those lines(i.e. medinan men being more lenient-medinan women being more bold-and then the prophet saying that’s good)? I don’t make up stuff. *Roll Eyes* :rolleyes: And no I don’t know what you or medievalist meant by opinionated being a bad thing. Funny thing, some of the synonyms for opinionated are; “prejudiced”, “narrow-mindednes”, “intolerant”? :eek:
I assume Asiya posted the right hadith? so can you show where in that hadith does it says it's a good quality and people should learn from it?

Perhaps you were confusing 'synonym' with 'antonym'? Or are you trying to say that being a prejudiced intolerant narrow minded bigot is something good? :confused:

[carol_au]

hey, that's a very good post.

Sometimes I think that many people really are still living in past ages.
In past ages, women were at a distinct disadvantage on the labour market, since most employment implied heavy physical efforts.

But, since now in developed economies intellectual work has become more important than manual work, women can of course participate in economic activities on the same basis and with the same productivity as men.

The main obstacle (as we all know) is that reconciling a career with family is very tricky, and can be even impossible, at least for a time period.

In my view, there is the need for flexibility: part-time jobs are a solution, but they tend to be in the less qualified area, and more often than not, will cut you off from real career development...

In any case, it's clear that financial independence brings a new assertiveness to women, and some men might be ill at ease with this development: yes, times change, but usually there is a time lag before attitudes also change.

In any case, I find that any reasonable woman should discuss these issues thoroughly with her prospective husband before marriage.

Yep indeed.. in Islam it' the reason for the questions that should be asked before you marry.. and that the girls father or other guardian should also be helping her work out.. in the end of the woman and man don't agree on the basic issues that are important to them as individuals in what they want it a spouse, then they should never marry in the first place.

[Joha]

Being unable to have children.

:rubeyes: never ever heard that phrase, and I've heard a fair few!

Always thought this was French military procedure upon sight of a hun, followed immediately by a white flag and unconditional surrender.

[miss-islamic]

I assume Asiya posted the right hadith? so can you show where in that hadith does it says it's a good quality and people should learn from it?

Perhaps you were confusing 'synonym' with 'antonym'? Or are you trying to say that being a prejudiced intolerant narrow minded bigot is something good? :confused:

I said it was something along those lines and wanted clarification on the exact details. It does say it’s a good thing as the sr. asiya post shows as other commentary do. As for the word opinionated, yep those are the synonyms. The antonym for it is actually “open-minded.” :rubeyes: Loool, it’s very weiiird. Anywayyyyss, medievalist and company got OWWWWWNNNNEEEEEDDDD like no otha.:torture: And somebody should’ve posted the hadeeth way back when he first made the comment. :hidban: And, yes, it’s morning here again but I’m in one of my rare happy moods. Bye-bye.

[in_exile]

Wa alaiku wassalam


This is an interesting discussion and I didn't feel a need to participate because everything has been already said and there are so many replies as usual on Ummah. But I don't know if many of your read this reply.

I don't like the word submissive myself for the same reason Kal-El explained as it has negative connotations. But I agree with the rest of this sister wrote.

All the men who think their wife doens't need to know about most decisions and family affairs and financial situation should think twice. I have a good friend who became widow suddenly and she never had to worry about finances as her husband had good businesses and they lived well. He had a heart attack at the age of 34-35 (young but it happens) and she had no clue what was going on. He had many debts that needed to be paid and his money barely covered them. She had to move and from nice big villa to her father's home with all her brothers and sis with no money to buy things for her children (1 year and 1 she was expecting).


Second, if you men want a docile woman who has no opinion and think that's respect for you well you need to wake up. Is that the model you want for your daughters? A woman who has a bad self-esteem will raise children with low self-esteem and believe it takes years to raise low self-esteem when it comes from home. If your wife never questions you, she will also never question the teacher of your children, she will not know how to stand up for her rights and the rights of your children. If she doesn't speak good English (or any official language in your country), she will not know how to answer to the phone and how to defend negotiate with people she needs to negotiate with.

Maybe in the old simple life back home, it was still possible to have all the important decisions taken by the husband but in today's world, you will not be able simply because you will not be there. If you want to be the breadwinner (with a busy job), you will not be the first one the principal of the school will call in the case your child pushed and hurt another child.


An assertive woman with a good self-esteem shouldn't be a threat for her husband. She is his partner in life and they complete each other-they are complementary and none should feel threatened by the other spouse.

Educated doesn't mean Westernized or full of herself. Education is good, arrogance isn't. If we Muslims are threatened by each others and the husband by the wife and the wife by the husband, we are sabotaging our own couple, family and prosperity. To prevent that, we need trust and love and I hope all the men who are scared by educated women will one day be so in love they will not remember to keep their guards and forget to build their fortress where all the decisions must be taken, where all the secrets must be kept. Just because there are some women who are educated and arrogant, you shouldn't condemn all women and blame education or intelligence. When you have a virus on your computer, do you blame technology and throw away your ipod and computer?


Also, we can oppose intelligence vs education but isn't it better to have both? Also, if the wife is smart why wouldn't the man try to be smarter instead of looking for one who wont be too smart/educated/cultured for him?

again its ignorance to assume the obedient women dont have opinions or are docile.... the difference between the two is simple....

example one

husband: i'm buying so and so car
wife: but what about so and so etc etc
husband: you have a point but i prefer mine so i will stick with that
wife: ok your choice

example two

husband: i'm buying so and so car
wife: but what about so and so etc etc
husband: you have a point but i prefer mine so i will stick with that
wife: no no i'm telling you you're wrong.. i'm right
husband: ok i heard what you had to say but i made my decision
wife: no you can't, i don't want it, you don't care about me or what I have to say, you hate me, why don't you just kill me blah blah blah
husband: slap slap


you see the two examples... both have opinions but example two clearly doesnt know how to take a rejection..... why because she believes she has equal say in the decision....

oh thousands of men live very comfortably with marrying back home.... its small sacrifice to have to answer the principals phone when your son has beat some next man down for a good reason, compared to having to come home get no food on the table, eat fish and chips cus your wife too lazy to make you roti... have to put up with nag nag nag after a hard days work...oh and thats just for wannabe sisters... again thousands of practicing sisters in the uk who dont act like that...

anyway the best advice for a man... keep your personal life with your wife... keep your business with your business... you dont discuss business with someone who has no knowledge of it...

and as for harshness and softness..... be soft with your wife 99 percent of the time.... but 1 percent of the time make sure that you can be harsh.... that is closer to the sunnah than letting your wife roll over you....

[Abu Mus'ab]

I said it was something along those lines and wanted clarification on the exact details. It does say it’s a good thing as the sr. asiya post shows as other commentary do. As for the word opinionated, yep those are the synonyms. The antonym for it is actually “open-minded.” :rubeyes: Loool, it’s very weiiird. Anywayyyyss, medievalist and company got OWWWWWNNNNEEEEEDDDD like no otha.:torture: And somebody should’ve posted the hadeeth way back when he first made the comment. :hidban: And, yes, it’s morning here again but I’m in one of my rare happy moods. Bye-bye.
Maybe i need to get stronger glasses, but i sure don't see anything in that hadith that says it's a good thing, would you mind quoting the relevant part?

It's not wierd, it's just that you're a blind follower whose english level is very low :nono:

[miss-islamic]

The synonyms/antonym are from Microsoft word, they gots it all wrong obviously. Here you go…The prophet (saw) not only thought it was a good quality but adopted their way (as we should now if we are flowing the sunnah),
Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in discussing the lessons to be learned from this hadeeth

" This shows that being harsh with women is something unaceptable, because the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him adopted the way of the Ansaar with women forsaking the way of his people."

Lets not drag this please. :smack: You guys got O.W.N.E.D. End of. :D

[Abu Mus'ab]

The synonyms/antonym are from Microsoft word, they gots it all wrong obviously. Here you go…The prophet (saw) not only thought it was a good quality but adopted their way (as we should now if we are flowing the sunnah),


Lets not drag this please. :smack: You guys got O.W.N.E.D. End of. :D
Then use wordweb, use pardon, use wikipedia, use whatever you want, the result will be the same (if not worse)

You are totally misinterpreting imam ibn hajar rahimahullah, imam ibn hajar rahimahullah is saying that you shouldn't be harsh with your women, that's it, not what you are trying to imply, your 'argument' is as weak as me quoting the hadith saying women are deficient in aql and then just dismissing everything you have to say.

[miss-islamic]

No, he also says that he adopted their way i.e. not being strict with their wives/women. The specific case is in regards to not getting p*ssy when your wife/women argue with you.From it we know that the Prophet (saw) wives argued with him (as a similar hadeeth also shows where he says, “let them be”, when his wives are criticized by umar ® for it). It wasn’t a dictatorship household like people here support and many more in real life actually run (especially in the past). :rolleyes: My “argument” was never that women should rule their men or that men don’t have the last say in decisions. Can’t be two captains in the boat and all that. :D

[Abu Mus'ab]

No, he also says that he adopted their way i.e. not being strict with their wives/women. The specific case is in regards to not getting p*ssy when your wife/women argue with you.From it we know that the Prophet (saw) wives argued with him (as a similar hadeeth also shows where he says, “let them be”, when his wives are criticized by umar ® for it). It wasn’t a dictatorship household like people here support and many more in real life actually run (especially in the past). :rolleyes: My “argument” was never that women should rule their men or that men don’t have the last say in decisions. Can’t be two captains in the boat and all that. :D
So basically you had no argument but just wanted to argue for the sake of it? :0:

And fyi your signature is against forum rules, you should change it before a mod does.

[Muhyidin]

Knowing how much you just love and adore to have my opinion (lol) ...

Short answer: NO. - why would I?

[miss-islamic]

So basically you had no argument but just wanted to argue for the sake of it? :0:

And fyi your signature is against forum rules, you should change it before a mod does.

My "argument" (more like a comment based on a hadeeth that I wanted clarification on exact details) was, "…(that) it (the prophet (saw) sunnah) wasn’t a dictatorship household like people here support and many more in real life actually run…." :torture:

[Abu Mus'ab]

My "argument" (more like a comment based on a hadeeth that I wanted clarification on exact details) was, "…(that) it (the prophet (saw) sunnah) wasn’t a dictatorship household like people here support and many more in real life actually run…." :torture:
right right right, so can you give some examples of what this 'dictatorship' is?

[miss-islamic]

Ah shoot, I lost my post…basically like how it happens in the political arena against citizens? Ruling unjustly and cruelly, being demanding and aggressive. The ruled always silent but in a state of fear and worry cuz God know what will set him off today( like hey maybe they having a view other that the one he has and voicing and discussing it — something he doesn’t care for cuz he’s always right and women and children are dumb — or something as small as not all the dishware on the dinner table matching :rolleyes:). He can’t show love( nor wants it) or emotion cuz he’s a “man”, he only need respect and obedience in the form of fear. Just a general tension “relationship”, if it can be called that. That’s probably where they learn it from i.e. repeat how they are ruled by their govt. in their households. :rolleyes: A lot of our parent generation and beyond were generally brought up in such household. Still exists too. It has it’s own benefits sometime as does everything to an extent but it just ain’t the right way.

[Abu Mus'ab]

Ah shoot, I lost my post…basically like how it happens in the political arena against citizens? Ruling unjustly and cruelly, being demanding and aggressive. The ruled always silent but in a state of fear and worry cuz God know what will set him off today( like hey maybe they having a view other that the one he has and voicing and discussing it — something he doesn’t care for cuz he’s always right and women and children are dumb — or something as small as not all the dishware on the dinner table matching :rolleyes:). He can’t show love( nor wants it) or emotion cuz he’s a “man”, he only need respect and obedience in the form of fear. Just a general tension “relationship”, if it can be called that. That’s probably where they learn it from i.e. repeat how they are ruled by their govt. in their households. :rolleyes: A lot of our parent generation and beyond were generally brought up in such household. Still exists too. It has it’s own benefits sometime as does everything to an extent but it just ain’t the right way.
riiiiiiiiiight, and who here in this thread holds that views?

I know the brothers here better than you lot, and i'm yet to hear them voice such opinions, so remind me again who were these medievil dictators that you were trying to refute in this thread? :scratch:

[miss-islamic]

Well no ones going to say it that the way I’ve said it but yes, people here and in other threads have talked about how they want to run their household and it’s along those lines. And what was it medievalist said about women getting in line to get tight slaps? Was he rebuked for that by you or any of his other cronies here? Why do you act like oppression and violence against women doesn’t exist just because you haven't seen it in it's 3D action? :torture: Anyway, given the generation we are, no matter how bad a man gets nowadays, it will never match how it was in the past. Maybe because it was such an accepted thing and that winking at injustice was the twin of traditional societies. :torture:

[Reema]

No but I have a problem with men who believe its wrong for women to hold and exercise a certain level of power. In fact, anyone who has a problem with smart/succesful women also has a problem with Sayyeda Khadija and Ayesha and the other early women of Islam because they were indeed among the smartest and most intelligent of their day.

[Kal-El]

I'm surprised this thread has so many pages

[Fais]

Ah shoot, I lost my post…basically like how it happens in the political arena against citizens? Ruling unjustly and cruelly, being demanding and aggressive. The ruled always silent but in a state of fear and worry cuz God know what will set him off today( like hey maybe they having a view other that the one he has and voicing and discussing it — something he doesn’t care for cuz he’s always right and women and children are dumb — or something as small as not all the dishware on the dinner table matching :rolleyes:). He can’t show love( nor wants it) or emotion cuz he’s a “man”, he only need respect and obedience in the form of fear. Just a general tension “relationship”, if it can be called that. That’s probably where they learn it from i.e. repeat how they are ruled by their govt. in their households. :rolleyes: A lot of our parent generation and beyond were generally brought up in such household. Still exists too. It has it’s own benefits sometime as does everything to an extent but it just ain’t the right way.

:scratch:

What planet you from again? :0:

[Lovetolaugh]

again its ignorance to assume the obedient women dont have opinions or are docile.... the difference between the two is simple...

I see you can be very nice!

Docile and submissive means the same thing for me. Maybe in your dictionary, it is different.



oh thousands of men live very comfortably with marrying back home.... its small sacrifice to have to answer the principals phone when your son has beat some next man down for a good reason, compared to having to come home get no food on the table, eat fish and chips cus your wife too lazy to make you roti... have to put up with nag nag nag after a hard days work...oh and thats just for wannabe sisters... again thousands of practicing sisters in the uk who dont act like that...


I am sure food is important if the intention behind is to be a strong Muslim. But for me, children well-being is more important than food. Maybe it is a small sacrifice to answer to school phone calls but it's a sacrifice most Muslim men never make actively. I almost never see a Muslim dad coming to school and actually many are not in the country when you need them. In schools, the reputation for Muslim boys is that they have no respect for their mothers (which I know is false but is still there because the kid is between a dad who is too busy working on his business and a mother who doesn't know her rights as a parent, who speaks bad English or is over protective etc.

School life is very important for kids and it is too late to intervene in your kids' life when they are 17 and already grown. I used to have a Muslim student who used to be bullied daily and I have never seen the dad. I have Muslim students who are ashamed of using their real names because they are teased and I doubt their dad have explained to them the origin of their names and how they should be proud of. Ali becomes Bary, Shaikh becomes Shack etc.


Islam urge us to educate men and women. But if we are scared of women education, there is no surprise all Muslim countries are structurally non developped.



anyway the best advice for a man... keep your personal life with your wife... keep your business with your business... you dont discuss business with someone who has no knowledge of it...


Make sure you dont collaborate with the enemy!

[Lovetolaugh]

In any case, it's clear that financial independence brings a new assertiveness to women, and some men might be ill at ease with this development: yes, times change, but usually there is a time lag before attitudes also change.





Thanks.

Vermeersch, assertiveness doesn't come from money and economy. I was talking about confidence and being able to defend your own rights.

[Lovetolaugh]

The best post i read on this thread.

:up:


Thanks but I am sure there are very good posts written by other sis and bros. It is just too hard to read them all.


My post is actually not popular with the guys here :scratch:

[Abu Mus'ab]

Well no ones going to say it that the way I’ve said it but yes, people here and in other threads have talked about how they want to run their household and it’s along those lines. And what was it medievalist said about women getting in line to get tight slaps? Was he rebuked for that by you or any of his other cronies here? Why do you act like oppression and violence against women doesn’t exist just because you haven't seen it in it's 3D action? :torture: Anyway, given the generation we are, no matter how bad a man gets nowadays, it will never match how it was in the past. Maybe because it was such an accepted thing and that winking at injustice was the twin of traditional societies. :torture:
1: his post was long deleted by the time i visited this thread
2: i wasn't here when he said it
3: i don't remember saying i agree with slapping women (though femenists are a different story :|)
4: you seem to live on a planet all of your own, because none of us seem to hear of these strange things you talk about
5: i know medievalist and them much better than you, i know how their households are run not you, and i can tell you that your assumptions abotu them are all wrong
6: the problem is that you can't tell when they're joking and when they're serious

[Abu Mus'ab]

No but I have a problem with men who believe its wrong for women to hold and exercise a certain level of power. In fact, anyone who has a problem with smart/succesful women also has a problem with Sayyeda Khadija and Ayesha and the other early women of Islam because they were indeed among the smartest and most intelligent of their day.
You see there's the problem right there, has anyone here disapproved of women becoming aalimahs? No, instead they encourage it, and hadhrat aisha radhiallahu anha was like the mufti of her time, she didn't have a job and all that other stuff so there's no hujjah for the people who quote her and try to say that modern day terminology "smart/successful" women are following her, in fact i see it as an insult to hadhrat aisha radhiallahu anha when juhhaal women who don't know the basics of islam want to equate themselves with her (Note: i'm not referring to you here just in case you think i am).

But if you're using smart/successful in the shari sense then none of us have a problem, in exile already mentioned that pages ago.

[vermeersch]

Thanks.

Vermeersch, assertiveness doesn't come from money and economy. .As they say in companies, the important is the bottom line.

If you are not financially independent, you cannot really make independent choices in your life.

In my view, economic and financial independence are as important for a person, as they are for a family, a social group, a State.

[Ebony]

:1popcorn:

[miss-islamic]

Speak of alimas in this thread, I’ve personally heard of an alim give the advice to his student to never marry an alima who has more knowledge that you. I think somebody has had a bad experience, lol…1: his post was long deleted by the time i visited this thread
2: i wasn't here when he said it
3: i don't remember saying i agree with slapping women (though femenists are a different story :|)
4: you seem to live on a planet all of your own, because none of us seem to hear of these strange things you talk about
5: i know medievalist and them much better than you, i know how their households are run not you, and i can tell you that your assumptions abotu them are all wrong
6: the problem is that you can't tell when they're joking and when they're serious

Talk to old people for how it was in the past and visit women shelter homes (or in your case, a good imam that deal with family problems (not the one blame everything on women, preferably :rolleyes:) for the present. Calling for the slapping of women because you don’t agree with them or what they said was wrong is not a joke now matter how many laughing similes you put. Esp. when in real life it does happens by{“religious”) people like the person who made the joke. Yes, I do know that a lot of the people joke or bluff here, but that doesn’t change the fact that those type of dictatorship households exist. :)

[miss-islamic]

oooh look at my joke; …men and their d*cktator ways…:rolleyes:

[Abu Mus'ab]

Speak of alimas in this thread, I’ve personally heard of an alim give the advice to his student to never marry an alima who has more knowledge that you. I think somebody has had a bad experience, lol…

Talk to old people for how it was in the past and visit women shelter homes (or in your case, a good imam that deal with family problems (not the one blame everything on women, preferably :rolleyes:) for the present. Calling for the slapping of women because you don’t agree with them or what they said was wrong is not a joke now matter how many laughing similes you put. Esp. when in real life it does happens by{“religious”) people like the person who made the joke. Yes, I do know that a lot of the people joke or bluff here, but that doesn’t change the fact that those type of dictatorship households exist. :)
You see that's the difference between my statistics and yours, yours is based on hearsay and obscure happenings while mine is based on reality.

The author of the kitaab 'badaa us sanaa' his wife was a mufti, and he used to consult her on matters of the deen, and that is the view 99.99% of muslim men hold, but no you must quote that 00.01% who say no dont marry someone cleverer than you *Roll Eyes*

Been there done that got the t shirt, and *drum roll* guess what? more 'men' are subject to domestic violence than women, more 'men' get 'divorced' by their wives', more 'men' are subjected to the tyrannical rule of their dictator wives, the statistics are there, which are all real and not hearsay, but you don't find me chastising all women as if they all do it. (the way you do)

And speaking about slapping women, if a feminist gets slapped then they should take it like a man, since they so much want to be like men.

[miss-islamic]

What a load of bull. Men are more abused than women? That author’s way is the view of 99.99% of Muslim men in the world? Give me a flippin’ break …I wonder how many stories you’ve heard of men being sent to the grave or hospital by their womenfolk? :rolleyes: And, yes, I’m still working on bettering my writing/speaking style, esp. when it comes to subject matters like this, so excuse that for now. As for your last comment – I agree and have said the same. If women and men are the same as they say (something I feel I have remind you again, I DON’T believe in) then they shouldn’t make a big deal about women being slapped anymore than men being slapped. Funny thing, the latter is encouraged at times….:torture:

[Medievalist]

:asta:

I think women who talk to their husbands when he's not talking to them should have their tongues pulled out. How dare they talk to him without being talked to :torture:.

women **roll eyes**

[Medievalist]

:1popcorn:

[muslimma]

no they dont look like that when they get outta bed you know :rolleyes:

is material and merely an image, which any1 can imitate :up:

[GuCcI]

who do these women think they are :torture:

[Reema]

who do these women think they are :torture:

Look whose back..:p

[GuCcI]

Look whose back..:p

how are your wedding preps :inlove: - when is it again i forgot :o

[bint]

yeah gucci! Although I havent been spendin much time on here, i noticed ure absence! Where have you been hidin?

[GuCcI]

yeah gucci! Although I havent been spendin much time on here, i noticed ure absence! Where have you been hidin?

in search of enlightenment :smack:

not :p


ive been using this no school no work time to lay around the house and do absolutely nothing :up: actually, its more like relaxing before the wedding :coolsis:

[tayfah-mansurah]

im not surprised guys are nervous in this situation lol. I know one guy that had to divorce his wife because she insisted on placing her career before having children:torture:

I would be very interested in what guys have to say regarding this, but would also like to see what our sisters have to say too!!

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine regarding this (she is a medic student) and she was talking about how some of her un married friends are finding it difficult to find husbands, cos when they hear the girls going to be a doctor, they back off. And i sort of know where she is coming from, as i know some guys from my uni days too, who despite having gone to uni themselves etc (naturally you would expect them to have a much more open mind towards something like this), say that they would not marry someone who is more qualified or earns more than they do....

[Miss-Neurofen]

tayfah... do u ever try and reply with positive comments?

[tayfah-mansurah]

what can i say, its a mans world:coolbro:

tayfah... do u ever try and reply with positive comments?

[Miss-Neurofen]

yeah ill remind u of that when...

[tayfah-mansurah]

is that some kind of threat ? :rubeyes:

yeah ill remind u of that when...

[Miss-Neurofen]

yep! :)

[Muhyidin]

Now, now children :rolleyes: play nicely! :p

[Abu Mus'ab]

What a load of bull. Men are more abused than women? That author’s way is the view of 99.99% of Muslim men in the world? Give me a flippin’ break …I wonder how many stories you’ve heard of men being sent to the grave or hospital by their womenfolk? :rolleyes: And, yes, I’m still working on bettering my writing/speaking style, esp. when it comes to subject matters like this, so excuse that for now. As for your last comment – I agree and have said the same. If women and men are the same as they say (something I feel I have remind you again, I DON’T believe in) then they shouldn’t make a big deal about women being slapped anymore than men being slapped. Funny thing, the latter is encouraged at times….:torture:

I speak on behalf of men, not on behalf of metros or juhhaal or any of those type, as far as men goes they share that view that i mentioned.

In total honesty i know of more (real) stories of wives killing their husbands than husbands killing their wives, one woman poisoned her husband and ran away with the children, the other woman hit her husband in the head with an axe (obviously he died), another one broke a bottle on her husbands head and stabbed him to death with the broken bottle, another one killed her husband in his sleep, etc etc etc, however the amount of stories of men killing their wives that i know of i can count on my one hand.

Finally we agree on something :rubeyes:

[Joha]

In total honesty i know of more (real) stories of wives killing their husbands than husbands killing their wives, one woman poisoned her husband and ran away with the children, the other woman hit her husband in the head with an axe (obviously he died), another one broke a bottle on her husbands head and stabbed him to death with the broken bottle, another one killed her husband in his sleep, etc etc etc, however the amount of stories of men killing their wives that i know of i can count on my one hand.


You don't know how wrong you are in your 'facts'. And you're a poor example of a man if you're letting your personal observations and emotions get in the way of facts and statistics.

[Abu Mus'ab]

You don't know how wrong you are in your 'facts'. And you're a poor example of a man if you're letting your personal observations and emotions get in the way of facts and statistics.
Are you blind or just acting stupid? :rolleyes:

[Joha]

Are you blind or just acting stupid? :rolleyes:

Both blind and acting. Still, I'm glad to see you don't think I'm wrong :rolleyes:

[-Shamil-]

joha and abu musab - are you guys actually arguing over who commits murder more - the husband or the wife? bit of a depressing topic :smack:


try to look on the bright side - you respective spouses might decide not to kill you after marriage :up:

[GuCcI]

why is this thread still going :p

[Abu Mus'ab]

joha and abu musab - are you guys actually arguing over who commits murder more - the husband or the wife? bit of a depressing topic :smack:


try to look on the bright side - you respective spouses might decide not to kill you after marriage :up:
No such debate was going on, that thing just decided to put its mouth in a conversation and didn't know what it was talking about :rolleyes:

[Joha]

No such debate was going on, that thing just decided to put its mouth in a conversation and didn't know what it was talking about :rolleyes:

oi, this thing was pointing out the nonsense you were calling a 'conversation' :rolleyes:

[GuCcI]

brothers, you're both definitely way too cool to be bickering like this okay :coolsis:

[Kubs]

brothers, you're both definitely way too cool to be bickering like this okay :coolsis:

This is a joke, right? Sarcasm perhaps? :eek3:

[GuCcI]

This is a joke, right? Sarcasm perhaps? :eek3:

its just butter :p



still, anyone who's a brother -or sister- to gucci is way cool :fairy:

[Kubs]

its just butter :p



still, anyone who's a brother -or sister- to gucci is way cool :fairy:

Phew.....for a second there I thought you were being genuinely serious :rotfl:

Funny how brothers can't avoid posting in this thread :D It's almost like they are 'trying' to convince themselves...that...no....they aren't intimidated by intelligent women. You are failing miserably! You only make yourselves look stupid.

[GuCcI]

Phew.....for a second there I thought you were being genuinely serious :rotfl:

Funny how brothers can't avoid posting in this thread :D It's almost like they are 'trying' to convince themselves...that...no....they aren't intimidated by intelligent women. You are failing miserably! You only make yourselves look stupid.

no i was serious :p

lol... i dont think they have a real prolem with intelligent women, they just have a problem with one who's the power hungry feministy typeish you know :scratch:

[zammy]

I think it all depends on the woman. If she's always rubbing her high powered career in people's face, including her husband, then she's bound to make him feel insecure. But if she values family life and her husband and children more than her job and makes that clear by giving it more attention and priority, then I don't think there should be a problem.

[Kal-El]

Did anyone actually say they would be intimidated?

[Kubs]

no i was serious :p

lol... i dont think they have a real prolem with intelligent women, they just have a problem with one who's the power hungry feministy typeish you know :scratch:

Feminism is a western ideology....it's not part of Islam - so for a Muslim woman to claim she's a 'feminist'...she's going AGAINST the teachings of Islam.

You cannot be a Muslim woman and be a feminist at the same time - they are complete opposites!

Feminism is an excuse for those brothers who don't like women speaking their minds. They see a woman who disagrees with them and instantly think 'FEMINIST' :rolleyes:

[Kal-El]

Feminism is a western ideology....it's not part of Islam - so for a Muslim woman to claim she's a 'feminist'...she's going AGAINST the teachings of Islam.

You cannot be a Muslim woman and be a feminist at the same time - they are complete opposites!

Feminism is an excuse for those brothers who don't like women speaking their minds. They see a woman who disagrees with them and think 'FEMINIST' :rolleyes:

Actually some theoretical perspectives of the concept is similar to that of Islam's emphasis of women's rights

[Kubs]

Actually some theoretical perspectives of the concept is similar to that of which Islam emphasises

For example?

[GuCcI]

Feminism is a western ideology....it's not part of Islam - so for a Muslim woman to claim she's a 'feminist'...she's going AGAINST the teachings of Islam.

You cannot be a Muslim woman and be a feminist at the same time - they are complete opposites!

Feminism is an excuse for those brothers who don't like women speaking their minds. They see a woman who disagrees with them and instantly think 'FEMINIST' :rolleyes:

yep, but what can u do.... a muslim woman can claim she is espcially if shes growing up in the west... and she might not even claim, she may deny but her actions scream feminist :p

anyway theres nothing wrong with a woman to be smart, its what she uses her brains for - raising her kids to be good members of the muslim community or village politics :smack:

[GuCcI]

Did anyone actually say they would be intimidated?

u forgot to edit your font :p

i dont think any brother will seriously admit to being intimidated. if he does, then thats it for him in the brothers' section lol

[Abu Mus'ab]

oi, this thing was pointing out the nonsense you were calling a 'conversation' :rolleyes:
Well thing like i said you were either blind or stupid, because you just jumped in without reading my previous posts, and then come and accuse me of things when you don't know anything :rolleyes:

[Kal-El]

For example?

Firstly you have to understand the term didn't originally mean "equal rights" in every facet of society, like we see today, but more of a goal to some rights that were needed for women pre 18th century.

Actually, the earliest reform - call it feminist movement if you like - ever made was under Islam and this is historically accepted in the West. They were given greater rights, rights for which the West later adopted, in marriage, divorce (including the children) and inheritance.

Even the concept of a dowry, which was universal, was decided and negotiated between the gentlemen caller and the father of the girl - hence why it was common for fathers to look for the wealthiest of men for their daughters so the entire family could live in comfort. The dowry under Islamic reform instead was a personal gift between husband and wife although sadly that hasn't been appreciated in some cultures still where the parents are still looking for the biggest pay-offs.

I can't remember every similarities they shared but to sum it up in general terms, if you could forgive me, is that women were treated not as 2nd class but 3rd class by our ancestors and this slowly started a psychological evolution to recognise them as individuals. Islam was among the first to not just elevate rights but create rights for women that were previously non-existent.

[afsalim]

No I don't. Almost all the female members of my family are well educated and successful in their own respective careers. My grandmother is one of the first Bengali women to have a Postgraduate degree in this country. Both my mother and my aunt are retired professors. Both of my sisters are doctors and I'm married to a statistician who's working for a large multinational company. So, no...I am not intimidated my successful and smart women. I respect them. Basically, they had to work much harder to be where they are in a male dominated society.

[vermeersch]

[FONT=Arial] the earliest reform - call it feminist movement if you like - ever made was under Islam and this is historically accepted in the West. It would be interesting to hear more details about this... usually "Western" historians are not very laudatory when discussing the position of women in Islam, even in the early days.

However, my point is a different one: even if we assume that Islam, in the 7th century, did give women rights they didn't enjoy anywhere else, the situation now is very different.

In my view, women under Shariah are now being heavily discriminated against : in particular with regard to financial settlements in case of divorce, but also with regard to custody rights, parental authority, decision-making in the family.

Anyone care to comment ?

[in_exile]

It would be interesting to hear more details about this... usually "Western" historians are not very laudatory when discussing the position of women in Islam, even in the early days.

However, my point is a different one: even if we assume that Islam, in the 7th century, did give women rights they didn't enjoy anywhere else, the situation now is very different.

In my view, women under Shariah are now being heavily discriminated against : in particular with regard to financial settlements in case of divorce, but also with regard to custody rights, parental authority, decision-making in the family.

Anyone care to comment ?

what you judge to be fair we judge to be evil based on the will of allah *swt* it is as simple as that...

[Umar`]

It would be interesting to hear more details about this... usually "Western" historians are not very laudatory when discussing the position of women in Islam, even in the early days.

However, my point is a different one: even if we assume that Islam, in the 7th century, did give women rights they didn't enjoy anywhere else, the situation now is very different.

In my view, women under Shariah are now being heavily discriminated against : in particular with regard to financial settlements in case of divorce, but also with regard to custody rights, parental authority, decision-making in the family.

Anyone care to comment ?


more discriminated against than the men that are getting raped and electrodes attatched to them in saudi prisons?

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Not really. A man wants a wife who is obedient and humble. We have enough headache in the worklpace, who wants another headache at home??

So having a career renders a woman incapable of being obedient and humble? Man oh man.... :rolleyes:

[Medievalist]

who deleted my comment? it was perfect for the sexual deviants.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Im advising the Mods to keep on eye on this "Danniella". She seems to be speaking a lot of personal opinion with no real substance. Example includes the "weak hadeeth" comment the muhadiththa came out with. I smell a rat.

So do you. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

no its not a partnership *rolleyes*

Yes, it is.

[afsalim]

So having a career renders a woman incapable of being obedient and humble? Man oh man.... :rolleyes:

That's what being intimidated by successful women looks like. Not all men view women as fellow human beings, equal in all endeavors.

[Lefthook]

I think it all depends on the woman. If she's always rubbing her high powered career in people's face, including her husband, then she's bound to make him feel insecure. But if she values family life and her husband and children more than her job and makes that clear by giving it more attention and priority, then I don't think there should be a problem.

Likewise for men. If a man is rubbing his high powered career in pseudo-intellectuality in people's faces including his girlfriend/friend/wife then they won't feel too good either.

I won't marry anyone but an immensely intelligent and confident woman. That said, no immensely intelligent and confident woman would marry me so I might just have to lower my standareds.:rolleyes:

[KhalisahdaGreat]

That's what being intimidated by successful women looks like. Not all men view women as fellow human beings, equal in all endeavors.

I agree. I've seen way too many posts from this person that indicate that he obviously holds nothing but contempt for women. I see nothing of our Prophet SAWS in attitudes like this; he always made clear his genuine affection for women alhamdulillah

[thurber]

Do you find smart/sucessful women intimidating?

Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? :)

[Al-Farooq]

Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? :)

:)

Game, set and match to thurber. :up:

You can end the thread now. :D

[in_exile]

Yes, it is.

no it isn't *rolleyes*

[afsalim]

I agree. I've seen way too many posts from this person that indicate that he obviously holds nothing but contempt for women. I see nothing of our Prophet SAWS in attitudes like this; he always made clear his genuine affection for women alhamdulillah

Any man holding 'contempt' for women usually suffer from inferiority complex. "When women take over, families will crumble" is just a rhetoric caused by their phobia against women.

[Abu Mu'adh]

Any man holding 'contempt' for women usually suffer from inferiority complex. "When women take over, families will crumble" is just a rhetoric caused by their phobia against women.

Absolute nonsense, it's clear that the messenger (saw) said any nation/tribe whose leader is a woman will never prosper. So you think nabi (saw) had an inferiority complex or had a phobia against women?

There are clear gender roles defined by Islam, it's as simple as that. It's not about taking over, it's simply about knowing who is the leader of the family.

[Umm 'Umarah]

The whole western perception of equality, freedom and rights has clearly had an affect on some sisters here.

If you want to compare the brothers here to the Prophet :saw: then you should also compare yourselves to the Ummahatul Mu’mineen.

If you want your husband to value your opinion, then you should want him to value your opinion because you have a valuable opinion, and he respects your opinion because he respects you. Banging on about equality and rights in a defiant manner isn’t going to earn you respect for your opinion nor will it bring value to your opinion.

I personally would prefer if my husband values my opinion because he wants to and naturally feels obliged to. And not because I shouted down a loudspeaker to get my opinion across to him, and it becomes a formality for him to accept what I have said because this is what I have insisted he does.

Khalisah,

If you regard the Niqaab burqa Jilbaab a ton of clothing, then I dread to think what kind of clothing you are accustomed to wearing.

One fundamental error you have made in your understanding, I suggest you refresh your memory with why the verses of hijaab were revealed, adorning hijaab, ultimately, is it in the best interests of who? women or men?

Another fundamental error is that do you not believe in Qadr of Allah? So when you speak of the ‘little girls’ from back home who are ‘unfortunate’ enough to marry brothers from here. Do you not think that it was in their destiny to marry such a man? And do you not think Allah knows what’s best for his servants, and that everything happens by His will.

(in reference to what you have said on the other thread)

[miss-islamic]

Aw common, that’s just a typical twisted argument. Murder, rape etc. also happen by the “will of Allah” but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

[Umm 'Umarah]

Aw common, that’s just a typical twisted argument. Murder, rape etc. also happen by the “will of Allah” but that doesn’t mean it’s a good thing.

So basically, you're saying you have knowledge of who should marry who, what lies in their destiny ahead, and what you believe will be good for them, will be good for them? it all should happen by your will and the will of people who have the same opinion as you regarding Qadr.

Well, look everyone, Mystic Meg's online.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

The whole western perception of equality, freedom and rights has clearly had an affect on some sisters here.

If you want your husband to value your opinion, then you should want him to value your opinion because you have a valuable opinion, and he respects your opinion because he respects you. Banging on about equality and rights in a defiant manner isn’t going to earn you respect for your opinion nor will it bring value to your opinion.

I personally would prefer if my husband values my opinion because he wants to and naturally feels obliged to. And not because I shouted down a loudspeaker to get my opinion across to him, and it becomes a formality for him to accept what I have said because this is what I have insisted he does.


Well said sis.

[vermeersch]

The whole western perception of equality, freedom and rights has clearly had an effect on some sisters here.Yay !!!! we kuffar do have an important positive function after all... good to see it recognized...

More seriously, I think that no society is immutable. Our contemporary society, our economy, our means of production are not the same as in 7th century Arabia.

Of course that gender roles have to take account of this.

[Umm_Hanzalah]

Yay !!!! we kuffar do have an important positive function after all... good to see it recognized...

More seriously, I think that no society is immutable. Our contemporary society, our economy, our means of production are not the same as in 7th century Arabia.

Of course that gender roles have to take account of this.

No to mention the breakdown of the family and family values that such a culture contributes to.

[afsalim]

Absolute nonsense, it's clear that the messenger (saw) said any nation/tribe whose leader is a woman will never prosper. So you think nabi (saw) had an inferiority complex or had a phobia against women?

There are clear gender roles defined by Islam, it's as simple as that. It's not about taking over, it's simply about knowing who is the leader of the family.

Once again, statements are taken out of context and mutilated. Our Prophet (SaW) has also said in his last sermon, "...O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

The words Partners and Committed Helpers is not directed towards a human being beneath you, rather who is equal to you.

[afsalim]

Then again, why does everybody think the breakdown of families will occur if women had financial freedom?

[Guvna]

Once again, statements are taken out of context and mutilated. Our Prophet (SaW) has also said in his last sermon, "...O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers."

The words Partners and Committed Helpers is not directed towards a human being beneath you, rather who is equal to you.

there's nothing EQUAL about the status of man and woman... man is the leader of a woman.. y9uo can argue dictator.. but certainly not the equal status... im sorry.. but thats prettty well defined!

[KhalisahdaGreat]

there's nothing EQUAL about the status of man and woman... man is the leader of a woman.. y9uo can argue dictator.. but certainly not the equal status... im sorry.. but thats prettty well defined!

Sorry, but I (and the Holy Qur'an) beg to differ. MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL. You're referring to the status of HUSBANDS AND WIVES, not men and women as a whole. THAT'S pretty well defined.

[Guvna]

Sorry, but I (and the Holy Qur'an) beg to differ. MEN AND WOMEN ARE EQUAL. You're referring to the status of HUSBANDS AND WIVES, not men and women as a whole. THAT'S pretty well defined.

I stand corrected.. that is what i meant! husband and wife! :up:

[miss-islamic]

So basically, you're saying you have knowledge of who should marry who, what lies in their destiny ahead, and what you believe will be good for them, will be good for them? it all should happen by your will and the will of people who have the same opinion as you regarding Qadr.

Well, look everyone, Mystic Meg's online.

Mannnn, I wish I could cleverly insult like you. :D This is not what I said. Humans do horrendous thing to each other and Allah (swt) knew/knows this, but it doesn’t make those horrendous things (that becomes part of some people’s qadr) good things (marrying little girls, murder, rape etc.).Well said sis.

Yeh, forcing someone to do the right thing doesn’t feel good as one would think.

[vermeersch]

No to mention the breakdown of the family and family values that such a culture contributes to.These are just tired old clichés.

You should be much more specific, if you want to start a serious discussion.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Umm 'Umarah, I don't have an issue with the 'Western concept' of equality, freedom and rights. Sure they've had an affect on me; I grew up in the West and am a Westerner. I look up to women like Oprah Winfrey and Margaret Thatcher, and admire the things they've accomplished. That doesn't mean that I agree with ALL aspects of Western culture, but I respect and value some portions just as I expect Westerners to see the good in Islam and respect it.

Why do you assume that I 'bang on' about equality and rights? I don't need to have this conversation with my husband, and I'm certainly not defiant with him because he already does respect and value my opinion as his PARTNER. He doesn't hold these antiquated views on women, as some seem to here. Sister, do you honestly think I would 'shout down' my husband? A'uzubillah I respect my husband more than anyone else in the world. He's the love of my life. I have no problem with being humble and obedient to him.

Furthermore, I DO regard the burqa as tons of clothing, because that's what they are. I didn't make a commentary either way on whether I think they are necessary, but the FACT remains that it is a lot of clothing! I don't think that women should be forced by anyone to wear anything they don't want to wear; it's a personal choice between her and Allah Ta'Ala. Please don't assume that I'm against modest wear. (I wear hijab, long shirts, and loose pants most of the time. Sometimes I switch it up with maxi dresses and skirts. I don't like Arab abayas or jilbab, although I'm in love with the Sudanese style thobe, with the beautiful colors!)

The verses of hijab are in the best interests of women, of course sister. I don't dispute that. However, I wear hijab because I choose to, not because some oppressive government or men forced me to. I believe that it's PERSONAL, between me and Allah (SWT).

Yes, I do believe in Qadr of Allah sister? I never said anything about little girls being '‘unfortunate’ enough to do anything. I was responding to a brother who derided Muslimat who live in the West. He made the comment, "You wonder why we go 'back home' to marry. I responded with, "You go 'back home' because you're able to marry little girls." Allah knows best of course sister, but I just don't agree with grown men marrying children. It's halal of course and people do it. I just don't agree with it personally and I also don't agree with things like cousin marriage, but that's another topic altogether.

Again Allahu 3lem.

[Al-Farooq]

The whole western perception of equality, freedom and rights has clearly had an affect on some sisters here.

If you want to compare the brothers here to the Prophet :saw: then you should also compare yourselves to the Ummahatul Mu’mineen.

If you want your husband to value your opinion, then you should want him to value your opinion because you have a valuable opinion, and he respects your opinion because he respects you. Banging on about equality and rights in a defiant manner isn’t going to earn you respect for your opinion nor will it bring value to your opinion.

I personally would prefer if my husband values my opinion because he wants to and naturally feels obliged to. And not because I shouted down a loudspeaker to get my opinion across to him, and it becomes a formality for him to accept what I have said because this is what I have insisted he does.


Excellent post ukhti masha'Allah.

With thoughts like these, your husband would have to be insane not to value your opinion. :up:

[Kal-El]

Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? :)

You just shut everyone up in four words

[Umm_Hanzalah]

These are just tired old clichés.

You should be much more specific, if you want to start a serious discussion.

Think what you like.

[Pippin1376]

there's nothing EQUAL about the status of man and woman... man is the leader of a woman.. y9uo can argue dictator.. but certainly not the equal status... im sorry.. but thats prettty well defined!

I stand corrected.. that is what i meant! husband and wife! :up:

...you can never argue dictator. If my husband was a dictator why would I want to be married to him?

[miss-islamic]

Originally Posted by thurber Did the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? OWWWWNEDDD!?! :hidban:

[Umm 'Umarah]

Sister Khalisah, now... where shall I start….

It’s entirely up to you who you choose to look up to. The accomplishments of these women, leaves them with very little success in the aakhirah. We should take inspiration from those who are successful in the dunya and in the aakhirah.

I didn’t mean you specifically, was merely an example, how you handle your affairs with your husband is none of my business.... and how the brothers here handle their affairs is their business. I’m pretty sure Medievalist doesn’t treat women with contempt. I highly doubt he'd go around calling sisters lesbians and giving them slaps. lool.

Where did you get this idea oppressive governments and men are forcing hijaab upon women? A case of CNN syndrome perhaps.

You wear hijaab, I wear hijaab because we are commanded by our Lord to wear hijaab. We have a choice to carry out this commandment. Our choice is to obey Allah. If we fail to do this, we are sinning.

The type of hijaab you like to wear, how you interpret modesty is again entirely upto you, the Burqa/ Niqaab/Jilbaab are in accordance with the Qur'anic injunctions, not something plucked out of thin air and then applied as a cultural or fashion trend. If you research the ayaats on hijaab, you'll have a more clear understanding of why they are worn.

Islamic governments have the shar’eeh rulings to uphold, they have a duty to maintain their society. We as Muslims have particular position in the social system, you understand the sense of modesty, you will understand the importance of maintaining a society to keep people from indulging in obscenity. If a woman dresses inappropriately, firstly she is dishonouring herself, secondly, she is advocate indecency and obscenity in the society around her. The governing body, in an islaamic society should prevent this, and rightly so, in compliance with Shar'eeah.

Why chide the brothers here for unrelated issues for which individual Muslims across to globe choose to practice. I was referring to women back home in general, who individuals choose to marry is not my concern, if a man marries a women with her consent, if she’s younger, what does that matter to us? Women in the west marry men younger men, men in the west marry younger women. I’m sure you can think of a few celebrities who have accomplished a lot who have even done this. Marrying someone younger is better than marrying someone of the same gender – another accomplishment of the west.

[AbuMubarak]

is this what u were thinking of ukhti

‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said to the Prophet :saw:

“We Quraysh used to control our women, but when we came to the Ansaar we found that they were a people who were controlled by their women. So our women started to adopt the ways of the Ansaari women.

I got angry with my wife and she argued with me and I did not like her arguing with me.

She said, ‘Why do you object to me arguing with you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet :saw: argue with him….’

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4895; Muslim, 1479.

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in discussing the lessons to be learned from this hadeeth

" This shows that being harsh with women is something unaceptable, because the Prophet peace and blessings of Allah be upon him adopted the way of the Ansaar with women forsaking the way of his people."so many ways of looking at this

[AbuMubarak]

there is a similar hadith along the same lines, regarding hitting the women, and at the end, the Prophet said whosoever hits a woman has little faith, my best recollection

[KhalisahdaGreat]

You see there's the problem right there, has anyone here disapproved of women becoming aalimahs? No, instead they encourage it, and hadhrat aisha radhiallahu anha was like the mufti of her time, she didn't have a job and all that other stuff so there's no hujjah for the people who quote her and try to say that modern day terminology "smart/successful" women are following her, in fact i see it as an insult to hadhrat aisha radhiallahu anha when juhhaal women who don't know the basics of islam want to equate themselves with her (Note: i'm not referring to you here just in case you think i am).

But if you're using smart/successful in the shari sense then none of us have a problem, in exile already mentioned that pages ago.

Actually A'isha ra did have a job. She made and sold saddles, and the Prophet :saw: encouraged her. She was also a foremost authority on the Qur'an and Sunnah; men didn't consider it 'beneath them' to listen to her advice or rulings on a subject. Khadijah ra also was a successful businesswoman before she married Rasulillah :saw: and there's no indication that she quit after the marriage.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Sister Umm 'Umarah, I never said that I look up to anyone other than Allah Ta'ala and his prophets and messengers may peace be upon them all. I said that I admire these women for what they have accomplished. As for the akhirah, Allahu 3lem I'm not going to judge what success they may have because only Allah Ta'ala knows and He is Merciful and Just.

I agree with you about Bro. Medievalist to an extent; I think he says what he says for shock value. He has joked about women on this forum being lesbians, and giving them slaps. It bothers me that no one calls him on it. I don't find it amusing or appropriate behavior for a Muslim man.

My 'idea' of oppressive governments and men are forcing hijab upon women? It has nothing to do with CNN and everything to do with talking to people from Saudi Arabia, from Afghanistan, etc. It's the law in KSA sister, for women to wear the hijab and abaya. This isn't my opinion it's fact. I have a close friend, a sister whose family is from Afghanistan, and she said that men harassed her on the street when she went there because she wasn't wearing the burqa, even though she wore niqab and abaya. I personally know people who are forced to wear hijab by their families, and they take it off after they leave the home. Perhaps you and I wear hijab for the right reasons, sister, but there are millions of Muslim women the world over who don't have a choice in the matter. Even in so-called 'secular' countries, they are forced by societal pressure to wear hijab. I've heard stories of women in Alexandria, Egypt, who are harassed in the streets, even while wearing modest clothing, because they don't cover their hair. I think that we need to stop pretending as if Muslim societies are perfect and acknowledge that these things do happen, that women are being oppressed, and stop blaming 'Western propaganda'.

The type of hijab we wear is entirely up to us, true, but hijab is so much more than a piece of cloth covering the hair. The most important aspect of hijab (for man AND woman) is actions. The burqa, niqab, and jilbab have nothing to do with the Qur'an and are cultural. In fact, nowhere in the Qur'an does it command a woman to cover her hair; it referred specifically to the bosom. The ayat that references the head-covering doesn't tell women that they have to wear a head-covering. It was a commandment to women of the time, who happened to wear it as part of their culture. The commandment was for these women to cover their bosoms. Now, Sunnah, of course, takes it further. (When the word 'hijab' was mentioned in the Qur'an it was referring to a curtain.)

Islamic governments? What Islamic governments? No caliphate currently exists in the world today; there is no such thing as an 'Islamic government'. ALL so-called 'Islamic governments' fall far short of the ideals of the Prophet :saw: and shouldn't be regarded as Islamic governments. Furthermore, nowhere in Islamic law is it sanctioned to force people to wear certain clothing. This is just a misguided and false interpretation of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Sister, I'm not referring to women who dress inappropriately, but in any case, so what? It's her PERSONAL CHOICE, between her and Allah Ta'ala, not her and some government officials. She is dishonoring herself but that doesn't mean that she is advocating indecency and obscenity in the society around her. I think it's ridiculous to assert that a woman is 'advocating obscenity' because she decided to wear a short skirt, even though I disagree with wearing short skirts myself. Most adults have the intelligence and the discipline to know right from wrong and not to let others' wardrobes affect their thinking and actions.

I didn't chide anyone sister; I was responding to a previous post that I believed was derogatory toward Muslim women in the West. If people think it's ok to marry children, fine, that's their problem. I just don't agree with it, and the only reason I even mentioned it is because someone felt the need to harp on how he'd rather marry 'girls from back home'. I personally feel that this is one of the main reasons why, and I said so. For me, 'home' is the United States of America. I'm proud of that fact and I'm proud of my culture. I don't have a problem with others' cultural practices. I just don't think it's ok to put down Muslim women in the West as if women in Eastern cultures are somehow
superior or more pious, when only Allah Ta'ala knows the level of taqwa a person holds.

[vermeersch]

Where did you get this idea oppressive governments and men are forcing hijaab upon women? A case of CNN syndrome perhaps.Try wandering around in some "Muslim" countries with your hair uncovered, and then tell us about it.

[vermeersch]

My 'idea' of oppressive governments and men are forcing hijab upon women? It has nothing to do with CNN and everything to do with talking to people from Saudi Arabia, from Afghanistan, etc. It's the law in KSA sister, for women to wear the hijab and abaya. This isn't my opinion it's fact. I have a close friend, a sister whose family is from Afghanistan, and she said that men harassed her on the street when she went there because she wasn't wearing the burqa, even though she wore niqab and abaya. I personally know people who are forced to wear hijab by their families, and they take it off after they leave the home. Perhaps you and I wear hijab for the right reasons, sister, but there are millions of Muslim women the world over who don't have a choice in the matter. Even in so-called 'secular' countries, they are forced by societal pressure to wear hijab. I've heard stories of women in Alexandria, Egypt, who are harassed in the streets, even while wearing modest clothing, because they don't cover their hair. I think that we need to stop pretending as if Muslim societies are perfect and acknowledge that these things do happen, that women are being oppressed, and stop blaming 'Western propaganda'..A very accurate description of a very difficult situation.

Thank you.

[AbuMubarak]

hijab, or proper covering, must be enforced

its part of enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong

changing a wrong with your hands

if you want to walk around topless in kafir countries, you get arrested, there is no freedom to go topless

well in islam, our standard is stricter than that, so we abide by it

and regarding forcing people to wear hijab in the west? how about peer pressure and societal pressure to NOT wear clothing, whether hijab or even something modest

try shopping for a young teen these days and see the types of outfits that are sold.........shameful, in a shameless society

[vermeersch]

hijab, or proper covering, must be enforcedSo much for women adopting hijab without being forced.

CNN was right : thanks for that.

[Asma-SE]

In fact, nowhere in the Qur'an does it command a woman to cover her hair; it referred specifically to the bosom. The ayat that references the head-covering doesn't tell women that they have to wear a head-covering. It was a commandment to women of the time, who happened to wear it as part of their culture. The commandment was for these women to cover their bosoms. Now, Sunnah, of course, takes it further. (When the word 'hijab' was mentioned in the Qur'an it was referring to a curtain.)


What are you talking about sister? You are totally incorrect and your lack of konwledge regarding Hijab is painful:torture:

[sis_niqabi]

Try wandering around in some "Muslim" countries with your hair uncovered, and then tell us about it.

i think the sister was right you do have a case of CNN syndrome. i live in muslim country right now. and i can tell you that that walking around with no hijab is perfectly acceptable. i live in qatar(which is right next to saudi arabia) and there are tons of women here who go out of the house with mini skirts,short shorts and tube tops and are free to do so.
even i use to not wear proper hijab when i was in high school and it was no problem walking around in public like that.

even in some parts of saudi now women are allowed to go hijab free now.

[vermeersch]

i think the sister was right you do have a case of CNN syndrome. i live in muslim country right now. and i can tell you that that walking around with no hijab is perfectly acceptable. i live in qatar(which is right next to saudi arabia) and there are tons of women here who go out of the house with mini skirts,short shorts and tube tops and are free to do so.
even i use to not wear proper hijab when i was in high school and it was no problem walking around in public like that.

even in some parts of saudi now women are allowed to go hijab free now.Thanks for this.

Why did I write "some" Muslim countries and not "all" Muslim countries ?

Perhaps, there is a reason. Think about it.

[vermeersch]

What are you talking about sister? You are totally incorrect and your lack of konwledge regarding Hijab is painful:torture:Quran, 024.031:

YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, etc

PICKTHAL: And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers etc

SHAKIR: And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, etc

Yep, the main concern seems to be about the bosom.

Why this insistence about the hair ?

[GothiKa]

The verse says to extend/draw the veils so as to cover the bosom. Implicit in this statement is the fact that the covering of the veil originates from the head.

[vermeersch]

The verse says to extend/draw the veils so as to cover the bosom. Implicit in this statement is the fact that the covering of the veil originates from the head.Yes, but the hair is not mentioned, and it's not mentioned that these veils should cover the hair completely.

[Abu Mus'ab]

In fact, nowhere in the Qur'an does it command a woman to cover her hair; it referred specifically to the bosom. The ayat that references the head-covering doesn't tell women that they have to wear a head-covering. It was a commandment to women of the time, who happened to wear it as part of their culture. The commandment was for these women to cover their bosoms. Now, Sunnah, of course, takes it further. (When the word 'hijab' was mentioned in the Qur'an it was referring to a curtain.)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading that.

Firstly 'hijab' doesn't mean a headscarf.

Secondly your whole post is so flawed that it'd just be a waste of time to pick it apart.

I hope you know that there is more than just one ayah of hijab in the qur'an right?

The one you're referring to is 24:31, the other one is 33:59.

And just for your imformation, hijab is a synonym for burqa (if you don't know what that is then ask a sister to explain it to you), oh and not to forget khimaar is a synonym for hijab/burqa as well.

What's the relevance of that to this subject you ask? well that's simple, the ayah you're quoting says, wa qul lil mu'minaati yaghdhudhna min absaarihnna wa ya7fazna furoojahunna wa laa yubdeena zeenatahunna illa maa zhahara minhaa wal yadhribna bi khumurihinna 3ala juyubihinna..., khumur is the plural form of khimaar.

Now once you get your understanding of hijab right, everything will fall in place.

As for 33:59, you'll notice the word used in that ayah is "jalaabeeb, which is the plural of jilbaab, it doesn't say jeans or pants or shirk etc, it says jilbaab, so hopefully you aren't contradicting this ayah, especially you since you wanted to play word games by saying hijab is only used to refer to a curtain.

And one more thing concerns me, are you saying the headscarf is not needed since it didn't come from the qur'an? are you a hadith rejector?

and last but not least, if you say the command was for the women of that time only then don't call yourself a muslim, because Allah says the ayah is for believing women, so the only way for it to not refer to a person is if they are not a believer, it's common sense.

[Abu Mus'ab]

Yes, but the hair is not mentioned, and it's not mentioned that these veils should cover the hair completely.

yay a kaafir wants to teach us islam :rolleyes:

I don't tell you how to do your ancestor worship so don't try to tell me what islam says.

[AbuMubarak]

you mozlems are too funny

i saw a jewish woman today

she had a little doillie on the back of her head

i asked why?

she said, because God says that they must cover their hair

so i propose, as part of the "united muslims for the reformation of islam up to the 21st century", that muslim sisters can just wear doillies on the top of their head

this way, they can conform to "covering their hair" and they can be part of the 21st century

see pic
http://www.zionjudaica.com/productimages/BOWCOMB-T.jpg

[AbuMubarak]

please excuse the zion part of the link

though it is of those who are cursed by Allah for their disobedience to Allah, we are only fulfilling the hadith where the muslims would follow the jews and christians in their disobedience to Allah, so that if a jew climbed into a lizards hole, so shall a muslim

and this KhalisahdaGreat (http://ummah.com/forum/member.php?u=17648), i would like to take this time to welcome you to the United Muslims for the Reformation of Islam into the 21st Century..........we need more people like you,

we have some other members here at ummah.com, but because this place is being run over by fundies, its best us reformers do not expose ourselves outright

but you are surely earmarked for reformation leadership..........i cant wait till we have our first meeting at Our Lady the Saint Church

[KhalisahdaGreat]

What are you talking about sister? You are totally incorrect and your lack of konwledge regarding Hijab is painful:torture:

Prove that I"m 'incorrect'. Otherwise don't say so.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

i think the sister was right you do have a case of CNN syndrome. i live in muslim country right now. and i can tell you that that walking around with no hijab is perfectly acceptable. i live in qatar(which is right next to saudi arabia) and there are tons of women here who go out of the house with mini skirts,short shorts and tube tops and are free to do so.
even i use to not wear proper hijab when i was in high school and it was no problem walking around in public like that.

even in some parts of saudi now women are allowed to go hijab free now.

That's funny, considering the fact that I don't watch CNN. :D You live in QATAR, not Saudi Arabia. I never said EVERY MUSLIM COUNTRY. Man people get so defensive when faced with truths they don't like.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry after reading that.

Firstly 'hijab' doesn't mean a headscarf.

Secondly your whole post is so flawed that it'd just be a waste of time to pick it apart.

I hope you know that there is more than just one ayah of hijab in the qur'an right?

The one you're referring to is 24:31, the other one is 33:59.

And just for your imformation, hijab is a synonym for burqa (if you don't know what that is then ask a sister to explain it to you), oh and not to forget khimaar is a synonym for hijab/burqa as well.

What's the relevance of that to this subject you ask? well that's simple, the ayah you're quoting says, wa qul lil mu'minaati yaghdhudhna min absaarihnna wa ya7fazna furoojahunna wa laa yubdeena zeenatahunna illa maa zhahara minhaa wal yadhribna bi khumurihinna 3ala juyubihinna..., khumur is the plural form of khimaar.

Now once you get your understanding of hijab right, everything will fall in place.

As for 33:59, you'll notice the word used in that ayah is "jalaabeeb, which is the plural of jilbaab, it doesn't say jeans or pants or shirk etc, it says jilbaab, so hopefully you aren't contradicting this ayah, especially you since you wanted to play word games by saying hijab is only used to refer to a curtain.

And one more thing concerns me, are you saying the headscarf is not needed since it didn't come from the qur'an? are you a hadith rejector?

and last but not least, if you say the command was for the women of that time only then don't call yourself a muslim, because Allah says the ayah is for believing women, so the only way for it to not refer to a person is if they are not a believer, it's common sense.

Actually, ALL the words you mention refer to a covering. The word 'hijab' in the Qur'an, whenever it's mentioned, doesn't refer to a head covering or clothing at all. I know very well what the words mean bro so don't patronise me. Thank you for posting this ayat because you prove my point actually. When clothing is mentioned, the word 'hijab' isn't used at all. The head-covering that women wore was called 'khimar', and NO WHERE in the Qur'an does it say that it's compulsory. The only reason that it's mentioned at all, as I said before, is because women happened to wear a khimar back then, and Allah Ta'ala was telling the believing women to cover their bosoms, as they used to wear their khimars behind the back, leaving the bosoms exposed. NO WHERE does it tell women, 'Make sure the hair is covered, and the bosoms.' Same with jilbab; it was mentioned because THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WORE BACK THEN. If Allah Ta'ala had said, "Tell the believers to stay away from those jeans!" then no one would have known what the hell he was talking about. The general message is, "Dress modestly" in the Qur'an.

[KhalisahdaGreat]

please excuse the zion part of the link

though it is of those who are cursed by Allah for their disobedience to Allah, we are only fulfilling the hadith where the muslims would follow the jews and christians in their disobedience to Allah, so that if a jew climbed into a lizards hole, so shall a muslim

and this KhalisahdaGreat (http://ummah.com/forum/member.php?u=17648), i would like to take this time to welcome you to the United Muslims for the Reformation of Islam into the 21st Century..........we need more people like you,

we have some other members here at ummah.com, but because this place is being run over by fundies, its best us reformers do not expose ourselves outright

but you are surely earmarked for reformation leadership..........i cant wait till we have our first meeting at Our Lady the Saint Church

Thanks! -pray: Yeah, I noticed that there are quite a few extremists here. I don't let it get to me though; I like to spar with them because I can back up my talk.

[Abu Mus'ab]

Thanks! -pray: Yeah, I noticed that there are quite a few extremists here. I don't let it get to me though; I like to spar with them because I can back up my talk.
bwahahahahahahahaha :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Al-Farooq]

bwahahahahahahahaha :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Could I just add.....

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:: rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Fantastic!!! :D

[Abu Mus'ab]

Actually, ALL the words you mention refer to a covering. The word 'hijab' in the Qur'an, whenever it's mentioned, doesn't refer to a head covering or clothing at all. I know very well what the words mean bro so don't patronise me. Thank you for posting this ayat because you prove my point actually. When clothing is mentioned, the word 'hijab' isn't used at all. The head-covering that women wore was called 'khimar', and NO WHERE in the Qur'an does it say that it's compulsory. The only reason that it's mentioned at all, as I said before, is because women happened to wear a khimar back then, and Allah Ta'ala was telling the believing women to cover their bosoms, as they used to wear their khimars behind the back, leaving the bosoms exposed. NO WHERE does it tell women, 'Make sure the hair is covered, and the bosoms.' Same with jilbab; it was mentioned because THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WORE BACK THEN. If Allah Ta'ala had said, "Tell the believers to stay away from those jeans!" then no one would have known what the hell he was talking about. The general message is, "Dress modestly" in the Qur'an.
Are you an amina wadud wannabe?

Spare me your so called explanation, because it's laughable to be honest, you know nothing about arab culture and even less about islam.

[AbuMubarak]

abu musab

you aint nuttin but a fundie

now we have khalisa who will show us the right way

i know what you are going to say, what about the sunnah and the practice of the wives of the Prophet and those around him...........well, lets hear what khalisa has to say about that

just think about it, we can start to live in the 21st century with the rest of the world

[KhalisahdaGreat]

bwahahahahahahahaha :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah my sentiments exactly but I'm not laughing WITH you.

[MMS]

you mozlems are too funny

i saw a jewish woman today

she had a little doillie on the back of her head

i asked why?

she said, because God says that they must cover their hair

so i propose, as part of the "united muslims for the reformation of islam up to the 21st century", that muslim sisters can just wear doillies on the top of their head

this way, they can conform to "covering their hair" and they can be part of the 21st century

see pic
http://www.zionjudaica.com/productimages/BOWCOMB-T.jpg

lol most jewish women just wear a wig over their hair to cover them :smack:

[AbuMubarak]

this is going to be great, i can see it now

we can sell tickets

wait till i tell marge and the kids............we gonna be rich

[KhalisahdaGreat]

Are you an amina wadud wannabe?

Spare me your so called explanation, because it's laughable to be honest, you know nothing about arab culture and even less about islam.

I wasn't going to give an explanation. I'm done with the argument bro because we aren't going to agree so khalas. I don't want to be like anyone but myself, although I believe that Amina Wadud is a fine woman. To you be your Way, and to me mine.

[AbuMubarak]

lol most jewish women just wear a wig over their hair to cover them :smack:mms