My dad making excuses for not passing the talaq certificate over to my so called wife

[dawah786]

Salaam to everyone, I am posting this thread for a brother who is in a dilemma and is wishing to seek your advice.

Basically the brother was married to his mum niece who happens to be from pakistan, the situation on how the marriage took place is somewhat debateable as the marriage took place over the phone with him being in england and the wife being in pakistan, all the brother did was give his permission to the imam for his father to give consent to the marriage as his family was over there. Anyway the wife came out on the younger brothers name as the brother himself did not agree to the marriage. the wife came out but the couple did not consumate the marriage as the brother felt she was not really his wife. Within the first month of the wife being here in England, the brother was given an ultimate by his mum either to accept the marriage or to leave, so his mum kicked him out.
So its been three years since he has been kicked out, mahshallah he has
done well seeing as he was practically living rough when he got kicked out, now the situation is the brother wishes to ask for the hand of a sister whom he wishes to marry but is worried that the sister family would ask his family about him, and his mum still tells everyone that he is living at home happily married to his wife, supposedly she is saying this to keep the izzat (honour) in front of the family/relatives/friends, although when the brother is approached by relatives he states the truth. So the brother decided on giving the wife a talaq seeing as there was no future as the wife family back home have already made plans that once she gets her visa they have intention to marry her to someone else. so he went to see his dad and his dad was fine about it at the time but then later stated to hold on until his mum (brother mum) gets back from pakistan as she went on a holiday for a month, so he agreed. The mum arrived back about a month and a half ago, the brother went to see a local imam and the imam said that the marriage was invalid overall, although some hadiths state the marriage was valid but the imam gave the brother a talaq certificate so he can give this to the wife making it offical that he no longer has any relations with her. The father found out and he said to pass the certificate over to him as he will end the matter seeing as the son was not present in the marriage in the first place it was the father who gave consent. Its been a month and a half the brother thought everything would be over but he rang his dad to find out how matters went and his dad said he hasn't given her the talaq certificate yet as his mum (brother mum) is not feeling so well, but the brother thought how could this be as its only this morning that he was told that his mum has gone to a wedding cermony. Now he thinks his father is dragging the case on as they will probably hand the document over to her next year sometime when she gets her visa, hence its fits in with their time schedule as they planning on getting the wife a talaq anyway so she can move on with her life to marry whom her family wishes but for next year.

Now I advised the brother to take an imam down to the house and do it properley rather than relying on everyone else. Also the family want the talaq to be hidden away from the relatives, hence they will not announce it to anyone that the talaq has taken place until next year when its fits in the right time for her to move on.

What can you advise?

[AbuMubarak]

i advise you to find a scholar, either in person or online

[Medievalist]

The brothers a number one coward for agreeing to the marriage in the first and not intending to shoulder the responsibilities. He's ruined his cousins life and brought shame and heartache for his mother. My advice is for him to grow a spine first and foremost.

Secondly if he has given her 3 divorces, then the appearance or disappearance of the certificate doesnt mean anything. He's given the irrevocable divorce. I dont know what other advice to give cos in all honesty the guys a muppet and his mum was right for booting him out.

[dawah786]

The brothers a number one coward for agreeing to the marriage in the first and not intending to shoulder the responsibilities. He's ruined his cousins life and brought shame and heartache for his mother. My advice is for him to grow a spine first and foremost.

Secondly if he has given her 3 divorces, then the appearance or disappearance of the certificate doesnt mean anything. He's given the irrevocable divorce. I dont know what other advice to give cos in all honesty the guys a muppet and his mum was right for booting him out.

The brother made it clear since the age of 10 when his family got him engaged to her that he did wish to marry the neice but the family never gave up even though he got the MP'S involved as they stop him from leaving the country so tha marriage doesn't take place so in the end his mum got the brother uncle who is about 6ft5inch tall, to make sure the son was by the phone so that the marriage did take place with or without him being happy to it.
As for the talaq he hasn't verbally said anything to her yet as the father said the talaq certificate should be sufficient for the talaq to occur and his father wanted to be to one to do it (tell the wife its over) he didnt want the son to do it

[Medievalist]

In regards the talaq and all that you should tell the bro to go to an alim and ask them.

I dont really know what to say tbh so aint gonna say much more. They need ulama to guide them. If the man hasnt give 3 talaq then I wanna know what is so wrong with the wife that he is willing to be kicked outta the house? If its just out of stubbornes then he needs to re-evaluate. If he's half decent and she's half decent, then marital life can be a breeze. he should seriously consider it. if she's from back home then she'll more than likely be good for him, tbh he just sounds in the wrong to me.

[dawah786]

Brother it is no joke and neither its a scene out of a movie, please provide genuine advise

[Medievalist]

dawah - btw I'd advise him to go to another alim and not the imam who's dishing out talaq certificates like they 2 pound chicken n chips **roll eyes**

[dawah786]

dawah - btw I'd advise him to go to another alim and not the imam who's dishing out talaq certificates like they 2 pound chicken n chips **roll eyes**

Lol, the imam was very reluctant on giving him the talaq certificate as he believd there was no basis for a marriage to have occured, so in the end he gave him the talaq certficate on the basis I think to make it offical that he has no ties to her although his family tells everyone that it is his wife so I also think its in order to overcome what they state as well

[Medievalist]

Lol, the imam was very reluctant on giving him the talaq certificate as he believd there was no basis for a marriage to have occured, so in the end he gave him the talaq certficate on the basis I think to make it offical that he has no ties to her although his family tells everyone that it is his wife so I also think its in order to overcome what they state as well

if he agreed to the marriage, then his dad was acting as his proxy, the nikah should stand. Im pretty sure the Mawlana in pakistan who did the nikah wouldnt have fulfilled the conditions. Is this Imam a proper alim?

Hassnet: got a surprise for you bro :up:

[dawah786]

if he agreed to the marriage, then his dad was acting as his proxy, the nikah should stand. Im pretty sure the Mawlana in pakistan who did the nikah wouldnt have fulfilled the conditions. Is this Imam a proper alim?

Hassnet: got a surprise for you bro :up:

Yes the imam who the brother went to is a proper alim but Im not sure about the one in pakistan as I have no details

[Medievalist]

Yes the imam who the brother went to is a proper alim but Im not sure about the one in pakistan as I have no details

Before giving the divorce certificate (never heard of one of them before tbh) the imam should have discussed with the guys father or someone else who was in pakistan, but ideally the father because he would be able to explain what happened in pakistan.

[dawah786]

Before giving the divorce certificate (never heard of one of them before tbh) the imam should have discussed with the guys father or someone else who was in pakistan, but ideally the father because he would be able to explain what happened in pakistan.

Um I believe the brother knew who was present in pakistan when the marriage took place as he got to view the video they made of it when his parents sent it from pakistan at the time and this was explained to the imam, although if you mean in the sense that the alim should have spoke to the father to confirm information about the imam over there then yeah it would seem right if the alim did speak to the father

[Medievalist]

although if you mean in the sense that the alim should have spoke to the father to confirm information about the imam over there then yeah it would seem right if the alim did speak to the father

yes thats what I mean.

Basically the only advice I've got is for the bro to go to a proper alim, not saying the imam aint a proper alim but he didnt really investigate properly?

because its not even clear if he's married, if he divorced her, if he was ever married. Although Im inclining to believe he was married.

[`asiya]

Um I believe the brother knew who was present in pakistan when the marriage took place as he got to view the video they made of it when his parents sent it from pakistan at the time and this was explained to the imam, although if you mean in the sense that the alim should have spoke to the father to confirm information about the imam over there then yeah it would seem right if the alim did speak to the father

if this bro is in the uk then he can contact http://www.islamic-sharia.org/ they will give him correct islamic advice about his divorce .

but apart from that it doesnt make any difference at all whether he is still married to this pakistani woman or not, he can still go ahead with his new marriage, because islamically he is permitted to have 4 wives anyway. so i would advise him to get married, and not to be bothered with the gossips people who tell lies to cover their so called "honour" because there is no honour in being a liar. may Allah make it easy for him amin.

[Medievalist]

no - he should sort his life out first before dragging another woman into his web.

[`asiya]

no - he should sort his life out first before dragging another woman into his web.

Anyway the wife came out on the younger brothers name as the brother himself did not agree to the marriage.

he didnt agree to the marriage. another matter is if she entered the country and is named as the other brothers wife on a marriage certifcate then technically she is married to his brother and not him anyway because that means that if they both signed the marriage certificate and papers and that makes a marriage . so he can contact islamic shariah council and get some advice about this cant he.

[Medievalist]

Anyway the wife came out on the younger brothers name as the brother himself did not agree to the marriage.

he didnt agree to the marriage. another matter is if she entered the country and is named as the other brothers wife on a marriage certifcate then technically she is married to his brother and not him anyway because that means that if they both signed the marriage certificate and papers and that makes a marriage . so he can contact islamic shariah council and get some advice about this cant he.

The nikah was don with his consent. The grooms father acting as his proxy. Hence the nikah would be with this brother. The girl appears to have been called as the brother-in-laws wife but that doesnt sever the original nikah. Even if a new nikah was read it would be irrelevant because the woman is in the first brothers nikah.

the signing of marriage contract after the ladies nikah with the first brother is irrelevant. A woman cannot have two husbands, the first nikah stands.

[dawah786]

Anyway the wife came out on the younger brothers name as the brother himself did not agree to the marriage.

he didnt agree to the marriage. another matter is if she entered the country and is named as the other brothers wife on a marriage certifcate then technically she is married to his brother and not him anyway because that means that if they both signed the marriage certificate and papers and that makes a marriage . so he can contact islamic shariah council and get some advice about this cant he.

Legally she is married to the brother younger brother but islamically they used the younger brother original islamic nikkah certificate to his own real wife to get the girl from back home out to England, they did this by omitting the real wife name and signature and then wrote the neice name and even took photos together as bride and groom to convince the british embassy that the marriage was genuine. So now the girl from back home, the neice is only here to get her visa and has intention to marry someone else. Twisted story

[dawah786]

The nikah was don with his consent. The grooms father acting as his proxy. Hence the nikah would be with this brother. The girl appears to have been called as the brother-in-laws wife but that doesnt sever the original nikah. Even if a new nikah was read it would be irrelevant because the woman is in the first brothers nikah.

the signing of marriage contract after the ladies nikah with the first brother is irrelevant. A woman cannot have two husbands, the first nikah stands.

There was no nikkah papers when the marriage took place over the phone with the brother and the girl from back home, only verbal exchange of words were given and that was the brother giving consent to the mowlana for his father to act on his behalf, thats it.

[`asiya]

Legally she is married to the brother younger brother but islamically they used the younger brother original islamic nikkah certificate to his own real wife to get the girl from back home out to England, they did this by omitting the real wife name and signature and then wrote the neice name and even took photos together as bride and groom to convince the british embassy that the marriage was genuine. So now the girl from back home, the neice is only here to get her visa and has intention to marry someone else. Twisted story

:rubeyes: what a mess how terrible that people will lie and cheat like that just to get into a country, especially using his brothers name .. that is not at all permissible in Islam to lie in a contract wether a marriage contract or a contract to enter a country, seriously get the brother to contact the imams at the adress i gave u, u can speak to them on the phone, they will sort out everything for u in person, contact the other parties etc, masha Allah they are very helpful i have dealt with them myself and they gave me sound islamic advice masha Allah.

[angel*]

Legally she is married to the brother younger brother but islamically they used the younger brother original islamic nikkah certificate to his own real wife to get the girl from back home out to England, they did this by omitting the real wife name and signature and then wrote the neice name and even took photos together as bride and groom to convince the british embassy that the marriage was genuine. So now the girl from back home, the neice is only here to get her visa and has intention to marry someone else. Twisted story

That about sme's it up - I agree with Med though o this one, he needs to sort put his atm personal problems with his 'wife' and faily bfore even thinking about marrying again-.

[Treasured Soul]

From what I gather from the first post ... the brother has fixed the mess on his part ...

If there was even a marriage, he's gotten a divorce certificate ...

The only mess i see is between the niece and lil bro ... are they married :confused


As for the bro in question and his dilemma with parents/culture/society ...

If i were in the bros shoes ... his family are already thinking about getting the divorce etc. Its just a matter of time for them ...

I would leave them to it .. he's handed in the certificate ... now its the fathers responsibility ...

IF the bro wants to make it all clear with his family and community, then he should get the imaam that gave the divorce certificate and two other member of the family that hold some kind of authority within the family and talk it out with his parents ... let them know the divorce has been issiued and that u plan on moving on with ur life ... thats if he wants to go to that extreme ... cuz it can be shameful for the family .. i dunno, i guess it depends what kind of background u come from ...

Or he could just go and ask for the sis hand and IF the past comes up and they dont believe him, i.e. that he's not issued a divorce cuz community are saying other things, then u could always ask the imaam that gave the diovrce to have a word with them?

did the imaam not give out two certifictaes? one for his records and other for hers?

[dawah786]

From what I gather from the first post ... the brother has fixed the mess on his part ...

If there was even a marriage, he's gotten a divorce certificate ...

The only mess i see is between the niece and lil bro ... are they married :confused


As for the bro in question and his dilemma with parents/culture/society ...

If i were in the bros shoes ... his family are already thinking about getting the divorce etc. Its just a matter of time for them ...

I would leave them to it .. he's handed in the certificate ... now its the fathers responsibility ...

IF the bro wants to make it all clear with his family and community, then he should get the imaam that gave the divorce certificate and two other member of the family that hold some kind of authority within the family and talk it out with his parents ... let them know the divorce has been issiued and that u plan on moving on with ur life ... thats if he wants to go to that extreme ... cuz it can be shameful for the family .. i dunno, i guess it depends what kind of background u come from ...

Or he could just go and ask for the sis hand and IF the past comes up and they dont believe him, i.e. that he's not issued a divorce cuz community are saying other things, then u could always ask the imaam that gave the diovrce to have a word with them?

did the imaam not give out two certifictaes? one for his records and other for hers?

yes the imam gave him two copies, one for the girl and one for himself but the dilemma is the father who has got one copy isn't actually giving the girl her copy so the talaq doesn't happen until she receives the copy, hence the father is now giving excuses to prolong the matter, so the brother wants advise as to what to do?

[angel*]

yes the imam gave him two copies, one for the girl and one for himself but the dilemma is the father who has got one copy isn't actually giving the girl her copy so the talaq doesn't happen until she receives the copy, hence the father is now giving excuses to prolong the matter, so the brother wants advise as to what to do?

why dosnt he go to the girl and show her his copy 2 kinda make it offical 2 her that its over and ask her 2 ask for her own one from the 'father'?

[dawah786]

why dosnt he go to the girl and show her his copy 2 kinda make it offical 2 her that its over and ask her 2 ask for her own one from the 'father'?

Well thats what he wanted to do but then reconsidered as the father wanted him to wait till the mother is better, but the brother knows his mum is well, so if he was do this as suggested above his father may disown as this was what was said previously by his father when the brother was originally going to do it when his mum was in pakistan but then got told by the father to wait till the mum gets back and now she back, the first week she was back the brother was told its not the right time as the mother received some news about a death in the extended family, then he reapproached the situation two weeks later and was told to hand the document to his father and now hes been told that the document has not been given as the brother mum is not well

[`asiya]

Well thats what he wanted to do but then reconsidered as the father wanted him to wait till the mother is better, but the brother knows his mum is well, so if he was do this as suggested above his father may disown as this was what was said previously by his father when the brother was originally going to do it when his mum was in pakistan but then got told by the father to wait till the mum gets back and now she back, the first week she was back the brother was told its not the right time as the mother received some news about a death in the extended family, then he reapproached the situation two weeks later and was told to hand the document to his father and now hes been told that the document has not been given as the brother mum is not well

why does he just speak to the woman he was supposed to have married and say i divorce u, job done then, because this all sounds like a load of excuses the family are making.

[dawah786]

why does he just speak to the woman he was supposed to have married and say i divorce u, job done then, because this all sounds like a load of excuses the family are making.

with doing that comes along the worry that his father may disown him, may be for not doing it his way

[`asiya]

with doing that comes along the worry that his father may disown him, may be for not doing it his way

the father knows he is already divorced, and the imam ruled this marriage wasnt even valid in the first place. all a man needs to do to divorce his wife is say he divorces her in front of two witnesses, and khalass he is divorced.its not difficult.

i dunno bro i thought the family already disowned him, they got over it, all this just sounds like the usual emotional blackmail common in certain cultures which they use against their own children to get what they want. its opressive and nothing to do with islam and they should fear Allah, like i said get advice from

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

[dawah786]

the father knows he is already divorced, and the imam ruled this marriage wasnt even valid in the first place. all a man needs to do to divorce his wife is say he divorces her in front of two witnesses, and khalass he is divorced.its not difficult.

i dunno bro i thought the family already disowned him, they got over it, all this just sounds like the usual emotional blackmail common in certain cultures which they use against their own children to get what they want. its opressive and nothing to do with islam and they should fear Allah, like i said get advice from

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

His family did disown him when he got kicked out but then his father built bridges and made up with him about a year ago, and yeah it is the typical blackmail situation which is why I advised send an imam down to the house that way they can't dodge the issue

[`asiya]

His family did disown him when he got kicked out but then his father built bridges and made up with him about a year ago, and yeah it is the typical blackmail situation which is why I advised send an imam down to the house that way they can't dodge the issue

sounds like the best thing insha Allah may Allah make it easy for him and guide his family amin!!

[Medievalist]

Its irrelevant whether the girl hears the divorce or recieves the certificate. If the man has divorced her, he has divorced. The woman is irrelevent in that sense. So the father hiding the certificate or destroying it doesnt mean anything at all. If a man divorces his wife and there is no1 else there, even then the divorce is nafiz.

[dawah786]

Its irrelevant whether the girl hears the divorce or recieves the certificate. If the man has divorced her, he has divorced. The woman is irrelevent in that sense. So the father hiding the certificate or destroying it doesnt mean anything at all. If a man divorces his wife and there is no1 else there, even then the divorce is nafiz.

Valid point but doesn't the girl need to know that her husband has divorced her as he hasn't said it to her verbally, he just produced the certificate thinking at the time that would be sufficient once she receives it

[Medievalist]

Obviously the woman needs to be told, but what I was saying is that its not a condition for a divorce for the woman to hear it. Obviously you dont divorce a woman and not tell her, thats just retarded.

[in_exile]

i agree with med, there is nothing else to do he has divorced his wife, the marriage was valid via proxy ...

and just to say a beating is no excuse for a man to marry a woman he does not intend to stay with... he should have just took the beating

[Medievalist]

i agree with med, there is nothing else to do he has divorced his wife, the marriage was valid via proxy ...

and just to say a beating is no excuse for a man to marry a woman he does not intend to stay with... he should have just took the beating

mashaALLAH. the brother has grown wise.

[neelu]

I'm sure this story has been posted before several months ago. I feel so sorry for the bro trying to practise Islam as best he can and being auctioned off into an unwanted marriage by his parents as if he were cattle. I think the bro should keep a copy of the talaq certificate himself and keep it well hidden so his family don't know where to find it. If the imam knows the whole story he wouldn't hesitate to reissue or give another copy of the certificate to him inshallah.

I think he should find a way of contacting his so called 'wife' directly and telling her that he has divorced her and even had a talaq certificate issued for this purpose but his father is witholding it from her possibly with the intention of giving it to her at a later date in time for her visa to be validated. If she doesn't know already (most likely she does know), he should tell her that he was forced into this situation and didn't mean for her to get dragged into all this. What happens next is up to her; she can withold the information of that phone call so that her visa process can go through and she can marry another person and move on OR she can shout from the rooftops that she has been abandoned by him and kick up a fuss to annoy and emotionally blackmail his parents and ruin their fake sense of "izzat" (if that's even the right word for it@)) which would cause them to be angry with him for a while but at the same time force them to face the community with the fact that he really isn't with his mum's neice so they're unable to pretend about it anymore. It will be VERY hard to go through this sort of upset with the family but inshallah with time they will learn to accept change (and if they don't learn then family or not, they're too steeped in jahiliya to be worth keeping ties with anyway).

He should inshallah get his marriage arranged to this other sister whom he is interested in and if her family ask any questions about his past, he can explain the situation, get the imam to explain the situation (as back up) and if they insist that he should prove he has no ties with the so called 'wife' then he can show THEM the copy of the divorce certificate. He also needs to let the girl know what kind of rumours and trouble his family would cause to prevent him from getting married because they'd do it to get their own back for him disobeying them.


and just to say a beating is no excuse for a man to marry a woman he does not intend to stay with... he should have just took the beating

Er, that's easier said than done!:rubeyes: Besides, forced marriages are haraam and invalid from an Islamic perspective, whether it is the man who is forced or the woman.

[in_exile]

Er, that's easier said than done!:rubeyes: Besides, forced marriages are haraam and invalid from an Islamic perspective, whether it is the man who is forced or the woman.

everything is easier said that done, but the truth is if you say to a girl either you accept or get a beating then that can be treated as really a forced marriage... but for a guy, the threat of violence? is that enough to say it was forced?? i mean if they'd broken his arm or beat him down then i can understand, but just to have his uncle stand next to him.... thats not much force used...

[heba.m]

salaam
if a girl received the paper & sighned it then we can say divorce has done
heba